Paul, is finally here, and so is only these big fall sale get thousands of styles from his five bucks. All your fall. Favorites are on sale. Now, layer, up with five dollar teas and ten dollar long, sleeve tees for the whole family and stock up on sweaters and dresses for just fifteen dollars, plus save even more with up to seventy five percent off clearance. Styles, don't miss out hurry in for thousands of styles from just five bucks now it'll, maybe an old baby dot com valid ten fifteen to ten twenty five select styles online Paul is finally here, and so is only these big fall sale get thousands of styles from his five bucks. All your fall. Favorites are on sale, now, layer up with five dollar teas and ten dollar long, sleeve tees for the whole family and stock up on sweaters and dresses for just fifteen dollars, plus save even more with up to seventy five percent off clearance. Styles, don't miss out hurry in for thousands of styles from just five bucks now it'll, maybe an old baby dot com balance. Ten fifteen to ten twenty five select styles online law fall is finally here, and so is only these big fall sale. Thousands of styles from his five bucks, all your fall favorites are on sale. Now, layer, up with five dollar teas and ten dollar long, sleeve tees for the whole family and stock up on sweaters and dresses for just fifteen dollars, plus save even more with up to seventy five percent off clearance. Styles, don't miss out hurry in for thousands of styles from just five bucks now it'll, maybe an old baby dot com balance. Ten fifteen to ten twenty five select styles on right. It's Jamie progresses! Number! One number two employee leave a message at that: hey Jamie! It's me Jamie! This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your acappella group, Matt Harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean you're, the guy, always helping people find coverage options with the name, your price tool. It should be you given me the pep talk now get out there hit that high note and take Matt Harmony all the way to nationals this year.

Progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates pricing coverage match limited by state law You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, the 20th anniversary of the death of joy, John Benet Ramsey, is in December two thousand and sixteen

Steven Cingular's, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine book about the murder of Jon Benet explored the realm of child exploitation and its connection to the crime in August. Two thousand and sixteen singular released. An updated addition of presumed guilty investigate of Jon Benet Ramsey case the media and the culture. Pornography on Amazon, Kindle The examines why the case still hasn't been solved and the important developments over the past, so fifteen years Steven we interviewed by sharp entertainment for a lifetime documentary on the murder to be aired on Saturday evening November, fifth, two thousand and sixteen the program will immediately follow a lifetime docu drama on the case, One thousand nine hundred and ninety nine examination of the Jon Benet Ramsey case was the only book to suggest something other than the two conventional scenarios that one of Ramseys killed the child or an inch who did it presumed guilty, broaden the discussion

to include the involvement of child pornography child exploit asian surrounding the murder. The case for means a world class conundrum, the murder of Jon Benet is the only example in the annals of american homicide. Were a body in a ransom were found in the same location in the world of two there was absolute truth and there is affective truth, since one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine enough has happened to give us a much fuller sense of the effective truth of Jon Benet's death in a much clearer idea why the case hasn't been solved. The book that we're featuring the sea, thing is presumed guilty. An investigation of the g Jonbenet Ramsey case the media and the culture of pornography with my special guest journalist and author Steven Single welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing this interview. Steven singular. Thank you very much for having me down thanks. This is, of course,

on everyone's mind. It captivated the world back in now, one thousand eight hundred and ninety six, and it see seems to have done it again. On the 20th anniversary, with every television station network, news magazine, everybody included in this. You were there back in at that time, and you brought us this book presumed guilty and now the new addition. I just spoke to you briefly before the program, Anne I alluded to it in the introduction. Tell us just a little bit again. You had mentioned that it wasn't so good for you, but tell just a little bit before we get right into presumed guilty about that interview. That I had mentioned in the introduction well lifetime did a docu dramas, you say, and then it was followed by a two hour, actual documentary on the case, and there were a few scientific

things in that show that I thought were very good that we might touch upon later. But the real thrust It was that it was about Patsy Ramsey and you know where she a killer or a victim. An my whole involvement in this case has been a trend, widen it beyond the Ramsey family and beyond the intruder theory. So from my pay- if you, if there was very little new information in that realm. That came out of it and it didn't, I think, there's a bigger story here that hasn't been talked about very much. Almost all of these shows and we've seen you know, one right after the other sense early September has basically focused on this paradigm that everyone knows either Ramsey's. Did it or an inch he came in the house and did it, and I suggested in the book in nineteen ninety nine that there's a whole lot of space between those two things that it doesn't have to be.

