Blog talk, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. The moment he found out his brother was missing and presumed dead dead, Kirgan launched a relentless effort to bring to Sespe acted killers, a teenage boy.

Attitude and are much older drifter boyfriend to justice and find Gary Corrigan's body little did he know his quest would consume a fortune and take thirty years to reach Dramatic conclusion, supported at first by the fact that his brothers, body could not be located in a new diss attorney reluctant to prosecute as a result, Kirgan had to keep track of killers from New Orleans, notorious french quarter to LAS Vegas and points in between and wait for a break in the case that seemed like it would never come Then, nearly thirty years later, science detective work, and especially brothers, love and tenacity would combine for a resolution. That would end in a draw. Public trial in which one of the killers diary would be a star witness. The book tour featuring this evening is my brother's keeper a thirty year quest to bring two killers to justice, with my special

guys, journalist and author Chris Russo Blackwood welcome to the program- and thank you very much for granted is Interview Chris Russo, Blackwood thanks so much Dan, I'm so happy to be home with you tonight. Thank you very much again graduations on an incredible book. My brothers keeper, just before we jump right in it, is very, very involved and and Full story tell us how you came to be involved with this book and my brothers keeper. Well, when the suspects will re arrest in twenty twelve. At that time, I was having lunch with a close friend who is actually on the inside of the investigation along with TED Pergin. She was actually working with him as a public relations executive. She started telling me little details about these Rea Rep. Although she couldn't tell me a whole lot, there was a lot of confidential information and I just became totally in tree

from that moment on. I will cook and I became her competent, and got more and more involved on the inside of the story, and you know it just consumed consumed a good part of my life for the following years. Absolutely understandable. Now you talk about the early life of he and his brother TED occur again, and you do you start off with the story just to demonstrate the the closeness of the brothers, but also something that happened to TED early on, and you need to talk about the role that Gary took on. After that, so tell us little bit about the early life of TED and Gary Curry and where they grew up, you talk about Detroit, so tell us a little bit about this incident and a little bit about their early life introduced this. These two extraordinary people, sure TED and Gary grew up in suburban Detroit,

Has Bobbi died, but he was one year old, so Gary assume the role of the family patriarch as a very young boy. He was four years older than cat. Your mother made her living as a seamstress and they were so very close had actually was injured in a bicycle accident when he was like eight years old and in a statement bedside, they had paper routes together. They always are. They did a attic bedroom project. Together they were always working together. They were super close up with Gary being that his protector always looking out for TED. Now, you fast forward a little bit and we'll come back to some of the accounts of some of the things that these people did together before they became really successful business people. But then you fast forward to.

This chain of Sonic Drive ins, and you tell about the brothers set to sign an agreement so tell us where they are later in life and, as business part and what kind of businesses are in, tell us a little bit about the situation that they that you talk about, that they were set to sign some agree. Tell us what was going on at that time. With these two brothers Paragon did the Louisiana to become a fan. A sonic drive in franchisee and TED followed him here. They were on the verge of a huge sonic expansion development agreement when Gary what missing they had gotten verbal agreement The bank that day Kerry had gotten it out for their loan to move forward and TED was at home waiting for Gary to come and discuss this with them, and they were. It was a very exciting time in their life. Everything seemed to be going their way. They were on the verge of, like I said, opening restaurants in the new

Marlinton Hammond Area in South Louisiana, a big big expansion for them. So it's a very exciting time. Gary was sort of the charismatic leader of the two. While TED was more of the nuts and bolts person working in the business, they had a very, very close relationship, as I mentioned, but or they spoke in their own little shorthand language. They spoke a dozen times a day and so TED was very excited as he waited for Gary to come home that evening and tell him about what was going on the latest with the bank development and then carry never showed up Yeah you talk about also Garry's wife. Her name was Susie Anne. She who is called or if she called, and she was concerned so tell us what they do

immediately there in the Acadia parish, so tell us what TED does and Susie does and what their next move well. Gary had last been heard from. He was in Baton Rouge, which is about fifty miles the Lafayette area, Acadiana area. He they had office here in Baton, Rouge Apartment office that they using headquarters for the development and so they, they were expecting him to come home. Gary, never ever didn't come home without calling. So as soon as the morning came, she calls head to see if TED had heard from. She was very, very upset. Of course we're talking about November, one thousand nine hundred and eighty four, so there were no cell phone, there were no. There were no gps

yes, there was nothing, no way to really get in touch there. There was no answer at the land line of the apartment, so, basically ten does he have to get in his car and looks in the first place. He goes is to visit the Acadia Parish Sheriff, who was a friend of theirs KEN Garth, who top them into you know tell him what he needs to do that he needs to go to Baton Rouge. There's no missing person report for twenty four hours that could be filed. They do put an apb out on Garry's Cadillac El Dorado, but that's about all they can do, and then TED gets in his car and drive to Baton Rouge, to begin the third, having no idea where Gary might be now immediately, especially on the verge

as a reader, and I think, as anyone even TED would think that there might be something to this on the verge of this big business deal. He thinks back to these partners that were that they had previously split up the sonic restaurants in nineteen, seventy, nine and the animosity lingered. You said between Gary and me, Bradley and the other two brothers, and so you talk about that. He thought that there might be something to and as a result, he he has mentioned, or he had remembered what Mitch Bradley. It said in terms of a nightclub that he is into to so tell us how this again in this-

leads to another lead. That's why many things were, of course were swirling three kept mind at the time doctor who may have been with who you talk to. He goes in search of all over badly and he is. He is desperate when he recalled a night club that one of their business partners mid gravelly brought him to, and it also brought Gary queue up there on separate occasions. They had not been there together, so we're talking up. You know more than a day into his this desperate search all over Baton Rouge and you know TED. But before you go to the club, he actually goes to a real estate. Closing that Gerry with the President can't look, maybe a family, a part of the business expansion- and this is a huge moment for TED, because he knows that, no matter what it's going to show up at that closing it people

