Hi, I'm Jay, Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com right. Subject, change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of cost information conditions, equal housing lender license in office and the number three hundred and thirty hi, I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken loans. Thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year, fixed rate mortgage, the rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com break. Subject: change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of cost information conditions, equal housing lender license in office and that number three

Yeah. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker K every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the more shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer them happy. Good evening this is your host Dan surpass key for the program. True murder, the motion can killers in true crime: history, authors that have written about them in February, one thousand nine hundred and seventy five

nine year old Marcia Trimble, hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com break. Subject: change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of cost information conditions. Equal housing lender is operating the number three hundred and thirty left their house Nashville deliver girl scout cookies in the neighborhood. She never returned after massive but fruitless search. Her body was discovered on Easter, Sunday outrage and horror grip community of Nashville, but the murder Vesti Gation was frustrated at every turn. The case went cold for three decades until it was finally solved. In January, one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven Herbert Blitstein was found

murdered in the living room of his LAS Vegas townhouse. An attorney is mob. Insider fat Herbie had pursued loan sharking another brackets. For decades now, blitstein had been dispatched gangland style by three bullets to the back of the in what appeared to be a classic contract killing, but the deity details of killed him and why turned out to be much more complicated. The real motives and circumstances remain murky to this day. These are As2 examples of the riveting stories assembled by best selling criminologist arberry flowers, in this unparalleled collection of some of the talk to crime writers in the world. There are seventeen curators, including Amanda, Lamb Borough bear our very flowers, Cathy Scott, Patricia Springer, Harold Sector and Catherine Rams, lend spanish murder cases from the beginning of the 20th century, two today masters of to crime, Chile

stories and murder of murder and the Moroccan edited by our very flowers. The book where brigade featuring a seething, his masters of true crime, edited by my special guest, arberry flowers, journalist and bestselling author welcome back to the program are berry flower hello, Dan, I'm very happy to be here with you this evening. Well, it's always did you. You've always got a twisted, an bizarre tale for our audience. So in this way you Eve assembled a crime track team of the some of the best selling poppers and some of the biggest names in true crime for the twenty or thirty years. Maybe if you could, if you, if you could don't just tell us who these seventeen, as I mentioned, alluded to in the in this synopsis, who are the seventeen authors that are contributors to masters of true crime,.

Bulgaria, well, these are very talented and there's something war. When a group of authors, including Harold Sector, Catherine, rambling girl, beer. And David Kathy Scott Robert Scott, Patricia Springer. Then the rose and gray grant. I'm sorry. The roman grants of Robert Jaywalk Amanda, Lamb, Michel Mcfee. Camille Kimball, they laugh then Goble Douglas Jones and Jane James. And you d, better borough, bear your day yet their egg

another up a yet bear also has a great that's a great team. Now, some of those most of those names are familiar to people, especially for this audience. I've been reading true crime for a long time and weather by just walk from a coma. You will recognize most of those names and you know for anybody. Is it a program as well as they may have noticed, there's probably A6 or eight of those authors that are in your book have appeared on this program too, so very, very good guests and willing to talk about about their books and the particular cases they were in I didn't know. What was the the editor, and you also are contributor in this as well. Aren't you it's right now? What was sort of the? I know? It's criteria, obviously you say: ok, I have a wish list of some really great offers that I'd like to assemble

for this. But what was your general idea? What was the theme that you were put it matters to crime chilling, tells a story he's a murder in the macabre. What was the theme that you want to adhere to? At least you know thematic here. What was the theme to this book for yourself, our initial idea? Yes, our world. The theme basically was to try to assemble the very best. True crime, writers that I could in the world I wanted to. Fine writers, who were not only bets others but right through my respected in that their mark on the agenda, and so I set about the task of

tracking down writers who fit that criteria, some of them like already knew as friends and others. I added my ears over the years and we were finally able to become ran through my contacting them in their being greatest enough to agree to participate in the centrality. So you didn't really have you knew that? Ok, here's there all good crime, writers and an even for those people. That may not know a lot of these writers have shied away. There are writers, it will shy away from certain subject matter yourself in not included in terms of yourself and of you know will say that Harold check it is written about serial killers and and ramsland who's written about, serial killers and that girl barrows ring about circulars. So there's a lot

one of the authors that are will say that not only have written quite a few true crime book, but also I've, never shyed away from the more bizarre and the more graphic story. Would that be true? Yes, yes, it would be. I also was hoping to find some rain. With these particular writers. In other words, I wasn't looking specifically for those who have written about serial killer, but I wanted to those who have written about historical to crime, for example in contemporary to crime you crying abroad. Was it true, DR tales in United States. Mainly I wanted cases they talked about to be gripping, something that could hold the readers and also offered in very interesting interesting. That needed to be told

