Karen Wolfe Churgin walked her dogs on April 18, 1990, on her remote wooded property on Chebacco Road. The veterinarian spotted a white sphere obstructing a drainage ditch. When she reached to dislodge it, she reeled back in horror. She immediately called the police. “I saw something in the woods that looked like a punched-in volleyball,” Karen told the Beverly Times on April 25, 1990. “I looked closer and it was a human skull. It had suture-like zigzagged lines. Those are unique to human skulls.” Officer Hatfeld was the first to respond, and the initial conclusion determined the discovery was, indeed, a human skull. Hamilton Police Chief Walter Cullen arrived at the scene next and photographed the find. The Massachusetts State Police Crime Prevention and Control Unit, CPAC, dispatched Cpl. Dennis Marks to take charge of the crime scene. Local police sent the skull and a nearby black boot to Hunt Memorial Hospital to examine, but nothing else surfaced in the initial cursory search of the surrounding area. Notices went out to departments to assist the resident force, and names poured in to compare the cranium to known missing persons. Joan Webster’s name appeared on the list, but the resting spot was more than thirty miles from the long-speculated crime scene at Pier 7 in Boston. “Of course, it’s being checked out, but the location doesn’t seem to correlate. Circumstances pointed to her being taken out in a boat and dumped at sea. MOMMY'S A MOLE-Unraveling The Joan Webster Murder and Other Secrets in a CIA Family-Eve Carson
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. Karen Wolfe Schergen, walked her dogs in April 18th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety on every wooded property on Chip CO wrote the veterinary
and spotted a white fear hi I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with the Quicken Loans thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty struck, Sing a drainage ditch when she reached to dislodge it. She reeled back in horror she merely call the police. I saw something in the woods that look like a punched in Volleyball Karen told the Beverly times on April 25Th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety the closer and it was a human skull. It had suture like zig zag lines. Those are unique to human skulls.
Officer. Hatfield was the first to respond in initial conclusion. Determined discovery was indeed a human skull. Hamilton, police chief Walter Colin arrived at the scene next and to find the Massachusetts state, Police Crime Prevention and Control Unit CPAC. This matched. Dennis marks to take charge of corporal Dennis to take charge of the crime scene. Local police sent the skull. In a nearby black boot to hunt Memorial Hospital to examine, but nothing else, service in the initial person. Initial cursory search of the surrounding area notices to department to assist the resident force and Nae support in to compare the cranium to known missing persons Joan Webster's name appeared on the list, but the resting spot was more than thirty miles. From the long speculated crime, Zeenat, pier, seven in Boston. Of course, it's check bill, but the location doesn't seem to correlate. Circumstances pointed to her being taken out in a boat and dumped at sea
hope. We're featuring this evening is mummies a mole unraveling, the Joan Webster, murder and other secrets in a CIA family. With my special. Journalist and author Eve, Carson. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview, Eve, Carson. I appreciate being here very much Thank you very much. This isn't right! Thank you! This is a very interesting, unique story and quite complicated story, as we spoke about just before the program started. So let's get into a little bit of who the major players are in this, and, let's start with could give us a what your crown is, and when you met your husband and before you met the family of the Webster family itself. Tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your background and then tell it proceed from there a little bit. Ok, I grew up in
Danielle Illinois, it's a small town in in the Midwest. Most of my upbringing is, in that last went to college at Purdue University graduate of nineteen, seventy four in economics and industrial management, not exactly the background one might think of for delving into an old murder case, but certainly this one has a very significant importance for me at my husband after I graduated from college he'd gone to college in Lake Forest Illinois and met through a mutual friend in Indianapolis, We dated for a couple of years and then got married in nineteen. Eighty Joan was his baby sister and what's his name, Steve Steve, yes, go in, go ahead. Sorry yeah, no
I had known, I began meeting the family in one thousand, nine hundred and seventy seven, so I've known Joan for several years. The book is really about her, although I put in some personal experiences with the family, it's a very unique family. Both of Jones Parents or Steve's parents had been a part of the CIA in their early years, so they have a very interest.
Background, one in intelligence, which was part of the reason. I really started to dig into this case when the pieces just really didn't add up they're intelligent, educated people that make this year a much more complex story than what it really should have been. John one was the youngest of three children and she had worked in New York City for a number of years. Before deciding to go back to school. She went and became part of the graduate program for the school of design at Harvard University in Cambridge Massachusetts, very bright young woman love. What just give gold find would do anything for anyone. She was a wonderful part of my life and, as I've gone through this case, she's become even that much more important to me. I I really appreciate and value who she was as a person, and this is an important case to look at at the time that she disappeared. She was in her.
Second year at Harvard and she had flown back early from a Thanksgiving Break in Glen Ridge NJ, which is where her parents lived, and she went back Saturday night versus Sunday, which was a little bit unusual on, didn't really make much sense for quite some time, but she disappeared from Logan Airport the night she flew back to Boston November 28th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty one. A lot of people have the perception that this case was resolved, but it is an open murder case in Essex County Massachusetts. It was at at the time it was highly publicized, this random, the media, not only in the New England area, but actually there was some national coverage on it aswell. But this was long before the internet and cable tv.
So if you got a lot of attention for the type of case that it was and certainly got more publicity than most there was a note Joan was in school, but it I was a student at first notified of form, the family that she had missed some classes, so tell us about the that day. Be in question November 28th and tell us what you know where it. It seemed unusual to anybody any conversations with people that seem cryptic or pointed any kind of distress or anything unusual. Tell us about that day and the people around her, and circumstances of that day itself. Absolutely no signs of distress whatsoever. The family had gone to a couple of friends homes before they took Jones Newark Airport. That evening.