all able- and so when TED arrives, for the closing and Gary never shows it's at that moment. That TED breakdown, because he knows that something is very, very wrong and that he is never going to see Gary again so he's at this huge crossroads and he decides that he's not going to let his family become a victim and that's when he really good goes into action thanks, remembering the Gravley brothers and places that they might have been and he remembers this club called the night spot, which is the opposite direction from their home, but he knew that they had both been there on separate occasions. So he drives drives here. It's it's late on Friday,

evening Gary, had been missing since early Thursday morning, it's late on Friday evening when he enters this bar and one of the dancers greets him with hello Gary and he stunned, because even though he's taller and heavier surely there's a family resemblance. But you know he knows that his brother is pretty well known there. Obviously, you know dancer is calling in my name, so he asked to see the manager and it's taken to Dorothy Mcgee she and her husband, Gary Mcghee owned the club and, although Dorothy's pretty tight lipped, she does tell him that his brother was indeed there late Wednesday night early Thursday morning and said he left with a dancer named Erica. So I mean TED. If I send the TED is excited and frightened all at once, because please hit catered so to speak

when it was literally a needle in a haystack that he would have found a lead on where his brother had last been seen. So he the information to detect now with that his dog it search he can. He can. He continues this in Vesti gation, while you say the baton. Rouge police are fine only on the job with the couple detectives Bob whole. And Thompson but, like you say, the in the work, this is incredible relationship that TED has with these investigators, be cuz, he's been an honorary deputy him and Gary, so they are pretty tight and terms of gaining information. It seemed unusual or not typical that they would be

so involved, and they would have TED so employed to be involved in this search as well. Well, he immediately gained respect when he located the night spot because he found where Gary had last been seen. So the two deputies, how and Thompson immediately had this respect for him. He also had so the sheriff badge, so he was an honorary sheriff's and he did have a badge and thirdly, as the investigation was going on, he actually saw the mayor and in a very usually exchange. The mayor asked him for a contribution to a barbecue up campaign contribution which TED complied in, even though the barbeque had already taken plate, TED Maids contribution and he from then on, he had a death get the police station, so he did have

usual access. But this is TED. Clark is very unusual, made a very determined person here. Hello, I'm sorry, we got disconnected there for a moment. Tell us how Gary fines and the police find out about a person named RON done again again. It's from TED's search of these nightclubs city stumbles across from up upon this, tell us how we get this information and what information does he get about? This run down again well, first off and they have a had failed and he left with a dancer named Erica, her real name of Lila Mollen Iggy, the club owner cattle. I can put their name so from that.

They were able to determine that she lived with a man named RON done again on Byron Street, which was just a few blocks away from the club. So this was within another twenty four hours, so they were able to find out that address TED method. Detective there and they waited for the landlord to arrive again he's not knowing. If it's

others inside, if he's dead or alive info, he is dry heat kicking in air condition unit. You frantic and they're waiting for the landlord shop. The key the landlord said that the detectives go in first, they discover blood, they discover signs of a struggle in the deep like bedroom and they know they know that their that year there struggle struggle there at the duplex on Byron Street just walked away from the night club, where Gary was last seen with this dancer Erica Achei a mile a mile long and so her boyfriend from up police report from the club owners are boyfriend's name was modeled on again and they began to

look for both of them. A material witness warrant is issued for Laila, because she was the last person seen with Gary Cargin. At the same time, a couple of days later, Gary's car, the late model, Cadillac El Dorado, was reported in a parking lot in suburban New Orleans. So. Car had actually been there since Thursday morning, a few hours after the murder, but the owner of the business reported it several days later with no one came to claim it. The Baton, Rouge police, detectives traveled to New Orleans and brought the car back to the state police lab in Baton Rouge, where the trunk was open and there was a huge pool of coagulative blood, lots and lots of blood in the trunk of that car. An TED Kirgan was also there when they open the trunk of the car at the state police,

and he asked the question. I guess he's the son Danny asked the question: what does all this blood mean and what was the response from the police yeah when I spoke to TED about it? You know he he talked about. You is see that horrible fight, but you really don't know what it means you you you see it, but you don't and it it it person at stake with lab, told him that it met. Someone had died in the trunk of the car. It was that much blood. So after that horrible site can head was charged with going back home to the Lafayette area, to tell White Sea the their Son way good job as mother and as the Temple. That is how that Kerry with most likely debt and would not be yeah. He would not. They would not be here again and at that time, yeah Tepco life and already been turned upside down, but then, but now he is that this huge up point is like we're:

he's no longer the follower he's now. The family, patriarch and everyone had looked Gary to make all the decisions and now he's put in that place, and it was he said, the worst day of his life. You talk about that police believe that the the couple are heading to San Diego, but police get a call from LAS Vegas tell us what happens And how they, what happened and how they apprehend the two of them. Yay They had forwarded their mail salon. So too Fan Diego. That's why they assume they would find him there, however, because of the material with. War it. When my love, my love went to the Clark County Detention Center in LAS Vegas to apply for dancers, lightens up, it would flag. You know the flag that she was wanted in Baton Rouge Louisiana, so they called the batteries detective and

told them that they could only hold her for twenty four hours. Meanwhile, they also discover a very minor warrants outstanding warrant for Ronald done again an he stumbled into the Clark County detention center. Looking for her 'cause he's been waiting in the car and they hold him too. They arrest him now, as I said, they can only hold them both for twenty four hours, so that loose detective start scrambling because they don't know how they're going to get to LAS Vegas, and so they fast head. What he can do- and you know TED is thirty years old. He started the you know you successful businessman, but certainly not uber, rich or anything, but he remembers. He remembers, pulling out the yellow pages, seeing ad for Learjet and actually,

following the person who lives in new orleans- and you know talking to our and actually winning the Lear jet on its American Express card that would bring up both TED Ted and the two detectives to walk back up to question Lyle and RON. So they do get there in time to question but to them in LAS Vegas and at that time Leila give the first of several confessions, let's Abal Cible, but let's talk about what she says in that confession, because this is going to be important and live and she's going to live with those statements forever Leila said that she brought Gary back to the apartment they were. Ah, they were, you know heavy. She says that they had sex.

