« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers


2017-07-24 | 🔗
In 1995, NFL great and movie star, O.J. Simpson beat a murder rap for the death of his wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ron Goldman. But in 2007 his luck with avoiding Lady Justice ran out in Las Vegas.ROOM 1203 is the true story of the convoluted and bizarre events surrounding a violent armed robbery of a sports memorabilia collector in a Vegas hotel. On that night, Simpson put an exclamation mark on his spectacular fall from the height of Hollywood’s glamour and glitz to a shadowy world of scams and schemers in Sin City.Written by the lead detective assigned to the case, the book provides details, insights and facts not previously reported, as well as the investigation that pieced the crime together and landed an arrogant man who believed he was above the law in a Nevada prison. ROOM 1203: O.J. Simpson's Las Vegas Conviction-Andy Caldwell
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. In nineteen. Ninety five and it felt great and movie STAR O J Simpson, beat a murder rap for the death of his wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend RON Goldman, but in two thousand seven his luck with avoiding lady justice ran out in LAS Vegas
room. One thousand two hundred and three is the true story of the convoluted and bizarre events surrounding a violent arm, robbery of a sports memorabilia collector in a Vegas hotel. On that night, Simpson put an exclamation mark on a spectacular fall from the height of Hollywood glamour and glitz to a shadowy world of scams and schemers in sin city written by the lead detective assigned to the case. The book provides details, insights and fax, not previously reported, as well as the investigation that piece the crime together and landed and arrogant man who believed it was above the law in a Nevada prison. The book tour featuring this evening, his room, one thousand two hundred and three Oj Simpson's, LAS Vegas conviction with my special gas detective, Andy Caldwell, and we're just waiting
ready to call in I just messaged him a moment ago, so we are going to be talking about a lot of things. This is on the just the recent events that happened last week, Oj Simpson being applying for parole and being granted parole will talk about when that releases. This is a detective that led the investigation was at the parole hearing. I spoke to him just briefly on the telephone, the other the other day and we're going to talk about everything involved with this case, but also the parole hearing that was, he recently attended and his feelings about that parole. Hearing is conclusions again everything about this case that so many people have a key writes in the book adopted the narative accepted the narative
from the defense team in that O J Simpson simply was there to take back his stuff. So here we have detective Andy Caldwell and author of room. Twelve, all three welcome to the program. Detective, Andy! Caldwell! Thank you so much. I appreciate your your time. Thank you very much now lets up. I, as I was mentioning, discover, waiting to get connected with the program, we talked about the Ae Special, so tell us about what happened with AE in your interview, not that you can tell us what happened and how it came to be. Tell us a little bit more about this interview and what we can't be talking about this evening. As a result, sure hope you had to be somewhat of a brief history that will make sense.
After I had written the book the agent who was handling the book. She pitched it to a partner group with any they ultimately picked up. Working with the idea of making a documentary, but in doing so I had to sign the exclusivity con So when their documentary comes out, the information is fresh that hasn't been on tv on air. In the past, though, you can read in the book, I'm not supposed to disclose the information through interviews. Interesting, very, very interesting, now tell us, just as you do in the beginning of this phone,
Or if people that may not have heard of the story but again as well, I'd mention in the just in the introduction. This is a story that people think they know something about, and you you write about that. Your experience in the book as well so tell us about September, two thousand and seven and the palace station, hotel and casino, and before that, just tell us a little bit about your background as a detective and where you work and this phone call, a re of a robbery sure so I guess I should first start off with I actually retired, from the LAS Vegas Metropolitan Police Department back in March of this year. I'm actually Let me a pastor up in mill city. Organic mill, city, christian Church, my law enforcement career uh with LAS Vegas Metro, you know, I start off in patrol and then I work my way up to detective and by September of two thousand and seven made it to the robbery homicide Bureau working in the robbery section and
it's compartmentalized by area of town- and I end up being one of the senior detectives on my squad in two thousand and seven, and I had for me one of the more desirable parts of town, but it did have the palace station hotel and casino in it. It just so happened that night. I was working in my air responsibility OJ. A robbery with his. His band of men. Now, at the time you expressed surprise what were you most surprised about that you got this call and not. It was just a you know, a faithful turn of events that you were assigned this, but what were you most surprised by in terms of the description of the crime? Ano Jc, listen as a suspect. Some of the things I'm not supposed to discuss our details of specifically dealing with you know, have
the motions in and how we we dealt with Mr Simpson throughout the course of the investigation, but I I think it's fair to say that that sometimes people get is this view of police officers having this, I'm wavering still racism and almost robotic in nature. So if you can just imagine my partner- and I were friends outside of work still friends today, you know we're just two guys that get a phone call. That said, you know one of the most infamous persons in America just committed a crime, so you you have to imagine what any person probably would have done. Having received that phone call. Now, let's talk about just the outline of the crime for those people, so that we can talk further. Obviously, there's a call made. What is this about? What is the information that you get of the particulars of the robbery itself right?
