Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken loans. Thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine, nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty hi, I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and with over thirty thirty law,

told radio you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, So to true murders is brought to you by audible. The worlds, leading name in digital audio books, the

and it from in the Tory is Carney family hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate. All the concentration in conditions, because, like license in all fifty states and with over thirty thirty Grady Stiles June, we are traded on the deformity that gave his hands and feet the look of lobster claws to achieve fame as the lobster boy in November, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two neighbor Christopher Wyant it a conspiracy. Tiles, wife and stepson shots? house in the head leading one of the most bizarre trials in criminal history. The book that we're featuring this evening is lobster boy

way. The bizarre life and brutal death of Grady Stiles Junior, with my special guest investigative journalist and author Fred rose and welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Fred Rosen. Always a pleasure to be with you hide, and how are you great how you doing Fred? Well, it's it's! It's always a pleasure to be with Dan. The man well thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to interview Fred Rosen, always busy and always with a great story and a great book and we're going to go backwards in time little bit later on we're going to talk about the latest developments in the Kendrick Johnson case for those people that are dedicated fans of the show. They'll know what we're talking about the wisp in some really interesting. And very well it's beyond, trusting cutting edge programs about current.

Injustice in America and so with Fred Rosen at spearheading the investigation. So, but first, let's go back in time to lobster boy and before we get into this incredible story, It's not everyone knows when Did you write this? When was this book published and when did you write this book red lobster boy Then I'll tell you what happened What happened was as you pointed out. The murder occurs in nineteen ninety two and all must have been about. A later I was in Florida with the person who would eventually become my ex wife. Thank God, and I was going to I was going to Disney World and I picked up the local newspaper. You know in Orlando, and I found out about sh RL that was taking place down it's here, so he was brought candy up and and this the

our trial was woman named Mary Teresa styles, who had Allegedly arranged for the murder of her husband, Grady, Stiles Junior, also known as lobster boy and I got on the phone with my with my editor at that time. At the publishing house I was working for- and I said you know I believe this and I said. There's this woman and she is supposedly killed her husband and he was lobster boy. I said this is got a joke, and he said to me that your next book I said you're kidding. He said no, that's your next book and and that's how I found out about it. And that's how I got the assignment to write the book and- and and so what happened was I got the can't It was unusual, especially compared to today, where I got the contract. Pretty quickly and the next thing you know you know within a couple months, it was

re write of ninety three? I was. I went down to Florida to start investigating. And I landed Halloween night Halloween night, and I I'll never forget this is not the I should put put it in there again I think I to the airport in tampa- and I You know I'm at a light. I look over and next car I see Dracula. I think. He was dressed as Dracula, and I want oh, my god what's going on and then, of course I realize this Halloween and but that was sort of like the harping or things to come. You know and I how it got it working on it. Now, that's a good segue! because the Halloween is appropriate because you're going to a place, that's with a call carnival haven't you described this gibsontown Gibson Gibsonton. If I don't have to write

yeah, Gibson. Ten tell us a little bit about. Tell us about this little Gibson little town. Well, I'll tell you, then it's probably the most unique too. In it. Certainly in the United States, You know. I don't know. If you have anything you know compareable in Canada, but in the? U S, it's weird: you go down to the you know the main you'd go down the yep. This is the main highway and go over a bridge. Next thing. You know you come to a big sign that says the giants camp I swear this. Is the giants can yeah what the heck is this Well, it turns out this was a camp where the giant can't and what was with that in the 1940s. People who really corny gravitated s during the winter they settled in gibsons in south of Tampa, because the weather, the balmy weather in some

and the giant was a giant guy who's, bad animal 78v12. Like that. You know they check Kilo, Neil looks short and he carry the world's only living had girl, an english Tom Brady and I you know I'm going what the heck is, This is about you know, I'm the other investigating murder case and it got damn. It got weird you be whiten around this town, and you see things like water, their walkers three. You know ghosts. Animal oddities you'd see little people and those says they were called. Midgets you'd, see all kinds of carny freaks, It was the weirdest thing and when you went to the Post office, the the counter that they had you had two counters one was for normal.

Wise people and one was for little people. It was the weirdest thing, and then you see all the Carney trucks and things like that. The backyards. And eventually, I wound up going from had lunch at the giants camp, I'm at Jeannie, Tomany the world any living, half girl. She was born with me single lower half of her body. She marry did sure they had kids, wonderful, human being wonderful post. And then, eventually, I found my way to to the to the there we are had lived with his wife, Mary to styles. The carnival was known as the electrified girl, because It was an illusion that was that they did where she would say that she was sitting Share like an electric chair and lightning bolts would come out of her fingers that sort of thing and that

point: she was in jail because she she You can charged with killing Grady your husband and I met Grady Stiles third aka little gravy and then his sister Kathy styles, who also had episode actively, which is The genetic condition that causes the fusing and fingers Kathy with later go on to be on the tv series. Carniv AL is the lobster girl and I met. Mary's of husband have the nice guy in Harry Glenn, Newman and uh. When she married Harry Glenn, Newman Midgetman. They had a son Arreglandome Junior do human blockhead. You can't make this stuff up, which is a person who talents things up his nose, she you know only in the United States, Canada's too civilized for this stuff.

But anyway, that's that's what happened and I let these people and I and I basically interview them and I got their confidence now. How did you announced the the disorder itself again, sorry it's active day actually and what it is. Is it the so it's the genetic disorder that that goes from generation to generation where it causes the fusing of the singers and the stunting growth of the seat, and comes out slightly differently in every generation. What makes this interesting is that, in order to stop it, you have to adopt yet the style family decided not to do that, and so they had. This genetic condition prevailed in the styles family from when President Polk will going back to the eighteen four,

These was president up until the present, and so they continue to procreate for whatever reason I never got into it with the family, but they decided to procreate and the odds were in phase sure of the condition coming out in whatever child was born from this family, except there was one child in the styles family, Donna who did not I had that condition and that created other problems later on down the line. Yeah, let's not jump ahead. There created on a little discussed that, because that they'll be very important as well yeah. This is it's interesting to the talks about. I guess. One of the styles saying the grandfather, I guess saying you know that did he knew that there was a fifty thousand fifty chance and he had said that to the family all with pride that you know he about a fifty and fifty chance of getting it. So For whatever reason it for those who didn't see,

photo or don't get to see the photos that were posted on for the show description. Its interest that the hands are then have a claw actual like a lobster claw, but just for people to know that it's right past the knee, so it doesn't the lobster boy. They really have lakes, so maybe you can describe that it is pretty much set it in terms of the. What happens is the The condition comes out differently in every generation, so in Grady's case greatest falls junior. He had regular arms that ended with the best way of describing it would be, if you think, of Mister Spock, you know putting the Vulcan symbol up which actually is is is is is based on actual, actually Ebay.

