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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Daisy K every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killer crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan asking. Good evening, this is your home dance of asking for the programme to murder. The motion can killers and true crime, history and the others that are written about them when the infamous gangster whitey boldly.

When can your fixed income stand the test of time markets changed, but the role of fixed income sh, and that's why, for more than forty years, Mfs has stayed true to our traditional approach. We call it essential. Fixed income find out more at mfs dot com, Slash fixed income, the Lamb in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety five, the streets of Boston became award zone between the mafia, in the renegades with the Winter Hill gang. Looking on rogue mobster, the untold story of Mark Silverman in a new England, Mafia, chronicles the inside story of the Boston MOB wars of the 1990s. When over two dozen gangsters were killed in a vicious war for control of the Then underworld, rogue mobster is told in the world of Mark Silverman, an outsider from Medford who got inside the mob and became an integral part of the ensuing war. His account is the first ever inside glimpse into what went on at the street level

why people were killed and what the stakes really were. Silverman grew up in the shadow of Whitey Bulger Howie Winter Raymond Patriarcha and Jerry Angelo bosses abortions, most infamous climb families with a Jew which last name is opportunity, should have been limited in Boston's. Irish italian underworld, but he moved up quickly. Gaining acceptance across the board Silverman was made in the patriarch are the patriarch of family as reward for infiltrating a renegade mob faction back by New York family. The book begins with a unique history of the Boston Gangline scene and takes the reader right up to the late 1980s, silver memory counts the shifting alliances and friendships that were torn apart as the various mob factions battle for control of the Boston underworld through the early 2000s. Rogue mobster is a first hand account of the vial

the mob wars of the 1990s. When bodies were piling up across New England and Mark Silverman was walking a tightrope between Winter Hill and the mafia out the book this evening over featuring is Rogue a mobster with my special guests mark Silverman and Scott Diti. Welcome to the program, gentlemen, and thank you to agree to this interview. Scott marked Silberman and Scott E g by driving son now appreciate it. Thank you very much. You're welcome, uh, I'm pretty thirty four audience here. Another we'd normally don't do too many stories mob stories, but this is a very good. Heading one, and I am with this inside access that we have here. This is a kind of unique even in this sort of genre. So let's get right to it, please, Whoever wants to go first here, maybe mark. I would think. Maybe you can tell us

but the setting for our audience where exactly this is in Boston. What kind of neighborhood this is. What's the make up of the neighborhood? Let's maybe even set the year what year the story begin. Basically and what was the mood there at that time. Take us back. This is area in Boston where the story is set and take us back. Please well There's a couple of neighborhoods that are involved mostly in this story and one of the was called Winter Hill and that's in Somerville MA and that's a that's, a dominantly irish neighbourhood and itself notorious for the strength of its organized crime. But there's also the north end of Boston, which is mostly italian and those two groups are into will tell his story and that's kind of where it began begin right around one thousand, nine hundred and eighty nine around that time. When

the patriarchate, crime film. We actually had an internal war, because the family split into two factions and one of the factions was a renegade faction from within the family. In other words, these guys got together and they wanted to make a play for power. They wanted to take the exam lifting hierarchy of the patriarchal family, which I term Cosa Nostra and that lasted for about five years up until about maybe ninety four ninety five. And that's when the federal government came in and they took down most of the renegade faction, but in the mafia it multiplies so and those guys went to jail. Another faction that represented them came up and in ninety five, when all this stuff was clearing, as they were clearing out the

evidence of that tab, original runagate faction, Whitey, Baldur and Frank Cadillac salami. They were the two leaders mighty bowed her, of course, being a leader of the Irish MOB and Frank Cadillac, salami being the leader, of course, in Austria, when the indictment down for those guys and ninety five. They both I could go on a whim and Frank Salami last, seven months on a whim and thou waiting, larger? As I'm sure maybe your audience know that maybe you know he laughed at all seventeen years on the unaware. So my point being, is that during that time, when the two main leaders were on the women unaccounted for it, beginning all out fight for power, people try to fill the void, and that's that's pretty much where I came into the scene. Ok we're going to we're going to go, switch to Scott Diti and ask him a question. I'm really curious about how he how you became involved with this project, Scott and why it was

Interest to you as a as a writer, and you can give us your ground. If you like, I would like to hear that in and tell us why this story will compel due to write this book and tell us where that women, where you may that decision and why fell asleep, yeah Similarly, I start again interests and organised crime and and right start right, some articles on line on the web back late nineties, early two thousands and then wrote my first book cigar city mafia, about the Tampa underworld in to get him out one thousand and four about a year. After that I got an email from mark. You know had been approached a lot of people, I've written a few books since then mafia. I get approached by people fairly regularly about writing stories, and you know how was involved in this decision is one

and more context mean I thought he had a really interesting take on it number one marks only a couple years older than me. You know so he's pretty young, so that was one thing you know hear something I can relate to. This is not some guy in his 80s. That's calling stuff that happened way back when, but you know for all the exciting stuff that had been going on in Boston. There really hadn't been a lot of a lot of the books and bought with Boston, organized crime dealt with Whitey Bulger exclusively, and there was so much else going on that just wasn't Holden here's a guy who had a really cut off now we're all outside looking in, but he was inside. Looking in and he had a really good perspective on it, and it was just a really good story- the one. Other thing I liked about is Mark doesn't pull any punches in dealing with what he did?