Now, for those that are that are listening, this is obviously, if we have seventeen authors weed, we do not have local three hundred page book from each author put together so tell us. Is this considered true short stories? Tell us what you would call this collection. I well, I would call this collection seventeen true stories Denmark? True, they really happened in there. Just can more or less condensed versions of to climb book. I just tell my page can be packed to a short story if you're, talented enough, someone

have a beginning middle end in and have it just this exciting as the book. In this case, you have seventeen different stories in one book and all going in different directions. As far as the circumstances, killers investigation, the motives motives- often the outcome now: the historical crime. Why? What? What worried? What would you are we talking about it? The expand, the range from in terms of time you said, these are some examples of historical crime, give us for it Apple one of stories they concerning historical crime in masters of true crime and tell us why you pick this and tell us a little bit about the story itself. Ok! Well, a great example of her

factors of story hurled is the dean of historical, true crime. Writing. Professor of american literature, is tell takes place in April of nineteen thirty six, that's the earliest story, collection eyes about the rape and murder writer name Nancy. Due to ten. In New York City be cause quite a media frenzy at the time and check your does a wonderful job in giving you a great sense of time and place, and so that one. Perfect example of historical crime by one of the best two crime writers, historically speaking, yeah

Easy's, most well known are one of the last thing he's known for is the a Z 280z, a z, serial killers, the encyclopedia serial killers- exactly exactly now tell us another example of historical crime and why you picked this next story? Anne? What this story is a little bit about this story. Ok, well, Catherine, Mandolin, well, respected forensic psychologists. Does superb historical piece about italian female serial killer. Leonardo, can't you see who murdered three women between one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine, and one thousand nine hundred and forty before this, bring them in turning the victims into soap may seem a bit bizarre, but she was able to do this

chopping up bodies and adding perfume and some of the people that were the recipients of the soap, not the wiser, despicable that was, but it was very interesting case and perfect example of AL female serial Key the rear, relatively speaking, they are out there and when their bad things really bad, absolutely diabolical. In fact, now coming about a girl bears story. People listen to the program. Girl who's been on numerous times, has his own program an outlaw radio, crabs, uncensored and courses on now heart fishers, american horrors with two crimes reunited with

his original host dawn. So tell us what borough Bear contributed to this book masses of true crime? I gave a girl. There is really a terrific right Erin. We I've been on his show, for a low radio show in his written, fascinating, true crime, about a mail bomb in Alaska in September, one thousand, nine hundred and ninety one, and that killed a forty four year old. Name David Curve and seriously injured his wife, Michelle case involved a lot of different pieces of the puzzle, including the U S, Postman

action, service investigation and it had a host of bizarre and shady characters, as this case reached the scripting conclusion. So it's It's really interesting tales, I'm sure readers will. Hang on every word right from the start, as a mail bomb goes off and causes death and destruction. In fact, if I can point out that the key to the thing for a moment I wanted to come in, we see on the movie The massacre in Aurora last week made sure that touched every one, Sergio despicable ACT by his government.

And then, of course, that brings most of us back to the Columbine Mass murder also Colorado. In April nineteen. Ninety nine! Well, what most people are the unaware of that? There was an equally horrific case of mass murder but also curtain color out of way back in November of one thousand nine hundred and fifty five, I read an ebook and audiobook on this case called mass murder in the sky, the bombing of flight, six hundred and twenty nine anyway you're lying flight exploded over Denver that year and as dynamite was planted bored by a guy named Jack Gilbert, Graham, he actually dynamite in his own motives. Luggage, and this explosion did killed. Everyone aboard forty four people in all.

Including the crew and passengers, and so on, it's like what goes around comes around. You tend to think that. Mass murderers and serial killers are mom. And they phenomenon when, in fact, a lot of these things just continue to recycle, certainly, certainly You are the editor of this now some people might not know, and maybe I'm not fully aware of exactly what you're you're wrong was in all of this other than writing one stories yourself and assembling these authors. What what did your, what did editing entail specifically for this book itself? Well editing, really and tell the entire process, which was first two. So the concept to a publisher.

