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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about them: DC, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer, true crime, history through murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. This episode of two murder is brought to you by Harry's dot com. Have you ever thought how great it would be to never have to go to the drug store ever again for expensive, razor, blades and shaving cream Harry.

These delivers a superior shave. An shipping is always absolutely free. Their starter kit is just fifteen dollars which includes razor three blades in your choice of Harry Shave, cream or foaming gel right. Now you can get a further five dollars off your first purchased by using the code true murder? That's one word: go to Harry's dot com and enter coupon code; true murder and start shaving smarter. Today. The true story of the world's premier forensic unit, recreates, the genesis of micro search, international as a small eclectic group of scientists and law enforcement who volunteered their services to help locate the clandestine graves of murder, victims and recover the remains and evidence to assist with the apprehension

and conviction of the killers known early on as the pig people because of their experiments and Lok getting graves using the carcasses of pigs, because Are there similarities to human bodies? Necro? Sir has evolved and expanded into one of the most respected forensic investigation teams in the World New York times best selling author, Steve Jackson, the author of bogeyman and monster vividly tell the story of this incredible group and we recount some of their most memorable early cases that taken separately, would make great true crime books, follow. His participated participation in a neck research expedition to Russia. Looking for the means of a russian noble in two thousand and thirteen Jackson was made in on,

I remember, of necro search international? In November, two thousand and fourteen the book that we're profiling this evening is no stone unturned with my special guest Steve, Jackson, journalist and author and publisher, Steve Jackson and I just spoke to Steve a minute ago and he was connected via his cell phone and had difficulties connecting via Skype. Don't even apologize will call back in regardless. So we'll have this sorted out in a minute. This is a a book that was originally released in two thousand and two, and it has been released this year in two thousand and fifteen this spring, with updates on all of the cases that were include. In this book from Necro search, international and so

interesting and fascinating updates have included this book really talks about some of the groundbreaking forensic investigation tools. Outline in this neck research international that now I guess I've been creeping into into common, fictional and and also a little bit into stuff, like investigation discovery documentaries where some of this stuff, some of the things he pioneered way back when at the turn of the century have now become commonplace? Here we are with Steve Jackson. Welcome to the program, Steve Jackson, some of the things I can. I can hear you on Skype, but I can't be heard apparently, so I will have to go with it. This way. Okay,

a well we'll we'll do that, then you sound fine. Your signal sounds great. I just did this synopsis explaining just giving a brief outline of neck research international. I tell us how it came to be that you had the opportunity to write about neck research. International back in I mentioned that this book it originally came out. Two thousand two so tell us about how you can came to be involved with this group and to write this book no stone unturned, why I am originally ran into neck research international. When I was working on the book monster neck research, was involved in finding a murder, victim the the main victim. If you will, with from that story in monster which is Cher elder, she been bad read in the the mountains above didn't air Colorado in a clandestine grave by her killer, Thomas Luther and

and uh. It was missing for about five years and a detective. Who was the main detective in that story, contacted heard about neck research, didn't think much of them at first. I thought these were a nice group of volunteers, and you know, but he give it give it a try, because he hadn't been able to find shooters body up to that point. So he contacted them and they went from there and they locate is the body and exhume the body and the evidence that was around it, which was very important to the the trial in the case. So that's kind of I got started as I heard about him working to another book.

Now. What I mentioned to the audience was that some of these things that happen that some of the groundbreaking forensic investigative tools that they came upon came about as a a group was slowly formed from other science. Tific disciplines and including anthropology botany at Myologie, serology GEO physics, chemistry and psychology, among other things, and so tell us about the origins of the pig people in some of the first group members that identified that there was some and why the group was formed. Well it it's it's concerned about you describing, and it was slowly came together from almost sort of a This is at about the same time now some of the people in

bald were were in the forensic Sciences such as pathologists and forensic the anthropologists and, and so They were used to their disciplines being applied to this, but Still they were, it actually mostly starts on. There was a place called Mccormick Ranch. South of Denver and um rumor had it that the ranch you're down there, the this Mccormick and his son are these homeless men kept disappearing, going down there and working and disappearing and and some members of this group just Who happened to H here to allow for Sherlock Holmes and the hardy boys and all that sort of thing where we're watching television and the and the police had. These long goes there's out on this property and we're just sort of tearing back and forth across the property, and they were thinking

boy. They even if they find the remains of somebody they're just going to have disturbed the evidence so much that lock could be lost, plus the you know it's just sort of haphazard in about same time? There was a geophysicist, who was watching a different television show when it had, these police officers were out doing the same with a backhoe. Looking for a body that was supposedly stuck in a fifty gal and Rahman buried somewhere, and he was thinking well. Gee you know I, I locate a ferrous materials using some of mine, my equipment, all the time. I that I could find a drum. So he kind of went out to the field and told him what he the other day give him a chance to do it and they they didn't find the drum that day, but they they found car parts and buried

other material so that the police and saw the benefit of it and said well, it was a drum out there. He would have found it and it just start you know kind of these, these spray, listen to other friends who contact did each other and you know started meeting at DEN is for breakfast and think it trying to think of better ways to locate clandestine graves apply all these different sciences, sort of as a many headed Sherlock Holmes is what they eventually kind of thought of themselves that it's interesting too. They all seem to have, or a lot of these members seem to have that

Sherlock Holmes Bug where they had. It captivated their magic nations when they were young and even though they wanted to separate fields. They still have that common love of Sherlock Holmes and and solving a mystery Clive Clark Davenport had something because if I mispronounce is put up a magnet, Mick Magnette. Magnet magnometers there we go. Thank you. Thank you very much so anyway. So I can you put out in time for me so the magna ometer and- something yes, yeah,

no it it it's magnetometer. This magnetometer was it's for for our audience. If we could explain this, is that that what he realizes that, using of what they were trying to do these police they couldn't, it wasn't going to go deep enough. It's not going to detect anything deep enough in the soil, so we thought that what it would be is that there is magnetic fields of the particularly particularly particles. Part me in the soil and they'll take on the orientation of the earth's field, and when that soil is removed and replaced as very much in the digging of a grave. They would note those changes in the orientation of those particles right Yes, that's the that's the that's exactly the way. It is that I think everybody has pretty much heard. The other has a electronic fields in that circle. It's in the they tend to go in a certain direction north to south and

