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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky on March 15th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven police in Anchorage AK arrived at uh huh graphic scene of carnage in a modest, downtown apartment they found Nancy Newman's, brutally beaten, corpse sprawled across for bed.

In other rooms where the bodies of her eight year old, daughter, Melissa and her three year old Angie, whose throat was slit from ear to ear Nancy and Melissa had been sexually assaulted after intense investigation, the police, narrow the principle suspect down to twenty three year Old Kirby Anthony a troubled drifter who it turned to his uncle Nancy my husband, John, for help in a place to stay Lil Jon know that the Navy he took in was a murderous socio capable of slaughtering his beloved family. This true story, shocking and tragic, stunned anchorages, rez since, in motivated the major crimes unit of the Anchorage Police Department to do uh, everything right in their investigation feeling the heat as the police built their case, Kirby bolted for the canadian border, but the cops were onto him. Firstly, huh him down. Then the cops in the tenacious prosecutor brought there

began their long, Biddle bitter Battle to convict him up against. An equally Tough defense lawyer as well as the eagle Maniacal defended himself. The talking tail reached its climax in a controversial trial where, for the first time and FBI, proof there was allowed to testify and controversial, Dna science of aloe typing was presented to a jury but justice. Not be served until after the psychopathic Kirby Anthony took the stand in his own defense and showed the world the monster he truly was book we're featuring this evening is murder in the family. With my special Yes, journalist and author and broadcaster Burrell Bear welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to do this interview. The legendary for bear well? It is a great pleasure, as always dad to be on your show, and thanks for being I guess to my show recently we had a great time. Yes, it was a fan

tastic time and you and Howard and market was always a fantastic time and and here we are with another incredible tale: murder in the family, from many years ago, in your repertoire, let's Joe Is that right go ahead, Bill Bro? Oh, I was going to say that was, I don't want to say my only I'll say my first New York Times bestseller, which car it's all by surprise It's also, my first shall we say serious true crime book, because they only true the book I've written prior to that was man overboard, the counterfeit resurrect. Phil Champagne, which is Bentley, a humorous true crime books. But there's nothing humorous about Bob there's a family at all. Was my first book for Kensington Publishing's, Pinnacle true crime series. It came out

in two thousand and immediately went to the New York Times bestseller list and it went there so quickly that they ran out of books. So it was good from a sales staff. Point, although I would have liked to have it on the New York Times, bestseller list law, within one week, but people couldn't buy the book as they sold him out so bad. I think, part of the part of the the attraction was that what we now know it was a little more common back. Sixteen, so seems like a long time ago now that buddy sliding their entire family was not so it was fairly rare. Wasn't it well yeah you especially? It means it for someone to murder, a lovely woman and two little girls, and to do it so brutally was just beyond the comprehension. Thank God I mean

You could not have envision yourself doing such a thing and I would venture to say our listeners could neither, but this was not, anything that kept Kirby Anthony from committing this most horrid crime, and we'll talk a little bit. I think about his girlfriend a girlfriend named Debbie heck, whom I've met one of those people whose or describer. Their soul is on the surface of those people. You can read every emotion that's going through them, while you're talking to him right and bright. Very bright young lady who had started dating Kirby when they both lived in Idaho, and she told me that the first six months that they were together, she thought she was the luckiest girl, if not in the world, Eastern Idaho he treated her like gold, was wonderful to her and that one night she served corn as a side dish for dinner

he says. I don't like corn and properly beat the crap out. I mean just beat her to a practically a pulp and said if you ever try to leave me I'll, kill you well that pretty much sets the tone for their relationship for the next few years. She was a prayed to leave him because she knew damn well, he would kill her but as long as she was with him, she was alive, but she would stand up they have screaming fits in matches and even once on the cop came to protect it, but they had to give her back because she was afraid she'd be killed. If she revealed just how bad things really were, And they went little glass to go ahead. Sorry let's ok, so they! So he close to Alaska with Debbie heck in nineteen. Eighty six Disney. But there's a reason why they go there. Yes, good. Let's get to let's get to Nancy

and let's get to John Newman, and We really don't. Maybe could tell us a tell us about Nancy Newman. He was born in California, and later moved to Idaho Anne met, her husband in twin falls. I believe John so tell us. She's a cpa. The one thing that's real: not really really clear in your book. Is why this very very wanted couple she's a certified accountant, and he's a very talented man why they wanted to move from Idaho Anchorage AK it was because of I remember correctly. It's been awhile since I've read the book by remember correctly, He had been working, John being the husband but working. On the pipeline deal. They had up there and may Real good money. Well, that was kind of coming to a conclusion and he was going to be retrained well the money he would make doing what he

had been doing as far above, which would make it the cpa so she and her sister were both working at guineys, which is a very popular. I got a hometown. Restaurant is waitresses and he had gone back to California to be trained of a very skill locksmith, which is a lucrative profession and so he's off at Locksmith School she's, working in Guineys restaurant, with her sister and raised these two little kids, that kind of clear that up sure, now so, how does it come that? And what is the relationship between Cheryl Ann Paul, Newman, her her husband and Kirby Anthony and then tell her why Kurbani Anthony makes his way to anchorage of all places. Well. The Jose Cross Pollinated, kind of a matter of of just varying sisters. This is bearing brothers.

You know. Seven brides for seven brothers Families were related, John, One is, cool to Kirby, Anthony by marriage. And the reason, Kirby and Maybe go to Alaska is because- Kirby had murdered a twelve raped and murdered a twelve year old girl. And he was afraid of being caught for doing that, so the smartest thing to do was to get the hell out of Idaho and that's what he did now. When they got to Alaska Kirby Add another murder to his, dare I say credit, and that was a fellow name, Walter Napa. An Applicat family is very well known in Alaska native Family can look him up on the internet. There are very, very large family, very influential, L in the native community very respected Walter.

I don't know what his relationship was with the other members of his family, but he was a so is a transsexual or transvestite over two are different. Street worker. Now you gotta remember that this time in Alaska, the prostitution was so thick, shall we say Automy individ being big, but you could go down the road and there would be six hundred prostitutes on the street in a three block radius. So thick you couldn't get on the sidewalk and the bizarre Everything is greens is cold there. These women are wearing like parkers and Muckle, some galoshes and earmuffs gloves, hard to tell if they look like you know, but there are out there intensely competing for the men who were there were working on the pipeline, so it's uh the situation of you know take with you.

You get well. Walter would put on a park up with the rest of them and present himself as a female. Well Kirby availed himself of Walters talents and was, until after Walter had sexually satisfied find out the wall. There's not a woman. He was so upset by the that he murdered Walter his body in a wheelbarrow, and we'll get out down the alley and dumped it now. The fact that he put the modeling wheelbarrow totally mystified the police. They could not figure out the tire track. They could tell something with one wheel had gone down the alley they assume. For some reason, I don't know that it was a car or a trucker, but they couldn't decipher. It did but if it was a wheelbarrow which turned out it was he was never actually charged with Walters

sure because they had enough on him with Nancy Newman in the two little girls. If, for some reason, he'd been found. Not guilty of that they probably would have gone ahead and charged him with the murder of Walter. Before he went to Anchorage Alaska with Debbie heck. How. Close was or how viable was he seen as a suspect in the this murder that you spoke about our either murder? Well, he was question And in the you guys was everyone who had been down at the beach, so we save for this kind of like this party on the beach and people on the beach, and he had loste one of his flip flops or something like And he came back from the the crime and got rid of the clothes he had put on. Different clothes lied to Debbie about it but, like I say, she's a bright girl and she had strong since

fish. Is that Kirby wasn't telling her everything didn't quite realize just I mean here's, a guy who used to throw bunny rabbits off of cliffs. You know I mean this guy was severely sick or is he still lives? We have early sick. But why don't you you know what you told you. Try to leave me and I'll kill you. She pretty went along with anything he said or did until she could fulfill? Her plan of how to get away from him now, when they're up will be talking about the situation with we mentioned that John is in California, and Nancy is at home, with their three year old and her eight year old, Melissa and a three year old, Angie sister lives, so we'll talk about that those circumstances, because it's very important to this

but also what happens with Debbie heck and with b, Anthony in terms of their work and you talked about all away to escape. Kirby tell us about. The situation on the fishing boat. Well, that that's the fast ending story, and I, when I met every heck. I asked about this specifically because I figured it looks like it was something that she had cooked up. They got a job working on a fishing boat and the fish we both going to be out. You know for x number of months well, Debbie, wisely figures. If I get on that boat she's, the only woman on the boat and if I have sex with someone in a position of power on that boat, I'm going to be protected, Kirby will go nuts and will talk about the boat

I'll be away from for several months. I can buy. You know when I get off the boat from working, he'll probably be gone, or I can get the hell out of Alaska. Why? Well, no sooner they get on the boat, then she flirts and has sex with the first mate. It makes sure. Kirby knows this. This is happening. Kirby goes absolutely ballistic. Having chest out of his mind, violent trying to get to the ship's captain locks Debbie and the first mate with whom she had just been meeting in a room where the you know on the ship, where you can't get through on the turn. This ship bring at the end of the land and they kick Kirby off for being violent, dangerous and they go back out. You know to to work with heavy on the boat for

the question I asked everyone, I met her. What I said you sleeping with the first mate: wasn't because you're just instantly found this guy so attractive. You had to have sex with him. Wasn't she was no she's? I did that on purpose, because I knew what Kirby would do and I was praying they would protect me and I could get away from him and she was right that did protector and she did get away from him. Fortunately it I'm sure this is haunted for Debbie the rest of it. All of her life is that he took out that rage on Nancy and the kids. He went directly from being kicked off, that boat back to Anchorage back to Nancy's, raped and killed her and two little girls, and I know that the Debbie's heart and mind is often gone, that she's alive in their dead, because that rage was really directed at Debbie. Despite the fact he was proclaiming his love for the entire

like I won't disagree with that rage, but do you direct rage at the person knew you kill and rape as well? So it's I could be some way. I mean yeah sure, culture matters Nancy, because she was uncomfortable around him and for good reason. I think he'd hit on her. Perhaps some sexual vibes all so. I think he may have been inappropriate with the elders of the two girls in the girls may have said something she did not feel comfortable having him in the house. And she told her husband, that's told her sister that and they told him when he came back. No, you can stay here. I don't want you staying here. So that's a double dip stay there. He did stay there with Debbie, though they were. They will did welcome, And it seemed like they didn't know, it was no, but it seemed from the tone of it that it was a fan.

