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Don't talk radio You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, in January, one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine as London constables hunted for Jack. The ripper and theaters around the world presented theatrical renditions of the Jekyll and Hyde story: Jackson,

Michigan, police, captain, hi, folks, Dierks Bentley, here being on the go, is a big part of my life. I love seeing new places, meeting new people and performing all over the world for enerji on the go for Maine. It's five hour, energy. It works fast works long and it tastes. Good was zero sugar in four calories. Try it it could work for on the go life two five hour: Energi Energi on the go, get five hour: energies at your local, seven hundred and eleven Jack Boyle. So search for the murderer, a merry Latimer. This book follows Captain Boy, to the bordellos of gaslight era. Detroit pop did buy madams, pimps, prostitutes and gamblers. It descr the investigation that led him to a pharmacist, the proud the streets akin to a real life, Jekyll and Hyde. Ultimately, the book delves into the mind of Robert Irving Latimer known as the

most dangerous prisoner in Michigan and the man who inspired talk about resurrecting the state's long dead death penalty. The books were featuring. The seating is pardonable Matricide, Robert Irving, Latimer from Mission Men's most dangerous inmates to free man with my special guest journalist and author Tobin T book. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview Tobin T book thanks for having me Dan Thank you very much. We're going to go way back in history to the late eighteen, hundreds here and first off, let hello audience how you came to want or to be in a position to write this book. Pardonable matricide. I have been writing about historic, true crime, primarily from my base in Michigan

for a long time for a number of years and that began with some investigation work. I did as a volunteer in the Kent County morgue, which was research for my first two books, which were up cause of death and skeletons in the closet, and they were a way for people to take a look at see what really happens inside of a morgue as opposed to the kind televised reality that you see about boards on tv, and I love history and sold kind kind of came together and there are a couple of cases that are just delightfully. Delicious subway. It probably the wrong word to say in this context, but they're really twisted and interesting and One of them was the Irving Latimer case, and I had read some

grass here and there about the case, but nothing book length, and when I started looking into it. As often happens with my writing, I discovered that there was a lot of much more to the story than there's been told before so I started taking. And the rocks that I covered the story that I found underneath easterners pardonable matricide. Now this the there's around a place that Jackson Michigan that we introduced so first tell us a little bit about Jackson, Michigan and its location, and then talk about a case that influences this case and also introduces Pretty well all the main characters, especially in law enforcement and prosecution, the Jacob Crouch case so nineteen, eight eighteen, eighty three in November, you talk about that case. So tell us a what about Jackson, Michigan and this case that sets up this very, very infamous case in one thousand, eight hundred and eighty eight, then

the 1880s Jackson was a mid sized midwestern town that was located it's in southeastern Michigan, located between Detroit but Chicago, so any other early traffic that was going from east to west or vice or would have passed by that area. So it became kind of a major stop for train its significance in our areas. History is that it how's the states first, maximum security penitentiary and that would be the only facilities for long term inmates until I believe it was one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine. You're, one thousand eight hundred and ninety when they opened up a second branch, Michigan zup. So Jackson is an interesting situation because, it's a city within a city most of the, they both have many of the industries that were at work in Jackson, work collab

little too or supported by the prison itself. What's interesting about about this, and how it's different from today is that prisoners when they were sentenced to prison or sentence to work at hardly Someone give me a sentence of twenty years at hard, labor and hard labor was supplied by manufacturer others who essentially purchased labor through the prison. So a lot of like Jackson, wagon company which make wagons for nationwide a factory literally inside the walls of the prison, so Jackson, state penitentiary, is actually called the Michigan State penitentiary. Each access penitentiary. Various times in its history was the largest Wall prison in the world and part of the reason for that is because you tried the walls they had. All these prison industries, which were really

run by private firms in it around the Jackson area. So it's fascinating, because it's a city within a city was a family that was murdered in cold blood and the case is never really Benz calls how it's relevant to pardonable, matricide Irving Latimer case, is that most of the major players, if not all, of the major players right down to the prosecutor and the defense attorneys, had played some type of role in that case and what's fascinating, is that the world was sold different back then, when these investigators went to take a look at the crime scene. They allow the public full view of the crime z, and so you had reporters and members of the public who are just more the curious wondering injured around the crouch farm hubs and that led to a little bit of a backlash, because there were some criticism that the crime scene had been spoiled by all of the feet that gone through that, for when the Latimer case came up in Mary Latimer was found slain in her bedroom. They closed off the crimes.

Mean to everybody but a reporter. I think there was one loan reporter in the house at the time, but at during the time of the investigation. So now we fast forward to eighteen. Eighty eight tell us about the background of Robert Irving, Latimer and his mother. Tell it tell us about his family background How do you write? They were natives of Jackson. His dad was to business as a pharmacist, and he that dreams of something bigger and they moved out to the east coast for awhile, where his dad opened up the factory it ultimately folded. Irving Latimer spent his formidable teen years there and eat acquired a reputation very early on is a ladies man. We call him a skirt chaser today are away whatever term you want to use. There were all kinds of with trivia:

rumors going on about the might have had with older woman, the family, relocated back to Jackson, when Irving Latimer was, I believe, in his late teens and his dad went back into business of pharmacist and eventually Irving Latimer, followed in his dad's footsteps and purchase the Westside pharmacy. After stand on expected passed away, and he became he went into business. Sort of speaking became a pharmacist. The family itself was very well known in Jackson. They were very well respected. They were not. What you would call upper class, you call them more. Like middling, class or middle class. The house was a kind of a standard size, 1880s eighteen, 90s style house, not real big, but it was real close to

do. A part of Jackson where the upper across families did live in their victorian mansions, and I think that Latimer had a little beautiful for that style now he became. I think that there is essentially a public letter. Try that letter he You mentioned in the introduction that it was very much a Jekyll and Hyde Character. I think that's really a great comparison, because the to the Jackal was the guy did everybody like he was the boy next door. He was the guy who did the x Jairus daughter. He was the guy who the families at the church at the family church wanted to. They wanted. Their boys to emulate the hide was the guy that came out at night.