At the editor, and then I had to assemble the writers, and I had to get the guide them into. What did you write about your we talked about it with each I talked about, but each of them to get my ideas and what they thought they might like to write about and then I had to edit. Little the editor story said some of them in Rome and go back and forth with Monday, Let you know make sure everyone was satisfied, including the publisher. So it's quite a challenge. Really to be an editor of collection. Well, you get different personalities and. You have to keep everyone together and on time, keep the project on schedule, but it was

more than worth. Well, then, all the contributors with two professionals- and they all rode, Marvel the story that I think really makes this a must have anthology Now, what the term Amanda Lamb right about she's been a guest a couple times on the programme, what a demand a lamb contribute to matters at your grand. Amanda wrote a very interesting. Peace on the murder of a trouble. Eighteen year old name met so the men in Weight County North Carolina in November, two thousand and eight I was fuelled by jealousy and avert triangle involving other teenagers. So she took on the team. Murder and those very up

dressing in suspense for peace. Now we have Robert Scott and Kathy stop for people that I don't think the related at all, but Cathy Scotsmen Programme and hoping to get Roberts gaudy. He things coming on. At some point. I tell us first about Roberts, he's a well known, true crime, writer, again one of the guys that really get some real great the story. Some heavy stories tell us about Roberts gotten his story that he contributed to the your book. Yes, Robert is a veteran crime lighters. It friend of mine and he visited the hunting and mysterious case

but three people brutally murdered in the remote town of Keddie California, in a vented cap in twenty eight in April, one thousand nine hundred and eighty one, this uh sort of almost come folklore over the years. Uh this particular case is one of those type with you over the years. Are the victims were knifed, bludgeoned and strangled and is really a terrible situation. If one could imagine in the case of still continues to affect people today when talking about it. There are many, these cases really do. They know you deceived authors right about things

For thirty years old- and they do say that you know the community is still affected significantly by some of these people, and then it's no wonder it's no wonder, add my own story contribution to this anthology very interesting in and of itself it's about a serial killer, Donald Miller, we happen to you- graduated from my own alma Mater Michigan State University with the degree in criminal justice in the nineteen seventy before becoming the add on called the other. His case will be hit home for me. Does. He is doing his thing murdering such resulting young women round image you can't is including his fiancee established very to see someone

did graduated with a degree in criminal justice, which I have degrees in criminal justice as well would turn to the dark side, rather than be a positive contributor to law enforcement and criminal well. We do know that some of these people, these psychopathic killers, are actually just as fascinated I'll, be it in a much different way to the same things that you might or I might be fascinated with as well. There gravitate ng towards this very interesting subject that they have as well through criminology. Yes, jack. Often you'll see a lot of children when arrested. They get books on criminal psychology and serial killers, another true crime, books and no home so

Clearly, a lot of them are fascinated and a perverse way with crime. Violence is killers, well they're, not much different than some of us as well, but in again, again much different side of the coin. Now, with this Donald Miller, I just wanted. I was interested because I've heard this before with you that now you were, you were in cool to be the criminologist. At the same time, Donald Miller was on his reign, is campaign of terror is, is that it in its back? There was, I was. I was a freshman when he first in doing this, and I were vaguely aware of it to be honest with you at the time. It was only a little after I'd gone into

graduate school that I begin to hone in on this case and realize just tell despicable it was, and just how many people have been killed by this guy. So it was kind of eerie to think that I'm I could have crossed past them at one time or another. One camp is, and you never been wiser to it ass. He was going around and picking his victims for birder. What is it name of the title of your story. The title of my story is uh. Terror in EAST Lansing, Mi State University, serial killers. Ok, now this I'm not so familiar with Douglas Jones. Tell us a little bit about Douglas Jones and

The story that he contributed to the book. Gay Douglas zones is a lawyer and an accomplice litigator. He wrote in absorbing story about the escape from for too long Prison in Tennessee, Ronald Freeman and James Click on February, the 18th one thousand nine hundred and eighty four Ann. Appan nearest gate. They went on to murder a man named Paul Windrow and Cheryl terrorize, his wife Elizabeth came to their house, even though the prison authorities and other law enforcement had thoroughly searched the area and given the coast is clear to this family making them feel the day you know, could let down the guard, but unfortunately, the to escape canvas

had hidden in a hole in the ground. Then we're able to stay there for two or three days till the coast is clear. Then they broken. This house and murdered the husband and threatened to cure the wife on more than one occasion Fortunately, she was able to survive this ordeal, but justice don't take awhile for justice to be served Foley for this terrific crime and it just another indication to foul prisons.

Are there to hold prisoners, but some prisoners can still find a way out in if their violent prisoners, they can cause out of trouble from the outside, and this is example which they did just that and call someone who's life unnecessarily sure. But it does happen. You know the prison system is certainly one that makes it difficult for most pretty to escape by every now, and then they find a way out and do that to deal with this and hope that the authorities can catch them sooner or later before. Something like that happen. Well, that's.