Only thing that we're going to bring this guy in they knew this guy had a troubled background. It wasn't like Jaune didn't know that, but the thing he didn't know- and you write in this book- that Kirby Anthony's mother, Peggy. News that he was a suspect in the murder and- and they were not told so, but let's get back to this dynamic, because this guy that's obviously had this background that obviously a psychopath by now, but the family doesn't know it and then, She's, a sweet woman and the kids are fantastic and they well Debbie and Debbie is a nice girl and Debbie and Kirby seem to be at least t exhibits like a psycho path, at times it's time yeah well there there in that home. What is the dime, traffic in terms of John, when he's there and then John, when he realizes hey, I got to go to California to be retrained he's going to be alone in the house. What is the diner,

who's nicer, John or Nancy. What, and how does Kirby ACT? Tell us but that initial time and he lives with them, which is stab Lish is quite this behavior or their behavior, when he first gets there he's welcome unconditionally you know with open arms to give it again to help it. As you mentioned, Debbie is just a sweetheart You better you'd like her immediately. You know a slight little thing: sweet as can be no guile about her whatsoever, Kirby's farm with superficial, but then again is a different personality and if he's got his girlfriend so sweetie much of summer give me characteristics and he's there to get work well and being as it is

mom Peggy is not alerted them, and she knows that he was a suspect in this rape and murder of the twelve year old girl, but to very protective mother. Stop projecting Nancy very well, but you know protective mother, so everything appears at first to be. Ok, but bit by bit and day by day, The vibes from Kirby change when John's not there as he's look at it Nancy, like you know, he wants to write her like the pony in front of the supermarket and I could see, there's a could be that the eldest daughter is something to her mother because dance, he confides in her sister that she is not comfortable having kirby around gives me the creeps, and really happy when Kirby and Debbie go off to be on that that ship for six months or over lawyers.

So I mean we think about dealing with cycle path like that is that you know the facade starts to crack after awhile. Now, unbeknownst to fancy is that she thinks he's going to be gone for quite awhile and John believes he's going to be gone for awhile. He comes right back to the house, like you say right after this and the Nancy say, come on back or you can stay here, some more or what dear, no, no she's, not that excited no she's, not comfortable she'd, rather he didn't and that pit zoom off. There's. No, you can't, and I now have Debbie had been there with him. If they would have come back and said, gee, you know the ships anchor something. Can we stay here for a cup more days? We got enough we move into a motel by might have been ok, but he was not about to. Let crew be back in did know he can stay there, and if

use and she told John, she wasn't comfortable and John said: don't let him back in so how much does Kirby Anthony know about again it I'm trying to get the feeling that you have in the book in terms of that uncomfortable ness, but are they really letting on to him, and he goes and fine is a roommate not too far away live not too far away Dan Grant, I believe so is he still well back into the house, and is there any altercation at time to say we don't want you around here, Doll aside. Get the feeling that it was. He gave him the crease. If you ever met Someone who gave you the creeps you find some excuse not to be around too much. You know media's family, but they don't want him in the house. She doesn't want him around the girls, you know so he may come over. She may be cold as ice to him. You know what you want. You know Norma are you getting all were busy or whatever the hell? It is?

he gets into you just get this new roommate and all that stuff. But he knows how to get in, he knows where everything is, he knows that place inside now and he goes to do what he wants to do is just going to do it and nothing is going to stop it. And what is it with his relationship with the the eight year old and a three year old, his nieces, and see one of these guys it takes them out. They have some kind of relationship. Does he play with yeah yeah? What are you what he would he would play with them? Now, here's something really just Serving the little one, which I believe is that Angie's is the little one. He would take her by the hand. The reason struck a chord with messages with my daughter, but my daughter had a bad solder. Joint their arm would come like a poppy pop out of her sockets He takes the girl by the hands and swing her around the room. You know they do like you know,

with her going through the air while he's swinging around by her hands. He did that. Twitter Throat, let's get to the day, That this happens or the night before this happens, the precipitating events before hand, because those are very very important, Is there any. Seemingly again, where we have to go by that, there is no real witnesses, except obviously call Anthony after this, but let's talk about the night before what Transp fires. What's the situation to refresh my memory of what you're getting at here 'cause, I don't really have the book in front of me that it's been awhile since I've read it. So I'm to refresh you could help refresh my memory. Then the details will pop in well on the on the evening in question. Anthony is tells police later that he is with some friends

and they're having a party, of course, when we would a little bit later about the trial, he has different alibi in varying alibis. Apparently he goes out to a party with some friends. Does Cymbalta for drink some beer. And this party is supposed to break up around well around eight hundred and thirty. In the morning, eight hundred and forty five pardon me in the morning when his own phone friends testified that this is when I left that party he'd. And went to another roommates or friends, place Curt Mullins at one thousand and thirty and We have Nancy Newman is. Is employed at Glenis, restaurant and Glenny's. Restaurant is in a panic at six ar at eight hundred am because she supposed to be there Six hundred am so they make the calls and Cheryl Sister is called

and Cheryl and Paul go to cover. What is has to be wrong, because no one is answering the phone and nobody's heard from her. They know who wouldn't show up for work. I mean that's, that's too much. You know she She was very, very good about always coming and her car was still where it was before. 'cause you got a ride home I mean there's, you know there were just so The whole thing just didn't look right and of course, when of course now. The book begins. Is them getting that Powershell getting that call from guineys restaurant. And they run over there and and Paul had Ferrell day in the in the end. It is a small, fairly small apartment. See like in the case sure he goes down the hall and that's what he sees what's taken place ice

cannot imagine how what kind of horrifying shock that would be. He he comes down the hall. She starts to go back, it goes no, no, no they're all dead, and she just course freaks out and ugh Grab the phone and and their outside, because they called nine one, one and and they're just a hot, sweat panic his whole Kirbys Kirby's whole alibi. Business was so easy, to show that it was complete nonsense because he say things that were stupid. You know one thing with the cycle path: you probably notice Dan. Is it through egos are so incredibly enormous, though there almost always either want to defend themself or be co counsel, that's how smart they think they are well. Kirby was the same way. He had himself appointed his own, no co counsels to his attorney and it was insanity in the courtroom.

When this guy was he would he get up there babble for hours, the judge how to shut him up and he's talking about the case is talking about. Love poems that Debbie heck. You know I mean the guy was tell you how extreme this was. I would say I believe this is mentioned in the book. He had, or still has undoubtedly cycle pathic eyes, which is not a song by Kim Carnes Psycopath eyes, like a Ghost ghost have eyes that look like human being eyes. The difference is when look into the eyes of a goat. You don't see emotion, human Is you can tell a lot look into someone's eyes, gazing lovingly into their eyes? You can't do that would curvy like looking at a goat, no emotion- and it was so blatant so obvious- is so upsetting that they made the defense base special glasses for him that were tinted, not

scripture. They didn't do anything except conceal his eyes, so the jury couldn't see them. How about that? Let's go. Let's go to the crime scene because we haven't even covered the. Incredible and her the crime scene itself, Paul gets to the unfortunate person gets the fine. Nancy, an eight year old and a three year old, all of their clothing, brought up so that there naked and exposed their display yeah he's maximum shock value. Yes, they just kill them in the way he kills them and impose. It is the bodies hero like haha. Look what I've done. There was head wounds, face wounds obvious sexual assault, blood everywhere evidence of

clean up a wash rag in the sink. Yeah shows how brightest ideas for murder murderers? He wipes up. All the evidence leaves the the washcloth in the sink. I We talk about Kenny Spatafora and a guy named reader and Detective Grimes, and these guys, no nonsense and very, very professional and really knew that they had this huge case here and they better not mess up one little bit away. I'll. Tell you what I first went up to investigate this case. Very first thing: this God bless it might Grimes. Who have been head of the homicide task force would, since retired, he came back to Anchorage, especially for the yes, and he put on a slide show for Maine from the variable getting the investigation all the way to to the end and with the absolutely everything. So I cannot, praise him enough also can Spatafora

and the other detectors we're totally cooperative nowadays, really everyone talk about it instead, Spatafore is so sick of the story by, but don't try to get ahold of him to do it, tv thing on it and he Do you wanna talk about anymore, which is too much you know, but they were fantastic, so incredibly, cooperative with Maine and where had been in the past is Anchorage had a terrible closure rate on their homicides. They were down to like under twenty five percent. You know they do not know how to preserve a crime scene, how to protect it. Anything like that well. When my Grimes got in there is head of the homicide task force. They whip that thing into shape. What was absolutely exemplary, they did absolutely everything right. They didn't cut the corners and then Jungkook

they were willing to talk to. Experts ac come out to me is one of the finest examples of professional homicide. Police work done by the acreage homicide task force in this case absolutely now they gathered evidence and the evidence at the crime scene was the I'll just jump to the key parts is that there was tipped in that she got from Wendy's restaurant, where she would put her tips in and there were for your prints on the inside of that and the money or something taken that in was obviously discovered in emptied there were when we talk about who do about that. Kirby knew about that. Kirby knew she had a big tin like a big. You know, like candy, comes in the candy ten you know, or cookie tin and she kept all of her tips in their change tips and he knew it. And suddenly they're all gone and been replaced