The whip, hands and the joys, both families that I know and she would have had contemporaries their friends of hers- would have been there. Police reports indicated that everyone saw Jonas everything being perfectly normal. She was happy she was upbeat matter fact. She was very enthusiastic about a project that she had
completed before the break and had gotten very high marks on no one noticed anything out of the ordinary. Her sister also lived in the Boston area, so it was a little confusing why she had gone back early when ordinarily, she would have written back with her sister, the next day to the Boston area. The way the story came out was that she went back early to work on a project that she was going to present and that wasn't the case at all. She had just completed it matter fact. The year before she had missed her thanksgiving break because the workload was so heavy. So to me, going back through this and trying to pee this all together, that was a very unusual circumstance for her to have gone back now. That story, that story was derived or without
a cooperating witness is, as you say, from the father in a correct, correct, that's correct. He came out and said: she'd gone back early. He indicated that she'd gone back early to work on a project with classmates and nothing in police reports or the files that I've been able to recover corroborate that whatsoever. No statements from fellow students at center, most of the students, were very confused and concerned, but didn't know that she was missing until she missed classes on that. Following Monday, it wasn't until several years later that George Webster, her father, indicated that she had made a call Saturday morning to a classmate to confirm that they had supplies for project that didn't match up with the police reports at all. They had checked the home phone numbers, but they did not check George Webster's private number. That number was missing from the police records and I suspect that he didn't report it and no one of us together with no,
that that number existed? Unless you know they wouldn't know, what's missing from police reports unless less they knew that that number existed. That was a confidential line that he used it Saturnus office. No, when Joan went missing and the news to the family into your house. Steve What was his reaction and what was your reaction was very interesting. The facts of this tell us. I had a miscarriage the same night that shown disappeared. We didn't know it for three days, but at the time that we got the call from Steve's mother Eleanor I was at home still trying to recover very weak. I was hemorrhaging. He got the phone call and came running into the bathroom where I was at that time and actually got
angry with me, because I started to cry. I got very emotional concerns scared, very normal reaction, Sydney. When you hear someone is missing sure. He got very angry with me and I that is very bothersome, but they are very still. I only saw Steve cry about the situation one time only one time I never saw any other members of the family cry about John being missing Steve cried when he was under sedation. Wisdom, teeth pulled about a month and a half later. What was your reaction to him? sizing you for crying when he thought that was inappropriate. Despite you say that the family, conducted themselves? Very stoically did you.
I think there was something to his reaction or not. Well, you know your process things based on what your experiences I know that we had just gone through a miscarriage Steve is very immature. I pray I it didn't react to it in a hostile way. I tried to be very sensitive toward him, but considered that you know he just was not capable of handling all the emotions he never really did go through a grieving process. The family. You look at their reactions and I understood that they had a background. In the c I a they never broke down even during private family times, which is very concerning to me, I spoke to Steve's mother about it going the family needs to create you need to process. I didn't understand that that is. You know the way that they behaved on a regular basis. They don't deal with issues, they block them out.
And it is concerning they block them out yet today now how to police proceed with this disappearance, how do they proceed with this? What, where the goal in terms of questioning and how do they proceed? Tell us about that. The case was very sensational. As I said, it was highly publicized.
They settled on an explanation fairly early on. I did not realize they had come to this determination as early as they did, but they focused on a man named Leonard Parity Cell and they focused on him based on an an anonymous call. They received in January of nineteen eighty two only a few weeks into Jones disappearance. The story that came out was that they believe that Leonard Parity cell had picked her up at the airport. Take a note to his both, which was down up here seven and said that he murdered her on his boat and then dumped her in Boston Harbor for a long time. That was, there really was no other explanation, so as not to believe that, but that story didn't come out until a full year later. That story came out in January of nineteen. Eighty three digging into the records I could see how the process went along for that year, trying to implicate this man for her murder. It really was an extraordinary explanation, but no one had anything to dispute it. It was coming from the authorities it was being agreed with by the parents, so no one was going to dispute it at that time that that story is still being recycled, that she was murdered on the SOS boat. The only difference is
Is the fact that she was found in nineteen? Ninety her her remains were found buried more than thirty miles from the crime scene, so they kind of rework the ending to suggest that Paradiso had removed her from the boat for bludgeoned body, taken her to a very remote area, heavily wooded area and buried. Her remains no, who is who is Leonard could so in terms of his background and again what who the theory that police had that he came in contact with her The airport give us more of the supposed background between these two people how they came to.