On on on a jewish symbol that Leonard Nimoy Port to the table. But if you think about the you know the the the four fingers, you know separating I'm doing it right now, that's pretty much the way that the cause looked and it in terms of in Grady's case and in most instances the condition in terms of the legs would come out. We're up right below the knee there's nothing else. You just have again a fusion of the bones and the flash cetera cetera, and so as a result, people who suffer from this condition wind up living rather yes, living with wheelchairs, so

to get them around, however, is this is very important, however, because of the fact they have this condition: zero. Eight they become so powerful in their upper body that they can. I was going to say locomotive, but there's no such word move around just on the basis of walking around. You know like like, like the champions he does on their hands, and they, come extremely powerful in their upper body, extremely powerful and they are capable of doing every single thing that all of us can do, including shooting a gun which, of course, will become relevant later on. In the interview. Now. This guy is the a carnival life and he he grew up in this as well and then he had

Grady Stiles, or he had a son name Grady as well. And he had so name. So, namely siblings there or the family that he has, that is afflicted with this disorder and then, that's what their life was like in terms of we already that their carnival people, but did Grady Stiles, grew up in this as well and then figured. This was the thing to continue with his family. Yes, yes, he did. What happened was his father, who is known as the lobster man same condition, save situation when Grady was boring, Pitts Burg by the age of six or seven, he was put on the corny stage by his dad and he grew up in the corner and

figured hey man, I got to go through it like if we got to go through it. So when he married Mary, Theresa styles, he had he had a couple. Kids, he had Donna Donna was normal right. I know which you know she she doesn't have. The genetic condition then came Kathy who has the same condition he put Kathy on the stage with him at a very early age and then after Kathy, what occurred was that he divorced great styles and he married a woman named Barbara and he had

another child with her who became, who is known as little Grady though he would be cold, is formal name. Is Grady Stiles, the third? He had the condition, and so eventually you had at one point, you had three three members of lobster: family, Grady, Stiles Junior, greatest solves the third and Kathy on on the platform or stage at the same time, but the kids didn't take to it. The wave that dad did and but he never less. He felt that that was the way to go, and this was how he made his living and he did quite well with it for many many many many years now. What was it like? Growing up for Grady Style, junior? What was it like growing up for him? Like you talk about that, you know. There was sir,

There was fame and he made this adjustment and his father had made the judgment. So it was a family tradition and it became a certain perks, but really describe what that life was really like. Being this free and as a result, what what was his character soon, developing and say teen years, what what was his character I really like, is here is, I like to say was that was the was the top was the flip side of the elephant man? where the elephant man in real life and in the film that MEL Brooks produced was ended. Jewel, who had this freakish appearance. But inside was this where sensitive wonderful, human, being Grady Stiles with the direct opposite? He with he was as freakish on the outside. In his behavior in

many ways as he was in the inside, so he was put on the platform by his dad when he was seven. He wound up growing up with people gawking at him throughout the 1930s forties and into the early 50s, and he got very smart about using this this. What we would now turn a disability to his advantage and so Would appear in the corny and whenever he was off stage, however, he would try to make sure that he wore gloves because he give it away for nothing and he wound up growing up incredibly embittered about his condition. Yay We made a lot of money at it and he also Bk name a life, mostly from most of his life, a life long alcohol. Looking whenever he drank he was incredibly brutal human to those around him. However, when he didn't drink- he was extremely charming. He was

extremely likable and there is still people as we speak, some of whom may be listening. Gibsonton FL really like Grady a heck of a lot except it to his family. This guy was he. He was a piece of crap and he abusive, physically and emotionally to his wife. He was abusive. Emotionally to his children, but as far as I know and the evidence that I was able to come up with. He wasn't physically abusive to them, but he was extremely in all ways to his wife. No, they were married for quite a few years and then, as as her will she left him and divorced him, and this will be at Ford later it when we talk, about this as well, so so she had enough and she left him, but and so then he remarried tell us about this interim period where she live,

Yves Teresa leaves and then Barbara, comes into the picture at tell. He must had charm on a fair amount in that period of time. To me. Yes, what occurs is that is that he he he already has he's living in Pittsburgh. Going to eventually they move too. They were still winter in Gibson's and but for the most part, they're living in Pitts Burg, and what occurs is that his daughter is daughter Donna because it gets to be sixteen years old. Kathy is younger. He still living with with Mary Teresa styles is first wife. Text Donna can't stand what's going on and she's the normal one she wants to get out, so she wanted

get engaged with young man and a great takes exception to this. He feels like she's going to be deserted him and what happens is on her. It's really very tragic on her wedding night or wedding day. Rather, she comes home, they've gone shopping, for it is some you know for her dress and and so forth and she's with her future husband to seventeen and she he goes. He approaches the House by himself and Grady is waiting for him in the parlor of the House, with a rifle and great

with the decks, shot despite the flexion that he grew up with and he killed the guy cold blood, and this is like incredible and Donna wines. It cradling the head of her future and never to be husband, more arms and he dies in her arms bleeding out on the street and the state of.

Any charges Grady, yes, murder and is a trial and eventually he's found guilty, and because the judge takes pity on his condition, it gives him probation and he doesn't go to jail soon after three. So well at that point to LISA has already divorced him. Okay, a letter grade. He is divorced. Her excuse me hi, I'm getting ahead of myself he's living with Barbara Grady, get sort of a second chance after this trial any turns around and starts courting. His first wife Meri to reset again and she decides to go back with so, in other words, after a cold, blooded murder, she decides to go back with him, allegedly because he's so charming and he's starting to pay bills, and she told me all this by the way we we did a tremendous.

Amount of the discussion together, and so he goes back on that and which is sort of weird Becaus between can make this stuff up. Then, while Grady is married to Barbara Mary Teresa winds up marrying measured man that was the same Harry Glenn, Newman Senior, wonderful, human, being great Gaia, love them And he treat her wonderfully, but the have problems with with Midgetman, because she had to do a lot of things for, because of his lack of height. And of course this was a different period of time with little people when I was accepted as they are today and as a result, she divorced him and she goes back with great now How long are we talking about he's she's back married with him and.