His fingerprints also a camera very expensive camera that belonged to John John, was that it had little photographer by hobby. And do a lot about cameras. Kirby did know anything about cameras. He stole the camera which was later found in his in his possession, and he was also rolling up all sorts of change in those little paper thing easy used to take to the bank. I don't know if he thought he had some sort of Colgate Guard all invisible shield around it to protect him. But no no one said he was rational. Now at that time were talking about the again many times. Talking these stories about the very beginnings of dna. So we're going to talk about. I will typing, but not right at this minute, but they gather all kinds of evidence Fiber evidence there's some kind of special type of gloves. With a green fiber that are found there. There is pubic

gathered there Is obviously fingerprinting done shoe prints done? There is a bloody handprint, palm print very fresh print as well, because we're going to because they have the the of enviable task of having to fight in court. While his prints are already going to be there yeah wait till they have big issue. I gotta tell you who did a fantastic, brilliant idea, but it didn't play out in court as it should, which I'd. Never. Quite really, understood how it got ski put up in the courtroom presentation, but here was the idea. The objection was well, of course, Kirbys everything is going to be all over the apartment because he lived there before well once it dries given with fellow was who-

said. Ok, when was the place vacuumed we turned out. The apartment have been vacuum just the day before I before. So, if you would take that vacuum in her bag and approach it exactly as you would an archaeological dig of layers of civilizations right. You could tell How long is you know when, when Kirby was there an when he wasn't gonna see what I'm saying he took the dirt in them? bag. In order of, however, Recent to oldest you could exam images like you would an archaeological dig and the way the concept was present. The way they approach it was brilliant, hey and it showed that the stuff from Kirby was recent and not from when I'm being there before, because you

find that farther down in the bag, but in the car room somehow when they presented it. Some guts And it didn't come across his comprehensible, which is really too bad 'cause. I thought it was very clever approach. One of the most brilliant things and lucky things come to the forensic rescue here in this. Is that. The issue of Kirby Anthony having head lice tell us about: that was they had like Jasons pubic hair also, guys are crawling with it, what a character anyway ND. Find his pubic hair with the lights in it will. Obviously, if you got a living life in the pubic hair. That's that's obviously recent and not from you know four months ago, and that was important.

Now we didn't have. The dna like we have done of course, had existed with the tested. It was pre dna closest thing with blood Allah typing, and it's not precise, as even the early dna but precise enough to make it fairly clear that yeah, the blood typing and everything there is consistent with Kirby Anthony Course- would also be consistent with other people, but when you put all the other circumstances together, it makes it perfectly clear but at palm print you mentioned Was on the wall above the kids bed, that was his bracing himself against the wall. While they said really violating the little girl I found, particularly disgusting too, is that there was defensive wounds to these children too, that that they've tried to fight this creature, that they knew and thought was a loved one.

Yeah, that's it's camera cold weather was that they figure that the mother had to watch him. Violating the little girl or the go go to watch him violate the other ones too. He even mentioned that when he was out afterwards when it all happened, it was in the news I'm going, oh, isn't that your and goes oh yeah, just horrible, but Missy had to watch. Well. How would he know that yeah? Now, let's go into this like within two one, slash two hours, you say: Spatafora, Ann Grimes, an again you stressing they stressed that jeez they didn't have. They just had to keep an open mind, but they are Speaking to and had a number of interviews with, with him and and you got to think they have to give him the notification of his aunt and his niece is being killed, then didn't give him.

Any details of sexual assault didn't give any details. Of course, that would be a wrong procedure in an approaching this guy. What was his action is very, very Kelly active. We could see these two guys looking at each other yeah or the user's reaction was was not typical of or someone who gets such devastate. News if you ever had devastating news of someone's death, someone that, you knew and loved over close to it's shocking. You know you're just kind of numb, you know, and it may take a minute to cry or what if you're going to do, but it's a blow emotionally, almost put a shock state. He did like. It was little theater. Oh, no, not that how horrible you know what the hell I mean. His response was. Totally unbelievable and

It goes from there. Is it immediately is like oh well, the you know what color was the car. I mean something totally. This is Don Sequiter of emotional non sequitur that had the As you say, looking at is really going what the hell you know, but the. They were very smart and that they weren't going to conclusion jump on this case. They weren't going to pick someone and make given the corporate, even if they weren't they, they did have a suspect that is suspect who lived in the complex who had a previous history of having been in Sex offender, but nothing of course, a little this nature and that individual upon hearing about this through a suitcase out the window and ran away now that it's pretty damning, except for the fact that this fellow rightly figured oh. No, these guys are going to think it's Maine.

When it's not, I better get the hell outta here, which you did now when the you know you mentioned. This is the first time that an FBI Profiler was allowed to testify in court. Will before that happens, if you get all of them, it is much to the credit of crime, is better for the good of the homicide task force that they contacted the FBI. Judson Ray one of the top profilers brilliant fellow, and he said, don't tell me anything, just fax me: the pictures of the crime scene. This is really amazing. They fax him the pictures of the crime scene. That's all he studies the crime scene and give back to the MRS okay. Here are seven things about the person who did it

He knows these people intimately he's not a stranger. This is the most important thing he knows them. He knows them real. Well, also he's more than the white more than twenty less than thirty, he has a physical defect or so and embarrass is him that may not be noticeable important anybody else, but it is to him. He works at a variety of menial jobs, he doesn't have a career he's the youngest boy, for the family. I mean he's going on with fortune, teller with these seven care, distinctive characteristics, that the perpetrator will have and he was absolutely correct on every single one of them. Yeah. And so that's the only one of their potential suspects who matched

up right down. The line with all seven of those characteristics was Kirby Deanthony. Now, in their investigation, they are looking into his background whether it can be used in court or not and will get to that, but everybody that there's a very just the Caden educated audience and listen to this, and they know about prejudice and a little about it. Disability, because of that prejudice and how it will bias a jury so pass defenses, are listened to by the judge, but usually deemed inadmissible, just the way that you figure someone on this crime based on what they would have been have done before, and this is a big issue- also in the Phil Spector Case- if I could do that's just for a moment, a close personal friend of the woman who died in the Phil Spector case, and I were on the air together on Matt Allen. While radio show and the

Well, it was going on and on about. Well, you know, spec to his own zip, pull out a gun and recording sessions with John Lennon with the Ramones and HEAT fire shot the ceiling, and he is it, anybody Jennifer shot anybody. You know- People who work there. They came back and kept working with him. You know the fact that the guy did that so I have figured recording studio. Does could make a murderer? You can't strap those things together. You know you can't convict. Someone on what you think we would have done to win at five hundred and ten years ago? If things were different, you know it's so that distance. And so the thing is you don't want to convict someone whose innocence, based on something they they did once before. Of course you talk about how they had look into his past, but also the way he way he was question. Of course he gave his alibi and there was this

a window of hour and forty five minutes unaccounted for. According to his own his own alibi itself, but then also spoke Foreign grimes and reader start looking into his background and they found examples one thousand nine hundred and eighty two with this Thelma stall. Wheelchair, bound and alone, a curb With this guys tell us about this, I mean it breaks into this womans home threatens her Rob's are all this stuff in this just goes to show that that his viewing the weak and defenseless as targets is very significant. Now, of course, we bill from current research did people who are tax the week, the old, the young, the defenseless is history

change thing that comes a lot from fear because they themselves had been the week one, the defenseless One, the one who was put upon in the very sight were thought of someone weak and defenseless. Brings up feelings of fear in them. They don't want to be that person anymore, and they despise that they fear it like it's a snake and that makes it their targets, and she who's more defense is an old woman in a wheelchair or a seven year old girl, and there are twelve year old girls for a guy, dressed up like a woman who doesn't want to be outed. These are kirbys targets. Now we had a really pretty good go ahead. We completely forgot to that real heartbreaking. Part of this is at the same time this goes on

This loving husband in this great relationship, father of two. He is mourning the death of his entire family and he gets this news from a telephone call. And he has to wait. You can imagine waiting in airport terminals to get back from California. And a lot of data we couldn't do I mean that is a horrible tragedy. Is that, like gp races back, you can save them? You know I mean that's, this is so horrifying situation. It. God, I'm so glad I didn't have to live through myself. I gotta tell you, I was writing this book. I was told ahead of time by Gary seeking who probably know great true crime writer. He said Burrell, he said be prepared to cry. He says, 'cause you're going to be you're, going to see things that you don't want to say you're going to things. You don't want to hear and it's

would be for you're. Not you haven't done one of these before but I'ma tell you it's. You know, you're, not an emt, you know: you're, not a we're going to hospital you're, not law enforcement have to see these horrible things. He says well, the first time out, he says it's going to get you and he was absolutely right. The little one Angie her birthday was, I believe, September 21st or September 23rd. Eleven to my daughter, who's, the put in the same age, her birthday was September 23rd. I think the Ganges with the 21st anyway. So, but I see the pics pictures of Angie's room. Everything is the same. All the pop culture things the bedspreads, the toys in the room, all the same toys.