Everybody is familiar with and especially Kevin Sullivan will be familiar with the TED Bundy case escape twice and continued continued to wild least once once continued to mayhem, but did escape twice successfully. No tell us a little bit about Michel method be and her story. I know that she has done us some historical crime. If I'm not mistaken, to tell us about what the wood story she brought to the project. So Michele Mcphee is an investigative reporter in Boston and she did a very interesting story on a boxer named Joey tourists. Who went to prison for murder in nineteen? Seventy nine after giving manager, in LOS Angeles, he was released years later, due to a technicality.

I'm going on to become an informant uh and the federal undercover investigation into boxing corruption organized crime- so this was really absorbing tale that Michelle put together because it. Touched upon the boxing and some of the. Things that are going on that may not b is well known by people who are just most. People just tend to why Boxing matches not think about some of the things that may be going on illegally behind the things, so she that is fine, dad and does a good job, and I think that redefined still find this interesting.

Yes, absolutely behind the scenes of what really goes on in world. We a couple movies, but at this point, that the story really bring Sacha rings at home. Now here's an author that I've seen the name, but I'm not that familiar with her career and tell us about and Davison what she brought to the project. Ok well Carol is a scottish, true crime. Writer she's sounds very good.

Books, women who killed one of them. She writes a really chilling tales about british arsonists and serial killer Peter Dinsdale's, who was only twelve years old when he claimed his first victim during the early 1970s Dinsdale was responsible for the deaths of at least fifteen people. As a result of arson, he claimed early on in pretty much stuck with this, that the fires that started at random because he loved setting fires but had meant to kill anyone,

but of course, that didn't boops hold up in a court of law. Alright, I see with actually initially charged with twenty six death, but is that men have downward ventually determinant then caused by accident. So you get off the hook there, but still left. Fifteen people dead and Carol Ann Davis does up great job and telling this story if one of the youngest serial killers around when he perpetrated in just cause I'm Peter then they'll, interestingly enough, to deal with on trial another

serial killer, Peter Sutcliffe known as the Yorkshire Ripper with bright, lasted around their time. So I gave the british public two very different types of children to absorb. Yes, absolutely is now tell us a little bit about turn. Scott in the story that she contributed to this book. Jesse journalists in blogger wrote. An intriguing the tone of the LAS Vegas murder of former mob enforcer Herbert listing again,

we were in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety seven. His death, though tide to them up little dispute there, but the circumstances of death and exactly killed him come by because of killed bargains with harder to come by because of plea that so Kathy does a good job of telling the story and the can you draw your own conclusions when somebody facts at this life sometimes and as she always has

yeah, she always has the inside track on mob stories that people haven't heard about and gains this incredible access to so I'm sure she's done again. Yes, yes, she did a great job on one book, called murder of a mafia daughter. Yes, we have around the programme had run. The programme would talk to that great book, not tell us about Patch Springer and what she brought to the project. Gay produces Springer. A newspaper report I wrote about the shocking murder of Victoria Lozano in Denton in July of two thousand and two she was Found dead at her, how

most in her husband a police, detective phone, then the crime, and then there was a vesti gation and the cope. It will surprise a lot of people, I think, and then others will graph not be so surprised and given the fact that in this day and age, there's really little. That can surprise us that much because so many these crimes happens with all range of perpetrators. That. We can do almost become numb to surprise anymore. Tat, what was sea weed I again image, caddies got Patricia Springer

These people have been on the program now another regular gas. On the programme is Linda Rose and grant. Can you tell us what story she brought to the collection yet Linda investigative reporter in Boston wrote about the murder of a nurse name, Patricia. Why stuck in April of two thousand and two, her body was removed from a pickup truck chilly waters, Bruford Lake New York. That was

shocking crime when it occurred in culprit will also turn people in some mistakes and others will perhaps be able to pick out the culprit just because in this day and age. I think true crime readers are perhaps more astute and being able to put the pieces together once they have clues and direction. Oh sure, make a calculated and be right on the money?

have Ireland without definitely be gauged in coming to the conclusion that they do now tell us about Laura James and what she brought to this project. Ok, lower James is a two crime historian she's also a lawyer. She wrote a very fascinating tales on russian counters. We are current Knopf Gov, who was arrested in Venice in one thousand nine hundred and seven actually uh she's. That's our oldest case. That's been studied, written about ass. She was put on trial for calculating the murder of one of her lovers, Maria and achieve

international notoriety as a result of this case. She was attractive in sex appeal. Then she fifty image, you might have a lovely counters and unfortunately, she used that to her advantage in a negative way and, as a result, someone but it's very interesting story and Laura does thrifty. Job of take goes back in time and telling us the story of the counties and surrounding her life and circumstances of the dates that help too set up this crime.

