He dissolved the bodies of some of his victims in acid and poured them down the sewer. He hung grisly souvenirs on nails in his junkyard. La Costra Nostra Charles Carneglia was a stone-cold killer who fell in with the bloodthirsty John Gotti crew. As the infamous crime family rose to power with their murderous trail of sex, jealousy, greed, and revenge, Carneglia rose with them. Mafia, Madness And Murder This is the horrifying story of a misfit who fit perfectly into the New York mafia. In a harrowing journey inside a ruthless criminal underworld, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Anthony M. DeStefano chronicles one man’s life in a world of depraved acts of violence and the horrors that went with being a member of the Gambino family. MOB KILLER-Anthony M. DeStefano
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker VP came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the more shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalists and other than asking enabling this your host dad's Apache, further program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about them. It is all the bodies of some of his victims and acid and poured them down the
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the New York Mafia in a harrowing journey inside a ruthless criminal underwear underworld, Pulitzer Prize Winning reporter Anthony MD, The final chronicles one man's life in a world of depraved acts of violence and the horrors that went with being a member of the gun, being a family of the book feature this evening is mob killer with my special guest journalist, an author Anthony M. These two final. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview and welcome back there. Program Anthony Di Stefano. Thank you very much for having me again. Thank you very much. It's going to The very interesting program again, the inside scoop on the most infamous mafioso. Characters and very, very interesting book. I gotta congratulate you again for doing it once again, very much. Ok, first off just for people that might not know you. Maybe you can tell us how you really came too
to do this story and why you decided to write about this particular case. What brought you to this well. I've been covering the federal courts for one of the newspaper in New York Charlie Cornelius trial was one that came up into my area and covered the trial, and let me tell you it was an eye opener in many ways and of course my publisher was interested in the character after having seen book on Joe Messina that I had written and asked me to do it our little unclear uncertain in the beginning, because lifespan thirty years in the crime family. Here there and everywhere, but finally, story emerged, particularly through the trial, transcript that I spent Christmas vacation reading
and came to gather slowly but surely overtime now tell us first, they didn t. Obviously Charles can exert. Is there the main character in a story, but there is so much of a support being cast here. That really are very, very important to the story. So nobody really is the real focus because it such a tangled web and an interconnected, ah between all these characters. Self, maybe maybe first tell us about Charles and John Colonel Carnegie it up and tell us what kind of characters Both these people are because it's very important to the story, and you can maybe even include another important figure in this and that's Charles and John's mother Genie. Well, John Cordelia, some aficionados of history recall, was one of the chief confederates of the late John Guy
and Charles. A John was not that much older than his brother Charles, but he was certainly the better place kind of guy, the more charismatic character and the person who you know he had the trappings of a regular life. So to speak. He married had some number of kids and I had a house and Howard Beach for a lot of the guys working families to go gravitate towards. I am truly was kind of them. He said he was the guy who had drinking problems, drug problems, relationship problems. He would you know he was volatile. He was moody, he you know. If he was in a bad mood, you know watch out kind of character. You know everybody sort of, I guess no near the well brother. My uncle
They were preparing to that and, of course, with John Cornelia being tight, we're the gaudy crew and impose on park. Charlie was kind of a tag alone guy. You know he would help his brother. You would associate with a lot of the crime family, guys. And gradually in I've got to be reliable because you would do certain pieces of work and he was a guy. They could make a fall back upon if they needed somebody to be killed. The evidence. They showed and the family was, you know, he's been his regular family was not much of a you know. Nothing outstanding. I mean the mother. Jenny was a seamstress. The father, I think, was a used car salesman bill. He sorted by, I think, sometime, maybe in 1970s or early 80s,
and Jenny became the the person Charlie in through some extent his brother John focused on Becaus. Maybe it was guilt, maybe they felt like they were giving us so much grief of all day problems that you know they had to take care of her and they did Charlie on his brother got sentenced to fifty years on a drug case with Charlie, who was the one who was at home, taking care of mom Anne as she progressed through the years and became more, People he was the one she had she had to rely upon, but I was kind of a redeeming facet of Charles published some people's mind that I really did the care of his mother and another thing which people point as I did like little kids tat. He was very sort of paternal mean
Toddlers particularly like, like I, am again Bulgaria's uncle towards and have had any cases. I never married, although we had a number of girlfriends, but you know in his life in the character he was volatile- moody drinkers, drug user, you now these relationships will not grant were not destined for aid and great. So, whatever relationship we did have you know they sort of. Didn't go very far. Didn't want to marry one of the one of the women, but now she didn't did one have anything to do with it. In the end, we just wasn't work. He was kind of a broken police kind of guy. You know towards the end of his life right now, just for the audience. I thought it was very interesting, and I've heard this before, but it was reinforced because it's very important to the story is that when you talked about Charles