I'm in and things there in the ground take on the same electrical field. So you dig into that and see you start throwing it around you throw it back in it's going to be different than what it is. It's called an anomaly, and it doesn't this, isn't it does not king beneath the ground and seeing the skeleton it is looking to get the ground and finding an anomaly that is of a certain size and depth and and it's just one but many tools that one when you're talking Magnetometer can look a little bit deeper, but they also have ground penetrating trading radar, which can essentially help them. Look beneath things like cement, pads, but bouncing radar beams beneath the ground, and it does the same sort of thing that when you've disturbed ground it, it has a different the

so you're going over so you're you're driving at over a cement pad that so over some ground. An most of the ground, is of a certain density and or feel electronic field and suddenly it changes, and this changes six feet long by you know tune. Feet across and and you're looking something along those lines. It's it gives you an an anomaly and sometimes there's several anomalies, and they have to check them all out. Eighty eight used here some of his experience in Vietnam, using GPR to sending electromatic magnetic waves beneath the surface, and so he'd use this to find out, tunnels, were dug by the Viet Cong in in Vietnam. In the end, in some of the other materials that some of the other equipment for locating minds, use the combat engineer so yes there,

look for the tunnels of the Viet Cong or other berry buried, weapons, varied materials or minds. Even clear roads and that sort of thing metal did Actors can do that, but if it's very deeper say cash, of arms. They could look for those two now, as we mentioned, This was a slow progression of accumulating members, but also learning as they made mistakes and so Davenport worked with officers, but they still, they learned quite a bit from some of the mistakes that they made. So tell us a little bit about how they It go about that in terms of recognizing that there is certainly we're going to make some mistakes, but would be a good learning tool for them. Well,

in understanding the nature of the scientist or a you know. A Sciences is the Don't really look at things in terms of a success or failure quite the way we do you know, learning something is a success to them. So if go over. Certain piece of glass Now, then they get all excited because they thought there was a grave there and then they find out well. It was by maybe some water running beneath the degree or that not everything that looks like the grave is a grave. You know they can. You know the don't really see that as a as a mistake, so much as if this is something we've learned from so next time we come back at this will will learn and said. Take even the case of share, elder they'd actually located the grave earlier. At a time,

and they ended up excavating it, but they did so the winter when the cracks in the soil and might- and in this case they are using some cadaver dogs. The system with some of the other means that there looking for the was looking beneath the ground, the dogs didn't pick it up, and so they ruled something else yeah, they learn little things about. You know the time the wind to go out and where to look and income, getting some of these, these things that you know the psychologists know about killers that killers don't like to go up hill with the body. Even though shareholders killer did go up hill with the body, so they also learn

that you can't always believe. You know what the experts supposedly no now the first case that you point out as the janitor in a drum as it's affectionately called by these police officers the sort of bizarre sense of humor doing this kind of work for a living so tell us what they have a suspect they have. A couple bought is that they're looking for an all they have is couple witnesses say they witnessed the murder. So then Davenport Ann is is bright. In so tell us a little bit about how that case develops well his his brought in this is this- is the one is he's watching? The television green and and he's been doing this and says. Well, you know I I I think I can do better is that it actually sort of a humorous story. If you new car keys, he's he's these typical science

and doesn't really understand what how somebody else might be thinking, so he kind of wandered in there is that they're here you guys are looking for. You know such and such a murder victims, and certainly at all of their attention, and he said specially says? I think I can help you find them so you know. I will suddenly he's he's part of this investigation when all he means is that he's willing to go out is this area in search for a drum now that case in that particular? time and that was so it is always. I believe that one yeah, quite eighties on right was not you know they didn't find anything at the time, but I can't say that that case is very active again now and they're they're working on. So you know that there's that yeah yeah. You know, there's no statute of limitations on murder and these

people. They can be real bulldogs when it comes to not giving up on something and willing to go back, and do it again. So the so this janitor in a drum case may yet be solved. Now the you introduced along the way you introduced as the members are joined the group an with their own scientifiques discipline and also the police that that end up cooperating with these people that are outside law enforcement itself and tell this is about. You know their initial reluctance to work with some of these people. Now that was humorous as well, well, you know that it in a you, have a murder in you know the the investigating officer- and you know, you're gonna get a bunch of calls from psychics who you know. Lou have a few

feeling about where somebody is or how have a dream or or somebody thinks they saw something and and or somebody believes they know, which way a killer, would go and in these sorts of things, most of it is well meaning. You know you have people who would like to help police officers solve crimes. Then find find the victims. So when you, we had this group of scientists who say I'm a botanist and she's a natural list and he's a geo does a cyst and none of us are connected to law enforcement anyway, and they they call you up, or or actually they don't call call a lot. They they get contact. Eventually, they have let let themselves known that they have this. These abilities that I think it would like to try him out and so the police a lot of time. And would come to on thinking how boy you know I've been looking for this person for five years and I've heard about this group

probably another volunteer group that will give you the shirt off their back, but you know what kind of hocus focus. Are they gonna pull? Are they gonna pull out some divining rods and find bodies that way? And it is not until you actually in this answer I looked over many years to where now when they come then the FBI or police officers- and I go to a number of these meetings- I'm Am M your nipple now not just an honorary member. But, you know the the respect is there because they come to these meetings and suddenly they're being asked What time of day was this? What was the lighting like? What was the weather like what? What is the date? They were buried in a in a car or no drawn? What was the tears material made out of you know witnesses have said, and and a number of these questionnaires that the police leave