Same kind of bedspread. You all at my little pony rainbow bright, you know is all the same as my daughters, and that was that was boy that was the trigger. Maybe I mean that that really hit me hard of trying to put myself in in the father, Zpass This is a hearing. This horrifying news consider looking at the pictures of this crime scene was just devastating the entire time. I was writing the book. I had pictures of The two little girls taped to my computer monitor, so entire time. I was writing it. I was writing it for them yeah. No, with this investigation, spider foreign grimes- there not easy be on Anthony but Anthony as you describe the psychopathic character. He has an answer for everything he's pretty very

you bright, anticipates where question things are going to go. Eight seems to have an answer for everything, but it is crucial that the police take down all of his information the way he has in various time, you just described his alibi. It's it's varied! It's, change, so they have to have to put that down, but there easy on this guy but they're also not going to arrest him right away because they're gathering evidence this is, there's nothing to be able to do that. A way to arrest of the longer they wait to arrest him. The stronger their case is going to be. They don't want to rush into soon but I should not have all the Everton. Although you know the weather is circumstantial or hard physical evidence they want to make sure they got a got. This case lockdown before they make a move. Yeah I mean Kirby's alibi of him going two was at burger King, getting a croissant sandwich.

And sitting in the parking lot. Composing love poems for Debbie. Well, that's really easy. To check out all you, gotta do is go to burger king and say you know you got the receipts to kind of pop. The croissant sandwich and you can't miss him. He was driving a one ton, flatbed truck you. Would When is that going through the drive through and I want a burger because you know people burger king. What are you tired, didn't know, know, know. Guy and of one ton came by and bought a croissant sandwich still assisting ever happens. So I mean he wasn't bright enough to come up with an alibi that that he could manipulate You know they keep up with an alibi. That was very easy to disprove now? How does he get to the point where he fee Those are the pressure from the police. What is it that it finally gets to him? And after that he knows it,

under surveillance, but so they've got almost twenty four hours. I know it's on this. Guy did a very interesting thing they played with him on this. They would keep him under surveillance and follow him everywhere park in front of the house? Is it cetera to rattle him. We're here. You got so paranoid over this and he was calling up to complain when they weren't following him, and he was complaining that they weren't following him, but he was, you know complaining about them being outside The house, when they weren't you know they just really got him rattled? That way, and I think this is it, is he decides that all the pro Just getting intense here, I'm going to make a run for it. Ghost was roommate and says ok, I'm leaving, don't tell me buddy, I'm leaving it's a six hour drive now one ton. From Anchorage to the US canadian border.

The roommate. Wait six hours to tell the police I know what you did for those six hours with a wrestle with himself emotionally. Morally ethically, does he ran out of this quote friend, or does he call the cops and say Kirby made a run for the border? Well, he does call the cops six hours later. This could be said for the canadian border. Will they jump on the phone as fast as they can and they call the of the guard at the? the you know, the american sides, the Alaska side of the border and say how old is the guy in a one time is the suspect in the Three homicides yeah So don't let him pass too is well you're too late. You already did the about three mile Noma. Land between the American order to Canadian or you get the canadian booth.

They call the canadian booth say the same thing at the same exact moment did Kirby Anthony pulls up to if this was a penis is like perfect for tv movie right I mean it's just your you know and the, but this really happened the minute, the second the curve, He pulls up to the window at the canadian border is when the guy answers the phone And they tell him he goes hopefully toward any suspects ramas I coming into Canada, thank you ah and they turn him around. Won't let him in and send him back to the american side where there waiting for him it's interesting to do not charge him for the homicides. Are there not telling me the rest of the homicides there? Is it still not ready to do that? What they bust him on he's got some marijuana residue in his ashtray. At that time it wasn't legal

You know as legal as it is now and that's what supposedly they they get him for. Then they when they charge him and you mentioned the rape, they men in the homicides and they say kidnapping, he doesn't say, white. Your accusing me of murder well known I'd, never do that choose me rape, I'd! Never do that. It was. What do you mean kidnapping? That's only thing objects to. What do you mean kidnapping under Alaska law? Few restrained somebody, even though going home. That could happen. So what he was I said about, is that there were charged with kidnapping not with baby, raping and murder. In fact, Spatafora told me that they would once he's arrested impressive through the trial. They

good earth cam. You know they did make a baby raper in this sort of stuff, an didn't faze him in the least, but when they mentioned him having sex with Walter, oh that really got him upset. He didn't mind being known as a baby raper, but it the fact that he had oral sex from a guy who looked like a woman, totally freaked him out that pissed him off. It's interesting too. Is that the fascinating sort of under qualified, at least that's what the excellent. Or very, very qualified defense salemi, for for Anthony used, but was interesting in that Judd. The FBI profiler expert he. He advised that that the black man and the white woman would really insight Kirby Anthony

to be rattled once to the point- and we've alluded that too and in the introduction that he would to stand in his own defense and what a surprise, but also that again he's not so worried is a baby killer in a rapist and of his own family, but that he may be gay, but also that he's really incensed about black people to his knee. Yeah he's very racist. So I talk to Debbie about this. This was part of the prosecution strategy they had Justin Ray was black sit with Debbie and they changed her hairstyle. They bait account real curly and it have judges, sit with girl with his arm around her looking at each other got enough flirting sort of way, which is an act just to piss off Kirby. Just to see if it would really rattle him. Now. I ask Debbie about this, and she said I don't know it says this was this is some idea they had, as I don't know what what difference is made if any she said, but I went along with it and there were pictures of the newspaper of her sitting with Judson Ray. You know kind of smiling

at each other. You know I mean it was. It was just done to kinda irk Kirby mess with him, which I'm in Kirby was so messed up. Anyway, I mean what he Giving here's with guy, like I said his ego, is so huge. She was going to be his own co counsel, objective things you an object to ranting about things and his Everyone in his closing arguments. Word even arguments is reading those love poems to Debbie. Now Debbie bless your heart when she first read this book. Murder in the family Bible bear available. Now, wherever Bush is old, she didn't believe it. She had suppressed all this. So deep bet, she's Oh no! This isn't true. No, I didn't know I what I did. I didn't do this. I didn't do that. You know I mean she just had buried it. Never. Hold anybody about it. She had a new boyfriend, super

nice guy, I don't know whatever happened their relationship and really nice guy. I think it was Jake that she was with at the time, and she read the book and she told me the first. She was angry because she didn't think it was accurate. She went to bed went to sleep woke up in the middle of the night sobbing. Is it all came back to her everything she suppressed? If they didn't want to think about, since it happened, all came back And that's when she decided to go on television with Maine and talk about it 'cause. She said that would for closure to bring it out, acknowledge it and talk about it which she did on the tv show. CALL Nw afternoon on Komo TV in Seattle bless her heart disease. They flew her up, but she is well if you bring up my boyfriend to for moral support, so they paid for him also point: I was really sick that they haven't

horribly Hill, like a barely making on tv, and if you ever see the thing I look like death warmed over, probably poor expression use considering, but they showed videotapes of Kirby in the courtroom. Reading his love poems to her during his closing argument, Ann, the host of the show turns to her and says: how does that make you feel. And there was his paws there was so filled with emotion. I think the whole room held its collective breath and she said, haunted yeah. I actually feel wanted. Let's very bar: what would let's talk? What would Hunter is that again, but a big portion of your book is the trial and and meticulously Spatafora and the prosecutor ingaldson

really do a meticulous and precise precip, in job in here and putting everything to rest all, pieces together, because it is circumstantial, inferential cases you say large and you have this person, that's willing to take the stand. And so they want to make sure they have the story straight and make sure then they know that this kind of character, they knew from the profile would probably talk too much, and I think it would contradict what he had said before and that's they were looking for so and I'll order now directly, but that's what they got every. So here is a guy who shall we say, does not preplan his response This is in detail is not well rehearsed on what to say and what not to say he flies by the seat of his pants by the emotions that hit him at the moment and it almost reminds me of that scene in movie

with Richard Gere and Edward Norton, with a guy loses understand on purpose. You know, can we call it? The film is called, but the famous movie a few irritate Kirby. If you confuse him, if you get a little bit ahead of him, he's gonna start today to cover everything. By ad Lib by seat of his pants. All this will. Well, yeah, but, and you know, and it just, it was pretty obvious that this guy was you know. Nuts is nuts, is nuts in psychopathic a cycle path, The guy was not reliable, who is not a reliable witness who was not a rational, co counsel and as the the evidence we have circumstantial or hard physical began to mow, It is reminds me of the the guy that was on trial and Susie's found, Buildings is I'm holding a press conference and I'm good to,

don't hear not holding anything you're going to prison, no one ' here's anymore. You know, you're, not the focus of attention is all done, it's all gone by and that's quite often a big shot too. Cycle path following 'cause. They love all that attention being the center of the universe and for some reason they think it's going to continue and no, it doesn't. 'cause, once they march out of that room, you're not hold any press conferences, you're not going to be the center of attention on the paper tomorrow. It's over with news of the day is the news of the day and your bure old news you, Paint a vivid portrayal of the impact This trial the community of Anchorage itself as well. And also especially for Cheryl and Paul Newman, and also there was a incident in there that Cheryl interpreted as as Kirby Anthony.

Making a statement to her personally away an additional smirk on his face. All yeah reaction so tell us about this and said it. I always say this is something that John, the poor, John Newman, whose wife and kids have been murdered by him. It is, is you're, stupid. I mean what the hell sort of thing to do is that I mean this goes to show that degree of lack of control, the guy even had over his own verbage period. For trial. For murder is going to tell the surviving members of the families Cheryl and John there stupid. It is You know, thank God. I can't relate to it, but every step of the way he condemns himself M every every bit at them. So it has the go ahead, It's not really a slam dunk. Here too, as you as you described in the book, there's a really capable defense

For name Salemi, which got really fights every There's a lot of stuff where the jury must have been you know, ok, okay, we're going to we're going to take a break here and did things outside the jury and England's and complain and it said: listen we already went through some of this stuff, but Salemi did everything he possibly could to slow this trial down and to give his and as much of an advantage as he could. I you widen hired a guy. You know people say how can you defend that monster will tell you they have something against it. It said until you or one of your family members is arrested and you need a defense attorney. Defense attorneys aren't simply defending the individual who we are weird the US 'cause the present in addition, innocence. You have to start with the presumption of innocence. No one has to prove their innocence. You have to prove their guilty. You have to start up bully leaving their innocent presuming there Edison until proven otherwise, and so what the defensive

he's doing is he's defending the law is defending the constitution is defending everything. Supposedly we stand for because you don't want to convict an innocent person, and so if the law is being violated, if the constitution is being violated, the protocol being violated in the prosecution, this individual, it is the duties porn duty of the defense attorney to defend the laws, defend the protocols of defend the constitution thank God. Otherwise, you'd have more and more people railroaded we've seen happen all too recently. We just had the John Ferrix Excellent book and, of course all of his books are out but the uh. Just all the news that the six people who were wrongfully convicted of the same murder. We're just said: free and allowed to get was like twenty one million dollars or twelve million dollars in wrongful conviction payments.

