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Good evening this is your host Danzi Pensky for the program, true murder, the most talking killers and true crime, history and the authors have written about them in nineteen. Fifty eight nine teen year old. Charlie, start loyalty is all about being there day in day out, Tripoli thanks you for being there with loyalty, rewards like when you get savings on triple a auto insurance, just for being a triple a member, and when you switch to triple a auto insurance, you could save more based on how long you've been a triple a member and how long you've had your current insurance insurance. Not just insurance, learn more about triple a auto insurance and loyalty, rewards click now or visit Tripoli dot com, slash insurance arc, whether went on a murder spree that paralyzed Nebraska, lock the nation and left eleven people dead with him when he was captured, was

is fourteen year old Ex girlfriend Carol Fugate. The questions soon became where she had kidnap victim or a heartless accomplice. Appointed to her case attorney John Macarthur initially accepted the assignment out of a sense of constitutional duty, but as they delve deeper, he found The truth was far more complicated than anyone was letting on up against incredible odds and with a strong conviction of her innocence. Macarthur remain with Carolon fought for her freedom for eighteen years for the service no pay accepting the case pro bono. This book follows the long struggle of Macarthur, his partner, Meryl Reller and John Son, James as they took on the Nebraska legal system and a Public debt is already determined, carols guilt before ever hearing a word of testimony. The story continues through all it influenced, such as Stephen King, who became a horror writer Rick

Of it Bruce Springsteen, who wrote a whole album about it, Terrence Malik Oliver Stone Martin Sheen and Peter Jackson who his first major movie, based on the Starkweather Fugate Incident, pro bono explores aspects of this incredible story. That have never been revealed before and sheds new light on These terrifying and complex events- the book that we are featuring, the sea is pro bono, the eighteen year, defense Carol Ann Fugate with my guest journalist and filmmaker Geoff Mcarthur welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing this interview. Geoff Mcarthur. Thank you and thank you for having me Thank you very much incredible story and we're going to take our audience or international audience and our american audience back in time about fifty five years. So this is a fantastic story and one of the most

important, legal stories in american history. I've gotta say so. I'm really glad to recovering this. This evening, now, first off before we an let's not try to give too much of because I love the way you laid out this book and and how everything is revealed and how everybody introduced and how the story unfolds. So let we're going to try to follow it somewhat. Like that and those boiler yeah just tell the story. You know this incredible story now. First off what is your professional back around, and I think this is important and how are you related to John Macarthur? First tell us to list app. Please

well, I yeah, I'm, the grandson of John Mcarthur James Macarthur is, is my father, a who was one of the other attorneys and I grew up actually not wanting to be an attorney, even though I came from this lineage of them. I was more interested in storytelling, and so I started with with books of the kids but then turned to film. I was interested in doing that. Wind up going to film school at New York University then move to LA for obvious reasons to follow the film career. And after a number of years I just kind of circled back around and realize you know it would be a good idea to write a book about some things, including this one is had been around in my life. My you know my whole life yeah make sure to cover them. My next question, but really, why did you feel so compelled there's been so much written, so many movies inspired like we mentioned in the moment. I, like I mentioned in the opening this been newspaper articles editorials, I say movie versions, there's been

songs have been albums, has been people speaking about it. Why did you feel compelled? You know, like you say, you're, a filmmaker? Why did you feel compelled and at this time what was your reason before, writing this book. Well, you know it was just after seeing the story, sort of inaccurately portrayed so off you know a lot of times when somebody a lot of times when someone says inaccurately, they mean well, they were different, different color suit or something in this case. It's just been There there's been this belief that Carol was was. This was basically another Bonnie and Clyde. That Carol went with her boyfriend, Charlie, in fact, when you read things about it, Charlie and his girlfriend Carol, and they forget to mention that she had broken up with a few days before I- and you know many there's, there's so many elements about the story that have been missed by Miss Fold misplayed and what I grew up with. Well, it wasn't just a matter of Hades at the wreckage

great, but to me it was a much more. The actual truth was a much more interesting story, and I know it seems you know. I seem I ask is I'm from the attorneys family, but I I actually went and research it independent. I was like I really want to know what this thing is all about, so I read the original trial transcripts and all sorts of things and found him far far more fascinating story. I wanted them for trade in movies and books, and it was just more too complicated for movie as well. So I just I said you know what this should be a box and that's why? If I end up doing it great now tell us about your grandfather, John Macarthur. Basically we get to an introduction, through all of the all of the events in the book that to use about, but also we get an introduction to him. To introduce him in early in the book, so let's sort of

cursory introduction to your grandfather, who he was as a lawyer and the kind of lawyer. He was and again give a sort of the framework of the time so that we've got sort of a context for that. You know yeah, I'm glad you bring up the idea of the framework of the time, because it's interesting today, you say lawyer and people get this image of the guy from breaking bad. You know it's So much of sort of easy sleazy in is that that Etcetera and, in fact, actually at that particular time law was much more noble for Now, of course you always have you know people who are in for various reasons and stuff, but he had a lot more people who really believed in what they were doing and my grand father actually referred to it as the practical application of philosophy, and that was more his. He believed in what he likes, got himself not so much of a defender of individual clients, but rather a defender of the constitution, and he believed that that's really

What it was all it was all about as a lawyer, and he was very, he had a lot of credibility around town was very well respected because of the because of his integrity. Essentially but he also really understood a lot of the situations, a lot of people who in financial difficulty and all that sort of thing, so he would sometimes work as a lawyer for somebody as a trade of goods. So there are a lot of farmers who they couldn't pay any paying anything, but they had certain items and there was one story about when he was give Okay, any gave it as a pet to one of its it's one of those kids, because that was the payment yet gotten for for being on attorney, so that's sort of what he was it as an attorney in as a person. He was just very quiet, reserve kind of person who I didn't to let a lot out

either verbally or emotionally, but he he really enjoyed hanging around a lot of people who know very dynamic personalities and that sort of thing but yeah. It was interesting to these dynamics p. And of course, he's he's not dealing with, as we see not up a minor case, but a very, very important major case of life and death, and yet at home he's this call I it guy and what I found interesting to see maybe can tell the story of his wife was seven day Adventists. But what was how was John Mcarthur, despite what his wife wanted him to do? Sort of in that customer to his character? yeah. That's an interesting, interesting question. I hope I understand nice day. If something else remaining, let me know, but basically yeah. It's far as being a some say, he was agnostic, but he married this woman who was very strongly.