Bump into each other faithfully. Okay, Leonard parity. So was someone who he was a poor only at the time, and he had a record. He had been a suspect in the nineteen seventy nine murder, a woman named Marie. I nec he was not the only suspect in that case, but he was a suspect because he had attended the same wedding of as this woman and he became a logical person to question that case went cold. The other suspect in that case was a man named David Doyle, who was the woman's boyfriend and they had a non abusive relationship when the anonymous call was placed in January of nineteen. Eighty, two, a woman implicated Leonard parody, sell for both crimes. Both the I Ennis
murder and for Jones disappearance. Her story, which she later testified to in court, was never corroborated, never verified. It was a ten year old allegation, an suspiciously. It was very similar to the story that they were trying to suggest. As far as what happened to chill, she claimed that Paradiso had threatened to dumper in the ocean, where no one would ever find her and, of course, that's what the police were promoting as far as what they suggested happened to Joan that she was dumped in the ocean and was not going to be found, and it was very convenient because nobody had surfaced. No one had any idea what had happened to Joan, went and the motive. Sorry is part of
suppose suppose it motive for all of this, though his motive. What is that simply been a random act? They claimed he was driving a gypsy cab in at the airport, although there is no evidence to support that whatsoever, he was a parolees. He could not get a hack license in. There are no witnesses that testified to the fact that he drove a cab at anytime. Ever it just was. It was a story that basically was compounded every step of the way trying to fit this crime. To this. Man, basically trying to prove that he murdered shown. Webster nothing supports it now, who is this sorry, go ahead. Sorry, who is, who is Robert Bond and and
talk about an anonymous informant, but the rubber bond is a criminal informant, so tell us about Robert Vaughn and what he had to say if I'm not jumping ahead. Okay, Robert Bond is the person that stepped into the picture in January of nineteen. Eighty three he was convicted murderer and he was in the Charles Street jail not far from one parity such cell. They were a few cells apart. He is the man who the police went to and worked on a story and a statement claiming that Leonard Parity Self confessed to him that he had murdered shown on this boat and dumped her in Boston. Harbor, Leonard Robber bond had absolutely no credibility whatsoever, but his statement was sealed and when he came forward and testified in the Chinese the case and also in a pre trial hearing, he was implicating parity so for John Webster as well. So conveniently the police had an informant who could give them a story that tie both of these cases together and all through the media all through the process, the state these two cases were tied together, even though there were no similarities whatsoever re, I n is he was found strangled. She was Garrett said with her own neck scarf and she was dumped out on a rocky bank near the Pine River Jones. At this point in time was still missing person not
Things suggested that you know she had been even murdered at that point we just pointed no. There were signs that there was foul play her purse, it didn't sound and by January of nineteen eighty two her suitcase had been found. She did also carry a tote bag that was never recovered, so Robert Bond was a snitch that came forward worked with the police. They came up with a statement at the time. I had no idea what the statement said. Those are part of the recovered documents now and the statement that he gave, all? However, there is some assurances promises, something to benefit from Robert Bonds,
testimony favorable for the prosecution. Absolutely he was promised that they would reduce his charges to manslaughter for the second murder that he had just been convicted of his case did get retried. He did get found. He was convicted the second time he did not get manslaughter, even though he had been promised manslaughter. He had also been promised and enticed with the the Webster family reward, so he he had been certainly sub. Used to you know, go along and give the state what they wanted. Now. What's your theory in this that police and prosecutors were so adamant in railroading Paradiso. Why were they so why were they put an Since aside just to be able to make this case
work. What is your theory reasoning why they did that Leonard Paradiso was a convenient scapegoat for them and what I did not understand. I understood at the time that they found Jones remains in nineteen, ninety that this theory that they had promoted this boat theory was probably not the correct theory. They had the wrong guy, and I know that for certain wreath things that I knew as a part of the immediate family in one thousand, nine hundred and eighty three, a grand jury had rejected the boat theory. So there was never a true bill handed down. No one was ever charged or tried for this crime.
Joan had been found, thirty miles from the alleged crime scene and she's also not been dumped in Boston Harbor. So I knew that this indeed was not the correct answer for what happened to John, but there was a great deal that I did not know. I can speculate about that time in Boston when things went on there. This was a very corrupt in Boston's history. There was a lot of corruption. The F b I protected criminal informant. I had no idea the circumstances surrounding the I an easy case or the exculpatory evidence that was available in that case, but hidden in either case files. Basically, you've got a case here of public corruption. The authorities manufactured an explanation for Jones LAW. Why would they do that? Well, we either have to look at them. Wanting to you know, stem cells as heroes, finding the answers, but the Websters were extremely involved. In this case they were meeting with the FBI. They were corresponding with the FBI. I know personally that they were in Boston all of the time they had a heavy hand in the direction that this case talk, and they also were the ones that were extremely influential for people to believe this. He said people sympathized with them here these parents have lost their daughter. If the Webster say they believe this, but then people went along with it and the authorities were going along with it as well. The authorities did want to say
today's allied to the Webster's or they like for them and it is going through and we're covering the documents that I have seen the evidence that I have in my personal experiences with the Websters. I'm very concerned that it's the latter because they are completely ignoring evidence that has come to light now in part of that, so it sorry party I just want to make it clear, you're saying that that it's a cover Drop in terms of the Websters of Light, the Websters have not been honest. The Websters withheld evidence, one of the pieces of evidence that they withheld was a composite. It was speculated and spread a lot that Joan had just waved to a couple of friends and then vanished without a trace from Logan Airport. On that Saturday night. That's not the case. There was a
posit a candy cane Ford provided the description she he had seen Joan with the man at the airport and a composite was put together. I knew nothing about that composite until I started digging into this case that composite less depressed it was never broadcast, it was never published and that's not the normal behavior of authorities or the family. If you're looking for a missing person, the composite is is frightening. I recovered it. It is in the book. I disclose it in the book as well as comparison with someone that it looks very much like the Webster family, with help that they also withheld George Webster's private phone number. So the family is the twisted and distorted things as well. For example, John had just completed a project, it that's fine and all of a sudden shown is going back early. That's an explanation. No one was going to dispute coming from the father, but his explanation was that she went back early to work on a project when that is just what she had just completed right. A lot of the
twists. In there it's and- and I mean this- is a family that has c I a background, they're, very good, at rating perceptions. No, you will include a bunch of famous cases, including Casey Anthony, drew Peterson, a bunch of cases, high profile cases that I'm sure you've included for some really good reason to damage greater illustrate. The connection to this. So tell us why It includes those stories and what was the gist? What was the point in