The aftermath is, she still operate, the blog clues clews so that she does operated, but she's been a little lax lately in terms of keeping up to date, information on it, but as far as I'm aware, she still ask the site and matter fact. She now that she's contributed to this anthology sees indicated to me that in tracing for her too get back with it and bring the glues her Literary blog back up to date, scrape be good. Every little bit helps now another purpose another author that has appeared on the program and another true crime guy Ronald J Watkins appears in your book.

Is it your crime? Tell us a little bit about Ronald G Watkins in the story. He contributed to this collection. Ronald blackens is better into true crime: author for well written about the murder of fifty five year old, wealthy socialite gene to re enter Phoenix Arizona State back on April. The first. One thousand nine hundred and ninety eight, and then there were numerous suspects as to Guild there. He was the widow and it was one of those cases of wealth greed and Hunger for having, but she has what she he

in just up to desire to commit violence. He was really a brutal crime. I mean every murder is but some worse than others. As far the method, two perpetrated Lyman. So hers was not a death that it was easy to swallow and thorough investigation to finally able to cut through the suspects. In now, the true culprit, this crime. Sir, that's good now: can you tell us about the Lee Lapland? I'm Genesis right, but unfortunately not very familiar with it all the lovely

and what story did this author contribute to the collection or the last thing. Is the former police detectives, an expert on please procedure he's also the founder of the, police academy. Annual conference that brings together writers and experts in various facets of police work. Here. Written details about the mass murder of a family by a killer named James Rupert in Hamilton, oh and then the Brutal murder, twenty years later,. A young woman named Tina Mud that occurred on

very thing Street treat as fire mass murder, so laughing does a great job and telling stories in one and linking them together. So that almost makes the street itself seem haunted. The other side, there are the true one better hunted by their willingness to commit crimes, a dead fatalities, whether this time, more previous time they have to own, is always on the killers. Now do what they do, but some of them till they raise your hatred or greed or jealousy everything gets better

them and they do things that ultimately they're going to have to pay the price for one way or the other. Well then, and then there are those as many people listen to the program and you can attest to as well that are just. There is no logical explanation, not rage not jealousy, not revenge, it's evil. There are. Certainly he would agree that certain people are just evil. Yes, yes, I would say that in so in this case, in Aurora, Colorado suggest that doesn't seem like he had a specific mean the alleged killer, something like he had a specific motivation mother than two committed murder and have the impact it did. By doing.

During the showing of this particular movie and making a statement that he knows well, the avenue outlets. Listen, everyone would be talking about it ass. The true motive leave for mass jewellers that type, but he still face of evil the willingness to do this in no, irrespective of the consequences for themselves, while their proud of it. It's an achievement for some of these bullets. It's now, I guess one. One of these people has led another person to do it, and so we have the LUCA Nada. We have the disquiet about Batman Premier shortly after we have people, it's it's. Sort of a domino effect where one person is these twisted people who

We have nothing going on in their lives or they, you know, delay genes are grandeur, but regardless they were they're going to go out in a blaze of glory they're going to get their infamy anyway. They can so they really are it's a narcissism, Ghana, not really it's sure there. It could be motivation that a lawyer comes up with later that this happened in this child with that happening. Now, in hindsight, we we think this could have happened in this might have been effect, but in ray in reality the person knew what they were going to do and they knew why they were going to do it. It's just to be famous just to have that fifteen minutes of fame it's Incredibly, phenomena really is true, and that is really are despicable, really dead. We have people with this mindset in

since the accessibility of firearms is there for anyone who wants them legal or otherwise. That makes it that much scarier in his cater or is he legally purchased his weapons? So you can't really look at the fact that he I mean he didn't have the legal weapon They could point Jordan, gunboats are concerned, but.

Tough, when you have individuals like that who stay above the law enough over the years that they can purchase. Guns as many as they want legally and then decide term deviate, and so that's almost impossible scenario to stop in our society. Yes, of course, are able to get guns illegally. Taken still do the same things, then you get so many soft targets, like movie theaters. Shopping malls, restaurants, that you know. I just hope that we don't have more these types of things and those types of venues that hi can do a lot of damage before the culprit is stopped.

