For more than a century, Dr. Thomas Neill Cream has been listed as a potential 'Jack the Ripper' suspect. Indeed, he was a sinister character, preying on the unfortunate souls who were forced to make a living as streetwalkers in Victorian London, and ultimately led those poor women to an untimely and torturous death. These crimes eventually branded him the 'Lambeth Poisoner'.However, during the time of the heinous Ripper murders, Dr. Cream was incarcerated in Joliet Prison, Illinois. Over the decades, this fact alone has caused debate as to whether or not he deserves to be under suspicion of being the Whitechapel fiend. Was it possible that Dr. Cream bribed his way out of jail? Perhaps he used a doppelganger to take his place whilst secretly finding a passage to England with murder in mind?This fascinating book, told from the standpoint of Cream himself, explains the twisted logic behind his actions. The author has done considerable and meticulous research, tracing Cream's life from his adolescent years in Canada to his last moment on the gallows at Newgate. PRISONER 4374-A.J. Griffiths-Jones
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. For more than a century doctor Thomas Neil Cream has been listed as a potential jack. The ripper suspect. Indeed he was a sinister character.
Praying on the unfortunate souls who were forced to make a living a streetwalkers in Victorian London and ultimately lead those poor, women, too, and ultimately and torturous death these crimes eventually branded him. The Lambeth poisoner. However, during the time of the heinous ripper murders Doctor Cream incarcerated in Joliet Prison Illinois over the decades. This fact alone is cause debate's. Whether or not he deserves to be under suspicion of being the Whitechapel fiend, was it possible that doctor cream bribed his way out of jail? Perhaps he used a doppelganger to take his place while
secretly. Finding a passage to England with murder in mind. This fascinating book, told from the standpoint of cream himself, explains the twisted logic behind his actions done considerable, an meticulous research tracing creams life from his adolescent years in Canada to his last moment on the gallows at new gate. The book. So we're featuring this evening is prisoner four thousand three hundred and seventy four with my special guest journalist and author Aj Griffith Jones, welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview, Aj Griffith Jones. Thank you good evening. Then good evening. Thank you very much for joining us on the program this evening. Now, if you could tell us what your background is and how you came,
to be the person that wanted to write prisoner four thousand three hundred and seventy four, how you came to this story and how you came to want to and be in a position to write this book and it They will both nineteen I moved down to London slip into work. An hour became involved in going to Jack the ripper talsen the stand and become quite interested in the whole story of Jack. The ripper in that the murder mystery as it were, and then started buying books down there and I'm learning about the subject, and I'm quite interested in one particular suspect who was Doctor Thomas Neal Queen, who supposedly used to wear a horseshoe typing. That was said that one of the witnesses that saw Jack the rip Running away from the crime scene actually saw him wearing a horseshoe typing so
You know being young, I thought oh well. Perhaps it was doctor cream. So I went to the old Bailey and how to look at these records there and became very interested in him and spends about ten years research in his life and and looking for please um. Then I she moved over to Shanghai for ten years and I lived over, there is a language training manager. And then pretty much have to put my research on hold because of being in China is quite difficult to actually work on the research that we came back to the UK three year.
The guide, and on doing that, I decided that the best place to look. I got the research out again, and I thought the best place to look is to actually ask Joliet State penitentiary. If there's anything left pertaining to his file and then there was. There was a huge file in most on almost two hundred pages in his prison file, containing the lots and lots of documents and but actually gave me the evidence of his whereabouts in one thousand eight hundred and eighty eight. So I started putting the book together. Yes, now you Start this book you give a little bit of history of Thomas Neill Cream. You say: he's a son of a migrant Lumber merchant later lumber merchant at born of a God fearing scottish family. But you take us almost immediately in the book into right, diving into the action two
have a twenty four year old, Thomas Neill Cream, and he is in Mansfield Street Montreal. One thousand eight hundred and seventy four two years into his medical degree at Mcgill University, so tell us from there what the situation is with his father and in terms of finance This is in why and how he has he's in a position that he is in in Montreal second year into his medical degree. The influence of his father tell us about Thomas Neil Cream. At that time, one thousand eight hundred and seventy four in Montreal, ok. Well, the family actually came over to Canada when Tom This was about six years old and then his father was actually managing a lumber company and quite quickly got to the top of his trade and ended up owning the lumber. Merchants and Thomas was apprenticed there when he was about
Seventeen- and it was also during that time, but his mother was quite ill and he was the main members of family who missed mother and his father thought he had quite an aptitude for doctoring skills. And then Thomas wasn't that interested in working at the lumber firm. It was a little bit too much like hard work for him. He did used to teach at Sunday School as well used and very talented penis from musicians. He he worked on Sunday school as well, but his father on money left school is Father, decided that perhaps that would be a good idea to send them to you. James M Thomas thought, it was a good idea to on his mothers, death San. He father decided to invest money and then not sending out today with training. Now you talk about his time at Mcgill University in Montreal and
what he does in his spare time and how he manages money so tell us what his life is like. What is lifestyle is like and did just begin to talk about the the emerging and involving character of Thomas Neill, cream yeah, and you can see by the from the photographs in the book. He was a bit of the truck a lot of people very charismatic character. He like good clothes. It he's a bit of a gamble last night. He liked the ladies, I'm not a good time So his father found that he was constantly financing sensor. You know the finer things in life that he wanted and then he He had a bit of a wild time there actually in Montreal. Actually, then, we believe that it was actually done that he contracted syphilis from a prostitute, so it could have spend
from his need for revenge over the years and for for living the high life. Now you say at this time that he contacted syphilis in money we all partaking in these. Ladies of the night, as he said