An either or situation- and I took quite to eat. For that, when I, when I did it and went in and trying to talk about, child pornography, sort of the underbelly of the child, beauty pageant circuit and all of that came out in nineteen. Ninety nine, just so people know I was on an m MSNBC show not long after it came out in the summer of ninety nine, and I was at a studio in Denver. There was somebody else in Denver who was at another studio, who is a columnist for the Denver Post and he picked up the book and dropped into a trash can on live national television. At that, I'm not saying that to elicit sympathy. It didn't make any difference to Maine, but it shows you how difficult eat back then and to some extent today it has been for

people even to consider an alternative idea, and then what? And this is an unsolved case- you know it's not like. We have the answers in front of us. So that's just an indication of of the difficulty of sort of trying to break through the facade of this, case and get underneath the surface. Now you talk about early in the book that, since one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven yourself in your wife, Joyce have been just one piece Of a civilian murder investigation that's reached across America and countless people involved why it's their business, incredible civilian murder, investigation. While I think, of course, the rise of the internet, FED that where you could have you know everyone linked through that an much of the ever So at least pieces of the evidence could come out into the public realm and

I'm starting right in nineteen. Ninety seven people were creating websites around this and, as the case continued not to be solved, you know there was more and more impetus to get more information out there, maybe help law enforcement or try to do something to penetrate this case, I mean, after all, to repeat myself. It's twenty years later and in many ways the case, the case itself is never advanced one inch. Now there are developments around it that that have advance or should have advanced it. But it's just built for people to floor and to get involved in and offer up their theories and to do all those things we've been contacted by people from Oregon to Florida to New York to Texas I mean an it's there's just an internationally Australia, Europe, oh yeah there. There is interest in trying to figure out what Happ now, throughout this book,

unlike some true crime books are most true crime books. You are in extra Probably involve throughout this entire book, speaking with private investigators police, the Da Hunter, the new Da Garnett after afterwards so literally friends of Jon, Benet, Ramsey and Patsy. Or an Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey, so there incredible access With that in mind, what is the when you talk about that that gap in between the two scenarios. Let's go back right too that December twenty six, as you do to explain what was going on between with the scenario of boulder police, the Denver Post

this department, the FBI, everybody involved here that created a compromise sick weisheng right from the very beginning, as you talk about talk about December twenty six, but also talk about the reality of the situation with the police department, the FBI Denver PA these and the da all at the same time. Well, there Where is December 26th, and so that means that it was the holiday season. The boulder police department is understaffed. They get not one murder a year in boulder and is police department. It will tell you in larger cities, if you'd don't do homicides. Very often you don't do them very well or kidnappings. Boulder had never seen a case like this that occured on December twenty six, so there were as many people there to work it, and Everyone knows that mistakes were made at the very beginning. The most outstanding mean

take to me is, and I felt that again watching the lifetime show on Saturday was that the police searched the house initially, which is what you're supposed to do. Why they would not have gone into. Every room is an absolute mystery to me because they did not go into the so called wine cellar in the basement, where the body was found about six hundred or seven hours later. So you know, if that is happened, you would have had a much more the pristine, In this situation there in terms of evidence, people are calling it a crime scene. I'm I'm not going to use that term for reasons it might become clear later on, but so they, it was one angle of it. The district attorney Alex Hunter was in Hawaii when this happened on vacation over the. Holiday season? So he wasn't there to sort of help manage it which is another problem. But what

to really go back to where you were saying about my involvement in my wife's involvement is that in the first weeks of January nineteen seven, which is to say a couple weeks after the body was found. We were invited to go to a television station in Denver where a report they had told us that a hacker was going to be doing some things on a computer that evening, and so we went there, and everyone has to remember. This is early one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven. The internet is quite young. It's very young in terms of law, enforcement's, sort of understanding how crimes would be committed using the internet, all kinds of crimes. So what we saw that evening was absolutely shocking. This guy took us into child pornography sites flights were there were video and stills of children who were tide up children who had things around their wrists around their necks.

As we know, if you, when you look at the crime scene with Jon Benet, that's exactly what you saw. You saw something around your neck and a wrist. You saw that she had been strangled, and this was by far the most evocative things. Usually that connect into the crime I mean, and then you had the realization that all of these people who are engaged in these activities were hooked up with one another via the internet, so the chances of getting caught doing it, and all of that that had been relevant to child pornography investigations earlier didn't apply in this realm, the ban, I'm doing the hacking typed in the word Jon Benet there was a feeding frenzy of people just pouring in saying I want pictures of her. I want pictures of her that are nude or risque. I want pictures of her when she's dead, I mean, and it was absolutely A revelation to me, because I didn't know all of these things:

is that were going on, and these were kids girls who were five hundred and sixty seven years old, the same ages dominate so you sort of file that away and go well. Would there be any connection whatsoever between this death in boulder and this kind of flotation through visual images. I this sort of let it ride. You know right there, but we began talking to pageant mothers at that in this area. Right after that- and they told us the same story over and over again- and the story was about Jon Benet's primary pageant photographer, who they all knew well, they all had long standing relationships with and they all thought he was a good guy. In the aftermath of the murder. He called them all up in the middle of the night. He was screaming. He was crying. He was saying I did not kill Jon Benet, I did not kill Jon Benet and nobody could figure out why he was behaving this way because you know he

