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radical new way of thinking about depression and anxiety. What really causes depression and anxiety, and how can we really solve them? Uh huh journalist Johann Hari suffered from depression since he was a child and start taking antidepressant, since when he was a teenager, he was told it is. Problems were caused by a chemical imbalance in his brain as an adult trained in the Social Sciences. He began to Vesta Gate, whether this was true and he learned that almost everything we have been told about depression and an anxiety is wrong across the world Horry found social scientists who were uncovering evidence that depression and anxiety are not caused by a chemical imbalance in our brains. In fact, there are largely caused by keep problems with the way we live today. Hari's journey took him from a mind, blowing series of experiments in Baltimore too, and uh

fresh community in Indiana, two and a prize in Berlin. Once he had uncovered the nine real causes of depression and anxiety. They led him. The scientists who were discovering seven, very different solutions, ones that work is an epic journey that will change how we think about one of the biggest crises in Ark uh sure today, his TED talk, everything you think you know about addiction is wrong, has been did more than eight million times and revolutionized the global debate. This book will do the same. The book cover featuring this evening is lossed connections, Uncovering the real causes of depression and the unexpected solutions with my special this journalist and author yoga on Hari. Thank you very much for agreeing this interview and welcome back to the program Johann Hari hi.

That is really good to be back with you and you'll still be only radios to says my name right first time round, as I would totally great I'm I'm a mob grateful I can do that 'cause, I'm usually butchering peoples names, so there we go congratulations on this book. This is amazing. Let's get right to this, you talk about being eighteen years old when you first swallowed your first antidepressant and it was Paxil, and you started this book three years ago. Take us back to that first time and your experience with antidepressants and then tell us about the impetus for this book. The reason for this book an where you started and three years ago, yeah. The answer to those questions is really interconnected down

that with these two mysteries that were hanging over me, the first was one hundred and thirty nine years old Every year I've been alive in Britain, the United States and Canada Depression Innings. Right it increased and I wanted to understand why what's going on what? Why does so many more people all around us seem to be becoming so distressed and the second mystery was more personal. When I was a teenager, as you mentioned, I went to my doctor and I explained that I had this fear being like pain, was kind of bleeding out of Maine. I don't understand it. I didn't for quite shamed it. I know why this was happening and my doctor told me a story about why I felt this way. Pizza isn't, finally, biological story, he said. Well, we scientists discovered what causes this causes depression. There's a chemical called serotonin in peoples brains.

Some people are naturally lacking. It you're clearly wanted them. The solution is just that we need to give you these drugs, so I started taking, as you say, Paxil and I thought, an immediate and significant boost of the several months I felt radically better, but after a while, this sense of pain started to kind of bleed back through. So I went back My doctor is so clear and give you a high enough those I started taking a higher dose again. But again, I started along the side effects. I start paying on a lot of weight. For example, again this sense of pain started to bleed back. Through Anna got hired those and those kind of in this cycle until I was taking the maximum possible dates for thirteen possible for thirteen years, at the end of which I was still there spray. I had felt some benefits initially, but I was still depressed so for my bill last connections. I really want to go on this journey to understand what was to really solve these two mysteries what's happening here right, so I ended up going traveling, as you say, over forty

one thousand miles to meet the leading experts in the world about what causes depression. Anxiety was awesome and to go to places. They had very different perspectives on this, and I think I learned many things for this book, but on this journey. But what are the most important to me was I realized that until I went to my doctor when I was a teenager, I thought my dip in an anxiety all in my head, meaning. You know I was just being I needed to man up and it's to be tougher. You insert whatever stigma cousin cliche you want there and then for the next thirteen years. I thought It was all in my head, meaning it was just a kind chemical imbalance in my brain, but actually what I learned this journey is from the leading x, but in the world there are biological factors that can make you more sensitive to these problems. There real brain changes, your jeans and so on, to write that in the book, but actually

main causes of these problems according to, for example, the World Health Organization believe medical body in the whole world a large tree. No in our heads that, mostly in space, thick factors in the way we living alone. There are nine causes, a dip anxiety, for which there is scientific evidence. Two of them are biological. Several of them are factors in the way we live, and once you understand that it leads you to a very different set of solutions, ones that are more effective. Before you did, this, though, are part of this entire process before you come to the realization is that you do in this book, so you Had to look at the studies from the pharmaceutical companies. You had to look at the importance of lip Siebel effect and you look that someone named Irving Kirsch's work and the the emperor's new drugs. So tell us a little bit about this work that he

done and the research that you did into those studies that he did. Yeah So we need to have a more nuanced conversation about chemical antidepressants is too often this debate is frame. Either are you full or against chemical antidepressants, which I think is too simplistic a way of thinking about this? So one of the things that really startled Maine was to disk. Cover that the story. I was told that depression is caused by low serotonin in the brain. There was never a time when half of the scientists in the field believed that professor Andrew Scarlet Princeton University, says it is deeply misleading and unscientific to say: depression is caused by low serotonin in the brain. The lead water leading experts here in Britain, Doctor David Healy, said to me

yeah. You couldn't even call that story, discredited 'cause. It was never credited. There was never a time when half of the scientists in the field believe that the reason we were sold that story that it was about low serotonin in the brain is 'cause. That was the story that was most popular with drug company PR's. That was Story that made it easy to sell the truck, because what it tells you is, are you just go? A natural chemical imbalance in the brain in these drugs are restoring you to the natural state right now. That's not true doesn't mean these drugs have no value. So you mentioned Professor Irving. Kirsch is the leading expert on this. At Harvard Medical School he's done really important research on this question and as many things he discovered, but the most important is depression is often measured by something called. The Hamilton scale are worse, but really sorry for Weather Hamilton was that we only remember him by measuring how miserable we are, but tell guys to give you a sense of it from one where you would be dancing around in just a single, maybe on ecstasy, two hundred and fifty one,

but you would be acutely suicidal and give you a sense of what movement on the Hamilton scale looks like if you improve your sleep patterns, you're generally gain six points in the Hamilton scale, and if your sleep patterns deteriorates or say you have a kid or something had baby. You generally six points on Hamilton scale. What professor Kirsh found by looking at the data, so there's a very selective way. Worse is everyone knows where, if you take selfies to do your tinder profile, you you know you take thirty pictures, you get rid of the twenty nine. Where you look like you got a double chin or you like your building or whatever, and then you use the 30th. One is your tinder profile picture when the original apple? This will be made anti antidepressants to be released.