losing those stories in this book. The reason I put those cases and listed them up front, because people really need to stop and think how cases pan out the majority of murder are committed by people that the victim now and in those cases where I've illustrated sometimes there is a family connection. It is, is for fine for us when we do realize, for example, the Casey Anthony case she lied. She made up a story when people understood that she had provided false information withheld information. She became a logical suspect in her case the police were not participating in fabricating in promoting that story. In this case, the police are the ones that are fabricating the story and promoting liner parity. So as the culprit in the crime, when there is no evidence whatsoever that connection to the crime at all, I've been through every single piece of so called evidence. I've been to the witnesses. I've been to the associated cases that were tied to Leonard Parity, so it was a corrupted case. The legitimate investigators who might have gotten to the troops were taken down primrose path. Things were diverted me give a good example in the epilogue of a book was written in two thousand and eight by the former prosecutor, TIM Burke, who was assigned to the investigation in the epilogue of his book. He lists a bankruptcy fraud case and he provides the name of Richard Stearns, as the judge gives the date of November. First nineteen, eighty five, that's completely false information from sworn affidavits. I can look, and I can read that he instigated this case. He timber contacted the FBI, got them installed in a bankruptcy fraud case against Leonard Parity, so letter purity cell had filed for bankruptcy in nineteen eighty one in August of nineteen eighty one among the things that he did not list in his bankruptcy was the boat. The alleged crime scene and the authorities have the information right at the time that they came out with this theory. It's in documents it since one statements, it's in court records that they had knowledge that the boat had been reported missing. Eight, the trial that he misrepresents in his book actually took place in April of nineteen. Eighty five and Judge Bruce Elia in Rhode, island, the federal District Court in Rhode Island. After reviewing all of the evidence which was not contested at all, determines that the boat did not exist in August of nineteen. Eighty one four months before John Webster disappeared to the crime scene did not even exist, and yet they continued there. Media reports, where both TIM Burke and the lead officer on the case into Palumbo, got on tv continue to promote that John had been murdered on this boat dumped in Boston Harbor. It wasn't until nineteen ninety, when her remains were found that it shifted a little bit and they suggested well. Yes, she murdered he murdered her on the boat, but then moved her thirty miles away and buried her. That's not even remotely possible. It's impossible. You can't murder someone on a boat that did not exist in fright. Berks two thousand and eight book indicate that his story still is in this. The book was supported by the family. That John was murdered on this boat and he gives a horribly graphic description of her being raped and murdered.
What I'd like for listeners to know is how she was really failed, because it's equally as for effect, but it did not happen in the way that the family and the authorities describe the way John Webster was found. Was she had a two by four inch hole in the side of her head? It took out the entire right side of her skull. That was an enormous blow out with the bath crowbar a lamb, something that was swung with enormous force that cracked, his skull and literally took out the entire right side. She had been stripped of all clothing. She had been completely stripped. There was nothing in the area that was Jones, with the exception of a rain and a gold neck chain that was still on the scallops and when they found the remains, she had been completely stripped and she was thrown out in a black plastic trash bag, the family, after finding the remains and learning how their daughter had been murdered and disposed of, had her cremated and a cremation. In fact- and I did not understand this until I dug into this case cremation effectively shuts down the investigation- the state can only released a body, a murder victim for cremation. After all, legal avenues have been exhausted and they never had an inquest against the man that they continue to accuse of the murder
they just shut down the case and then continue to accused him. Let me ask this that I want to hear Explain to the audience that that the dynamic present here you're married to to Jones Brother and Steve, and you're, claiming that the family is hiding the secrets there. You know there can and to do that their CIA, both of father, another. So the family is growing up with that. What What is the dia dynamic between you and Steve, based on your doubts about the family, and when exactly did you, of this sort of moment where you said, I got to get involved and tell us why you got involved and when that one, I guess, decisive moment came when you said I want to get involved here and I'm this story doesn't seem to ring true and I'm going. Become involved, and then what was the
dynamic between you and Steve being her brother, an part of this secretive, CIA family Steve and I were married for twenty five years. We divorced the end of two thousand and four uh. It was a mediation. There was, you know, no strain or dispute going back and forth. We just simply divided things. We had two daughters and in two thousand and one I discovered a letter that my daughter had written. It was in a desk drawer
And I found it trying to find car keys, probably the most numbing experience of my life, my daughter alleged in her letter, which has been authenticated and uh the implications verified by multiple people that her father sexually abused her. I cannot prove or disprove that that happened, but what I can establish is that I immediately thought help to try and get to the truth understand what my daughters meeting meaning was and what had happened. I know that the behaviors of my children, I have two daughters, became very different, very different, very hostile, very angry and their anger was directed at
me it was not something I could understand. The Webster family has a very strong image. People like them they're fun to be around they're, interesting people, but it's not the dynamic of who they are behind closed doors and what I found was a family that would not sit down and discuss the issues. I basically was alienated from my daughter and I became a victim of being very good, valued and literally discarded. When I started to dig into this case. It was my fervent hope that I would find something to justify the family's belief in support of timber xbox because they came out publicly supporting it. I had gone through a series of experiences with them. They just didn't add up and there what I found when I dug into it was that their behavior is in Jones case, matched more the experience that I had then the experience that the public view of them looking for their daughter. They just they were not honest. They were not open. They will not discuss anything. I've already presented them with facts. It's a sorties lied to them, I'd be in their corner, one hundred percent. This is a horrible horrible nightmare to live through to relive it going through. These documents was equally as for fine, but even more so seeing the deception that was going on and seeing a man framed, a man was framed. He there was exculpatory evidence for him in the eye and use the case. They persecuted this man and went after him with a vengeance. That's just unimaginable the websphere is a very secretive that certainly comes out of the condition of your c. I a and activities that they may have been involved in. They were not things that they discussed, but I can take personal knowledge and time and place of certain things and knows that they certainly were aware- and they were in a time and a place to have been involved in some things that most people in a modern, decent open society would not approve that whether they felt justified for that as part of the CIA. I don't know, I'm sure that they probably did and I'm sure that family members,
Joan the other sister hand and Steve were all very conditions to keep secrets, and that is what exists today. They are extremely co dependent. My children are in a position now where they believe that their sense of security is in keeping family secrets. I certainly don't agree with that. I you know. I understand that, but I certainly don't agree with that. When people have done things that are wrong, every victim should speak out now. Let me ask this question in terms of Jim Burks book. What is he claim is the motive behind Paradiso kidnapping John Webster and then. What do you think once that once you tell us that motive. I think, as a result
in terms of what did your husband think of this motive, the family was supposedly supporting coming from TIM Burke and through his book
they are supporting the motive that this was a random act. That John was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Leonard Katie so picked her up. They labeled him as a sexual predator. It has gotten to the point where they label him as a serial killer. Now I could find no evidence that he ever killed anybody. He did have scrapes with the law. He was a parole, a for an assault conviction. That's it the that's it. You know he had an eighth grade. Education he's not someone who could have gone out and just completely baffled everybody everyone, the blood members of the family, both of John's siblings and his father. His mother is now deceased, our lockstep with that and we'll discuss anything further and, as I see on going through the records, there were a sorties that had come forward to them and said this isn't right and they didn't pay attention they had decided in their minds. This is what happened to our basically it's their story and they're sticking to it. They don't want people to dig into their classes and
Fortunately I was someone who saw a different side of the Websters, then what the public sees and they're very image, conscious image management, that's what I'm a casualty of. I knew too much about the family. Now. What year did you become involved and start? And you know Undertale this incredible task of finding out the truth and and digging in and doing the research and asking people and digging up a nun Nursing some of this information. What year did you officially start that, and when did this book when, when you, when you finally wrap up the book itself, I began to be really suspicious.
