« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers


2012-11-14 | 🔗
Victoria Redstall is a glamorous model, actress, filmmaker, and investigative journalist who has spent years visiting high-security prisons and interviewing sadistic killers like Gary Ray Bowles and Keith Hunter Jesperson, "The Happy Face Killer." These hardened killers have opened up to her in a way that they would never do to psychiatrists, prosecutors, or other authority figures, and have revealed terrifying chapters of their lives that might otherwise have stayed hidden forever. In this chilling book she shares every detail and insight, bringing the reader up close and very personal with some of the most dangerous and disturbed serial killers that the world has ever seen. SERIAL KILLERS UP CLOSE AND VERY PERSONAL:-MY DEATH ROW INTERVIEWS WITH THE MOST DANGEROUS MEN ON THE PLANET-Victoria Redstall
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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lock to radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Spanky. Good evening. This is your host Dan Zoo, can't for it up program. True, murder, the motion in killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Victoria, Still is a glamorous model actress filmmaker and
investigators hi, I'm Jay, Farner, ceo of Quicken loans. Thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate. All the concentration in conditions, because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty dollars, was spent years visiting high security prisons and interviewing sadistic killers like Gary Ray Bowles and Keith Hunter Jesperson, the happy face killer These hardened killers of open up to her in a way that they would never do decide psychiatrist, prosecutors or other authority figures, and have, as a result, revealed terrifying chapters of their lives that might otherwise have stayed hidden forever in this, chilling book. She shares every detail and insight bring
the reader up, close and very personal with some of the most dangerous and disturb serial killers that world has ever seen. The book were profile this evening is serial killers close and very personal. My death row interviews with the most dangerous men on the planet, with my special journalists and act as a journalist and Arthur Victoria Redstone welcome to the programme, and thank you. For agreeing to this interview Victoria Red still, thank you for having me done thanks so much, It's a big thrill. This is a very, very interesting book. Let's get right to probably probably the question most people have asked you were probably been asked, is many times and I think our audiences inch It is well especially with your background why are you interested in writing this book and, moreover, why. Were you with your background, interested in interviewing some of the most dangerous man?
the planet, serial killers, convicted psychopathic killers. Why were you interested in this endeavor? Well, I would say when I was eleven years old in England, we had very close family friends that that were actually modest, mass murderer and another family was also murdered, a family that I didn't know this had a very profound effect on my psyche at such a young formative age that it shocked me it upset me is toward my heart, my my emotions. Back when I was eleven from then I started to study, books and newspaper and and magazines and shows- and I found the most bizarre line set in the world- is that odd, a mass murderer, a serial killer and I found it to be horrible, but also very interesting, because it's so hard to understand.
Right now. How did it? How did for this book itself? You picked five notorious, maybe not completely well known, but very notorious killers. What is there was the criteria for the book. In turn, of the people you chose, I mean you, what went in an interview these people so but tell us how you came to interview these five people or pick these five people or Have these five men cooperate with you? How did it come about for these five subjects of your book. Well, I probably started out with about twenty people that I'd read about heard about or seen on television or what
It was, I started them on the internet and it there but killed at least three people with down time in between or convicted of that. That makes them a serial killer, and I wanted to focus my first book on my main book that I was doing on my own on serial killers, not mass murderers and nothing else. So I wrote to about twenty, so you have to understand it's a numbers game, not eh, one responded, maybe about eight responded and then a few I got all or I fell by the wayside. They're saying they're innocent there's some that interested me more and some that did and what it really is, it was all down to kill. I fly out to that state. Can I get them on camera? Can I go on there visiting less? What's the protocol with that particular death row or prism, and it was basically the five people I chose which took me at just over a year to fill fill it up, and then I wrote a book and I also got the mall on camera, so I've also got hard drives filled with exclusive interviews
or possible future television shows. So that's why I chose those five, but really, I probably chose about twenty incredible now, just before we start name the five subjects and then we'll go, probably in chronological order, just like your book, because there's probably good reason- and there is a good reason why you start with who you start with so tell us the five subjects introduce the five subjects that are in your book. Okay, I tried so many of these serial colors because I'm writing. I can book as well so with the book that you're specifically talking about it, would be Wayne Adam forward. So
from the Justice Center Gary Rainfall Bobby Joe Long and Robin Jack, and yes, there is an order and the reason why Wayne Adams Ford is number one. It's because he's actually the very first serial killer that I ever met in the flesh. Well, somebody I wanted to create a documentary on. I found him to be highly interesting because he had a conscience enough to turn himself in remorse and that to me I've never heard of it all my studies, all my life, so I found his story not only very redeeming and him as a person redeeming, but also that was two six and that number was identified. So with those two main bullet points, all six passes makeup and story. I thought I cannot just create a book on him. Well, I can actually go out and create your tv documentary, and that was my original plan and there was a loss of restrictions with that somebody in a jail not allowing cameras and then I'm going to death row again, not allowing cameras in. So I grab my moments in the courtroom. I spoke to him every day
on the telephone, and I built up footage enough where I could compile. I thought to make a documentary that didn't quite work out, so instead he became trapped to number one of my book. Well, let's lose that as an introduction to Wayne Adam Ford and tell us about this. This is an incredible case. Incredible killer tell us about wait him for and especially tell us how you your correspondence start with that, how you and corresponding what was the tone of the York, your initial correspondence to him to try to convince him that you or a journalist, and it was in his interest to be able to speak. To you and that he could trust you. How did you go about doing that? Well, I actually was went after Wayne forward because he was the only serial killer in the vicinity of La Southern California that I could actually meet.