What I I better go back to the drawing board and and learn more about my own dick I'm in my own case and come back to these people, but it's sort of a come to these meetings, especially early on with a uh a reluctance, and then maybe you know looking at him, something like do and and then leaving with a great deal of respect now. Some of these original members again have to work on cases or their ass to do cases, and they want to do cases, and so you talk about again the case. It would probably raise their profile and their credibility everywhere and again, an important infamous killer, TED Bundy. So tell us what exact information?

that the authorities were going on concerning a particular victim, an what they were asked to do on behalf of the authorities that authorities couldn't do it on there, well after Bundy was arrested down in Florida down. In Florida and facing all the eventually facing the death penalty, of course he He confessed to a number of different victims and killings and you know some of this was probably to get attention from the police, and you know you get a enormous do and any also like the time people, but one that it come out. Was a young woman in Vail Colorado on the ski areas here, Julie, Cunningham. Was disappeared, one thing at it. Kind of after after ski ski evening and and undies

about a young woman in Vail that he didn't met. He had sort of the had a fake cast on his leg and probably along on crutches, with a ski boots and kind spotted her and asked her to help him get who is car and you know, get a ski boots in there and all that sort of thing and when he got are there e? He knocked her out and he drove her W toward grand in Colorado, which is one main interstates and city guide, out near a town, small town near Rifle, Colorado and I took Julie have a little side road that had a you know. He used to scribe in the area. He there weren't really any signs, and I he raped her and killed her there and left her body there, and he told the police in Florida about this, and this got back to

to Colorado and the police, and they all said. Yes, we do have a victim like that Julie, Cunningham, who did period one evening and has never been heard from again same time same approximate date and so this is one of the early early neck research times when contacted by the police? With that, can you come out and help us, so that's how they got involved in that case,. Very interesting that some of the early members that came into the phone Old were a one Nelson who the bloodhound expert and he also had a couple of members, a Hadley and Grady. They looked at things like the best time again. The guy had war experience of the best time to look at Clint, this nine graves, so they it figured out the best time to look at the photos and they also were using thermal imaging

using infrared cameras because they realize that decomposing bodies gave off heat. Some incredible innovations here Right and and and that's that's, what's really incredible- neck research is that there so they don't really have you know? Well, all human beings have egos, and you know that comes into it, but they the generally just very interested people, and so somebody come to him and say: hey. I heard about you guys and have you ever thought about thermal imaging that a decomposing body, and some of this goes back to the the pig sites that you missed. At the very beginning where they were burying pigs and out in this a large acreage and studying both. You know how plants change when body Deacon close, is there or when the soil is disturbed. They they study the scavenging. What do bears and

not raccoons, do him, but they also do Things like a fly over the area with thermal imaging and see the change the ground temperature as a body in this case pigs decompose that they can use it on other cases in that so many three will last for a long time and for both the da odds or or disturbances in plant growth out of an area that's been dug up. These can. Be years before they disappear. So that's that's part of putting all this together and then rather than a just a geophysicist going out and and look ground, penetrating radar they'll have a botanist go out and check the plant why

in a certain area to help narrow it down and the geophysicist and come in with his equipment or or the bloodhound handler can bring the dog in, and they all just worked together at the team. Tell us about necro search international as it finally got enough members that they could overlap all these disciplines and really be taken seriously By law enforcement agency, and then they would be assigned to do something on their behalf, so tell us about their very first major challenge and success. As a group. Well there there. You know they for quite a long time. They would they go out and it had their make their efforts and then at One point: there acted by Detective Sheriff's office. Investigator out of Gunnison Co

I got a young woman who had disappeared in Gunnison back in nineteen. Seventy six and named Michelle, Wallace and assume your listeners are probably familiar as this is dinner. Case it's been on HBO and unsolved, mysteries and and forensic files, and in many of these, but Show Wallace had with the young woman photographer in the area win back packing and one day and came down the road to return to Gunnison From the area around Crested Butte in class, two men who are whose car is broken down, so she stopped and gave him a lift, and one of these men was named Roy Melanson, who had recently escape or not escape, but then let go on a rape charge in Texas on on a technicality. What she also didn't know is, then we only found out

a few years ago is that he is fifty days move from having murdered a woman out in Sonoma CA hey Michelle picks, picks them up and drops one of the men offered the bar. He was- he didn't know this guy. He was with Roy very well will strange that he said he you know at turn the Roy the show for a ride, and and they left and Michelle disappeared. There's this little one non soon became a suspect, but for me and there's a huge man hunt for her in Gunnison for quite a long time, and but she disappeared, Melanson, like I said, became a suspect. He had a camera that he heart. He said he stole it from her and so things like this but denied killing her saying that he he let her

off, and then he stole her car and her equipment and all that sort of thing. So this went on for for many years and then the yeah. The young happened to be going through the Gunnison Sheriff's office, cold case files and came across a box, and in this box was a. You, some braids head hairs to the the entire scalp and braids of a one things that have been found on a road in the Gunnison area- and there was two did it could have been Michelle, but even a search in that area and turn up anything. And then, of course, they wanted to make a case against balance and they thought they had

quite a bit against him, but the the prosecutors don't like prosecuting cases in which there's nobody and no proof of death, even though Michelle disappeared and very sad story, her mom couldn't take it and about two weeks into the search killed Self esteem saying bury me next to my body when my daughter, when you find her and so this lingering sad story, continued on and then Kathy was to figure out well. How do I find this body? I need this body to go forward with prosecution and she heard about neck research, so she invited Landay. She actually sent the braids to neck research in their botanist. Looked at, some of the fur leave Then pine leaves and things like that that would have been caught up in the hair and who are still