And a an article came out on November, twenty eighth, two thousand and six that was the twenty fifth anniversary of John's disappearance? I was going through enormous struggles with the Webster family, who ended alienated, not only myself, but my entire side of the family. From my children, the article came out with the family support and I knew at that point. This was wrong. They are influencing my children to believe things that aren't real or to go along with the family line. I started to dig into the case in two thousand: seven didn't really get to records and chill of maybe the middle of two thousand and eight. In into two thousand nine, I hired a private investigator and an attorney in Boston to help me all the records have been, you know, procured in a very proper way, interfere verifiable and I got to thousands of pages of records. Fortunately having been part of the family, I think I even understood to look at a couple places that other people had not. I retrieved police records from Glen Ridge, New Jersey, which was the hometown. I found a great deal of information there, including the composite that had been suppressed and learn once I got into that that the family has that composite in the first couple of weeks, ab jobs disappear, and I didn't know about it until two thousand and nine and the image in that composite is extremely frightening. It resembles as the lead officer in who was involved in the case. That's interesting yeah as I started to dig into it
I understood I had to go back in and research the climate in Boston. At that time, both the d A's office that was involved with him Burke Work, Suffolk County DA's office had been exposed in nineteen. Ninety one for corrupt cases that covered the years that they were investigating liner parity, so nineteen, eighty to nineteen, eighty eight, his situation fell right in the middle of it and they had corrupted cases the FBI that was the Whitey Bolger era. They recollected criminal informants in one of the things I learned in taking into this case that there was a confidential source providing false information to the FBI about Jones case that the individual who also resembles the composite. I was able to determine through other sources who, indeed that was- and it wasn't even that difficult to figure out, because I could see what information was being provided. The robber bond statement claimed John was murdered on the boat dumped in Boston Harbor. There was a confidential source reporting on a gun that they miraculously discovered underwear pair diesels, both had been sunk, even though the legitimate legitimate investigators had missed it. For two months, the as the confidential source provided information to find a witness, a woman named Charlene Bowler. Well, who gave incredible testimony and I'll, never forget the day that this article landed on my kitchen counter. This woman claimed that Leonard Parity so was a hit man for the mob. He chopped up body type cinder blocks to them and dump them in the ocean. For years I spent vacations looking in the water wondering if John was down there, that's a horrible thing to do to people and there's nothing that corroborates. That story whatsoever. The interesting thing in FBI files was that TIM Burke claimed that Charlene boy well, they had a photograph of her wearing Jones missing bracelet. To my knowledge, the bracelet was never found, but the only people who could identify that bracelet with the Websters. So why did TIM Burke claim that you know this woman was wearing Jones Bracelet.