Absolutely and in a place like Canada. We we have strict gun laws, but you know criminals listen to those laws and they attain illegal weapons and use it on so it's a big debate on well, I've heard already posted commented video, just somebody would have had a gun in the theater, then they could have shot. This was shooting people, but we all know what that kind of can lead to next time or everybody's packing packing guns, packing heat in the mood the theater it's. It is a really sad commentary on society. You gotta bring a gun to a movie theater right. Yes, that would be very scary. I don't see that is indeed you at all people. Did you notice the reason why they may end up shooting from one

accidentally, the yard, or this isn't? Oh well, why West Moistened? Doesn't, I think like it? I fear by it. But it is the other, is a phenomena buried, it so that I I'm very interested in the Luka Magnotta case just because the case that I was involved with had this celebrity obsessed Cool path, and then shortly after we had the mark Twichell case in Edmonton, where a filmmaker lured, someone and filmed alluring and killed his person for the experts, and send to enhance its filmmaking so he's another artist and the killer I was involved with. You know, fancy himself as an artist and and they revelled in their murders in and their fantasies and there in the killing itself, though, we have look like not almost seems like he's influenced by those people that got Preston

he's influenced by all of those people that got press and he was mailing the body part. So the politicians and killed the item online and videotaped it and posted it. So we're getting this. As you know there, you know the 70s was some kind of gold age of serial killers, your Bundy's in and nearby CK's. All these people in the 70s and 80s, but you know the thing this is that you also have the the phenomenon. Now that these people, I think, aren't waiting till they've killed fifty people to get that sort of rec that sort of medal of honor fifty people, but they want to. They want to condense all that infamy with one sp calculare incredible over the top world attack mention getting crime its

raising this new phone and that's what I think is happening. Well, you may have a point theorem in this new internet age cell phones, cell phone cameras- are, you know they can gain that infinitely, much quicker in today's two and they could in the 70s and 80s and 60s. So I think that, many offenders and would be offenders season,

but as a means to give them that infamy of these four time they don't have to kill ten people before they can begin to established themselves in the public media size. So that frightening and I hope that more social control controls can, if you put in place, back in three people from acting out on their dark impulsive. Well, I think what we're going to do is just like the profile, an again profiling is like they say, is only really a tool. I think what we're going to be able to say is that profiling always needs to be updated and we're going to see a profile of a certain type of character. You know the old of others.

Serial killer kills animals or tortures animals. When he's young might very well just have come from you know, three or four or five killers in the 70s and 80s, who admitted that that's what they did, but when you talking about you, maybe other factors involved, whether you know people we to play, and when we're young and there were squirrels- and there was a you know we were now. Wherein sort of a rural area of a person grows up in a major metropolis, a major said They might not even have access to those animals that they could readily torch I think the profile has to be updated to take into consideration. In the new fascination with everyone being fascinated with celebrity. I mean everybody's on a reality, show or wants to be on one or wants to attend one. So we have that ass, a nation with celebrity anyway Narses tourism again? What's a narcissistic?

actor, who looks at himself for a living. What does narcissism and what's malignant narcissism and How far can it go and again where it will weaken committed Kate with people in an instant but we're more detached and probably ever in terms of we could be isolated where there own thoughts with their own deviations and who knows what people could plan and becoming a short order. So I think those things can be a new profile from studying these people, when you have the opportunity, if they're going to be forthright and be able to say this is what I've done, and this is why I did it. If we can do anything from these senseless crimes is to make try to make some sense. And try to create a profile so that when we see this at a young age, I don't know

but we can't lock up a person for their potential, but at least we can see it in its budding development. Possibly that's true, yes, and I also feel that uh Would you take the ban regarding liberty in saying that there are brats, just as many people who are attracted to influence. Individuals as though, Better under law abiding side of celebrity me, for example, you get Charles Manson, probably get more males in Cancun, then a lot of celebrities actors in

updates and such and same is true for other killers. Other people who do despicable things there's a segment of the population that may be harboring dark thoughts themselves that are fascinated with these types of criminals that gives future criminals few for their own possible entry into criminality. Becaus. Famous something that crosses all sectors in today's society and now that we have so many means to make people famous. Like you cities reality Shows, including on child like investigation discovery, they get a line up.

True crime. Reality type shows twenty four slash, seven, and so you are sorted. Feeding into the mentality of people who are able to look at these types of things, not just. For entertainment value, but because they are legitimately attracted to these types of criminals and the type of. Thought they may have for emulating them? Well, that's that being said, but it's always a matter. Which the chicken or the egg you know the thing? Is it be like saying that if you reported on war, look what's happened? They keep, they keep happening. You see, You know. So I think the thing is it is. It is history, and it is news it's

how it's handled for the very most part. True crime writers are at least sympathetic to the victim where You know. Certainly the courts might not be in the media might not be and they handle. I take issue with real. Sensitivity and they are also on the side of the law. Basically, the police and prosecutors often time cooperate and and to provide information, and but like yourself or in communication with police officers or ITALY. There is a second Action in terms of people are all on the same side in terms of this, in terms of the we're, no true crime, with with some villains, not. See there their there celebrity opportunity, but I mean

we're doing things before Jack Ripper Jack. The ripper made the papers so, like you say in all throughout history, these people have done it without that, Without the allure of fame itself, so the thing is is which one first, the chicken or the egg. Well, the crime came before true crime. So right so I can say that is true, as it seems like. Soc just creates criminals, irrespective of the. Conditions variables that may be involved. You could make a charm case that in today's high tech society it has created a new breed of criminal death.