It's not like. You know what was me. I was in this life. You know he's he's pretty frank about his involvement and what he did and that you know that's kind of a refreshing change of pace from a lot of these mob tellers that hurried, ok, now mark. Use kind of skipped ahead a little bit in the book for anybody sort of listening in our audience. So I'm going to just ask you to take. Take us back to how the heck you became involved in organized crime. Why organized crime seem attractive to you? Obviously, Most people in our audience are going to be saying. Well, you know, how did you do this? How did how are you influence to become a gangster? Why would you want to become a gangster, and you know what kind of environment did you grow up that this was an option for you? So tell us a little bit about that. Take us back back in those days. You know I was. I was an impressionable kid, and

I had grown up in the greater Boston area in Medford and Somerville, and I even as a t teenage right, always seen these guys and the end. I was no different than most kids. I mean I was. I was running around with the street tops and I was I was these guys is maybe your guys, a garbage back the guys who got things done guys. Data was somebody's in our neighbourhood and I was in high school. I was pulling off some petty crimes and I was making some decent money and I want to call for a year after that, but tat I was living the winter, your neighborhood, a bar of Massachusetts, in that that's actually in some of the right to choose, when I was living. May I begin by meeting some very, very high, ranking winter whole gangsters, and I actually begin to get noticed by some of the senior members of the gang. Some of the guy does it have been around a long time and some

I really looked up to so I was kind of torn between toy stay in school or do I do I make this transition into why this life because at that age, and not really thinking about your future, you saying wow, you know this is this looks like it might be. You know it's it's it's instantly gratifying. You know at least that's how I thought, but I began as a driver for raw the guy that I'm speaking of one of the old time members of the gang and that he took me under his wing and he took a liking to me in the excuse me He had like a grand father, grandson type of relationship, he just a lot of these all the guys, a lot of the guys that have been around a long time what they like to do. Is they like to excuse me again they like to mentor the younger guys. They see, I mean they're, not going to pick just any random guy up. Street but tat. They saw something to me that the they thought maybe the groom, make it like a piece of Calais that they could mould, and I I don't know,

hope they manipulated me or I was a willing participant, but I eventually begin driving and collecting some shylock money from some of their operations. I could they started in. Do sing me around town for some real heavy hitters- and I was a young kid- and I was I was awestruck I was like you know this- is our this list looks like It is really something good. So at that point that there was no more go back to school, my school was gonna, be on the streets and thou. At that, when it started to grow, I mean I became I became. I became the guy that they they became, that they began relying on. I mean I was nineteen, twenty years old and I'm going out collecting envelopes for guys that are notorious in the Boston underworld. I mean legends and you know I I played the game, I enjoyed it and I began to grow the you're talking about you mention it prior predominantly in a book about the distinction between

it went on here the renegade faction. You talked about and alluded to. We will talk about that in a little bit, but this is Lacosta Nostra. These are Italians and for anybody that doesn't know about this at least legend. Has it anyway that Italians want to pick I tie and so that they can trust, come all the way back to the old country to make sure that the guy's good? How? What what was your family like? What was your parents and your family like that? You were in this kind of neighborhood and did that have any influence on you getting involved in organized crime, your family, it's in your background, your environment. You grew up in a absolute baby, I mean I, I have a jewish last name, but I'm actually half Sicilian, and that's that comes from my mother's side and my mother's father, my Grand father was he was actually in italian gangster, but his brother, my uncle, was in

irish gangster, so it was kind of a mix. On my father side it was irish, so it's kind of like a sport, this boy, goodbye, you're, my immediate family. I had all these ties to organised crime and that it was gonna crazy yeah you're right about the italian thing, absolutely, but in Boston. I don't know if you raw, you listen is familiar with this, but that in Boston it was actually more like an irish thing because of you know, God just like Whitey Bulger and guys like how we went there and Joe Mcdonald and those guys but yeah they they they were part of Cosa Nostra to a point it all.

But tat they they hold their own in it. It's a very it's a very unique situation and now in the Boston area. So that, though, the kind of like my family routes and you talk about the patriarchal to being part of liquids in Austria was fully explained that he had enough respected when he went to New York. He did he had some influence, yet he sat down. These people, so he sat down with the biggest mafia leaders in America or in the world. Well yeah. He actually, you know there was a 60s irish gang war, Originally. This was way before my time, obviously but Raymond we are at the end that war he threw his support behind the Irish Winter Hill Gang, and that begin, that was the beginning of a love hate relationship between the Italians in the Irish. But it was because of Raymond Patriarchate and the power that he wielded. As you said, as you alluded to its, he held this

see you in the National Commission. He he was the ceo. I've been away the mafia, and yet he was he was the leader of Cosa Nostra. But because he was backing up the Irish during their internal power struggle that they had in the 60s they actually merged and he took a real liking to desires. Irish guys and you combined two together and you get a very strong, very strong army Bell Scott. What was the what was the research is entailed in writing this book. How did you go about getting this information from a mark mark? Did the user recorder? Did you write stuff down? You guys have conversations you had said you already done a fair amount of research, so so tell us exactly how this came about. This account sure it was a couple step