You said you had the conversation with her her motivation. Were you did it sound genuine? Did it made sense that it makes sense to you why her motivation for going back, which is sincere. What I love about you, you always ask great questions in the make me think. I'll, be I'll give you the answer that I think you know I didn't put it in the book but I'll. You know I'll, tell you what I think, which is. I think she went back with him, because he was willing to pay the bill And- and it is and also there's no grading grading was one most charming human being seemingly Zakarneh guy Everybody that I met in Gibson, ten with tell me how charming Grady was, and he I think she went back with him- be of the fact he was paying the bills.

I think, there's no question that would love between them and he had a very the magnetic personality I mean to this day. I have met people who, so a great deal on a carnival circuit as lobster boy and it's free, the I will believe action their memories, and I don't think it's just because of of the condition. I think it's because of of Grady's ability as a performer which had something he passed on to his son, and I think that so The answer your question. I think she went back with him a variety of reasons, but I think the dollars and cents is that had a lot to do with it plus the fact I might add that he was sober at this point. He stopped drinking in this new, not not pilot. He was eight at that point. He was

good person right, and so she figured he turned over a week since she went back with him at least that's what she told me right now in this this is one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight. I guess they get remarried from correct and then how long before he is back to his old ways of watching tv his underwear and drinking and smoking and cursing and an abusive pretty quickly. It happened very, very quickly. She winds up getting back with him just about that time and it and the family is, is still Kathy's living with. At that point, it's the family is kuwaiti, Teresa, Kathy, Little Great and Harry Glenn, Newman Junior, who again

The human blockhead who was her son for the marry her marriage to commit. That John had already gotten out of the house as an adult. And married a fella named Joe, and but they all work together in the Carney. So from that period of time, erratic during that period of time. Eighty eight to ninety two Jose new touring throughout the United States and Canada as a unit and Grady which ran something which I found very fascinating, 'cause. I didn't know anything about you know what do I know about the Karneval, I'm from Brooklyn. For God Sakes, you know the carnival with the Brooklyn Dodgers, but that was before my time. Excuse me and I'll. Probably I'm going to I'm going to get a lot of flack for that one. But anyway,

is what happens, is they they tore and grading at the same cold that ten and one I deal with it in the book, a lot which is very interesting. It's like ten show ten shows or illusions in one so for the prefer, the price of for whatever price hey. Where you go to the quarry. The solution in. Some of these illusions are pretty damn interesting, like you probably seen some of this stuff on tv and other places like one of them is like with a girl is the coolest current grill it. Yes, exactly the girl turns into the gorilla they had that they had Grady himself on the platform The cat, the animal oddities show, which is run by Kathy and are listen to rail, wonderful guy, a couple of other things, and these are the things you know. This is what attracts people, and

It's a heck of a shot You know we, you know we're going to get you know week. This is open for, of course, Youtube and all that we're going, get anything like that, for you and I might add, they also had to this with uh last season. They went out in nineteen ninety two Grady had a man they now almost who's them English was merman, the magician he did magic and he did the fire eating and they really really tight together and he would later become very crucial in terms giving me information about Grady's of background so had all these things going down- and you know, is I'm discussion, would you right now, I'm sending myself. You know what I wish I'd seen it all this. You know it would be cool stuff. Absolutely now. There is a. We didn't talk about the living arrangements. This is a trailer in this gets in, and

the whole family, doesn't live into one trailer so described the sort of a living arrangements that become important or are important to the story too sure this three trailers is, trailer, and this is on the trailer park? You should do as a community we're because the where it's it's the trailers or on regular street what they would do. They build the trailer and then they build extensions as they made more money, etc, etc. She had. One trailer we're Mary Teresa styles live with Grady and Grady Junior in the back was another trailer. We're Kathy lived with her husband Terelle, an her at that point, our three year old border. I just look this by the way 'cause. I knew we'd be talking at that point. Her three year old daughter. Her name is misty right.

I got twenty three years old so and I can't believe that, but and miss the Miss When the condition came out and misty, it was so bad. I did when I did this and did you the condition was so bad, I feel sold. It he was literally like when you looked at her. She had like a a lobster claw attached to her shoulder. So she, We can actually have a full arm, ok, again, pointing out how it turns out differently. They lived out one trailer, and then there was a third trailer which was like a travel trailer and that's Will they stored the illusions and there was a roustabout name. Marco Eno who lived in that trailer and

You had essentially three trailers on the same property. What's a roast about by the way besides the fact that it's a movie with Elvis Presley, yes, it would have to that- is the dude that would do that, sent the corny they're they're they're, the that a muscle you know they set up. They they set up the the tense. The you know, the the other. The dude steps you might find in the in the the wagon wheel rub Now they're selling food desolate thing: you know that is the guys that move things around yeah. Ok, so tell us what Teresa her state of mind, is here and. Sorry, what is what is your state of mind and what is the sum of the relationships that she is developing here, as she sees this

new marriage of this latest marriage going sour. What would this is great use. Every time he's drinking to be abusive and his calls. Our search should make a detail in the book we are, they will weapons. Really they were very, very hard and important thing to realize is he's not able not the way that we used I turned today he could walk as well as you are. I could on his feet, I'm sorry, but as we as well as you are, I can on our feet. He could walk on his cause and if you got slapped with his claw, you going back against the wall. That's the sort of situation is so he slapping around and he's being very abusive to Teresa, and she decides that So she can't take it anymore. That's what she said at trial.

She claims that she couldn't leave him. She had left him beef. What did she claimed? She could not leave him because it was. She would later claim battered wife. Syndrome, and so what she does is she takes money. That she has gotten through various means, and she He takes one thousand five hundred dollars gives it to her son Harry Glenn, Newman Junior, viewing blockhead, she says: listen, You know, I need some help here to get rid of great and he takes the money and he gives it to a kid who lives in the same trailer park seventeen years Kidney Chris wanted tell him he wants, wants Grady Killed and that's it. You know this is Download, Grady, kill, I'm on my I'm on my stepfather killed and it makes a deal and uh give the kid. The money. It goes out in purchases a gun and then uh

Things happen right after that yeah you. The gun from another kid and their professional real professional hit going on here, yeah. Well, actually he buys the gun. He doesn't buy the gun from a kid. It's actually an adult any prize. It's further s in APOLLO Beach. We again we're on the West Coast of Florida. But any the end, the buys, you know we're not talking to Clint forty four Magnum. You know the most powerful and go in the world? You know what what that piece of crap, I think, was at thirty eight. I can't actually remember it's not a portent, but if buys a piece of crap gone, You know, pays a couple one hundred dollars for that so stupid. Chris is at this point and he gets the gun and he makes the plan to come to the house.