Applying to the drug regulated as it turned out. The drug companies did something very similar. They basically selectively released the studies, so only the studies which suggested the drugs had a really powerful effect, we're really what were released. What book published, so we ended up with the court distorted picture of how well they did well. Professor Kirshner, if you look at the the data, the the the all the data, not just the stuff that they released to the public, but when he showed is on average chemical anti depressants move people were. One point eight points on the Hamilton scale so remember, improving your sleep patterns gives you a six point boost. On average chemical antidepressants. Give you a one point. Eight point these there's a few things that are important to stress about that. Firstly, that's an average So I initially got more by the time I got less important said this debate. Some people think it works better with people with severe depression and and the support they. Some scientists think that the approach

percussions figures slightly under estimated and that it's more like three points on the Hamilton scale, but once you understand that, when you can see is a few things. Firstly, one point: eight points is worth having for some people right. Some people that boost will outweigh the significant side effects, in which case you know, I'm glad for them and they should carry on, but you can also see why, for most people, overtime, that boost isn't big enough to solve the problem of their depression. And their anxiety? You need more than one of the people who really help me to Just and one of the ways we need to think about this differently was the south african psychiatrist called Derek Summerfield. So I went to interview- and he explained to me, just by coincidence, Derek was. In Cambodia in two thousand and one when chemical and antidepressants were first introduced in that country and the local doctors. The cambodian doctors didn't know where these drugs,

where they've never heard of them, so they asked him. What are they and sorry, I'm losing my voice back and he explained to explain what these drugs were and they said to him. So we don't need those. We don't need them, we've already got antidepressants and he said what do you mean he thought they were going to talk about some local herbal remedy or something. Instead, they told him a story. They told them about a farm in that community. It worked in the rice fields and one day he stood online line and got his leg blown off an they gave him an artificial legs are good at that camper in Cambodia. As a sort myself, when I was there, and they he went back to work in the fields, but apparently it's very painful to work underwater when you got an artificial limb for obvious reasons I match it was pretty traumatic for this guy to be back in the fields where he got blown up. He start

the cry all day didn't want to get out bad kind of classic depression. They said to Derek, so we gave him an anti depressant Derek said: what was it? They explained that they went and sat with him they listen to him. They realized that his pain made sense that it for some irrational malfunction. It was being caused by the way he was being made to live. They figured if they bought him a cow. He could become a dairy farmer. He wouldn't have to be in this situation. There was causing him so much distress, so they bought him a cow within a month. He crying his depression went away. They said the Derek, so that cow was an antidepressant right. That's what you mean what those cambodian doctors knew intuitively is what the World Health organization. The leading medical body in the world has been trying to he is, if you're depressed. If you're anxious you know

crazy you're, not a machine with broken parts, you're a human being, unmet needs and you need support and help to get those needs met. And this is where things were united, not all, but most of the causes of depression and uh I learned about everyone Since your showdown knows that they have natural physical needs right, you need food, you need order, any cleaner. You need shelter. If I took them away from you, you would be The real trouble real fast right. This equally strong evidence that human beings have natural psychological needs. You need to feel you belong. You need to fill your life has meaning and purpose. You need to feel that people see you and value you. You need to bill, you've got a secure future and how culture is good at many things, but we've been getting less and less good at meeting these underlying psychological needs. Very large numbers of people

and that is one- it's not the only one, but that's one of the key reasons. While we have a growing depression and anxiety crisis. You found out a little bit more as well, because we mentioned it, prescribed at at eighteen years of age, sure you also looked at and you chronicle about what the lancet concluded. And the studies they did specifically for use with antidepressants with teen and so what were those conclusions. This was our initial. Kick me to the lawn so which is one of the leading with one of the leading medical journeys and channels in the world. I published a very detailed study that found that it looked. I think it was seventeen chemical antidepressants to teenagers and it found that all, but one didn't work at all.

And it's not recommended they not be given steroids with shocking is one of them was the drug that I was in fact given as a teenager pack. So it was quite shocking as well to see some of the leaked memos from the drug company that produces these drugs saying they didn't work for teenagers, but I think one of the other names for the drug is peroxy teen, and I- The wording at the memo was that it would be commercially unacceptable for the profile of Purok Satine to release that information. So they didn't they We know this part because there was a big court case taken by Eliot Spitzer, when he was the attorney general in New York state against the drug companies, and they had to make a big big payout in cork of the core family had in fact misled people about giving antidepressants to teenagers. So Think again. What that shows is I'm. Not arguing that we should take chemical antidepressants off the menu. They do give some relief to some people. What I'm arguing is we need to radically expand the menu because then

solving the problem for extremely large numbers of people doesn't mean there No, but it does mean we need a lot more options and one of the things that was fascinating to Maine was meeting all over the world with people who were acting on this insight. So I'll talk about one of the causes of depression, anxiety, someone who decided to effectively do the equivalent of those cambodian doctors want to do, which is find account for the problem right. So we the loneliest soc that has ever existed as a study that asks Americans. How many close friends did you if you can call on in a crisis and when they started doing this study years ago. The most common answer was five. Today, the most common answer is, none is now

the average, but it's the most? There are more people who say nun than any other option, which is kind of startling right and just talk about this a lot. So I interviewed extensively the leading expert on loneliness in the world. A man who'd, sadly actually died this week, a wonderful guy called Professor John Cassiope, oh, who did really ground breaking research on this and Professor Cassiope. Oh, it's kind of many things, one too shocking one. He showed so when we're stressed re release a hormone called cortisol. He showed that feel cutely lonely is a stressful for human beings as being punched in the face by a stranger and explained to me you know, if you think about. Why are you able to have this conversation that is partly becaus? Our ancestors on the savannahs of Africa, We're really good at one thing right: they weren't bigger than the animals they took down. They weren't faster than the animals they took down, but they were,