Is there one of the things mark had already written down a lot of just notes and ideas and memoirs if you will kind of unstructured and you sent that to me and I would help him formulate the story getting his side of it and then I go back and check it and fill in some gaps with official record, if you will law enforcement reports, congressional hearings, newspaper articles busy and articles talked to some people, MOD historians and other authors and other sources and then I got up to Boston, a visitor with mark and he drove me around. The neighborhood. So I can get a feel for that area as well and recorded some conversations with him, and

so it was kind of like a little mix and match of a few different styles but market, a lot of really good stuff written down that that he had produced over the years and keeping track of this great story. 'cause it. It is a little complex. So you know what we want to do is really just get make sure we got the narrative street, but you don't want to fudge the facts so just. And I think it comes off the way we did it and really in a chronological fashion, you really get to see all manipulations and the switching sides and all the crazy that was going on and I'd be a market. We did a good idea, good job, I should say of arm rely on that Do I really thinks will agree to is that you know everybody that data the reason my book,

Organized crime book is been affected by Goodfellas and Sopranos and, of course, the godfather right everybody I mean there's just no one on earth that hasn't so you know you still get. Those visuals big, because it still otherwise silly to most people, it really isn't normal or regular or even comprehensible. You know so, but what's really interesting. Is that because Mark has this inside access? I've never read a book like this. That has the intimate details and we'll talk about that as well, now mark what's interesting in this book, I've heard you know you talk about to the trail that there's no loyalty the way these guys get each other bump on the mouth is basically their best friend, the other guy. They can hang out with them and you said: listen you learn early on that discuss a guy hangs out with you doesn't mean he's your friend, but what I was talking about to the audience was the

the intimate details of the BT rail in terms of relationships and that's what runs a theme through this book as well, which is says, adds more humanity. To this thing now tell us just a little bit, then again, we might be jumping up a little bit, but tell us about this very, very important figure in your life, Maria and tell us who Maria is how you meet her, who she is just introduced who Maria Place and when and how you came about to meet her well. One of the very first people that I started out with in my own crew, there's a guy named Bobby right now, an Bobby was a few years older than Maine. And he was like a study. Was no, you made point about friends in the mod I mean we piled around every day and we know considered best friends or whatever, but

and the more we really have associates, but Maria was actually be on again off again girlfriend of him and when he went the present what the prison, when the war really kicked off in there, I was kind left on the street to fend for myself, eight wow. He went away Maria started to get him to contact because I thought this dilemma Bobby was trying to use her to see if to see. If I- I make it a bad thought out and see if bar because I thought maybe she might be a spyware. My boy did, you know when you president know you're your friend, you're gonna get a? U wormwood he's on street. I mean you're thinking all kinds of crazy things. I mean you want to get as many people as close to him as you can in the I had the mutation for raw sleeping around with some of the enemy guys girlfriends agenda, the waiter gone

besides, he was serving a five to seven year, prison term and he asked me he said that of all the Will there he says you: can you keep an eye on Maria and are right? There was a red languages is that of all the people. You gotta help me keep an eye on your girlfriend. I mean you know my reputation, so I kind of thought it was. He wanted. He had heard a fee to see if I would betray him, because in my mind I felt as though he'd already started to betray me. This is what you were speaking of two with with the friendship your best friend isn't. Shifting alliances and all of that stuff. Is that at that point that I will just when I met Maria. Him and I will just words and each other, because I thought, but though he was on one side of the war and he felt ass, though maybe I was on the other, so you think maybe with the girl you could find out exactly where I was and that's how that became not

with a little bit about more about the this. This I mean it might be typical to you, but tell us why this there there was a split in his family. Obviously people affected well to be in families and they test out their their alliances in their loyalty. So then, why is there? What is the specific reason why this group had this renegade faction? Well, that's kind of a complex question, but the short answer on that is the fact that why leadership, when the top please go down, buyer is it or the other way, other guys are trying to step up and take their positions, and that happens you know in the 80s and it happened again in ninety five. Is I've already alluded to and what actually started it, though, was in New York. Why not John gaudy in the Semi Gravano, they made a bow

plain again being or family. They are equipped Tommy body in the big podcast Olano agenda. That was, that was a very, very touchy situation. That's the one thing you don't do is in the in Kosovo, or even going back to Sicily, especially, is that the boss is the boss. Is the boss, you know What do you like me? You don't it's it's not about him, but you you take orders from you accept the fact that he is your boss and you are to him and when they made move there. Actually been recruiting people and the other five families to actually make the move with them. So when that happens now, you've got uh other families that are splitting into two, because you know Guardian Gravano, basically saying that you know, if you don't come with us, you'll be considered against us. Naturally, don't try to take you out so the window