now. What was the side effects from what he from the syphilis? How much did they really know about syphilis at that time? And what was the at least immediate remedy for the headaches and the syphilis that he knew he had contracted? Okay, the taking small amounts of struck me the most sane. Initially, it was mostly, he was a fine fine. I am going to the sun fellow students on what type of exam his friends at. Would you like to in an ideal, because they only had five teams that taking up positions of morphine good and help you it had like for the the topic at the time. Initially thought was that does for the young lady had few traumas, the only really fair,
side effects that he found the stadium the headaches, but eventually, over the years. These tendencies, the bullet that develops icing, Margraten Flat, he's getting such pain behind, he's, gonna use and it was affecting his vision. He was born with a short sightedness anyway, but he's he's only deteriorated more quickly, because the process and then you know basically he had to keep increasing his dosage and he was mixing different kinds of opiates to control his term his nightmares and his migraines and his dress at Paine field like in bones. And you know his general condition. Now, you introduce a character that everything was seen
to be going well and he graduated in March, one thousand eight hundred and seventy six doctor Medison and Master of surgery, and he had convinced his father. You write that the cover is cost he turned to Britain and he plan to roll enroll in a postgraduate course at Saint Thomas Hospital in South in South London. And everything was going according to plan until we met a Miss flora. Brooks so tell us about how we meets floor Brooks and and her influence and her changing of his wife are quite dramatically: hey Que se Florida's, not she does. It say she was having a little a little break before family man. She visiting Montreal. They just
really over a matter of a few weeks. I still keep going out dating and she was a very attractive young lady, a nun cream was happy to take her out and have her on Ivan, but unfortunately she became pregnant and what he defined it was that he'd already had already you know booked his place on the cough, and he was definitely when I go to England, so he decided that the best route to take would be as he was. A skilled surgeon himself was to perform an abortion on her. He thought it be quite a simple operation They could wait himself with the child and then Danny in compliments and- and you know his attachment to flora. Unfortunately, he he performed it at the hotel. He sent her back home on the train the next day, but she was heavily bleeding and her father out to call in a local doctor who,
found out what had happened and uhm on in the events, so slow, Father March down to the hotel, cream is in the ball, with a shotgun and and his sons with him and forced him back to their sometime and then he ended up my hello, a clever. Does it work so the next morning after the wedding he escaped out of the window while everybody else is still sleeping and he took his passage back to England on the 12th of September So he was actually only married for one one day with his bride before he actually escaped. Now you talk about his diabolical character in his
you throughout this book, but to show the demonstrate after a year he gets notice of something happening to his one day: marriage, his wife. What does he do as a result of that yeah? She? She died of consumption. Basically, it's kind of a condition that they used to call for tuberculosis and she she was very, very unhappy and took her a year. She actually wasted away and she and he decided that he would like to have some money. Must her room and say widow, and then he sent a letter today, the family asking for one thousand dollars. Which they weren't very impressed it, but then they realized that they weren't gonna get rid of things very easily sort books. His father actually owns a home,
so they were very rich family, so creams thought he could extort some money out of them. In the end he did settle for just two hundred dollars, yeah incredible now you write. He still had these headaches in the he's played by these headaches, but he also had this expert knowledge about chloroform from his training at me. And email us on two three. No, he also travels to Edinburgh, Scotland, but tell us: will our in glass go as well tell us what he is? What is impressions are of of Scotland, but what he really desires to do? and get back to yeah he's been living the high life that can come with you to meet my good friends down on the London with quite a five one, six, eight, probably at the sign with New York because of the time
and he was having a good old times on that, but he needed to he couldn't get into the college in London to take his final examination but he ended to put the Royal college of certain physicians and surgeons in Edinburgh and he found it quite a dreary city and expose it very cold and very wet up a pick up now in Scotland despite him being born in Glasgow. He didn't actually remember anything of Scott from because remember he he left when he was only six years old, but he did stay there. He actually he knuckled down and he finished his he took his master's degree, and then from, Monhegan said goodbye to his friends, but he was in need of funds after after it was back to on a date with him in one thousand, eight hundred and seventy nine. Now you talk about what he's qualified to do. We had the
Took it upon himself to do the abortion of his pregnant girlfriend, but what he see qualified as an what does he work as really ok he's qualified with general surgeon, I'm physician so safer nowadays, a general practitioner. And he worked as an obstetric crock Clark when he was in the Saint Thomas Hospital. Mainly really well it's while he was studying. It was to get some extra money and to send his lifestyle. But when he returned to Canada, he decided that a good thing to do would be to open a clinic in Denver Street in Ontario. It was close enough to the family to still be able to get money off his father, if you needed to if he needed to lean on him a little bit, but he was still independent enough on his own three opened this women's clinic, basically as an abortionist.
Now you also talk about this time and we you had mentioned the horseshoe type in, and you say in the book that The cream really like this type in this piece of jewelry very much in the in fact, had a photo of this mugging for the photo with this jewelry. But at that time you talk about, will Talk about its importance later, which would mention it isn't a horseshoe tai pan is given to a friend, tell us a little bit about the horseshoe type in, and this exchange apparently supposedly and the photograph of thought to clean. The console should talk. Now she sits on my desk while I'm working on actually how bout here
he was very attached to it and he used to wear it in his early days in London, but it's not being found amongst his artifacts, but we thought we'd got his spectacles, which are at the Science Museum and letters, and his clothing was actually bought by Madame Tussauds, his suits and things, but the horseshoe type. It didn't turn up and I do actually believe that the gentleman that I'm investigating now, who we would just call are actually have that Porsche Palatine that it was gifted to him until three facebook go ahead. Sorry, sorry, I was just going to say the nature of the research that I'm doing now. I can't actually identify who are is at the moment.