It happened. You know people who are innocent. We, you sent away for years and which is a tragedy And, let's see I mean we're going to have PTSD is like being in a prison camp except worse than what Be worse than you being accused of an convicted of a heinous crime of which you are one hundred percent innocence, and scary baby. Now I will. I have been falsely accused by self of a horrible thing that I had nothing. Variables, even there and years late? I still have people saying gee. Were you involved with such and such I said no that was even there but someone who was mentally diss. Urban later admitted they were. They were lying tossed by name into this incidents which I won't get into, and You know there are people who say well, Julie, wouldn't said his name unless it was true know the person two years later admitted they were mentally disturbed or off their medication. We wanted attention,

and it's not using my name. We get them attention. Well did it also got me attention. I wish I didn't much care for. Down with it this trial. We, as you mentioned that it really put the nail, his own coffin. He takes the stand, he's a psychopath. He he's Narcissistic so he believes he can bamboozled. Everybody. Of course I've seen it myself, where the dirt examination Of course, your lawyers, not questioning you he's, he's pudding. Fourth, you for alibi in your reasonings in your story in a way so that the jury can identify and personal guys with this person that supposedly innocent, but then of course, then we have the very capable Ingaldson tearing him a new one in terms of discrediting his alibi. Showing the huge lies and contradictions that he had so

Tell us about that dynamic what it gets down to What are the key points that you know the Kirby should give up on he's gonna be angry. You know, Kirby is not an even tempered hello, an eagle said, is tearing apart his total PS alibi above the bird, working in the croissants and you know the missing. Time. How long would it take to the rape and murder these people and Kirby Polity. Well, based on my experience, you know what he said he would, leave this amount of time to do it. It would take me this, I'm out of time? You know I mean it's just it gets weirder and weirder and weirder and the tension between surprise, Secutor and Kirby but you could cut it with a chainsaw uh, Kirby is getting increasingly plus, would increasingly angry increasingly irrational. Ah in the process. It is

couple see anyone in that courtroom and the jury that Kirby Anthony is down or what the approach it would be guilty as hell when the book first came out in paperback, which is still available in paperback from Kensington Pinnacle, true crime. I got a phone call from Kirby's latest attorney and she says I did you write this book as part of the innocence project to prove that Kirby Anthonys Innocent of this horrible crime- and I said no- we pub push this book because he's so damn guilty and which is true: we've we have apolosi policy agenda that you don't say someone's guilty and let's say, unless they are, you go back to my

my good friend, the late great author of the book about the murders in the yogurt shop, where at the end The book the author says, I think these people are innocent and he was right. They were and were later let out, there's an episode of deadly sins that I was on last year. They have a video promo for it up on. There did the deadly sin site, which is the battle between these two hookers was really heating up, and if you watch it, you know it tells the story of these battling hookers and their men and talks about the Skype might have thread Gil who the who is imprisoned for

two one years for murder and, as I told them when they were interviewing me other didn't make it on the air. I think that guy is one hundred percent innocent and why I thought it was one hundred percent Anderson. Why I believe he was railroaded uh. The woman, I believe, was yes. He certainly deserved what she got and more. She cut a deal where, if they'd only over ten years for murder. She testify against. This. Might a thread gil without fifty one years, her story changed one thousand times between one of the case started in the trial, his story, rate one hundred percent consistent from day one and yet he's in prison for fifty twenty years, and I doubt it was going to take up the challenge and then you get him out, but this happens, you know, there's there's all sorts of deals cut uh. Where we could get into some examples, but I I know you want to get back to murder in the family. Now we talk about. Obviously he was guilty as

and so the jurors came back and we'll just jump ahead to say that he was pronounced guilty. Three counts first degree. Murder two counts sexual assault, an the kidnapping, because it was a restraint. At the same. Sing. It was interesting, too, is that again, Wilson did a brilliant job throughout in cross examination and direct examination of all the witnesses, but he also did a Brill, the job of emotionally getting the jury ready in his final statement of going through every single detail, of not only of guilt on Kerr the Anthony's part, but also of recount every graphic or horrific details of the jury had often over this. For week trial that he encapsulated it beautifully. Then, when the judge was doing his tirade against, Kirby Anthony saying he had never seen anything like this before it's such a vial act. What does Kirby do

he says in your honor. He says you gotta, give me the worst possible sense. You possibly could not, even though I didn't do it, but I say whoever would do such a thing as such a horrible person, it says if you didn't give me the maximum SEN I'd, be outraged, help. But he was religious, but he also. He also said to the judge, when start criticize when the judge criticized him? He said: listen I don't want to hear that the one I'm I'm yeah, I listen to that. Yeah, it's a little. We judge you, you know you did such as such. As you know, you have to live with yourself about you know. I mean these guys just keeps ranting and the judge doesn't need to hear it does I have to hear it and it doesn't have to put up with that. Crap. No, I don't know what Kirby thought he was going to get out of it score some points and where he's already been found guilty- and I was just making a bigger ass out of himself- how big a story was this in anchorage and how big a story did this?

so huge this was I mean it's still, is considered the defining horrifying. Kay Civil in Alaska, I mean we've had some pretty horrible ones. Now I admit up in Alaska the last mail bomb case, which I also wrote about the horrifying one, in a few others, the guy who ran the donut shop, who was a kidnapping of women and taking him up with the frozen tundra, then hunting him down like animals Now we've had a few of those, but just in terms talk about little kids being brutally raped and murdered uh I mean that it goes into a whole, another level of sickness, interesting, the mail I got following this, but in the book coming out. There was one letter I got that I wish I could find it. It came in an email under my old email server. Maybe Hillary

I don't know if it was from a fellow who had been an assistant. When he was younger to the medical examiner and it was his job to go up and get the bodies out. And he didn't know what it had. Why? What any to know anything about this, except it was his job to get the bodies of the see Anna two little girls from that crime scene out of the apartment. He left Anchorage shortly thereafter quit the job Wanda being a law in force when officers somewhere in the lower forty eight- and he said emailed me and said I just read your book: murder in the family, as I was a guy, would take the bodies out and what a horrifying impact ahead on here, but he did go into law enforcement said he always wondered what what that was all about.

Who did it why he wanted, haunted him we're going to work hard, all these years. He said. Thank you for writing this book because they gave me closure to something I've been having nightmares about all these years and Cheryl bless her heart had originally written a one star review of the book which one the first review is posted. No no, no! No. This is and then she changed it. She came back and said I re to give this book a very low rating, because I live through a paraphrase- and I don't ever save in front of me, but it's actually the first review you get. If you go on Amazon, you read the reviews of the book Should I realize now that it was just telling the story and telling and factually- and she

Thank me for portraying her family is actually as I did. We spent a lot to me that she did that. Did she came back in and gave the mails that I should've given a vocal review. You know and she changed her life and as Those two those two things with one from Cheryl he's been saying. You know, though you did a good job. Sorry I said otherwise, at first it was just killed. Who so emotional does her family. And then the one from the fellow who had to remove the bodies writing many years later. To say thank you for telling the story. No, they don't sell the There are a lot of people who love true crime books. Mostly women read true crime more than men. Yet here we are two guys talking through crime. Although meter I think now is starting to look more into. It was part of the strategy of be doing true crime on sensor Download radio, which is definitely a high testosterone. Go environment, male dominated Luther ship, but I thought of doing

true crime? The way we're doing it for a male dominated audience would attracted to females, of course, would like interest, true crime and get some men too. Appreciate it it's a very maligned, as you know, the genre sub genre and for some good reasons of quite often it is exploitive, but I'll tell you it has is of french order. What I mentioned good taste for murder. People forget that television yeah, but you still there, television and newspapers our four profit. Things are not public service entities. No one gets upset for the newspaper for covering the homicide. No one gets of the tv station for covering the news of the day. You stops for a commercial for something right in the middle of these people being raped and murdered, but if

one takes a year or year and a half or two years of their life at their own expense, 'cause, true crime, writers, don't get a research budget at our own expense to thoroughly investigate and study every aspect of this case and the trial and the people involved and devote that much time to really exploring it, but they were blood. Suckers living off of the pain of others, and that really hurts because that's not the reason we write the books that you're going to get rich rating through crime rich, are you from your great book? You know it doesn't happen and what we make up for this would probably make more money working a burger king selling, the croissants ticker B, Anthony in the long run, but we do it because we believe in it weeble

leave that sharing these stories are getting into this detail. The family dynamics, the history, the background, the details of the trial and some people don't care about trials, and also, I warn people murder in the family. If you don't want to read about a trial skip it, you know read the first part skip past the trial. If you don't like trials, a lot of people said, I would say, a lot, but there's a percentage of people who don't want to know about the process of justice. In the case this one who killed who, but I think it's important when there is a trial of significance to treat it the way it should be treated which, in this particular case mode in the family. The first time an FBI profilers allowed to testify first time, Allah typing. Anything similar to DNA is allowed his testimony and the and the brilliance of Ink Wilson's, prosecutor and equal billions of salamis. The defense attorney, I think, are some the public should read should under

yeah it would be good if they did, and it would appreciate a lot more. What goes, into our system of so called justice, which we don't really have. We have a system of laws and if I can get on one in an alternate soapbox box from you for a minute when you were on on my show. You were talking about the the people who are saying to do some kind of a horrible murder and they they get to those they're well, they're, not see either insane and given some three better than put him back in society. These knighted states, is so far the other direction that is tragic. We're running off of state by state off of concepts and views. From the 1800s that have been totally disproved, and this is