kind of followed suit, because that date am I going to say they are kinda. Your cat controls then the way the mafia to appoint to and what people saw them. God, you gotta with done that to begin because it made their power play. They thought it was ok to follow because they wanted to get they wanted to go. It may be that there will, in fact, of the matter do that that they were created by taking out beyond the boss and the boss of the Gambino family. So that's kind of how it all started, and I took a long time to really pick up steam into really make. Everything go right now that you talk about indictments the major indictment, so there's a few of 'em in this book that create Obviously, that sort of accelerates a lot of breakdowns of gangs and and

and alliances and loyalties: doesn't it when you get indictments and, like you said, Whitey, Bulger and Fellini or Fleming they took off so tell us more about the indictments. What exactly we just alluded to that this is about drug dealing, but we're going to talk about other things. You know that you were involved with as well. Tell us about what kind of crime these guys were indicted for and what happened with those first major indictment in what year was those first major indictments. What was the result of that? Well I'll. Take you to the two stages in nineteen. Eighty, four uh rap, the Patriarchate Senior died. And in nineteen eighty six, Jerry in Juba, one as brothers, were indicted and sent off the prince. So in a matter of two years you have a fan.

That has been under absolute leadership, Raymond, patriarch of being the boss of the family and Jerry, and you will be beyond the, but they are no longer in the equation. So this is around eighty six. So now usually by this time, there's problems because there's a power bi As I was saying, you know, I don't want to jump up again, but by the time one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine came about the thing that really is knighted. The war within the family was guy named Frank, Cadillac Salami was. He was saying that the new boss, around one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine they tried to kill him, shot tat. They d they learn him to a peace meeting, at least that's what he thought I was going to be in that they try to take em out simultaneously down in Rhode. Island actually happened in Connecticut, but his on the boss was clipped in the same month. So now,

as those two guys try to take over the renegades took him out there, Mr Lamy lived, he took a couple about what's in there naturally there's going to be, you know, fighting back and that that's when the family really really divided is now. Obviously the one made his loyalists a very upset. You know you did the others on the body took a shot at him. You try to convince him that it was a piece meeting. So that's what kicked off first, but as I was telling you, but if you turn up the quad ninety five, you know now you so I mean Bargia getting indict along with other guys that a high rank and figures, so it's almost like deja vu to appoint, because now there's another leadership backing you got balls. So let me that a God and ninety five. So again what happens to the other renegade

from the italian mafia? They try to fill the void and that's that we were at the sky with your research. Obviously you didn't. We were again. You spoke about doing research side by side with the kind of information mark gave you that you might not have access to with you know official records, what about the New England Mafia? After writing. This book was different than some of the other crime families that you've covered. What was different about the New England family was that little bit of flavor that was a little bit different, was seem to be interesting and part of this story. What was unique about the new in New England Mafia, there

a couple of things. First of all, the ethnic make up, as Mark said before you have that real strong irish present, which in a lot of other cities, had died out by the nineteen thirties. But here it is in the nineteen 80s nineties current in Boston, where that still going on- and there just something about the flavor like when when you go there- and you read about these guys and you see it- there there's it's kind of an intangible. Thing that you have this flavor about the New England Mafia, that's different than saying new York- it's not quite as sophisticated. It's not quite. As you know, two thousand dollars suits pinky rings. It's a little more blue collar and doing the research and talking to mark it's really very neighborhood, based it's really very ST based, which is Dick.

And a lot of the other smaller families around the country, everyone has their own little quirks and charms, but but those are the real things that that kind of set New England apart and the last thing too, is the way that it's spread out. Geographically, you have a couple centers of power, that flip flop back and forth. Like Raymond Patriarch, ran the family out of Rhode Island, but dumb no salami was based out of Boston and then you know, recent bosses, Have flip flopped between the power being either in Providence, are in Boston. So that's also kind of a unique situation that a lot of other families don't have. Then, if I could interrupt the one second So I'm just going to come right out and say this. You have to remember something too Whitey Bulger,. In any other family let

say New York, Chicago even Florida, a guy that is an irish mobster, could never become the most powerful mob loss in any city but in Boston. He had been working with the FBI since one thousand nine hundred and seventy five in order to keep him safe. The F B, I decided the best way to go about dad, was to make the Italians fight each other and whack each other out, and that's basically, they can the start of the war. I mean I've made references to the street angle of what the war was about and how the faction split, but the FBI yeah. I was creating this situation to keep bulgy insulated an insult Boston's in irish leader, but the above all boss of all bosses, was him because they were protecting him and, as I said,

he was insulated himself was meant to keep him save the major powers, though around him gotta go down, but especially Italians, the Italian. It was just collateral damage to keep him safe and they just cause so many problems, but that that's basically what it is, and it is very sad, but that that's what happened while you do say in your book and I've never read this before that. Basically, the FBI were much much 'cause. You need a lot about. You know some of the missteps of lobsters and some people will say what did they weren't so smart enough, John Gaudy Blabbin in Lhasa, guys, Blabbin and people would make light of that. But what I m talking about is the term these guys, basically did you say insulated themselves, but by the FBI, basically

knew what was going on one step ahead of everyone, so they for the played news, psychology of mobsters and then played those those bills and those paranoid kind of characters against each other and, like you say when they can protect a mobster, let him succeed and then an arrest people around them. People start wondering who is working for who and so you really do talk about how the FBI really played the mobsters one against each other sure that's and that's what has to happen. Unfortunately, because- you know if you're going to protect somebody, you gotta you clear the way you know I mean you gotta, also create you know they gonna keep they can high profile. Arrests too, and I you know. The thing in New England, as we alluded to earlier, is the fact that the Ivr