This is really very strongly in the a lot know. Some is essentially the. Of guys going into the whole thing. One of them important aspect of it is the seventh day. Saturday. Being this, not only the day they worship, but having lot of rules and restrictions that it. You can't watch tv from Sunset Friday, night to sunset Saturday night, but he this way and he was okay. You know very much going on with that, except he would not give up. I Sid Caesar the the boxing matches and in particular Nebraska football, so he's like all right. I just get those things:

and you know everything else. I will follow along with the seventh Avenue S, religion and he would always go to you. Wouldn't go to church, except when Saturday fell on Christmas, so it's like once every seven years or something like that, but yet he had his own kind of you eat. You know where he was almost more spiritual than her, because he was you use very that I'm very spiritual and kind of his own way, but he kinda held its own religion. If that makes any sense. Yeah and another testament to his character to- is that he did. He spoke out against the communist agitators in the terms of the paranoia about it and called it. For you know a group of bullies just damaging people. So he was a guy that really had a lot of tegrity so yeah. It really defies the stereotype of what people immediately think of now, when you talk about you know long,

murder trial lawyer, yeah, that's exactly right! Yep Carty is amazing because you know nowadays, people look at that and yeah of course, Mccarthy's the bad guy, but at that time, with a lot of people forget is that he was actually the popular one at that time and to speak out against them was there very unpopular, but that was something my grand father he didn't mind. Being in the minority. If he felt something was right, he stood up for it and and usually was proven right in the end now. You also talk about, of course, your father and because he has a role in this story as you do, and, and also John Junior and so tell us about life with this again important lawyer, but then very reserved kind of person as well and Like you say you come from a family of attorney, but yet you did not want to be attorney

tell us about the your, your father and his brother and living under the with John our senior yeah. You know it's funny that you don't you don't Sometimes we don't really recognize the elements of my great grandmother lived to be over one hundred and she wrote in a covered wagon Traffic and people ask her about it and she goes is just living. Are you fascinated by this and 'cause, you know we grow up with this stuff. We don't he was one of the Beatles even said. You know. Somebody asked me what it was like being a beetle in 'cause. I don't know, what's it like not being a beetle, you don't eat recognize this stuff going around you, especially when you're younger and now that I'm older and I really started researching this stuff, I'm like, oh, my god. I wish so much want to ask my grandfathers so many things. Is at the time you know what would impress me was he taught me how to slurp spaghetti to me. That was the big thing of you know about him and

but you know now realizing all of this stuff and- and you know me with my dad- was just more the usual. Kind of you know growing up with them and being as a teenager, you know rebelling and river. In this or that, but you know then realizing all we always later on. All my god. Look at all these, the other things that he did and I really love the story between the two and then my my uncle who actually lives. I mean like at the moment both my dad and and Uncle John still live here, the dynamic between the two of them. As you see in the book there, veal close in age and they kind of grew up together and you can see it. Whenever there's there together, it's one of those things where they're just you can tell they grew up together because of the the the little communication, without even needing to say very much. So yeah? You know it. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of exciting things to sell. I even worked at the law office and was surrounded by this historical stuff. I mean we in fact we have

if you get filed in the garage here in this in this box. But to me always been just oh yeah, that's the and every now, and then somebody come over and they owe my god. This is like a big part of history and I'm like oh yeah. I guess it is. You know and then Of course. I guess you ask about a lot to you know part of the reason I didn't want to go into. It was because, for one thing I've always been a story person and I think it was seeing what they do and it just how dry it is. The law is that I was not particularly attracted to it. My dad was act support of that. I kind of went away from not because he wasn't proud of what you've always been very proud of what he did, but he's very disappointed by the direction the law has gone and how it's become very much of a you know see how much money you can sort of yank out of people type of the situation and trying through the media, which my grandfather sort of accidentally for a start

but they you know they wish they could put the Genie back in the bottle yeah when he was just reacting as it and to be able to do. That is to do that in the first place, but so with that we're getting ahead of ourselves now now that very into testing. Part of the story. Portion of the story is the the incident that happens where you bring the reader really into the story. By having your father answer the phone I believe in in the home, one say again, you say it's just like any other home, so nobody you taking this for granted and realize in retrospect everybody realize in retrospect, oh yeah, we are part of the American. Now now tell us about the incident that happened and how it happened, refer

into the phone call at the home one day in. Are you still there? Yes, oh, ok, sorry I thought I lost it. Yeah yeah the, he just, but that in fact, the way it was described to me was so cash which is another reason why it took me so long to write I could have written this years ago, but I you know just recently as road, because so much of this, the stuff with Megyn Kelly to me and yeah, you know I picked up the phone and there was this death threats there are, they even said a necktie party? You know waited for me

I probably didn't even understand the first few times I I heard it but later on, I'm like wait a second. You were sixteen and getting a death threat, yeah yeah, you know, and then it's going to change the subject, whatever so yeah a number of these incidents, which are really like major historical incident. I've just kind of grown up with, and he just said you know set it like it was it's no biggie. I mean basically with in terms of the story itself. He just got home from school and answer the phone. Somebody just said you know let your dad know the, a necktie party waiting for him up here and Bennett and hung up, and my dad was like. Oh, I know what case my grant my my dad just a decline of a kind of a thing and then, for whatever reason they they are from the way to describe it. It sounds like they didn't. Take him too seriously. I guess they they knew. The no way was actually in a combined with the new people are really angry. No, I think it's time to at least acknowledge that will say what is

The story that the media has I'll put out and we're and we're at the beginning of this murder spree so tell us about how the is developing, how it in the media is naming the story and how it's sort of perceive again. It's in the entry we talk about how it just terrorized in Nebraska. If people are, can go back fifty five year. Also it is at least a time of perceived innocence and to a certain degree. It certainly was in terms of now you have a serial killer, Anti heroes or heroes or humanizing serial killers on television programs, but take us back to what this effect was prime actually was and how it was reported, yeah you know it at the time. Essentially, it was what's going on. There was so much fear and nobody really knew you know what was going on, but then, when

they actually one of the things that made that I'm kind of innocent was sort of this trust in the police and the police. Just said this is what happened. It was just sort of taking for granted. Well, that's what happened and the police had really made some major Thanks for one thing that really struck weather had murdered somebody the year before and there had been plenty of people who would set your point direct from the finger directly at Charlie in the police enough all shut up and now that Charlie was out killing more people. I think there was a realization. Oh man, we screwed this up. We need to kind of cover this up, so they kind of started perceived saving it from their own direction and they, you know at a certain point, we're just like well Carol. Seagate is with them with and we have a you know, an arrest warrant out for her and all that sort of thing, even though she was leaving clues behind for them to follow, with which, once again, they made mistakes and did not follow them, etc. So they kind of came over the whole thing of

she's she's his girlfriend and she's with him willingly, etcetera, etcetera and, in the end, when she actually escaping Charlie, the it was reported that, but with that that the Baltimore captured when, in fact, actually she he ran away from Charlie and gotten into a police off his car and was the reason that Charlie was captured the police rather than reporting that they started no no, we captured both of them and they realize you know. Well, we already put out an arrest warrant for her it'll, be you know to embarrass for us to say well for us to essentially say well. We were wrong about this, or whatever I mean I don't want to go too much into their heads, the basically they, even though the MAX were changing and they were realize or they're realizing. They were wrong, but these things they didn't change it. They just continue to tell the papers. I know they were together willingly. They did all this together, stuff together and the newspapers and fortune