And that RON Dunn again actually killed him, and if they wanted more information, they would have to speak to run down again and that's basically what she said. The first time that she confessed. It was an accident, but that ran killed him. Now. What do police do with this first confession and you talk this first confession. She doesn't ask for a lawyer, so they speak to wear as long She feels like speaking with them when they talk to RON Dunn again what what is the result from that interview? He knowledge is that he knew Gary Kerrigan and that Gary Kirgan was indeed at their their duplex on Byron, St. Early hours of that morning and that it According to RON. He was looking for some kind of rough

Jackson that ran ran him off and that the last time he saw Gary Turgon, he was headed to New Orleans in his Cadillac, and that was once story at that time. In LAS Vegas. Now is there any ground as for search warrants and tell us about it. What's found that with the warrant at the apartment yeah, they do thirty a monk, be there were guns and ammunition, but also one of some of the most valuable thing they found. Well, I love all of the Iraqis. She had several diary. Some were about health and fitness that somewhere very quite, is in talked about a lot of details in the month they spent in Baton Rouge the month of November, one thousand nine hundred and eighty four that they when they move,

from New Orleans to Baton Rouge and what they did with their time there. It was very, very interesting they talked about, is seeing it with animals, and Gary's name comes up in the diary several times. She talks about him as a trick. She talks about him, giving her good money stopped she documents from her money in the diary and put them as chilling thing that she death says in the diary is hit Gary next time and she also refers to him in the diary as Sonic Gary. It was a real treasure trove it actually, those diaries were found in a drawer by Chad, Kroeger, who was in the apartment during the search in LAS Vegas well, along with the trees that seem to be incriminating and certainly very, very interesting and not

clearly known what they really mean they also are a portrait of this. I need you say obsessed with her looks, and so some other thing. In that diary to that point, to her character, Dante, yeah and and point to the fact that she was the dominant person in the couple are which was hard to believe, because here she was, she was nineteen years old, Bob Braun done again her boyfriend with thirty six. Yet she was the one her increased day, trying not to be too boxy. They they talk about it. I think that she wants to do it very very much, it's very obvious that she can control and all so she would try to say at some point that she was a slave to RON Dunn. Again she was able to go home to Ohio a couple of times, so it seemed pretty Evidon

from from reading the diary that she was the person in charge of the mastermind behind what went on and what happened to Kerry Kerrigan. What they also find very interesting inside this chest is a clown, costume and items. That would be used in magic tricks. So What do they did Herman from this, and a little bit of research, yes well Ronald done again actually made his living when he lived in New Orleans in the earth, in 1980s and before that in LAS Vegas as a costumed clown, he made balloon animals for children in Jackson, Square in New Orleans? You know he was a casino barker and in LAS Vegas so and he did magic tricks. He was very proud of his career. So to speak is a clown, so yeah ran down again

you know in other inside his personality, he was uh. He is a paranoid schizophrenic and he worked as a costume claim. So they made a very you talk about couple. Certainly you also talk about during questioning raw one said something very: s telling and also interesting, he's it to police. How do you know he just until leave town or run off. You don't

Of a body, do you yes, that statement? That statement became a key and trying to get a better look inside of run down again what because they could be taken on several different levels? You don't have a body, do you if he would see a smart criminal who realized he definitive Lee, Depart misspelled about body and that no one would find it. I would be seriously just trying to find out. Did you find the body? So it was. You know it part of this discovery, especially after the call k, with back to back on with trying to find out just one done again what and that statement was very chilling, because at the time one did not did he know he dispose of the body. Well enough that it wouldn't be found, I would be

Nearly asking the question: did you find the body right now? You also talk about that: the charger for first degree, murder and along with done again and then you go into what they find about Layla when she was born in upscale surroundings, and can't Ohio tell us how she made wait in New Orleans and a little about her life with the prominent doctor in housewife, mother, yeah sure Lila was the youngest of six children. Her. Father was a prominent Obgyn in Kent Ohio. She was a symphony violin, a track star Anna High school honor student

and then sometime during her senior year. She had about the issues an apparent carter off to an in house. We have built the any potential you should go to a halfway house in Cleveland. It's from the help we help increase She at and make their way down to New Orleans sometime, one thousand nine hundred and eighty three and she lives simply there with another man an after he moves away from New Orleans. She literally ended up on the doorstep of Ronald Dunnigan, and at that time he was, as I mentioned, worked as a clown, but also worked in a porn shop. In the New Orleans french quarter, and then she turned to dancing in prostitution and they are that's what she was doing in the french quarter. At the time. But, as I mentioned, she returned to KEN a couple of time to see family, I need to attend the wedding. So it was obviously that she was moving around free,

not under his control. But she did have had a Kerr would bring at this point two. She really She puts in her and she believes, and she tells people that one day she'll be famous model and actress or even a writer, and she really enjoyed. The stage you say is definitely a narcissistic person. T in in her diary very interesting. She talks about wanting to be loved by many. Women alike lie, and you know her fantasies as say of being a model and actress she was using baton. Rouge is a stepping stone to rob and murder and move on to California, where she thought she

would become a model and actress the writer. So she had this narcissistic magical way of thinking. That was, you know that propelled them to rob and murder to move on now back to the police response. In the first degree, murder charges. We alluded to that. There was a problem with not having a body so tell us what TED and what TED does too, because we have start talking about what group I, what plan, TED puts into play and also the group that is assembles to help him. So I mean TED spend much time looking he in list the help of wildlife and fisheries. There are planes, there are people in votes. He he.