credibly good at banding, together into tribes and cooperating every human instinct? is to live in a troll. I'd be easily the holidays. Humans need to try if you think about the circumstances where we, both if you were separated from the tribe, you were frightened and anxious and depressed for really good reason. You will probably about the dollar right, you know, and and and and those are the impulses we have. Will the first humans to ever tried to leave without trying its country to our human nature and the central to what the here is. A public lost connections is someone who really absorbed this insight in this research and began to act on it. So as you help from my weird Downton, Abbey Accent and british. Should I spend lots of fun life in the US and here in London at the moment in EAST London, as an extraordinary doctor called SAM Everington, so SAM this is a general practitioner in a poor part of these London is actually where I live for a long time or though, sadly he was never my doctor and

sound was very uncomfortable because, like me, he's not blanket, they opposed to chemical entity presence, but he could just see her loads of patients coming to for example, we're really lonely, and he could just see that this wasn't solving their problem. You know the most of them, so he does to try something different one day a woman came to him called LISA Cunningham LISA had been shall Weiner home with crippling depression and anxiety to seven years should barely left her house and sensitive. Don't worry I'll carry on giving the drugs I'm also going to prescribe something else, I'm going to prescribe the to take part in a group

so there was an area behind the doctor's surgery that was just kind of like scrubland write an essentially. So what I'd like you to do is to turn up twice a week, are kind of support you and with a group of other depressed and anxious people were going to turn this scrub land into a beautiful garden. The first meeting of the group LISA was literally physically sick with anxiety, but she kept going and Several things happened in this group. One is this before in a city, EAST, London, people in or anything about the natural world right they started. To put the thing is in the soil: they start to teach themselves gardening and they started to to know anything about any of this stuff and there's a lot of evidence that interacting with the natural world, is a very powerful antidepressant for reasons we can talk about. If you want

aside to do what human beings do, when we form tribes, they started to solve each others problems. There was one person. This is an extreme example in the group who was sleeping on the local public bus right. The drivers were just let him sleep on the night bars and everyone else in the group was like. Well it Shoot depressed, if you sleeping on the bus, they started pressuring the local authority to get this guy a home and they succeeded. It was the first time they've done something to someone else in years and it made them feel great over the weeks and months and then years the garden began to grow the way. Lisa put it me, as the garden began to bloom, we began to bloom. There's a study in Norway that found a very similar program. Prescribing people to take part in gardening was more than twice as effective as chemical antidepressants. I think, for a kind of obvious reason right. It's dealing with the reason,

some of the reasons why they were depressed and action in the first place and everyone in the world. I write about seven different kind of alternative antidepressants cause. I think anything that reduces depression should be regarded as an antidepressant that programmers and uh the present. But why do we hit all the time about the drugs which have some value and not about, for example, program which was shown to be twice as effective? Is because there's ten billion dollar industry and drugging LISA and there's's? you're a billion dollar industry in getting it, learn gardening with other depressed and anxious people and bonding with other people. So we ended up with a very distorted picture. What explains depression and anxiety? It's not that the Biolog cool stories, the real real biological explanations for depression, anxiety, which do contribute to it. There are real, bring changes to happen when you become depressed and they're. All of this, the real your genes can make you significantly more sensitive to these problems. We've been told is a story that focuses almost

entirely on those factors and barely all on the wider factors which the World Health Organization says, are the main drivers of this crisis. This Lucas called lost connections, and so you talk about disconnection and then later reconnecting and the ways to do that you talk about, though not, on and people know this. But this is startling. You say that 21st century man. We check our phone every six one slash two minutes and if you're a teen send an average of one hundred text today again what where society right now and as you describe sort of.

The opposite of where maybe it should be. How does that work? How does that happen despite everything that we're trying and intending to do? Apparently, so I want to understand this and the role the obsession with our phones and and these devices might be playing in this crisis. I one of the places I went with the first of the internet rehab center in the United States. It's a place called a restart Washington, it's just outside Spokane in Washington State and the woman who runs it cofounded. It is one called hip doctor. Hillary cash is a really extraordinary person and she kind of kind of accidental expert on this 'cause. She happened to have an office near the Microsoft office is in the 90s, so she saw the first wave of internet addiction that later becomes the kind of tsunami and it was I've got a bit when I arrived at this internet rehab center. My first thing I did absolutely instinctively get out the car is a clearing in the woods. Was I glanced at my phone and felt real The irritated, though it didn't have any cell phone reception. It couldn't check my email and those that await your in an internet

since you're in the right place. Right that's fascinating is that they get all kinds of people are restart Washington, but one of the biggest group, the biggest kind of demographic group they get is young men. We often become obsessed. With these multiply role, play games like world of Warcraft and talk to cash that to me. What do these young men get out of these games? They get the things they used to get from the culture, but no longer cat. They get a sense of Troy. They get a sense of identity. They get away to rise to gain. Points to gain status. These are things that culture doesn't give to these young men anywhere to get to many people anymore. You know, there's a study in br that found the average british child now spends less time outdoors than the average maximum security prisoners

because by law, a maximum security prison and has to have seventeen minutes a day and most kids don't get mad. If you think about that profoundly strange environment in which these kids are grown had grown up so it is an attempt to fill the hole. That's been left by the connections we've lost now is not a good way to fill that hole and I think, as I spent a lot of time there speaking people that kind of thing that the relationship between social media and social life, I think, is a bit like the relationship between pornography and sex right. I'm not opposed to pornography. Sometimes I look at it, but if your entire sex life consisted just of looking at pornography, you would go around constantly frustrated and irritated because we didn't evolve to look at images of sexual images, just we evolved to have sex right, and you know one spends an hour looking at porn and feels value how old is satisfied. The way you do once you've had sex. If, if it's get the guys right, you know not every thought, modestly, and and and

in a similar way. Applique also, maybe think about the moment in history when the internet arrives right, the internet rise in our lives are most of us in the late 90s, the early 2000s, when a lot of the factors that are driving up, depression and anxiety that I write about in lost connections had already massively been supercharged right go through nine causes. Most of them had risen by them. Or had remained high and was interesting, is the internet arrived and it looks a lot like the things we've lost right? We lost our friends, so it looks like the offices, Facebook, friends, we've lost our status offices status updates right, but actually it's a parody of the thing we've lost now. This is not to say, of course, and doctor cash who runs the restart Washington said this very clearly. You know it's not

save the internet is a bad thing, or that would be ludicrous right. She's on Facebook, I'm on Facebook, but if it dominates too much of your life. We didn't fold injuring three screens, it doesn't meet out. The pen needs right, the deeper communication we need. Is this face to face communication? Where we see into each our eyes we we sense the school's communication. Those are the the the the the post communication at me out, the penny and so yeah. I think this is partly. This is an element where the this internet session is a symptom of the disconnection we have and then, of course, in some ways it makes it worse. It forces us, for example, if you spend an hour scrolling through Instagram one of the things you do. Is you end up making lots of comparisons and one of the things that we know. Is one of the things that makes people much more depressed? Is thinking about your life x?