I did not really investigate further it. It was more x more of a what you call it as more of a sellable kind of story to say this is the new Bonnie and Clyde, so the it was for a splash all over the headlines. This you know the the the the smart there's a couple was together and they were out doing these things and Carol was not even allowed to see these newspaper. She she thought she was being brought back to Lincoln to testify against Charlie, and instead you know whenever any newspaper reporter would come up to her is kind of protected from the one. Ever again she thought she was being protected, but it turned out. They were right after class, you know and and continue on you know. So why would why we, your boyfriend or whatever told her story, didn't get out and tell long into the you know. I've case was going along and she didn't even see what they were reporting for awhile. So the story just got out oh yeah,

boyfriend girlfriend went out on a murder spree together, even though the truth was much more complicated. Well, let's, let's go back because if our audiences and it's used I I'd be surprised. So, let's, let's go back a little bit in terms of because I really. This is a your book is really about one of the most important try And you really do make it crystal clear why you make it easilly ics, us a lot of people, don't like so the monotony they would say of a trial or some of the tedium or some of the repetition. But this is a trial where. There are very important issues and you bring those out very easy, it's very easily understood. You have to be a lawyer for this, so we want to go back this. There are always two versions or three versions of stories in there which essentially this is the legal issues that that really are pervasive. Through this in

thing to keep her in jail for eighteen years and and and can victor in the first place, it's much harder to win an appeal. Then it is that once you have that conviction, it's much harder to get that overturned an appeal. It's appeals are very seldom six possible and they don't retry a case- people think well, maybe they're going to go re examine the case, but it's not really exactly what they do. So, let's go back in terms of what the murder spree was exactly how many people were kind of Crimes were involved because it hinges on you know: things like her family and if she knew and when she knew and and and prevent all you provide all this information. So let's go back and and tell a little. More of the story of the murders themselves and then the cap, sure of Charles Starkweather and that story that changes with the police off

Sir eventually a trial which is crucial. So, let's, let's go back and talk about some of these crimes and what the public was convinced that a fourteen year old something that's a hard to comprehend, especially outside of of America's that fourteen year old. Normally don't don't this kind of we don't consider them adults at fourteen years of age, we might have a problem with their crime, but we don't and immediately. Assume that they're adults and so tell us what this fourteen year old was supposedly had done with their own family. In these other talk about the murders, please ok, yeah sure yeah. In fact. Actually I usually like to talk about it from the point of view of what what the public now because it's the it's, it's very easy for me to just say about health, one of you for that, but you know a great race on, but I I understand that you know what the what provable it on, what I usually prefer that to

goodbye and essentially in nineteen, fifty seven in December, a gas station attendant was murdered. A lot of people pointed the finger at Charlie. That was more than enough evidence that he had done it, but the police never even charged him. In fact, they never anybody with it. Then, at the end of January, one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight, what is known as the Carroll forget went to school. She went home at the end of school, walked home with somebody and then disappeared, and for like about a week, she in charge They were were inside. This home, nobody knew so basically what happened to him, oh by the way she ended like I say she had broken up with him a few days before this happened. Several people came visited the home. She always showed up at the door and said everybody is sick, with the flu and go away even put a note on the door that, where she said everyone sticker

flu stay away and at the end she had signed. Miss Bartlett and the only Miss Bartlett in the home went actually because of her mother had remarried and everything Carol fill one by Fugate. Her mother was MRS Fugate. I mean with MRS Bartlett to the new marriage, and so the only Miss Bartlett was two year old daughter. You have to serve Karel, and so it was sort of like the clue and she had underlined three times Miss Bartlett anyway. So several people came and they've started realizing something's wrong. That read the nodes. They Carol had been pointing to Lightbringer hand by your mouth and pointing in the direction, and so these other people went to the police in clue being Charlie's own brother and we're trying to say, we. Becomes wrong, you need to go over there and the police just wouldn't go over there kept telling him. You know you're crazy. Finally, just sort of like did a cursory examinations or drop by then laughed and then Charlie's brother and Carol Brother in law

go to the house by that point. Charlie Carol are gone, they actually investigate. The house may find three bodies- carols mother or stepfather, and her half sister in the the chicken coop out back in the day. The step that or they have to fear is in the Out house, where the bodies of the then essentially simply the next day they discovered the body of one of Charlie's friends with the August Meyer, who

farmer way out? You know, wanted farms several that, like thirty miles, were like twenty miles east of town and then they find two teenagers in the storm custom seller like that yeah yeah. It's like a sword, so it's like this place. The people could go to you don't get away from like tornadoes or whatever their bodies are. You know down in a storm cellar area, the girl had been raped and they, the the boy just been shot and then so everybody now thinks. Okay, they are gone he's. They actually discovered some of the girl at the murder, girls, books. West of there and have fallen as if there you know in a trail going back to Lincoln, but they just got data they go well, they must have gone e and they sort of police go that direction. Then, like the next day, they discovered the bodies of this very wealthy, like one of the most well known affluent people in town named war.

I his wife, Clara Ward and then they're made all murdered inside their home. So now we can just go through the whole city. Goes ballistic because the it always did they, they thought they could trust the owner of the people that help locks off, or they didn't the doors. Usually just you know- and this is a very trusting type of place now- the National Guard is called in the going all over the place. Looking for Charlie Anybody, who's redheaded because he was he had bright, red hair was redheaded, is targeted. The gun stores emptied out immediately and yeah. If there's a gigantic panic, and then they're, looking everywhere, they're from all the sudden. It's covered up in Wyoming this fourteen year old girl runs and jumped into a police car points out. Charles Starkweather, the guy doesn't see 'cause he's stuck behind a milk truck. He looks around around it and see Charlie wrestling with somebody he's about to kill someone else. He sees the police officer jumped in his own car drives away turns out. He had just murdered. Someone else is

well, so that was his eleventh victim and they taste really down and and cap from. So that's the that's the story of the the murder three b as that the murder spree basically. Yeah and and what I had said and then we might as well explain this now. While people have this idea in their head, that initial cop did not go after Charles Start Nobody called ahead and they chased him down right. He stayed with Carol Fugate and he you very well that of the the chain of events where she ran to him and he didn't know who Charles Starkweather, where it was, or at least he didn't notice that that he didn't identify the perpetrator she did and she ran to him for for help and was hysterical and and acted like a victim either that or a brilliant actress so that very good go ahead. I was gonna, say yeah, you're right. That is the thing is she would have to have been this brilliant

trip in order to have pulled that off and later on. It was that police officer turned on her and said well. She said these incriminating things, but when you actually put it together, what he was climbing was that she jumping into his car was hysterical, dull and stopped, and when I saw him kill everybody, including my parents, then uh you don't, for whatever reason he turned around sort of thing, but she said things that when you actually act it out there's no way that that human nature wouldn't have acted. You know one gone that way. But yeah that she she was the reason he hadn't even seen by his own admission. He had no idea now. He did. He probably knew in fact he did know who starkweather words that he made it not only National NEWS but International NEWS, their newspapers in rush, brother talked about this and you know all over. In fact, Peter Jackson, for whatever reason made his move your wrote a movie in New Zealand that that dealt with the stuff.