You can identify who this is a new do just before. Yes, my name is Margaret. I called tell you I'm afraid, because it will be a second book or not yeah. Now you you talk about this just for the record in this in this book. You write this book from a certain perspective and that's from an auto biographical as the fictional stance, in terms of auto biographical, but you do take the material again. This is nonfiction. You do talk about why you adopted that writing perspective, which is Unusual, so tell us why I did do that. Ok, it's it's quite unconventional! You think I wanted to write it as a nonfiction book,
Because I had all the prison files in a huddle, the information to put in there and all the years of research, but I'll, buy open the files and I started reading. There are notes in there from doctor cream when he was talking to his attorney during different trial. But he was involved in so I'm actually reading some of the notes in his hand. In his own words, I'm. I really wanted to kind of include that, so that people could understand what kind of a character he walls you know you've got some. This message is in bad that day. He really believes that he's not guilty, especially as to the first trial that he was involved in he. He honestly believes that he's not guilty and he's watching these messages across to the tenant. So I actually wanted to use some of
Both words too now express' what he was doing and what was he was saying what he was feeling at the time and it's quite an unconventional way to do it. But I really felt that an autobiographical book would appeal to people interested not just in Jack the ripper but history in general, and also to make it sort of a more interesting story, but from doctor cream standpoint, rather than from the victim standpoint or just for historical standpoint. So's decision to do that. You write in this book about Catherine Hutchison Gardner, again just to illustrate or demonstrate the character of Thomas Neil Cream. Apparently she was nineteen years old and she came to him
for this abortion, but you don't have any money, tell us what he does do and how, again from your notes, you've garnered how he really feels about this yeah part of talk to Queens mood swings are related to his headaches and things, and so, when Katherine Gardner comes to the clinic and she's she's very upset, some pregnant she's, very young. She doesn't know what to do. She can't tell a family- and you know essentially creams that wouldn't do business and that's the way that he looks at it and he's there to make money and he's there too,
you know it's from the inspiration, take the money and I'm not being done today, the client so she's. She comes along and she should be getting very upset. How did not stop story and not you know, explaining everything he tells of how much the abortion is actually going to cost us out. She breaks down in tears because she can. She call touches for that. She's she's a heart mind and she doesn't have the kind of money that needed to actually have the abortion clinic, and I think it's in the moments of much anger doctor Queen uses a handkerchief committing chloroform six initially called a dime, but she struggles. So he ends up putting the country by the license of the case, I'm late front sight and at the back of the act, HANS, which is connected to a loss of the buildings and not straight so he thinks it would technically affection. I could have article
a lot of bad press and eventually he had to move way from there, because it was all the newspapers and he was questioned by the police and eventually it was classed as a murder by persons unknown. And he was traded, but it still tarnished his name quite badly. So the result he decides to go across border. So where does he go to in eighteen? Seventy nine? Where does he set up another business? Yeah he'd goes to W Madison ST Chicago, and then it's got a nice one lady called MRS greatly helps instill tie. His Williams he's got his own per lodging and then he's got his clinic next door and then he's making quite a good business. It's you
expensive clientele in the area and he's running his his abortion clinic as well so yeah right and in the Hubbard, Chicago area yeah, so he has a of ladies of the night or a red red light district, real handy, so he knows is where his business comes from and even employs an assistant Hattie MAC. So again, everything so. To be going well for him, but one night Happy MAC comes to him and it looks I caddy MAC isn't in in patient. Tell us what had a MAC does and how this proceeds any. Finally winds up in the cross hairs of police with this. Yes, okay, so doctor creams, cold out and no one
from your bullshit. He doesn't actually do the markings on premises. He will use of waiting for an hour at the time happy not with a lady that would help him issue with the issue with that the patients ready with before the operation. So how did not close at night one night shifts and Send the messages to go and search doctor queen and it's called cold and blustery nights It takes a little bit longer than usual together and it seems that I mean happy mark. In her own way of those sites which has been made to walk on the abortion, is a backstreet abortionists, so she's quite experienced, and she did. She decides that You know he's taking a long time. She doesn't know whether he's coming or not, and she decides to start with the board herself. Unfortunately, the the young girl my name's Alan Stack, but he got there and she was
You know highland plumbing and plating. Happily, and unfortunately she died. Sorry at the time he had been database delta, Queen prescribes and straightening tablets. Take one minute to help take care of the baby and to bring it back to that some normal state. She she does do going on like blind chemist. The prescription was protected by the time she came with strict. Luckily I both of them got off the lack of evidence. I say luckily, but luckily for Doctor Klein, it was a lack of evidence. He doesn't have to knock out stage were able to get home and there was not enough evidence to them constant
Now, as a result, though, you say that Dr Cream kind of changes directions in his medical career and again in line with some of the scams insurance scams. Setting things on fire have any. It seems anything to to make a profit, the nominee conscience. What does he do next? What is what is? What is he decide to sell what he decides to go in a different and the mixing up different prescriptions for migraines skin conditions, temples, eczema or want to kill, but he's mine remedy that he came up with was an apple eptic. Your I mean he came together without by mixing strictly in an ordnance killer and then, luckily, the head, some of these patients quite believed in that, then they believe that it worked and he he managed to do quite a good business
and he had patients traveling from different parts outside of Chicago to to actually come into the city, to get the prescriptions and have consultations with doctor cream for their collecting. So it's a very, very lucrative business for him. You talk about also the morning after pill, where CHE Laces, with his favorite drug strychnine and he said that it just to correct those with induce a miscarriage, but again and somebody at this clinic dies. So as a result, how does he respond with regards to Frank pie at the chemist yeah? He just stopped blaming the chemist basically and You know saying that. Well it wasn't me, it must have been hear me. Mister put too much into the prescription now an interesting point on that actually is very