Because I was so it's you people in California that usually all on death row or life in prison, so I wanted to start in the county or in our surrounding come. Can you read it? I wanted him to trust me, but I didn't want to give him my name, because I didn't want myself to go on camera. I want to do the behind the camera. For the first time in my life, I wanted the serial killer. I think my last name is Smith. I went by a sickening, pulled class Smith and I wanted to just win him over when his trust with just him looking in my eyes and trusting me, but that didn't work because he didn't trust me initially and he got very cross that I would not give him my last name- and I was certainly not about to give him my last name, not anybody. So when I wanted, when I met with him in the jail I tell the deputy I like to go on a tour of the jail, which is an area I went to you're not allowed to go as a civilian or if anyone
turn that jail cannot. Vote was certainly unit because its administrative segregated inmates highly dangerous, and they kept away from all other inmates so any other unit I could have gone to, but not that one. I convinced the deputy, because it was a Sunday. Nobody was around in authority. Please let me I just want to meet Wayne Adam Ford, I did push the limits. Push the envelope say what you will, I'm a journalist. You know you gotta push those doors down and I met with this man and I said in my innocent way. I have no makeup on my jacket was done up to make him. I said you know Mister Ford. Would it be in a fake american accent? Mister forward? Would it be possible for me to the story about you, and he said, if you don't spacialize me, I said no, no before it, I won't what's your name, my name is Clare
my last. My last name is Smith. Looking milky arrives and from then on, he was determined to find out my last name and I never gave. And I was sitting in the courtroom every day. The meeting want to know my last name. The defense was suspicious. It wasn't my last now they went to jail to find out my last name, but I try to seek we went in on my middle name? I didn't I want my last name out, but then, when I was put on the stand in his trial in the penalty phase, I had to state my name for the jury and then, of course, all the papers got hold of the fact that you know I do modeling as well, and and on tv and then scandal broke out across the world, and then they made up a romance story between me and the serial color, which is so far from the truth. Is the wow yeah so is your first taste of the media backlash or. Yeah even make sense, but yeah the model
serial killer, I mean I can understand for ratings for get getting people to buy the paper. But I mean they really write me through the coals and it caused a lot of problems for companies I represent, like Lamborghini and Ralph Lauren shoes and all these companies they put, they couldn't have me associated with their car or with their shoes or with Harley Davidson, and I was dropped by another company because now I'm associated with a serial killer, which then makes Lamborghini Asos
but it was, it was. It was absolute hell and I all I wanted was to stay behind the scenes go by a different name and not even go on camera. So that was my whole point and then, of course, because I was going to do this whole show of the documentary people said no out that to the story. That's what documentaries are it's saying the truth. It's saying the hell we went through, so I did and I exposed it, and this is why I put myself my personality and my life into the book. Is I want to connect with people from all walks of life, so they can see that I'm not going in and asking a bunch of crap to a serial killer. I wanted to know what shall I went through to get there and the hell I went through during the process, and here I am you know the well here I am for you to pick out if you want, but I must say that I tell you a story and fulfil. You can connect enough to steal that you were right there with me.