so sometimes that's that can be really easily confused when you don't know, or a regularly work with various types of crimes and how the elements of crimes actually apply. So a robbery taking pry party from the person of another by using force or fear of force to actually obtain that property so anytime, somebody comes in it. Doesn't necessarily need to be with a firearm or a knife, you can actually come in and Do a strong arm robbery where you threaten somebody, you don't even have to physically harm them. You just threaten force, so the call comes out is just simply a robbery at the palace station and uh only if it's once we arrived that were able to come to Maycomb
and all the related or connected crimes based on the elements of what we determine happened in that room. Now, what was the the particulars of the items that were stolen or allegedly to have been stolen? What were those again? We talked, I talked just mention about the narrative of what people think, even to this day what this was all about. So what was the robbery entailed in terms of those items that were allegedly stolen now without going into the details of all of the how the defense spun the case and all that that that I, I would say, nonsense that most people believe today, what was actually reported stolen was Duke Snider memorabilia PETE rose West point: hey,
and also Oj Simpson Elian Joe Montana. I think those were the five major sports individuals that had number billion there that that was awful, not the same time. You you define what robbery is as opposed to blur of burglary and for those that might think that this is something again through what they might have thought. What is exactly entailed in these charges that you were investigating in terms of robbery and why it's considered robbery and then- and it's really, in two weapons. Okay, so let me kind of maybe speaking from general terms and then maybe bring out your finer points so comes into question. Kidnapping the question and robbery comes into question on how they're actually applied now it kind of makes sense. However, thing becomes a conspiracy
there's more than one person involved, but anytime somebody into. Into any structure, occupied or unoccupied to commit a crime. It burglaries actually a crime of intent. So it's the mere fact that you entered into a building with the intent to do something. Now, if you commit a crime once you enter the building the state of Nevada. The intent is already established for you, so the moment. You go inside the structure and commit any crime at all. It's a burglary, a lot of times. People will think well. You know burglaries when you're not at home, and somebody breaks in your house and take stuff. While that is true also, it is also that crime of intent in any type of structure, if you bring up firearm. Then it becomes burglar firearm or if you obtain a firearm in the middle of that crime, also burglary, firearm, the robbery comes in where you enter into the building and
You don't have to enter into a building, but in this case you enter into a building with firearms and you take property from another person or Property that belongs to another person, and are you do it was forced her fear of force, in this case a firearm or to firearms, the kidnapping, and because it is one that people scratch their head at. So a lot of times we think kidnapping. We think of you, know grabbing somebody on the street, throwing him in the van and driving. But that's not the case. The kidnapping is anytime, you move or prevent the movement of an individual during the course of a crime? So even if you know I say, hey you leave and I have a gun in my hand. I just kidnapped you. If I push you even a foot and I have a gun in my hand, you just you kidnapped me so so, hopefully that maybe clarifies the name,
feature of some of the crimes in in gives a better understanding of why so many charges now this case is completely different because of Oj Simpson and, of course, because of Oj Simpson's past. And we talked about that and everybody unless they were living under a rock knows that so as a result, how was this case by your superiors? How would you advise to proceed with this? How was that the police proceed with this differently as a result. So again I I you know, I'm not intentionally trying to avoid your question. I'm just trying to be mindful of what I can and can't discuss until the documentary comes out. One I think you got to be mindful of us anytime, there's a high profile case and, unfortunately not All cases are high profile and even as a detective, you wish you
I had all the time I was allowed to investigate this crime, because you know, if there's a high profile investigation, they want you to turn over every stone. They want no surprises there, to make sure they have everything available. So I think it's fair to say in general terms that you know a case where the suspects with celebrity every resource available is going to be used on it and a case that might normally take Uh ten days to investigate turns into a year long investigation. Now, let's talk about again a subject of people talk about, but don't really have the facts, but we talked about again alluded to the death of Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend RON Goldman that murder trial. Of course, then, the civil, decision, which is thirty, three point: five million involving RON Goldman family. How does this relate? What is there about the
memorabilia and how is it tied in with that civil suit decision? So I guess where I feel safe answering. This is saying that that you're, actually in a connected in for as much as a defense team, might want to assert that they're, not that's just a story line that they've they've brought up so many times. People might believe it, but the other two are absolutely connect and I think, as if, if you read the book, you probably saw how that unfolded, but I think the doctor He will also help people see how the two are interconnected. Can we talk in general terms about the characters in this and how they came to be not only a victim in this, but also, at this hotel. Can we talk about that all the premise of how everyone was at that hotel and why.