crime. Writer named Adam Selzer and he uncovered an unsolved murder of a girl called Alice, Montgomery, which I wasn't aware of at the time when I wrote the book and she'd actually gone into the hotel, bathroom and tighten the after morning pills with district mean in them, and she died a strictly in poisoning in the hotel just really thirty minutes after taking the Publix. So we have actually been wondering that could that have been docked queen because it was the same memo and the place. The hotel, where she died, was very, very close to his offer. Do that with only three blocks right. So we are actually wondering if they might even be another murder there as well right so. Him narrowly missing incarceration and his freedom being taken away completely. He still continues in this same fashion of creating cure alls and having
good success with people that somehow or other fine relief with that yeah he thinks he's invincible, so he carries on and he he believes that he found an apple epsi peel. So he carries on with these business and the you know. There's a fair few people by word of mouth. It's offending for the after morning pill as well. For him he's a lot of different ways he's doing a good business here now we mentioned this. We talked about this and I know you can't mention the name but tell us about the correspond since with this person named are in London. Can you tell us the nature of the correspondence, or can you tell us anything about that correspondence or the frequency of it? Now it's a a person, let him that when he was working at Saint Thomas Hospital, somebody who he would go out with an unsocialized with,
Um in Lumberton in the West end somebody who had I'm more mean and dumb, but also in the medical fashion. Correspondence between they didn't correspond when crane was in back in Chicago, Very they had some friends, mutual friends and made heard from each other in that way, but there wasn't any regular lessons going backwards and forwards. I don't have any of those right now in this. As you mentioned, the two hundred pages in the file gave you a fantastic idea of what he was we like- and, of course that's demonstrated this book- you say that he had an opinion about every City in America Cannon in Europe. In regards to these people that he thought were under
fireballs. Who was he talking about, and how did he speak about these? Ladies of the night? Yeah really? Is he going to desire to cleanse the street now a lot of a lot of it comes from his contraction surplus early on obviously former prostitute when you have in Canada and he's experi this life in the eastern when he went to live in, he had lodgings in Lambert when he was working at Saint Thomas Hospital and he's come across a lot of ST walkers down there as well. Probably partaking of that way and he's got quite a you know:
a very flamboyant lifestyle in the way that he likes to mix with people who have money he likes to where the best of closing finally got quite a content for for anybody, who's, the boss of the love alive, twelve- and you know, on on the street. Thank you. How good real good will hatred for prostitution Very much how you talk about this right. You talk about the epilepsy remedy, really doing well for him and one at one point. He meets the wife of an epileptic man, Daniel Stott. He was not able to travel to Chicago, but he did believe that this was secure and so tell us about this relationship that evolve with Julia start his wife tell us about this yeah Daniel start with a railroad agents. He was down sixty years old and he had a
much younger wife, Julia was times nine hundred and thirty years old uh in time. Julie are good, frequently traveled to Chicago by train, to pick up the epileptic you'll for a husband who he believed it was working and after seizures became worse, he
meditate prescription more often and so Julie would travel in more often she would go to the dentist. She would pick up bird seed and go and get dresses made and her husband would would fund this, and so she would travel from garden prairie from the home into Chicago and eventually became close. Really pretty much within a few months became close to doctor cream and they began an affair Ann in June of eighteen, eighty one it was suggested by Julia lips and her husband needed increased dosage, which queen did increase the amount of strictly in the capsules for the axle execute.
Uh and then you stop died as a result of that. So you know other we convict cream cream had no desire to run away with Julius Dots. I don't know whether she had different designs, which I pretty much think she did, but for creams, part of it. It was actually Julius thought that administered district name and administered that boast it wasn't cream. She was the one who took the Publix, went home and administer printable husband. You right, though, not
You too basically explain this to the audience that what happened is that they had this relationship, but at some point it seemed almost surprising to cream that she wanted to increase the dosage and kill him basically and as we get a he's, SS store thought that she did have some romantic ideas about the two and he didn't, and but he also thought he could be being on this scam- just another scam, but he wanted her to administer to drug so that he wouldn't be responsible. But then, in a couple of days, even hear from her that so he was waiting to hear from her because he was interested in getting some of the insurance money for his part that he played in it yet, but at the same time, what does he do? A couple days later in terms of the
county coroner to sort of offset anything that she may do? He was he wasn't untrusting person even at this time before we talk about really yeah. That's right, doctor Cream wrote to the Cronus and basically alerted him that it was foul play now he's trying to You know just put himself there and say: well, yes, I I did the prescription, but I didn't administrator. You know so that he could put the blame on Julius DOT. I think he was hoping that you know she would she would get sent to jail for that, basically for poisoning our husbands, but it backfired on him. Unfortunately,. Now with this. This is he is at a history of weaseling out of worming out of of jam.
Is that other people would have ended up in jail forever with this, despite his countenance to him trying to do something anticipate. What her next move will be, what happens with. Arthur, creams ideas about pudding the blame on her. How does he respond? What is the corner? Do tell us about this fascinating exchange. I can't well basically because Doctor Kramer put his name on it. They were both the red And they were both put up for trial, and then the trial went on for a few days and eventually Julia stops. Turn states. Evidence And then made up but it was old of queens idea that he was the one that it needs. Thing about the increase in the strict mean dosage. And then she thought it was the the same prescription as usual.
Yeah. Basically, she could always go free, couldn't find guilty on sentence for the term of his natural life to go to jail yet state penitentiary. Now we're gonna talk about at this time in Joliet prison and how secure cream is in this and how content or not content, but how we xiety is that he's going to spend the rest of his life in Joliet prison so tell us about, and So we didn't mention was about five weeks into this trial.