being characterized by being a drunken volatile and unreliable and ends up, but he's not big earner really and not. Much of a mobster in comparison to his brother will say at least are in private leagues. Now explain for us for the audience, how much being a drug user and even the big rule that seems to be overlooked, but how important it is to the story about drugs. It's tell us about the role of drugs is either a drug user, and if you deal drugs, what what's the the mafias viewpoint on this? Well, you know the traditional role was that the mob wasn't supposed to deal drugs certainly back in the old days, but everybody knows you know that that rule was readily ignored and it's readily ignored today and Charles was involved in a marijuana operation. So the
and showed he would use drugs himself, I would drink. And you know, even though the big bosses and with the old legendary bosses like Carlo Gambino or. Tommy Lucchese and so must have seen. I didn't like drugs for people to deal with them. It was a fact of life in a mom. It's a fact of life a lot of the big earners and the mob were into drugs like Twitter, Genovese himself got convicted in in the drug case, sent away ultimately, so that's a mere these guys did use may be surprised at how many of the old guys were using drugs, particularly the banana crime family, nor a number of guys, hooked on cocaine
of John God delete John Katies Guys Anthony Rampino had a problem with heroin which affected him all of his life. Charles, had a problem with drug use. It also had a big approach with alcohol. Normally, this could get you killed because you would be seen as an unreliable guy or somebody who would get into trouble and possibly flip and become a government witness or just talk too much. Or not do very, do very well in any kind of assignment you And Charles had all of these problems, but I think be cause. His brother was John and I think be cause he had through that channel anyway, an in with John Delete. You daddy, Charlie, got a pass. He could have been killed if he was anybody else. I think for the way he abuse drugs on the way he was,
German flake it now much any didn't, kill people ever showed that he did. But you know he did it in a sort of a haphazard kind of way, an volatility in confrontations with people brought heat onto the crime. Family and became a became risky, but he had a good in it was able to survive and not many people can do that. Now, let's talk and we won't get too far ahead. I think we can, It is for a little bit later, as you do in the book by tub. Tell us who cabin make. Man is first he's a homeless, Howard, Beach person, Charles and John and Charles, meet and befriend unease. More importantly, the story obviously Helen S how it came to be the cabin big man was taken in by John and Charles canadian colleagues? Can we give him a man was basically a street urgent
he in our union in Dickens time he would have fallen with vague and crew, probably, but here in Howard, Beach, Kevin's parents, mother and father had drunk issues. He was living with his grandmother, but when he started messing around stealing cars, the grandmother threw him out. So where did you go? He lived in the cabana sort of Pool House John Carneglia had in in backyard usually yard. Now usually with is warm, could live there and there discovered in there- and you know they kind of- took pity on him and took him into their fault as it were. He became part of the family, wasn't adopted in a real sense But it became like an unofficial family member, but so tight. He was with the carneglia. Is that you know he would go on to
nations with him they came to his wedding, see about jobs. For him he became an adjunct to the fair to their blood family important. John and Charles they into the crime family. It wasn't didn't take much forgiven to become like a loyal sort of her servant. Firstly, not John, and then when drawing up in jail, I would strongly Charley was the guy he pal around with an act
really Kevin was kind of a stabilizing influence on Charles, because the mobsters wanted Kevin to keep an eye add on Charlie, because you know once he started drinking or did drugs or whatever he needed somebody to sort of tamper him down and keep a handle on him to watch over him, and that was Kevin's role, but by being so close to Charlie Kevin saw a lot. He heard a lot. Anna engage as it did things. I put him into contact with the criminal ventures. One of them was the assassination of fur lui. The bono angered the John got his senior by night coming to a meeting,
he was called so Kevin kind of he wasn't a shooter or anything, but he was involved in procuring the car and, I think, even driving to the ultimate assassination scene so Kevin by not doing anything too heavily criminal. He implicated himself in some bad things by being close to Charles. So when Kevin got into problems, the feds were able to target him and once Kevin got targeted. You know it was a short time before they were able to make a cooperating witness out of him. Ok will we get into that lets? Let's try to draw the for our audience. The lines beat between this Gambino family and John Gaudy, so that everyone's clear you did, which spoken already about John Gotti, receiving a sense of sentence and then there's, of course, Gotti Junior
all right. I'll junior who effectively takes over takes over the crew or takes over the work of his father by some people are not happy about that, and I'm not sure that's true, but will they ain't got a senior, as you are well aware, was the head of the family and he got there by the sir this coup over the assassination of Forecast, Llano, and I think, with late one thousand nine hundred and eighty five gotti, of course was the ascendant power. John Carneglia was under John Gotti Senior and by association. Charlie was part of that orbit, as it were. When John,
when John Gotti Senior was convicted and sent away, the family went into a state of flux and there were a number of people running yet in a sort of an acting committee. If you will- and one of them was Gotti son, John or CALL John Junior more unhappy happy with that, they so wish. Nepotism and even Charlie was not happy with that. But after awhile Charlie had to be aligned with somebody and he became the evidence showed in the case under the wing of John Gotti Junior. So he was part of John Juniors world, at least for a time, and that's how this all lines up. He had senior the top dog until it goes away, and then his son, Junior, at least for short period anyway, was running. Something
and then ultimately, the captain of Charlie and Charlie, for while anyway was under, was under junior better. That breaks out now why tell us about Vincent and Peter Guardian. Why and what were their roles and why? Why, where they not able to take control of this family well of Peter John Gotti Genius brother had a lot of problems with his own and he really wasn't viewed by many of the. Other people in the crime family's, really the guide with the the ability to lead the family. You know you could show we could take the pay offs or money or whatever, but he didn't impress a lot of people have been there