Have one hundred thousand dollars reward out there for information he's hoping he does everything I mean they look for the body up and down the expressway By use it was an all out search along with the reward they took. They took calls for several months but were never able to uncover Gary's body. So the since there was nobody, there was a change in the garden, the district attorneys office along time, district attorney, who insisted he would cost

Kate was defeated. The new district attorney out came in and decided that there was there was nobody. He would not go forward with the prosecution, much the pad a magnet because everything he had been told that they would go forward with with the prosecution because of the other, the other evidence that they had. So it was a huge blow to TED in March of nineteen. Eighty five, when the d, a copper started to drop the case and they were released from that Rouge Parish prison what their separate ways. What you talk about, two is a very interesting thing. We didn't mention that in the search to the

find this mysterious map and tell us what the map of trays and what TED and his group tried to do with that map. The map was a very interesting piece of evidence. On one side, it depicted levy, with trees and notations of trash and in the middle. It's it's a notebook paper torn out with ragged edges in the middle of the page. There's is a big bullseye and on one side on the other side of the paper, there's a road there two lobbies and rd in a building. There is mention of a light gray. Cadillac there's mention that Swerve sign so it's a very detailed map in many people have tried to interpret the map and try to figure out where, in the Baton, Rouge locale,

between Baton, Rouge and New Orleans, where the car was found with this location might be can't find out, a group called checked, with search headed by Jim Miller. It's a group to search it, which searches for missing people missing and to see people and similar to the ceo locked, his own daughter who was murdered, and so he began this nonprofit similar actually came down. They use this map two thought it was because of the bill of similar buildings and the way the levees were drawn in and they actually conducted an all out dig for the body of Gary Kirgan

in in April well in actually in March of the following one of this, would have been after. Obviously, this would then, after the call, okay cool resurrection, but they actually did it all out gig for the body then, but that would again like magnet twenty thirteen, Appellee and bits of, although the body would not and covered it led to a lot of attention for the k in our happened right before allowable law was to be arraigned, so it was a it was. It was quite quite a spectacle and it also led to him Miller the friending Ronald done again, one of the markers at home other story, but yes, yeah the map. What you thought later on as a

is a place to look for Gary Cargons body. There was some very interesting things along the way when Gary wife, Suzie is called, and so he says he knows where to find Gary's body. So tell us a little bit about this and. And what had happened. You say the hundred thousand dollar reward that TED had offered had been taken had been withdrawn money. Before it was very interesting. This person was asking for money, tell us about what he said and what happened? Yes, is he called said this was for this summer, so a few months after the case had been had been dropped and she was very upset because a man had called her and said that he knew a lot about the case. He knew where to find Garys body and so TED called person who I'll call the confidential informant

This person said he had been in daily contact with Leila Marla during the year after the murders he was seeking that one hundred thousand dollars reward money which again had withdrawn info. He had consulted with police and they decided to set a trap for the informant, so they wreak would retake could record what he would tell shed and since the company is one form it had gone directly to TED. Instead of to the authorities that recording whatever he had said with forced the informant to go,

on the record, with his information had met the informant at a hotel room in suburban New Orleans, where next door police detectives were watching and recording everything. The confidential informant tell TED that Lyerla told him that she poisoned Kerry Kerrigan with painted wine and that RON been dismembered him and put the pieces in garbage bags and distributed them all around the area and had it yeah dont, because this is yeah. The best part about the the poisonous never met is new to him in the confidential informant actually leave the detective to a hotel across the street from where Kerry, Kerrigan our car was found yeah a few days after the murder at nine. Eleven to this hotel is one the places where the dumpsters were located in. This is incredible, this person and never even been to New Orleans. So he wasn't a crowd

he was afterwards had found out that this informant had definitely spent almost every day for months with Leila Baller, so very kredible person also Gary's car was found across the street from the landmark hotel. That's correct learning. A lot of credibility to this idea, yep in the dumpsters were dumpster, where he led them to was at the landmark hotel having never been there before his life. So it was, it was already very incredible yeah. Definitely now you talk about that where sorry you talk about where Leela spent most of nineteen, eighty five in Atlanta What was she doing and how is she faring well, a lot of look that year, in a in a mental hospital there, she herself told me that she was

Not doing well uh needed to to to regroup, and that was you know she did spend most of the year. There then returned to Kent Ohio and she resumed dancing a prostitution, but she would go on and marry become a mother and divorce. She obtained a nursing degree and worked as a nurse for years, so she went up after the year and the mental hospital she lived her life about the same things that she had done before, but the dancing of prostitution, the manipulation and there was a lot of that still going on in her life, but she. He her own way and lived a. Fairly normal life, he did a math book. You read during that time.

Proclaiming herself and it dipped planner and happiness Advocate and TED Cargin, was following along with all this, and he couldn't figure out for a long time. But then realize that the online presence that she was a man How many book mounting push down the and her name in connection with Kerry Krogans murder. There was a website called the Charley Project and it was on that website. So all of these blogs and mentions were served to push that further and further down when people search our nanny. Ronald down to get in the mean time stayed in North Louisiana and and sometime in LAS Vegas. He was pretty much in Thank White returned oppose your city and lived on disability. He sometimes lived in pay by the week; hotels, sometimes with family, even lived in homeless shelters. So this is the two with the two

we're doing in the ensuing twenty eight years after they were released from prison. And you say they had no contact with each other whatsoever. During that time they did not. They did not speak to one another. We are going to talk about Larry, Tucker and His daughter memory Tucker tell us just before we stop for a break about Larry Tucker relationship with Gary in the Begin because you talk about you have a story where Lairy sees a name on a card name. Erica and he says something is Gary early on. Tell us about that and tell us about the relation Larry. Tucker has with the curtains and tell us, a bit about memory Tucker and what

She is becoming an following in her father's footsteps. One of the first people that had called when Gary went missing is Larry Tucker. He was a business partner in their sonic agreement. He was also a very, very good friend of Gary Kurgans and he was also office out of their same apartment, office in Baton, Rouge and one night he came home. Larry came home to the apartment in Baton Rouge and found the piece of paper with Eric's name and phone number on it, and he confronted Gary about it and Gary said. Thank you. You probably save me from going out of my wife, and you know they had drinks that night Ann Larry Tucker went off. Is it sleep the next morning? He realized that the paper was gone from the waste basket and Gary had not the night there. So he's trying to put this puzzle together as TED calling him and saying Gary he's missing.