with a smaller group, so the FBI targeted the italian Cosa Nostra and they figured the best way to infiltrate them. The best way to take them down is to get a guy like bulb an irishman to give him. You may shun and help them distroy the larger group, which, of course would go into new work and go into other ethnic areas, but that was the original plan, and they seem to carry it out pretty well because, like I said that they were pretty much responsible and directly directly. However, you want to say it, however, you want to paint it to anybody, but that that that's really what caused it right now tell us a little bit more about how you rose in this organized crime. I mean, obviously we're not obviously, but you talk about working with different crews in different gang

different families and then surviving this entire entire war. Take us further take her audience further into the story where what you're doing and specifically your drug dealing, you're you're doing other rackets so tell us everything that you're involved with who you're working with once some of these people in this power vacuum and discontinue with the story of what you're doing and who you were working with, and what you're achieve in terms of your rise in organized crime, like I was saying earlier, was when I was nobody in the world. I was strictly in irish gangster and, being so close, these high level irish people week and started to understand and what was going on as far as you know, they would protect Whitey Bulger in the Whitey Bulger was taking down his own people, especially wasn't just taken

on the Italians. He was taken down the Irish as well. Now, when I was work with the high level irish people, I told you, the high level went to Hill gang members. They had separated themselves from Bulger at that point because we kind of knew you know, media really wasn't hard to figure out because, as I said, we will take this up to my my years from, like maybe eighty nine to like I said, maybe ninety four. When I was strictly an irish gangster, I mean we saw What's going on, you know we she had rackets would bulges people we. She had rackets with the Italians. In that I was. Two while bookmaking. There were long shock in some union stuff, but we're always met with resistance by bulges people, and it seems like the best thing to do is to stay away from him and that's what those guys really drilled into my head was that look it even though we all represent

the winter Hill. Gang Alger is not with us stay away from him and they are but said the words, but they never did say them. Data about was, I would the FBI, so it kind of interfere with a lot of our rackets and it it kind of gave me the heads up on it, because I was cool studies guide and they were it all why, at the eighty nine ninety one when when they got away from Belgium, they figured that the best course of action was, if you don't want to have a problem with him. If you don't want to get fed to the FBI, stay the hell away from them, but of once you know clashed but tat. You know I wanna buy racketeers rackets shared with those guys, as I was saying, and I didn't start getting with the and until LA until the second the wave of the war. As I said like around ninety five, because our by that point, as I said, algerian that Frank cattle,

the one you were on a whim and excuse me d leaders that were still around in the Winter Hill Gang, they begin introducing me to the Italians, and I I really I really did I understand why they were doing it, but they were at putting me in the at the centre of the war, because that that's kind of how bout you did it is dead like us. Said he played the Italians against each other. You know in thy these other what you guys can decide that strategies the fact it What made him successful was the fact that you know they left him alone because, as I said, the Irish have smaller group in we can't. We all know that that was the gay planted, the FBI's off. We could continue I want to stay with the Irish, because I felt more protected, because I figured that they were going to go after the Italians, but

some of our rackets overlap, each other and uh. It was inevitable. I begin working with both sides of the Italians, the rent action in the goals and out of action. Now, as you rise in organized crime, like you say, you're seeing things, people are telling you to be very cautious regarding some people, what What your relationship with what is, what there any strain on the relationship would as you go through these and you have you talk about, and I likely to get you to give a couple examples of later on in the book where you go to a place, and you have again this vibe, because you say you go to right that you know a couple guys are in jail and the guy goes into the restaurant them and he knows that these people are going to there's people going to say to these guys that are in jail. Haley. These guys are in your restaurant.

There's a lot of this one upmanship that you talk about in your book and I'll get you a little bit later to give us an example when you go in and you're intimidated, your with your girlfriend, you you you see Bobby these are. These are fascinating stories that take us far beyond the sort of you know this guy bumped off that guy and took over his racket. It seems what we've got get lots of that, but this this personal story is really. I think, something that the audience is not as accustomed to reading, so that there is a lot of jealousy and the more I mean you know, especially when. How will you right here, man, your best friend the guy? Maybe you looked up to you and he goes to jail. You know he's not living well and when made to come in and out of here from the street, I mean they're dead.