Erin was able to determine what sort of trees they came from and that this particular sort of tree they can determine stuff, like my growth on the north side of slopes or are the girls in the shady area or in that sort of thing, so they have a sent. The team up to uh this this area in Gunnison and they began. To do what is called a great they they, you know, mark off a certain area and they essentially it's a walking across this area. Looking for anything, that's not normal, and if you think about scientists, A lot of what they they do is observe and they used you seeing what is different in any situation and that's how they've they first found the actually. The one of the naturalist found this

low and from there they were able to find the rest of the remains determined that the show no had indeed been killed, as opposed to just got lost in the forest. Um and were able to make the case against Roy Melanson it's been going on for twenty some odd years? So yes, it's one of those where you know the Bulldog mess up, but Kathy Young, the the investigator and then the work of Vneck Research International. Being able to find the remains and zoom the remains and find the evidence around it in the That sort of thing made a case against him and he was convicted of murder, is since then convict did in twenty eleven of the murder out in Sonoma and is

gonna a hold for another murder down in Louisiana. What's interesting about your book two? Is On the one hand, where you have the necro search international and these people outside of law enforcement Percy are brought into the full. To cooperate with law enforcement. But at the same time you stress in this book, as the detectives also stressed that it lots of these cracking of these cases comes down to. Despite all of this technology and forensic uh advances that it comes down to old, plain old, detective work, and part of that is that you put in your stories about the detectives and their investigation and

getting witnesses. Potentially new have someone named Chuck. Matthews was very instrumental along with the detectives in bringing Matheson or are too to actual to trial. So you tell us a little bit about work of the detectives to to look at Chuck Matthews in map used to come forward and be able to solve this case. With the help of this, you know call criminal truck Matthews. Well, yeah, that's the network search would be the very first people to tell you that you know it all starts with good detective work. If the police don't do their job at the detective who comes to them hasn't done their job. I know of places where they going to get involved because the detective comes to them or

may have heard all these guys, you know, will work miracles for you and hasn't done his homework and as I tell you about those questionnaires than the way neck, research, questions, detectives and agents, and that sort of thing when they show up it's pretty evident pretty fast. He's done his homework and who's done. Who hasn't and if they haven't, they will send them back to the drawing board, say check this check that check. You know who all these sorts of things get this information for you, and then, if you want after that, come back to us, but they were, they are, and, if you think about how connected the work of detective is as compared to the work that scientists do. Scientists are, are your ultimate Texas. They are, they have a problem they need to solve and they

they find all the evidence they can and they put the evidence together and they tried to figure out the the the answer to a theory, the and that's what detectives police detectives are doing as well, so They actually in many ways think alike You know there are obvious differences, but necklace search, insist that you know they give full credit to the detectives in the insist that the you know everything starts with the detective they're they're, just one more tool in the in the arsenal for a crime. Fighting now tell us about. Michelle Wallace and the trial, because I think this is obviously you can't get much more dramatic than the. Skull in the case, so I don't want to get ahead, but tell us a little bit about the further investigation, because this no,

sin is really just the beginning of their investing. Asian, and they realize that he is capable an responsive. For a lot more than they had originally thought. So so tell us a little bit about the further investigation of Melanson and the trial itself. What day has Kathy younger the detective continues along? She, we believe Now that Melanson is responsible for at least eight or nine murders, and probably many more than that. That's that's. The num sure of women, Texas, Louisiana, California, possibly Colorado who Hi to him inside have disappeared or I've been found murdered and in that sort of thing, so cap he's a very good detect. Give her this matter of fact. I had had a beer with their last night, so it's uh

is a long time relationships with some of these people and talk about old times, but she's very much Dick Ulous detective who stayed on his trail. One bald the different places and try to put some of these cases going to a certain area where is known to live in asking the police that, during the certain time did a woman disappear. You know, he's a he's, your stereotypical, if that's fitting description cyric. And its uses, young women and basically has certain ways and patterns of behavior that he does he's very smug, very arrogant, you know. Minimizes everything has an excuse, for everything has a reason for everything, and it's a dramatic moment

talking about in the trial- is that he didn't know they had found Michelle's, remains, or all of them, and do what they're going to do with the and in the courtroom they had when he comes into the courtroom room in the seat at the table, and they get ready to start. The whole thing and the prosecutor begins the opening statements. There's a a square on a table in his cover with a black cloth and in a dramatic fashion the black cloth is taken off There's Michelle Skull and it was identified as Michelle because of her dental work and there No denying that Michelle was dead, and here she was in the same courtroom an this. This Killer smog, arrogant brute. This is just the only way to

explain this guy. Suddenly his smile disappeared from his face and and he was he noted the trembled. This is someone he thought. He had murdered twenty five years before and in here she is brought back to you, know figuratively from the grave point to, announcer killer and, and in this is man who, as that I said, we we believe, has killed many women. And would have been, would have continued killing them and he was in jail, but he zone in jail for some property crimes at this time, and it would have been out then he is shown that every time he gets out, women die so there in a fact is Michelle back from the dead

in a way to condemn him and that's what initially convicted him and and have and behind bars and and I said he was also convicted and for that reason he was Ben Julie is DNA was put into the national computers. Which leads him to the murder in California and leads him to the murder in Louisiana. So this this one effort by tenacious detective in Gunnison who brought in these is kind of odd group of scientists and Sherlock Holmes stands and putting in there. Everything together brought a very evil man to justice. It's a great story. Great story of of justice triumphing over evil and the good people putting their heads together and

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people and the media response well, first for now for neck research is, it was obviously a morale. Booster A knew that there science should work that in and that it should be it could be applied. You know that, from botanist to identified. What's what side of the slope of a mountain to look forward and the altitude some of those sorts of things too, the the search patterns that archaeologists will. You say, looking for an old indian village do the excavation that so forensic anthropologist? We use to make sure that evidence is preserved and and those sorts of things, so they they. You know they just knew it would work, but they haven't had a real success. Yet this

in the media. It became a big story like I said it's, you know an HBO special. It was on forensic files. It's You know you can Google Michelle Wallace, which you don't get is the is the story of Cathy Young and hot in her tenacious notes and neck research is part of it. It's all sort of Some of that which is which is normal. But It you know it's it, it really put him on the map, and certainly you know other law enforcement people, of course, are paying attention in there. This is sort of the one of these things where it's wow. They found a murder victims from nineteen seventy six and here. We are twenty he's twenty years later, more and that Ashley Farmington Jason Pudding, putting a nasty serial killer away, so it