It was the one who got hired as old supply you with the one that took relic regular, regular trips to Detroit, where he spent his time gambling and taking drugs and spending time in the red Light district with a with a Prostitutes, the mother and the Father will really well respect it, but I think that Latimer's reputation eventually caught up to him. He got involved in a couple of scandals that pretty much ruined his reputation so when he was in his 20s. Now you talk about Mary Latimer and this West End Pharmacy and, of course, looks like

Ralph all appearances that Robert has learned something from his father about running a business, and this is the west and pharmacy, but tell us what the conditions are that he gets the money for the pharmacy does not help. That comes to be what what the conditions are. A pretty good. The father passes away unexpectedly The father's insurance is split between the mother and the Son and the fun uses his share by the West End Pharmacy and pharmacy was small pharmacy and it was one of only several in the area, but it was real prosperous. So, theoretically, the book should have been written in nothing but black ink, but they were written in red, acquired all kinds of debt because of the hide in him. He

without spending his money at gambling and womanizing and visiting problems in Detroit. So the farmers feed itself would have been a really good business for him, but he had a lot of fighters that sort of gotten away of that, so I think you learn the business from his father, but I don't think he really learn business sense from his father. You talk about the pharmacy to before we get into January 25th, one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine. But you talk the pharmacy and the availability of narcotics at that time. As you write, tell us some of the drugs that were available to a person like Latimer, if so inclined Seoul inquired about Latimer could have gotten his hands on any or all of the following substances: cocaine, and that is, I think, his drug of choice. He was spotted at one point in time, walking around the other

she's trying to get his hands on it. Well, here what could have been got over to call the opium morphine and then mixtures of the what plot them, which is a mixture of opium and alcohol and then paregoric, which I believe is a mixture of tincture of opium and alcohol, which is even stronger than logical and people, really understand the concept of addiction like they do today. So the substance with a bit a over the counter for people are headache. Remedies have a drug label from the Michigan Pharmacy, just for example that who is current work listed as forty seven point: five percent alcohol like with one point, nine grains of opium so would be like a ninety. Nine Four hundred and ninety three proof glass of whiskey, spiked with the opium and on the drug label. It give the dosages and the youngest is three months old and they get

a couple of drops of this and then in a ten month old, gets a few more drops and then we go all the way to adult who gets a full teaspoonful. So people put this stuffer it for headaches and wow, which felt pretty good, so they started to use it without really a concept of of addiction, and you don't have to go that far back in history like, like my grand father, predated up penicillin and you know when they got sick, they give the kids a shower wall and it really didn't do anything except treat the symptoms. I think but vehicle a generation earlier than that for use even harder stuff, and in addition to this, he could have gotten substances that of substances such as core for was available to come right, though, if you will people used to for maybe if they had stepped on a nail or something and they wanted to take it out, put somebody out of people could have got their hands.

Strychnine and arsenic in strict line which is a heavy will. Poison is a rather interesting substance because it was those are rodenticide to it's in the granary, but believe it or not. Strychnine in small doses at the time, was used as that air's version of value or diazepam. It was a young. It was a anti anxiety medication, so you could We've got an issue which we had lived in that arrow. We could have gotten all kinds of stuff over the counter, whatever right sure. Now, let's get to January twelve 25th, one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine, as you write, Mary Latimer is fifty three years age and fifty three years of age at that time. Anderson, Robert Irving, Latimer. Is our only child and he has a keeps a bedroom at family home but as you write these rarely there and he spends nights at the pharmacy a car at the pharmacy. Now

Mary's friend is someone named Kate Burrows. Tell us what Kate those does. Which concerned about Mary being alone. Tell us what happens. She's concerned about Mary being alone, because Mary at this point in time is a widow and she's got a weak heart and Kate concerned about her health and on day one one very early morning. She sees that the groceries have been dropped by the side door and usually Mary, would have been there to accept the groceries and bring them in so right away. She thinks that something might be wrong, so she goes to the house.

And she runs into a paper hanger. So a wallpaper who was doing some work for the latter for family and they go in through the basement up into the kitchen and there they find the dog chip, and I think the dog had bloody footprints that he was tracking around the house, but they go up the staircase to to her bedroom and that's where they find her kind of a bloody mess She had been beaten, she had been shot, she had been slumped over a chair and it looks like what happened was she was trying to get to the window, perhaps to open a call out when she collapsed and died. Now you say right away, there's a response from the police chief, Eugene De Winnie and Captain Jack Boyle. What do Find in terms of right away what might be the motive for this killing

and what did they find in terms of any other physical evidence present? So the physical evidence that they find some interesting physical evidence that they didn't entirely understand. It first was In the latter, bedroom were Robert, sometimes slept. They found a blood spatter handkerchief. That. They thought? Perhaps the killer had gone in there to wipe his hands. They also found some blood spots on the pillow itself. Now one of the theories was is that the dog had taken the handkerchief off of the floor and jumped up on that bed and carry the blood with it, but it didn't quite seem to fit. They also found some blood stain on a gas jet, but probably the single most compelling piece of evidence that the file, what is the Mary's