Yes, I mean this is this is interesting what You're saying this is normally not the perusal of journalists. Journalists sometime the ten trials, often the ten trials, but very seldom interview the subjects of their books and you are doing you're going over and beyond that. With this. Now with wait, Adam four, let's get back to let's get to the crimes winner,
and how he came to the attention of the police. Well, he was never a suspect. That is the whole point he had to turn himself in because they weren't looking for him and he has got part of it and he's not schizophrenic or any of that. But there's a part of him. That's got such a strong, conscious that he knew what he was doing was bad evil wrong. Everything he was doing was wrong, so he took himself out into the woods, so he didn't see any more people that he wanted to kill and he went out into the woods for days on end
and try to stop this feeling this overwhelming feeling to murder. We don't know what that's like being normal people. Let's hope we don't, but we don't know what that overwhelming sensation is, but because of his childhood because of the lethal combination, the lethal cocktail, all the views of the neglect of abandonment, of a brain injury at the age of seventeen. All these things get together in someone's head and their brain in a makeup, but nature one in life, something small or beat could happen and boom you become a mass murderer or a serial killer or a crime at fashion killer, and that was weighed Ford's lethal cocktail, but the other side of it is he did not want attention. He did not want the media to know him as a great name or make up a name on him
or towards the cops he did not want to even keep killing, and this is why he did it. So this is why he is more fascinating than any serial killer. I've ever met so far. Hence he's the chapter number one of my book right. Yes, now, how did he come to the is attention? What did he? What evidence did he bring into the police station? So people really didn't have to say too much. He posted a woman, seven pressed into into the station, and is it a bank and and took out of his pocket and put it on the desk. That was enough to say, I'm obviously not here for running a liquor store. I have obviously kill human beings. There's no one, I'm not a doctor. You know I don't do breast enhancement surgery. I am obviously clearly in Army sepsis outfit, which she was out of his mind, but very, very calmly, placed on the table with his brother by his side and his brother did not know what got actually got so his brother.
Probably feel guilty for something that he didn't do, but waiting forwards intention was to turn himself in phone and to be with the man he loved on his last day, which is his brother, and he thought he could ever tell his brother was. I thought and I know that one can how bad help at about. Even even me, his brother did not know he had that breast in his pocket until they were in the chair station and it was placed on the table now. What would, in terms of the confessions, how was he eager to give those confessions up or how? How fast did did convent under what circumstances. Well, the confessions were never as clear as you would expect a serial killer to confess who is now in police custody, so what it was was he kept going on and on saying I just hurt. People hurt people, I've heard so many people
he must never and I have all his belongings, so I've seen all the travel transcripts and there wasn't a time where he said I killed this amount of people. He just can only say the word her and actually a lot of serial killers do speak in the third person they're, not insane, but they'll say the head was buried there or that person was cut into fifty five pieces or spare thirty eight times, and I used to say the way in HOLLAND. Have you stopped at thirty eight times and it's like all right enough already. She was start thirty eight times and I've got no. No. I want to hear you say it enough. You sound perfectly eight times Y, and this is where I'm different to a reporter or journalist or a cop, because I am not afraid to push these guys to their limit because they are human like us and fast will get the story out. I get them use my language, a bit pissed off
I get them worked up. I get the money to hang up on this and then I I thought out. I in some of these guys are like kids, but you got get a story and I'm not going sit back and let let these get away with murder. With me in the No, let them say. Oh I hurt people I mean. I understand he tip at the beginning, but I'm not going to waste my time hearing if you're going to hurt people each book for innocent lives and he needs to account for that and he's got the conscience he's got it unlike a lot of serial pillars. So say it for God's sake and that's where I've got worked out with each and everyone. These people who been convicted of pill for our audience, the people that don't know about Wayne at Ford we haven't heard about him in fact, listen to the show Caitlin rather up a guest on the program. Two or three times now has written by a book called body parts about
at for it. But what I found interesting is when another author talks about Wayne Adam Ford, it's sheds all kinds of light on the character that I didn't know, even though I had read that entire book body parts now, what I found interesting was some of the things how one of the bodies, if you don't mind, giving this up, because this is very, very unique mean for all the books. I've read. This is the unique aspect. There was a body parts missing from one of the the the the one of the courses was found with. That could be couldn't identify because no arms and legs no head, but couple other interesting things that were also missing? Tell us what was also missing from one of those bodies? Well, the mounds it between a woman's life is missing and both breasts is missing. Yeah. Is that what you're referring to yeah? Yes, I I've, never I've. Never!
heard of that extent of mutilation? And I mean there are a few- tories for that and and some of the other aspects of win Adam for two that that they found- and you found something about cooking body parts- tell us a little bit about that. As well that was found out well, he was left with about forty that he has its members for the reason to get rid of it. This was a passing he kills, which is why the that it was not identified. What happened was he did cut the head off and put it in the fridge. I then went to work the next day, but he drain the blood out of the party in the Box of head injuries. What what he also cut the grass off to render them. I hope this came out the trial, his yeah. I I mean he put them to make this more out in the Auburn and then he drank.