Finally, and looking at other peoples lives externally, rather than thinking about what you actually value makes you more depressors, this kind of a lot of things going on there. We should talk about that too, because the really why say, disconnection from meaning couple values is very, very important, and you talk about extrinsic and intrinsic motives. So in answer and extra intrinsic values as well so explain that and it's key to happiness or its connection happiness. So we all know that junk food- is taken over our diets and made us physically sick right. I said this with no sense of superiority. 'cause between the ages of twenty and basically lived off dead sea right. So that tells a story in the book of how, on Christmas two thousand and nine at lunch time I went to my local K. F C makes even sub is Christmas Eve and I set my mind to and order, which I repeat, 'cause it's so disgusting and water,

behind the counter to go home with so glad you're here and I was like ok and he went back, you know behind the ovens and everything and he brought out a massive Christmas card. They'd bought main entire star for Bobby and it said to our best customer. My heart sank apart, because I thought this isn't even the fried chicken store. I come to the most right So we all know how old junk food, the pop of a bold to need food, but it doesn't give us the Christian. It doesn't do this. You know the things we need. A very similar things happen to our bodies, so the thousands of years philosophers of said, if you think life is about money and status, you! I, you know how you look to other people too much more life become depressed and unhappy. Weirdly. No one had actually scientifically investigated this until an extraordinary man I got to know. Could professor TIM Kasser? Is that Knox College in Illinois and professor casting it already been discovered at their base,

Basically two ways: human beings motivate today, each other motivate ourselves to put it crudely. So imagine you play the piano in the morning, because you love it right. If you do that, that's intrinsic reason to play the piano you're doing it just 'cause the thing you're doing gives you joy and pleasure right, you're, not doing it to get anything else out of it just doing it. For that experience, I can now imagine you play the piano, not 'cause. You love it, but in a dive bar to make the rent right or because your parents are really pressuring me 'cause, they want me to be a piano maestro or maybe to impress a woman. You know maybe there's some piano fetishist out there right. That would be an extrinsic reason to play the piano.

You're not doing it because you love it you're doing it to get something else out of it. Right now, of course, we're all a mixture of intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, every human being is, but what professor Castle showed is several things that are really important as a culture. We had become much more driven by these junk values by these extrinsic values than we were before and the more you are driven by these junk values. These extrinsic values, the more you will become depressed and anxious by quite significant effect. I've been more than two dozen studies that show in this cross. The world, under several reasons, was because the cancer has discovered lots of reasons why a living this way makes us so depressed. Let's give you two examples. One is an the the I'm one of the things that makes human beings still really good. Is wall cooled flows,

so their moments when you're doing something you love so to me, is writing for some? yes, it might be running or singing or whatever and you're just in the zone, and you feel your flowing in the moment and time seems to just melt away. That's called the flow state right there make people feel really good, we need them as human beings and what professor Castle showed is the more you are driven by think values by how you looked other people, the less you get into these flow states? So imagine when you're playing the piano and 'cause you love it, and now imagine you suddenly stop there in the middle of playing piano ' 'cause, you love it and suddenly you think. How do I look all the other people in this room and my the best piano player in the United States today. How much am I going to be paid for playing his piano? You can see how that would joke you out of the flows, right, the more we driven by junk values. The more that you consider I mean the uh I went to music concert right. Amazing concept. You just see people

In the moment you know listening to this great performer and suddenly they get out their phones and they want to show off on Facebook that there at this thing right and you can see how it jokes them out of the experience at the moment, we are all being jolted out of these posts, much more because we've all become driven much more by junk bunnies. Another example would be Professor Kassebaum but the more we driven by junk valleys. The more the worse our relationships become so I'll. Give you a concrete example. This is going to sound like with a dick, but I mean it as a dig into thousand nine Melonia Trump went to speak at Nyu. This is long before the political stuff happened. Student off to something like? Would you marry Donald Trump? If he wasn't rich, she replied do you think he would have married me if I wasn't beautiful and That shows is how much their relationship is driven by these extrinsic values. So what only Trump knows if she got fat is over or Donald Trump knows is, if he lost his status and money is over right,

and you can see why that would be a more insecure, anxious relationship then say someone who'd say you know what I love my husband where there is rich or poor. I love my wife, whether she's fat or thin right the difference between everything being contingent and things being secure. Now, as a culture, we have become, much more like Donald and Melania Trump and much less, like your people have more secure relationships. So there's just two of some of the reasons why these junk values are making us feel so much worse and again. That shows all this evidence. Professor cancer and other people have found shows you can see why it's way too simplistic to just say to someone it's just a chemical imbalance in your brain. Of course, things are happening in your brain. I don't think a chemical imbalance is the way to describe that. But there are real things happening in your brain, but you can see why it's too simplistic your your brain changes in line with the way you live right in the same way that if I start lifting weight

my arms will get bigger, it doesn't mean I've got an arm disease abusing my arms differently, and so we've been told a story, that's too simplistic and we need to have a much more complex conversation about what causes depression, anxiety and how to solve them. The news is just for a second you. How to talk about today sponsor hymns. Hymns is a new wellness brand for men. Two slash three of men stay to lose their hair at thirty five Do they realize that they'd get much better results if they addressed it early that it's to keep what you have then replace what you've lost and why and then do nothing about the problems that have turning to science and Madison. There is a solution for him: dot com, a once top shop for hair loss, skin care, sexual wellness for men, offering med cool grade solutions and highly qualified doctors that will prescribe far less expensive