And he's going to kill Grady and at one point there's Some talk between him and Harry. The line moment junior about calling to hit off, but it doesn't happen. He decides they just ate decide to go ahead with it And so there's going to be a murder unless something intervenes, and, of course you know unless it's the movies, that's not going to happen. So what is tell us about the fateful evening itself? What set these set the stage for you know he's in the trailer to Reese's there.

Tell us how they hatch this plan and what goes down and what what their plan is to happen and what does actually happen the plane? What happens? Is this the to reset the sought to research to some lights to leave the trailer, I'm just going to report this and she's in the trailer she will later till the police that she decides to visit, missed the the granddaughter in the other trailer with Kathy, because Misty is not feeling well, and so She decides to leave with Harry Glenn, Newman Junior, her son. However, she leaves Grady the third in the trailer, allegedly asleep in a different room

so now you've got and what so? What occurs? Is this they've watched a video of the Sim Ruby not to be expelled by the way with with Danny I yellow. Playing? Go with his name and here at the end, the two that Lee Harvey Oswald, Oswald Jack, Ruby, so any Aiello is playing Jack, Ruby and watching this film and they leave and Teresa I'm going to go out and visit misty. She leaves with Harry, they go out it going to the uh, trailer with Kathy Kathy on my dad is is what they call, and I did Coke Spirit, which means the state decided not to charge, though

allegedly she had knowledge of what would occur and so Chris, why it comes up to the house this little plan he steals in through the back door of the trailer he comes in to the main room. Grady sitting there watching tv, you he's in a In his underwear, is you point out he's watching Ruby Grady go through that any works around. This is Chris White and he tells him believe. An outback marcolino who's in that other trailers that I described suddenly hears pop pop pop three gunshots. Marcolina runs out flights into the trail, we are Kathy is with with Teresa and uh.

As you know, what's going on here, and they think it's gunshots, and so Marco and uh he he got. He approaches the trailer and he goes into the trailer and he discovers Grady Stiles junior lobster boy slumped over in his chair with free neat bullet holes in the top of his head dead and allegedly still sleeping in the back room is Grady Stiles, the third I'm just reporting something hot out. Or vehicle at, I should have something is in the damn. Yes, it is yes, it is, and now the story gets a little more complicated. Now police are called to the crime scene, and obviously they're doing some questioning. How do they

proceed and what developments happened kind of quickly. Well, it's funny. You were asking this question right now be cause. This is the last time I spoke to the investigating officer. Detective Michael will let Actually he was protective, then eventually retired from the department. As a captain of I haven't spoken to him in about eighteen years, but I'm doing this segment, I'm taping a segment of a tv show, called evil, can about lobster boy at the end of next month so I actually called will let and we got to chat about this. And you know it was like call home week, because we would very friendly is what happens? Please a call, Michael that comes into the trailer. And and what and he looks at

going on and he sees the body slumped forward by that time. The techies are there and He immediately goes what cops are supposed to do, which is says: ok, who would do this and he begins to wonder, Does some preliminary questioning with the family take saying that he has no enemies that Grady has no enemies and it takes them about he and his partner sig cigarette? Oh. Take some about twenty four hours before they double back and they start questioning the family again and that's when they begin to discover Grady's abusive behave,

and it doesn't take them very long to get Harry, Glenn, Newman Junior to tumble and say what really occurred. And once he does that, then they go to Teresa and It isn't a situation where people are saying I didn't do, they rarely admit to it, but Teresa says she was pushed to it, be cause. He was so abusive and at that point She is then charged with murder, Terry Glenn. Newman Junior is charged with murder, the trigger man, Chris Wyant is charged with murder and then it's up to the court system in Hillsborough County flaw. Order. This figure I had to try these individuals and they make a decision to try them all separately

and essentially under well, there will tried it. What happens? Is there a want to try them. They can try it well. They think Try to second degree murder, it's well, some of them. It's like one of them gets home your first one of them gets right this second, you know it's so weird. You know the way the court system works at least here and and that's what occurs. And uh. It doesn't, as I said it take very long for my collective Sigur, about what's going on, but I might say that I think it's an excellent piece of police work because he gets one. Inform on the other and then it becomes of cause celebre or Teresa engages eight.

Attorney. Arni, Levine who's, very big in that area in Tampa, and he decides he's going to use a very, very unique defense, at least for that period God what a syndrome in the case of a contract killing only the fourth time at that point, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, I'm sorry, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, that it is, be used in the United States pretty interesting when you think about it. You know battered wife syndrome in the case of contract, killing and and what follows is a four star? Try, I mean it's, it's a real clinical trials. I make it real corny. What you know what's interesting too, is that we skipped over it. Is that There was so much controversy in this that she did get out on bail temporarily And then you know. So there was enough. I guess you know again

and it wasn't. It wasn't a foregone conclusion. They were putting a lot of weight on this man's law. Or rather than so. She fair, better than the other over two, and so again, thanks to the lawyer for sure so tell us about the Karneval Nate. Fear of the trial. I was cutting my teeth and those It was My second murder case- and it was it was it was it was a big carnival. What occurs is that you have in the court in the visitor. Gallery. Well, actually, no, you did. They were not in the visitor's gallery. What happens? Is it in Florida I don't know any other state, but if you're going to testify in a trial you're not allowed to go into the courtroom.

So, but you have either in or outside the courtroom, depending on what they're going to get cold. This witnesses you got, got Harry Green Newman senior Midgetman he's in his wheelchair you've got Kathy. The daughter she's in a wheelchair, you've got Grady Stiles, the third who is Lee. Grady he's in a wheelchair and, let's see, then you got to rail very who is the husband who ran the animal animal oddity. Show two hours is normal. You had Dana, who is the saddest person in the bunch, because I got to talk to her about how Grady. When I say Grady I mean I mean lobster boy how he is pro fiance back in Pittsburgh and how many years before can so you have all these individuals either inside or outside the courtroom.