Put a man in his cell. He looks like a scrappy kind of guy. What happens again and this this reinforces his mistrust of almost anyone. Tell us what happens five weeks into that trial with the cell mate yeah Queens Queens having night and then basically he's screaming at night he's got travels. He still got his migraines he's being a very disruptive prisoners to be honest and then they put a guy into the cell to basically needle out of him. What he's done and cream comes up with a confession to reset you might say well yeah. I did this and I did that and put the whole thing out in front of them, and this guy who's been there just for a minor crime that he then is taken to the sheriff, and
he tells someone Craigslist Alabama that it's? It really goes against him when he comes up in called. Now this trial, how is it covered? How much media attention is there at that time? For this? How big a case is this and what is just the I guess, the demeanor of Neil Cream throughout this yeah in the beginning, he's unfazed. He really believed that he's going to get off Scott free. There was a lot of media attention. He was in Boone County jail. To sometime when the trial was going on before we actually went to jail yet, but he believes that he's going to get away he's got a very good attorney from the top company. He's got money to pay for that and his father's money from Anti up. You know they believe his family believes that
innocence and then he believes that he will, we're going to write it so he's kind of quite unfazed by it and there's actually letters. And they present files. Where he's making notes and he's telling his attorney the questions to ask Pull the provocation came to put to them and questions to put to Julia stops as well with her her actions following her her husband's death and the actions of the neighbors and people around them and he's actually written notes in there directing his attorney. He actually believes that you he's not going to get that sent down he. He really believes these kind of go Scott free with this one right. We're going to use this as an opportunity to stop for a moment to talk about our sponsor of this program. Tonight. Blue apron,
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And it was easy to make and I did it. It was great now you'll love how good it feels and taste to create an incredible home, cooked meals with blue apron. So don't wait. That's blueapron dot com, slash murder, blue apron, a better way to cook when we were spoke last AJ we talked about. Finally, Thomas Neil Cream sitting in prison, an as we talked about and alluded to in the beginning, this story
as ties and Neil Cream, has been a suspect in the jack the ripper murders. So we don't have to go through the entire jack, the ripper murder situation, but tell us about his imprisonment and then tell us a little bit about how on earth while he's in prison years later, people can regard him as a suspect in those white chapel murders, okay. Well, the interesting thing about finding the prison fall. Festival was sent contrary to believe with previously believed about crane. There was some Publix it's been worse and that he worked in the hospital or in the dispensary in the prison and what was fine,
get cream was sent to be general labor in the yard. First of all, and then after a couple of years, it was transferred to the Grammy Department. We actually have those transfer papers where he was transferred there to do very hard work in the granite department, so it kind of it changed him completely. He he left his hair, he did his eyesight deteriorated. He became physically stronger, but a week. A week of modern himself, yeah, okay, close to the very back at the time of the prison. Look quite interesting as well, because what, during this time that several hundreds of paper petition to get it not
I believe that unity of thought on the matter and the cream of innocence. We have a lot of people of his followers. That's what she assumed statement by am the gentleman called to which I had to come. He was with stops night and he believes the jury stuff at the high very suspicious, and after that she couldn't be fined cream. She signs his attorney and the investigated to come, find earlier stuff and then she disappeared and on the retirement of Julius doctor. Turning when he was spoken said, he said that he believed that his own client was guilty and that cream was serving a life sentence for someone else. So cream Hunt this to contend with he's very frustrated he's getting lots of high, This way he he believed that the petitions will work is going to get out and then he's got a lot of Lowe's as well. So it's very
dining there. During that time, it's father also died and leaving him an inheritance as well for him. You know he he's like this is really on the look. How is the one who's in mathematics of a jack, the ripper murders, Jack, the Ripper murder in eighteen, eighty, eight, nickel, green was incarcerated in November, one thousand eight hundred and eighty one until one thousand eight hundred and ninety one. He did ten years in there. So one of the reasons that he was noted as a suspect, as I said, was because of the horseshoe type in first of all, alright, but that in itself is just one witness statement now the world, rumors later on from Billington. Who was the hang man who can equipment new gates? That said that when Creamer, she hung that he shouted I'm jack from the scaffold which was quite interesting because it only came out
About ten years after queen had already been hung, there isn't any evidence and there's nothing for many of the families to them. But that's a patrol- and there were a few newspaper reports for those, so they were quite a long time after creams death. So there was nothing else in that there was a gentleman called Sir Edward Marshall Hall, and he thought that he recognized cream from a bigamy charge. But he thought that cream, it gotta double and he was thinking that he'd defended cream on this bigamy charge and creams. Doppelganger was actually in uh jelly, observing the the prison sentence in his place. I haven't been able to find anything to that matter by the words we actually have. The documents cover every single year that claim with incarcerated up until the actual computation of the sentence
he's released. So I think we definitely know where he was during that time. Now the idea that he could use a doppelganger that he could bring. Guards that that he could be in another place and get to London and kill those, you have Expn, Lord all those possibilities and ruled that out completely yeah the book the documents show where, where he was- and he wasn't in London now you say that the strict nine apartment strychnine, the syphilis, continued, obviously an how was he treated in the prison or well? How was his element treated in prison? I know that right in the book that during the trial- and I, if I'm wrong about this- that even the prosecution didn't know he was being treated with morphine At least his lawyer, it was providing him sup,
yeah human medication for his head. His lawyer was bringing some of the to him, but nobody was actually aware that he was suffering from that. He had quite a troublesome prisoner actually and he ended up being in the cell, but with very frequent changing occupants in the shell, because in the cell nobody wanted to share with him because of his nightmares and he's screaming and on the truck but he was closing and he the amount and they've only got one candle to last for a whole month. So he's trying to write letters he's trying to work on his case he's trying to come up with different angles for his attorney to station, and then you know, base he's, not getting very much sleep and under surplus is just getting worse and giving him night tremors and giving him even with my great so when his when his attorney does come, he provides them with some relief from some Medicaid
but as a general will cream, is not being treated for anything in this family in the prison. Now you say that he was released in nineteen. Ninety one tell us about what condition is in that time and what he does after exiting prison yeah, so he's released in the 31st of July, one thousand eight hundred and ninety one. You can imagine that when he's released from prison, he he's given back the clothes that you know he had when he he entered the present. So he's got his see tomorrow. Everything is he's very shopping. You know he's going to bed. He looks very rough. He started to lose his hair he's a shadow of the man that he was when he went in there, and so the first thing he decided to do was go to his brothers house, his brother, Daniel and uhm borrow. Some
from Daniel. While he's an inheritance money from his father's death of son being sold to that to get himself the estates and he's a little crazy personal belongings with that which included his medical five, which he needed, because we plan was to get revenge on women at that point, so he decided in the Septem with one thousand eight hundred and ninety one? He was only these brothers, six or seven weeks. And then September, one thousand, eight hundred and ninety one. He said to Liverpool,