Canada's approach on one side and the USA on the other, I would much favor Canada's approach to America's a pro Could you could have people here who are absolutely nuts I mean insane? Is in America? Insane is a legal term, not a medical one. They all you often mention the case of Andre Thomas who is nuts is the judge said, but that didn't with the legal definition of insanity in that state. Yes, he ate his eyeball before the trial when they found single via plucked out his other eye and ate that one too, and the judge said yeah this guys not he's out of his mind but by law he's not insane. So we said you know they know the difference between right and wrong. Well, how do you define that in Canada there was a study,

and we found it over. Eighty percent of canadian prisoners had FASD one of the side effects of Fa Sc fetal alcohol syndrome is that they don't see a connection between cause and effect. They don't not able to process what happens after I do. They don't see the connection it's like my brother is color blind. You could talk about red, blue, green, all you want, it doesn't make any difference. He doesn't see it and it's the way with people who have an illness, And will Rhonda Glover fatal beauty, they told how big it or competent to stand trial. She believed that she murdered her boyfriend because he was Satan and having sex with a homo sexual sex with George W Bush and clones.

In a cave under her house, and they said just don't mention the cave, don't mention the clones. It's too dangerous here. Take some seroquel and co I'm down? Well, because she was calm down and because she agreed not to Ben in the cave in the clones. Then she was perfectly blind to stand trial. Yeah, I think you got it. You got to look get a situation. No I'm I don't know if I'm more objective or possibly possibly more objective, because we do have a system like you said it's so opposite. Dealing with same kinds of cases and at the system is based on the same system. Then it's based on the same system. Why are the laws completely diametrically posed almost now. What I'm saying is this, if you say, okay, feel alcohol syndrome. According to who,

who, according to the lawyer, according to the you know, it's just like when they try to say good with a medical reason. I thought it was a medical research project wasn't. But if you got a needle alcohol syndrome, rendering that you have no intent if you have Volent intoxication rendering with no intent to kill, if you haven't sanity, weather temporary, there never ever diagnosed before and then cured with six months as we as I talked about the doctor in Montreal, and then you have the other insanity which again is schizophrenia, and then, despite how many years you may be suffering from schizophrenia in the case where Vincent Lee was released, the doctor said: listen we're going to let him out. He has not hallucinated in one year, so that's grounds tool. Get someone out or that my question would be who

making sure he takes his medication or do they give it to every six months by injection. I have a friend this is your friend. I can do it every six months. He simply gets a shot. The bodies, never you know, never been a problem. You know people I have a mistaken idea that people who are paranoid schizophrenics are violent, which is there no more, violence, anybody else in the population, the best indication future. Violence is past violence. If they were violent before they were diagnosed with schizophrenia, then chances are they'll be violent afterwards, if they weren't violent before being good. Those chances are, they could be very easily treated with the shot in the tacos every six months. The question is: are we more concerned with retribution, then we are with resolution, and therein lies the question. If the person- who is totally out of their mind, can be sure or help to just to have spend the rest of their life being of

positive contributing member of society to atone for their sins, shall we say or do we want to make their life is miserable as possible by putting them in a it in denying the medication for the rest of their lives. So the that's oid. And we have the fellow down here in California who suddenly believe that God told him, listen, there's going to be a giant earthquake. Millions are going to die, but you can stop it. There are ten people who have volunteered to give their lives to stop the earthquake. Your job is to get far should lead. Well, I'm getting your car drive around those ten people will signal you that there are the ones kill them as, Yes, you can stop the earthquake, so he goes out while miraculously sure Have ten people signal him? He kills all ten boy, but I got that job done and they arrest him. He goes well, did you notice, there's no earthquake.

You know it works. There's no earthquake! These people voluntarily gave their lives to stop the earthquake. They put him in but in for life, without parole and gnome. Vacation, no medication at all, he's more insane. Definition is more out of his mind now than he was then uh huh. What I'm saying I? What value is that I don't I don't I think I would agree with that. I don't. I don't think I really with that, but I'm going to ask you this one question, because this is, I think why I've made this case an important case for me. What Would you do with Vincent Lee at six years, ten years, twelve years or fifteen years, I don't to me What schizophrenia is he's, not schizophrenic, he's a killer, he's a killer, he just he may have schizophrenia whatever else you want to call it so he's not. I don't thing: has anything in common. We should not compare it to other people who have simply schizophrenia.

So what I'm going to say is what would you do with Vincent Lee? Would you let him out, and is it is it do not understand the American er with now you would say I would not let him out unsupervised. It unmedicated, the general population we had. Situation here in Washington State where a fellow who was in the institution escaped, and the question was: was he dangerous and available? When was his last shot and if we You can find him before this most recent shot wears off. He'll be fine, he won't hurt a fly, it should've figured. He did get madame? It is kind of walk away off the bus of a day trip for the from the mental hospital, but he not had his shot, probably when the shots were off of his entire personality change. It's kind of, like Belle Gibson, told me

well, when I was doing maverick, were, is talking to goes. You never want to see me drink is I can't drink. I said why is that it is you'd hate me. He says if I have a drink, you If something happens chemically in my brain, I become the. Biggest a hole in the world. I say horrible things, rude things they would probably destroy my career. If I were to drink there you go, but he knew it. But yet he went to a barmitzvah got drunk and then it goes on some bizarre rants. You know, I felt sorry for MEL in the case 'cause. We talked about it, you know, and he knew it was this some people just, I don't have a allergic reaction to cinnamon or my daughters look Pumpkin Pie and he said I don't know while why people lie pumpkin pie, it tastes, ok to me, but the part where your throat burns- and you can- breathe that supported understand why people like.

Well, let's go back to the introversion. Let's get back to this because you've got me. You've got me going here. I wanted to say and this is the question I asked you talk about medication working. I, Yeah, I did the research on this medication. And what I really want to give this stupid are giving a guy. You know, I think it's a new class of medication, but as antipsychotic drugs and primarily what they do with the schizophrenia is try to make him sleep as long as possible that's all one of the things I could see, but here is the thing medication works. Who says the medication works to rent. This guy for the rest of his life, it doesn't If he takes the medication who says the medication doesn't have a rebound effect actor, it doesn't work anymore. The body has a resistance to it and how would you know the psychiatrist opined that well, he would know very much like somebody would realize that,

blood pressure was a bit high, and so they would, they would approach their doctor we've got. You don't know your your it when we talk about it all as dangerous. We talk about the death of his press with Vincent Lee, in two thousand and I made a mistake. He was. He was charged in two thousand and eight so a little over six years he was released when you look just a few years later with doctor turcot six months, in a mental institution after murdering, which would have been a first degree, murder charge in a easily. And agree it ended up, but first he was put in and meant institution, and the reason for his insanity was he is lacked to get this, of serotonin. He was depressed yeah. So if you get that kind of floodgate opening, where a guy who kills his kid for revenge against his wife, which is different than Vincent Lee,

you also see that the again I can't say I scrupulous lawyer lawyer just doing his job will just Who is job and whether his client is insane in actuality or not he's going to disk right, but as a temporary insanity based on lack of serotonin. Absolutely perfect America killed people said to the heat too many twinkies. That's the thing. What I'm saying is that certainly in same people are not don't have the same culpability as a person, a psychopathic or reeve. Change killer. But should we Treat them in Soup put them in a hospital and treat them, and it should we put them in a hospital and then try get them out of that hospital, eventually, which one is it I'm all for Vincent Lee, I agreed Vincent Lee should have been in the hospital over for the rest of his life. I cannot

see how you Cortana, because the thing is, is that they can be done in such a way that I wanted that situation is taken to a very well monitored halfway house, where they're, Medic patient is given to them and under supervision just like in the prison system. Here, a few call an eight hundred number to talk for travel information about Kentucky the person that you're talking to may be sitting in a state prison, that's part of there you know training is there doing customer service calls while they are in prison, which is great to give them something to do besides sit around and shoot dope and they learn skill and they get to help people and as part of their rehabilitation. You could do. That was the computer guy. He could work on computers or do computer science, where the hell is he doesn't have to be out of the general population. Just in case I mean he could be supervised and medicated

probe relay and still be a productive member of society with that is being released back out to you know, do not take his meds. You know it is better friend of mine, I happen to bump into we're going to a dinner thing. He sitting there burning holes in his arm with a cigarette so, I walk up to him and hi how you doing anything we got like all these holes in his own. I said how long you been doing that hypnosis last night, I said, status when the pain on the outside is equal or greater to the paid on the inside. The voices stop right. He goes yeah and I said when was the last time you slap flow as last time you ate. When was the last time you took your medication. Well, I forgot take my medication. Then it was up all my burning, my arm, but trying to get the voices to stop and I didn't eat either. So call this doctor who forced Lee was just about thirty four blah. Away and it will bring him in right away, and I said no, I'm not bringing him in right away. I said what I'm going to do is going to step in full of carbohydrates at work about to have a huge potluck dinner and he hasn't eaten in a day or so