not being looked at as a suspect, so we gather information from the pageant mothers who told us that these pageants, did draw in shady characters. There were judges, there were photographers, there were others who were considered danger, and they should not be there and in various cases they were told to leave the premises- I mean it. This is sort of a natural magnet for people who are interested in that sort of thing. So we had gathered quite a lot of information at one hundred days, went by there was in our rest. In the case, every week every day on talk radio is, there will be an arrest today, one of the Ramseys will be arrested. Nothing happened so so I had observed, Alex Hunter, the district attorney through his various television variances and all that I thought he seemed like an interesting man like thoughtful and

not exactly the image of the hard nosed district attorney. So I did. I did call him an we had a. Versation and he said, come on into my office and let's discuss all of this, so I told him story that I've just laid out here and I, he was very taken with an and realize that the boulder police as most everyone knows, were fixed dated right on the Ramsey family, and there was this much broader potential criminal area around the child that really wasn't being looked at. He didn't know anything about this photographer. He didn't know what the pageant mothers were saying. He was unaware of that. Whole thing in the boulder police had not really looked into it either. So that was really the starting place of basically asking the question: is

case about something more than a mother killing your child because she wets the bed. Let's go back to the Little Bit and we'll come back to to the more further examination of this child porn angle and and examinations you do by investigating, numerous photographers and other people involved with the pageants themselves. But let's, let's talk about the crime scene itself, because I think a lot of people are really confused. As to how you come to this. If we don't explain this, how you come to this conclusion of this. Third scenario where it can't it doesn't have to be that the Ramseys were completely guilty and it doesn't have to be the the intruder was completely guilty without the Ramseys being with the Ramsey being completely innocent? So tell us what exactly was found at that crime scene that also

lead. You alluded to a little bit in the terms of the photos that you saw that were related and connected. It seemed to the kind of the kind of staging that Jon Benet had been posed under. So you look at the crime scene itself, there's duct tape on girls mouth. It cannot be sourced anything in the house. There's fiber evidence on the body that can't be sourced to anything in the house. The material in the garage, with the exception of the little wooden handle, can't be sourced. That's a nylon type of twine. Can't be sourced anything in the house and then the the stun gun marks on her neck, which are became, are very evident. Their pictures of her taken about four Talk in the afternoon on Christmas day, where she's sitting in her living room, and you a very clear view of that side of her neck and then we look at the autopsy photo, which was taken the following day. There too

two very prominent burn marks that people who know a lot more about this, and I do have. I do. Benefit is the result of a stun gun. There's no sourcing of the stun gun in the house, and then you get to the dna evidence which is taking a long time to develop in his a story in and of itself. The one piece Information that came out of the lifetime show in a very clear way for me. Was that We know that there was DNA left in the child's pants and that and that there are a couple of samples of the argument against that is, that is that that belonging to the perpetrator is it that could have just come there in the manufacturing of the underpants? In other words, some worker in Asia just leaves their dna in there, and then you find it though so that's been, around a lot

it's a development of what they called touch dna, which is a much more sophisticated form of dna which has been developed more in this. You know, after two thousand, the articles of clothing were sent to what's called the Bode laboratory. An you touch dna? They they that if you took off the child's long Johns, not her underpants, better long Johns that you that it would be something left around the you know the seam of the long Johns on the child, so the look there and they found several. Examples of the same dna that DNA matches, what's in the underpants, the two things were manufactured in different locations. It's all consistent. Coming from one unidentified male source. I would suggest that fixed

mainly strong evidence of the person, It was involved with the child that night and we don't know who it belongs to so that Traders unknown, but For me, it was very clear explanation that you can't simply explain away all of this matching dna from manufacturing process? And I thought that was very important, so that's the crimes. And that that you're looking at you have a number of things that cannot be tide to anything. That's in that house, then you have, you know the ransom note and uh The question I always had was well. If an intruder did it very basic, question. Why would you leave a body and a ransom note? It just did that it doesn't make any sense. I mean you'd. Leave the ransom. Note, take the kid or if you're going to kill the kid, probably wouldn't leave a three page node. So, on the surface,

it told me is that this is a more complex case. Then it's generally being looked at so so I mean that's the sort of Evidon part of it that that that the police on. The district attorneys office were confronted with right from the beginning and that lays out. You know, as the case goes along I may be jumping ahead a little bit, but what I thought was very very, very interesting to me: is that there's been so much speculation about this ransom note- and maybe we should talk about the contents of that ransom note. But what I fascinating was that you state that about some of the contents one crucial content. That being that one hundred, eighteen thousand dollars bonus and again you're. Not I'm going to ask you if you can wood, something from that in that Patsy Ramsey did not. No of that one hundred and eighteen thousand dollar bonus. So could you tell us why the conference note,