Mary and Mary Teresa styles, sitting at the the chance table, Ronnie Lavigne. And uh. What happens is couple of things happen. First, first major thing: happens during which well you've got Midgetman, testifying he. He testifies to Grady's cruelty then you have Grady the third. He gets on the stand, little Grady at that point, seventeen And to show the ability of lobster boy to be abusive physically, he has blue Grady two hand walk in front of the jury, an attic and so the tv

cameras capturing all this and that sort of thing? And it's just about at that point that I get involved directly in the case as a participant. Am I getting ahead of myself? No, no go ahead. He's myself that you go ahead. Wanna go out, Again, ok, yeah, absolutely all right, uh. Okay, here's what happens at the very beginning of the trial. Audio is Een sends out a video tape, those days it was videotaped today, PETE, you know, I guess cd. Whatever excuse me, Cd Youtube. Yeah, okay and

he said that video tape And on the video tape, it's quite interesting it's great the wrestling with little grade no like like a father and a son wrestle yelling and you can hear kibitzing. You dish word meaning kidding around in the background You can hear Mary Teresa style she can hear Kathy. Are you ready to resist also, meaning in she spoke, which is is great. She needs a little great okay, no big deal right, I mean you know you got a kid. You know you might wrestle with the kid right. It's no big deal yeah and I get this video tape, just like everybody else in the press. I just you know I toss it into the you know: to go box, go to Florida, I live. I live in up in upstate New York, I I go with the floor and I go to the trial next to you

oh the trial, please show the video tape only within shows it to the jury. But it shows up without sound and You look at without sound, it will without sound. It looks like. Grady is being brutal to his and at the The proceedings that day, I woke up to run Haines who's, the who's, the state's attorney I I'm not gonna like just you know. I said you know. I talked everybody, it's my personality and I said well, I should I dilute it cuts down. He says you can't have cell. I should he said well, then send for it. Let's take a look at it and I I walked. In that day, I walk out, and I mean Into the to the parking structure like on my car parked on, let me forget it. Yes, I get to the elevator. I push with what I go old man. I used

different word, I'm not going to use it on radio, even though we run you know internet. And I said: oh man, I said I know it just happened, see I went to films Google, university of Southern California's film school. So, you're very aware that when you have video or film with sound it, completely different than when it's without sound, try 122nd. If you have the sound, it's not brutal. If you don't have the sound, it is brutal, they took the sound off they doctored. It should have people would think it's brutal and they would feel sorry for Mary and they would come back with a with out. And at that point than I had one of the hardest moments of my life, I sent for the tape running said to me you that tape. You call me an I had.

People telling me not to give it not to become part of the case, As you know, journalists are not supposed to be part of the case right and the tape came and I didn't know what to do and at the Dave edit came and I've never spoken about this publicly. This is the first time I had been up for ten year place Hoster University in New York, where I pull it journalism the day that it came. I was denied tenure because my degree, wouldn't film, not journalism. I was told I wasn't qualified to teach journalism because they don't have a degree in it. I looked at the tape and I said, wait. A second, If I'm not qualified to teach journalism. How come. I just came up with a piece of evidence that can lead to the condition of the killers like general over the prosecution. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so damn

I had to figure out what I was going to do, because you know, thank God, the death penalty wasn't on the table, so I have to figure out what we're going to do, because if I turn this tape over, I know it's going to lead to the conviction and I'm going to become part of it, and them he is going to do it for me. I know you know. I know the way the media works. Yeah. So I mean you know some people would consider me part of the media, so I have to decide what to do. And what was your decision. Well then, I sat there in that hotel room in Tampa and I didn't that they have to do and I didn't know who to call I didn't know who to talk to. I didn't know what to do and came to me at that point. I went back to my childhood.

Like one of my heroes. Growing up with Clayton Moore is the lone ranger for real in All, I could think was what with the long range of two and the answer came quickly: the long ranger with serve justice, regardless of personal consequences, and I say then, as I do now that the one thing that's sacrosanct in our system is the jury system The jury had the right to hear all the evidence untainted, and so I copied the tape. The next day I went in, and I gave the tape before trial to run Haines the prosecutor and he said to me this is now evidence in a murder trial. He went into court, he said to the judge. I just gotten ahold of a car tape with sound, I wanna show it. The judge said: how did you find this tape and

said. Fred. Rosen is writing a book on the case and I stood up in the courtroom and you could have heard a pin drop. I looked over at me like they wanted to kill me they. Let me threats against me. Did you add Eight, let's get the cape cued up and as he was doing it already was seen defense journey came over to me. Leaned over this flatter rail divider and said you mother, you know Watt, oh yeah you're acting up you wrapping up my murder case, and I have my tape, recorder going and I looked at the and he was ready to punch me out. And I looked at him- and I said, you're messing around with the jury system You're messing around with evidence and you're talking to me this way and running came over to him and sit on it. These recording this and he pulled him away. He was ready to hit me, which I wish

the whole thing 'cause I was going to take the plunge 'cause I figured. If you punch me out, then I told him and then they put the jury, they showed the tape. And advance Grady was convicted, I'm sorry, Mary was convicted when the jury was pulled afterwards. They said the thing that it decided them to think it through was the video tape that I had produced. Well, it's a double whammy for them because they see the the defense lawyer lying. Yes, you know I mean it's it's a travesty, to do something of that order. It would be in better for him to not acted underhandedly like he had and let the chips fall as they were. He would a much better chance, but you did do the right thing, and that is the right thing. That's the right decision! That's

Well, you know journalistic at. And I'm sorry I know I can get you can you can you have to have. Do you have to have that higher ethic because, as we know from court cases, we've seen in Justice- and we will be talking about another extraordinary spectacular case of injustice very soon, but you have to do the right thing, you're, a normal thing, because the core lots of times by their own definition- that's not their job. So someone has to have that that task especially when an opportunity is there for you? It may Maybe journalists aren't supposed to be part of the story, but then again, it's probably a once in a lifetime. Oper. Unity because you normally not in that kind of situation. So I applaud you for doing the right thing and of course it makes for an even more interesting story. Two doesn't it it does, but I and I thank you for saying that, because it was a very, it was the most

decision of my life. Now it's you I now with with Teresa. She really did. If it so in terms of she did get this bail and and then she she can she get her. Is she began her sentence and ninety seven. So and so here is. She was what is the prospect of her parole date or is there any kind of possibility for getting that kind of release some day, you're not gonna, believe it she's been out for over ten years there you go, she she served showing a couple of years. You see. The thing is running with just an incredibly compassionate prosecutor. He had offered or five years if she plead guilty, she said no, so she went to trial. She was convicted, they gave her. You know for time served for the time that she was.