rooms and headed for London checked into one hi Tom, now tell us what the again, what his physical state is at at that time and how bad is his physical, physical state at that time before we we talk about what he does. Okay, so he's he's that, and he looks like a he's, he's very, very slim, with clean mountain to present he he's a he's. A big man he's very tall strong sales muscular he comes back and he's like an old man. Hit frame is a fraction of what it was when he wants ANA
and looks quite honestly not sure he doesn't look like that, the player that he was when he went in the so really it's coming out to prison. You know, and finally, he can stop medicating himself again. He can stop taking, can straighten any coach payment? Is Lord number, all the things that he had. He used to take dovetails all the things that he previously took. He comes out and he can start mixing his concoctions and really himself headaches to some degree, but really getting his physical and mental states back to normal. Now he's back in London where he loves the nightlife and the ladies of the night, but you say he's now after prison, an be trails in his
mind and being jailed when he's innocent. At least he seems to almost convinced himself of that. What is his mo now and who does he pick on now? Look at it will be. The first thing really is you know his revenge on women. The one is from the point that the revenge on the prostitute that gave him syphilis so to rid the streets of the street walkers, but he's also hell bent on revenge of you know. Anybody who resemble or reminds him of Judea stopped the woman who said she put her into the prison, so he's going to be three to one, but he finds lodgings in on the polish ride, subsequent central by Kate.
Sing for him to a you know amongst the lowest soc. He needs some festival, he makes it a woman called Elizabeth Masters, but he just he just appeared time into the world sites. Bacon is just kind of getting used to his area and on what he's going to do so, he doesn't matter to her straight away. He just he just arranges to meet her and then he he needs and uh. Girl called Matilda Clover and at first he, let's her, go when he's just kind of testing out whether these girls live, whether they hand out and he's going to some local public houses and he
is really just getting to know the area again. He he knows it from issues when he was working at Saint Thomases and he's really just finding his feet to getting into the area and meeting up with with several women and maybe come to trust him, but they actually refer to in this thread. He pulled himself front and they trust him. You know she's a very unassuming doctor Bella Pick. Some of them feel sorry for him either. Almost like a little old man to them and they've got a gold rimmed spectacles city where they were, nobody is really afraid, hoping they just kind of get used to seeing him in the area and being amongst them. Now was there any incidents that he's involved with at that time? You say it seems, like everyone trust him, but is there any incidents at that time? There were a few incidents. Now the first one is on the 13th of October, one thousand eight hundred and nineteen
no he booked into York Hotel in mortal erode, obviously didn't want to take any of the girls back to his own lodgings. He needed a room for the night, so he booked him to the York, hotel and You must have bill, call Dell and done with so. They went back and they have some drinks and he offered her some some tablets for her complexion that he said, and I would would brighten the propane and you go over the strictly, but he knew that he probably only had maybe thirty to forty five minutes before they would start to take effect, so they left the hotel and took it to a public house for a quick drink they want to spend outside the back, with the drinks and he left her there and Alan's almost actually died from strictly in poisoning there so yeah. That was the very start with the first incident. The next incident was on the 20th of October when
We met up with Mathilde Clover, the girl that had already met he previously. He knew that she trusted him and she recognized him and he poisoned her um so that very first of all, we have we have the two before he actually decides to leave the city for awhile and take a little trip planter hearts with Harper Cheer two one lovely the media cool off, because it was a lot in the press about the poisonings now. This is where he he goes to Burke instead and he meets a woman named Laura again, he thinks he's in love, despite his behavior in his murderous past, tell us a little bit about this relationship and what it seems to mean to him.
Yeah. I I actually wonder whether perhaps lower was the only woman that he ever loved there's been some recently uncovered photographs of her and I'm sure that she was a very beautiful young woman and could say that younger than doctor, crane she's living with her widowed mother, not rich by any means, but very attractive and doctor crane takes them out together. He take to bring them up to London to the West end to show he takes them out of the box in the carriage in hot spot for cheer, I'm from dyed his hands church with them he eats at their house. He moved to a lodging times for a few weeks meta, their home, so that he can spend time with them and he gains the trust not only from Laura but also from the mother as well
uh, not very long and probably a courtship of about two months and they decided to become engaged. I do believe that he lived long probably the only woman that he lived now. How do we get to or how does he get to be accused of being What the title him as the land, this murderer or the poisoner yeah so town again, is when things seem to be going well. There just seems to be another incident that that seems destined to be re Real Neil Cream. So what happens? Sort of in this little party has going on he. He actually had to return
kind of to finalize some funds to secure some funds from his father's death. They family had sold the property they had his father's house to sell so queen had to go back and get his money from there, and while he was away, he decided that there hadn't been enough presser that, as I'm done with that, he would go to the Metropole Hotel and he ordered some Circulus to be printed and Lexi They would never never distributed a after density distributed at Easter and they never went into circulation, but that was basically the managers at the hotel, alerting you authorities, but you know this gentleman's ordered these flyers to be sent around saying that you know this girl is been murdered and then he starts to think about
again, extorting money. So he thoughts, writing blackmail. Letters now the one goes to the Devil rate Smith Family make, not that they were involved. There was another one to a contest results and adopt broadband and he's basically he's he's achieving these people of being involved in the deaths um and when he gets back to the UK. Right using his in his brain. He actually used it Laura and asked her to write two of the blackmail letters on his behalf and then she does some concerns as well. You know why. Why are you accusing these people and does it mean- and he said well, if you write the letters you know it's your doing. A good turn for a friend of mine that he knows that
people have been involved in the murders and you know I think we need to write to the authorities, so you actually get slower to write the letter for him uhm, but he got a little bit of it. Carried away, his poisoning, those he may it's another lady answer. Name is Lee Harvey Nalley, hobby, quite smart and she actually tricked doctor crane they arranged to meet and he gave us some pills but unbeknownst to him. She threw the movie environments of the river and then Queen didn't expect to see her again from there. He poisoned them. Other two girls called an and a shriveled on Dallas Marsh, so now he's got what he thinks of five poisonings in Lumberton he's pretty much thinking while I've got away with it and carrying on with this daily nice, the cream
oh wait. One note he likes to talk about it. He's done escapade, somebody's been sitting and he makes a former detective from New York who's called John Haynes and their walking after dinner. One night and cream start pointing right so the doorways in the alleyways, where these girls have been lived and and hung about and the names and he seems to know just a little bit too much about the murders. So John hangs reports this to a friend of his inspector Turnbridge that work city. Playstation. This is where Crane Dan gets arrested. Rest it, the medicine published it gave the Monica yeah number. Now again, he is faced with.