Apparently got everywhere, but so he had heard starkweather an apparently is when in her rambling and fearful screaming. She said the word starkweather he just froze up, but it was just like Starkweather was what's the anywhere near there Lincoln was it Eastern Nebraska sky and there they are in Wyoming. You know a days drive away, so it was just like how, in the heck did they get up there any hesitated he got afraid. Finally, Charlie jumped in his car drives away yeah and he gets on his radio, like you said, called up some other people take Donna. This is one of those car chases straight out of a movie, is over a hundred miles. An hour race to yeah town there, they actually bumped bumpers a couple of times just absolutely crazy stuff before he finally gave up.

Now police are obviously anxious to talk to this guy and what is the first statements, because this is very important. What are the first statements that he makes the police, if any, tell about the first interview and what he says or what he doesn't say in that interview with police, especially regarding is Ex girlfriend Carol Fugate or how does he describe her? Tell us well, the very first thing he when he tells the stories he tells that she had no part of it and actually tells the same story that she was telling that she, Is this still pulled that day? It was actually that he'd gone. He killed her family. While she was at school, then when she got home he said well, they I haven't kidnapped. I have some friends of mine. Have them at that? You know at the, home. And if you don't do everything, I tell you that I'm going to call them up and have them kill your family,

and so she went around and yell to sort of went with them everywhere, so young, so as to avoid having her own family killed and yeah and easy you're basically described. The whole thing is just simply them going around him, killing everybody and her just kind of falling behind, but not wanting to be with them and at the same where he tells that the only time you ever told the same story twice was his initial interview and then a second interview. He told that same story, but then the thing interview. They went to him and said, oh by the way, Carol saying that you're crazy that you're insane. So would you tell me the story was that he went Oh well, let me tell you you know essentially paraphrasing, but he said well, let me tell you and then he started telling about how she had been a part of it and she had helped them. Do everything, etc, etc. But then, every time he told the story was completely, was that all that they had said to him because they said why is it are you is that he would be a crazy person? Is it with

set him off, it was a little more complicated in a little more conspiratorial than that. Wasn't it sort of it was just initially they were, you know going to him separate from you not not having any other counselor or whatever, but yeah. It was just the the the county attorney and couple others would just sort of show up at his at his cell and essentially they were there wanting it came down to. Basically they were going to be trying her as well, which, by the way they didn't tell her. They, they told her yeah. We want you to tell us about what Charlie did and then they would get all this information about her. But then, when they went to you mean, while they trying to get Charlie to testify against going to have his trial and then they're going to have for trial, and they wanted him to be the star witness at her. Smile and tell her or tell them that she did all these things whenever that when they first heard ask him you know about the story, he was

yeah. I don't know part of it may have been. My fault. Wasn't wasn't, didn't you do this into that? No, no! She, you know what had no part of it or whatever and they kept trying to kind of find out. If she had done anything like they were trying to feed him, something he wouldn't do it and tell like. I say they came by and he said essentially just said: yeah she's she's saying that you're crazy and that's the one thing he couldn't stand is. Is I mean he literally could have at least tried to get saved his life by by taking the insanity plea results also strongly about not being called in saying that he wouldn't even take the insanity plea. So when she said the you know when they thought he found out that she saying he's crazy, which she actually was, he just ballistic and was like. Okay, I'm gonna take her down with me to basically well that was a part of the story that you know they did get right in you know it all stones movie and some things in that he seemed to be really enjoying this infamy and

You know that there was. You do make a comment that he looked very much like James Dean, but with this bright sh of of or shock of hair, and these green eyes was he's about five foot five, but he was, you know, a character that again. Very much. Look like James Dean in the media played up on that, but it seems like he seemed to enjoy his moment in the limelight any certainly didn't want it in his family as well. Didn't want him to be depicted as crazy and refused believing that, regardless of it would save his life right, you know yeah, he is far as the eye he was concerned. He he just was eating it up because up to this point it always been over a low didn't make fun of and looked down upon, and you know finally, at the sort of corn quote respect and I'm in a weird kind of way I mean when he came into the courthouse. There was a DR giving testimony. Now is a doctor. Who probably has you know he

either re. I forget he was a research, DR you know, but in any event I mean he was somebody who really is to be respected, any doctors to be respected. What yet the audience wasn't looking at him in the crowd or the crowded courthouse wasn't looking at him. They were looking at Charlie when he came in and you just ate it up and loved it, and thank you It was kind of like more. I tell these stories and more everybody is, you know, eating up eating. Words, anything that I say, and so he loved these sort of thought is I'd rather have these few months of total attention in the lifetime of being looked at. On and scorned and all that was family. Meanwhile you're you're right there was a certain pride that existed, some that that, if you know, if he considered and saying well, that was you know it's gonna, more dishonorable for the entire family, and you know, while they didn't necessarily want to be executed at the same time, the only sort of death before dishonor type of a thing

and so yeah they really up against their own attorney, who wanted to use it? The insanity plea they were super very, very much Adamantly opposed to that idea. The legal aspect of this that anybody, knows the law at all. Even if you watch law and order for one season, you would know that fourteen year old is advised of her rights and in this particular case, basically what they did. Is they spoke to her without any attorney at all and in the reason why she would especially have done that, because she was under the impression impression- and they made this impression towards a fourteen year old. That she was just giving information about Charles Starkweather I, like you, say she stuck to her original story, but gave information, that later in the hands of the prosecution

turn it around in terms of incriminating and damaging evidence against her. So that's and combined with, and what I mentioned about, conspirator, Well, it seems that if you're, given a guy, a bunch, a pack of cigarettes, an extra food or special treatment of any sort to a guy that a loser, that's never had any DC Treatment in this whole life, that's what I'm talking about. They they used and it was interesting in your book too, and you could tell us about this that and father had this certain ethical code and his friend it was to take on this case tell us a little bit about that, because that's an interesting dynamic in this as well about John Macarthur, your Gran Father in this the eventual prosecutor prosecuting attorney- and in this case yeah? You know, in fact, I would say that you could put more in there about that that I I I do know that he and Elmer she'll work.