Questrade before she got bail, sure, maybe three years she was out by the time? I take the unique documentary on this case and you have a once you was out, however, Chris, why the hit he served about eighteen years he's out the only person. That's still in jail is Harry Glenn, Newman Junior, who is least culpable ' 'cause. He gave the money to Chris. He was also a for five years, but Mary Teresa's file spoke to him for his for her son she's. So angry If at the system she would make the deal and as a result, he got convicted and sentenced for life in who's in jail in Florida for life, which is a shame absolute shape. And he he he didn't deserve. He really didn't deserve. So this really out and In fact, if we, you know the show

so evil KEN for the investigation, discovery channel, they're going to be contacting some of the family and seeing what they want to be on the show- and I told him I said that great, I said to make sure we're not the same studio at the same time. Uh. Otherwise I'm calling tony stark- and I want his armor- you know yeah yeah, it's very interesting to you, were talking about them being on the HBO B. O Series Carnivale, but also Khakis, appeared in TIM Burton's, big, Fish fire, actor yeah, it is another movie called firecracker and and and that apparently to the, if there is some still some performing going on in that family, actual quote, for a dance That's why you you're you're much better journalist than I am. I didn't bother looking that up. You cannot imdb huh. Well, there's lots of stuff, you know, there's lots of stuff, so

Amazing stories told me this. Yeah. I mean you know the family performers, the performance and you know you can make a living right out in and you know it's it's. You know it's it's it's it's it's some time ago, but I think this case, sealed itself into anybody who was involved in it. It's sheared itself and everybody's heart. If you are involved in this case, you involved emotionally. I mean I'm interested. No. I was gonna say that there was a sad sort of. Ending to is that there was no pallbearers at the funeral. This guy was maybe not so loved. Well see, that's that's more something that's perpetrated by the family

The fact is, there were people in the community that did like him and I spoke to them. You know I mean if you're going to do is Well, you know if anybody knows if you're going to do a funeral, you let people out people don't like them. It was in a question of the people didn't like it was you know, I'm sure, was more question of biggest and let people know about it. You know and uh. Are you look think about it? I mean it's like ok. People, perpetrators, murder and now they're going to be his pallbearers got. I will probably your guys, you know no, but I did go to. I did go to his. I did go to his grave as part of pull it research whatever all I can tell you is this: I don't care he did in his life. He didn't deserve to be murdered. Nobody deserves to be murdered now period, and it's wrong and you know

this one other thing that I you know- and you know I'll, leave this People are listening in their interest in buying the book, which is an Amazon Kindle you'll find some interesting stuff that we haven't discussed at the very end, which pro boots beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the night that he was killed. Grady Stiles, was not a menace to anybody That what he did in his wife that night, he was not a menace to anybody and that's on the book and you and you can see it. I mean you can see it. You can smell it It it you know, and I always felt like you My job is Dan when we,

doing this work in your true crime, author as well as I am. We speak for the dead, yeah yeah. Well, true absolutely he goes well. You know it is customary for people an again, sometimes the big bad media to depict people as ' you know somehow have it coming to him and raw places along time or or they 'cause I'll use the denote some people as well the innocent victim of their all innocent victims. I mean for amount of people that we can say: okay absolutely, but I don't know. I I like to just think of all people, the matter what their foibles, whatever their past they're, murder, victim and certainly that's part of our task is to find out the truth, because we do speak for those

people, sometimes the last of wine shall not kill now. Speaking of speaking for the ed, and I we we're going to get to this case of Kendrick Johnson and we've had a couple programs already on true murder about this specifically and we've had a little bit of well, we've had developments, let's, let's get right to that, led give us a sort of a recap for those people that don't know anything about Kendrick, Johnson and they'll be motivated to go. Back in the archives and listen to some of the programs and do some of the research then go online and look at Ebony magazine. Some of the articles that you've written already so tell us, give us a little synopsis of this case, and then we can get up to

read on what the latest developments are. In this incredible case on on January, the tenth United two thousand and thirteen. Cancel Johnson Seventeen year old african american teenager walked into the gym at Lowndes County High School in Valdosta, GA and he disappeared. He disappeared when he was taken off the face of the earth the next day, coach, Phillip peoples quite discover him in a rolls up wrestling mat in the old gym at the school, the shift, and he was that his face was very distorted at that point. Pictures of his of his distorted became viral on the internet. This is was that

stated as anybody with be. There were no suspects. The local sheriff a guy named Chris Prine, claimed. He died by falling into the wrestling mat while reaching for a sneaker that each stored there and died from something called position the Sixty h, which simply means that he couldn't get out. There was a lot of pressure on his chest. He couldn't believe he died and that's that. And so what occured after that was that the family, Keniston, Jackie John. Very courageously okay on the streets without thought stuff that son had been murdered. And that the sheriff was not doing his job and that this was wrong. Subsequently, Kendrick Kendrick John

It was found who died from Positional Association by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, which is, notoriously corrupt- and I- and we have discussed this on this- show before in the Gary Hilton Case- and it is known in Georgia, by many individuals how coop this organization is, and if they have any problems But what I'm saying come and get me make my day. It sure what occurs is that they claim that they do an investigation and they send it out. They say three of investigation like it's a murder investigation, and during this

That's during this investigation. They send any a a detective to interview too. Who excuse me one is seventeen. One is eighteen. The dad is an F agent and this dad who's. An FBI agent was in charge of the southwest. Individual cops sent out to the investigation was part of this. Thank thank this force. Never declares us with the dentures interviews, the father it used to boards, and it turns out that one of these boys has had to fight with Kindred Johnson,

The only individual we have come up with, who has motive, am I doing so far. Pretty good. Tell us about the the The texts that were it's very compelling information will be ok, this a few things I want to say something publicly before I get to the text, which is, in previous broadcast. On this show I was on with the private investigator in eight ball. Webster like the Webster had been had been employed at one point, Why should be in King Junior, who was the first attorney representing the family? Subsequently I discovered to what occurs. Is this in web