I don't know where he's been. I don't know what could have happened to him, and so this this is going through Larry Tucker's, mind after he talked to TED, who is Erica and, as we later found out, Erica is one of Lila Molor Stage names and she lured Gary to that club That night, because, as Gary in I mean TED Ann Larie, had both spoken to Gary, he said he was feeling sick and he was going home. So they were both surprised as they could be that he didn't do that, because he was thought he had. The flu even and instead was lured to the club, so Larry Tucker is a close friend was, was heavily involved. In for Gary, along with TED, when he was first missing an in keeping up with you know all of the events of the case and then as.

It was all going down. They lived in Northville Tuckers lived in North Mississippi. His daughter memory remembers her dad Larry Pacing pacing in the kitchen talking about the murder and and the you know where the body might be. She watched this from the staircase an in the back of her mind. This is what propelled her to a career in law enforcement and she became a sheriff deputy and later a victim advocate, uh. For the DA's office because hearing about Gary Perkins murder all of her life, but she was very, very surprised, call in twenty twelve.

Years after Kerry Cargo was murdered. An appellate detective asked her if she knew Larry Tucker and she says Larry Tucker is my dad. Yes, hello, Larry, Tucker and that's when they told her that they were looking at cold cases to re open batteries. Please have been given a grant to open a call k vision. They had a stack of cases. They were looking at in this case, the one they call sonic Gary. They were looking at and came upon all this information and the name Larry Tucker and Memory Tucker was done and she was a girl at the time. As I mentioned, she did not even know that Gary was murdered in Baton Rouge. She thought perhaps he was murdered closer to where they lived in the laffy at area and she became we became involved in the case trying to help put the pieces together. So that was the case. They selected to be open and go forward with.

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three dollars off your first order. If you visit dot com, slash true murder, that's blue apron! dot com, slash, true murder, blue apron, a better way to cook. Now we talked about memory, Tucker and TED Kirgan, Larry, Tucker's daughter, and then she becomes an and instigator has investigator role with the DA assistant Da Prem burns. So you talk about now this new initiative. This cold case division Ann talk about Hillary. More of the third, so tell us a

with this new initiative and how and what does TED do in this effort now that he sees that there is a real chance of prosecuting these two for murder. Well, as I mentioned, the Baton, Rouge Police was given a grant to open the cold case division. They began looking at it cold cases. Actually, they selected Gary Kirgan case. They called Sonic Gary his murder because they had blood evidence and Gary Kirgan had a son has a grown son and they were able to match the dna evidence. So they knew that the blood from the trunk of the car was Gary Cargons and they knew that because of the amount of the blood he was dead in the car. So this dna match was what got the case reopened. What made them choose the case and feel like they could one of the main things that made them go, follow

Said that dna match with with key show that you, you didn't actually get the call until a couple of months before they were going to be a wrap it to live a Mahler and run again because nobody wanted to get a house so until it was definite they were going forward with the K. Eight tablet done to get the call, even so he had kept up with the murders he knew where they were keep. He was still fun. So there is a plan in place. John Dozier, who headed up the cold case division, made a plan to rearrest Lila Marla and ran down again Archer question. I should say on the same day, in December of two thousand and twelve Lila Mall is now a nurse in Astoria. Queens debark ran down again, is still in Bowsher city, so

Detective Joe ca spend separate team to question both of them because they have no way of knowing whether there they've been in contact with each other or one could alert the other etc. So they send two different teams to question them. They call Lila Marla, who is that her job in them urgency room in the hospital and they tell her that they're coming to our apartment and they give her a chance to get there what's crazy about this whole thing is that TED Kirgan also knows that they're going to arrest them so he's here, two unbeknownst to the police detective. He is following them and as they are using Violin Marla in her apartment in Queens TED, Kirgan Tucker and her dad Larry are in a car outside and they're watching and they're waiting, Lila confesses again at her apartment.

She immediately when she gets a call that detective either from Baton Rouge. Of course, she she knows that she knows what's going on. She does why they're there so after she has a great confession to them at her apartment. They take her to the district attorney's office in Queens, where he gives the two and a half hour, Kate, compassion option that profilers had met with the detective before the assistant Da Dana coming through, with their from Baton Rouge, along with a story from New York. They had profilers had told them how to listen back in fashion and it works beautifully. She can pass both in our apartment and on tape from the DA's office RON done again, the rest. It was been questioned and rested and bowsher city, but he basically gave no information, but that same on

why you don't have a body, do you so and they were both then returned to Baton Rouge in MID December and charged with second degree. Murder TED was actually on the plane with Leila Marla, when she was brought back to Baton Rouge. He in this giant. Not yeah cat is a man of many disguises yeah. He was not going to let her out. He was actually there when they booked her and took her to Rikers Island. Before they brought her back to bed, we should watch to walk into wipers island. He was he was. There were determined that nothing was going to get by him to stop amazing man. You talk about another part of this team. Is the assistant Da Dana Cummings and she's a thirty year prosecute so and she's read, and for her dealing with

Serial killer, Derrick Todd so tell us what data Cummings brought to this and her relationship with TED and his group. Well, the data coming was fantastic during the all the proceedings, but she met with TED was very sympathetic to the story was determined to to get this case to prosecute the case and to anyway they with several? There were several things that had to happen for things to fall in place, chat and Dana believed all along. That Lila was the mastermind behind the murder, and so they would need to either prosecute Lila or have her testify against? RON Donegan. So there was, there were a lot of different directions that had to take place.

She Lila Molor first pleaded not guilty so and would not accept the plea deal, so they were going to prosecute her Dana, along with TED, made an extraordinary decision two when Violet refused a plea, deal and pled not guilty. That was in April, two thousand and thirteen TED in Dana agreed to let RON go at that time and pretermit, which means to take no action at that time with him, which meant that they could later a rectum, but they Actually, let him go and decided that to Shoul, I love that they would prosecute her. That was a very small that, but yes interesting. You also talk about that.