You know, unfortunately, that's one of the very specific areas I'm not supposed to talk about, I'm so sorry and again I think in fairness. After the documentary comes out- and I know Right now, this is of interest because the parole hearing and you know I, I think one of the very frustrating aspect for me- I'm very happy and pleased with the documentary. However, there's parts of the story that I felt got heavily misrepresented on last Thursday and unfortunately, most of the books out there about what happened in LAS Vegas or absolutely incorrect? not giving the actual full story they're just giving parts of the story, so you can imagine from my perspective I'm just pulling my hair out because every, be on the news, seems to follow the story line. This is not correct right but, as you say you, there is a difference between what is
written an what is already released. His book is already released. Am I correct also the difference between again? I understand this exclusivity over broadcast, but there is the information that we can talk about. P. You can read about yeah that that is an interesting aspect of my contract. It can be you can I think we do in the documentary is actually covered within the pages of the book, and I do think the book represents a full most of the investigation should provide any reader with a basic understanding of scrap the storyline that that the media
Here's or or tells scrap what we heard last Thursday in just go with the facts as represented to the prosecution and then represented in court, and I think I think maybe the price is a little bit different than what most people think happened. No, maybe what I'll do is just ask you some questions again, because I I it's hard to know where I can go from here. On top of one can't talk, any specifics. But I think people even listening can have a with us on where we are in the story anyway, from disturbed now now with this investigation. Again, I want to ask any specific questions about particulars of the investigation, but from the beginning of investigation to say the preliminary trial. How long is that in from the preliminary trial to the trial? How long does that take sure? I'm? So the crime happened September. Seventh, I'm sorry September 13th,
one thousand and seven, and then we have the preliminary hearing starts. I believe it was November eighth, so you figure about eight weeks give or take a week and in the preliminary hearing you know there wasn't enough time to get the full investigation done, even though I almost had two months, and we actually jury trial doesn't start all the way until October of the following year, so October of two thousand and eight now again with those particulars of what it's contained. Very important evidence is contained in recordings and again we just won't go into what recordings and who had the recordings. But this comes down to a lot of information gleaned from recording, correct, right and inelegant I'll go a little bit farther on that. For you, some water
unique aspect of this case and something that I think particularly interested in e is that not only the actual incident gets caught on audio recording, but the planning stages was recorded and also what happened. The robbery was recorded. So as far as an investigation goes, we hadn't incredible insight into the mindset into Actually, what happened regardless of what people say? You know that's the great thing about audio and video evidence, it really does preserve the moment better than anyone's memory and we're talking about some characters here, like TMZ. And release of again evidence recordings on national television via TMZ yeah, you know the case for as simple as it was yeah, we had some some fairly complex twist and turn
Good, I would say, are extremely rare in any investigation. Can you talk general, just the interesting aspect of again, I guess police ethics for lack of better term. Maybe you can explain it in terms of who made the arrest an what the normal protocol would have been should have been in your mind I'm? So sorry, that's one of the areas that I I I do have to kind of stay. Different, because that is when it comes. Unfortunately, you know there are interested, obviously in the personal aspects of interaction with in. I believe that the embargo actually lifts shortly before they enter it. So you know if there's a time where your interest, enough that we discuss it again come right around October. You know I can. I can call and I I can give you the whole rundown of that, because I I
play. The FBI. Arrest was from my perspective for my partner's perspective, my my God's perspective. That was a very frustrating thing: how that happened as an investigation. In terms you say this is a very simple case in terms of an investigation in terms of difficulty. How would you rate this investigation. Information and evidence gathering A variable in their removing Soleb, thirty from it. It's a very simple investigation that the elements of the crime were huh really disputed and could be hardly disputed and I think that's what makes criminal investigations complex,
is when the elements of the crime are disputed, but but you know if, if a crime gets committed inside a building, it's a burger. If you, you. Took property from somebody at gunpoint: it's a robbery, if you coming up there will during the robbery is kidnapping. So the elements of the crime are very, very simple. You know. Even to the point of identifying who was involved very simple: it's the celebrity that changes, the nature of this You know working in robbery for as long as I did. I worked in robbery for five years. You come across investigations where a guys wearing mask and gloves commits a series of robberies. It's a fairly complex investigation requiring a lot of technical investor nations using electronic surveillance. Things of that nature. This case did not have that at its face value, removing celebrity very easy.