Friends 'cause. They were both been in the legal profession for about the same amount of time and had come from an FBI background and and the two really respected each other and like each other and then and then this thing came along and she'll. You know I mean it's one thing I I understand that Husky tourney have to do their job and they have to you know, take on the case that you know you, regardless of the situation they need to. You know, go from their point of view is that the thing is hard to understand about lawyers, even if they don't necessarily agree with that they they have to take on the case anyway and children. The best point of view, but shield went beyond that. First of all, he didn't even need to charge her before he knew all the information, the charger while she was on the road and nobody knew all the facts, but also he really started going with. All of this is really back alley

tactics and that went beyond it wasn't just a matter of okay. I'm going to give the point of view from this side, I'm kept on doing these kind of sleazy back back alley tricks. I don't know one idea, many unfortunate, because my grandfather was so kind of reserve. You didn't really express what was personally that went on, but I can only imagine you know here is as close to be a good friend of his that the you know that sort of doing all the stuff, and so I I can only imagine that the I mean it seems that, after that they weren't quite as close, but unfortunately don't know a lot about it, but but yeah it had to have affected their friend That's one of the reasons why I have a hard time being a lawyer, because I want one of those. My grandfather said my dad and my dad passed on as well. He said that if you take anything personally, you don't you're, not a lawyer for long and I don't think I could do that. I think I'd get so angry at some of the tricks of

people pull that? I don't think I could face them again. Yeah there's certainly a lot of politics and especially to me american legal system that the students seem to affect outcomes, sometimes negatively. You know, because yeah there's a lot more than just the case itself and a lot more than just doing your job, that when there's political motivations are so hey we getting back to this story here. Now they have now the change story. And so what is your grandfather's tactic in all of How does he first off? How does he a lawyer or regardless of of their client's guilt, will defend them to the best of the best of their ability, and your grandfather was, you know, believe in that, but often or most often, declines are killed.

So that was about this sort of transformation, or at least in the event that the you know or or tell us about the process where he ends up believing her and and which is just adds to his zeal in defending her, yeah you in and they you know, like you said at the beginning, he went in with essence of his constitutional duty that this is only because that they that essentially he acted as you were saying. Yes, this is simply represent. Somebody Rick

address of of his own personal feelings on it, and you do. It is best but visibility, five when he started right, the only third speaking with her, he started, seeing how she just very obviously had not been with them willingly and it wasn't. They have a wasn't even questionable, as just there are so many reasons to believe that she didn't want to be with this guy. I would be to be with Charles Starkweather, and he also saw how the the prosecution, which we're doing a lot of dirty tricks right from the beginning. So you yeah became very personally involved, which you know I mean for the most part, he did everything to the best of his ability regardless, but even when this, because this first one you know personal feelings on it, you know he he. It was just yeah like a a sort of personal feel to it. I think it really more came out that he would have done

as best he could but regardless, but is especially came out after she was still pronounce guilty, the you stuck with it, which he didn't actually do with other clients, and he continue to represent completely pro bono, which is why all the as you give that name for the book for for your eighteen years, just because he believes so firmly. In her innocence. I think it also actually come to think of did, I think, come through in the file 'cause. Sometimes when you look in the transcript very dry and question answer: question answer every now and then you can see a little bit of personality winds that you know the way. Somebody as at one particular point. It's it in the transcript says something like he's. You know he begins to modern he's like making objection and continues the you know usually Jackson based on one thing, but you the objection and he had like leading misleading and he goes on for like five different words and then it just says continues muttering and the judges like

no Mister Mcarthur. I can't even understand you and you could just tell he was getting very frustrated by this, be on the at the the the the level of just. This is the client for me. You know now tell us about the trial, itself a because you know part of the story is the eighteen year battle and, of course, and and This are all she should be out now of the losses certainly will be out now. Well, this this is got to work now, and so, but eighteen years ends up being a lot of failed opportunities. Let's put it that way. So, let's get back to the trial itself, because it's fascinating again, you know one of the trials of the sense,

free, tell us how John Macarthur tries to defend Carol few Gate after the media. You know basically, is probably one of the first or one of the best examples of trial through the media. What does your grand father reluctant, he agreed to do, and how does he go about doing this? And what does he actually do to rehabilitate the I guess, the character of of Carol Fugate for the public well yeah after she was as after she was taken in the There was all this speculation that she was pregnant and I mean rumor started spreading all over the place, and you know my grand father. First of all, he goes to her and she didn't even know she's being charged. You had to sort of explain it to her but then on the other side, you know: have the media wanting to get through and he's like? No, I don't want to. Try

You know through the media, I don't want to what caught you, I don't We basically did not want to start. What is you know what is happening now You know a lot of times- people trying something for the media to stay in the courtroom. He cares very much about the way the legal process work. Was going straight to the newspaper saying their side of the story and allowing the rumors to continue, and the media was even already pod, sending in a spreading. The rumors sometimes reporting it, as fact so. Finally, this woman, nine at Beaver, had been trying to get my grandfather to do an interview for her boss, Floyd, caliber and ya, like it.

He just kept on refusing. But finally, after you know, after all this time and all these different places were or spring rumors, he finally called up is: is okay, we're gonna, Do this, but we're gonna do is a press conference. I don't want to have just you know: one person: doing it I want. I don't want her to have to go through this multiple times. I'm just going to have all the media there in one person is going to ask the questions and she's like ok. You know you gotta, let my boss, Floyd Calvert, do this and to me it's one of the most exciting moments is when she says this. Actually so my grandfathers partner- and he says no, no he's not going to do it and she's like you've, got to have to work the heart of this, and I went no. We want you to do it at nine, at nine out with like this young or before I more like an assistant really, but they just trusted her and believe in her and wanted her to do that, though, all of this media across the country shows up and here's this. You know what they would consider a hick, got girl reporter in the 1950s, when women were oranges, well respected, being the one to be able to interview Carol,

and to me? As a result, my net wound up being kind of one of the heroes of the story, because she became very interested in the story. So the reason my grand father like there was like a lot of reporters, she had a lot of integrity. She was curious about the truth not about what would sell newspapers or advertising time or whatever So she really ask Carol from some good questions and Carol, ask and answer them, but unfortunately she was so kind of nervous that she spoke in a very tight kind of way, robotic kind of way, and it read to a lot of the a lot of people didn't listen to what he said. They only saw the way she said it and because she looked healthy. Well, therefore, should be on the they believe she, no now. This is also it's a press release and it's also trying to rehabilitate the public that would potentially be in the pool of jurors, which so you're, so potential juror pool to a certain degree anyway, is

is a dress rehearsal for the trial and why again, most people that follow legal trials murder trials know that you really don't put your client up on the stand. Why would he do that or why would why would your Gran Father considered doing that? Well, that's yeah! That's a really good question 'cause you're right a lot of times. You don't want to put your own client up there, but yeah. You know specially in a town, is small as Lincoln was at that time I mean we're not talking about just you know we're talking about one hundred thousand people or whatever, but it's still relatively small, so your jury pool is not going to be of a very. Like a number and that's again part of my my grandfather's ethical standards. Is he didn't want to influence the jury,