brought in other police. See paying attention to what are these guys doing, and and starting to share things to, you start getting agency talking, the FBI, saying: hey, have you ok, because the FBI will be contacted. As we know, by a local police agency saying you know we have a murder victim. We don't know how to find her. Can you help us in it? The F b, I might suggest, started saying things like well, you tried calling that research, international and- and I and I should point out that neck research only works at the request of the industry, in agencies, they don't work, for they won't work for a private individuals or or even families, because they don't want to get in the way of the process, the process and

and the things like chain of custody and and and all of that they work very closely with the investigating officers and when it comes time for the law enforcement to take back over. You know they step back and quietly pack, your things and go home come back to the trial at there. To to testify, but it's it was both a morale booster. It did bring other members internet research, people who heard about this and said hey. You know, I think I have something that may may why is of of help? I mean every from weather men to You know that all all all these other disciplines that you would never even consider, as something in forensics and so and also it are bringing in more police agencies who are certain to get the idea that these aren't just magicians or or

volunteers that they may actually have something here, no you included, we won't go as far as we did with the Melanson case, but I I just thought, there's some aspects of this Diane Kindel our case is this was murdered in nineteen sixty six and it took till nineteen. Ninety five to convict her husband and also what I want to mention, too, is the. What rent really runs through. This is course, the human element and all these people taking their and volunteering to do this and being greatly affected by the crimes themselves and then the family's response and and the seemingly their duty to to do whatever they could to resolve these cases and one of the

cases or part me one of the members that really seems to be for trade in your book as a very, very important member is the eight one. Nelson and his dog, Amy and after Amy die. So tell us a little bit about the importance of a one. Nelson and his blood hound got for one thing, that's a that's a and uh fortunate typo, that's been corrected in the book. That's Al Nelson, but he he's like we refer to as a one, if he's listening, I'm sure he's chuckling along, but that would there's a uh the the book when it was brought back from the printing thing the printer recognize it as a one instead of an l and then that slip by our copy editor, but it's been corrected since what is AL. Nelson, mister, A1, Nelson, I'm sure he'll start calling himself butts anyway. Yes, owls very important with his and his blood housing

out of an amusing story. It's my my dad's favorite story out of neck research, which is the how they were having a meeting and this person gets involved, gets introduced as a botanist in this person gets in produced as a a geologist in this person gets introduced as a you know, an anthropologist, and so they got the Allen. He introduced himself as the swapper ologist beak, bloodhounds and- and so that's that's. That's the sort of thing my dad gets amused by, but yes he's very in Morton Tennies, hinnies, probably one of the best bloodhound handlers, in the country and is well known both because of neck, search but offered just as work as a pleaser police officer, just retired, from the sheriff's office, but you know he's. He knows his dogs and

and is very good at what he does. As I mentioned, the let's talk a little bit about the Diane a title case and how it took this there almost thirty years, but Genkai Dell was finally brought to justice. So tell us a little bit about this at the issues that were prevalent that were overcome by necro search international in in being a to prosecute Jean Cadell successfully but, as you said, he'd Diane Rydell had disappeared in nineteen sixty six and shortly after she did appeared. There was also a fire in the house that ended up ended up killing two out of the three daughters and there's a son as well one daughter escape by Ashley her older sister laid on top of her as the fire was going on in and the the boy

They called out a window, so a die when was gone to the children are dead and it's men years later, when Lori Kidel comes forward and tell the police officer, I think my dad killed my mom and then burn down the house is killing a couple of My sisters, because he's worried that somebody knew something, but you know it's it's one thing to have. Somebody come forward twenty years later and and say. Oh, I think I remember this and you know- and I was or five years old and it was at night and some the memory, was a little bit shaky but something some of that details that she had seemed to be just to to right. One hundred and twenty two vivid to just blow off story. But you know

where is this by buddy- and you know if you, so little to the house or the large concrete pad in the back and. Pay pool or hot tub, ish sort of thing. On top of it, and and all this and you have to have you can't just go on private property and and start digging around? You have to be able to get a warrant and and permissions and all of these sorts of things so and then a reason why you are you're not allowed to just go on fishing expeditions that defense attorney will tear that apart and in trial and and suddenly have truck trouble. So actually they're waiting for the Melanson trial to come up Clark, Davenport a call from a police officer. Who'd been steered his way by, I believe the FBI at that time, I'm a little fuzzy on that one, but

He got steered down that way and went down there ground, penetrating radar. Then this is another case of police officer who oh boy, no, these as far as what what nice volunteer there is willing to spend their time and and do all these sorts of things. But you know this is a six inch deep, six inch thick cement pad and and possibly you know all sorts of pipes and stuff running under this the ground. What are we going to be able to find and- and, as you know, Clark ran the grant ground penetrating radar in back and they you know not to be a spoiler on too much of this. But it's it's it's another of the the next research success stories that has built there. Their legend up. It's the another. The the thing about no stone unturned is there

there's a collection of five or six true crime stories in there that are, you know each would make a great book they're, just it's connected by this, this the the wonderful group of of people now you you talk about the FBI being involved. Two in Davenport is doing some talks at Quantico, so everybody who the secret service in the at the ire and other jurors addictions are taking this neck research international, very, very seriously. What you did include in this book to what I thought was fascinating is that is that you know reading so many of these books- and you have read so many stories as well. Taking a five year olds word testimony again, she didn't actually see her father kill her mother. She said she had heard a great amount,

shoveling in the backyard sewer credit. How did tell us a combination, how she was so convincing. An a police officer was so attentive an an really objective in getting this story from a five year old to come to fruition. That's an amazing part of the story, I think, did you yeah, it's it's. It's sort of some of those things that remembered she'd, seen her mom and dad arguing, and she said- and I remember my mom wearing this blue code that I love with these gold buttons on it. Which becomes very important in the story later that and- and I heard this and that in the end you know and the the officer looked into it and the you know, people don't usually just completely disappear, even though Diane and and Jean Keitel had a rock the marriage. You know you don't usually and tickle