dentures, which is essentially, then I think, blown in sprinkled across the floor like marbles? I think his height scribe that in the book now, what I mean by it being important is that she essentially bit down in her attacker. They thought an when they narrow down the field. They turned. It turned out that the attacker had to damage thumb in that the damage on the phone with a perfectly fit her flight had he attacked her from behind, so they were able to. I think, use that to pair up the killer with with the victim. Tell one of interesting thing about this, though, is the way they handled. Evidence is a little bit different and series. Their underlying theories is a little bit different than it was today and in part. This is why I enjoy reading about historical crime. So much is because it's so different than it is today.

Now, when we get to the crime scene is pretty Sample of a piece of evidence, they really wanted to find which they thought would be like a smoking gun type of proof, but they never did find to get. The science doesn't support it and that's something called Forensic Opt Agra It was assumed at the time that the human eye function just like a camera. I think the optics are somewhat similar. The physical processes our camera took the picture and how the eyeball work somewhat similar in that led to the conclusion that a person captured on there I an image of the last thing. They saw in a murder case. That would inevitably be the killer. So in cases like this, this error, they would take it a camera in it would prop it up over the body, and they would try to take photographs of the eyes and analyze that for the possible image of the killer, which, I guess, there's no science in science. Behind this, it's a pseudo song.

This is what we call that today, but a really interesting. How they do things differently than they did today. You also talk about that. The question neighbors and they are amid the mist of- are mystified that that that the dog doesn't bark for this suppose intruder that no one hears any any, but soon as they come to the crime scene, the dog barks. So that's. Put in their in their little book in terms of notable things about this crime scene, doesn't it oh yeah? Absolutely because the dog is capable of parking, it's an old age. It dog that's on its last legs, so to speak, but it's couple of barking in it does in fact bark when others are around when stray here's our regular people, the dog, isn't quite familiar with. Why did the dog doesn't bark, because the person who

many killed? Very Latimer, wasn't the stranger at least not to the dog. Yet so again, that's an interesting piece of evidence that suggest that it tended to show that the killer may has been intimately acquainted with very latter parts of which are cheaper for brought Robert to to you within each right at the top, and he came back to Jackson and he was interviewed in the house with the body still slumped over the chair in the next room. It curiously, he had no interest whatsoever and seeing his mother's body's affect was off, he didn't seem, like you acted like a man and we just lost his beloved brother and even more to viciously. He offered up a now a little too perfect that combined with the fact that and that Robert Irving Latimer had a head injured. All this started one and one together and they,

but they came up with, but he seems, like the most logical suspect. Now, how do they go about investigating and NG or disproving this perfect alibi, so the phone Jack Boyle to Detroit on it's a basically backtrack to follow in Latimer's footsteps in find out what he was doing and they interview the personnel at the hotel that he stayed in and basically Latimer's alibi was that he checked into the Griswold Hotel in downtown Detroit in and during the hours of the crime he was fast asleep in his bed? Well, they interviewed some of the hotel personnel the made in particular was or wasn't important here, and they were all convinced that Latimer never slept in the battle

Well, he attempted to make it look like you slept in the bed so boil so. There's a missile period of time- and it's that period of time, which he says he's asleep in the bed that they try to find out where he actually was. No, they they they go to boil goals, and I do FISA Barber who shaves Latimer the next day and the barber tells him that Latimer's got all this blood spots on his on his not as close, and you don't want to go use the wash wash station the base and the clean up so that suspicious then boil starts looking at the train, timetables and interview trained personnel, and it turns out that trained personnel. Or they fall out of on the train that was headed to a from Detroit to Jackson, around midnight and

Are him return on the train sometime around four hundred o'clock in the morning, so it appeared that what he attempted to do with set up a perfect to Detroit checking in cool hotel, sneaking out of the hotel, jumping onto a train for Jackson, doing the dirty deed and then getting back on the train for Detroit and going back sneaky back into the Griswold Hotel and telling everybody that he is flat. It's? It's it's during the the time frame of the crime and it's kind of interesting because he had given himself a little bit of an hour. I don't know he is intended to do this when the engineer the perfect alibi, but his out was when they told him. Look, you know we. We don't think you know we think you're on these trains. We think he came back to Jackson he had kind of what kind of a pocket story that he was looking for. This woman named Trixie.

And he thought he saw her go onto a train, headed east and uh he followed her on on the next training and wound up in Jackson, and he didn't fight. You're, so he wandered around, so he could catch the next train and never did go home. So when he finally fessed up to that story, he put himself in Jackson during the time frame of the murder. There are searches of the home that wield that yield some surprises and some evidence. There are further investigations to find out some financial dealings that Robert Had with his mother tell Now it comes to be that they find out this new supportive evidence. They have a lot a man who was responsible for

looking into taking care of Mary Latimer's a state and he those responsible for putting the house up for sale when Robert Irving Latimer was being tried for the crime during investigated jailed tried and he was going to so drawers and he found some some evidence and paper that indicated that Robert leverage borrowed a borrowed, a significant sum of money from his mother, and so she was his creditor and the payment. Coming. Do I think it was coming due in January of eighteen, eighty, nine and so there was a fiscal motive for killing very Latimer, because that way he can get himself out of having to make the payment and her money and pay off his his other creditors. So He had some financial motives for doing for the fourth of current. So now, not only was he in Jackson at the time, but he also had the means in the opportunity. You talk about

the media's role in this case, and you also talk about the media's role with the judiciary. You talk about there being at the crime scene at the crouch crime scene, where not only did they let the public and to see things like body still there, but also the media had, let's say, a bigger. Responsibility, and at least more privileges when it came the judiciary and the courtrooms. So what was the take on this and again, this is called man, For so how serious the depressed take this and what was the public's response? The the press took this really seriously this? This became headline headline news, of course, in Jackson, but also throughout Detroit. All Detroit Papers ran ran with it and covered it front, page news for a long time right up through the trial