This in this new confession, because it seems that everything she said that had an evolution, so you say TED thanks back to that. You know that confidential informant and what he had said That Lila had said so, which is why I was saying now nearly interesting when TED thinks back about the about her, poisoning well the poisoning. She now gives details to say about the poisoning, and then she elaborates that under questioning that she did know at first, it was a story did she didn't know, and then she did know so how you talk during the trial or our during her well

No, I don't. This is a confession. Justice confession at this time that that Dana Cummings gets from her up yeah. Yes, she did. He tell the story that she bob the Sheep Cordon Kerry, that he struggled and fell to the ground and that RON, mother him and to come in the bathroom and dismember him and that she had nothing to do with it, add in the adjacent room for hours and was a party to none of it that one later parts of the body in a star bag and put them in the trunk of the car, and then she later he told her to get in the car. This was no at the basic tenet of a back in fashion. Now you talk about in in this.

Always TED, is looking for Gary's body and get head is looking for information and a way to find out the location of that body of his brother, I talk about your friend and Edelman and tell us what again What her, what her role was in this group, executive here in Baton Rouge, and she worked with TED Target on a number of projects through the years and when the case was reopened, she volunteered to handle media, which she thought would be something that would last a few days. Instead, she she ended up becoming inside an insider in the case, heavily involved in the cave TED brought her boxes and the of research that he had done through the years from the first case and in in in the intervening years she

He helped the catalog over nine hundred digitize documents that they used for different things, helps coordinate private the Gators to talk to family members and health. Timeline an impossible scenarios. So she would, have we have. We have Bob, but probably one of our most important role was befriending Ronald on it, which she did after he was. As I mentioned, he was let go as the preacher met and was brought out, went back home to North Louisiana, similar objectives act with their kids. I alluded to earlier, what's here in Baton Rouge, for that dig, looking for Kerry Kerrigan and you.

Date on and all that the printed want done again and TIM Miller is an extraordinary man and if I'm right, very outspoken and a little bit rough it, he tried his best to get wild on to get to get back where he buried or are left, Kerry. Kerrigan remains and he worked really really hard on it. So much that that they were saying they were staying West Baton Rouge across the Mississippi River and RON took him Miller to a site where you might get shot gun and that evening RON attempted suicide in it said tell them yeah, so Aaron Brown is taken to the hospital where he had met

two, a mental ward and and went in to visit him in the mental ward. Under the guise of bringing him a new cell phone from TIM Miller and from that point on. She becomes his contact because he has no one he's in the hospital by himself and she actually be friends him. An is is, with him, travel with you, eat dinner with him here in Baton, Rouge traveled even travels to Bowser City once he goes back to Bowser City a month or so later, mother. She later Anne

visit him there with ten Kerr again at their show part in so she has quite ordinary role in this whole thing, because she is able to find out for model done again. Think about the time of the murder about you know in in pretty much everything that one done again told her was substantiated odd, that he that he liked Jerry Carrigan, that he was a nice person and- and so it was just a really extraordinary insight into the person he was not. He was saying a person who was not.

She was not. Probably, he was illiterate, but he was street smart and he had a lot of moxie. So anyway was extraordinary insight into the person who was bond done again, so an played an extremely important role in in finding out more about him. They're, not this is not a slam dunk it all. This is planned for April two thousand, Thirteen and of course they plead not guilty, and you talk up, An attorney or a whole not filing motions again delaying this, and you say that TED. You know was looking at Lila, seeing what she looked at at forty eight years of age and she hadn't aged so well. But there was is an issue of Alleged warrantless, search and seizure, and if granted it men the journals the diaries wouldn't be admissible. So

do they do as a result? What does TED personally do and how do they deal with this grave situation?. Well, they were, they were unable to find the original document in LAS Vegas, but he cheese or, friend of a friend, gets in touch with a very powerful attorney in LAS Vegas, and they make it happen. They uncovered document the original search warrant documents so that they are able to admit those diaries in evidence. It was again all through this period. There are just incredible coincidences in force force of will that make things proceed, beak. As you say that it certainly wasn't, is clamped up. There were many times when things could have gone awry, but yet they were able to find the original Doc document and the the diaries were admitted into evidence.

You also so there's another twist in this as well is that September? Fourth, two thousand and fourteen grand jury decides to indict done again, but then Lila has a change of changes. Her mind tell us what she changes her mind about him. How this offers up a predicament for prosecutors the morning of the grand jury, an adult men and kept her again go to the courthouse and are met by Dana coming. Let them know that finger our ride. Apparently, Lila Bella follow, follow, filed, Postfix conviction, relief papers against her counsel. And she had decided she was not going to testify against one done again and things were kind of up in the

there were several hours until finally, Dana coming convinced her to testify by saying that she would charge Lila with first degree, murder and use those dire, read and heard regional convention against her. But you know again, it would you know it was several hours of of hand, wringing and worrying wondering if indeed she would continue to agree to testify it, which she did and then Ronald done again was indicted by the grand jury. That day, Ann up police went to arrest him the next day in Bowser City. Where am I Settlement in tech argon were also on hand to watch it be arrested at the Ramada Inn there in Bowsher city.