the a mom who loved her kids. One thing that was clear to the detective was dying, Rydell love your kids and wasn't likely to have just up and left how which was gene Kidel story is that she was seeing another man and just abandon her kids and left. So you know Once again, it starts with a great detective and all great detectives have a certain amount of intuition to me. It seems like the really good ones they are good at what they do, because their meticulous and they and they you know Do you use all the tools at hand, but the truly great ones seem to in the cold case, guys in particular seem to have intuition of what is real and what sounds right, and even though he knew this, this woman, young woman,

who still had the marks of the fire on her neck and face it's been twenty some odd years since this happened. You know there was something about her and something about some of the details. She she remember that you know, and then he started looking into it and did the research about you know dying kind, it was a good mom. All of your kids. Everybody said that and but had never been seen, no credit cards now being able to find her is so slick, Thirty car number used again, and you know that, but the problem with that is it okay? Well, how do you prove she truly didn't just meet a man and walk off? That's not that it hasn't happened before and maybe they argued just like the little girl, sad and- and she walked left that night, you so the the fire was suspicious, but it was sort of really poor

only done investigation so that didn't come out right away, that it was being used, possibly cover up the murder of Diane, but you know that's that thing with that neck research has to as good as they are. They have to rely on on great detectives who have done their homework. So that when, when it Reynolds who was the detective in Arizona, came to Colorado to talk to Nick Research at one of their meetings. And they asked him all these questions. He either knew the answers. Are you went back there is on and got the answers. It's interesting to that and it's a lucky break that the you all the new owner of the home, the former home where gene cartel lived was very cooperative and so allow them to do things that they might not have been able to do. If it were

means property right. It would have been a bigger fight date. You know you it that they're getting the search warrants and and a judge to go for the, would have been, would have been tougher and and who knows you, find the wrong judge and or Genkai delegates, the better lawyer, then suddenly you don't get to do it at all. So it was good. They had cooperation on that, but it was still important that they couldn't they they, could bring in neck research and, if Clark say Clark, runs the ground, penetrating radar and doesn't really see anything ok and then, of course, not everybody understood with ground. Penetrating radar does horsies or or gives you but You know he doesn't have this, then some judge looks at it says. Well, you know it was an illegal search. You know you

didn't, have any reason to be looking in that particular corner of the yard other than you are on a fishing expedition. You know and dug yourself, one thousand and ten holes or something in the backyard. So you can run into all these legal issues when you do that sort of thing. But yes, it was was good that the owner, Operated but you know otherwise it would have been a fight to get a judge to say here's our case here's why we believe she's buried in the backyard we'd like a search warrant in which is what they would have done next, if the owner hadn't done cooperative. Now, as we alluded to earlier- and you had spoken about it as Well- tell us about how you became in evolved first, as an honorary member of Neck Research international in a full, fledged member. Tell us about the case and in Russia and the Roman off tell us a little bit about that and how you came to be part of NEC research. International.

Well very, very interesting case, a man name, Peter Sarandon Aki. Who is a great gray, son of a white russian general, the White Russian General, who was actually trying to get to Ekaterinburg Catherine Bergen time. Save the tsar and the family and arrive six days too late he was in the United States, and he noticed he saw what and most of the family had been located by some russian archaeologists and historians, and and revealed in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one is fascinated by part. What fascinated him was that The children were missing, of the grand Duchesses and Alexia the heir, apparent the son of bizarre and so he kind of made it his quest. There's a there's, a fascinating in book in this I'm actually working on as a historical book because,

his father and his father. Actually who's was the generals, adjutant and married the generals daughter, and that would then Peter's, grand father and grandmother brought some the evidence that had been collected by a detective in Russia, along with the detective to Europe and included the this finger and some other evidence in bullets and and these sorts of things is a great detective story, but so Peter Scott? Well, you know it's just he thought more about it. It was like you know my grandfather, Father great Grandfather and my grandfather started. This investigation to find out what had happened to the royal family and were unable to prove it or find the remains, and and yes, some of the remains were found in the ninety one. But what happened to these other children, ticket? Are we all know that you know there's been rumors that Anna Stasia survived for

I'm a long time. Afterwards there were several Anastasia's and hands movies made about it's in cartoons made about it. Then, and so he started this idea. Let's try to find the last two children, and so he Games, research where he's been introduced, the some of the furnace against that of the University of Florida SEN to Diane France, who is a member of neck research and one of the top forensic anthropologists for the world and it is a little bit out of character for net research because they are usually working on provable. Murder things and helping law enforcement do their their bit, but I mean how could you resist the historic

locations of this and that and romance of of searching for the last two children so long ball, the that neck. Research got involved in the early stages, but they actually got over there and there was something minor international incident when the Russians wanted to say that the grand Duchess Marie was missing and and Alexis the But and took a look at all the bones that they had and said. No, I think Marie is here because of the bone, bone, growth and all these sorts of things, and I think, with Anna Stasia Missing and, of course, that just sent the Russians two it to any, because they did not want to hand if they use it to this rumor to to remain alive it out in the world that there was a survivor. Roman Romanoff so the part of neck researchers thing, would have been to to find the other two children, and but this sort of God

research booted out of out of Russia and not invited back for this, and so but Peter did continue with this and in two thousand and seven glass to the two children Grand Duchess and Alexia were were were. There remains were found. What was left of them and so the family together, there still some arguments about which was Alexa Anastasian, which was Marie, but it doesn't really matter now because they found everybody and it's been proven with dna and in all these things, but just as that was wrapping up. I one of the Russians came to Peter and said you know, there's one more Romanoff missing it's the grand duke, Mikael Romanoff, who was the Tsar's brother and actually these are for a day after Nick with abdicated

then uh Mikael was made bizarre, but I think he he thought so. The writing on the Wall and Saturday at didn't, want to be, and but nineteen teen about a month before the most of the race. The rest of the family was down, and he Ekaterinburg the grand Duke Mikael Romanoff, who is sort of a dashing Calvary officer type in his mail secretary? Brian Johnson were taken from their apartments in up Russia and taking out along the road according to some of the diaries of the killers and stopped and the executed then then buried in a show Our grave now the Bolsheviks are famous for lying about, you know where they put bodies and and all these sorts things trying to throw people off so anyway. Peter decided that he would continue the search for the the last remaining.