Conviction, and not only that, but the case filtered outward and made headlines in the big rags throughout the United States. So this was hoping that the press kind of eased on and I think the reason that is because of the Matricide element, it's really uncommon, to commit, for commit matricide fora matricide to occur. You wouldn't think that would be the case, but it is, usually when it's done, it's a man, killing killing a mother and usually it's done in a bedroom in a location that they're not both very familiar with. So there's a bad enough cases over the last one hundred years to create a profile and- and it's amazing how closely he fits the profile right down to the age range, but there hasn't been that many cases mattress. I just really really a common now murder

ones. Lover spouse is called boobs or aside and that's much much more common, but the fact that it was match your side in this era in particular, really think triggered off sort of a media storm about the case itself. That was some. Is that the media in in most cities that never never heard of repentance? He stopped before was the killing of one And then there are other interesting facets of the to the the Jekyll Hyde Aspect. I mean the strange case of Dr Jekyll and Hyde. I think was first published. The eighteen mid 1880s, I wanna say without looking one thousand eight hundred and eighty five perhaps, and so they We use the term Jekyll and Hyde to refer to him. So here you have a case of a real life, Jekyll and Hyde that fit the fictional version pretty well with people. It pretty much know by this point because it had been performed in theaters all over the place, so the media not only took it seriously, but they, but they tended to really

the investigate they had reporters who are running around the following his footsteps. They had reporters who are on the streets, interviewing people, I'm trying to find angles trying to figure out. What's going on interview the women in his life, I wouldn't say that they were incredibly intrusive with male suspects yeah. In this era they often didn't have access to them once they went behind bars, which would been true for females because of the the the possibility of a scandal. Email suspects were almost always interrogated in Full view of the press and press were even allowed to ask questions which creates an interesting layer for a researcher that isn't there for male suspect. So in this particular case I wouldn't say really necessarily inclusive, but that probably the most insidious factors of the media attention this case was their inability to secure a jury. Defense lawyer during their lot here

quickly, illuminated everybody. He could that that had her about the case and that look pretty much everybody because it had been published so widely in the press. You talk about preliminary attracting all kinds of it mentioned, so they didn't wait till the trial. So it was the preliminary that created all kinds of interest and in resting Lee too, even though this was a rogue and you talk about his character, really not having any use for any of his friends. There were people that he had encountered and acquaintances and business partners. I guess our business acquaintances. It really firmly believe that he could not have done this. He was a hard. I think he if he was alive today, I think he'd be the life of the party. He'd, be the guy that always got a circle of people around him. At a party women

in particular, there laughing and he's telling jokes he's being extremely charismatic individual to degree, I think, get to know the real Robert erring Latimer He was a hard man to get to know and I think he tended to use people in dispose of them like they were kleenex. So again, that's that part of that Jekyll and Hyde type of vibe that you think he had the interesting thing about that. I find about trials of the era. Is you have to keep in mind the context? This is an arabic Four, there were reality. Tv shells before the world was shows like law and order and those type of things I'll be in the press. I think in the 1880s. They had pretty much thanks for anything that was really spicy, and then you have to kind of read between the lines what it means when, when they talk about prostitutes, they don't use the word prostitute. Very often the

use a series of synonyms that are a little less less racy. You might say I mean after all, this is an era, were tablecloth, go right to the floor and the because they didn't want guys. Looking at the lake the table, because summer later, they're gonna start looking at the real thing, I mean it that kind of that kind of conservatism. It all that check that all aspects of life I mean people who coined the term rump drumsticks. We they didn't, they didn't use an anatomical term. I mean it went six I saw a picture of two women who were dragged off to a Patty wagon in a Patty wagon Chicago Land, because they weren't wearing their bathing suits that went right down to the ground and was crazy about that

is that photograph there wearing skirts and they have Bobby socks on and the only skin, it's exposed to their knee caps, and that was enough to get them to jail for that people go to trials and in in trials the testimony isn't expedited, so they can get the very best of reality. Tea be so speak and they can get it on unadulterated on edited, and so it's a trial because he tried L apply himself by saying that he was at a bordello dash We called the battle and some of the prostitutes up to testify and the just the distance of these, ladies having them dragged into the public into the daylight, would have been utterly scandalous, let alone what they had talked about and so for people. This was this very high drama and particularly the part of the community

particularly loved this, where the ladies, so I I've done a tremendous amount of writing about trials that take place in here uh say one thousand, eight hundred and eighty to nineteen, twenty and invariably you you're the line that the audience is made up of eighty percent when the the women in the audience of overflowed the idle of the seats in the courtroom. Or that you even hear all news reporters who are angry because they have to try to crane their necks to see over the women who were sitting there with their big brimmed hats on so. Go away, as you mentioned from the preliminary hearing, you've got 'cause of all of these facets and what makes this case even more interesting to people is the board double aspect and the mattress. I asked Such an attitude, which he was really really popular fellow in very well let's.