Can we talk, I'm going to name somebody, and you can tell me if we can talk name, I guess I'm going to name this person. This Bruce from on is a central figure in the story. I won't say anymore than that, but can we talk about who he was historically in relation to OJ sure yeah? He actually worked with Oj Simpson, I think actually say works for had his own company Bruce Froemming was a memorabilia dealer. He memorabilia, for Joe Montana, all those various number ability that I listed off. He had actually worked with those individuals and had them sign things, and then you know sold them for profit. That's how it was his business right now who is Alfred Beardsley in relation to
Bruce from on no Alfred Beardsley has passed away, he's an intra in character or was an interesting character More than anything- and I know this is going to sound odd, and I think this is one of those interesting things about the case. You could just describe Alfred Beardsley as a super fan, so not really directly connect for anybody just connected on the edges enough to be able to be in the middle of things. Interesting and I'll. Ask you about one more person, this recheio? How are they really call? Mauricio? Is a sports memorabilia dealer in southern californian effect. I think he has a very uhm successful business in southern California, so his connection is just that that
well known sports, memorabilia dealer who is very well connected, and so prior to this, there might have been business connections. But you would have to speak for themselves, but I don't think we could say I would not describe his friends now. We talk about
why OJ was in Vegas and you talk about him being there for a wedding Tom, Skadi Scotto? I believe yes and yet Thomas got so that's the reason why he's in Vegas tell us why? Yes, you do is very interesting. The procedure for a rest and procedure that there's two ways of getting a warrant for arrest. Could you tell us about the two different ways and why one way was chosen over the other? If you want what, in general terms, I can explain that process so And any given case that you go out to you know a local bank, it throbs and you have the suspect identified, but he might not be standing right in front of you. You might need to go to a house to arrest him
you can go and you can make a probable cause arrest and you affect that arrest without an arrest warrant. You just sit on. The problem will cause you know, given the facts and circumstances you know that would cause. You would cause a reasonable person to believe that individual committed a crime now, when you do that, that's all on you as an officer, you know that's the can wishing you receive and that's the trust the state has in in you that you put those elements to get, when you can be trusted to make that decision to affect that of the other way do it is when you really don't have the suspect in front of you or maybe it's a little bit more complex of the case. Maybe it's maybe just want to clarify some details with the process use and then you can choose the route of an arrest warrant in that in that process you submit the paperwork to the District attorneys office. They were do it and they either approve or deny once they approve it.
I then you take that packet. You lock it over to a judge, the judge Reviews, and then he signs off you now have your restaurant and you arrest that person wherever he is. So those are the two, the two different ways that we really have available to us as law enforcement to make those arrests. But now something happens to Bruce from ONG, and I know we're kind of jumping ahead in different times here. But what happens to him? At some point, health, wise. He had health issues immediately following the incidents directly connected to the incident the stress related him up and having, at the end of having stress health related issues in him to be hospitalized, for, in fact,
so much so that I didn't know exactly where he was immediately following the incident right now we're going to have to go into. I guess if we can talk about the arrest so much. What were any setbacks and curveballs along the way after the preliminary, which was straightforward, that there was enough evidence to go to trial? What were the couple of the curve balls as you write that surprised you and contributed to little differences in this investigation and hence trial, So one of the things I've worked in a cup weather high profile investigations for Metro, one of the things that's is, I think, somewhat unique to the higher profile investigations is,
people want to be involved, and sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes that's a bad thing, but sometimes people's involvement when they force themselves into situation and they actually create more work priming it would be a crime things involving somebody famous and suddenly you start getting tips about who the co defendants are. And now these tips are incorrect, but to cover all your bases. You now have to end to get all of the tips in the mall. Once the media takes an interest in the case, those number of tips just go through the roof. Were there any leaks? I mean you probably, if you talk about put in safeguards that there was going to be this kind of things that had happened previously in high profile cases. What was done in this particular? What kind of measures were done and if any, what things slip through that net, regardless you know uhm, I have a cow