someone brought in all kinds of handwriting analysis for this? So yeah and then again on the lifetime show when they showed her handwriting compared to the the writing. On the note it really did not look, although similar and an expert on there said that here's the basic thing that I'm suggesting and and to go back to nineteen ninety six through one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, when and we were doing this research. An involved, primarily with the district attorneys office, but also with private investigators in a little bit with the police department, I was so yes thing, and I think I'm the only person who was suggesting that there is something in between the Ramseys being totally guilty Ann or the Ramseys being totally innocent because an intruder did this not a popular opinion at that time. In nineteen? Ninety nine,

one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight Alex Hunter, ask a grand jury to sit down and look at all of the evidence in her testimony the grand jury set for thirteen month. That is an incredibly long period of time for grand jury to do this kind of work. It's usually three or four days. You indict somebody and you move on to the next thing, so that alone was extraordinary. After the thirteen months Alex Hunter, came out and said, I'm going to indict anybody and I'm going to seal the eighteen page document that the grand jury produced so we didn't know what is in those eighteen pages. Going forward and my assumption- and I was I was rather Sympathetic- Alex Hunter. I dealt with him quite a lot, but my assumption was. He he might might have or could have made the right decision by doing that, so

fourteen years past, its two thousand and thirteen October, two thousand and thirteen the boulder daily camera sued, the district attorneys office. It's not two district attorneys later to get that document release it's a public document. The public funds public does have the right to know A judge ordered that four paragraphs out of the eighteen pages would be made public. Just four paragraphs, this paragraph state very clearly at the ram these were to be indicted. According to the grand jury, for two things, there are two counts, counts foreign count. Seven, the first one is that they exposed their daughter to the circumstances that led to her death, child endangerment, the second one is that they help cover up a crime, not for MER they were not or grand jury which had low

Look at the evidence for thirteen months did not recommend that they be indicted for murder. So my point is that that is cisely in the middle of total guilt for total innocence, the people who studied the case more than anybody, the people who had access to all the evidence that people who heard testimony for thirteen months. Affectively came to the same conclusion that I was talking about in nineteen. Ninety nine that there there's more here than two options they gave that the District attorney, Alex Hunter, and he chose not to take their work and indict the Ramsey parents. Looking back now from twenty thirteen I I cannot stand why they were not indicted. I what it tells me is that he did not want to open up this case. An all

all of the elements that we've been talking about to public scrutiny, and they just wanted to bury it because the thing was sealed. It was supposed to be sealed forever. And it was only a lawsuit that brought that polite, So now you have four paragraph saying that both parents were indicted on those were recommended to be indicted on those two cats. So here's the next question. What's in the other fourteen pages is somebody else named in there? Are there other people involved in this? Why was the whole document released at it again, if you just think about it from a com, incense perspective. Why would you ask a grand jury ticket with all that trouble and then they come back and did exactly what they're supposed to do and then Newberry what they did? I'm suggesting that this is a bigger story then mom killing a kid for wetting the bed, an. I think, if you

look at boulders response since then, or in and around the whole thing you get exactly the same thing they don't want to prosecute. Just they don't want to go forward? Now? You talk about this cover up that it must be a cover up. And you examine and explore this culture this patch, entry again a little bit of snow so the phenomena, but you you know you detail this here so tell us a little bit what you found about the culture you talk to woman It's very very important story, PAM Griffin and she had worked with I've been a Ramsey, her daughter at three years old, had one a pageant self, so tell us about PAM, Griffith and the. Higher exploration, where you talk to photographers and find out about this incredible sub, called

Hamlet's very important, because PAM was not only a good friend of Patsy's but John women's pageant dresses. And so she was around them a great deal and she impact he just seemed to get along you know really well, so she was of all pageant mothers we spoke to. She was by far the most streetsmart and she would say things like. I instinct We would never let my daughter be alone with the photographer all the fatigue, you refer has to do is say: change from the blue dress into the red dress. While that's going take a picture and you have something you can sell and believe main goal. Going into that room with that hacker, you totally understood that there were people offering MA name for the photographs. There were people offering money for for pics These are offering pictures of their own children in exchange,

for photographs- and it was this marketplace that was flourishing underground, so she was very important and talking about the kinds of characters who, came around the pageant world that they to get rid of she had confrontations with several people and to told them that you know they just they, be there around the children and kind of opened that doorway an Patsy was hi did in her the day after the body was found it. It's a very dramatic seen it's December 27th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety six. The body was found the day before the Ramseys were not staying that house and had to go over and stay with a friend, some friends and patheon pen.