Fat into a coffee. Can the the mouse between the woman flakes he he put in a saucepan? I mean, I think, that's really. As far as I want to go without one, it's quite shocking right, I think a lot of it is big cause. I think a lot of it if it's terrible to say, but it's just intrigued, you've got it in front of you. You've got to get rid of it. What does one do so making my aunt she rather vague on this one. I believe that could have been a lot of part of it intrigue and also to make the person a little bit smaller for the display yeah
so you think there was some interest in anatomy, though. Certainly I think there was an interesting anatomy, yes, because it was right there, but he found the whole situation so grotesquely far fetched and horrific of what he's done and what he was left with that if you notice he didn't dismember anyone again until the last one went to prove the graph, but he didn't disremember anything. I think he learned his lesson on the first, but obviously he didn't learn his lesson. Well enough. Now it is it possible for you to read just a little bit of correspondence that you had with Wayne that that you include in your book just- for our audience to get a real example of what is offered. Yes, absolutely. I would love to do that. If you tell me what page to turn to- and I will but let me just go back a second if I could
in Russia. It she was a woman in a trial that could have best beginning. You were playing sports, I'm waiting for Chris Use. Tell I want you to help us as much as I could, but because she felt that I was stalking her into the weighing she was very vindictive and made something up about me in that book. I must say it was settled out of court. It was the same in me and it was not true and it was proven to not be true because something was written by another person, pretending to be me and that person wanted a response from right. So she was in love that that government never came from me, but hopefully in worse. I didn't know that, and she had one way to find me and have a look because she thought I with that would help the brain from talking to help which I didn't and She slammed me, but she was proven wrong 'cause. It was settled out of court financially. So it's. If you read that part about it is so not true. Ok, you know what I really do not remember, reading that aspect of the book at all. So it made
didn't resonate with me. I think maybe it's not that I skip through books, but it certainly didn't register with me that us effect of it. So I don't know, I think, is a very good wife said: she'd written some lovely books which I've read, but I don't think she's ever met a serial killer, but she writes books on other people too, when I find him very interesting, she's she's, a good author. So I'm going to give her respect that we just had one of the paragraphs you I didn't appreciate yeah, you know I don't. I don't want to ever slag any to crime offices, they have their point of view and if they get close to a subject, they have a certain viewpoint on on the offender it's themselves. But what I find is that I have a of the camps from my experience. My research and my own experience interviewing someone for a true crime book that I consider to be a serial killer is dead. I just don't
and I think we could talk about this a little bit later. I don't side with the psychiatrist, let's put it that way, really I really don't, because I think that if under the right circumstances and again lots of psychiatrists or just paid well to give a certain viewpoint and I think that the more psychiatry is is as a place in the courtroom. The more you gonna have, I think, controversial. I think it's going to damage the process itself by having tight. We have two bigger role in the courtroom itself itself: I never thought that one very interesting point don't don't in America, and I and know about England, about England, your home, but I know in Canada it's a different thing, but it again people have heard my opinion on this, but this is for a different time, but it's definitely I can see that in America that there's a very hesitation to take
many people seriously in terms of insane and then not you not responsible for their crimes. It seems that, regardless of whether the person's insane insane comes down to to decision that they knew what what the difference between right and wrong and that's the end of it. So that's the end of the argument I have an agreement with you. I could call I'm all your you're voicing exactly what I'd like to vote. Yes, I agree with you. There. Yeah we'll talk about that a little bit later, once we go through this and then we'll give reasons why we both think like that, and certainly I like to hear what has shaped your opinions. But I'm certainly interviewing serial killers. Surely we will have some effect now. Let's, let's talk about the next, let's talk about happy, killer because a lot of people, the one people don't know about him and how I came to learn about the happy face, killer killer is the Keith Hunter Jaspers and a fascinating.
Case a fascinating killer, one of the most fascinating. So I applaud you for me to get to talk to this guy because the late great Jack Olson that's true crime, writers of all time? Really let Jess person talk in his book. I, the creation of a serial killer and you've got some stuff. That's just incredible incredible. So talk about. Let's talk about key,
Hunter Jesperson. Yes, I will again a truck driver like Wayne forward that killed prostitutes like Wayne Ford, but the complete opposite type of serial killer. Two Wayne forward. He is very, very proud of his crime. He enjoyed taunting the cops he enjoyed the process of getting rid of the bodies and going to truck stops and talking to cops knowing there for dead woman in his truck. He enjoyed all of the game, the aspect but rolling to the victims and then for getting rid of the body, but the actual killing he found quite distasteful. I find him the most distasteful person I've ever met. I have old serial killer he's, got a sense of humor, but to be proud of someone who did not ask for it. You know it's just terrific, for me
So it was very hard to swallow to sit there across from him seven hours a day at a picnic table day after day after day, knowing that he was rushing and just it all over again- and I was horrified I didn't show that on the face is a six foot, eight man, probably three hundred and thirty pounds, Oregon state penitentiary. I found him interesting because of what I read up on him. That's why I wrote him a letter inviting him one letter I received. Probably ten back.