We believe in the idea they go and ignorant not knowing anything, just simply yell learning about the case there, which is why he didn't want to say anything in the press. But of course the the other side was and they were get you know making people believe certain are not actions they making people believe that they were influencing the people of the town in a certain way, so that that the jury would be made up of people who believe she's guilty. So yeah. You very reluctantly had that the press conference- you know where we're like you know a lot of the information got out and so that, as a result, you did have people leasing. The other but it backfired kind of for him because of the way she for her. It was more of a dignity thing. She did you again as it goes that whole thing of pride, I'm not going to look emotional and sad and my grand father older, don't he was afraid if you go too far the other way and become really imho also he said, hold it in while she held in so much that she always answered questions like this, and you can even see

the interview on you too. Bye have it up there with my book and she yeah. I just looked so robotic that people kind of turned against their so that in the trial my grandfather tried again and he's just like, because the the people who knew on the road. What happened where Charlie and Caroline Charlie was saying which is guilty by this point, so he the only the only witness he could put up. There was well, there are a few other people, but for the most part with girl to tell her own side of the story and also the other thing is the prosecution read the statement that she had given when she didn't know

He was on trial that she had given just telling about Charlie but as a result, certain things in the way she said it made it sound like she was a part of it, and so he put her on the stand so that she could explain. Well, no, I that's not what I was meaning I was reading this and that the other thing so that that you know that was part of why put up there. In the end, I'm unfortunate worked against her because she just sort of looked cell kind of coal. Even though she's just trying to not be emotional essentially well, the other thing is too, and I think we talked about this already, but the resting police officer that she ran to also check change the story so that it effectively didn't sound. So much like she ran to him. As he wanted to make himself more heroic and so the story. Changed well. It was advantageous to the prosecution. So how can that truthful?

we have her running to him being hysterical and again some of the facts like her insistence and You know being hysterical, but also not knowing where her family was asking about her family was her family, safer, I'll, be able to talk to my family or what about my family? So those statements were in there as well and cooperated lot of the was at the at that had gone to the house and she was rebuffed by Karel. That evidence was there. He write her grandmother. Why over grandmother, ok, yeah, who actually the police said that she was Are you crazy, old woman and she needs to leave her family alone quit bugging them. I would hear she was going to the police, saying hey something's, going on Over there and Charlie even later taunted them with that when they finally

after them, he said you know if you got me as such and such a time. None of this would happen. It is like yeah. Please call the roll of the falls a little further into the wound. Why don't you? What was the testimony of Charles Starkweather at the at the trial like it was you well first Floyd change every single time. He told it and it was essentially he he said that Carol and help them a lot of the stories that exists today come from one of these, so you make you. Can you know bay anytime? The the documentary say this is what has

you usually go to the trial transcripts which, by the way, are on the website it for a lot of dot com photo book, dot com use it yeah. You can see the source in one of his they in his testimony where essentially he's like well, she did this. She did that, but usually the stories themselves, if you follow them like he'll say what was that that she sat and watched tv while he was killing her family. But if you continue to read the is version of the story, what he says is that or that the mother came in? I was the father came in with a hatchet or something like that, and he shot him and then the mother came running at him with a knife and he did adult. So you know he did a flip like this action hero and shot her she you know, even though he shot or she continued to go at him. You know, after several shots went into her. I mean it basically comes out like a schlocky horror film, that he very clearly I've all this from any. He tells all of these ridiculous stories. The prosecution's and answering these things,

would just kind of let him go through it or they would kind of lead him through. You know a version of the story, then my Grand Father would- Up there, and rather you wouldn't mock him or anything, but he would have you know he's like oh wait, a min, then you say this earlier and then Charlie then tell yet another story- or you kind of you know, run him through the elements of these things, the more absurd that got the more my grandfather would die. I have him go well further. You know it was initially dig a deeper hole from self all. We did that on. Well, then, what you know how they do this and then after awhile, just gonna, reveal Women is in all of this impossible until, point which Charlie actually kind of quieted down, and just you know at even kind of admitted that what he had done was wrong yeah. It was interesting to that is that he was that your grandfather did not ask to be

him as a hostile witness, because he wasn't at some point, just refused us answer any questions. I've actually never heard of a trial where someone didn't compel the person that answered the question tonight right. All of that talk about this and incredible act. It's an incredible trial where you know you hate again, like you say you hate to be biased, but you prevent you present the in nation, and it really is a travesty of justice. This trial really is that they have a foregone conclusion and they're making it fit, and that's it because the testimony when your grandfather shoots holes in the in the testimony, it seems, like the jurors, never heard that so they really didn't weigh in again the information away. You know anyone actively that looks at those transcripts. So they were affected at the trial by something and maybe preconceptions in the first place or the prosecution and because

present the case that everybody, you know, your grandfather fought very very hard to present a good defense for Carol, Fugate and yet tell us what the conclusion was. Obviously well, yeah its its first off that thank you for that. It's just nice to hear people saying that when they look at it objectively and it's that's, why actually offer the transcript is like okay, look, I know I sound bias was on the front of the attorney but really look at this objectively and it's hard not to see it as a like. You say it travesty of justice in the end yeah they pronounce her guilty and when the juries If your members were asked, you know what do they base it on. They said she looked guilty as We have to haul it was. It was just the fact that you know she just seemed guilty to them, even though the facts were really all in her favor

I the only person who a line there were, there were like three things of testimony into the Charlie's, which I mean. How could you believe anything? He said the one police officer who I I can understand wanting to believe a police officer, but I mean when you really reenact what he says happened. It's physically impossible, and this one this one woman who says she talked to. I was the wife of one of the police officers who are sheriffs, who, who talked to Carol privately in a car with no one else present with all the windows up and she says well. This is what she said and when it was never cooperated and it goes against everything else that has been said so really. There was really nothing to base it on, but yet they yeah. They did in one of the jurors had actually bet made a bet that she would be found guilty. You know it gets more and more absurd, so yeah she was found

guilty and then yeah, my grand father just said: I'm going to stick with her and tell I can get her free now. The significance of this, too, is that often I want to make this We are too because when you hear pro bono there reasons why some lawyers would take a case pro bono, not not too, you know the flector denigrate that service for free because it's a great expense and a lot of work and lawyers don't typically work for free. So there is that flat master angle there that has to be taken and the consideration, but a lot of people will do a pro bono case, because it's a high profile case, oh they don't have death threats against them and it's going to do something for them in terms of business with clients such as the client they're, just they're, defending for for without any fees that wasn't the case.