organizationally smart right but Peter. Ultimately, I think be cause of this that there were so few people left through indictments and murders or whatever ultimately did take over as head of the family, and in fact, law enforcement now carries him. Officially, we've seen this in and uh for trials as the head of the Gambino Crime family, at least the name, but he's in jail for life. So it's really sort of sort of a hollow position. There's really nothing to do. There was a brother Vincent the Lily lesson on brother who had a team. His own drug problems really wasn't thought about very well on the street and he got convicted in the same case, essentially the Charles, ultimately, Charles was on doing so. They had Vincent Daddy sent away yet Peter Gaudy sent away John Gaudy Senior there
and, of course, jailed died in prison. John Gotti Junior, at least for time up until maybe one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine was involved in the crime family. I mean he's more or less admitted that in his own federal trials, but, as you probably well aware, and on a federal case behind us out of the crime business and has been for quite some period now. Let's another fascinating thing, I think of you mentioned in the book to that. A lot of people are very aware of this story, maybe not knowing the sort of victims name, but they know that sorry, where John Gotti's youngest son Frankie, is accidentally killed by a man named John Favara and tell us about that whole this, of course, is very important to what he has. One another in the great legends of mob war in a nutshell,
little Frankie Gotti. I think it was one thousand two hundred and thirteen at the time was on a motorbike and and how it Gee area, and he got hit run over by a car driven by John for Varro- happened to be a neighbour of the gods family. It was a great you and cry, and it was of course it was a great tragedy for the family and it didn't, of course, not only did it not sit well with John Gotti and his own family, but John Favara. It seemed sort of at least from some of the histories aggravated the family by really not showing much contrition, and you know this is of course open to some debate, but all firstly, the bad blood persisted and it really sent a lot of the John got himself into depression and
singing, perhaps some anger. So ultimately, John Favara disappeared, and it seems as though, if John Gotti Senior didn't order. His death people close to him did take care of John Favara. He disappeared lot of speculation as to what happened to that the hapless sort of driver of the vehicle, but there was speculation in his body- was dumped at sea and some concrete there was talked it was chopped up and put in a car and then pressed into some metal yard, or something like that and Charlie's case and witnesses came forward to say that, based on what Charles told them Charles was given the task of dissolving the body. It was actually Angela Ruggiero Lady Angelo Ruggiero, who gave him the task of dissolving John for
howdy trolley at first sort of screwed it up. He didn't use the right to ask the committee to deal with this is that in the case of family did get it right. The witnesses said, and then some of the bones of John Favara to show that he could do the job. He took some of the bones to the diner, where Angelo Ridge area was having soup and drop some of the bones into the soup. Oh no said listen, I was able to take care of it. That's the witnesses told us that's what they told. The government that came out in a trial came out in the context of the case and filings by the government. And it was really. Rather Amazing story when the first surface, because that was always the mystery will happen to John Favara and although we don't know for sure who killed him- and it's likely that John Gotti Senior had a role in this.
Get the ball rolling Angelo Reserve at seeing the late Angelo Riviera is involved, everybody involved dead, more or less, and the disappearance of John Favara It seems that Charlie was tasked with getting rid of the body, and that is the story that came back through various government court documents that we saw filed in the case, and some witnesses now there's a few quite a few more characters and will go through them because they be very important at the trial in and of course, into Charles Carneglia and all the other mafioso members lives. Can you tell us about Peters Acarreo in his relationship with Charles and He did him for almost forty years he had said Charlotte. I went to travel so tell us about the relationship between Peter, a coral and internal. What kind of business leaders Kara was another mom wanna be?
who was sort of born to? I guess a family that some mobsters attached to it? I became enamored very early in life with the mob life in Brooklyn grew up in Brooklyn, and you know he was a guy who was a knock about kind of guy who was aspiring to be a monster, and he, of course he traveled around E New York and Ozone Park and Howard Beach. Certain time here in New York, you gonna run a giant Carnegie, really and truly Cornelia, and it was Charles and and Peat as a carrot became pretty good friends. They piled around allotted marijuana business. Alot Peters Carol said that he brought stolen far is the trolley and his junkyard. So there was a connection that started and it seemed pretty substantial for a for a number of years and of course they got doing crimes together committing crimes together.
Hanging out and it was through that association that Peter got to I know a lot about Charles, so when things started to happen, when things started to go bad for Peter Peter of Course, turned on Charles and became a government witness So I have kept my man of a government, witness you have Peters Carol the Caro. The funny thing about securities went when he had the opportunity to join them up. He was offered to be a made member, so he says he turned it down. It turned it down. Be cause, it just seemed like too much of a hassle. He didn't want to get involved in the politics. He was not that happy with John Gotti senior.
Because you know John Guy seniors the celebrity- and this is the secret aside- and you know what he is doing and being a celebrity, a thing to be different rules for the underlings, oblivion of that sort of peasant for the family and guidelines gaudy. Who is the boss. So he was off that Even like that kind of existence. He rather be his own man. You know associate with the mob and not be a member and not have to deal with the politics strange guy, so I'm testifying number of times right out of central casting look very sort of tourist wiseguy answers.