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the trial of basically, you call it trial of the century. The anticipated interest in this trial never mind from the preliminary. It continue to the actual trial. You say with all the people that were anticipating this, this specially the women. But let's talk about what the prosecution who put the prosecution is and talk about. The defense, which is an attorney named bark works, work work. Work in Parkinson's, I believe, is the prosecuting attorney tourney: sorry, it right back, actually looking for so they're, both well known lawyers in their area. Both of them played a role in the crouch case. They would go on to you. I parkins would go on to become a judge, really well known, judge and far

work would go on to become of all member a believer from Michigan House of Representatives. So we're talking about some pretty good legal minds here and Parkinson was and is a pretty good case. Eight, yet motive. He it means opportunity and he had some forensic evidence and he always preceded on what they would call the mercenary motives, and that was Robert Irving Latimer killed his mother for no other reason than to stay clear of that and to order her money so that he could pay off his other debts and continue to do live the life of Riley. If you will do what he wants to do in Detroit. Spark works at a little bit harder job. Barkworth had to try to explain how long the world is. Quiet had come to be in in Jackson, at the same time that the crime was taking place. Why you lied about it in the first place and tried the best to try to keep her client out of that better out of that house. At the time, and

this- is where we get into into a woman named Trixie Beatrice Leroux what's Google's real name- and she was Essentia held up as his alibi, except no one could find her and I think she might have headed West, and they perhaps change names, but one thing is certain: she never made an appearance at the trial and interesting is that the anticipated women who knew Latimer anticipated that he was going to try to pull one of them in as an alibi, and there were several reputations. I think that were removed as a result of the relationship two two unknown relay, because he was looking for somebody who could be convenient alternately. You pick

create an interesting scenario because of where, where is Beatrice, did she existed should not exist? You Jesus that suited them only it's got a fascinating story in a kind of a set. Fast needs some story. Really you talk about. Meanwhile, at the same time, this is going on there's a dynamic in terms of in the courts and in the public and not forced to and read the media in terms of the death penalty. Bill. Explain that Michigan is a state, doesn't have hasn't, had the death penalty for state crimes, the last man Hank for state coins in Michigan, tearless Michigan territory in the 1830s, is nameless students in and she was a tavern owner who slugged is why he came home drunk one night, slug his wife, because she wouldn't bring with them. She fell back her head died, skull, fracture eyes

and he was sentenced to death, and no one wanted to hang you. So the hanging was gone by procedure was done, a fellow tavern owner and analog the arrival of Steven as the story goes, was a bit of But he was a real soft spoken in eloquent man on the scaffold he got up and said prayer, and then he him and if beautiful love and pull in the crowd, even those who were pro death penalty in that instant turned against it. It, the state of Michigan, came into being one of the first things that the legislators did was ban the death penalty for state crimes. Now I have to clarify that. There have been people who then put a and currently put on death row and even executed for firms that occured with in Michigan's borders, but they would be crimes that were done in territory, overseen by the federal government. So

there is an individual on death row in Terre haute Indiana today for a crime that was it invents. The national forest, which is the part where the crime was committed, is overseen by the federal government but state, because we don't have one now over over the course of our history. Hi that the doctor He comes up from time to time in debate usually is triggered by some type of some type of really the crime, were series of crying you're cry, wait: Latimer and his crime and a crime of a fellow named Estes Tanto, basically led to a very vigorous debate. Is the weather. A death penalty should be enacted in the state of Michigan, and it came very close to passing, what a lot of people don't know when it. When I speak about this, it's kind of fascinating there, but they don't know this is that that death penalty bill that was triggered by the Matricide uh

was going to involve three different pipes of executions one would have been hanging which would have made Michigan consistent with the other states at the time hanging being of penalty, that was the most common electrocution electric chair. It started to to be installed in the state prisons around the country in the third one was. The key is. They were gonna, bring it to your team to Michigan and be had at people as the as the ultimate punishment, and now we've been inspired by the crimes of what

Obviously it didn't get past, but every now and again through our history, every dozen or so years it comes up again. Think Latimer inspired three different conversations about the death penalty and some of them got to be very, very, very close, very close in voting part of one of the second instances that he influenced the talk. I think bark worked with one of the voters against it and the problem we had was they didn't want to execute people who are convicted solely Uncirc sexual of and certainly had might Latimer, because Latimer was convicted on circumstantial evidence now, while that sounds really made some really bad in the twenty first century. At the time, I think that was considered all not to watch problematic because they didn't have the type of forensic science

we have today, so they couldn't conceive of something like a dna match or even a fingerprint. So a lot of the evidence in murder trials in the case was in fact circumstantial. Let's get to this, you call it the theater, absurd. We're talking about April, one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine you talk about the things that were is that this at this trial, one of the most- I guess, visual things was the appearance of MRS Joy Hannah Young behind her nephew. This is your nephew at trial. Tell us this little bit about her appearance and, as you write so the things that happen that that also talk of his demeanor at trial. Irving Latimer's demeanor at trial was odd. I mean he

his affect was off just like his affect to be off when he when he gave his alibi and when he first came to his house with and talk to boil and and share of Winnie about where he was, and yet they want to see his mom's body. His aspects was off like that too. I spent a lot of time reading the newspapers if he was a man that didn't have a care in the world, now He either was had convinced himself that he was going to get out of it or he really didn't don't care or understand the gravity of it, and that seemed completely added in different two everybody in the courtroom? Who is sort of expected him to be be? Maybe tearful about the fact that his mother was man shot? no, I actually think about about Ernie Latimer does affect is when he who's in jail. He asked to he's.