With your grandfather. Was it in his career? No, actually, he he wasn't volunteering or anything. It was just that he was assigned the case. Actually, the the judge's son recently approached me and said that he would if he had been actually trying to get his his partner male relative, the the you know the the attorney, but rather was out of the country on a safari. My grandfather's happened to be there and got the case. Is that okay sure I'll take it and was actually offered a certain pay, but in the in this part of the case for war of in the back at that time, I guess the didn't reveal how much they were going to pay the attorney until afterwards. They just send them a check, a for some reason and they send a check that was half the amount that they had paid each of Starkweather's to attorneys and by the way they allowed Starkweather to have to

journeys when it came to Carol, they did not allow my grandfather's partner to help right now he's willing to allow one attorney to officially be involved in this case, which means you would not put that happen out, but be dictating after they, the judge. Did they try to use that on appeal and so the young. So when the judge determined that you know how because of course need to start with and if you get could could afford an attorney, so they were, you know being given that, given them yeah average the yeah, these acts of the page yeah start with his two attorneys twice a month. So in the my grandfather got that it's not that he was, so much like. Well, you have to pay anymore, it's just. He was so insulted by the way where they were treating him the fact they didn't let his partner in there the way they had treated Carol that he just was like I'm not even going to catch that and his partner ended up cashing in using it for rent for the building. But my grand father was just like I'm just not even going to take that and I'm not going to ask Carol for any money. I'm just going to

representar. From now on that was you know. That's I mean he. He was a point then I know when, when you're appointed you're not getting the same fees, that you would be able to charge, or you would charge, a private client that had money and and- and that was great- that that point that you made to because it was fraction of what he deserved and and we're not talking a lot of money. I think you put the book there was fifty six hundred bucks or something- yeah a long time ago, but we're talking about incredible amount of time, and when I talk to a pro bono was the eighteen years and his personal involvement, and when you talk about Supreme Court stuff and filing all of the things that you need to file if it's more complicated more time consuming, so we're we're and that's what I'm saying that to make the difference is that some law where is- will do things completely for free, but then again, there's a vested interest in why there there's a

in what they're doing that and that's for further business that does pay. So that's not that wasn't the case with your grandfather at all. What is it now? In fact, he was trying to keep the press away from him. He did not like the idea that that was so highly publicize and everything, and I think that was one of those. That was the reason he was appointed to lease. I heard that was the case that the judges simply knew that he, even though the judge did a lot of the things is well, it is ultimately he knew that my grandfather wouldn't take advantage of it and try to further his own means by you know: Rep within her, though right, no, never so go ahead. I was just going to say real quick. I apologize but yeah he to his credit. He never used it as in any advertising, never even would help people. Oh yeah. I was Fugate's attorney. He just you know, went on and even if his movies were made an altar thing, he never you

is it true that manage or anything you just went, ok, well, something I did well yeah, that's humility! Now the thing is we want. Have enough time to be able to go through. Why on earth they weren't successful at all kinds of You know the state level and then the federal level with appeal, but maybe we can just say that for those that are going to pick up the book that what they can account or is that there are some legal points that that keep arising to be able to keep her in prison. And one of those is that it's again it's a little bit flimsy in light of all the evidence we spoken about. But you know it is a common question. Is that why didn't you just leave and so one of the legal issues is that there were at least by someone's testimony, sometimes by Charles Starkweather's, testimony that she didn't leave now Five years later, though we we've had Patty Hearst back in

I don't know the eighties or the 70s, and We certainly have other people that we've been kidnapped and held hostage and then went out and did certain work or chores or go to a store with their captor. So we understand more the psychology, obviously of of what happens in in trauma and then there in people's inability, a battered woman syndrome, which is especially it's quite successful of a mini case, in Canada, but in United States as well. We do understand the helplessness of some people once they've been traumatized, or again all the behavior from a psychopathic captor. But why tell us why? Essentially, she was kept in. For those amount of years legally,

and then maybe we'll we'll talk about why you think this? Actually, she was kept in even despite that. Well, we are legally, it is the first of all the brass, so really had a lot of things where they had to go through a lot of jump through a lot of hoops and leave it for him like my grand father knew they'd never get trial in Nebraska, because you know of all the emotions, ratted cetera, and then they had to go through the drive through a lot of hoops that they just simply new. Look and let's just go through the process to get out of Nebraska and just as they got to district court got out of you know getting out of Nebraska. They. Never the legislature passed a law. I forget what the name of it, because I was grew up hearing it as the keep Caroline Prison ACT. I've called something else that they literally had said when they were passing it that you want to keep a certain person in prison, so they had to go through years. More of going through these loops in Nebraska before they finally got the district court and they

sound of being turned down on that which they were very surprised about. They originally had a. Judge who had said he was going to give her a new trial and everything rubber bands help with the star of my next book. Actually I and then the Olsen you recuse himself, which we later learn, was probably because he was related to somebody work with that are working fine, my family and so this other judges and said now and then we know all the way to the Supreme Court. My ram, my my own father actually had to of the week I get asked you know to be able to do that and they got all, but when they only need one more vote and they came one vote short of getting a new trial. So unfortunately, where there

able to get a new trial, but they they wound up getting around on parole where they got it commuted. First and then we were able to get out on parole now with all the research that you've done, and I mean there's nobody that has it all gone the links that you have to be able to get to the root of this. To get to the the truth of this. Why do you believe it took this much effort? Spite your the herculean efforts of your grandfather and your father and yourself I mean everyone in your family. Why did they keep Carol Ann Fugate in for those many years? What is the real? I mean all more than anything else more than the you know that a little bit of reasonable doubt Orwell. Testimony of this person. It's a lot. You know

a law enforcement professional. Tell us what your conclusion really is. After all of this, my own personal opinion is that it started with the police who knew they had made a mistake and instead of instead of admitting, they had made a mistake. They covered up for themselves. In fact, there was an investigation being done about them about how why they hadn't caught Charlie when he had the murder in December, and I think had. I think that she was the key because she had given them so many warnings and as an innocent child was just saying. Why didn't you catch this? Why didn't you catch that and if she, not found it, they needed to discredit her and because, if they didn't discredit her, she could discredit them and so I think they really went after her and then once they had done that their word became became.