Yes, no, you know he had a voice that would somebody wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley with a gun in his hand, you know 'cause, you knew that was going to be the last thing, you'd hear him say where his words it was really. Quite. It was quite amazing to watch him. You know was one of these dynamo gangsters now another. Where are you going with women too, because apparently going to travel for beating up one girlfriends and whatnot like now? Another character? Is the albanian John Alight alight made a movement John. He had Johnny a light he was and because it albanian, there's no way was gonna become the mafia, but he was a guy from Queens who hung around sort of way
boulevard area in forest Park and he says, got tight with junior Gotti through some drug dealing and giving a junior gaudy is denied that now that he said any sort of drug dealing activity. But you know a light testified to that and that's what he's told the FBI, you sort of that's the record you sort of with at that point, but any light you know became a very important guy because he was having into drug dealing and by its own admission, carried out murders and he was a line with again being acquired gently so good at what he did and he's one his associates, like the guy, your watts whom you may have heard about.
He's. One of these associates who, while not a member of organized crime, was big enough to have his own sort of crew of people. Certainly, report, of course, up to up the chain of command, but he was that well respected in the I am at least for a period of time, but you know yet allowed eight relationship with junior during your daddy although they may have been tight, for, in fact, I think it was junior was the best man at his wedding. They ultimately sort of spun apart, and it's not clear exactly why, but I think. Daylight began to resent Junior and in other ways for a number of reasons, interesting character, but he knew a lot of the history of the mob, the Gambino Crime family.
We had another guy who won the going, got tough and he was saddled with some through the prosecution, some heavy time for murders. He also became a government witness. So you know the old. The old idea that you know people are going to be stand up guys and not cooperate is of course that's another myth by drug dealing here now another character is Michael scars. Delian Argo am I almost forgot regime daily in order, like he's, got an amicable doesnt score on his face got in an accident. He was a very close. Friend of Junior Gotti became a captain and cry family every time,
and he was another guy who bought lock, stock and barrel them mob life, he wanted to be a gangster he wanted to be. You know a captain and some Aston ones. Well, you said you wanted to be captain, did you mean in the army and he said no in the mop, and that was his dream. You know he love the life. He loved the respect, these wise guys got any emulated that and that's what he aspired to and that's what it became. In fact, it became a made member, so he testified in the same ceremony in which John Gotti Junior became a made member, so they're sort of leg. I was cast together in a sense when they became made members, and that was really a love. It turned out to be a love, hate relationship because ultimately- the Leonardo became a government with us Causing problem not only for for Charles, but
in a bigger way for John Gotti Junior 'cause, he testified that a number of his trials as well. So it's really interesting cast of characters and he ends up not just being a person is trying to save his own skin. Well, I mean that's the main priority, but he was also well not paid well, but he was pay, it as well as you probably could, as as a yeah I mean, he did very well, of course, is main problem. What's hour. Dem was that when he got arrested on a case of the crime family took away his his sir, you didn't come flop and his rackets and there he felt that was unpardonable and that really solar soured the hierarchy being a crime. Family did involve junior gotta, because I think at that point he was in jail himself. On a previous case.
But really soured on Peter Guardian that whole crew to about money, that's what it comes down to share their existence is all about now, one more as one interesting story before we get into what circumstances lead to all of these people becoming and cooperating with the state and with the with the federal government when these indictments, because it doesn't happen right away, but as one of the most important characters in this story is sort of our government official Albert Gallop, whirl of a court official, tell us who Albert Gelban Gauche it's very interesting story and later be raised. That Abigail was a cordial officer. He was he had the bad luck as it turned out to be to being a diner one night in the banking seventys. When Charlie happened to be in
Charlie had to be packing, some guns and biaxident Galba was in there and having a hamburger sore that, and he said, oh, like I've got a gun peace officer, you know quote officers of peace officers and they can have the power to make a rest said. I gotta find out if this is legit, so he confronted Charles downstairs in the diner and ask them if you know he had if he was a cop or why did you have those guns and then, of course, ultimately they got into a fight right and they got into a fight there. Rolling around on the floor downstairs and was enough commotion that the staff of the restaurant called the cops. The cops came arrested, Charles found a guns
and they had a gun case against Charles that didn't do well for trials, and he people witnesses said threatened job. Now that this is not thing, you know you don't know who you're messing with and to make gal was under the perception through anonymous threats and whatever that he was going to be in for a rough time. Of course, he was going to testify against Charles and testify about guns or ultimately, to make a loan sort of tortured story. Short Alba Gail was shot dead. One night after he got off his shift in the courts. It was a quote over surround on the late night shift and he got gunned down not far from his home in queens.