Be up in my name is saying you don't hear you're sitting here, doing them five to seven and he's out there is, with girls, he's making money he's with this one he's with Dalen. If it becomes a jealous, you sure toward it becomes where in all its, if it's you, nature. It's jealousy envy, it's it's! What the hell am I doing in here he's doing out there and and it's that what it is in the mob is everybody's trying to one up the other guy. You know you might be friends with the guy for five six years, but the whole time, your friends with him always trying to do, is play you, because he needs to make sure that he may that decision to turn on you after he know your racket had the. He knows what you don't want, because it all I'm better off alive to somebody until they know my rackets until the time is right. Until you know the res to get rid of, it would be to take my take over my errand to take over my also and that that should I began to notice in the

a lot of personal situations, especially between me and Bobby, and that's when you know we talked about earlier when Maria got involved. You know I was eyes. I saw what was going on and when you're on high demand, when, when, when you're muscle guy, when whenever we want you, like everybody, wanted the guy Bobby, you know he's got a very easily influenced in all. All someone has to do is in imprison his approach, him and say hey. You know. I heard this guy, you know your buddy mark. I I heard he's working with the Italians. I heard he's working with this one. They give it all he doesn't like it. It was just really card situation because that that's what it's all about is like you know, you don't have friends in the the other associates. Now. What can you tell us about the the time that Bobby gets out of prison and and out on a with heroic Maria, tell us about this. Fascinating story tells us

the whole playing the car waiting outside? What you told your body to do the cop later tell us the whole story. That's an amazing account. Are you talking about the beginning of the book? The no? I know you won't let the beginning know what you're talking about when when Bobby gets out and then you're with Maria and. He comes, and you have this altercation at the restaurant. He says something to her. Don't leave Maria and this I think what you're talking about is when I ran into him yeah I'm stuck between. Ah, I don't know his power. That story goes some kind of a little confuses. What thought about I can encounter. Can you be a little more specific wildly? He said he had. He had come into the two to the road fraud. You were with a friend. Are you gonna doubled

Maria there I hadn't seen Bobby and in while he comes in and then you don't know if there's going to be an altercation or not, but obviously you guys have this standoff between you and then everything's fine. But you do it to tell your your guy: hey, listen, get the girls out outside get him into the car and meet me out front in case anything happens to yourself. Yeah, that was there was actually it in a cab prior to that on Bobby's life far he was some of you have done to execute them and it took about four bullets with eyes: yeah yeah you with it he was a survivor in it all. I'm sure you would look look for somebody to blame and if anybody had a good reason I mean I was probably at the top of that list. I mean I was with this girl. They made an attempt on my

life earlier prior to that, but we were on a double date with me and another top guy. In my Michael, and we decided to stop into were a strip club and die. The four of us walked in, and I heard somebody called my name, and it was a voice that very clear to me. It was it was Bobby and now I walk in with him with the girl. Did he accused meal? By being with that, I accepted responsibility for being with them He was with another guy. He had some comma. To say about her. He was really trying to get me going and he was trying to be little her and at this point you know me and Marie are really into our relationship. I mean we're we're not just on a fling, I mean we are very serious and

I'm sure he was unhappy about almost being executed in oh yeah. He had some derogatory things to say so going up to the bar to get a beer. I got a long neck corona and they held it in my hand that I walked over to the table and I had my run. Joey legs take the girls away from the sea. Naturally, Maria is very nervous because she sees me talking one on one at this table with Bobby and another theory, his wise guy, and she sends his trouble and tries to get me going almost like? I got him going. He was trying to get into my head. He was trying to make me. He was trying to get under my skin, and he was trying to make me make a mistake. He was trying to make me lose my cool and he had some bad things to say, but that long story short as Maria kept Pekin over a cap walk and by you,

the dirty name, and I didn't like it and I walked eyes. I just got space eight April. My friend show we like the case. If we get the girls out here, I said: stop the car of wait I'll fund. I says because when I come on probably be running because so I had the long neck beer bottle in my hand. For a reason you know if something's going, but I mean I'm going to do what I gotta do, but I never really got that far and I walked out of that place and that was the end of that. Well, you you miss a little bit of it, though, because what I thought you would share with the audience is exactly what you did tell him. He. He had thought that some with blue eyes, had a kill them and you do have blue eyes and, like you say, if there was a person that may have had a motive. Well, you fit that bill. And you have blue eyes. So after he badmouth your girlfriend, you told them hey, listen, then we can have a problem here because you almost died last time.

So you basically intimated to him that you were the guy. You put that idea in his head and did you let him live, Exactly those words. May I say that for sure I said, but maybe maybe shooter, that they let you live, but I'm not sure yeah and yeah I mean I was. The prime suspect is no doubt about it. I mean I mean you know you know all about crime stories and everything like that. It's always raw. You know it's always the guy Girl, the guy's bought the girls boyfriend die, has the motive and all the way I do a blue eyes. Would you not seen it was so now? I don't know who did you? I don't know what happened with that? Could have anybody Emily bought the hit on me that was on contract by that was already from my Abbas. So other people that ETA, so it may be trying to capitalize on that see a lot of time. More to the point

scenario would be what says you're going to somebody you going to murder them. You got it tom you. What are you gonna? Do you gonna shoot them the idea? The situation would be to make look like somebody else. Did it because that way, the cops will rap Bob decades to send them off the prison and the person who really did it doesn't have to worry about. There was charges coming against him because he's already framed up somebody else, so there was a, the people who were motive, but no, I don't know I don't know who did that like the sky, but I want to ask you and then I'll it. If you can't answer it I'll get marked answer it, but when I first start looking at this book, I said: ok, well this. This is incredible. It inside axe information, sort of the access that mark obviously has by virtue of who he is. He has this incredible access to this information. Now

he was a writer and and write it haven't having written these books before you don't want to step on the wrong people's toes and, of course you want to get the story straight. That would really piss somebody off if you got something wrong was ready challenge in this book to have mark sort of, or at least some of the information to Margate did you set out. Maybe this is a bit sensitive or that to be confidential, or we may not want to say that, because that's still pending in court tell us about that sort of challenge. Yeah. You always have to be careful that kind of stuff. For this book a few of the things there's some peoples names were changed. I mean that's really one simple way of taking care. Part of that there was stuff mark, told me that we didn't. In the book you know, marks attorney, obviously read through. You want to make sure that you know a march talking about you know John Smith, the skier.