Given these certain information regarding who the he claims, certain individuals were the perpetrators of this crime. However, what occured was this in November of twenty thirteen Webster called me up and told me that my life was being threatened. And I was sure I couldn't tell you know I don't you know, I don't know anybody else, it's the old, but you know when you're somebody's telling you that it's been taxed and and emails and phone calls. Your life is being threatened, took me back well it about ten minutes, During that phone conversation to find out that Webster was perpetrating a hoax. He thought this was funny. Subsequently, I said: wait a second he's pulling this crap there's something wrong

here, and I and I didn't investigate it further and I discovered that some of the individuals that he claimed were involved in this case as fair guys were not he was disingenuous to the n Th Degree hello I discovered that he'd already been by the time I started writing about the case. Contrary to what he told me, he'd already been fired by being king Junior as the private investigator on the case. So what I did was this. I kept going I got some new contacts in Valdosta Georgia and luckily these were wonderful Texan. I got a tremendous amount of cooperation from people on Twitter people in Valdosta a researcher who helped me out is in New Jersey is one investigator Porter, who I'm working with in Valdosta, who a woman who's incredibly brilliant

and the wide it is. We found texts and guess what there was a student in the gym who texted when the body was discovered, and he went chapter and verse about what occured that day and then on Kendrick Johnson's birthday, October, tenth heat that the body was taken out of the gym before the car in showed up tires before and the car to himself- and his report had said the body was moved, which means Jack when the karner came k came on the scene over four hours after the body- was discovered. They had taken the body out and guess what guys put the body back in and when I say they I am talking

about the Lowndes County Sheriff's department, specifically Chris Prime this in for issue is brought to the attention of Michael J. More who is the United States attorney for the Middle District of Georgia, whose hope opened an investigation into the case, and now it's up to mister more to decide whether he is going to charge Chris Prine. And his investigators with corruption in this case, which he absolutely can do. So that's one of the things that's happening here. The second thing is this, and I'm hoping to write this piece for ebony dot com, which is this. I have discovered the motive. The means

and the opportunity for one of those two boys that I mentioned earlier. Who's daddy is an FBI agent to have killed, Kendrick Johnson, and so that is something that I would like to that. I would like to write and what I would like to pursue further. I have information that is come to me about. Why can't your Johnson walked into that gym on January, the tenth, how we was word in there by somebody and there's one other point that I'd like to make publicly which I've written about, which is the s. The school district was very quiet to send out a press release saying this is before the autopsy is completed. Are we thought was a short sixty ation? You know what I don't care. If

Terry. This is a man named Les Taylor. It was his letters who discovered the body in the map. No, I understand, being a father trying to diminish your children's participation in the case to protect that. However, there is a greater interesting here and there and a greater good, which is justice for boy that was murdered and that's where Miss Michael Moore comes in. He needs to be, and he is dispatched. Rather five. Fbi agents, hello, Sue, Lowndes County. It's like you did George you're interviewing individuals to know something about this case. And the hope is that they're going to come back with information that will lead to the indictment of the individual

or individuals who have committed this murder and, if any, if the body is reading, this thinks this is murder. Then I suggest you go see. A Steven Spielberg film about Guy named Det. Ok you is is is a fascinating story of of cover up, but it's also a very I object story, but also encouraging story of parents taking again, this into their own hands and demanding justice on the streets of Valdosta, but all at the courthouse at all a locking, arms and and and and a daring them to arrest them, so these people have you know. Your heart goes out to these people, a young really good. Looking kid, with a lot of promise in his life

and when you see the photos, it's a visceral reaction that that this face was book. His teeth were knocked out. It was incredible and, like you say right corner very powerful. With the corner says uh this is they didn't? They didn't follow any kind of procedure, I'm supposed to be called immediately, so you've got one heck of a story going on here. Yeah. Let me just let me just correct something is T Ford yeah. What occurred was this when Dr William Anderson, who is absolutely brilliant colleges, pulled by the family they what they did was in in June of last year, the this- is hard body. They sent it to docked Anderson in Orlando, and he did the second autopsy that twenty found at the organs were missing yeah that is that became the news, okay and operated

he to me Fred. He said everybody's going to pick up on the business of the Organs Mission it's red herring. He said the fact I read their personal. I read the report of the original autopsy by investigation ladies lungs, wait the normal amount. He said if it was positional is fixie a shun, the lungs with filled with water, which things he didn't die from it and Doctor Anderson then didn't I section of Cape Kj's neck. He discovered that Kj died what to his neck. It sure buy a wrestling hold. Remember the

two kids I mentioned earlier. His dad is an FBI agent. Yes, that's why the both less was, great. The first with a and one of them is a is a brilliant football player. Okay, these are very strong, capable kids, so. What we have an the parents, Jackie and Kenneth Johnson, have been pushing fight for justice eight and tomorrow morning. If anybody was listening to I'm saying and you out on the street about streets of Valdosta you'll, see me from courthouse there protesting looking for justice, and the hope is this. That Michael Moore relation to the documentary film producer

and Michael J more to differentiate him from the dude from Michigan? Michael is going to be, to me, and I believe him, I believe, he's one Few federal officials we have it's earning his salary. Mister Morris said to me that he will go any place to get justice, he is investigating until I see otherwise. I as an American, I support what he's doing as journalist. I will always hold his feet to the fire, which is we have to do isn't it, then you know you know I don't care if it's right, it makes no difference. If it's, you know if it's a federal official, maybe You know a parliament, Prime initially, the President, that's what we do, ok and so, but more is what war is doing is gathering information at the

whenever that is, he makes a decision I have enough evidence to indict personally, I think he's got enough evidence right now to go after the loud county, Sheriff's department. Running up water with that day and I might add, ladies and gentlemen, that earlier said, and the evidence is there. The cops come the crime, the crime scene, the it's down in the wrestling mat you ready for this. You know what they did, wrestling that it claimed it sure thing and a Bush walk besides the fact that his organs disappear. After the fish there taxi recreating disappeared. We call that forensics is cool, he disappeared and guess walk the video of

I'm going in the gym is facing his fate that disappeared, excuse me and and these crates, still in Valdosta the cops the White House establishment. To get away with this crap. And the only way get away with it is when keep you like us talk about it publicly. The wave we are now, and we call them out and say: ok, you think you're going to get. Is it's not going to happen? Will and and and the Johnson family has been out there in the street protesting. And I take at that. Eventually, we will get justice for Kj, because that's what this is about. We can't let something like this go on because, quite frankly, if we let that happen, it can happen. Any of our kids any place. Yeah.