You know one of the worst situations of his entire life. How does he conduct himself? What's his representation? How does he deal with the police in his interview? Tell us a little bit about how things move forward after he's arrested. Ok, he he is quite full of Brevard live most of the time. He believes the reprieve will come. Let you know he'll be set free. And uh the the thing that changes doctor Queen is when Maurice appertaining his fiance is asked to come and take them explain her positive in the and she Look him in the eye. Now I think it's the
part of my reason why I really believe that he did love her. He changed completely after that he changed his. Will. He initially left money to Laura in his world, but you know when he passed away that she would have everything he's going to set up in business as a dressmaker in the western. So when this incident happens in court, where she can't look at him, he goes back to his cell and starts writing left with you see that one of the one of the lattices actually printed in the book that he wrote to Laura saying to her they've made a mistake. It wasn't Maine come and visit me and
everything will be alright, but she doesn't lower, doesn't turn up so cream sense for his sister Rachel to come over and it's one Rachel comes over and natural kind of talks him, and she knows she knows that he's changed. She knows what he's done. He's resigned to the fact that yeah this is going to happen, I'm going to hang for it. They called me- and you know it's the end for me, so it wasn't with the hang man November, one thousand eight hundred and ninety two yeah. They asked him if he had anything to say. If you had any statements, you say, after what he saw is the ultimate betrayal.
Was there anything else? He said officially tell us about that kind of thing that he said officially officially, Now we've got the rumor from the hang man, but you know that he shouted on Jack. To be quite honest. He painted he probably did must or something, but we don't believe that it was a confession of any any kind at all the night before the chaplain came to him he said his prayers and said you know. Is there any final confession? There was absolutely nothing to tell them he. He had nothing to say he
He didn't have anything to say to God he thought of you looking for the prayers and but he had no regrets hateful eight, the deep into them during the favor to Soc, see to read the straits of these women yeah. No, he he passed pretty peacefully. He went to the scuffled and yeah. It was quite instant. You said he changed his will and he in his willy changed and gave everything to his sister Rachel yeah yeah. That was when lower didn't go to see him at the present. He did have the attorney change it back again, and yet his sister had his effects quite interesting to note actually, but we do know that
or by Madame Tussauds for one hundred times, which was quite a lot of money in those things, wow and I had to work six acres crane night and it is actually not until the nineteen fifties. Why do you think that of all the suspects, Neil Cream seems to have dominated some of these conversations about likely suspects capable of nine? It's a different. I might completely but he's got he's, got the positions of the surgeons skills for the job just murdered. He knows London very well he's going to prefer that he believes that he's he's above the police that
You can take and walk around in committed crimes and then he won't get caught for it. He's also got also the revenge. I think the fact that he picked his suspects sorry he's victim, we're all prostitutes as well. I mean because that in common each other, and I think also you know the rumors from the hang man's claim and we have the whole. She talked him thing, but I think he's been a very interesting suspect because there's been so many conflicting things within the baton. That there was no actual solid evidence to where he was. There was rumors. He could have had a doppelganger. He could have paid Governor Fife are to be letter of prison. He could have done that. He could have done that. You know there have not been any actual evidence until I managed to get hold of the style, and then we can actually see where he cause. I thought he was doing a pinpoint him and you know from year to year where he actually was.
He's a very complex character in very interesting character. I think system testing Victorian London of that size are a big part. I mean maybe the real jack the Ripper awful had the and develop symptoms e well likely just it's. Pretty good assumption that that may have happened. It's interesting when you talk about when you demonstrate in this book prisoner four hundred and thirty seven for that The emos, like you say, are completely different and so Jack the ripper seems far less sophisticated than than this person that you pay vivid portrayal of This person almost seems again somewhat like Hh Holmes in terms of a surgeon. And a scammer and the ladies man, and
again very, very complex. Compared to the portrait. We have obviously of Jack the Ripper being much is that I don't check the ripper. I think track vehicle was very clever in different later because he actually the place you have a lot of place on the different dates are and they are murderers, especially rather Miter Michael Square murders. There are policeman walking onto beats. I think it was hardly in Watkins is on correct me if I'm wrong, but we have these two policemen walking down parallel streets, Where the murder is actually taking place in a very small area, so so in that way, Jack. The ripper very clever he knows who's going to be where he knows when he can commit the crime. He knows how much time he's got looking sort of quite complex. Actually, when you start looking at the case closely.
How, in your research, how affected again, he was doing you right that he was doing a combination of at some point to treat the headaches morphine, cocaine and strychnine. So how much did drugs affect his behave either at trial or before trial. Just in this, basically, is everyday life. How much was that a factor in some of this yeah create queen was very weakened, and in his mind, physically as well, He didn't look a great deal of time and he knew that at some point he was going to become bad and uh. You know He was having a lot of a lot of tremors and things, and he knew of you part of the reason why he was basically making his well getting engaged to law. He wanted somebody to look after him. You wanted a wife.