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about. You also just start to talk about Nero plasticity plasticity. I announced that sorry, a little bit about this add, add, tell us a little bit about status and respect, and this also baboon named Solomon. So this is very puzzling to me when, when I feel depressed, I say like a lot of people, I feel that I own one of these, I learned is that it's a little bit more than that a kind of metaphor. So I am one of the pre made a really big breakthrough in understanding. Depression is a cockle. Professor Robert Sapolsky is at Stanford Univ Versity and when he was in his early 20s, he went to go in live with a troop of baboons in Kenya on the sub

as Kenya and his job was to find out. When are baboons most stressed right, and so, when baboons are stressed, like human beings, they release a hormone called cortisol. So what robbers jobs please do is just dark these baboons and then take blood samples. Happens live mail by billions. Interestingly, not the women, but the mail, but the lead in a very strict hierarchy says it is fourteen and ended up being Street number one knows he's above two two days by the number three all the way down to fourteen and where you are in the hierarchy determines what, when you get to, he get have sex with. You know the top Boom get stamps sex with all the women. The bottom baboon doesn't get to have sex with anyone right and suppresses Polski lives with this group I'm very moved through the hierarchy. Rice, a sometimes you rise to become the talk about being the king of the swing, is an

Then you can get knocked down from your position as you get older and you get weaker. Some younger guy is going to come up and start having sex with women in front of you and eventually drive you out what professor supposedly found those two things that baboons are most. There are two circumstances where baboons are most stressed. One is when there status is insecure, so the top baboon when the young man are circling and he's insecure about whether he can keep his position, and the second is when you autumn at the hierarchy. The baboons at the bottom, we're stressed constantly and what happens is the baboons that are at the bottom in our stress constantly look a lot like depressed human beings? They withdraw? They don't want to get up there. The body is low, that their head flow. They keep their heads down, they show what's called a submission response, It's basically ways saying: ok, you beat me just leave me alone. Stop stop stop harass

in attacking me right. Are you okay? You got me right stocks that school the submission response, and what purpose is the polls Kian, Kuat Love, other social scientists at all cute is that human to press? is it is in part of what's going on? That is basically, if you are stressed in in security, much about your status for you so you're at the bottom of the pile too much you see if you can experience the physical sensations, which are a bit like the ancient forms of the submission response. The card what baboons expensive suspicion response and was into one of the ways we know this he's so proper is always live in a hierarchy right, but humans don't always live in strict hierarchies, our hierarchies very so, for example, Norway is a very equal country, so the richest Norwegian is not that much richer than the poorest Norwegian, the United. Updates today is a massively unequal society, the the five as to the Walmart fortune own.

In the bottom, one hundred million Americans right. So you can see this. Some societies have this this. You know asking about beans at the top in a and you know- and everyone else is like the baboon at the bottom and there's some have a big middle right and what we know Professor Kate, Pickett and Professor Richard Wilkinson have This is really powerful. Along with other people is the more society becomes unequal, the more people feel humiliated the more people, the more depression and anxiety grows. Up goes up right, so one of the things that's happening. We live in an environment and makes us feel cheeses are just being defeated here right if you're constantly been bumping bombarded with images that people who are so much richer than you, and there is no way you're ever going to get up to being to joining that I nearly at the top and everyone else is constantly stressed, and harassment mediated that produces more depression and anxiety, and this is one of the nine causes a depression.

My study that right by lost connections, it's a disconnection from a sense that you are respected and have a status. I mentioned and butchered neuroplasticity and its importance in this an it's good news for people. Tell us about this. Yeah. You don't want a bunch of people's brains that sort of bad side, so a lot of people are. I had misunderstood this, and this is very important to think about how we end stigma as well, so against depression and anxiety and things like addiction as well, which the subjects of my previous book chasing the scream at you, and I talked about on the show- So what will happen? Is people will be shown an image of the brain of a depressed person and they'll be told? This is what this is the pressure You can see the brain is very different to a non depressed person's brain and also the ways this shows. The pressure

is a brain disease. It is an inherent problem right and lots of people look to this, but one of the when people help me to understand. This is a wonderful guy called Professor Mark Lewis. So, professor, as shown and explained. Your brain changes as many other scientists shown as well. Your brain changes according to how you use it right, like I mentioned before. We all know this about other parts of my body. If I started sing weights which had tragically don't, but if I started lifting weights, my arms would become much bigger doesn't mean I've got an disease. It means I'm using my arms differently are very similar process, happens with brains, so London Taxi drivers fame have to sit a really difficult examination to get their license to be a London tag. Drive it. It's really hard to get this license. You have to memorize the map london- it takes on average three years to do it. It's called the knowledge. If you do brain scans of London taxi drivers, their brains, look very different to you

brain in my brain. The part of the brain that relates to spatial awareness is called. Hippocampus is much bigger and more developed now that doesn't mean that being a London taxi drivers of brain disease, obviously right now the danger with the story we tell about brains. Is it's true, as you become depressed, your brain changes usually you're becoming depressed because of these wider factors that we're talking about and many others we haven't talked about yet Your brain changes to bring charges in ways that make it harder to get out of that state. But it's important to stress when you will be given the support and the love and the way and the interventions that we know work to reduce depression and anxiety, your brain will change out of that state of depression. This is called

across the city, the brain restructures itself, according to how you use it right and so the danger? What we do. We tell people the stories about people's brains. If we tell a specific story about the brain, this is not true. The second actually traps people it makes them. You know it. It makes of the country's well, I'm just I'm just biologically different to me, one of the worst things we do, the one of the biggest problems about this story. We tell about depression. Just in a chemical imbalance or just being some other problem in the brain. Is it tells people that pain is meaningless. It's just a malfunction right and one most important things I learned is that our pain is not meaningless right? It is a signal is telling us something. It's telling us that our society is moved in the direction that does not me underlying needs. It tells us