Influenced by the HI tech world and being on Facebook and Youtube and. Someone's cell phone camera but at the same time. There were certainly a lot of killers and other violent offenders in the past that had none of the advantages of today's society and still were driven to commit crimes that you know in the history books today, so it's the reality is that we just live in a world where some people going to do these,

no matter what can drink you may put on them as a society or as individuals. I used to feel that if you had period too. Brought you up the right way of your paid attention to you when you were young and did everything you know, try to live life law abiding life to set an example for you dead. You would follow suit and you know the parents didn't do those things their children more likely to end up challenge an authority in becoming deviant, but I now feel that. It really comes down to the individual. You can have all the advantages in the world growing up, including well And still end up being a killer of cereal, killer of mass murderer just comes down.

The individual in there mentality an their influences and what they just. Sometimes. I suppose substance abuse also can play a big role, Many of these criminal near being handed him, fluence of one thing or another, but it comes down to the free will from top to bottom and what the person is willing to do. Even this senseless is a lot of these. Things seem to the average person to the ones in Boston, these various crimes they just are more driven by what they want to do with them.

But what they feel they will achieve from their acts and then whatever the future- oh they'll, just deal with it. Yes, but you know like we're just going back just a little bit too you several people have access to the internet. The internet now is just what major were television. Was one Manson for this one, stick on his forehead and and knew that the cameras we're going to going to be there, and he was on time magazine- and you know every newspaper in every magazine in every television screen the night, the night stalker did the same thing Richard Ramirez. Ah, you know it's not to say that an end richer. America's is another person that is inundated with requests for marriage and and correspondence from beautiful women.

Seemingly you know credible people, not in main people, are good, looking attractive, a well heeled people, the What you mention two as it is a very, very interesting part of the phenomena which I will add to my repertoire in terms of trying to way this new phenomena. Is it there all these followers for this Luka Magnotta? There's one thousand four hundred facebook fans and there's I've, read the posts, there's guys a leading pledging allegiance Satan and and saying what a great guy look on minorities and people want to have sex with some people want to meet him. This new fund, I'm not to that. What you had mentioned is these people that are in touch with their dark side, they're, not afraid to go there. They want that as an experience and we just don't know what that in touch with the dark side, willing to experiment with the dark side. What that really means so you're, seeing some

you know, murders where teenagers involved in sure that one teenager two teenagers were involved in the actual act, but other people are indifferent to it even happening so we're seeing sort of phenomena. I think which is explained by what you said, that these p color in touch with their dark side, explore the dark side and who what can happen as a result of that right? Well, you people like me, not a factory tortured animals prior to some of this other acts of murder and dismemberment and such that's often a clue in and of itself, when you they to torture, kill animals, that's a good indicator that you willing to do the same thing to human, and so that's one thing that should be taken very seriously.

People are doing these things, especially when you're young it shouldn't be something that should be just blown office. You know just experimentation or something with no future implicate. Absolutely absolutely their serial killers. Another type is well sexual killers. Had their training with most importantly and graduated to human. While there is some sort of desensitization, it obviously goes on some, so you know a will. There did they have no feelings towards like. Say, what would a normal child would have is nothing but affection for us small cuddly animal, but a person, that's capable of torturing a cat and

killing a cat laughing about it. You will. You would probably want to take notice of that individual right, yes, but it really difficult to put the finger on something that again give us a sure fire, I mean that's the surefire indication as far as I'm concerned, anyone that would abuse animals, but as far as in general terms being able to predict it killed her or a rapist. Apart from such things as being abused as a child, many rapists have been victims, Joe manifestation or physical, or so they clearly told the all clear.

As well as through tat. It does me good points, and things like TAT said, the prince said is too readily used by defence, a journey to try to mitigate the crying gyro I you know. I always wonder. I always wonder that there must be something inherently If there is only one explanation, when you say that it did the vast, you know that a rapist to have someone, A convicted of sexual assault is often most often have some evidence, or at least they claim to have been sexually abused. Now, if all or a fraction, a small fraction of all the women who have been sexually assaulted or raped or molested,.