Suspicion immediately want to John Corniglia and Charles Becaus, Charles you know, have the pending case. An John was his brother. That's where the suspicion Leigh Anne for the longest period of time. You know people suspected that Charlie had was behind it. That's the interesting think about this case, though, is that when it trolley car nearly went to trial for the guild murder, this was in two thousand and nine. That was the one aspect of the case that seemed the weakest to the jury. Becaus, there's one witness attack, fight about a shooter, wouldn't look anything like troubles and trials himself at various times of people
and told people I stab them and that he died because he was going against us, which is kind of ambiguous. You know the standard of proof is no wasn't really very strong in this kind of thing. That Charlie was not found culpable of Albert delves homicide. Some thirty years later he went to trial on that. That's an interesting aspect of the case, but it's the homicide that really gave trolley story legs in the media because, thirty years later, the death of Albert Bell, which is still remember to this day in New York, was a charge against Charlie and everybody was hoping at least on law enforcement was hoping that that would stick the charge didn't stick now. What mobster was was with Charles and
try to persuade Charles to get you know, get lost before the cops came. Who was that? Oh there was, I think, was the Carol he doesn't. Care was Peter's account. Miss Peters Akara was with him that night in the diner by chance, by the way, Peter Zachara was there for some other reason and Charlie happen to come in. He was just been to a wedding and he sat down or walked up to the table and said how you doing so by chance and the care or try to get him out of there after the fractious without work help, but did did matter because the costs and try to make in case by the way that gun case went away. It was dismissed for a number of reasons and they did not make a gun case against Charlie and that's the sort of irony of this Nalbo killed tried to do his job, as he saw it as a peace officer made a case, but ultimately kiss gets thrown out
reasons that may be related to it he's dead what I found a structurally, Actually interesting, was the imagery you created by when Charles is on was on. That was in court for their guilt murder that comrades of gallop court officials addressed in not in every new uniforms what in suit your end, adjusted to show of support, which I thought that was you know quite well, captured in your book that that sort of force that these Vienna was a coffin show of force by the court offices in the quarter association at a very interesting element of this is that whoever killed Abigail even to this day, we don't really know
I read the death really unsettled them on the two anecdotes in the book. I recount one is how, at a dinner tat, not one of the court officer, the presidents of the association was met. The driver, podcast Olano. The guy Tommy, bloody and bloody sort out Dennis Quirk. The cord officer president and he said, listen and my boss had nothing to do with this. He wants you to know. You know it wasn't a sanction thing, which is pretty brazen things to say, where he did say it, and then at the funeral about would go right after the funeral, since you enormous damage your stage such over two men came to the house and they were sort of looked at a place. They were
not jewish, apparently, and they had this very sort of italian look to them and they asked to speak to guilds Father and they spoke to Gail's father to say basically the same thing. You know a mistake had been done. This was not supposed to happen and we just want you to know, and then they walked away, and that was these two episodes that shows clearly. This was not something the mob wanted. Becaus, when Abigail died. A lot of he came on the more certainly be no family and Vienna.
The court offices to this day will always remember what happened, and it is an unsolved mystery, but to them I think they re really believe. Truly to this day, the troll had something to do it now. I know we're probably saudi jumping ahead a little bit, but what kind of maybe? What kind of six failures did the prosecutors have before they find? We get Charles on the stand with all these cooperating witnesses, tell us about some of the failures that they had and why they had particular failure trying to prosecute Charles for all kinds of crimes. While Charles I mean I don't know if they had
failures. So much as he was like a lower priority, they had problems in some of the homicides they try to pick on and they had problems getting people in the community to talk about what happened, to cooperate and give evidence they just four years. That's that's a fact of life in people and how it beat you're afraid to talk about. My characters or cooperate in any way at sight of light
You know it's the old. We didn't see anything kind of routine so for years they had that problem. But what started to happen of course, is that they got this domino effect of these various co operators. You know there was Zuccaro Peter Zacarro, Kevin Mcmahan Johnny a light, and you know if you in a few other characters, Vincent Rosetti, who also testified. They gave important pieces of the puzzle later in the game that allowed them be cause, There was really no statute of limitation problem that allowed the feds to make the case against Charles, but for the longest period they didn't get any cooperation from people in the community until they finally got some people who are in deep trouble, and so cooperation is their only way out now. The thing is, I thought it was important that never read this.
Foreign- and I probably gonna- Miss pronounces this, but I think it's the LA mine in again is my private up a statute, but tell us what that really is, and it's the what kind of specific evidence could be introduced. At trial, what was that again? I'm jumping ahead a little lemon, emotion, yeah that I know yeah. It says you know latin term, which has something to do for limited purpose. What it is- and this is often happens in mob cases- the federal government will say we're going to introduce evidence of uncharged crimes which may We have an indicted, the guy for, but which were going to try to bring up a trial for a variety of reasons. We're going to try to show membership in the car family. We're going to try to show past opportunity and motive or for carrying out similar crimes,
we're gonna try to show association. I try to say like, for instance, Joe George Jones, you know was involved in a homicide. Which we didn't charge in this case, but the method in which he carried out a similar to what we've charged charged here. It's that kind of thing, and that allows him to bring in a lot of uncharged criminal allegations which they didn't bring in the main case, but they're going to try to prove in this case the boy foster Vermin case, it's kind of a second via the apple. Some people, think of unfair and defend is always think of unfair.