you gotta change, some of the ways we lived together right, that's alright, important signal. If we put challenges kept coming to me. This is a trivial analogy, but you know I spend time in the US, and it always phases Maine the existence of in digestion, pills right things like pepto bismol and whenever I'm offered them. I always want to save the people put a minute in digestion. Isn't a malfunction in digestion? Is a signal from your body that you're eating too fast right? You don't want to get rid of the sea. Well, that's a really important signal. If you don't listen to it, you could hurt your stomach, getting some stomach ache you're going to on what you're gonna make yourself on well right that the snow, a pathology to experience in Digest, in a similar way. I want to take that analogy too far, but depression is infinitely more agonizing than in digestion. Depression is a signal right signal that something is going wrong. We need to listen. We need to stop insulting that signal and start listening to it and honoring it. At

that mean that people should just sit with the signal anymore than you should just sit within digestion. It means it's a signal is telling us the direction in which we need to change. You talk about it's an spent some time in acknowledge and overcoming childhood trauma is something to write about. Tell us what you found. This was the hardest part of the book for me to write for the loss of reasons. So I'll tell you the story of how this was discovered and the first to do. This was gonna. Think well. Why be telling us this is a completely different subject, but I don't think you can only understand the breakthrough that was made. If you understand this, so in the MID 1980s, a wonderful scientist I got to know called doctor, Vincent Felitti was working in San Diego.

He was approached by Kaiser Permanente, who are one of the big not for profit medical providers in California, and they said look we got this really big problem. Obesity was massively rising in California, like in the rest of the country and everything they were trying. Just wasn't working like giving people now personal advice, that kind of thing and they were like Lips- is really screw where people's help them with our budget, so they gave Vinson, really big bunch it to just do blue skies research to figure out what the hell is going on. So Vincent starts to work initially with the three hundred and fifty extremely obese people. These are people who weighed more than four hundred

and one day he had. This seems like a really stupid idea. He just said what would happen if they literally just stopped eating and we gave them the vitamin supplements that they would need, so they wouldn't get like scurvy and whatever, and so they decided to do. It obviously would like massive medical supervision and lots of doctors monitoring it, and the crazy thing is in one sense: it worked lated in fact lose motorway right, there's one woman in the program, so I'm going to call season to protect.

Confidentiality who went down from more than four hundred to one hundred and thirty eight pounds. Everyone was celebrating her life has been saved and one day something happens that no one expected she, she freaked the hell out. She goes to can't see or wherever it was, she starts obsessively eating, I'm quite quickly. She's back. You would not quite where she was a really highway. Vincent Calderon said Susan. What happened she said. I don't know, I don't know she was really ashamed and he said well tell me about the Wait, you cracked, what happened? It turned out that day. Something happens here that never happens when she was obese. A man had hit on her and it really freaked her out and milk and start to ask. Well that's actually, when did you start to put on weight? In her case it is she was eleven, he said. Well what happened when you were eleven that didn't happen when you were ten or fourteen,

and she looked down and she said well, that's what my grandfather started to rape me Vincent starts tool to everyone in the program. He discovered that fifty five percent of them upon their extreme weight in the wake of being sexually bees, which really startled him. He began to realize this thing that seems like it was just an irrational pathology. Putting on the two white, which is, of course, extremely dangerous in fact, was performing a function for these people. It was protecting them from sexual attention, a season put it. The wait is over the and that's what I needed to be, and so to quote a small study. So I've been through all the funding for the center for disease. Control of is the one of the most important bodies in the US and they stop and they get a lot of money so that every single patient that came to cause a permanent thing in the next year, anything with those headaches.

Broken leg, schizophrenia. Everything was given a question and the question off. Firstly, did any of these ten bad things happen to you when you were a child things like you know a sexual beast, as could be, how many calls have you had any of these problems as an adult things like at the city, addiction and then at the last minute they added depression and suicide attempt when the CDC added up the figures, they were absolutely stunned for every category of childhood trauma you experienced, you were radically more likely to become depressed and anxious. If you had had six of those categories of childhood trauma, he works three thousand. And one hundred percent, more likely to have attempted suicide as an adult, and somebody had none of those categories. You don't get things like this in science. Very often, one of the reasons I found this really hard. Who is Bick and I actually was very resistant to this, and it made me realize

why I had stayed with this simplistic idea that depression is just a chemical imbalance in uh, brains, 'cause you're, not even quite early on. I had suspicions that this story couldn't be right. I'm not an idiot right if it was just a problem in people's brains, why would it be rising so much right, but I one of the reasons I stayed with that stories when I was a child, my mother had been very ill and my dad had been in a diff. Country, and I had experience of very extreme so the beast from an adult in my life. I don't want to think about that. I don't I was still playing out in my life. I don't want to reckon with it. I don't want to think about the shame. I thought about that, but one of the reasons I stayed with this is because of what does ability discovered next. So if you'd gone to a doctor who filled in this questionnaire as everyone in San Diego had was with Kaiser Permanente, you talked to his told the next time you come in

say to the patient. Something like I see that when you were a child, you were sexually abused. I'm really sorry that happened to you. That should never have happened. Would you like to talk about it and a significant minority? People said I don't want to talk about it, but most people did on average the conversation lasted five minutes and then some of those people were told after a fade with therapist, to talk about it more. What they found was just that five minute conversation and nothing else led to a really significant fallen depression and anxiety and the people who referred onto a therapist hadn't, even bigger for depression and anxiety, or that tells us it fits with a much wider body of knowledge that we have. Is that Shane it catastrophic that human beings is devastating? For example, we know.