Missing Romanoff and I was invited to go along on that back. The first search back in twenty thirteen and I poked six thousand eight hundred and seventy holes in mother Russia, so that a cadaver doctor to follow along behind me and sniff, each one of these holes foods the and we didn't find, anything then and uh, other than it was a lot of revolutionaries, the russian Revolutionary WAR stuff that we were on nursing in finding and and all these sorts of things and about so we narrow down some other areas. They went back again last year and it didn't have success again, but we are going back one more time, in June of this year to I think we have a good handle on where we might find the remain is this time and and third time is a charm. We hope- and

But anyway, after after my you know, the neck research was very humble people, but they did like the book. No stone unturned, It seem to you know, give them a Here's who we are and here's our history and that sort of thing- and they made me an honorary member of the of the group that back in twenty fourteen and and then they decided in February to make me a full member and so I'll be going back to Russia as a full member. Of neck research international as their historian and their media relations person. Well, congratulations on that. Can you tell us roughly? I know that there is sort of a fluid group as well, but tell us how many members roughly comprise necro, searching

national right now. I believe there are close to about fifty. Now it you're right there. It is fluid, sometimes that they members uh all over the United States and actually some people, some Necros chapters in other countries, Britain and Australia. So So you know, if you include those, then the numbers are different: there hum at any meeting. He particular meeting here, you'll pass So two thousand five hundred and forty people perhaps and you know a lot of different types of people have that yet the national missing and exploited children. You probably heard of that group before through the Department of Justice they

we have members who are now members of net research and regularly attend the meetings. You'll find a different federal agencies have numbers and or people who attend these meetings in in sort of shows you the growth and respect that neck research has that you know they are. They are considered peers of these people. Now not not just your you're, not nutty group love have fun. Loving and and Sherlock Holmes. Loving scientists scientists there right up there with your your your keeps with all the news recently about all the discredited former forensic techniques such as bite mark her,

analysis fiber analysis, even some fingerprint analysis is come into question. It is testament to some of this stuff has been done slowly and carefully and to ensure that it doesn't it it. Can't be shaken in court cases in the future or presently. So it is testament that some of these techniques that they've been innovators in, have been adopted and accepted as kredible forensic in the. Tools. Well, yes, get it. You know that while they have forensic chemists and people who work for the groups, like the Colorado Bureau investigation and and do some of these other things in serology and that sort of thing their main empty, this is on finding graves and remains and protecting evidence

and that sort of thing and they use their their skills and their knowledge to crack these cases and help the police that way, so you know they They are careful, they're, very careful not to be adamant about the We, the hundred percent, rely ability of anything they do it, he good scientists. You know you have some television sciences, send an expert, supposedly and and all these sort of people who who get on there and talk about you know the infallibility of whatever they do. But any good scientist will tell there's always room for error, and there's always a possibility of of dad. Being offer wrong, and in these guys are you know, and maybe it's because they come from these different disciplines where they don't have to the television stars or or

you know in the latest, Oj Simpson, trial or or something like that, that You know they they recognize the weaknesses of what they do and they recognize and they try to eliminate errors, realizing that errors well can be and will be made, but they they do their best. Then, and you know it's just a testament that uh. You know there are a number of killers who have been put away in good part because of neck research and there's more on the way there new cases coming in all the time and if anybody out there thinks he's got a body it that nobody can find well. They may want to talk to Jean tide and Tom and Roy Melanson, and Tony Emery about the the body they thought would never be found. Because now there behind bars because of net research. Absolutely

what's interesting, is that we really ought. We touched on basically the really just a forensic innovation and the team forming your involvement, and just we just touched on a couple of cases. What your book is is full of full blown cases where we really get into the emotional uh of emotionality, of not only the neck research, international team, but also the detectives that are involved and very much against sort of that idea that these people have to remain detached. They are exact opposites there completely emotionally involved from the beginning, to the very end and beyond it would name with this. Well, they are you know there, if you think about them. You know their volunteers and their they've all

Yes, they you know they they're like Sherlock Holmes and there's a certain excitement of being involved as crime fighters. He you know he he you spend your life looking for you know how could deposits heard something in in Suddenly, you get to go, help solve a murder investigation. You know, that's that's exciting, but you know where they are to a person that I've met there? hum anyway. It just good people. You know there there's and fathers and in I truly and even the people who are in the lot who have been in the law enforcement. Sides of it you know, or just you know they feel for the victims. They they try and have learned through times through heirs, to be a little bit detached as far

as you know, trying wanting to promise? Somebody will find her. You know. That's! That's the first human thing that you would to do is don't worry, we'll find her, and and then realizing that you know has sciences. They can't promise that sort of thing that's hard on him and a number of Uh, we talked about the other. Given we can flow of the membership almost all of 'em that I've met early on are still there, but you know sometimes they have to take a break sometimes some of these cases. Start on. You know they are. Are they, about the humanity of it. They they see the grieving families they attend trials trials, talk to talk to people and- and of course, you know detectives

Yeah, you know, and I I try to emphasize this in my books to or you know there are humans as well. There's police, with getting lots of bad wraps these days but these detectives, who are solving cold this is an listening to little girls talk about how their father killed their mom and then killed her sisters. You know they, they are family men who care for these people and the necklace search people can't help but pick up and that to a lot of it is they they want to do this as much for some of these detectives at They do for the families just because they know what kind of an emotional cost this has on all sorts of people ripple effect of violent crime goes far beyond just the victim, so yeah, it's it's tough on him, and sometimes they have to step away.