Number together all day, long and Patsy kept saying? Why did they do this to my child? Why did they do it to my child as opposed to anyone else, and it was we interviewed PAM nineteen years after the initial interview with her, and she was even more revealing about some of the things that were said that day. I'm not I'm not at liberty, for a variety of reasons. Talk about that right now, but there is an on going investigation into some of that. So she was a very critical person with Patsy at that time. The important part of that is that, He was interviewed by the police and by the grand jury, and I don't know what went on in the grand jury because at secret, but she was interviewed by the police They never ask her about the pageant world. They never ask her about pedophiles or photographers or any of that, the uh

saying they were interested in was the closest Patsy was an abusive mother and did she you know, did she abuse her children and so was ex extremely interesting to me that all this information that that we've sort of extracted from her, I think, could have been used by the boulder police to interview a lot of people and to learn a lot more about the culture that Germany was operating in and they never did it and again it's it's. It's the same thing: less restrict this to one family, one person and and narrow it down to that. That would be fine if the case had been solved, but obviously the case has never been and it's never advanced, and I think if you, if you look at the behavior of Alexander, which I just described and then in two thousand and eight another day. Search. Attorney. Mary Lacey looked at that

new DNA evidence, so we just talked about and she publicly cleared Ramseys of committing the murder. Why is strange and unusual. The Ramseys were not to be indicted for murder. That was never the charge that was on the table, It amazes me that you can have one show after another television as we seen CBS all the big names and they're, not talking about what is actually happened here, that the Ramseys were. In fact indicted for something other than murder were to be indicted, and the two district attorneys have gone out of their way to bury that to get rid of it. Why What's the motivation behind that, I would suggest that there were p pull in boulder. Some of them fairly high up places who were in logged in these kinds of illicit activities with children. We know one or two. We know someone in

particular who was very high up in the older Paris structure, who left town after this case moved abroad. We know of another gentleman who did the same. I'm saying he didn't leave the country, but he left the state and there's all kinds of evidence that more was going on around a child and around other children in boulder involving these kinds of activities? And I think that what happened here. Is that something went terribly drastically wrong and it had to be cover and that's exactly what the grand jury said that the Ramseys participated in the cover up. You talk about again, you would already spoken about this photographer named Simons. It was two photographers in particular that took photos of Jon Benet, and you also

talk about, and we haven't mentioned again, it's quite shocking for people to see the sexualization of these children, but also that you talk about there being some coaches and make up and push up bra pause or to make these children look like they had. Cleavage and Jon Benet and Patsy. Whether patchy was diluted in her quest that to get her. Order to be this Miss America that she never became? You also talk about Patti Griffith, talking or pardon me another woman talking about this particular photographer asking for her daughter to pose nude yeah tell us. Little bit more about I knew there was able to go over these these right. There was more than anecdotal evidence that that some of the others. Talked about that. You know. If the child is photographed nude, I can

You know I can promote that child more easily. I can you know get her further up the ladder in the pageant world. There were stories about. If, if the, if the mothers would have sex with the photographers, they can promote the kids more so that it was It was not an entirely innocent environment and PAM. Is the one who really laid that out so, yes, I mean the trailer are being sexualized the children, all the things you talked about it died here, teeth eyes, push up bras the whole bit and guess who would be attracted to that kind of thing well people for a list of the attractive for sexual purposes to children and begin to sort of point out. The obvious here, but it hasn't been obvious in this case- is that there was no criminal history.

Of any kind whatsoever within the Ramsey family. There was it one example where somebody came forward and said: I saw Patsy hit I saw Passi yell at Jon, Benet or Burke or Anyone in the family, none of it existed I've written three books about women who've committed murders, an in eh every case. There's a pathology the behind the crime that eventually surface in one way or another, and you learn that people are either through mental problems or pressures of a different kind or whatever it comes out. There's a logic behind why a woman it wasn't killed. Somebody none of it applies in this case. Absolutely none of it, and so the next question becomes What is the criminal activity

surrounding this case? Where is the natural place to look, and that is in the car? names, people who would be attracted to childlike dominate in the pen. Agent world in the world of photography in the world in boulder where people were doing illicit things with children. There are cases that were prosecuted their cases that Not prosecuted around this there's a whole round there that has affected. We've been ignored and we It came right up to the edge of prosecuting this case and figuring out what happened, which the district attorney not only the right but the obligation to do they backed off they seal the file and they say public has no right to know any of this. The public spent two million dollars on the Jon Benet Ramsey investigate that's in the early years. I don't know what it is since then, but in the first two

two three years, I suggest probably has the right to know, and this particular case, because I'm suggesting other children were exposed to the same thing and maybe some of the same people and that's the real story to me at this point not so much who killed her. I think the dna would tell you that, but why can't the case be solved? Why is there have been a road block every single time. Someone has tried effectively to to penetrate the case and solve it. With this civilian organization, this investigation that you were apart of because every time as you chronicle in the book, every time you go to a private investigator. Weather invited you give much more information than you back, and you ask questions that seem to their response. The response is elicited seems to be that