Absolutely every step of the way he wants to make sure that his work in his efforts have come to fruition, Disney no sound on turn the surprise it was used over and over again Now you have all this cast of heroic people at This trial, finally You have a check of how, although he's interesting suffering from cancer and in prison, but his partner, ARI Thompson is one of the people that the in crucial people the trial under day three, you say the star witness here: Lila enters the what room and they hadn't seen each other for thirty one years, and you talk about her being real small and her legs shackled. Fifty years old tell us what Gary the as you describe in in the book. What TED fell and Gary son. Is there all these other p over there? What

the scene, like, as you describe in the book for TED, to lay eyes in on Lila and run down again well run down again, I was sitting right behind run done again and sh. The wily entered the court room almost right in front of him. It had to walk past him and, as you said, she's very. Tiny when I spoke to her in prison, I had to do a double take when she came out even on had seen her in the core and she's very, very tiny. She was dressed in all our drab prison and had a leg, as you mentioned, had our legs shackled and she was looking very frail-

Her testimony was very dramatic. She kept stopping and starting and tearing up and needing to you know catch her breath and she was very, she acted very, very scared of Ronald done again. She acted very, very timid and just scared in general, and she the same basic, cancel the story. She told in her last three to four infections that shape that she poisoned Gary Kergan with tainted wine, that you fell to the floor, that Ronald Dunnigan

ktm that, while down again to Kim and dismembered him could end in garbage bags and then distributed does in various places, and she you know had knew nothing of where or how it happened, or where is that the bags were were even though she was. She said she was in the car with him as they drive to New Orleans that night. Now you talk about that. The information that she provides in the direct examination and then in the more treacherous examination she fares pretty well and stays fairly stable and answers. The questions effectively. Ted was happy with their Dana was Cummings was quite happy with her performance. On the stand, tell us what you talk about the

the closing arguments and what they, what that evidence provided for. So what does the? Ba do with that testimony again we talked about how it She thought it was tell us more about What happens after that at the trial? Well, several things, the fact that they had not only they have Leila's testimony without law was testimony. They had the blood evidence. Then they had the diary that determines up premeditation. So all those things together help the conductor. The jury took less than an hour, a unanimous unanimous, I'm sorry can be done again. The jury took less than an hour unanimously done and he was sentenced to life without parole and she

agreed to a thirty year sentence effectively both of these killers. I would spend the rest of their life in prison, correct yeah. Then we were very surprised that she sits the thirty year plea deal. Chad Kroeger was very insistent along with they have coming. That we deal be that long, that's in, Be that long and we you know very frankly, wondered why she took such a long sleeve. So instead of rolling the dice and going to trial that perhaps there were other things either and the commission of that crime, or maybe other crime but she maybe didn't want to come out. But it was extraordinary that she did it that thirty years in prison. Yes in the diaries were, I thought we were more than affected because they they ca, pointed to them to say, listen when you get in there to deliberations, you're going to read these, what her words are and she quoted from those hit Gary next time. So some

really chilling passages now what's interesting to me that you talk about. It's not really a celebration, but the relief that TED has in All this effort and his group's effort and everybody involved that wanted to see this outcome fine only after thirty one years and and Lila on the Lamb and having a new life for so many years. But TED doesn't stop there. So you talk about who he hires a Jennifer due in tell us what pet is looking for. Now, well, even during even before the trial. As I mentioned, Lyle's testimony was fairly consistent, but it was, it was probably there will probably a lot of falsehoods in there. His criminologists.

Because of the a b being a hold on the wall which were very high up in the ceiling. They determine that Gary was fighting for his life, standing up, not on the floor, being poisoned and falling to the floor. So the struggle that went on in the bedroom that night was most likely not as she described. Instead, it was probably a vicious battle. They Kerry Kerrigan fought for his life, not just to come to you four point to point you wanted, so that was one of the things that, because the criminologist uncovered that, if he was probably standing and fighting

Not front you also talk about the CHI debunk, the idea of dismemberment and based on what well several things the the cars being better. Even they have very low. Thank you clean up, but they have very little time to do so and the photos of the bathroom spotless not only that they will there is very little evidence that it could have been done in the bathroom. It was the timing the time king of yeah the murder happening. Two hundred and thirty three o'clock in the morning, the fact They would dismember him and then get to New Orleans and return to this duplex by seven hundred am it doesn't. The experts agree that there wouldn't be time

this to happen, it would to end that there would be an awful lot of blood and there was just not evidence of that much blood. You also talk about that. They concluded that when the story was that there was six bags that uh Going to concluded that there was no more than one garbage bag in that trunk, not yet from the pattern she could tell from the she said that there would be the patterns that bag make when they dragged over. She said that you would see that Adam from the dip bags, and there was no evidence that there was more than one. It just happened right and she also contemplated that and wondered there was no fingerprints and or hair samples found. So where is waited where they wearing gloves and hats.

And yes a lot it, and what about the he was very in that they were in that state, probably white the car clean, because that was one of the things that have Gerry Curtain Cadillac had none of their hair or fingerprint samples, and that was that was one of the things that one Reason why they will release, is they couldn't hold them, but there was no none of that type of evidence at that time. In nineteen eighty five she also talked about. And question why they would use a map at all. Why would they need a map or, and so there was some talk of them being possible serial killers, and you also talk about. There was blood on the ceiling. But it wasn't Lyle's DNA. Yeah going back to me, no

and also when you go back to the beginning, when they found at the Byron apartment they found other peoples identification, didn't they. They actually found that in LAS Vegas among their things, there were social security cards and drivers license for for other other people. But the ceiling tile that would still held in evidence by Baton Rouge police that had the blood on it. The blood was tested. Not it was a female, so Yes, there was blood on the ceiling in the Byron St Department that belong to a female so and it was which was not Leila Marla, so very curious. Indeed. Yes, what were there more victims again? She took a thirty year plea deal, so was she hiding something I don't know but very did TED or anyone else from the group try to contact Leila after that.

To get anymore information once she was incarcerated? I spoke to Leila a couple of times after she was incarcerated and see it says says she doesn't know. Where maintains that she doesn't know where Gary carpets body is. She did say that it was dumpsters as far as he could remember, and she did provide that she remembered it was a Bfi dumpster yeah. You know her her stories about the dumpsters kind of. Mary. Didn't she never really, She never really would consistent, and she really didn't give consistent information about the dumpsters, and she said she really didn't know, but she did mention be at by she mentioned a color. I think it was perfectly wear purple, but it was not not very consistent. Can reports of the Utah.