something like that, I'm absolutely amazing. Captain in Captain Dylan had worked or been involved in the Tupac murders and He did it in a supervisory role and did that somehow internally pictures were leaked out to the media that had no business being leaked out to the media, because I think in fairness, law enforcement. We can do our job and sometimes it's easier to do our job. If we're not constantly
sing everything to the media and having everybody second guess and then creating more work for us and what we need. So because Captain Dylan's experience with the Tupac investigation in this investigation, he did kind of put up a wall of security, preventing people from actually getting the documents. If you weren't directly related to the case, whereas in most criminal investigations, everything as it gets completed goes into a central records where people can just if they are interested, they can review the other case and Captain Dylan didn't want. That happening he safeguarded all the information that came in during the investigation. Now, that's not to say anything was kept from the public or the DA's office. Everything was also given to them, but did try to maintain integrity of the investigation without having unnecessary leaks way out, so that media- and that makes it sound like this- there was
things that were secretive in this case. There really wasn't. We just don't want create additional work for ourselves right now. There's a couple characters named Alexander and Mcclinton, and you talk about- and I guess it's not new to two crime fans at all- that the first person cooperates or the first person is attempted to cooperate so tell us a little bit about cooperation and who cooperates and how you're getting calls from attorney and so tell us a little bit about this cooperation and who's the person that first cooperate? You know one thing I want to point out: uh and walk operation is absolutely the appropriate word. Sometimes it gives the impression that the person voluntarily. Does this cooperation an in, though absolutely we get people to cooperate, they're doing it for very selfish self service, resell
serving reasons to avoid the fullness of the accountability that comes along the crimes, they commit. Sure so I wanna make sure I don't give them any credit for providing information once they were caught red handed you It's great that they're going to tell me now, but they sure were going to tell me before I caught him. So yeah part of the system's plea bargains. You know part of any investigation is gathering as much information as possible and sometimes when you need that information here and now the only way you're going to get it is through a co defendant and usually through an attorney who is going to workout a deal for his person to give you all the information you're looking for and so that happens quite a bit in this case. So for those people that have a conspiracy minded flat pro
and again in summation, without knowing all the information. Why is this not? Just targeting Oj Simpson and giving over everybody else a break not to get into particulars, but to dispel this as you do in the book about targeting and pay back for the murder. Tell us what you writing a book about that yeah. You know I, I think that's very fair, so when, when everything initially happened in nineteen. Ninety four, I was very young married man with a young child in the army on the other side of I was over in Georgia. So you would have to have your head under a rock to say you didn't know anything that happened, but that time. In my life, I I didn't follow
it wasn't. It wasn't a huge you know. I I one that interested it in just for my own personal standpoint, I felt there was a regardless of what anybody said. I thought it was best not to even dive into that arena of ok, let me find out details about what happened in LOS Angeles in nineteen. Ninety four, and so I wanted to Sure that I did my job to the best of my ability to give everybody involved a fair shake and I think you know I hope I can stand on my integrity Map of you know, all I did was take what the evidence that was presented and I moved forward with it. I I think, if anything. There was an initial reluctance to accept the fact that he was involved in the case.
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Dot com, slash, murder, that ziprecruiter dot com, slash, murder, one more time I got to say for free, go to zip recruiter and let's talk about the trial. If we can and talk about just before that during this investigation, you have this incredible task of trying to transcribe some of these recordings and tell us which I thought was very interesting- how the FBI helped you in that regard. Let me help you talk in general terms, and maybe everybody can connect the dots because, again, that's an arena that Amy is is exclusive to anytime. You want to present evidence that my not be normal in front of a jury. You want to make the jury, has a full understanding of how was that evidence collected. You know if it was some sort of record.