We try to get the government to limit what they can bring in. Sometimes they win. Sometimes they don't most often they don't. It's interesting and important to this case, though, because because the lot of the witnesses could not cross reference, but could support sort of in this limited way, Some of the other information, so it becomes circumstantial, become becomes overwhelmingly. Circumstantial becomes almost inference. This happen that happen. He did. This, and the other thing I want to stab Lish before we get into the trial itself. Is that the one thing that this judge Jack Weinstein limited when we get into this is the actual word when we talked about Charles dissolving people in acid and the one thing that defense team did win on at some one point was that the judge thought there was overly overly prodigital prejudicial
to be able to mention the actual word acid, but they got around it in other ways. We will talk about that yeah yeah. What happened was your right? Weinstein did say: look this acid stuff is you know we really can't get this in? Have this come in this way? I don't want to have any reference to ask it about killing people, but he would allow a reference limit, a reference to torture where there was an allegation, one of these uncharged crime that Charles used ass, if to torture, people thickly graphic episode of Prescribed in the book a bright and as things having trials, don't go perfectly and were happy was that one other witnesses right may have been to Carol it slipped out. Acid word acid came out, so they had to go through this whole rigamarole of instructing the jury is not
listen to that kind like on ringing the bell in oh, it's out there and you gotta say you got us or repair it. Somehow, one sitting was really no perplexed by a buddy dealt with it. I guess in his own way, but he did try. It did for the most part kept ass it out of this case, but it I was in the court papers and there was some testimony about it, and that was the thing that you know allow to get in and somewhat limited extent strictly about the torture. That was what he would alone. Very damaging, yeah yeah yeah. I don't think it's everywhere. With a jury now of of Vincent Rosetta, Junior Peters occur. Oh Johnny, John, a light and my the Leonardo. All of these people were testifying that
else. Can I do about where they were? China that the state with the federal government is trying to get him for five murder. So please tell us who testified first and what that particular witness testify to in terms of providing evidence of those some of those or more of those five murders. Why won't? As I recall it, was dealing in order to set the table first, he didn't really know, first hand about any homicides. He had heard things indirectly so was used to talk a little bit about what he had heard. But again the governor had a problem with the problem and getting lot of the Leonardo's evidence in be cause of the re fact that it was all a lot of it was hearsay and he didn't have direct knowledge
and it was a kind of problem- were dealing in order- really block the government about asking him asking de Leonardo. You know what Other people had said about Charles and his brother right. There was a problem, you could say it was a tough guy, you know, and then he was a lawyer worker who did murders, but that's about as far as it could go Ultimately, Di Leonardo somewhat damaging but not terribly damaging, in my mind, this one was Peter. It was really nothing more damaging because he had again he knew about Charles reputation. He said he killed good, that's what he testified TAT and, unlike the deal in order, he could only talk. You know about what others have said:
the cow recounted, what the Charles had said to him. So there was no hearsay problem where the Debono murder lunatic alluded to earlier, which Charles explore. Don't you know I was involved in a carriage for that, and that was a key murder, which was also in the case, and then you know there was other stuff chopping up cars, the drug business. All this is a Caro. You know was able to testify to the bottle thing I think was probably the most damaging saying that Zoo Caro through into the mix, as well as the armored car from some armored car heist. Tell us about the tell us about the bono, murder, and especially the d J F K, robbery
for rather motto: Ludibria was members again being a family who had the misfortune of angering John Daddy senior by not showing up for meeting when he wine, when John Gaudy one come, and for that that was a call motion, and that was what he was going to die for. Ultimately, as a testimony in the case showed Gotti son away denies this up down left right centre center. The testimony the witnesses claim that he put out the job Charlie to put together some time- of to take care of this, and it was Charlie. The witnesses testified that put together
hit team involving himself another character whose name escapes me and Bobby Borriello, they were in on this and they found Louis. The bono in the basement parking his car in the basement parking lot of the World Trade Center, which was it at the time so in nineteen. Ninety and one thousand nine hundred and ninety one- God, I'm Givin Kevin man, I think, was a driver and they Charles got out confronted the bono and the evidence show the Charles pull them over apparently fired some shots into the bottom. The went down with very corpulent fat guy. He went down and ultimate
they had a pushes likes into the car, and then they got out of it, and it was the causes that that the border murder, that a trolley God is his wings, so to speak again being acquired, family became a maid member, and I was when John got a senior looked upon them. Would some the sense of accomplishment, senior foundation. Your made him now Adam adopted, and that's how you know: that's how Charlie became in them on and then in overthrew the killing of a lower the bar, and there was the another thing that has been fictional eyes. Out of. I think I've seen it on Sir prattles or will good fellows, but it at least they ve taken this right from the pages which I wanted to say, and I mention it to you as well. It's amazing how much step has been taken
stock and barrel from these stories and not even fish, analyze and thrown into sopranos and good fellows, and I'm sure some other stories as well, but yet, which were genuine and restructure well was one they do is one where the guy was shot in bar and aid. They pick that in both good fellows and Sopranos, but we also the armored truck robbery where, where guard dies too, has been one of those movies as well. So it's just the even near that rattle, even the junior gaudy, the junior soprano had the ankle bracelet. So what's it there's a lot of parallels there anyway, where they take the same stories and just throw them in so