The pieces didn't add up, but all the little tiny little tweaks and things you know. To be honest, I think TIM Burke was manipulated. He may have legitimately believed that Paradiso was responsible for murdering Joan early on, so he was willing to pervert another case to nail him. They had absolutely nothing to go after him. For, for John, nothing, all of the evidence was manufactured. So could the prosecutor have convinced the family? Again? It's it's it's a confluence of events here and motivations and and reasonings why people do things, but would the family then possibly been it's by the prosecutor to that, despite Some holes in some of this and lack of evidence it certainly this. Was the culprit and again
With the CIA background, did the family not believe that there was some it. Just happened to be this guy working for the mob or capable of doing such an atrocious crime would have no
connection with them as as c a a personnel, I'm not sure in looking through the records, how I can believe that they were lying to so convincingly Burke was not the least bit convincing. He his prime suspect, a man that he pursued for years, Leonard Parity, so when he published his book for the first edition that came out, tested or said that someone parity so was born in ITALY, Leonard Parity so was born in Boston. That was extremely easy to find out TIM Burke, I had just had his back covered published this, but because the documents did exist to refute, you know what he was coming out and suggesting he suggests that he wrote the book at the encouragement of the Websters. He says that in his up a lot of the book, the family went and visited him in two thousand five, and after that he came out, wrote the book. I can't figure out why that would convince them. You know why he would be so convincing to them. None of the evidence, snatched up whatsoever, you know, is it possible that they withheld information from them about the boat, not existing. Finding from the trial that took place in Rhode Island in nineteen eighty five, it's possible, I was lied to so I mean I certainly can understand someone being lied to. They were very close to it. They seem to have their hands in everything that was going on. They even drove up two summers in netiquette in nineteen. Eighty, seven. At a time when there was a push to trying get Robert Bond, the to time convicted murderer. Who was their informant to testify in take a piece of the trial in Jones case that was before the remains were found. If they were going to do it, they had to have proper font. The Webster family was involved every step of the way. One of the things I found it appropriate in there was the fact that the Webster's received an assurance from another witness that the state use the man by the name of Tony Pisa. Tony Pisa was a man who was once on death row. He came forward with a story that was completely unverifiable. It was like he said, situation, no way to verify that whatsoever and pretty far fetched, and that means a free man. Today he got out of jail
and he made assurances to George Webster that he wasn't really interested in the reward money for coming out and talking. It was the witnesses such as those rubber pond and twenty piece that that convicted of under parity cell in the eye and is the case there were only three people that suggested that that the cell was involved in those crimes. It was Robert Bond, Tony Pizza and the woman who placed the anonymous phone call my now it in in all of this, you publish your book. What does your husband have to say? What is his reaction in terms of
Your investigation, in terms of your book and in terms of your allegations, I have trying to ask the Webster's questions all along the way and they knew I was digging into this. I have been a little bit surprised by the reaction. As I said, my initial hope was to find something that justified the Websters coming out and supporting this theory, the boat. The reactions have been very unusual, to say the least. I have been harassed, I have been threatened and those are the things that can be tied directly back to the Webster's Steve Sister and has threat senses very interesting emails and George Webster Jones Father. As of Christmas, two thousand and twelve Christmas night- and I listed several things where there were discrepancies in the records versus what they were supporting. I asked to sit down in a proper setting to discuss them and he was very juvenile name, calling harassing threatening vulgar language, and his last line in the email to me was died. That to me is a very threatening comments to come from my former father in law. Two. I live through this experience with them, and here his daughter is, was brutally murdered. The case has never been solved
I've? Gotta get information, it's all verifiable and he wishes me to die. The Webster family wants to support that young was murdered in a random way. You know wrong place at the wrong time picked up by this man murdered on the spot and that's impossible. The pope did not exist now, we've without giving away without giving away everything. That's in the book in terms of your conclusions, Point our audience- that's been listening so far in the direction of where you think, where you think
motive, lied in terms of her murder? The motive certainly has to do with secrets in the family, the family secrecy, whether that their business involvement or personal things. I can't say specifically, although I have reason to be concerned about the personal behavior within the family. I certainly am concerned for the safety and well being of my children. If the family family is certainly complicit in covering up this crime, there is no question. They are obstructing justice at this point in time. If they had involvement in the crime, then that puts my children at risk and it certainly put me at risk their secrecy about what was going on in the investigation and being truthful about what the evidence was, who legitimate suspects were and what not it's frightening, and if you've got someone who is involved in the investigation, who is equally as interested in keeping a lid on this case, it certainly explains the dynamics of what what's going on. That's where the pieces that and yeah it's a case of public corruption. As far as that is the story that was contrived the Websters for involved or not involved, that's something that a legitimate investigation needs to research. I spoke with special agent, Michael Choros, in the public corruptions unit of the FBI, and he indicated to me that the first thing, in any case that should be done, is for the family to be looked at. That's true. In any case that never happened. In this case, George Webster took over the investigation. He really ran the show and because of the western influence being.
Very available to the media, constantly making comments? They said to the I initially trial: they were constantly in the public's eye, as you know, a grieving family looking for their daughter and naming parity. So as the culprit, it influenced a lot of live and in very negative ways, so yeah the family, the family, needs the answer some questions. Now you said the family had to act. Is to media and the media utilized statements from Georgian and from the family. How about your book and again these statements and facts that you have on earth and the allegations that you have made specially in in the family. What is the
that same media's response to your book. Has it been lukewarm, as it's been called as a been warm. What's been the reception, it's been very cold and I think part of the reason is the influence of the authorities out east. They don't want this case opened up. I provided the assistant district attorney because I've I've approached going through proper channels is anyone as a witness should going. I hop restored the state then provided documents, it's scaring them right in the face. They have no answers for it, but what has happened as a result of this? A confidential piece of information that I provided the current assistant da who is custodian of Jones files as well as three Massachusetts state troopers? I provided them with confidential information. That information was then later distorted and misrepresented to the public to paint me in a very negative way. I try to come forward with documents at the Massachusetts Parole Board in two thousand and eleven to give a victim impact statement. Regarding Robert Bond, I had his written statement about what happened to John. I had this testimony. I do not with him face to face. I know the that his statement was false and authorities would have known it was false at the time that they took it. I provided documentations to fully support my statement. I was not allowed to make a statement. I am properly certified with the Department of corrections, but people got on the phones and they were talking to each other. They blocked me from coming forward. Speaking out this book really came to fruition because it had to come out it is it has. There has to be public awareness if you've got a case that is controlled by people with an interest to hide it and cover it up, because there's a pretty big history in Boston of just this type of thing, then you've got a system. I totally dysfunctional system that does not work that can leave people victimized all over the place, and if I go back to my children and the
The allegations that my daughter made, if that's the kind of abuse in violence within a family where they've got an unresolved murder, what are the dire consequences of lying and covering up crime who they have hurt along the way I'll protect my children, then I'll, be as bold as I need to. I have documents to back me up, and this is an incredible case now. Did you were they able to point at your particular situation of alleging that your husband abuse your child based? this letter seeing this as this extreme case of sour grapes that you have this location and then a belief, and then it grows into an overall beliefs? They could cover up something of even you know more
grievous nature, like murder of the of the daughter Joan so Did they were they able to include all of this and sort of give it as some sort of test?