Probably thinking, go no brain injury, which is surprising no right now the blacks in his childhood, the Good reviews, because he was cheese because he was so tall non alcoholic, never takes drugs, nothing, nothing! That would give a reason for it to be a typical Cheryl tell should, I say, totally distasteful personality, but I think something else is going to say he even next year, right so badly, but when he knew I was not going back to Oregon. He told me on the phone I'm coming to LA a California. I said yes right. I believe it may be just that. You know. I believe that you should do you know within four months the guy had cost you state nine thousand dollars, and it showed up to sell out yeah where this pretense that he killed in California and he hadn't, and he was used to look at the bodies in the front to cross until they selected out here to California and put him in the
No, it's not it's not the most, most of all limit the leasing, serial killer drama. I I don't know what it is right up there. The other thing was is that is it anybody that knows? The case knows that and you you should explain this to the audience where the first happy face: killer, came from. Why is he called the happy face killer, but I found it in trusting that I did not know your participation in kind of up the. The mark a little bit in terms of the first confession and so you do an admirable job, because that story, I didn't, I knew of the two characters but use incredible amount of light on these two characters and their involvement with the happy face killer. Very, very interesting. So please explain that the couple that were convicted. And how on earth that happened when it was the Keith Hunter Jesperson.
And how he contacted police. And why why I will definitely tell you everything and it was The Tania minute story remind me of the two people and I'll everything you everything. I got too many serial pillars. Many too many stories, many you know, so is to concentrate on the names. But yes, if my book, his front of the thing is, is that he didn't come to attention of the authorities, because the victims were The murder was to people came forward and said,
hey, listen one of one of the time came for it. So that's what I'm referring to yeah yeah. I know I know your friend's house itself what the name of the the girl from work about just got a mental block. Right now she was pretty girlfriend woman of about sixty five boyfriend, a lot younger than alcoholic trying it that it was at the woman of the name and gosh. This is me early nineties, back in Oregon, Multnomah County and she was found to be killed. Okay, she was dead now. The problem is that once on police corruption, I cannot validate, but I know for a fact that got the trial transcripts in the court records and all that stuff medications. What happened was very efficient. Okay, and what happened was he kill Tony Bennett and he has both the pot in some heavy brush in Multnomah County about a week goes by and they went out of the news and resources being killed, and only
who's got. Nothing to do with murder wanted to get rid of her boyfriend who lived in the house and was an alcoholic good for nothing. It didn't work, she called the cops. She said, my boyfriend did it and, and he, how do you know she said? Well, I know that my boyfriend did it because of what what somehow she,
have been given information because the jeans where the buttons were were cut out, 'cause Keith Jesperson cut the buttons out of tiny planets trousers when he disposed us up. So the only people to know that the buttons were cut would have been the killer peachester since the real killer and the cops. So how would this lady, the name escapes me? How would this lady know that the buttons had been removed if she had not been told that by the cops said the cops voted? This lady? She said he said you Know- will come back 'cause if you find that piece of material. That was where the jeans have the material removed. We will then take you seriously, so they came back the next day. Often she called them up. She said I've got that materials, she gave the cups of material and it did not match at the farmers. So they said, I'm sorry, you too, you know obviously you're. Also you. You have not pull Omaha last thing with Poloma Plansky or something Laverne. Her name is with him
She said you already weren't, partly because this is a setup. We don't believe you, but she kept calling the cops. She said. I know it and she got frantic. She said. I know he killed them, that's because he was there. I watched him strangle her and dispose of her well now she's admitting to a murder. So now she has a boyfriend. All locked up. Johnson Smoky is the name of her boyfriend just come to me and they lost them both that now Keith Justice on minding his own business in a truck stop. He sees it in the paper. Two people have been arrested for the motor is trying to Bennett, so he sits there in the red stop in the bathroom and he put a happy face thing: I'm the real killer of Tanya Bennett and I'm still out here till he went on to kill seven more people. After that, I think he killed eight. He killed seven more people, because law enforcement wanted to rush to close the case and lock up
the wrong people now. That is what I think would happen, but that's pretty much fixed with what I've seen documented when years go by and Keith Justice and they were hot on his tail because he did slip up on writing something his name on a on a pink slip of a car. He then says by the way I kill time Bennett now this is one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight Beverly will nice bench for my daughter might be wrong. So the cops said Miller. No, you did not kill Tony Bennett. You may have killed these seven, but you didn't kill Tony Bennett. We've got two people locked up will keep jet system was not going to let someone else take his crime, so he shouted about it and he said no. I killed Tony Bennett and the cops are like look up whenever you do. You didn't kill, Poni Bennett will do what you say. You could have all these bodies that you killed, but you didn't Bennett. It got to the point where he wanted to prove it so badly that he remembered where he threw the driving license and he thought a man on the outside. A very good reporter. For the