They really aren't. Looking at that child pornography angle, they're, not looking at anything other than what they were told. It seems to look for and then it like. You say when it seems like there might be a revelation or breakthrough their silence rat lad. How you found out about something what I found was the most horrific part of this book. A thing to imagine is Mister White John Ramsey's friend the Christmas day that they spend over there and then the rumor, that you hear the story that you hear about Santa Claus- and a special meeting with Jon Benet right. The Germany told at least three people that she was to have a secret meeting with Santa Claus on Christmas night. She told and neighbor woman this and then

every woman said to her dominate. You're mistaken Santa Claus comes on Christmas Eve. Everybody knows that and John and they said no it's Christmas night now, as we all know, the murder occurs on Christmas night, there's The story where, where Germany and her family are at the white family on Christmas night and it's at the the end of the book and germinate tells her mother, I'm going to have a meeting with the secret Santa Ann Patty searched Aqu, question her about this in Germany, runs off and never for questions her about that again, because she's dead within the next few hours. So I believe that if your look sing for the source of the unidentified DNA. The Fisk connection to a secret Santa Claus, and it's an again. I want to clarify for people who are familiar with the case. I'm not talking about this Santa Claus who came to the ram

these house on December 23rd that year Bill Mcreynolds that someone else he was cleared by the police and I think he should have been this- is something else. She mentioned this. Not to her mother, she mentioned this to the neighbor woman, and she mentioned it to a third person and I but leave that she was either went That party too to some other location. Where this time went down, or perhaps she went home as the official story is and then she went somewhere else. I do not believe at all that the Ramseys knew what was what was going on at that level, I do not believe that I think patsies all of her behavior around the pageant stuff is innocent, but it's a type of image. It can be extremely dangerous and I think she was exposing her daughter to a lot of people and a lot of things that

but we were dangerous, and so when people say Patsy Ramsey's guilty, that's what I believe she's guilty of, Damn Griffin was not like that. I won't leave my daughter alone with certain people. I will keep an eagle eye on her at all times. I don't think Patsy operated that way. I think she was naive. She was trusting and she had been in a pageant world which is probably more innocent when she was involved in it. But this is the 1990s. There is the internet, there's child flotation, there's an underground worldwide marketplace in this kind of photography. These kinds of images people are getting involved in this one of photographers. Around dominate subsequently said, he was approached by child pornographers, who wanted to use pictures of those children to create product. Essentially and by then one of the things that we heard repeatedly from pageant mothers is that, of course, you can take the hit,

head of one of the pretty little girls you I can put it on another body and you can sell that image. We were told that point blank by people. We were involved in this world in the late 90s, so all of this stuff was going on and is all swirling around Jon Benet and her family and I believe that someone was became aware of her. Through these circumstances became. You know that she was a pretty little girl. She was a natural target for predators, an I believe that she attended some of them that went horribly wrong. I think it probably involved prominent people. An it had would be covered up and again, if you look at what grand jury concluded. If you look at the language of their conclusion, the they're, saying the Ramseys exposed their daughter to the circumstances that led to her death and participated. To cover up- and I think this is close to the truth as we've gotten in the

as you said at the start of the Show- there's absolute truth- where we absolutely know what happened, we don't have that here and there's affective truth where you can try to you, know, logically and reasonably extrapolate from the circumstance how did all the evidence get on her body if it's not in That house. Where did it? Come from it had to, from somewhere right. Why so again and if you break it down, logically, it's perfectly possible to suggest that she did not die inside that house that she was got killed by an intruder and that she who is not killed by her parents, if I go along with that, which I find perfectly reasonable. I also so again, my imagination worlds with

is very suspicious photographer crying and contacting all these people and acting very guilty this Simons and all Mister White who ran he throws under the bus. But in view really he won't. He won't speak out against the Ramseys, acted incredibly, so vicious trying to separate Patsy from PAM and just incredible behavior, and then they have a falling out, John and and Mister white. Reply imagination runs to taking it. Far more sinister in that ice. A photo session with this slimy Simons and and some prominent person, like you say, having some kind Santa photo fantasy, where I think Patsy Ramsey is, can, Vehemently naive and I Something goes much more than horribly wrong. I think this is. I don't know how

much more evil. The scenario you can get then Christmas, Santa and child porn right. And I think, what you describing is the aqui what needs to be investigated and it is exactly what the system. Has resisted investigating and I'm I'm not naming names here. I'm again, I want to be clear about that, but is if, I believe that, if the investigation had been opened up, into these realms. The case would probably be solved. I believe that if the rain Ramseys had been indicted on what the grand jury concluded. Because there are reasons to believe that the grand jury heard about some of what I'm talking about. There are reasons to believe that which goes back to that question. Why it's in the other fourteen pages. How did they conclude? so that the Ramseys expose their daughter to something, if they're not telling us

that something was I mean it's a? It's a very obvious, journalistic questions, so this is the road that they absolutely I refuse to go down. What's the end result the cases unsolved an and again, I think it touched on people inside the boulder power structure that we're absolutely determined that this was not going to come out. Then it hasn't come out, so you know, except in you know in samples like this, where you really do try to apply investigative journalism to situation as opposed to just jumping to a conclusion. You it plane in this book- and we haven't talked about this- that we,