Device. You know. How does that work? How is it not edited? How is it not corrupted in any way? How do we know what we're actually getting is the best available resource for the evidence. Anytime. You have a major case. You want to make sure that the evidence you have is of the best quality of possible and that you have people who can testify to the fact that it has not been altered in any way eat. You know, I think, it's fair to say, they throughout the course investigation. There were accusations made of altering and editing, and so you know you always
make sure you cover those bases, while okay great to make those claims. Anybody can say things that they want to say to make themselves feel better by each cover those bases by having organization with credibility, be able to say hey. That is not the case, so hopefully that answers, or or at least in a general sense answers that question right now I can. I can. I know we can only talk in general terms, but who is MIKE Gilbert? He is so I do. I do think it's fair to say this, one of the things that I think goes wrong in high profile. Criminal investigations is rather than saying, narrowly focused on what the what is important. Certainly you you, you drive off on all these bunny trail that lead nowhere in
in fact can sometimes muddy up the water in ways they don't need the money up. So I'm gonna say that might be is somebody who I avoided, because he wasn't important to what happened regardless of how much he makes himself, what happened when it comes down to the actual investigation MIKE Gilbert, just not somebody who I was However, I am aware of who he is the claims he makes now. You know he is absolutely an affiliate of Mister Simpson and has been, for you know. Twenty plus years can we talk about the book if I did it just for people that aren't away
of this book and and ratios connection to that Mary. I have to stay away from so sorry, okay, I've, I've, never read the book. I don't know if, if you have, this is the one of the things that I I guess I can kind of finish an answer earlier after the case was done, everything was done. I no longer had involvement. I did read the various books. I read Mark Fuhrman's book, which I thought was amazing. It was actually hard to put down. He did such a good job
I read Marcia Clark's work in an eight. You know I got a little bit for Chris Darden's book. You know he is I I don't think I could have read that book after having research. The original case is so that book is actually involved in what happened in LAS Vegas. I I think you would actually say it's kind of at the heart of it, but I never took the time to read it that was just based on. I never knew of it for the case and then, after the case was done after reading, what information was available and not information avail I guess I want to highlight that as well. You know the reliable sources on investigation are the prosecution side or the investigation side. I'll, give you everything I'll, give you the good the bad. And once I did that with the first case, you know, I think, Mark Farm was very open and honest in his book, almost painfully honest at time
and I think he gave me good overview and yeah. I just I couldn't have anything to do with that book. Right. Let's talk about what we can about the trial. Defies you talk about. You testify four times. Uh Tell us a little bit about the trial and the circus. Were you surprised at the turn, from the media. The response from the media tell us a little bit of you as you do the quite kind of humorous story of MRS Cotto's recent bride at the trial and what she was doing so just tell us a little bit of the again. The moment may not have been a huge circus, but it was certainly circus, like at the preliminary hearing it it was a circus environment. You know it had people turn out from all walks of life, just to be
in in all the background, your question about what happens in the courtroom, but but I gotta say that Judge Glass control the courtroom in such a way that it was not a circus. So, by the time we got to a an actual the trial in two thousand and eight, and I think it was in large part to how she ran her court. We, we didn't really have that circus and iron man again, you know what happened with Moscato. Preliminary hearing, which you know the inappropriate behavior based on nothing criminal, I want make sure I'm clear. That just just behavior that it is not appropriate in a courtroom and Ultimately, what happened is that the the trial, the prosecution wanted
bring up at that. The behavior that wasn't appropriate for the inside of a courtroom and, as results was probably the most dramatic moment of the the jury trial. Now, what about your testimony very interesting and whatever we can't go into, but. You to even talk about all the instruction from the the prosecutor Owens In terms of how you would answer questions whatever you can tell us about some of this fascinating instruction and anything about the experience of your testimony itself, yeah in again,
a lot of times. You know we see courtroom drama unfold on tv in in we just we. We don't realize that that's just the v courts are much more controlled place and what you see on tv- I think I explained in the book and when the prosecutor calls you you're his witness his or her witness and they ask you open, ended questions but you you know hey what did you do on September, seventh, two thousand and thirteen, and then you just it's your turn to just explain away. Until they slow you down now, when they turn you over to to answer questions to the defense. The defense has to ask you questions within the scope of what the prosecution asked you. So if the prosecution only asked me,
about one specific search warrant may serve five. They don't get a dive into the other search warrants. It doesn't work that way, so you normally get the ability to prepare for, if only because you you, you know what the prosecution's going to ask you. You can imagine in any investigation that say is a year long or even I've had investigations. I've been involved in that have been five years long. If you don't I have. The ability to have the prosecutor say: hey this is what we're going to be looking at then suddenly you're stuck with the task of just and creating files, trying to memorize everything you can in this case the first case my ever I've ever her is. It happening obviously ever happening to me. The defense also subpoenaed me. So what that did is in essence gave the defense free Reign to ask whatever they wanted throughout the entire case. So it wasn't just within the scope of me being,