that you might not be credible because of it? I've had a lot of people make that judgment, and I think that I have the type of character that I would ever make up any sort of things against my ex or my family. No, these were people that I loved and trusted, and they know me as a person with strong core and a strong character. Is that what's being portrayed? Yes, I didn't make the allegations against my ex husband, my child it. That letter has been authenticated and verified by three counselors three counselors that we're working with the family. It's been reported to the police in a police file. It's become part of the public record in a court case, a contempt hearing I had against my ex husband, even my ex husband had verified that letter as well as my child sister verified it in writing. Those are all things that I have their documented the FBI here in my locale here when I received a threatening email from George Webster, the FBI agents looked at all three components that I was dealing with, because I'm really dealing with three things here and dealing with allegations that my child made and I as a mother standing up for her, which I only hope that every parent that would come across such a nice, yes with pride, stand up for the child. That's number one, the second part of it that I'm dealing with our as the unique background of this family, how they deal with things their dysfunction to be able to sit down and discuss things, they're alienating and devaluing behavior. That's not treatment. I deserved in any way shape or form. People didn't know me, and the third factor is an unresolved murder in the family, where the family is supporting an impossible theory in their documents. Court records police reports, an abundance of records that support that this is a false assertion that is still being provided by the state and the family, so yeah. The FBI agents that look at those three components indicated that my child's letter should have been investigated and asked if that was something to pursue at this time, they're both adults. Now I've been trying to deal with that. That was the first and foremost
Thing I tried to deal with for many years without really making the connection other than the behaviors just didn't add up. You know the behaviors that the image of a family looking for their missing daughter and the image of this family, basically eliminating me, because I was not one who was just gonna close my lips and not trying to help my child understand what was wrong and get the proper help. I was driven from my children in in a pretty brutal way. I don't know. I hope that you know I have. I have no animus, I'm angry, I'm very angry. The family was not honest and they're still not being honest. You can't ignore fax to suggest that they don't exist. Ignoring things does not change the facts and the facts are in the documents and I've got an abundance of them and many have been provided to many different departments. I just recently received a letter from Governor Chris Christie, as well as from House Attorney General's office. I appeal to Governor Christie to look into this case because Jones was a new Jersey resident legally. She was a student in Cambridge Massachusetts, but she was a legal resident of the state of New Jersey at her parents home at the time this crime happened. He took it seriously and forwarded the information to his attorney channel. His attorney general did writing back that they felt more appropriate place for it to be investigated is with the attorney general in Massachusetts. Martha Coakley already denied a request to try and look into this, and she has an unusual relationship with TIM Burke, she was named as someone who had made a verbal agreement giving entitling him to some very valuable beach property that he's trying to fight for breaking out against the city of Marshfield Massachusetts. So you know that you, you got a good old boys club out there, where people will cover for each other, rather than explain. Tell me how whole MR parity so could have murdered my sister in law on a boat that is excess
I want people to go back and focus on the facts and, if there's an explanation for it, it certainly would have come out by now if they had a real justification for implicating this man. It would have come out by now, because there's been plenty of heat to get to the truth in this and what they seem more interested in is trying to keep it quiet. That's why this book had to come out now. Is that the new development? At? U positive development that you were talking about before the interview one one of the new developments was hearing back from Governor Christie and from his attorney general. Another thing that happened since this book has come out the woman who placed the anonymous phone call in January of nineteen. Eighty two implicating Leonard Parity sell for both the brand is the murder and for Jones disappearance. She finds that she place that anonymous call now she did that, but at the same time she also disputed something. That's in court records court records and I do have it documented in my book, TIM Burke claimed that she placed in on this call to the Webster says well implicated parity, so for Jones murder she claims she did not make that call well one of the two of them. This line, either TIM Burke manufactured a story or he's got to discredit his witness, who she was never a credible witness to begin with. This was a ten year old allegation with absolutely nothing to support it. She went in and made up the story. What was interesting is that she was an acquaintance. She grew up with not only learn a parody cell, but she also grew up with one of the police officers, who was very integrally involved in this case in my name, is Clark and comments. Meryl, who was the lead officer is superior and he was very involved in this case. Robert bond, the convicted murder is that they got to make a statement. This lead through an interview by Carmen to Meryl and when he was disgruntled with his outcome, not getting the things that he felt he had been promised. He named he filed a motion with the court and he named specific name. He named him for making promises. He named Andrew Palumbo, making promises he named Carmen to Meryl making promises, and that document is actually in the book. I do have a few documents that I put in the back of the book. There are so many more that it was impossible to. You know put everything in there, but I am posting something's up online on a facebook book page about this case, so that people can truly see that I'm not out I'm out to get to the tree and I'm out to get to the truth for two very important reasons: my children's well being and safety number one and the only thing that you could ever give to a deceased member of your family. The truth, that's the only way you can value and respect their life. Joan was an incredible person, a wonderful person and is in the you know she was about to spill with family secrets. Perhaps to me I was pregnant at that time. Perhaps she wanted to tell me about you know the way this family encouraged or forced secrecy within the family. You know, I'm. I haven't the most admiration for her and she has been a guiding force to really re live the whole experience all over again and it's been a nightmare all over again when I saw a picture of John Scroll compared to you know what was described to me. What had happened to her and I could see for myself this goal- there was no way that she was.