Completely indifferent about his mother being being done and he asked to be let out to go to her funeral and they believe. If they do, they will get a lot of gold to his mother. Cheryl Ann key at the last minute change his mind and they thought Basically, what he was trying to do was trying to drum up some support, looking to be devastated by his mother is lost, but when they actually called his bluff and said, ok will escort you to the funeral. He didn't go so part of the theater of the absurd is entire demeanor and in this entire play, if you will this it's kind of a tragic comedy. You talk about the right in the Madame Pinkerton into in the courtroom and then, of course, helped out the media and the public. But what did she bring in terms of it is for the prosecution, or was she effective for the defense, which was she there for

I think that in the long run she probably was not affected at all. I think that she was brought in basically to say that she had known Latimer and that he had been at her her establishment, but had left at a certain pier time and here's where we get to the train timetables. He left in a certain period time Detroit, and it was enough for him to get back to the hotel and then get to the train and get the Jackson. So if he attempted at one point in time to alibi herself by saying that he was there, but I I think that it her presents really really harmed him and it wasn't just in that way. It was proof that she knew him that he was a known associate of for well known, Bravo owner and that he had run up. You know he he spent a lot of time. There I mean in order to be intimately associated with him. He would have had to spend time there, and that is

I think for the community who wanted to indemnify him who are convinced of his good boy image. This was like pulling back the curtain to see the person really thank. The real Robert V Latimer and a guy who is intimately associated not just with Madame Pinkerton but her what they would have in. He said that I'm not just one of them, but several them. He had spent time in a row. He had spent money in her problem and that proved that he had run up debts. He was only way womanizer and that he was intimately associated with the red Light district, and I think that just kind of just help make Parkinsons motives come come the life at the face on it, because Parkinson the whole time his case was pretty Robert Irving Latimer Burger, his mother, a guitar.

B to acquire money so that he could continue to do these types of headaches. So I think that what ever the purpose of her going to the state and was it was devastating for Robert. That was the first. Every move sets. Bark did on behalf of Latimer in terms of trying to find an alibi, witness someone that he was with. There was a couple attempts and there was somebody that they found. That was on a a that. They took an affidavit. Tell us briefly about these attempts and what is made of them

I think, first of all, I think that Latimer probably was stringing a route along his lawyer. I do not think this was a situation where park were knew the truth that Latimer confessed to him and he was grabbing at straws reaching for straws. I think that he was actually quite frustrated with this continually evolving story. The latter myrtle but as a defense attorney and it very good boy. Are you also understand that he's gotta do this best to try to prepare defense in so he goes any very few people. I think laterally brought up a number of names with people who would give him an alibi, and so he goes to Detroit. We use this woman, as you mentioned, that was on her deathbed and, of course, she said that she wasn't even home at the time he came knocking she was she I was with a friend and at that exact

serious time, it's kind of fascinating about this, though, is I wonder how truthful she really was. I mean he was a bit of a virus for anybody at this point time. Anybody to be associated with him was going to have a reputation killed Especially given the fact of how people were in the area with the way they handled sexuality and things like that, so respectable woman Detroit as with a very good looking young man, maybe she's, even within that night, then she's, even with him earlier in the night, see I can't say it publicly. She not gonna, probably even say it in after date, so I think that there's a little bit of wiggle room a little bit of reasonable doubt to suspect that she and maybe several other

new him in I mean like in the biblical sense, knew him and at this point in time, wanted to just distance themselves as best as they can, and he gonna wonder whether one of them actually was with him that night or part of that night doesn't mean he didn't do. It does I mean he didn't have time to speak back to Jackson, but he certainly knew these people. He just just pick them out of a hat and so part part of the interesting part of my Reese. Was trying to reconstruct Latimer's little black boy. Look, if you will in an era where people didn't want to talk about this type of thing. It was really really really trick so anyway, that's what that was all about Mark was trying to find. Trying to find witnesses that I think his his rather troublesome quiet was springing up is a desperate attempt to try to get him lot of Jackson

or at least away from the house at the time the murder occurred. You talk about Latimer again, This is rare in a core in a murder trial that he took the stand. What was his demeanor and tell us what some of the highlights of moments at trial when he testified. I think that some of the highlights of the trial were some of the back and forth with the band that thought Cross examined him. I think that would probably be if there was a climactic moment in the trial. That would probably be it was Parkinson second Cheer and he had characterized. Latimer is being one of the swiftest sliced criminals he had ever come across and he was just chomping at the bit.