In the age crisis openly, gay men died on average two years later than closeted gay men, even when they got medical care at the same time. But shame destroys you and giving people ways to release shape is very powerful in that experiment. One of the. A woman in her 80s wrote to her doctor after they had this conversation, she'd been sexually abused. She said, thank you so much for asking. I thought. I was going to die and nobody would have been a, but again it was. It was in the child to Truman. It was when I was researching this topic, for which one of the nine courses are right now, and it looks connections of depression or anxiety. I was that I really got a sense of how on the call it was, but I was told that it was just a chemical imbalance. Thirteen years I was given chemical antidepressants, Never once did any talk to say to me. Is there

the reason you might feel this way, and I think this is really it's not that doctors are very over stressed and they have very little time to spend with their patients and have a lot of particular and as a society we've only given them one lever to pull right, which is kind of planted process. I mean in a little bit of therapy. In some cases, I've got so much anger with the doctor, but as a society, and as it Culture, we have to reckon with the scientific evidence about what is actually causing this crisis of depression. Alright, here we have to look at the best solution, so we have to offer more than just drug drug should remain on the table of course arguing for expanding the menu of options not for taking anything off the menu, but we have to do a much better job with this. You call it social prescribing, but you did find something very profound

that is available to everyone. What did you find? It was so profound, and why is it so profound, Garcia, correct, there's so many things that I learned I mean if you want to come to one that really affected me, so I went to Berkeley. I met this. This brilliant academic cooped up to prep, for he did with a colleague this repeat this process. That really blew my mind actually, so they want to figure out if you deliberately to

Why did you are going to spend more time trying to be happy? Would you become happier right so let's say that you Dan thought right from now on, I'm going to spend two hours a night trying to make myself happy. Would you actually get him happier and they looked at this in four countries- the United States, Russia, China and Japan, and what they discovered was totally fascinating in the United States. If you try deliberately to make yourself happier, you do not become happier, but in the other places. If you try to make yourself happier, you do become happy and they were like what's going on. Why and what they discovered was in the you know, it States and Canada and Britain, I'm pretty sure. If you try to make yourself happier generally, what you do is something for yourself: you try to get promotion, you buy something for yourself. He show up on Instagram, whatever it is generally in the other countries- Russia, China, Japan, if you tried to make yourself happier, you generally did some

talk to someone else, you need something for your friends, your family, your community, so we have an individualistic idea of what it means to be happy and they have a collective idea what it means to be and it turns out our model of happiness. Just doesn't work very well. Right is just not very effective. It's not the species we are, in fact Human beings have been individualists from the start. You and I will be having this conversation, could species with a died out if they would have been able to cooperate enough to to to to survive right. There have been a symbol collected very populist. And I've tried to very deliberately move myself that I realized that in the past, not every time, but a lot of the time when I felt these painful feelings coming generally. What I would do would be something for myself right. I would try to big myself up in some way now, when I feel there painful being is coming generally. What I tried to do is do something to someone well, so that don't mean you know, I'm not like Oprah. I don't turn up with a free car for someone I just leave

my phone at home and try to go and sit with them and listen to them. We live in a culture where people are so isolated with Sophie P. Are heard and seen that just turning up and being present with people is one of the most really being pressed, is one of the most powerful things we can do so there are lots of thing, like I, threw in in lost connections lots of things that people can do some of the individualistic things. Some of them are bigger things we need to fight for collectively, but but there are these solutions waiting present. There is evidence that they worked In your conclusion, for yourself and and and me this why this is so important for everybody everybody's touched by depression, everyone, will be is touched by it why someone around them- or they will for yourself and for everyone, listening and for everyone that reads this book for those p,

people that are grieving for those people that believe that they have some legitimate source of depression? What is the Good NEWS? What is you found? Well that your pain makes sense and there are answers to that pain and one of the places you know I could talk to you about the science all day, but one of the places most place to me was was it was in this incredible place. I went to where I learned so much of him, but in how much time do we have time? Because I didn't have the time to tell the story. Probably we have as much time as we need a great so in. In the summer, two thousand eleven a called Nuria changes. Quite religious was women in Berlin and notice. In her window, she lived on a big anonymous housing project where no one knew each other, and the notice said something like I'm getting evicted next Thursday night.

For my apartment that can't pay the rent anymore. So, on Wednesday night I'm going to kill myself, and you know this was a housing project in a slightly weird. It's quite. It was quite poor part of Berlin for a long time And basically, people who live there were either recent muslim immigrants, gay people or punk squatters who, as you can imagine, look to each other with a lot of incomprehension and no one noon area on this housing project. But people saw this sign in her window and they start to knock on her door and she was like they were like do you need any help and she was like screw you. I don't want to help, I'm going to kill myself and some people start talking in that kind of outside her apartment and they were like. You know, there's this big power, fair that runs into the center of Berlin. That goes through this project. It's called Coty and they were like. Maybe if we just blocked the road a day and we protest, because all of them were really angry, that that rents were going up so much as well. We just purchased and we we open area, maybe they'll, be some media coverage. You know you may be

maybe they'll last day in her apartment, so they decided to do it. So one saturday there, lock the road and they will blurry out. She was like what I'm going to kill myself anyway. I might as well do this and they did quite a lot of media coverage. That day in Berlin, local news came and at the end of the day the police turned up, and they basically said: ok, you've had your fine, take it down and the people there said well, hang on a minute. You have told Murray is she can stay here, and actually we want to rent freeze for all of us right so will take this down when we've been guaranteed that but they knew that the minute they left this barricade. The police were just tear it down anyway. So there was one of the people who live in Coty. What are my favorite people do? Tanya Gardner she's, one of the she was tiny miniskirts even in Berlin, winters, which shows real dedication, Tonya, Tonya had in her apartment. One of those things that makes a really loud noise for soccer matches a klaxon. So she

we got her, she put it down and she said: ok, what we're going to do we're going to draw up a timetable to man this barricade and if the police come to, take it down, let off the klaxon will all come out of our apartments and will stop them right so people who don't know each other all over Kati Start signing to do the night shift right, Tonya and Nuria were paired together to do the night shift. You cannot imagine what unlikely combination of People- Nuria, as I say, is a very religious muslim in a headscarf Tonya is the opposite the pad. I think they had the Thursday night shift. If I remember rightly, and the first few nights, they sit together. It's just for awkward that I know what to say. I think I've got nothing in common. Then they start talking about their lives, turns out. They had something extraordinary in Nuria had comfortable in when she was seventeen years old from her village in Turkey she came with her two kids, and Are there was she would make enough money, so she could then send back the money to host the. I would come and join us

been in Berlin for short time. She received word that her husband had died. She'd always told people to her husband had died about heart attack. She told Tonya something she never told anyone that actually her husband had. I did tuberculosis, which was seen as a disease of poverty, should be really ashamed. So she found herself alone in in Germany, not knowing anyone with two young children. Tanya Todd Nary is something about her life. She been thrown out at home when she was fifteen. She found her way to live in a squat for punk cincotti. She got pregnant when she was fifteen they've, both been alone in this frightening place, with young children when they were still teenagers themselves. They realized they had so much in common all of the coffee. There were these pairings, the people who would never have spoken to There was a young turkish german lad, called member who was seventeen loved hip, hop, kept in nearly thrown out ADHD the seventy year old grumpy white guy who loved Starlin right?