Law. Well, I don't want to see the law, but there were became the truth and everybody is kind of believe them and took him out the word and then it's just gotten into the national kind of vocabulary, if you will in that the storage is get out and a lot of times. People will just repeat a story without questioning. Well, where does that come from? How do we know that etc, etc? And now people just repeat this: and the repeating Charlie's testimony verbatim without realizing where the source was from that and for now it's just gotten into the it is my dad says it. It's a it's legendary status and it's gotten to the point where people just repeating all the young Carol. We just go because of this, and this and this, and that sort of then wound up being what people believe them why they wanted to keep in prison because they have they grown to believe that she had done always or playing.

All from stories that basically began with the police going. We have to cover up for ourselves. So Charlie tell us what happened and then we'll just report. That is the fact, of course, the papers and documentaries today which have no interest in finding out the truth. As a quick example. Actually recently, there was a thing on the discovery channel where they came and interviewed both my father and I for a documentary. They were doing called yeah women killers or something like that anyway, and we gave them all with files of stuff mean things that people would usually love to have, and I get in there disc of the entire trial files of information, not just from our point of view, but this I was like here. This is the actual original objective from the trial from the court go ahead and do your investigators work

and they just they didn't, do any of that. They just went out and we're like. Oh well. This is what happened and they just repeated what Charlie had said and made up stuff themselves as well. So that's why I think that's what capture in prison and that's what kept people just repeating the story that they want to believe And, what's your personal opinion feeling about Carol Ann Fugate period. Oh, how do you consider her? I consider you know she's I've known are. You know I mean I've been in and out of contact for years. I haven't really had much contact over the last couple of decades, but very sweet person. The way that people have described here, I think, is the way I would always describer is very timid,

She, you know they dine at B reporter it like she would be. If you, the person, would be afraid of her own shadow and while I don't miss a thing, she's afraid run shadow anymore, but she's she's a very kind of him. Quiet kind of person, and while I know that kind of person can be, you know those him that people can be killers. At the same time, the specifics of what people said that she did it's like. Well, no, that's not the type of, and you know he just said that it doesn't go with her character if she, if, for whatever reason she was a killer, she would have done the specific things that people said that you've done. Eighty would have just been. You know different. Essentially I I just come back. It get get from this, that she was a very strong woman and and the strength came from partially or not partially, for the most part from your grandpa in terms of someone believing in her really believe

in in her 'cause. You gotta think unbelievably a fourteen year old facing life in prison or the death penalty. The ex boyfriend, who you told the hit the road Becomes your captor, your family is dead you're, the most revive Person in and out of prison, very few people. Believed in her at all. And yet this woman stayed in prison, didn't have any infractions against her and still looked. With hope for the future better herself, and I don't know I mean you just make the case, but from all the info. This is in all the evidence that I've seen is that she was a victim, an innocent woman, but yet the dignity that she had to acquire, and it did she did exude through this into The thing is that she is just an amazing character. I'm sure she does. Need any accolades from me,

from television or rewriting history she just got on? with her life but very interesting, strong character? Certainly That's you know, that's a really good point. I guess you know when I say to him and that's kind of a. If you know the way I was saying is sort of a shallow way of looking at it because, yes on the outside, certainly she looks very timid, but what, She went through you're absolutely right to have kept the faith that she did and she she never got a single I just learn a right up at all in in your prison, which was a record up to that point. Nobody had ever done that before in eighteen years or seventeen realities of the years that she was actually in the present never got was was written up for a single disciplinary thing. Despite I mean, imagine no she's going through and she was going through her rebellious teens, but yet she never broke and she kept the state for all these years.

And you know even now, she's gone through tragedies. She actually was just in a car accident where her husband, she finally did get married. After all these years, her husband died and she's been in the hospital, and but you know, of course, when we would get when action news rather than showing facts and everything this showing footage from natural born killers and saying yeah, the the influence for natural born killers, with an accent and just what all the rumors and you know, but yet she's your stay strong and she continued to. I have heard you know strong character showing in the you there's a lot to be admired there she's really at this. Phenomenal woman, but, like you say in the in the introduction in the prologue that this really is most not about Charles Starkweather, it- is about the american judicial system, and you know in Nebraska judicial system, the and little town called Lincoln, it's about Caroline Fugate and her

the battle, but it really is about the law and and really a reminder of what the law can do, an what it should do, an what it is- and this is just a fascinating, fascinating murder trial, an in a real slice of American. True history, and it just happens to be I don't know if true crime. This is just history to Maine and just a fascinating story. And I want to thank you very much just for coming on and talking about it today. If obvious This book is available through Amazon, Barnes and noble, and but tell us a little bit more how people might contact do and if you got a website or if they tell us, will give us a little bit more for about you and how people might more information or a personalized book or something like that. Tell us for sure yeah you can go to the website is W W w dot pro bono

book dot com, and it has also more information about the case that minutes even in the book. Well, I think I just the additional information. So what's in the box for graph ultra thing and you ordering information on there. You can write to me. You can also download the original transcript or has that first hundred pages, and then you can write to me and I can send you you know. More of those. My other books are on bandwagon online dot, com and yeah. And of course, like you say it's on Amazon, you can order the physical book look at it on you, readers, you know, and on there and Barnes and Noble one. You know all basically, all of the readers Yeah great yeah and then it's just a really fantastic book and uh some great old photos as well that you've included in yeah very, very interesting, and I want to thank you very much Jeff for this and hope to hear from you again real soon. I know.

Working on another project, and so what? What? What is that about? Exactly about the largest bank robbery in history? And in fact, actually, you were saying about the politics. It's a day, I was the thing about this earlier when you're talking about the politics of county attorney, because it's it goes more into that there was a The guy before she'll was even more colorful and kind of ran, Lincoln. The way Capone ran Chicago I and- and it really goes into the politics of how 'cause he wound up, again. It was one of the things of getting three people who weren't guilty. They were. Innocent 'cause actually were bank robbers of a completely different heights, but they, rather than getting the bank robbers that actually had robbed their bank. They instead got these other people, which told did specifically because he wanted to be re elected as county attorney, subculture so yeah. I really goes into more specifics about the about the politics of of the all the sort of stuff

so any day now good well we'll go, to hear from you again real soon and best of luck with this. I know this came out in two thousand and twelve didn't yeah last year, yeah, it's so amazing, so yeah well! Thank you very much Jeff and you have a good evening and hope to hear from you again real soon. Thank you Dan. Thank you. Very much have a good night here, What say you just bought a house? Bad news is, you are one step closer to becoming your parents, you'll, probably mow the lawn and ask if anybody noticed you mowed, the lawn tell people to stay off the lawn, compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again good news. Is it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive and save on your car insurance, which

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