and there's lasagna there spaghetti this gets older and I'll tell you fill them full of food. Brought him back around in pretty short, order to where he was ok. Let's go see, my doctor went to the doctor got his medication and he was a totally different person that time I got him home. You know but had his bid. Mister Vincent Lee eight, if someone hadn't said when was the last time you know there wasn't supervised by other bud, schizophrenic, it is supervised every six months. They give a shot in the last six months and he works he's got a job. You know and everything is fine- he's not going to go off the rails if he doesn't have his meds and it's been the last six months at a time, so I think we have to look at it out a very individual basis. We can just have a pro She did say that they're all going to be treated this way, they're all going to be treated that way it has to be highly individualized, I've

despite everything I, like, the american system in terms of life is valued more than in Canada. You can virtually maim someone in Canada if you give him enough of a song and dance sob story about your tough background. They'd ignore the tough background that victim is going to have being virtually, and I mean literally maimed for life. They don't take that in Iteration. If somebody come need somebody on something that goes wrong? A robbery goes wrong. That person. Doesn't it doesn't do thing thirty years and testify against his his comrade. He is not for did that. So we have all kinds of advantages. We have the kind of advantage where not just assigned a lawyer. As I had mentioned, you get too if you could get rest their lawyer with your case, yeah, there's a lot of 'cause I've seen what could happen with public defenders, and God knows, there's some good ones, but they're being paid at the same fund. That pays the process

and I had a friend who was a public defender in the judge- calls him up to the bench is what the hell do you think you're doing. Did I give you my client, the defenses. Will remember who pays your paycheck no or, or Lynnwood Wa Washington, where the public defender is own be there for you if you're pleading guilty. If you're playing doctor lot of cases have covered a lot of it. Won't be there. It's a death penalty case and you're still getting an inexperienced lawyer, so the most serious case imaginable on earth, and you're assigned somebody, that's not very experienced, so you can see that that's a a built in deficit towards the The accused and where so Canada is made, some strides, it don't get me wrong, but I'm not griping and constant criticizing the canadian system for nothing, I'm horrified by it, because we We know that it's based on the same system, but, unlike America, can a

Indians aren't paying attention the media is it's not the focus. We don't have new crime writers in every city. We don't have that. Phenomena of true crime reporting, We don't have a twenty four hour news station. Like CNN, we don't have the same history of crime report and and as entertainment and as as news but is there and here in lies the problem? The USA News is not under a separate division. News is simply entertainment and people people in America don't stop to think about that I mean, if you watch american local news, you, you could sit there and clock it its if it bleeds it leads. Even if it's not news it was a bloody traffic access. That's going to be the number one story, there's going to be a story about why your life is better than somebody else is then they'll be a story about, nothing to be afraid of, and then

there will be the news sports at a happy story about an animal and that's it and you could sit there and just clock off the elements watching the local news. It has a structure and people who watch a lot of news and people who watch Doug put true crime, think the world is. Far more dangerous than it actually is, even though it is somewhat dangerous, so you did summer of a sense of perspective. I did appreciate that Canada would not allow what is it Suncoast or whatever they have. Their company was to do the equivalent of Fox NEWS in Canada B, because you have the law that it's not right. To by and call it news. Where in America you can lie and call it news all you want, because this freedom of speech, we are tabloid. Esque. And they are the tabloid. Ask news agency, son media was put on television, people rejected it has to right wing and it was dumped their papers.

Are doing horribly in accept, except maybe a couple of cities, but they are the a lot of the leader paper in any city an any tabloid. So- and you know What I want to mention about Canada is too is that when we talk about the media, it's they in here. We don't if it bleeds. It leads. I've heard more stories about Sidney, Crosby an and his potential concussion I mean we lead with sports here the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press, the most crime ridden city, murder, capital hands down the craziest stories. You've ever heard in your life coming out of a city that apparel they Canada, the polite than the innocent in the beautiful. And meanwhile it's always sports on the front page. They just had a story. Last week there look sing for a man and a woman who bit the issue the ears off of woman. At the same time, the front page is a case

for a guy was divorced, and so he sent bomb to his wife's lawyer. Anna secretary open. It in her hand, was blown off at the same time, the guy, that killed three hobos and was give. Finally Finally, the most unprecedented, the harshest case of present indication in history, there were finally able to give consecutive sentence is for the three murders which we haven't able to do with any other serial killer, including Picton. So that now we have seventy five years before he's eligible for parole, and that was just one week in Winnipeg, so you sure you play remember. The case is due s of Vancouver, where these fellow kidnapped and murdered a prostitute and the judge let him off, because she was a prostitute.

For life didn't matter well, he got fired, but I mean that's. I was happy that I was fired, but I was shocked, but that attitude is all she go. That's ok! You know she was a real person. Yes, absolutely But anyway, that's that's the situation I find in Canada, where we have just, I mean. Obviously, every system look what's happened them the the most terrible week in american history that anybody can recall is just happened in the US, while we're speaking right now. So obviously, there knee just to be an overhaul of not only your system but are so, some as well. It doesn't matter whether people can make it. Maybe the two should made it come up with something rational because, as I mentioned in the United States, were running off of off of laws and concepts that or from the 1800s, but it was wasn't.

Long ago that it was against the law to be addicted, yeah, it's not against the law to be addicted now is merely against the law to possess that which are addicted. But I think it's a lot actually have the the onus of addiction or dependence, but it used to be until Mister Roberts is cases in a LOS Angeles, California. The nineteen fifties the court ruled you can't decide baking it against the law to have the flu or gets a lot of have diabetes. Only medical but can't make a Med condition against the law. So instead they just make it so that, if, if you know you try to treat it yourself, doctor will or real doctors hard to get it. I mean we have a whole scandal here in America, with these the rehab racket you have a horrible disease, but we're not going to really diagnose who will they be diagnosed by an Ex drunk at a church basement and treat you with a book.

Yeah I mean you wouldn't do that with any other brain disorder would do that with Parkinson's. What I do with competitor addictions? Also, that's why there's this whole movement outta If you say you're going to have a drug rehab for drug treatment facility? Where is the doctor? You know where the Actual medical diagnosis was the actual treatment, is a violation of medical ethics to have a treatment plan in place before the patient Spinetta died. Most we get a lot of places that we decided to an attic because you got caught smoking pot or you know, 'cause. You got in trouble doing some math, the Was it the American Association of Addiction, medicine, special to the study down here where they found out that that the vast majority of people in treatment centers center so cold. About the diction were not even met dependent, they barely used it and got caught, and and their punishment in quotes with? being told there were drug addict? Is them being sent off treatment, whether nothing was treated?

So you know everyone's got their aggravation. Every every place has their corruption and the illness is more contagious and health and place it. On America we have corporate just trying to have prisons for profit. Well, In order to have a for profit prison, you gotta have steady flow of prisoners we'll we want him coming back. You have a system, I think that is called the justice system, the judicial system, and when you look at the way a lawyer may talk or when they talk about well, we have to you know you have to deal in politics, Erica electing. Sheriff's and electing people and, like you say that the industry that's grown up around, creating hysteria that there's more crime than to really is and there's not even more pretty block jump on it all you want That's my just show box, you know and so that

nothing, but you also have at the same time, you also have at the same time the forces that think that they were in opposition where the lawyer some lawyers, they work exclusively for people with money. So the justice system is inherently from the hop on then It's the minority and what they encounter, and so there is, there is a unknown element. How big a factor is that no one quite knows, but it seems that if you have a Ashley disproportionate minority population in prisons there, and then now there, but it we have exactly the same thing in Canada, now exactly the same thing, our minority takes up sixty five percent of the prison population, where it's less than eight or nine percent of the total population, is that the first nations people is that the absolutely sure so that is, we still have their we

faces in things is a different minority. We- have the same issues. We have the same disproportionate, so it's great for white people with money that come from good families. And it's really it's better for victims. They come from good families with no sketchy background otherwise. Annan people can say it's systemic racism like they're they're, calling in the US it's systemic raised some from the police oh, it rained they'll know, and it goes to a financial thing. You want to keep the prisons going. Racism is not just make in Canada or the US because of systemic means. I'm getting a a document from my police officer superintendent mice. My saying this is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do to these people Last night on television, you know a prominent film make here gets on CNN and says: police

officers in the entire nation are hunting black people. I know that's hours later when I turn off the tv. Five hundred and twelve police officers were haunted by a black man. The act opposite. What's Lee was saying on tv, so the thing is: we've got to look at saying that there is racism within the world. Within the country. In every community, but systemically the institution. I I see. I hear all that doesn't pleased. Yeah you're worried as a source of damage to civic yeah you're correct on that people use the phrase without they mean it, or endemic to the systemic that we have an entire system. Where I mean I've, seen it as a true crime. Investigator I've seen So the situation myself, where I would stop for Dwbob driving with a black on board and

he was. He was my passenger and they may stem and they did all sorts of stuff to him 'cause they could And but I'm not sure, What is it look at it you, people who would never do such a thing. There are a lot of good cops, but I'll tell you the book. I'm working on right now with the frank and I are doing it with Kenny Realm out for them rings a bell, be my watch. The documentary that Seventy five of other 75th precinct in New York, where the corruption was so deep. You have this kid url and Michael Dowd running a cocaine, operation right. In cooperation with Alex Diaz, was head of a dominican drug cartel Dell get, who's cooperating one hundred percent on my book

can your Ellen Alex Diaz, yeah you're going to get an inside store like you never had before. Well in this, when it comes down, the thing is, it's we've seek and you've written about it. Girl, and you know the kinds of police officers that don't have that can't be in reached and can't be the Capi criticize for their behavior at all. These are dedicated cops that live with these murders to live with these crimes, oh during their life, Bob here, so I know I know the culture of police. I know what police may think. When they see a minority. That's on drugs in a bad community after a call has been made in there and they are afraid That's where some of this comes from, but for what I saw last night with the police, not understanding a representative speaking on CNN again discount

meeting the woman who was beside her fiance recording this. It's just in appropriate, behavior, inappropriate statements. We gotta get back to just the fundamentals of justice, as some people are fighting for the wrongfully convicted other people and that's what I say in Canada. It's the wrongfully non convicted, the wrongfully under convicted and the wrongfully the victims that are not attended two and dealt with, and you can imagine the woman with Vincent Lead killed her or sign and aid him in front of police and yet. There is no understanding and comprehension of what she's gone through. There's no comforting of this woman, there's no compensate by remembers grammas name, since they might look and see his face. Clearly, the guy who got hit in the head with a brick.