You talk about run down against behavior when Lila is testifying against him after thirty one years and not seeing her that must've been interesting to observe yeah, it won't receive it violently shaking his head in, you know, put tapping, and he was very much in disagreement with what she was saying. However, there's some thought that maybe the way was happy to see her again and senior in thirty years and uh. She was the great love of his life, so even under those circumstances, perhaps he was happy to see her. Well in in the LYLAS testimony, it seemed that people believed It seemed that she got credit for being removed. Marshall, an actual,

the sorry about this, this event ever happened. Why did you think of her testimony in regards to that remorse fullness? I I thought her whole performance is a set. In the book could have won an academy award, I'm not sure how much truth there was to it. I'm not sure that she be at all? So I'm not really sure. I think she said what she needed to say and what she was. You know she knew she needed to say. I'm not. I don't believe she was remorse full. Now you talk about the relationship that TED maintained with his nephew, weighed and weighed, was at the trial as well and was approached by journalists, and

You spoke to wait. I believe so tell us a little bit about what it seemed to be. The effects after all these years and and how he was faring from at all? Oh wait: is it very quiet, taco man? He obviously has a great deal of love and respect for his uncle TED. He was so very imo. Optional after the verdict- and you know it's- it's been a real. I think it's been really really transformative form the whole verdict and being able to put this behind him. Is is a very, very thoughtful man in again Cape, so much credit The chat and they're very, very close. That's great we also talk about a few days after this trial verdict. Just too again little bit of icing on the cake of for TED,

bit anyway something he was honored with the Hall of Fame involving the sonic franchises is a little bit about this and seem like because the photo you provided it was an important day for him, absolutely was amazing timing. The trial should have been in the summer. It was postponed until September of twenty fifteen and, as it turned out, TED left up the trial and travel to Kansas City where he did receive the Troy Smith Lifetime Achievement Award at the Sonic National Convention, so it was was asked many times its verdict. The trials of all of these process or surreal, and he said no, they were very real, but indeed one after his speech at the comic convention. All he walked up this date in was hi. Five by number

the band earth, wind and fire who, with the evening time it gets that that was the real. So it was really. As you say, I a real you know almost in intent, business is still called Gergen brothers, so you you know all along. It was as if Kerry was continuing to play a role and I'm sure at the convention. Yes, very much felt Kerry with yeah in the end of the book to you talk about all the people that were instrumental new, usually there's acknowledgement, but not and so much it knowledge of the players that you just wrote about. So maybe you tell us about all the people, and Loading, TED and memory. Tucker They were instrumental in this in your opinion, in getting this again

kredible journey and mission to have these killers face justice. Well, certainly beginning with TED and Edelman played a just a really crucial role. In in working through all of these time lines and developing you know the k memory talker or as as her role in working with the Assista but this is the district attorney's office and the bat which police and and getting that helping get it. The coke craze re open, as I mentioned John, does yeah, who made the decision to reopen the case as the head of Baton Rouge called. Price division so there, and there were other detectives, Chuck Smith and Jim, feel investigators with DA's office. They work closely with TED. In fact, Chuck says that He had never seen anyone like TED gathering information processes. It processes and active

with almost military like this vision, but Chuck and Jim were very important. Hill are more what the district attorney was. The original crime scene investigator at Byron, ST in nineteen. Four, so he had it might happen at best in in in this case- and that was an incredible coincidence- they were private investigators, Scott Johnson, George time. All we spent a lot of times I family and friends, and people who knew both while a mall and RON done again during the intervening years have white. Encouraging was an extraordinary person head was able to keep his jeep and and the son out of the loop on everything that would going on, so that their home life and their house is a safe haven. At all time and and an incredibly strong and supportive person- and I really enjoyed getting to know her curtain brothers, executives, Doris Reiners and JANET Johnson's, both of whom worked in Cary Kirgan, thirty plus you

to go on. They were there every step of the way. I'm I was able to talk to them again terrific insight into what it was like thirty years ago and throughout their time with the organization, so that was was really was really great and also need, TIM Miller of taxes, echo search just chucked, an incredible man. There were other people who ted and lifted to help. Look before his brother. There were my cancel and Julie, Starbuck apiece, river canine, as you mentioned Jennifer June. And there was even of the prop property owner in it. With a pair. She was like a color commentator history about the area and was Don wrist drop, so I mean they were just so many people who once they heard yet of the story of the murder and had remarkable journey. They just became an messed with the whole thing, so it was. It was just an incredible experience.

And I also want to say this is an incredible book and publishers, Wildblue Press and I have a lot of authors from wild blue press. It's a great publishing house, and also I wanted to mention that I was interested to see that the book is edited by Anthony Flacco. Very interesting, Anthony was very, very helpful, make them extraordinary additions and helped me with the editing really really enjoyed working with him. He was a great great editor Absolutely great author, great author- and it was a great guest we I have to let you go, but before we do, maybe we can talk a little bit about the newsletter that you have and if you have a facebook page for this book or where people might look for other work, be able to contact. You tell us a little bit about that.

Sure I have a website. Mb K's in my brother's keeper, Mvk books, dot com and You can find out to have a blog baron, lots of photos and a whole lot in nation on that page. You can contact me through that as well and, of course, the books available through the web page, but also on Amazon, ended that we do have a my brother's keeper book fate. Page love for you to friendly there, and I keep putting out more information. Ted continues to start can end up. Hopefully, one day there the idea. Further resolution forensics today, forensics or amazing, so will continue to follow the story. Well, yes, there's probably more to this story. Obviously I want to Thank you very much, Chris Russo Blackwood for coming on to talk about my brothers, keeper, a thirty year quest bring two killers to justice. It's been fantastic. Thank you. Very much you have a

great evening. Thank you enjoy the day. Thank you. Goodnight. Good night hi. It's Jamie progresses, employee of the month to month in a row, leave a message at the paging me. It's me Jamie do not forget to buy lentils what lentil soup you're making for dinner will be sorely lacking by the way. Mrs Callaway says thanks for helping her bundle home and auto. She appreciates the exercise, a means, even though you kept using the word after opposing correctly, but the main thing is do not forget to buy. Was it something I propose lentil soup.

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