You talked about Anthony Barrino committed these crimes. You know, while he was arrested for those crimes and that's backed up, you obviously don't want to get into a libel situation, but on the flip side of that mark having inside story sometimes yeah, you can't always verified. So you have to maintain the integrity of marks accounts of it, but you don't want to just be making reckless accusations around someone. So there.

Yeah. There are certainly some stories where stuff we just either tweaked or took out or change someone's name, so you always want to be cognizant of that. It's it's certainly something I think. Even if you're writing. Historically, you want to try to be as accurate as possible and and keep that that's interesting. I just want to also make sure you know what mark gives out is stuff that he's comfortable, giving out 'cause. You know we talked a lot and I wanted, and I always wanted to make sure if I wrote something abroad, it's Mark hey. Do you mind if we include this? This is a great story and you know if he had heartache over it. We just want to do it so yeah. Yes, interesting, it's interesting in terms of terms seems to me to me: I mean again, maybe I'm not looking at it is carefully as my should or something but. Is everybody that you're writing about? Ok with this? Are you sure this is ok you're not going to get Khomeini

need here? You know, you're not going to get the or Salman Rushdie died mean you know what I mean you're not going to have somebody going on somebody's coming after me, or you absolutely positive. I could never be positive about that I don't expect people to be patted me on the back and say hey great job. You know and right nice reviews about it. You know there's a lot of hurt feelings out there and a lot of those guys are still around and I still live in the same neighborhood. I never moved or anything. I I go about my business every day. I still run into some of these guys sure you know there's always that possibility. Then I mean that's that just the way it is and I'm not really a shy guy and I try to be. I try to be truthful, it's going to be smart, you know, I don't have an immunity deal with the government like most people. Do that right, these kind of books.

They can talk about. Well, hey! You know I whack this one or I whacked that one and they can give you the details of it, and I'm say I ever did anything like tat, but it all we did have an immunity deal. I could go into detail about that because, obviously I would be protected from prosecution, but I'm not also it has got was saying. You know somebody stories really love to tell a great story, and I think I did pretty good, but I would really like to get into some details, but you know you get sorry about these overzealous lawyers, these overzealous prosecuted, the US attorney, I mean you know. I I've been a target for a long time with these people and on crimes never go away with no statute of limitations, but are now at all you know, somethin, whatever happened happens, I mean we're we're we're we're all gonna, the other one

inevitability Eliza, we're all gonna die someday. So maybe my he's going to be sorted in are the most I don't know, but I'm willing to take my chances. My work. Why sort out and say one thing added to mark thing, though you keep em. I too, that generally in even for how many more boats have been written back eyes, exposing other guys in their thoroughly I've been repercussions and a lot of stuff The mark talks about you know by now. Here we are in twenty twelve were talking about ten years ago, you even some of the most current stuff already going on five six years ago, so it and talking with other guys. I know that were involved there, cunning The answer is, you know if I write about this guy, why is it going to come? Bother me now, after all this time, to make trouble for himself

so yeah. They might not like it and mark my team on the street, and I might give him the finger say screw you but they're not going to go over and do something to market. Then there put themselves in a position of being arrested or they'd rather deal with today, these problems? You know that there are no problem every day and marched his life. You know so it is. Most in order of importance to you now get us some her. I'm not going to deny that you on ahead. I got some hurt feelings, though you know kind of a two way street? Where you know I they ve got kind of covered appear to wear. Many stories are all you know I I don't know whatever happens, Evans, I guess, but by adapting sky, clarified that well, I think you obviously took due to greatly.

It's not to be, like I say, there's you're not giving any information up on anyone, and you know it's very much different. You talk about immunity deal but you're, not you know, you didn't testify against people, so this is a completely different book right. So You know, so the information out there is, like you say you might ruffle some feathers people might not like your depiction of things. I was going to ask you, though, why was this book important for you to write felt like it needed to be told Well, I was the guy to live in the shadows for all of these years. I was the guy that put my ass on the line for the better of what I thought was this honor bound society. I felt betrayed, I fell,

Well, I don't know I felt like people had to know that this is the way it works, that this is the mob. This is the model that people glamorize and that there's movies about- and you know, here's the real, the real inside stuff about the way it really really works in uh. I wanted to tell you and I wanna do carefully. You know it's not about talking about What guys do it or what they didn't do war or trying to try someone it's also in all. I don't want to get them in trouble either. You know that was that wasn't the reason for doing this. You know whatever they've done or they haven't done. I I really don't bring it up past two thousand two, two thousand and three. You know where they might be. You know the statute of limitations, wouldn't wouldn't be helping. If you know what I mean, I didn't put anybody in the fire