prosecution, witness they also created the environment, where I could be a defense witness to and to ask me what They wanted so a very unique thing. I've never had that happen in all of my career, and believe it or not a little bit nerve, wracking 'cause again, you know a case this size or with the amount of information in a case like this. It's hard to have all of that on ready, recall and you don't want to sit in front of the jury. Look like you're always searching for answers. You know you want to present a professional appearance. You want to present a competent appearance and that's right thing to do when you have to memorize five case files that are six inches thick is five inches thick. What I found most interesting and what I haven't seen before, and I you know I really appreciated you, including this was when prosecutor Owens. This is taking you out cross examination and saying? Listen,
it was critical of how you testified Can you explain what he actually meant and you talked about? He told you need to disrupt the flow by asking him to repeat the question and and for you to point out multiple question and even elaborate, if necessary, to establish what you wanted to establish and yet you know it's it's it's an interesting thing that again a lot of people think that police officers testified all the time in jury trials and why we do have a lot of experience in grand juries or preliminary hearing situations depending on the state or jurisdiction that you live in jury trials. Don't happen that often so often times we don't have a level level of experience. People assume we have testifying in jury trials in a lot of times. We might think we answered the question well in reality, We answer the questions very poorly in so much so that I think that's probably why
the things I detail out really well with how I answer the question very poorly, and I thought I answered a perfectly and in Chris owns the the deputy district attorney and chief deputy district attorney. He you know so graciously pointed out to me my error you don't. I remain really friendly with with Chris all the way through and I'm still pretty good friends with David Roger and but yes, after my first, we have testimony. I did receive some some correction in some direction from the prosecution Are you running you said the second or third day and souls other p
went before you obviously other other witnesses that were important to this. Just for the record, we haven't talked about it. What was OJ facing in terms of the charges? What were the charges levied against him and what about these? What were potential co defendants as you write? What were they given in terms of possibility, but uh recommend eight. What would they going to be recommended by the prosecution for so everybody had. Different deals worked out, so you know some of them. One of them was as low as a gross misdemeanor. I believe all the rest, were, were felonies and I think to them. Egregious one there was, No recommendation on like say the sentencing.
There was just an agreement upon the charge and then, however, the courts saw fits they would they would put out the very punishment or whatever the courts deems appropriate again one of those things that we always thank you. It is the case that isn't necessarily the case is the plea bargain guarantee punishment and they don't. You know it is also one of the judges arena to sentence. People can make recommendations all they want. They can say: they've agreed all they want. When the rubber hits the road it's the judge who gets to make that decision now, despite the fact,
talk about how OJ was at least gave the names of these people willingly with these plea bargains. There's not anybody in his corner from these potential codefendants is there. There was yeah, he went to trial with the codes, and there was two of them sitting today. Now, with with this, go ahead, real quick on that under the code of and- and I will say that you know he was convicted of as well received the same sentence. He won an appeal to his conviction, based on the premise that it was unfair to sit next to do Oj Simpson during a jury trial and the appeal was determined by judges to have merit
And, rather than re prosecuting the case, he had been imprisoned, for, I believe, almost three years at that point, the DA's office offered in time served and he agreed to that, took his conviction and just was released the hassle of any any further trial. He did have one individual that went to trial with him right. I want to be able to talk about the parole hearing. If we can, can we talk about the parole hearing? Well, well, Unfortunately, I I'm I'm again limited on the parole hearing as well. You know, I think, what I what I do. You know. Hopefully I can convey well enough is that parole hearing was very difficult for me to watch very difficult for me to watch because it's hard um when I I have,
for the criminal justice system, and I understand that the system has its flaws and those flaws are rooted in people. I just making bad choices or decisions, but one thing really hard to accept for me because of the high value I place on the system is somebody who just comes in and why, in unnecessarily you know it's it's so our last Thursday was very difficult for me. Maybe I'll just talk about what I signed in, You know again, you can comment, I guess, because what I thought was very very unusual was the in response to some of the clips. I saw the questions in Basically, when the Parole Board members said still consider this, that you just told your your own stuff,
And he was literally, I thought taken aback by how vehemently o J denied that and said. No, no, it is my mother was my stuff and really objected profusely to that almost intimidating. I think that Parole Board member another with that I saw was, where he mentions that he's had a conflict free life again, basically excluding any of the events that happened in his life. What we will exclude murder in there, but despite that, is ridiculous again a ridiculous claim. And then, when they asked him again, you would think this would be a tenant of potential parole. Is to not deny your responsibility or to downplay your responsibility again. He did that thing. Went to the again, as you say, based on this book and based on the uh. Instead, he was certainly lying when he he did say that