or Gonyon newspaper called Phil Sanford and I believe he wrote still stands for the letter and described or some people out on the outsides described where the driving license with felt was buried. He told the cops. It was a different direction. He went out with the cops one direction they couldn't find this driving license, but it's written a letter to someone on the outside and they had a group of scouts Boy scouts signed the driving license and in what keeps Jensen's brother holding the driving license of tiny Bennett say my brother did kill Tony Bennett because here's where he threw the driving license so now the half an egg and a boyfriend jumps in were released from prison after serving serving a period of time and they ever get restitution. No, neither them got restitution and the Van cabinet has now been deceased. Oh yeah, The lawyer, I saw a couple of a lawyer said. You know it was incredible. He said I have to argue
the first time I had ever argue for my client about a lot- is guilt have to prove he was guilty. It was incredible yeah, it's quite shocking. I mean to close the case. They basically let a serial till seven more people because they didn't do their job. That and believe me, I am very pro law enforcement. You know. Incredibly pro enforcement, but they are the occasional occasional that that doesn't do the best job, I'm afraid to say, whoever that was mentioning their names. I don't think they did the best job, because a sera color went out to kill seven more innocent people and that no forgiveness that yeah The one thing you've included in your book to again it's very, very horrifying the crimes of these people, Keith Hunter Jesperson. I agree with you that he most there's people say lack of remorse. It's way beyond that is callous disregard for humankind the he really did throughout these women like trash
dispose of one of the women he hide or to the under carriage of his transport and calculated along with taking gay, very much like if he were to have a deer. Try underneath and literally the spoke of this woman on the highway yeah, so I'm nothing of it just washed off the remains and figured that no one would really regarded as, anything but roadkill and he went on his way and spoke very very
candidly and casually about that yeah Angela Debris, was probably the most shocking awful killing that I've ever heard about in my entire life and yes, he went seventeen miles down that freeway, knowing that that would be enough time to make her body disappear. However, and look like roadkill, however, this girl has got a hip operation when she was young, so there was a serial number in the bit of metal in her hip, and that was what we found and then that was traced back to where she was seen last and the phone call that she'd made to her I think her boyfriend in case justices truck, was traced back to keep just the sense to save his calling card and that's another thing that tied him to the crime and that's what started going for smoking for him, which sites thought she had that he broke rations or she would have never been found. You know what, if you
could, if you could be so kind page, eighty seven he talks about a breeze in Nebraska. Would you like to read that yeah Where are we in January? Ninety five? I challenges to breathe in the brass Gus. Remember the one I drive down the my trucks at thirteen miles. She ended up looking like it to let the dm anyway. I was string from my point two months after I killed him. I killed Judy when him and a few weeks later, on March, the twenty fourth nineteen
I turned myself in for Julie's murder and not not quite terms of it, but first I sent a letter to my brother Brad confessing to eight murders in five in five years. I I wish now that I had never written, arrested, Wilcox Arizona. They flew me back to Vancouver Washington Clock County County jail in jail. I was about to get a course a a crash course in proper courtroom procedure. What to do and not to do move my case along, I was a fast learner. My brother had gotten a letter and I had called him telling him to destroy He didn't destroy it and gave it to the police. Maybe you can read just after that as well, because he's talking to you brother, this is the written note that that keep justice and wrote to his brother bride Piper seems like my luck has run out. I got into a bad situation and got caught up with the most I killed a woman in my truck. I tell the women in my truck, it looks like I truly em up
black sheep. I am sure they will kill me for this. I'm sorry. I turned out this way. I feel I have been a killer for five years and I have killed eight people, that's what he wrote to his brother yeah and he's a happy face killer. Why tell us why? Because of the day he killed Tonya, Bennetts and he's waiting to be caught and he wasn't caught and when he read the newspaper in that truck stuff, while using the bathroom, he heard that two people had been put in prison for trying to Venice murder. So he just wanted to say I'm the real killer, I'm still out there killing, and he just put a by that- put those words that he put on it on the store of the toilet. That's when he became known from that point onwards, he became known as the happy face killer, but also when he wrote lessons to tour the cops to saying the same thing he put the same happy face.