I was called within it factors. As I wrote the book. I don't want to do that and I wouldn't expect people to try to do that to Maine right Skype. Can you tell us about this? Is a very important part of the book? Were again? Did you do you do a masterful job capturing this? Probably without you know, Mark saying it and without the narrative really explaining it it's the turning point in Mark Silverman's life, basically the attempt on his own, his own life, and so maybe you could talk about that that it's not the end of the book, but it's near the end of the book we talk about sort of sort of mark is talking about spoken about this. Through the interview about you know he was disillusioned and now he realized that he could see. There was no loyalty but talk about that one sort of a near attempt, and then

it just seems like there's a turn around there, where the light bulb goes off and Mark says, look at I've got to make a change here. Yeah. You know we mark and I do it. I was like the Hollywood scene 'cause, it's you know it's fleshed out like windows, just near Miss scenes that you would see in a movie, but it really happens, and I think in when Mark talks about that story and the way we wanted to write. It was exactly what you said it's here. He is kind of coasting through this glamorous criminal life, and this is where exactly what he says: kind of comes to fruition, where he really sees the depth of that treachery and what how close he really was dying, and at that moment, and that really hits home, and I think that opens his eyes and then he starts adding up everything else. That's going on around him and then there's you know, there's another smaller later with the FBI comes, and you know, hey marks, Workin

regular job, and he said you know, there's still guys looking to kill you, and you know I think at that point it. It really is clear to mark that this was obviously not what he signed up for as impression impressionable young young guy. It's not that life at all and not that scene that I think, really works well in that context, as again you don't, I have to say he doesn't come out there. Hey, I almost got cold. I got disillusion you can tell by the way he starts reacting the things around him that that's what's going on yeah tell us about that. Describe that scene for us not to give away too much for audience, but uh I mean just tell us about that. That attack you just your feelings, you're you're, your gut instinct, tell us about that. Whole event. It's is very powerful. The F b I visited me just before that any of the area

it was kind of saying is that I, I really started to see it for what it was, and I realized the dangerous spot that I had really put myself until you know I mean when you're inside of a mafia war people. I know that you know a lot, an people that may have felt as I that I betrayed them and maybe in some ways I did. But you know when there's two sides: fighting One of them is going to lose one of 'em going to win, so one of them is going to go home happy and the uh one can never going to let it go and then not the blame. The feds are already. Anybody else. They're going to blame me because they're going to say you know we fought this war for six hundred and seventy eight year is and the reason we could never win. It is because this guy. Wasn't really with us and they found that old. My wife was it was,

is constantly in danger. I mean I am. I had visits. Kinda like like sky said. I mean I've got a visit from the FBI and our work in this way a job, but I do ok sure that's where job withdraw. It was a bad spot. It was. It was in the territory of one of the guys that felt as though I'd be true him in the war. He was on the renegade side, so they have yeah. I came and they said you know mark we have a moral obligation to inform you that we believe that this is a contract on you and uh. You know, naturally, I said you should have told me this a year ago, because that's when the the tenth of my life was made, I mean, if you know about this, when you probably know about that one and excuse me: what did they say to that when you ask him that they didn't like it, because they thought it was? You know

thought I was trying to be cute well, but I was kind of being serious like you know, you don't know about that one, but you know about this one. You know what's going on. You know why it's Alan me, why do you care and all- and I really didn't take it serious, but in some in some ways I did because they said that they had picked it up on a wiretap during one of their investigations and see the one thing you have to understand too. If they can tell you that there is a definite, only life, but they you tell you where it's common from, so they were telling me this. I immediately knew right away who it was in maybe the investigation that they were into. I mean just I'm telling me that gave me enough where I kinda you know I mean I know what I was into one. I know who my main enemies were but tat. There was also apply to it meta jump into their arms and to work towards become a member of we like say, team America. You know what is one of the cod

I got your life, what they tell you, there's a contract on your life, the norm, lobster is going to jump into their arms and ask for protection because they're, the only ones that can protect you at least a claim. So I mean, I don't know, have never gone that route, but I don't know if I would trust Map LAS fascinating it well guys gentle I want to thank you very much for this interview. We could probably go on for another hour. This is an incredible story, but I want to thank you much ass God, Luigi and Mark Silberman, for this rogue mobster very, very, very, very interesting book fascinating inside access and, like I say it's almost like your inside a Sopranos good, fellows, godfathers episode, your cook and Mary. Narrow, sauce and they're gonna go a man if I could already know that that's where they get stuff from the get true accounts and of course they get somebody right in a little bit of drama and dialogue, but even the dialogue,

an area and all this is crazy, so the heads has been really really. I find this is much different book. I again with all this information and then you and Scott did a really really admirable job, and I want to thank you very much for number one for great book and two for a great interview. So thank you very much, gentlemen. You're welcome. Thank you, some pressure, but I'd like to remind you that room and brought as you can listen to rope mobster with Markswoman and sky beach. Dd. Gentlemen. Thank you very much and have a good evening consecutive night. Thank you. Thank you. And now I found from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. Please be the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah but The far less appealing blood fish

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