The old german guy started helping him with his homework when they did their shift right. This was happening all over Katic, opposite the housing project. There's a gay club called Zoo block by Gaia, Logical Ricard Stein, and to give you a sense of the Prive Club that Ricardo and was called CAFE, anal price. So these are pretty uncomfortable, is it guys right and when they first open the club, you can imagine it's a lot of religious Muslims who live there. They just match. The windows have been a lot of opposition to this club, assert block the gay club started, saying well, protest began. They gave loads of their furniture to the protest. They said after Well, I said you know you guys, could come and have your meetings for free and will give you food and drinks in in this gay club and at even the crime lsts in court to allot that we're not going to get these Muslims to come in sit on the posters, the fisting Dite trapped in a meeting about a purchase, but I actually everyone took the small steps to begin to understand each other. It has to be going on for about six months going to end up one.

Say the protest camp called tongue, cry and Tokai has he's in his early 50s was in his early 50s at the time he was kind of cognitive, difficult. Jesus. You can tell when you mean we've been living homeless, I think, and I help her out. Everyone in the camp loved him to cry. Has this great energy about him and and and he it's really popular with all three groups: the Muslims, the gays and the punks and He began living that it actually turned this barricade into a permanent structure and and- and they said to him- you know you could start sleeping here. If you want, you know a one. Fifty the street special in Berlin. It gets really cold. He started sleeping. They became one of the great fixtures at the protest movement and after he been there for about six months. One day the police came, they would do these in inspections and some card doesn't like it. When people all keys, he thought the police were arguing, so he went to hug one of them. They thought he was attacking them, so they arrested him. That was when they discover Tom client had been shot away. In fact,

yeah cause. But for twenty years, often in a literal padded cell he'd escape, can he found his way to copy so they took him back. The police took him back to this. Hospital and suddenly the whole difficulty protest. Movement turned into a kind of free, eight unkind on this psychiatric hospital in the suburbs. In the in in the psychiatrist, error like what the hell is this, they suddenly got all these Muslims, gays, punks, demanding the release of this person who they'd capture away for twenty years and remember early one of the one of the protesters there saying to them. You know, but he doesn't belong with you. He belongs because we love him. We want him back and tell him along. They got some car release. He now lives in Quincy. Many things happened at coffee at the kind of most important headline against if they got a rent free, not just for their entire housing project, but they launched a referendum initiative. The got the largest number of written signature is in the

history of the city of Berlin, but the last time I went to see Neria the woman who had been suicidal had put this notice in her window had started this whole protest. Nuria said to me: you know, I'm really glad I got to stay in my apartment, that's great thing, but I gained so much more than that I was surrounded all along by these amazing people, and I never knew another one of the turkish German went in there. I would've called Neriman, said me when she was a kid and she grew up in Turkey. She learned for what you call home is just your whole village right, the but then came to live in Germany and she really is that what you meant to call home is just your four walls in the western world right and then this whole process began and she said we got to know each other and this whole place became my home and she she realized the uh.

This time she's been living in the western world. She had been in some sense homeless that we need to do. We belong I don't sense at home in the west is too small to me a sense of belonging right and I kept thinking about. I mean I learned so many things in quality. I think I think I'm crazy 'cause. I just turn up every few months. Listen to them just cry 'cause. I thought it so moving, but one of the things that those people didn't need to be drugged. They needed to be together so many problems that seem insoluble when you are and isolated individual become soluble. When you have a tribe, when you have a group, you know Elyria was too bridal tunk. I was shy away in an actual padded cell that young sort of mimic had been nearly thrown out of school because they said he had ADHD all these problem they've been insoluble when they were alone were perfectly soluble when they were part of a tribe of people who cared about them and wanted to help them solve their problems and to me that that's one of the most

important things. I learned that if we carry on just being broken up an isolated, you know we will find some patch way solutions here in that, but the key is we need to reconnect with you to build a sense of home together. We need to. We can, because I tossed a guarantee, anyone listening this is, who is depressed and anxious. You are surrounded by people who are depressed and anxious and they had the same longings for connection the re connection that mean to be seen and heard that you have, and we've got to begin that process of a deep re connection. There are many solutions to depression and anxiety that I talk about in lost connections? But to me, that's the something emotional heart of the most important one. It's a wonderful book Johann. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about lost connections, uncovering the real causes of depression and the unexpected solutions. It's been an absolute pleasure,

you very much for those struggling light on- and I have to say and to my publisher- come look at that and say this. Anyone who, once anymore information about the book or to find out that kind of crazy mixture. People who praise the book from Hillary Clinton to Tucker Carlson, the TOP rated Fox news host too to so Arianna Huffington Glenn Greenwald Beach, they know that who wrote the off this huge range, different people, and also, if you want to take a quiz to see how much. You know about the real causes of depression and anxiety go to theirlostconnections dot com. You can also hear audio of interviews with loads of the people we've been talking about and some of the best experts in the way all those people in cotija and a load of other other great people who spoke to me for the book. That's wonderful! I was going to ask for that. So thank you for doing that, and thank you very much. I didn't interview recently where, at the end of the interview they said to me, you know: what's your twitter, what's your facebook, what's

Instagram anyway, wasn't it up and go to the books, the top of the lost connection to combat the end they were like. I will choose snapshot, and I said I am a thirty. Nine year old match. I will have a LAS Vegas to provoke my work. I draw at e thirty nine year old man on Snapchat is probably a pedophile right. You should be married suspicious of them. So, unfortunately, you did not speak much about taxes. They would have to give a horrified answer off at such. As thank you very much your hand. This been wonderful. It's a wonderful book lost connections. Thank you very much for taking the time. The call us all the way from London to this program. Thank you very much have a great evening and hey don you again, it's always a joy to talk thanks so much to bye. Thank you. Cheers.

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