Try to poke holes in Latimer story, and I think that that did have testimony is probably the most fast thing and they get is Is this idea that he was hunting for this woman that no one was able to locate? No one was able to finally was nowhere in sight. The sheer lunacy is, the idea of the in ability is the idea that he had taken the train to find her and just happened to be in Jackson, at the exact same time that his mother was bird. He was using this as a defense and, of course, you, the ever revolving story that he first said he had been in the Griswold Hotel and he hadn't been in the hotel, and What, when you research cases like this, this is where newspaper, can really be a vital aspect of the research, because what happens too often is the trial trance if you can even find them marchers, just QA generally how the are q answer

A is, but the real we get to the ass. You go to the reporters who sat in on the testimony, and this is where you can hear the voices. The toll, so the lawyer loses, loses temper and he raises his told that stuff something that's going to come through the trial transcript. That comes through the news paper articles. So on a side note, the real key is a researcher is to try to find the most accurate newspaper articles in the best way to do that in an era where they sensationalized everything is declined to trial, transcript and compare the two. So you become, as a researcher very much like a detective, very. Interesting, you talk about this. A cross examination by Parkinson's, a partner, Conley look only yeah, and he did when he basically Hacks away at every bit of this

alibi, and also he asked some things like. How did you cut your thumb? Then? He can't quite really answer any. Like you say is champion. The bit to really cross examining hard, and you say that he said that I don't recollect two hundred and sixty nine times in that exchange. Yeah your talk about, though they also do show, was psychopathology here. You also talk about a woman that he sees in the courtroom. Tell us about that: yeah, okay, so at one point: five Latimer, all a pretty a pretty lady who happen to call me watch the trial and he makes a remark about how pretty she is and so what what the cycle Mythology is really affect again is really off because here's a guy who is on trial for

his life, because you know the death penalty, but he's on trial for life in prison, for the murder of his mother is rotation is destroyed, basically and However, the ladies man, his mind is focused on our military id who we'd like to meet new date, and I think that in to a certain degree, actually under the impression that he was going to beat this thing and be able to go all in end date. Like that, again, all n h e either he's completely fool themselves. Or you have an individual who was a real break with the idea of what reality is now in some Elsa, particularly in later trial, say twenty years they that you would suspect that that might be a that might be a put on that might be a strategy and to try to prove that he is insane or mentally the mentally deficient in a way. That would not make him culpable for a crime, but I don't know if that's the case, I

that's the real Robert Irving Lauterberg that you're, seeing there a man who is so utterly self centered somebody who is sold the world would be narcissistic. I think that he's only interested in in the things that interest him at that moment and though that would be a characteristic of what we call a socio path today. I believe, and that that's kind of a fascinating question was Robert Irving Latimer a socio path. They would, of course, have terms like that it wouldn't apply them. So for me to talk, but can be a socio path is a little bit like being a Monday morning. Quarterback. If you look at the characteristics, somebody who lies and lies really well, somebody who is narcissistic all sexually unit in uninhibited. These are all characteristics of the of that that condition, So it's really fascinating. I think timely at one point in time was so involved so.

Emotionally invested in that cross examination that he had. But his end of the table to the point where it looks red like steak, so you could imagine the situation in the courtroom where Andrea away Robbery, Robert Everytime time, whether I don't recall he anger anger at the point where he's just bashing his hands on the table on the lawyers table, to make appointment into the table is Hoysala horse, and is he and is red. It looks like hamburger and he's heard- I don't recall two hundred and sixty nine also taught both the flippant attitude by Latimer and that he's reading a newspaper and even when he sent in store the verdict, is coming down. Part me he's he's again turning to read a paper but, as you say, he's crying, behind that newspaper, tell us about the predict and how long it took for the jury to determine that verdict. I believe that the verdict

you know I don't remember now off and how long it took to take it to the to make the verdict. I'd have to go back and look at the book. You just want a minute I'll twenty nine? I thought it was. I thought it was a really really quick for it. I Jack Del remember what happened. Was people left the courthouse, be They assume that it was going to be a lengthy verdant, a lengthy deliberations I should say, and they had set it down down the street to go, get dinner. There dinner. They were checked into various restaurants and hotel cast days and then we're going to have dinner and all of a sudden they have dropped. Therefore, can there spoons going back to the courthouse, because, because the verdict, I'm in so soon- and I think, will crowd into the courtroom to the point where I think that the lawyers have to crawl through the windows, because there was with so much interest in what was going to what was going to take place and sure enough? They they sided with the prosecution,

slam: the cell door lab or life in prison at hard labor. Now you would think that this story, as you write this, actually the story. This is yesterday's news, but this story is still very, very big and you talk about that. Right after this sentence, that by MID may there's this Latimer case becomes a headline exhibit in the chamber of horrors Detroit's Wonderland Theater, we say vaudeville performances, circus acts, freak shows and the most gases crimes of the era were preserved for posterity in wax. Very trusting now tell us about Latimer stay in prison. Just briefly what happens as he goes to prison. Well, the the previous prison administration was draconian in their treatment of prisoners. They use the whipping post. They had something called

riding a horse where they had like a like a hobby works with that with the fact that came to a halt like a square like back that they meet Chris or sit on so the two. Did people really harshly an when that prison administration came to an ant the next incoming award and was a little bit too loose with the criminals and So prisoners were allowed privileges an they had a lax administration that either turned a blind eye or were just negligent on the things that prisoners were bringing in. And what do you do with a pharmacist when bees behind bars? Why eleven sell medicines to the other inmates, of course, as the Latimer started, the pedal patent medicines to the other inmates that he was allowed to freely bring into the prison? How? How do you want me to go with what happens next. Well. Needless to say that he is not content with this

Tis filed appeals. The appeals don't work, but needless to say, he doesn't consider. It doesn't want to stay in So he hatches a plan to escape. Yeah. I will tell us what batches yeah go ahead. Sorry no go ahead. He walks up a batch of of proof, IC acid, which is Sunday night, and he prepares some spiked lemonade for a cup. First of all, and his plan is is to poison them and in in suing commotion, open up some of the cells and for Jackson with a bunch of inmates to basically covers on the skate and just basically does appear gently into that good night. But it goes wrong because one of the keepers he poisons, drops a whole bunch of fishes as he collapsed onto the floor and that alarms the other keepers

and Latimer has to sort of do inaudible, never gets to release the rest of the inmates, but he does get out of the prison and his grand escape, which ultimately cost the life of one of the keepers lasted about two days. I believe yeah from that escape with the death of one of the keepers, the jailers. What is now the response from the media and from the public? And then what is response towards this? As you say, lackadaisical attitude of this warden Davis at the Jackson, prison? Okay, so that the person started. The topic not quite not be how it handled allowing prisoners to bring stuff in from the outside.