During the riots after the Rodney King verdict right and he could have been killed and he would never have the same app being smashed it with a brick and he We had no desire for the guy who hit him in the head with a brick to be whore, really horribly, horribly punished. You know it didn't want that degree of in Dick this is not about revenge. You know, if you do something like that, their office is not safe to be around you. We might have to you know. Yeah. Of course I have a problem in quotes I have one of the symptoms of a sociopath or psychopath due to a head injury, although I don't kill people in problem, beat them up. But I have a very difficult time see the connection between crime and punishment, and this could be a blessing or a curse, I intellectually. I can somewhat grasp it because I read about it. A lot

but I do not see how Punishing someone beyond. I can understand separating them from society if they're dangerous to protect us, but to punish them. On top of that, we're going to spend the rest of their life in prison. Why we should make it is miserable for them as possible, deny them appropriate medical aid. People die in prison all the time from easily treated medical conditions that they don't get treatment for, because we've cut the budget for that. To me. That's cruel unusual, yet separate this person from society, so they don't hurt anybody else or make them. Penaten penitentiary is easy to make people very penitent. It's more like a crime school You become like the people you care time in space with, if you're during time in space with harden criminals, it's not going to make you penetrance it's going to just teach them, maybe how to be a better criminal or worse cremen. Societies are responsible societies,

responsible in in one part, two is as you seen in the canadian system, and I can only speak to that because it's younger and aged in the american system. But you could see it started. As you know, we started with no, you know the execution was taken away, so that was taken off the table, so people would pain in prisons, and so we've seen harsh draconian treatment and again draconian prison system system that basically the prisoners have to rip apart. Work for them to renovate it and make more humane. But what we have is is is a situation where. There is no there's only can be public Safety, but with your pudding person in an aboriginal person from a small reserve or from a small city or an innocent person in on fairly, I mean victimless crimes or or less serious charges will say and they go

to a prison system. Well, it's a gang system. Now you joy in the gang or you're a victim of the gang, so society is irresponsible, creating a system where people there should never be in prison are in prison in the people that should be in prison should be contained in prison. Harmless to correction officers harmless to Other inmates and there's lots of room for the small minority of people. That are truly psychopathic redeemable people that we should put away for incredible long, pier the time. It's not a matter of punishment, no victim. So not I not. You can ever feel any kind of gratification simply put somebody under harsh conditions, but at the same, time. It is a matter of a say. Average animal needs to be in a cage, regardless of how that animal got be demented as they are. Ok,

this is a rough situation. That's why I say you have to take each case individually, because each individual so it's always gotta, lock, 'em, all up local who up you know. You mentioned something earlier that says my soap box, that is, there was a study done in California. Eighty four percent Uh people here get their news from TV and The study was done on perception of juvenile crime, now juvenile crime, in America has dropped like a cosmic rock for the past thirty years. Juveniles are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime that are perpetrated, and yet, if you watch tv, and it's on the news in some politician running for reelection- starts, not about we've got to do something about this horrible juvenile crime.

This rising. Who contradicts the who wait a minute? Mr that's bs. Nobody, no one could know it going two contradicts them, he just let it go ahead and lie and it's really problematic the disparity between what's real and what people perceive is so vast. That is shocking. Uh politicians love to use the the increase in crime on their get tough on crime policy. Let's cut the budget to the prisons, let's have more guns down the street. Let's rest more people and by the way I have have a financial interest in the new for profit. Prison like the lady down in Arizona, did If you want to have all the all the people whose spanish, rounded up and put it over night at attention where she could make zero dollars and twenty five cents. A bed hey

came out when in reality the only increase in crime involving immigrants have been crimes against them, not by them. Yeah. I mean it's just it's just so insane and talk about fact checking I mean I see stuff on your on Facebook, so my and I see stuff, that's just so completely fictional off the wall. Stuff stated as if it's like nude These are some fat. All you gotta do is fact check this stuff, but facts seem to matter less and less. Instead of getting the information, checking the facts, applying the principle to the facts to come in a course of action, they start with their opinion and then work backwards and for investigative, true crime. Journalist, that's scary! That's real scary, you're right about the juvenile thing, this one thing and that's really horrifying to me when I read thirteen year olds in some states, if I'm not correct fourteen year old

fifteen year olds could be taken up to adult court and given life sentence is in certain states and Erica or in some cases, but yeah it. Unbelievable, so we have a. We have three in nineteen. Ninety. Three. There was a international treaty on the rights of children. There were only four countries that refused to sign the rights of children completely: the United States, I think, with Somalia, Iraq. United States wanted to maintain the right to execute children. And execute people, private and mentally ill children to in some states so I do like the situation at so but what you see the problem in in in Canada? If you were to compare it and say, let's have a vote on on changing your system, you see a heinous again in the

Last triple murderer has to be out in three years and that's, if he's one day under eighteen, so we I talk about thirteen, we're not talking about fourteen or fifteen, or sixteen were talking about almost eighteen can't be raised up to a dog court. The lawyers fight successfully against it three years custom. That's it! That's all he's out. So when you look at and it could be, a gang member could be passed via. Past before that as well. So you can see see that there's a, I think, that's the fear. Without them, knowing the canadian system, and then we think jeez we're responding to this I'll. Mandatory minimums of we don't we're, not a big fan of those, and so that's a good thing to not have, because why have a judge if he can't make an independent judgment right so An lumping everybody in like that usually gets the poor of the poor and the again the minorities to get rounded up, not the

most heinous criminal same with this in this country, it's not a bunch of lobsters in prisons? Here it's a bunch of people without a GD. That's right! You got the same thing here: bunch of people in for potty, so woman, in twenty five years? 'cause she mailed an envelope that had some. You know, blotter paper, acid, twenty five years, yeah incredible yeah, hey, I will what's in the fellow I had on. In fact, I did a blog talk, show Daniel the Janice and that he, the guy, who had already stopped selling drugs completely and the guy started new career and all of a sudden is arrested by the feds, because someone rolled over on one of those old customers from years before yeah and got sent to prison for selling LSD at grateful. You know from contacts with the grateful dead concerts what he had to do in prison. He sold heroin imprisoned to fund his his life in prison. When

The only he had to become a drug dealer in prison, always he's punished for for We need regular tees already, stop doing that again. So it's just not us yeah yeah me again, we have to get to determining what is really just in what we really had what the system is there for in the first one of these courts for the sports are certainly not for victimless crime and for endless for prosecution, for political reasons. For any other reasons, like you say, juvenile crime, you got to take the people that have a track record of violence and separate them from society. And make sure that you can prosecute them. Despite the advantages give into a defendant, that's what the justice system should do and if it has, if it's not doing that, it's not prosecuting bad cops. If it's not putting the right kinds of people in prison. If it's not again. There they're going to that's really what it's about justice system has to live up to its name, that people

can believe in it and cooperate with it and gets some semblance of again. The big word justice you There's a great book- I don't know if it's still available, but I've gotta right here in front of Maine, is called the right to be different, deviance and enforce therapy. By now close in Kittery Kittery. I eat an one of the large sections of the book is the Supreme Court and the juvenile, and it tells the yeah the history in the changes in juvenile justice system in America, it was originally created. Stepping up One thousand nine hundred and fifty nine by being delinquent many juveniles already are protesting against the way adults are building the world for them shoes with the liquid secant

dude is a term used by communities to give focus of their generalized concerns about youthful deviation and deviant behavior. The establishment of the juvenile courts are the most significant advances in the administration of Justice since the Magna Carta, the whole idea of the juvenile court was to keep these kids from being around other criminals, to keep them from being sent to adult places, to keep them from being treated as adults, because there not and their mind, don't work and process information. We would understand things, you ask him. What do you mean the right to Rome in silent, and that means shouldn't make noise in the courtroom. The kid says: yeah even know what this stuff means. Yeah it's, a fascinating girl, the force therapy and everything else, and then now, of course, we and of course everyone to listen to your show and my show and by all of my books, are by all of your books, well tell us burl we only got about

then it left tell us quickly. Obviously true crime, uncensored every Saturday tell us about to how to listen to that, and also your Facebook connection here in a website, tell us just a little bit give us the well a plug for all things, broken true, crimeuncensored, dot, com or, a lot of crime, dot com, easy one will take you too our website and and tell who are guests are who's doing what to who and there's a player on our website that has one hundred shows loaded on it that you can listen to. I also pose Mixcloud answer mom blog talk and I'll get the link for you here, but up, but up up up open link in new tab. We'll see what happens here. It's see, alot radio player and what is the address us seven main digital stream, dot com,

Teen. Thirty, nine active you just click on the link on our website or on our page on Facebook. It'll. Take you right to the streaming player. You can listen, live Out loud, radio with MAGIC, Matt Allen were on two hundred o'clock pacific time on every Saturday. You could buy my books. Of course, my most recent is re release of murder in the family. The paperback is from Kensington Publishing. And the ebook the audio book are available from uh. People, the ebook, the new Kindle editions available from wild blue Press and the regal book is coming from: listen up, audiobooks, dot com and, of course, my previous books are available from those two publishers as well Pinnacle and most recently Wildblue press dot com is where your find my most recent books. Thank you very much. Girl, it's been an absolute pleasure, discussing murder in the family, then all other things, legal and otherwise. Thank you very much. Bro bear

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