Hit in the head with a whiskey bottle in a cramped, little boat cabin, and by that point I knew that the boat didn't exist. Um I couldn't get out of bed for two days. You know this. This has been an enormous amount of grief to deal with, but I am absolutely I'm a rock solid person and if anyone chooses to question or challenge, I'm happy to go through that process, I'm happy to go through that process with the documents and, unfortunately, the authorities who should be interested in the truth are not the ones doing it, but other measures have been taken. I am waiting a response for complaint that was filed to try and have this case removed from its current jurisdiction because there not legitimately looking at this case, it's interesting to that family
decided to do the cremation and not look for any kind of like some things like rape kit, don't work after years and years, but if there was some obvious sexual assault, you say the boy was found naked. No clothing whatsoever. But it is very curious and telling that the body that the family would create this, their dog, better. Basically, without doing that,.
You would think they would want to have some answers. Whatever answers they could derive from that autopsy, and I mean they did it was of the remains went through a couple of months of forensic testing. I remember it seeming like an eternity before her remains were released and we buried her and there's another very unusual point her sister and did not come back to for her sister's interment, and it was just Stephen myself Jones parents and the choir director from their church. That's it that is
We were the only ones graveside and that always bothered me since this has been going on. You know you asked about some of the family three actions when I recruit re covered FBI files. I found an incident in those files that I've known about as part of the immediate family, but it was something that was never published in the press. It's never been any. Numerous books have talked about this case at least five books that I'm aware of and it, but it was. This was something that was never discussed in any of these books, and that was an extortion incident that took place in October of nineteen. Eighty two I had a second miscarriage shortly after that incident happened. I mean these. These were things that were very hard on you emotionally and physically. It was a very draining it went on for years and years. I asked about that extortion incidents because no one has ever been charged. For that I I was curious about it. I had asked the d A's office about it. My ex husband lied to my brother and told him he didn't know anything about anything like that. Think of anything that even remotely looks like that at all. That conversation was taped, so I have been on record age. You don't forget when your father is wired and you're put in a wired car in your traveling across state lines, with an extortionist and he'd, driven to a bogus address. The man by the name of Harvey Martel was taken to the FBI headquarters where he was questioned, wouldn't answer questions and then was released, never charged it within the FBI files and one of the copies one of the report was initial by William H, Webster, who, at that time with the director at the end
the I. So this had extremely high visibility. Yeah, you know to repeat an incident like that sounds pretty crazy, a pretty sensational unless you can back it up and it wasn't until I got into the F B, I records that I've certainly was able to back it up and have been able to corroborate it in other files as well. Now you know it's interesting. You talk about all the time. There's a lapse in some people might say cheese, this woman, isn't giving up she's relentless we just talked about the media sort of Luke warm or kind of cool. Attention to this will say in terms of interest in but but I would say that you would not be the first person that, even though it's twenty five years and it looks like nobody.
Wants to remember this, that there are people out there very much like this audience that is interested in these kinds of cases, and I applaud you. This concise? Very very I mean no one can you know characterize you as going off, on a tangent or or hysterical or you're very, very logical and book is very. Like Oracle, legal document. So it's not so much opinion. It's here are the facts. As many as you could dig up, to point in the direction away from the official story. So I applaud you with this effort. And I think just hang in there. I think you're going to
I mean there are some promising signs, so yeah, I'm chipping away, and, as I said, the book is really witness testimony and at least that's how I view it and, in addition, I'm pursuing the legal avenues that I have or that I can think of Nine, I feel, like I've earned a couple of extra degrees along the way, Julie Hinds, to figure out how? How do you one ravel case? Like this I mean I,
half a country away, and you know more than a quarter century, trying to figure out what really happened. You know I I haven't really had to dig and I've had with the card. I know wife get nervous, I mean my heart would break for the Webster family if they were lied to, and they truly believe that, but you have to look at their inability, their dysfunction to discuss anything other than no. This is what happened into the value and peace March. Anyone who disagrees with what they say and that it it's a patriarchal family that is kind of how he operated only I didn't grow up that way, I grew up to be an independent thinker, get the facts for myself and what
I learned and what I am covered was not at all what I was led to believe that the time and it's heartbreaking. Yes, I want to congratulate you on this and coming on I'm doing this great interview about mom the more unraveling the Joan Webster, murder and other secrets in a CIA family now leave for those that have listened to the program and they might want to contact you too maybe give you some information or contact you further. You said you had a facebook page of a of a fan page for this book. Tell us how people might be able to contact you if they're so inclined? Okay, I'll, give you two website. One is the Facebook page and that's www dot. Facebook dot com back Slash mole m o Eve, Carson, Easy
e c, a r s, o N, that's the book web page. You can also go to the the actual book website, which is W W. W mommies are mole dot com. There actually is contact information there, both an email, twitter and Post Office box. I would welcome anyone who has even if it's suggestions on who do you turn to as a private citizen when you find corruption with the authorities in seeking justice for case anyone, who's got advice, the things that they've experienced themselves five- I am I welcome at All- and I appreciate the time you've given me to talk about this case. It's a tough case, but you know it's one where you know everybody should be concerned. If you've got a sorties that can do this to people's lives, they continue to devalue John that she certainly does not deserve that and he is the consequences of their misconduct, their corruption, to throw off the case.
Resulted in harm to my children in my children should be facing off with the state of Massachusetts themselves, but they need support behind them to be able to speak a second, yes. Well, thank you for this book and I'm continuing in the fight to find out the action. Truth about your sister in law. Joan WEBS, you said she was a great person and everyone deserves the truth about what happened to them, especially when they die such a horrible horrible death and there's so many people that did love them. So I want to thank you very much and wish you the best of luck with this fight. Thank you very much Eve car sing for coming on and talking about mummies and more. Thank you very much. Dan have a goodnight goodnight.
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-06.