You know kind of the amazing part. Is they come back and they there are always willing to to try. Try again, you include in your book very tragic stories to show you I don't know. I guess maybe that just to demonstrate that the profound effect on some people- and that despite going through a trial and having a loved one murdered, they also become a victim of murder or violence themselves. So include a story of a gentleman that, when he's eighty six years old thinking that everything that's bad is in the past, so it's just a little bit about before. We end just tell us a little bit of that store. Are you talking, George Wallace Michelle's, Father yeah? yeah. What to talk about family that just couldn't catch a break.

You know Michelle disappeared and Michelle was sort of she had a brother and he's a he's. A good guy, too, and obviously loved by his parents, but Michelle was the shining light. She was just about to take a job as a national, geographic photographer and was adventurous and and just just a different sort of person. And very much loved by her mom and her dad and I'm in, as I said, weeks into looking for Michelle sort of realizing that she's gone and then this way saint. Michelle that something that happened to her George went to bed with his wife. One night said his wife had been done. With the kitchen and when he woke up in the morning his wife was dead sheet. Taken overdose and left? A note saying I can't wait anymore and please bury me with my my daughter so for

so George had to bury his his wife, we love very much and he had same daughter who no one could find and a killer out there somewhere who Nolan could convict They found Michelle when they did, and you know which of course brought him some closure, but he in and they went to the trial and and this this killer was did and he got the look at that man and and know that this is that the killer was was caught but the day before for Michelle's remains, were sent to him to bury with his first wife. His second wife died of cancer so this George Wallace, said what first wife, second wife and his daughter in when something

like this happens. You know any of us who are parents have to understand that you lose a child like this? Is it life? Is you know? Life goes on, but it's never the same again yeah and then to have lost your daughter, your wife's, you next, why to cancer and then to top it all off Georges living in Florida. When Two men broke into his house and beat him into a coma and George died several several days later, it's just it is sometimes you you look up to the sky and yeah and yeah, ask you know. What's what do you think? What's what's going on here that anyone family has to suffer that much and you know, and Then there are right now, at least here on this planet. There are no answers to some of that, but

You know you do have dragon fighters and slayers out there and and monster hunters, and you know I always like the end. These shows that as dark as some of this stuff is, is that there are good guys. And they do, and they may be detectives or FBI agents, but they also maybe p, full like neck research International, who, you know, fight the darkness. And and try to bring justice and- and some answer even if we don't get all the answers, yes, this book really is again. We as we talked about a really really sad chapter in the book with George Wallace. But really it isn't an upbeat story of success where the snide smug, criminal killer is finally brought the justice, and even like you say it seems other word-

really where the forensic team brings. The skull right into the try, trial and very very profound moment where, basically, like you say from the grave justice, is done, the cooperation of law enforcement and these new, these new crusaders, employing all of their scientific knowledge to and again just from the bottom of, their heart volunteer. Their their time and energy to this very honorable pursuit- and I want to thank you very much for talking about this with no stone unturned. As I mentioned earlier, you, you are also a publisher, the press, so press so other than no stone unturned. Maybe you could tell us a little bit what's next for yourself and maybe a couple of the other interesting true crime offerings from, wild blue press. Well, we're we're real, proud of some of our

so- we have out by Kevin Sullivan and John Ferric in Boro and RON francella- brother and actually a detective Bradley Nickel who's written his first book repair. And out of LAS Vegas. You know there. We have new people coming to us all the time where we're proud what we are, which is a a publishing company for authored by authors, we're trying to not just be an indie publisher, but the the new face of publishing and and get up bring ourselves up against. The big boys, it with what we offer both and new books. And in Bacliff such some of these crime books that never never got much publicity you're much knowledge just because of the way traditional publishing has gone, but I'm

working on several one is: the the russian book, the Peter surrounded, not he's booked book also I will be doing a book on Roy Melanson and his depredations, like we barely scratched the surface of that brute. Yeah and then I had my own little run in with gunmen last August and and he finally just got joke so I'm going be right now, how a little bit of a uh story on on that incident, then what came of it, and and- and that's that's sucks the story out here: uh about often cigarette seventeen year old, who kidnapped and murdered a ten year old, which is not my usual sort of a story I want to do, but it's a story about community and family and and once Again, you know the light, show

sitting there in the darkness of some of these things. So we have a We have a lot of of authors, come when I'm bored and a lot of new books and anybody who wants to check with that is at wildbluepress dot com and invite you to take a look and try our our writers that were trying to get some people who might not get the, opportunity, the opportunity as well and and to do it quality and style. So we are we're proud of what we're doing and we're getting there. Absolutely it's a it's. A great company was great authors, and I really like your philosophy of taking some of their past works and some of the new work then just your overall philosophy is refreshing in terms of the problems with the traditional publishing and so it's again you're a bright beacon for authors and for true crime reading fans as well. So

I applaud you for that. I want to thank you very much steeper coming on in stock talking about no stone unturned in necro search international. I want to thank you very, much and have yourself a great evening, well thank you to Dan and Ann. I I'd like to say that we rely on people like you, you know you and some Colleagues, Blogtalkradio, you know we're up against the big boys and we don't have their kind of resources and so for p Well like you to actually take this kind of time out of your day and and that get us on the air and and get the word out there to people with. Very appreciated, and we see you as a friend and colleague. So I thought I didn't know that. Well. Thank you very much Steve I I'm just like I said I mentioned Before- is that I'm just proud to be

small part of this really really interesting and great, friendly and cooperative community, which is the true crime community of authors, readers and publishers. Everybody that's involved in this, bringing interesting and fascinating to crime stories to the public. So I want to thank you very much and I'm just grab the glad to be just a small part of it, but thank listing for in in talk to you soon. Yes, absolutely have a great night right. You too, this episode or two murder has been brought to you by herries dot com and, if you ever thought how great it would be to never have to go to the drug store for expensive razor, blades and shaving cream ever again, Harry's delivers a superior shave. Shipping is always absolutely free and starter kit is just fifteen dollars.

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