We're then to commit acts of sexual assault or rape or violence. We would have an epidemic of women molesting assaulting and raping children and girls and men. I don't know what we would have an epidemic of male. When we were much all the men who graduate to have been sexually assaulted or. Victims of the actual you when they were young, you hear about these three abusing children, all the time and other victims of this Despicable behavior, where to become sexual

Occurs and murderers, then we lose all, but the fact that the vast majority of people, irrespective of their history, when they were victims of child abuse or night or even abuse in a dark, they still do not turn to cry. So it takes a certain person certain trigger an approach, to be willing to commit these various acts of violence and other forms of criminality. Every time I hear about a case where husband is killed, his wife or wife is killed. The husband or boyfriend is killed his girlfriend a minutes so since, This with all the people out there that are available for people to move on to so many people,

just to not let go you never go at the person is either no. I'm the only one for you. There will be no one else, lightning, just how many of those types of cases. Are in the news on a daily basis, so it's absolutely really sad that people willing to take it to this extreme. When you get so many other opportunities. I'm sure you remember that old song too many efficiency and that's true that there are so many people lose perspective without of killers, lose their perspective entirely, and so they commit these types of domestic murders. And then you know what

They get they get arrested in far more often than not, and then they're going to spend the rest, your life in prison or beyond death row. So it's just frightening to think that we keep going through the cycle over and over and we can't seem to break free of it in society and that's cause of concern be cause. You they're, not building prisons, fast enough to be able to hold people that are doing these types of things, not to mention the other types of killers, mass murderers and serial killers, terrorist jewellers, his sister

It can be disillusioning, but at the same time as the criminologist am, I still feel that most people are basically good and are willing to. Stay on the right side of the law, even if they may have some impulse is to step over the The line towards his dark sides is still able to control. This fact is still: even a small percentage of societies is unable to control the dead small percentage, still up to a lot of people, a lot of people committing crimes of murder in sexual assaults and the law enforcement is certainly stretched in this country. So they can, Do their job and do it as well as they can, but it's like that, like

that are coming out of the ground. Someone steps on them, then others just keep coming from cracks in the sidewalks. So that's, unfortunately, the what law enforcement is up against in this day in aged they're, locking up these offenders is fast begin, but others keep taking their places. He find himself motivated to commit these acts, environments that keeps people like Maine in business since there's never a shortage, true crime cases that deserves to be shared with the public, because the public really, I think true crime books, certainly have a place in the scheme of things. As far as writing is can.

Because people often wear blinders to some of the things that for the happy, really need to know the truth, are occuring, that there's fiction and there's real life and true crime books by and large deal with real life crimes that are often far worse than the worst fiction crimes in killers. So absolutely, yes, we need to keep it keep going, so people can recognize some of the signs, perhaps of crime and criminals and maybe build fence that from happening to them for those that they love. Yes, while we can only, we can only hope for the best meantime we can capture it all in. I got it all in books like this,

everyone that we want speaking about in the last hour, or so it's a master. Of true crime, chilling stories of murder and the macabre edited by journalist and author and criminologist arberry flowers. So thank you very much for coming on the program berry. I just wanted to mention as well, because I am a celebrity obsessed person myself. I just wanted to mention that was very thrilled to have my name on the back of the book here and I'll. Just read what what it As for those that might be interested, listen to the programme tonight federal cases psychopathic killers, unwitting victims, along with the very best writers make for exciting no holds barred soon to be true crime, classic that's dancer, pesky, host of true murder. So thank you, much before, including that very that was a big shrill, seeing my name in print there. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about masters of true crime, seventeen of the biggest most important and best

True crime writers in the world, including our arberry flowers, master. Crime. It's a great book and its promises, this books, but I'm I'm sure that it's available tell us it's available in E book in paperback, and it's available in. Trade paper bag at the moment, both online and in your local booksellers, but it will be available in ebook, an and audio in the next few weeks. So all right keep an eye out on it and Amazon and Itunes and birth, noble, etc. Inaudible because some fascinating stories and wanted to be available in any format that one chooses to listen or read it. That's great now, that's really good, because you don't see a lot of the last couple of years since Ebook just come out, you've seen haven't seen too many releases of audio books, and I know that there was a that was a big growing audience as well. Was the audio book for people are traveling,

distance in its again, some of its very somewhere to them The letter downloading this programme on Itunes and listening to it at their convenience. Do so it's good to have radio where people can just listen and to the data. Of the crimes in the stories itself. It's I think it makes for fascinating listening so you very much very for coming on the program and talking about masters of true crime. You have you, self a great evening and I'm sure, with your prolific pace of writing books and pudding together and doing all kinds of projects that will be talking to you again real soon. I look forward to that then take the heavy or vague Europe much you have a great night bury ok, thank you. Can I buy.

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