yeah. I'm not sure how much they knew at that time when they were writing the script, but it was pretty close to reality in some ways: absolutely yeah yeah. Now now, Charles Canicula, there was people. The government wanted these people to testify. Like you said, it'll information, it really wasn't for charges specifically, but they would to have the like this information about the acid if they couldn't quite get in what they wanted to show, how ruthless, how much of a psychopath a killer that is Charles, was and then we come to these murders to make sure that they could put him away. So tell us some of the testimony about the body shop we talked about. The soup won't be the only where these learning how to dissolve these people and acid, but tell us about to some of the characteristics that set him apart from all these guys who are capable of killing, but that really set him apart, and
abolition as one of the most ruthless killers, even among mafiosi itself, man weren't what it was. He seem to have much of a control on her, sir, Anger management was not one of his strong points and that's what you know he would be set off about a lot of things and instead of talking to people and I don T know assert himself that way he lashed out, and he would do no- and we see this in the testimony in case he would stare people or you get involved in size and shoot them on my try car the ice. You know- and I set up in the months before the week before, here. He would do casings of places this work
anger is a Carol. He would be drunk and go out, go out on these early reconnaissance missions and it be drunk and he didn't know what to do. And then the cow said: look I'm not going to anything to do with this guy. You know I don't know. What's going to show up when I go out with them, where there's going to be a drunk guy or guy, that's going to have as an act together that burns Akaroa so Charlie, the problem, the major problem was that he really didn't have the kind of self control that was going to make him go far politically in the mods that kind of stabbing shootings. They end the incident in his junk yard, where he got two guys. Two young kids dynamic testified about yeah. I brought them in to find out who shot a gun and his brothers house and dropped acid through a turkey baster on their feet,
you know, I mean well, that's really heavy sadistic stuff and he was all set to put the baster Mcmahan said this then put the base there up up their rectums. Before they finally spell the bean some in the other. Those uneasy did it took about longed to give up their who it was. They said they would. They won through some pain. Mc man said, told us the trial, but in the end I think tat the image of the turkey. By her you know, going up, the backside was just too much and then they gave up the whoever had the gun was a small deal. It wasn't a big deal in terms of the firing of the gun, but you know in the world of the mob. That was a sign of disrespect to John Cornelia, at whose house this happened. Now, if I say love now the characters that are in the end up being cooperating with
Is this a Karel de John Eyelid. And was Eddie Junior and Michael Dealey Otto now what was their justification? I know they're really isn't any justification. I could say they have a cold, but nobody cares about the code, but just for were interests take what was some of the justification for some of these. As we did talk about some of the sum of the peoples, they will Jesus this guy supposed to be secret, disposable, secretive,
organization, but the guys a celebrity. Some people were cut off financially, so they really had no means of income, so they justified it. That way tell us really their their main justification for not going along with the tradition and cooperating being cooperating witnesses, an in lots of cases specially. I thought it interesting with Kevin Mcmahan, the guy that basically brought him in and took him under his wing as sort of adopted him, and he ends up testifying against them, trying to put him in prison for life. So there are a number of things here, but two or three come to mind. One is Charlie: it was not a diplomat, didn't take care of his friends, and that was part of the reason that Mcmahan showered on him he's turned Charlie turned on like man, an Mcmahan says you know, I don't know what what's going to go on with this guy I gotta get away from looks like you may try to kill me.
In in the end, we really had no allegiance to him anymore. The other thing to keep in mind is that these guys basically guilt position of self interest. They also that there was going to be a period of time when they're going to look like that, spend one thousand and twenty, perhaps the rest of their lives. Behind bars, if they could get some daylight an you get a break on sentence from the government for cooperating and somebody who didn't mean anything more to them. They were going to do it. The thing with the mob is that these guys are all out money and money is really not much of a allegiance builder. Can I really isn't if that's what you're worried about you, not
enamoured with us all countries, sicilian code of honor, respect and family tradition. Here you got money binding into the next criminal, nothing the very deep alliance machine out Jamesina when he testified recently and the best Anna trial. Said it was asked: why are you doing this and it says? Well, I wanted to get something for my family so that they weren't impoverished. And I want to see some perhaps some light at the end of the tunnel, meaning I'm facing life in jail. Maybe by cooperating I'm going to be able to get out before I die, you know and he was he's an old man make 60s not greatest the health, so he wanted to do something to help himself. That's what it's about! That's really what it comes down to now, given that why didn't Charles Grenadier cooperate with the government
they bought into the thing he didn't. He wasn't all school guy, all the guy not going anywhere. Live all he had was this concept of allegiance and that's what he bought into early in life and that's what mistake with he was given the opportunity when they arrested him. They they treated him with kid gloves in a sense because they wanted him to try and cooperate. There wasn't going to do it, they asked and he just wasn't going to do it. He bought into the life and that's the way he was going to die. Do you think he got respect from? I mean not that it matters, but do you think he got respect from some of the old school guys that were sitting in