Maybe he's going to he's going to need somebody to take care of him, and I think that played played a big part in his swimming with Laura, so I we believe that you know when he went to the scaffold he pretty much had enough. He was a. He was a small we wait months and had to be done. The player that he will be. Eight to ten years in jail at the ready taken, a toll on and the fact that he'd been deprived of these drugs. I'm not able to tighten again, you know it. It affected his mental state. Great to you talked about looking at the available material before you delved into this and undertook this investigation will say how far off the mark was most of the most of the literature about
Thomas Neil Cream. Very there were lots of things that were not known in detail. For example, let's say we didn't have any sing any evidence against Julius Dots per say. There was no statements from the Navy, who'd seen what she was doing in the way that she was behaving and brush is gone. We have the didn't from Julia Stops attorney that actually thought that his own, his own client was was guilty. They have that there also, I mean, as a couple of books, written some twenty thirty years ago, but have cream working in the infirmary and dispensing medicines in the in the prison. At the time when I read the book, So I really wanted it. Why would they allow him to do that and knowing that he's, you know, he's been incarcerated for murder by poison
and then it turns out when I got the paperwork through. No it's all actually. Now that he's doing hard labor and you know it sometimes he's he's quite influence and he refuses to work, but it now what time was he ever in the infirmary he's doing labor? No, no. They said in the granite Department and he's got a few times when you have to go into solitary confinement as well and may Hank up into the door and he's put in the dark for eight days at a time, basically for refusing to work. So there's a lot of there's a lot of things in there that you know we actually didn't really didn't know about him
it really gives you especially the notes handwritten by claiming it gives you an idea. You can compare the two sets of nodes. One is where he's very determined he didn't caught in his writing to that you're. Turning him, he'd convinced that he's going to get off with this heat gotta plan, and now this is what we need to ask This is what we need to say and then we've got the very mellow romantic doctor cream. He's writing these love notes to Laura, and so you know basically again proclaiming his innocence and and come and see me. Everything is going to be. Alright. They've got the wrong man and yeah. So it's very interesting to see the teeth, night supposed characteristics and he's almost like a Jackal and Hyde and he's very what you write in this book. It seems that he has the confidence from, and this
You know this lack of this invincibility, but he also has the confidence to to lie and rebound and adapt to whatever needs to get done. Whatever that may be was insurance, scam or fire or killing someone or. And till we get to Laura, where it just seems a different time in his life completely, and I agree with you, it seems like just once. Maybe just one person is entire life, he cared a shred a modicum of emotions about yeah yeah. I think I think pretty much think she will stay on the a new one and it looks like they like. I think his
very close to both of his parents came from quite religious family. His mother's death was very hard on him when he was young and then he took his father's death quite hard as well, while he was actually inside Joliet. So I think you know from that point to be very close to his family, but he still got this this deep incepted woman hatred. I mean he even hates his sister in law, his brother, Daniel Partitions, a lot to get Thomas Class of prison. That he's got his deep hatred of of Daniel's wife and goes to stay there, just the way that she is she's a little bit. Brazen choosing the outspoken and he's got he's got this hatred, who believes that we've got a place and they should behave in a particular way which probably spends from his mother, because everything being deeply religious and install the bring the glue.
The new one control in the family. Well, I don't think it begins to explain the murderous career of Thomas Neill Cream, but certainly it is a fast Reading stories, an investigation that you've undertaken to, I think finally set the record straight- that it would be highly highly impossible or improbable that Thomas Neil Cream is Jack. The ripper yes completely
now before I let you go again, we walked around this sort of subject, but you said that it would be a subject of a sequel of follow up to this book, so whatever you can tell us about that. Please tell us about that. Ok, so after I'd finished, writing prisoner four thousand three hundred and seventy four, I looked at the very people that Thomas had been in contact with when he was at Saint Thomases and around the Lambert area and in communication, and one particular person that had cropped up in his life is the characters are so I've spent the last year and a half investigating
this particular person and um Iphone covered a lot of letters in an archive, and I have been right before that some really go to incriminate this person in the Whitechapel murders. I clearly can't say too much about what I found because barrel uh, a lot of things that still need to be investigated, but this is an on on government signal on the king in three nine, but the what type of medicine how it feels good, a good suspect and the the book all right so with correct, hoping will be asked at some point next year. I have some very exciting, some very, very interesting again. Any new information is just you know. People are waiting for. The ripper ologist and all the fans of of this case are waiting yeah. These letters have been these letters have been sent to life,
for a very long time, not read. I actually got Well, when I open them up because they were all covered in distance balls and some of them a little bit fire damaged as well So this is very, very exciting to actually read them things that come from the 1880s and 1890s that had maybe not wonderful and I was able to open them all up I don't get that information. So again, it's it's just been a case of knowing where to look, and luckily I managed to pick the right place. Well, that's that's amazing. We look forward to that in the near future. Thank you for those people that want to find out more about prisoner four thousand three hundred and seventy four or in the work that you do AJ do you have a facebook page or website that people might refer to? How can they contact you yeah, if you have a look,
hydrographics turn Facebook. Can join the group and they can find about ongoing projects that I've got there. Also, I've written a series of mystery stories. Are there series of five there's? Actually, the fourth one is coming out in May, so anybody want to join the book. Club will have a look at my also page on Facebook. All the informations up there about those things that I've got long, running lots of exciting projects underway there, I'm sure. Well, I want to thank you very much for AJ for coming on and talking about prisoner four thousand three hundred and seventy four it's been fascinating. Thank you very much, and you have a great evening friendly thanks very much, then bye, bye, goodnight.
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.