and I didn't see all the clips I was. I was surprised that he could be that arrogant and again the almost denial of his responsibility. I thought and still We came for one of the things that that now I would express a frustrated I was at a hearing in in no. I can't talk about details because I I do think that the hearing so interesting I I would hope that and hopefully this isn't a shameless plug. I would hope that people could take the time and read my book and see the difference, because you know from my understanding. Fourteen million sets watched that parole here
so there's a lot of people that watch that, and I would just hope that people could take that. I'm actually read the book and not read a nonsensical garbage that the co defendants and other people have written read what is generally accepted. This fax, or I shouldn't say, generally accepted the fact it is proved in a court of law and see the difference between what we said. Last thing: stay in what actually happens. Well, when you talk about that too- and I want to urge people to- because I'm just chomping at the bit being able to ask these questions after reading this incredible book, and so we will have to definitely have you back as soon as we possibly can and talk about this book, but in the interim, people can read this book and I wanted to also say that
it's very interesting. That Annie has come to you and is very interesting that wild blue press has I'm sure it wasn't. It was very easy to get this deal with the the subject matter and who you are, and obviously your pension for writing here is this is this? Is a really really good results? Just tell us what I mean it's it's I I can relate to you being frustrated on what happened at that parole hearing how much discussion was in that interview about that parole, hearing, actually quite a bit You know you bring up an interesting point of how hard it was when it initially happened. We had no interest in writing and I say we because I do I really, consider my life to be a partner in every
we do in life, and so we did not want to pursue a book or anything. That nature initially, when will happen because it did consume. So much of the time away from my family, It wasn't until I get close to retirement than I thought. Oh well, let's try this and and when we and I sat down with the idea to do it, my wife and I we agreed we were just going to do it for posterity. In fact, we were willing to spend up to about one thousand five hundred dollars to self publish This is maybe get one hundred dollars time that to send them out to friends and family just to kinda memorialize. It then I had a a neighbor friend who asked me or told me that now I should try to contact an agent once I contacted the agents. That is how all it was. Actually my agent Charlene Marten, who, who kind of made
all this happened totally unexpected. You know the documentary unexpected, you know getting published unexpected, so it's all been a pleasant surprise and hopefully you know as it grows. I do. I do find value in the fact that truth is being revealed incredible before I let you go but tell us when the any special is supposed to air and again when you can speak about those subjects that you did discuss with any when you can discuss them and tell us a little bit about wild brook breasts and how they might get a copy of the. I'm so am I my understanding on the documentary. It should be sometime in late. September or in the first week in October, somewhere around Oj Simpson's parole. Hearing a wild blue press is a true crime. Publisher that publish my book, they've published other books with best selling authors,
which is you know, of course I would love to be on that list with them in you can get my book right now. It's both in Kindle and on paper back in and they're both available on Amazon and I've, also seen it on a few other sites, and you know I would love for people to give me some reviews on there and Wild blue Press is actually sitting up a question and answer session on their facebook page as well. That should happen next week or people. If they have questions about the book, they can ask Ann. I can at least give them answers to what the contents of the book are again in in a public setting or in a media setting I'm I'm not really going into details just because of the contract, but if there are specific questions, if they, if they jump on that Facebook page, I should be able to answer in form. I also wanted to mention too, that Steve Jackson, one to have the ability for the audience to win. Five free copies
and so I just wanted to jeez yeah. What you have to do is people can email, while blue dress with the subject line, dances passkey show that's all he said here and if you contact, while blue Press and he says, with the subject line dancer passkey show you can have an opportunity to win one of the five e books of room, one thousand two hundred and three. So I just wanted to mention that before I forgot a good opportunity to get a free copy of the book that we've been listening to and talking about tonight. So I want to thank you very much and he called all for coming on and talking about room. One thousand two hundred and three I want to thank you in advance for coming back on and remind me when we can get you back on in October and talk about this.
Incredible book, a lot more and the parole hearing and everything that I was dying to ask you that I couldn't so. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about this tonight, and thank you for your, I really do appreciate this. Okay, well thank very much, and you have a great evening and hope to talk to you again soon. Goodnight. Thank you as well connect. When you drive with uber. What moves you moves us? That's why we maintain auto liability insurance on your behalf, so you have peace of mind right from the start. What moves me? That's a big question, definitely family. I just want them to know. I do this for them and then I'm ok. When I'm out there boo, what moves you moves us. Get started with auto liability coverage when you sign up to drive with us at uber, dot, com, slash, drivespear, driving with uber mayberry.
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.