The happy faces, were what he wrote when he signed up his name, but he didn't find his name. He sighed and said his name. He put a happy face now. Just for you know again, I'm in Canada, naive and I've. I've heard of heard of this before earth would they allow anyone regardless of safety or not, maybe just for why would they allow you to be so up close and personal with with a monster like Keith Hunter Jesperson with nothing to lose outfit that him, I'm good agree upset. I actually did say that to him, because serial killers do have a victim type. They they nearly it always have a victim sites and the ones I've met so far. I wouldn't sit in deserving. Some type A lot of people would never kill a child would never kill an old lady, never kill a young, a young man, they never kill a girl, doesn't sleep around, they kill men.
Or mainly gay men, or mainly mainly people, people child, and they don't it very rarely deviate from the victim type. So I wouldn't want sat in a room with no glass with TED Bundy. He he killed college types, and I wouldn't want you to
but he is one of very few. So when you knows the minds of serial killers and wine in the what state that they're in you can somehow try to understand, although there is no to give Miss and the right, you try to put yourself in the shoes for a moment, you can understand that. I wouldn't say it in that. It seems like, even if that met me on the outside. So if you go to these guys, not that girl, friends a lot of them, they love their wife and neighbors, and co workers and friends, beautiful girls. They would love anybody, they have their own children, they have their own animal, so they have any opportunity that secure anybody they want, but for whatever reason, the I that hated prostitutes or they hated gay men or they just thought that the world doesn't need them. That's that make up why he did it. It's mental, but that's the point it's one time. So this is why I think they are allowed to sit with people.
And have contacted it and again skip the credit. People aren't allowed that because they're not I haven't, met a schizophrenic serial killer. I haven't met a serial killer that doesn't communicate normally that have had lives with people that knew them but said. Oh, my gosh is such a shock. We thought he was the nicest guy in town it fits into that demographic, which is why they graded sometimes greatest days what they call it, but they are given permission to have contact with it with their visitors and not taking drugs for not passing drugs they're not in gang. They had a victim type on the outside. They don't even have the urge to kill on the inside, not anyone. So that's another reason if you're picking up John Wayne Gacy when he attacked,
boy. That's because I was your man, his type, remember that that John kill thirty three boys and put them under the floorboards, and there was a boy in the outside. It wanted the right to John Wayne Gacy and he kept writing and kept talking kept flirting with him. He got to they closed contract level with John Wayne Gacy and John Wayne Gacy Attack. I'm sorry about that. Putting yourself in the line yeah and he knew he was being deceived. John Wayne Gacy, and that was not something you want to do with John Wayne Gacy. Well I mean it would be able to see them. Sitting is zero coloured by writing about them I don't, but I know what I mean. I think that that I think that the young men, Mean Gacy. That way. Gacy jointly is. He was homosexuals all of Europe. If you are going to again flirt as a homosexual. Then and then, if he doesn't think that that's the case- or he doesn't
the relationship was genuine. That's that's what I mean I mean you're not going in and you're not going in and talking to these killers like again potential boyfriend material, I mean No, that's not. You know, that's not the premise you're going, and I know what you mean. I correspond with someone we weren't penthouse know you can count. I'm saying no. I was not pen pals, so I understand the it is the if the relationship when you go into see Keith Hunter, just person tell us what the premise was. Why did he agreed to be interviewed by you because he truly believed and I've I've truly intended to expose the case of the Van Happening and Johnson okay and how these two innocent people were put in prison for a crime that he committed and he helps an eight in getting them out, and he wanted me to expose that. I honestly permission I would- and I I don't make promises
I don't keep. I promised him. I do that, but I obviously wanted know bit more about what I was focused on. This is why, and how and what went wrong to make. You kill all these people, so that was my focus and that was his focus, and I said I will do my best and I got both out in my book and I plan also to do a documentary on the situation where the crops didn't quite They was on the up and up. I want you to do a documentary chiselled show on that subject where justice went hopelessly wrong. I wrote a treatment called justice gone wrong, but what happened was I suddenly get it? let the thing I'm no longer allowed to go to the jail, which is why I told Keith. I am not coming back to Oregon and he said fine, I'm going to get myself to California. So that's how it happened. I I didn't say what I promise, but they record the phone line and they knew that I want is exposed there. This one,
It's get rid a lot of a serial killers, though, to if, though, if you, if you notice they're, all fighting for in you know against justice? Meanwhile they are serial. Killers seems kind of ironic well. I spoke to Wayne Ford on the phone yesterday and he's very happy that the the death penalty is in place, believe it or not, I am, I said, hold on a second. You are a serial killer sitting on. That's where I was happy that the death penalty is in place because in California, with the election it was about to be abolished, wisely, told me he says: well I wasn't given a fair trial the first time and I'm now going to have a never trial to explain that I've got. Head injury and all that and we get treated better and I'm less likely to be killed. Where I'm at here on death row by another.