Well, that is it that you know you pay a huge price for justice and in fact there is wrongful convictions con instantly, but there's also these non convictions where, if not for the family and then subsequently for people. Yourself and private investigators and activists tweeting and commenting on a case like this keeping it alive because, like you had mentioned in another interview, that Valdosta is kind of out of the way it kind of isolated, and things can happen in small places with people with special interests and so and call crime like this was just going to He covered up really easily without the efforts of the family first and then all the other people that were affected by seeing this travesty of justice. So we pay a high price for this, and we we should demand that the system works. The way it's supposed to work and

this certainly has well got the attention of attorney general or the attorney state attorney, Michael J more so that is testament that there are some Lidetu a cover up and that's why the the heavy charges are being considered so yeah Wish the family luck there and I think the added pressure that these lots of times. It's never underestimate people looking at this kind of case and demanding justice. So Never underestimate a journalist Who was your radio show you who is given this attention? and there are people out there who listen to your podcast all the time, and I've seen them quoted on Twitter. So I just want to say person Thank you very much for your commitment to this case. Well, it's my pleasure, because this is

really if there is any kind of purpose to a show other than telling stories of justice and good police work and and dedicated secutores and dedicated defense attorneys as well, and the cycle pathic and twisted killers that are are of these stories. But when you have this kind of again travesty of justice, these are stories that obviously the audience is interested in as well, because we're all we'd all love to see Justice ACT Lee happen, the way we believe and in this system now we know that is the system that we have and when we are participants. In writing that wrong and understanding the difference between justice and injustice that that's again I think the true crime reader is that is kind of passionate person. The person that listens to these p Grams to authors tell their stories, that's the kind of

in that they are it's not a it's. It's not a thrill seeking person. It's a person is in trusted in the most serious type of history, and that is true crime. You know what um that there's nothing I can say, except that you're. You know you very eloquent, and I couldn't you know, there's no way to say that any better than than what you've said and I couldn't agree with you more about the reader. I've discovered that two one on a specially on Facebook, that it is the you know. This is a group that I I part of cool talking, true crime with Maria and the These people are incredibly dedicated to the truth and end,

it's it's a spanish if it's really spanish and I'm just hoping that there be enough interest Dennis, and I know you have an international audience that people will continue to to pay attention to this particular case, because there's many cases in the world this many cases it won't all over the world that if we can, if we start here and was successful, it just keeps going and because of the fact that you have an internet, audience. You make a difference. You make a difference in people's lives. So again. Thank you very much for continuing to bring this case to the attention of your listening audience. Thank you Fred for those kind words, and I want to thank this deal audience that tunes in and all the people that that email me constantly and tell me just just letters of support. Common

and how much they they value the program and value the authors that come on and talk about their books and the stories and the entertainment value of it all and and the benefit of it, the educational aspects of its often time, you're, you're, picking the brains, I'm picking the brains of the of the the people that are the experts in this area and there's so many people fascinated by that. I wanted to say before we go, to then I'm very happy also to have audible of the world's leading name and digital audio books as the sponsor of this program as well, and I wanted to tell people that, listen to the pro today that there's a thirty day free trial. If you haven't experienced audio books as yet audible is the place to start with over one hundred and fifty thousand titles and growing, and there

So the I didn't know this is a leading producer provider of radio and television and audio versions of newspapers and magazines. So they really are the. His name and information, education and entertainment, in audio books and for those people that again an ebook The experience of paperback, of course, is what everyone grew up with. I grew up with. You grew up with its it's not going to go away, but an audio book is really completely different experience and so with the very best narrators audible really does provide an experience that you just don't get an there's a lot of people that are on the road are or very, very interested for various reasons. Some people are handicapped visually people are on the road and basically got two hands on the wheel, and so they want to listen to audiobooks, there's all kinds of peep

but if you haven't heard them, it's an amazing experience. It's really totally something that you haven't sorry to use that word again and if do visits audible, please, audible, dot, com, slash to murder and tell him Dan sent you so again thirty day free trial and experience a free audio. Book right now and go see, audible and Amazon company. So, thank you very much for that, I wanted to thank you, Fred for coming on and again sharing this story of the Kendrick Johnson, because this is to my heart I know it's close to your heart and I think the fans and they responded this way that their there very interested in being part of this story and seeing this to come to fruition, because it's so we've got this information in bits and pieces, and very my a very unique experience and I'm very, very positive, peep

will be very, very interested in the book and then getting down to the entire background and your involvement in this case again, you stuck your neck out and you're, making some claims and you're digging deep and near the the leading purveyor of this. In this case- and so I applaud you on that- and I want to thank you very much for coming on talking about lobster boy and talking about this case as well. Well, then, Thank you very, very much I as as always, I love being on with you. I am I want to check out I I recommended everybody else, who's listening to support, because that means that supports you, and all I can wish you is- is good health and happiness in this new year for all of us. Yes, absolutely and really audible is really just providing a. Either way for for people to enjoy the authors books

now that, with the advent of publish on demand and now with the book says, we've just demonstrated with lobster boy a book it might have been hard to find now is accessible everywhere and it's very reasonable prices. So it gives the true crime fan Eve. And even more to go back, because nothing can match a story like lobster boy. It's just. I mean you know this is just such a wild tale. I mean with all these developments in in No, there was, you will never find this kind of freak show going on again it's a slice of amerikana and it's amazing. And my dad. It's not it's just I don't know what the maybe it Canadiana? I don't know it's also part of Canada because he played Canada to you, help you probably another doctor, there's a fame this movie. Actually I saw- and it was the closest thing to this story here. Lobster glass was so excited to read this book is that

There was a movie that was only really collectors, and it was, I guess it was illegal to actually own and of course, I knew somebody that owned a copy of it and was called freaks they could have shot in Toronto. And it was an amazing they said you know this would never ever happen again because of all the developments in in medical techniques and people didn't stay as freaks and people again. You know aboard that kind of word in the whole freak show kind of animal thing that you describe in lobster boy was kind of outlawed in Canada, and but they did make this film and they actually used. The you know the man with no arms and legs lighting a cig. Brett and Nae Nae in employed all of these actors loosely in this this story, and so what an incredible tale- but this is about to close the freak that lobster buoys so greatly increase was was felt was from the nineteen thirties if we're talking about the same felt that

right. Yeah, absolutely yeah is shadow tour. Well I that's what I remember I remember was one thousand nine hundred and thirty two, as you say, that's a that's from my memory, but maybe not cost hardly I don't know for sure I don't know that sure, but I saw a copy well like thirty years ago, so uh I saw a copy of the bill wow. What I really should it as a young. Well, thank you very much bread and I hope to hear from you again soon and I'm sure we'll be talking again soon, because I know that this Michael Moore will be will be doing something will be encouraging to the family and all those people that are looking at this case very very seriously. Well,

thank you again for your interest and and I'll talk to you soon. Thank you very much. Fred have a good night. Yes, sir, can I. I don't get the flavors of computer back in a big way, we're talking con king donuts, pumpkin, muffins, pumpkin munchkins, don't holes, ovoid, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen copy, pumpkin, latte, scanned the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin flavored everything at Dunkin America runs on Dunkin and pumpkin cake, ipods to limited time, offer participation can kick it used under license and

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