we hear numerous stories with this true murder broadcast about infighting and department's, not sharing information, massive disconnect between a but you explain, boulders, somewhat unique political situation and you say that it seemed to be that boulder was trying to really cultivate a certain image and retain that image, even through Jonbenet debacle. Boulder is extremely image. Conscious, I mean anybody, been there or been around. It I mean it cultivates. You know high minded Jamie and in this liberal fluent, you know college community to the n th degree. They are very very image conscious and there's nothing worse for your image. Then you know a dead child in a dirty based

with the garage around your neck, that nobody can explain an that now, but he will help solve so yeah and to go to the disconnect between various, please agencies or district attorneys. This is what actually happened when I went to Alex Hunter in the spring one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven and I laid after the things that we've been talking about here and they of all the internet. They involved images in these things and he said to me. I swear this is true. The boulder police will not investigate any of this, so I think you should go do that now. This there's a hiest legal official in the was prominent case in the history of the state and region suggesting to a journalist that be

does the police department will not do their work. That someone like myself, she Go look into that which would involve breaking the law, absolutely. I wasn't very internet savvy back then anyway, but that show shows you how entangled and screwed up this thing. Actually was, and it does that way because of the fixation ascentia. Play of the boulder police department. An that to me was the biggest sin in the case. Not, They made mistakes early on, because that happens and but their investigation, you know, didn't, have flaws in it. But there was sort of fundamental resistance to opening it up into looking into the natural criminal realm that this child was exposed to you talk about the world the culture of this child porn in

one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven internet for general use is just a couple of years old and of course this is you do is an update on the bad news and Yutaka. About a twenty fourteen time, article about the dark web. So I guess we know that it hasn't gotten better since ninety seven, it's you know law enforcement began to catch up with when I twenty seven there were five thousand worldwide child porn sites. By two cause, and there were one hundred thousand, so it was growing at. Nationally and law enforcement has made some strides to catch up with that, but it just further and further underground. Now you have the dark web bitcoins in and all of that that angle of this, so I think people just need to be aware that you know-

All of this stuff is out there. Just like PAM Griffin said you have to be street smart and aware that children could be exposed to these things. It could be very dangerous, and really that was the sort of the underlying purpose of writing the book. I didn't know what happened. And I didn't I didn't have many of the answers an and I was involved in a little bit of speculation, but I felt that I was. I think it was one of the first books to talk about this. This underground criminal realm, that was a

merging up through the internet- and I thought that was worth writing about anyway, and that people should be aware of that that images can be used for these purposes. So that's why you don't as a true crime writer, you know. No one wants to write a book where you don't have the answers where you don't really know what happened, and you can tell that story that people that wasn't possible then it's still not entirely possible now. But I thought the exposing of this other realm, was worthwhile. This other realm also, you write about the worldwide events since that time, and describe again- the audience can handle that we're talking about child porn not to be mistaken for fifteen year olds and abating suit. Tell us what exactly what This worldwide arrests and what type of pornography is found you spoke to a group called enough is enough. Tell us

It's extremely graphic I mean just so. People are but I mean we what we one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven was, now children tide up hanging. From the ceiling again easily be strangled by something like that. If, if something went wrong and that's exactly what appears to happened to Jon Benet you're talking about sex, the real time, video of adults having sex with children, you're talking about the most graphic stuff, you can imagine and so you know this is and again I think part of this story is that this is done. Matter. You know this is dark material people are uncomfortable with that. That's totally understandable! They want it to be this case to be about a mother who hit her daughter over the head because she wet the bed there. There's a scientific explanation on the lifetime show on Saturday that showed

Why that is not what happened in this case that the sequence of events was the strangulation because their defensive wounds on Jon Benet, and there were you know efforts to get the garrote off her neck by her as she was dying and the whole scientific scenarios is laid out, but that's that didn't get whacked over the head, and then the Ramseys created this factual scenario in the basement to see Sorts of events is the other way around, which implies that you know she she was killed, and then this thing was covered up, so you know I I understand, I think, a lot of my experience in writing about this or trying to bring any shed any light on. The hat at all has been met with resistance because people, you know this is a tough thing to think about, but it's real and it out there and the purpose of writing the book was to say

This is not the only child involved in this kind of stuff. I'm sure that it's, not the only child in this area. That's been involved in this kind of stuff and we need to be aware of it. We need to bring awareness to it and I think I think if the case were solve me. This is just my opinion, but I think it would it would, help illuminate that it would make people more aware- and that was really the underlying reason for for doing this- not to contradict you, but what I found awfully strange was that, in light of the Jon Benet murder, that the pageant Business woman said it's didn't affect at all. In fact, I doubled my business. I think, in some in some cases, that's true. I also think it's been toned down in certain areas. It it it was here now, maybe not the south. The south is a different animal and we all know that in this area it

get toned down some of the costumes, some of the you getting dolled up and all of that so yeah. In some ways people were drawn sure, because it had so much publicity, but I think it did make this sort of speaking with people like PAM Griffin. I think it sobered up a number of people who are involved in that and they began to rethink a little bit about what they were doing. The other thing I found was that you mentioned is that real It's not really. The brightest and the most. Deviant or horrific people are that are actually arrested. You actually talk about sort of the stupid people getting rounded up only, in what context you mean and well in the in the in the country. Now you have already been yes yeah, peer to peer, so I mean wow well, it just seems to be in maybe I misinterpreted that comment.