as a result, probably probably and from some people on the street? I think so in some ways you know he's like the old dinosaur there was, you know, and the story was that he, you know he cry, and you know when reminiscing about the old days, but I think he realized, of course, that the old days of people who deserve loyalty will long gone. But then there really wasn't much you could give up at that stage, we're going to cooperate, who's going to cooperate and some of the other guys in the family, man maybe, but I don't think he wanted to do that he didn't in the end he didn't. And so were how many of these cooperating witnesses ended up not doing any time at all and are free on the street? Now why
no government man got out the upper world? Yeah yea ultimately got his sentence. Time served so he's out, maybe in the witness Protection program. Peat is a care o God sends recently, but he got a little extra time and is also in the Witness security programme. Dileonardo I understand is, is out. I don't think it's in the program. I think you testify that he's not in the program guide like Vincent Rosetti. He got time served and he had some relatively minor crime. I think with securities fraud that he was charged with any cooperated fairly early,
this case? I got the probation or let it was probation or he's out he's living go someplace else. So one of these guys gonna break a light amide, I'm I'm not sure about. I don't want to steer the wrong way, but I dont think he's out. If anything, I think he may have gone some time. The additional time. So it is not in fact he may testify against some other upcoming case and more, whereas junior gaudy right now a free man. He denies to this day. Having a role in any homicides. This cooperate is trying to pin
Him he also denies any drug dealing activity eyes, a free man. He once reformist trials. He government drop the last ones you as you know, and he's trying to get his life together, supposedly making a movie about life with Father in a sense, but I'm not sure when that is going to you know, get shot but he's trying to get his life together, and he said he gave up the mob life along time ago. Certainly, you know enough that he had put together a defense that that was in his life was. The mob was done and he was out of it and I was gonna convincing enough for some of the jurors. Could you get a mistrial? Everything was
somebody like a light when the jurors only was convincing and Charles trial was not convincing in June, got his trial I just seem to have too much baggage two to have too much to gain by a canary everything can be justified to junior gaudy. So in a sense, a light was a failure as witnesses and junior garnish case. What to do work, which is we're, gonna wrap up,
pretty soon here. I would give it a couple minutes, but I wanted to know how you worked investigated this stuff for years and years, the mob and you've written king of the godfathers and you've written extensively about mafioso life. What did you learn from writing mob killer and doing and looking at this car nebula case? What, if anything, surprised you or you learn? from this, even though you have vast experience studying these people. Well, I realize you know reinforced. You know what I had long suspected that This really is kind of a year and anti existed you know the bosses may make a lot of money or for a lot of these guys, guys, like Charles there's, not much you get out of it in the end. You know
they call and have a term from called broke Stre and instead of gangsters broekstra meaning you're broke. You don't have money. The bosses do well the underlying soldiers and associates. They often don't do well. And what do you have? And you may have a prison sentence? It may be living hand to mouth after prison sentence in there's no retirement plan in the mob and in a sense the mafia eats its young. You know if you're in the young guy, ultimately you're going to have a problem down the road and it's going to probably eat you alive, and that seems to me it's kind of like a real empty existence that they have. Yes, you may have the money you may have trappings of path. Or you may have respect on the street and for some people, that's important, but the way you gotta do it and go about getting. It is going to really sort of
Hurt you in the end. That's why that's what I come away with the government as a pretty potent weapons now against organized crime and they're, not afraid to use them yeah it. It seemed. What part of your story was too is that these prosecutors were trying as hard as they could even trying to process the one or have the trial down in Florida, and then Weinstein's said not all we can have it here in New York, but but basically They they were adamant on getting these people, so it seems like yeah, it's a very dead end in existence, because the government got all the time in the world and the resource is and that Trump card. Where hey do you want to spend the rest of your life in jail or cooperate? So it seems that uh they can break the backs of at least certain family members, and maybe maybe they won't ever wipe out the mafia, probably never, but they sure make it tough for these people too.
To continue in the old ways, that's for sure there, the mob our fathers, no that's for sure, absolutely so distant causing. What are you working on now which your next projector what I'm I'm toying with the turn trying to follow through on the sea. No miracle says you know, machine or testified the first. Major mob was ever testify. Come again, my windows, I'm trying to think about closing that loop with something and I'm also looking historically back into. We know all Chinatown witches rich with history in its own crime, history, which is quite fascinating, and if I find out that we will see what happens yeah while you were written a great book here, mob killer, I mom open the audience
found. This says interesting as I did, and I want to thank you very much for coming on a little program and talking about this great book. So thank you very much Tony for this with thank you for the opportunity again and it was a real pleasure. I find you a very conversant I wish to prep very well. Well, you know what I think the difference is. I just read the books, I mean, I think, that's my you know somehow I think that's all you need sometimes believe Maine yeah and then it shows and shows in the kind of questions that were coming out. Well, thanks very much I just want to tell our audience: you can listen to Anthony M these to follow a mob killer. The bloody rampage Charles Carnegie, Le Mafia, hit man. It's on the shelves in its problems. The book as well, in Amazon and available everywhere, where great books are sold. So you have a great evening Tony. Thank you very much for appearing on the program. Thank you. Thank you. I listened to them the programme to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.