The prison clerk at all, which other people got in trouble, as a couple of were actually tried all for college. For for negligence, the first letter is concerned he's put into a solitary cell for quite some time, I think laws, Please put into a solid Terry cell. The media calls for another discussion about the death penalty in this time. I think that the death penalty cases that they the death penalty, if all they wanted in act, would include cases of inmates who kill personal personal, so the media, now all the sudden, Robert Irving, Latimer, because front page news again. This is quite rare. I mean this is not something that, in the state of new You can happen a lot, an inmate. Well, it never happened, never happened just personally anywhere. I mean think about think about this, and in acquiring a deadly poison sign later using it to poison to prison officials. It's really kind of

kind of a bizarre shocking case when you think about it, yeah. Yes, it changed everything with this. This escape in the murder of these two guards. Now we got to talk about. When we mentioned in the introduction, we talk about the most dangerous inmate to free man. So let's just sort of jump ahead here how on earth and how many years does it take for this person and under what conditions in terms of how is that they're able to let this person out how many years does it take so he goes in an one thousand, eight hundred and eighty nine. I believe the trials may or the verdict of May and he comes out one thousand eight hundred and thirty five I wanna see and so he's in for three thousand five hundred and forty six years. I believe that the

I'm sure that I'm that life in prison was essentially a twenty year prison sentence with the possibility of parole. But what changed things for Latimer were two factors that he only emerged- one car the other one recovered and actually lined up on trial himself for negligence that things that caused him to be rejected for parole, slash pardoned by governor after governor after governor after governor were peace actors, the murder of of the keeper in the matricide now what's interesting about this, is these governors had part all kinds of murder? male and female over the years. It was a governor name, Woodbridge Nation, fair record for the number burns and parole then gave around Christmas one thousand nine hundred and sixteen and Latimer was not one of them and the reason that most people believe

was the natural side. It was the nature even more sold in the murder of Cooper George. It was the matricide itself with such an appalling crime. They just simply didn't want to let him well, it got to be so out of hand, so so the trusted cloud review outside it because they had let out other people who had murdered murder people in sometimes less than ten years, sometimes one thousand and fifteen years they elect about glad immersed improvement. Forty six year. Why? Because of the nature of this, the mattress on it? So it lasts. He. He heard us some crusaders that were on his side and the Kerr tries to prison sentence as a political crime, eventually after pushing pushing pushing pushing pushing Robert Irving Latimer was let out, but he was old old man inside note about his story. Is that when he was let out

she was the only inmate left in the Jackson, state penitentiary, they'd opened up a new facility, and he didn't wanna move, so I want to be in the old, effective column, the warden of the old prison, and he basically, get free use of the ground. You could come and go when he wanted to. How bizarre is that he's a he's? A lifer undergarden he's free to come and go in the prison he wants to became very adept at landscaping around the prison, but not a free meant, not till one thousand nine hundred and thirty five. You right and I think it's fitting that this institute. Wise person spent forty six years that kept protesting his innocence in this. That when he was released, he reached

to those unlikely people to help him. What was his state of affairs once he was released. I say for the early yeah, he was essentially impoverished, and he didn't die? He didn't really know anybody and he was quite old and I think that there were a couple of people, these crusaders, that were basically prison reformers, but I don't think he knew them really well and in some of his long term champion, set preceded him in death, so Rob Irving. Rapper was kinda destitute. I have some options. I think he very briefly went to work for Ford Motor Company. He did get a chance to fly a plane for the first time and he took a trip, but this is the height of the great depression, one thousand nine hundred and thirty five, and so he fell in. You are a state of utter despair. You want the whole works on a park. Bench yeah very interesting.

I want to work, thank you very much for coming on and talking about partible macro side, Robert Irving, Latimer from Michigan's most dangerous and made two free man for those of my Want to check this out, can you tell us if you have a facebook page website or how they might find out more about this incredible case Yes, the publisher is Mcfarland and Mcfarland has a page devoted to Of course it is for sale in Amazon, Barnes, noble, noble, I believe, has for sale. Online of people can contact me through my website. At W W W W told a dot com, they can find information about my various publications and my speaking schedule to speak

around the state. I also run a blog called dark corners of history where people can go if they want to trade for realm. The darker corners of history and style flashlight in there and see what they can see. Absolutely sounds great. I want to thank you very much for this center, Tobin, open the thank you very much for this and you have a great evening good night. Then. So much for having me this evening. Thank you good night. All, hello I've got to tell you about this cool show I discovered called small Business Revolution main street. It's a business makeover show with tons of awesome advice. What I love about it is they do it all with heart, not the hyped up drama of those other shows, we've all seen type, Clinton the renovation guy he's on it in Amanda Brinkman. This marketing group from deluxe definitely check it out. You can watch it on Hulu, prime or small business revolution, DOT, Org

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