No, I uh one of the the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Men told me that very early on in the investigation that you know the dumb people were getting caught, but. You know, one of the Ui is retained, details from the research you do, but you I just remember being told that you know if you four hundred and ten. Chicago and I'm in Denver, and I wanted to send you an illicit image I could send it from Denver to Miami to London, to Russia, to Japan, to you and it would and that would take you know something You know under probably a couple of seconds, and that would be extremely difficult to track. You know to figure what the origin of it was in all of those things. So some really smart people. We're utilizing the technology in that way and that's again, that's what made it such a difficult thing for law enforcement

and again that's that's one of the major things going to write about. Now you also just talk about some uh people on a gentleman in Denver that was arrested so or pardon me just an hour outside of boulder and he was arrested in a child porn, ring And you tell us a little bit about that: an why you included that well, but what happened was that. In two thousand and two thousand and one there were a couple very, very interesting, poems that were written. Anne were sent to a lawyer in boulder who was a part of the Ramsey case in a kind of tangential way. And I subsequently got the poems and. One of them- It contained names at at the end of and there were six five of the names.

Fairly well known to anybody who really knew this. This world, all of the people appeared to have Connections to set activity with children, and there was a six name have somebody who nobody had ever heard. I hadn't heard him and I didn't know anybody else who had- and this was two one thousand and one- and I I was very intrigued by that five years later, this in individual, was arrested on charge with forty nine counts of child. Porn creation and distribution ann- went into the legal system in boulder and you know it was was locked up and so, when Third district attorney came in on the case, Stan Garnett in two thousand and nine. I began communicating with him

and I shared this information and again it's a little bit complicated. But what I'm saying is that somebody wrote a poem into One thousand and one about somebody who would be arrested for crimes in exactly this region. The pumps were about child porn. Crimes against children and somebody was arrested for that and put into the system. So the person who wrote the knew that about this individual, and this individual turned out to be a perpetrator. I We knew who wrote the poem Zan. I knew about the trader and I knew that the people doing yes, we're trying to get. Some information to law enforcement, about people involved in these kinds of activities in this region, with the suggestion that this had a definite connection to the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and I took it to the police. And they wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. So, in

other words, you have a perpetrator of these crimes sitting in the system. In the area police, his job is that to interview. People learn what they know, learn who they know, learn how they got involved in this you know, we've all watched the crime shows where you make deals with people based upon the information they give up. They wouldn't do it. Why? Wouldn't they do it? This. This is one example. There are numerous examples that I could give you a people who tried to come forward. Who try to talk about these activities, who tried to talk about people in the Asian who were involved in them, they were serious individuals and they were completely Reba by the boulder legal system? I don't. I can explain that the only explanation that you can have for that is that this was something they didn't want to investigate again.

That would be alright if the crime got solved. If you could look at it and say well, you know the mother did do it. Finally, so we all know that we don't know anything, The reason we don't know anything is that this is never been properly investigated and so I can tell you that there are people out there now civilians or people who worked in law enforcement before who are still conducting investigation into this, and some of them are very good. So the case is not over. This is not the end of the road if is dna match from those samples that hits the national database. Code is Codis you get hit on that, then you've got a perpetrator, so it's not over. It's a terribly difficult situation. I think, because

there are people in power who don't want it to be solved Ann. Ask yourself why I mean it's a very good question, so that's where things stand right now You know there may be other chapters. And you said you will update so obvious website. The book was brought out as an ebook, an self published, because now If there are developments you know we can update it as it goes along and you know bring it right into the present. So I'm hoping very much that there will be new development and that You know we'll do another show sometime where we actually have more information. You know we need to solve this case. Absolutely and I and I and I think people demand that at like I said not just the people of boulder or. Surrounding area. But citizens want to see a resolve to this

and thank you very much for this investor Asian and it's a fascinating book called presume. Guilty and investigation, the Jon Benet Ramsey case the media and the culture of pornography thing Very much Stephen, singular for coming on and talking about this this evening, Thank you very much, then. I really appreciate you giving me an opportunity to talk. Well, thank you Steven and I hope to talk to you real soon about this particular case. Thank you very much and goodnight. Thank you goodnight, but

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