Right. If you remember Jeffrey Dahmer got killed in the nineties with a toilet brush 'cause, he got life in prison without parole. Now is Jeffrey. Dahmer had got the death penalty, he would in more of it's totally is it. It makes the sense, but I thought I'd share that with you yeah very interesting. Now, let's talk about Gary Ray Bowles, because I was not aware of this serial killer. So tell us about Gary Ray, bulls and your Action with him. Yeah. My interaction with Gary was again he he actually approach may use a faster to approach me first. He saw me Montel, William. I wanted,
show and he wrote me a letter and he said he likes someone to write a book on him. So I said I will be happy to try to find someone to write a book, but I don't like books. I actually do on camera stuff I like to interview people on camera, so I thought well, maybe one day I'll write a book as well and I went out to Florida went through my background check tied the camera. People interviewed him on camera and then I also visited him the following weekend in the visiting area, where we sat down at a table from eight a m to four p m on both Saturday and Sunday. So I did actually start documenting him for a book in the visiting room and on camera for a potential tv show. When I interviewed him, he claimed that he killed six
homosexual child masters. I could not believe that he could meet six homosexual child molesters in less than a year. It's maybe he met one or two and I was going to get to the bottom of it and what I found out and after realizing that he has a screw loose where he seems to think that homosexual men have to be child listed, and that is so far from the truth. It's like same straight men, let little girls all of them. I do believe he went one man, the first man he killed. I forget the name, but he did put in a video tape because he was just man's roommate and vhs tape he put in and saw this guy having sex with an eight year old boys. From that moment it triggered when he was molested as a child by somebody and he waited for him to come home and he took a big stone and he killed him and from then it was just the messiest cereal color that I've ever known. He didn't cover his tracks. He left fingerprints, he just kept going from place to place and he did outsmart the cops, but he has got the lowest cue of any serial color I've ever met, but he is the sweetest one as well
I know that sounds hard to believe, but he's got a very sweet disposition because he was filled up with drugs which drugs and alcohol is just the root of all evil and he was filled up with that and his wife were crossed from a very young age, believing that homosexual and are also child molesters, and I told him after it I mean if killing and how it happened. I said that Gary that wasn't a child molester number two thousand three hundred and forty five and six they were trouble lesters, he said part by, would have brain How do you know they would have been because I know I could tell that I would have been a child molester. I said that you spend ten minutes with them when you were hustling too. He was a hustler and he wanted to give
and up to some guy for a certain amount of money and they said I'm not paying you so that's when he killed him. He said: there's nothing to do with him being a child molester. You killed that guy, because you were on drugs and alcohol and he didn't pay you the correct amount of money. You killed that guy because he got rough with you. You killed that guy because you just didn't like the way he spoke to you. Where on earth could these people have been chard listers outside of the first one and he didn't have an answer for me. I said you hate gay men, don't you Gary, and that was it I mean he he just stumbled. I mean that's the truth and then you have this kind of stuff on camera. To I do I have on phone. Again exclusive interviews of all my hard drive waiting for to put it with a show, let's just say so. I've got sing to me. They're not going to interview with anyone else and they're. Very loyal is the loyalty that these guys have had I've known him for about five or six years. I can guarantee you, nobody on earth will ever
Do you have big? Is he wanted to be with anyone else, but me that goes for waiting for that goes for quite a few people. You know you got it, you gotta give up their loyalty to receive it, and I always send him a postcard when I go to different places. I know that sounds bad, but I send them a postcard. I don't write long letters. I don't do any flirting, none of that, but every six, eight months, if I wanna convention or doing traveling. I will send a postcard and that's it. I do not come down their crimes. I think it's terrific, but to get these people to speak to really open up, which is what the world we want to know how these people take. You've got to open up a bit of yourself, you kind of got to just treat them semi human because they are yeah and Gary is about to be executed probably next year anyway, and he wants me to go to the execution. So that would be a first experience of my life and I would go because again four years ago, I made that promise for him and I do keep my promises
Well, interesting, yeah, I don't think of it you to take the camera in there, though no cameras in the exit Anywhere in America and Europe now another interesting serial killers is Robert Bobby Joe Joseph long. So Robber Bobby Joe long but your laptop terribly tell us about this person. This is very interesting guy, unlike your last person that you said, had a very low iq. This disguise a lot. A very interesting guy. Tell us about Robert Bobby Joe, lungs are very arrogant guy. He loved, I think two women in his life love and adore them, because they were these respectable. Ladies, if they waited before they slept with him and he had good relationships with them. However, when it became a strip,
the matter of a you. He would wipe them out like they were just trash and it horrific Lee so and he get his in denial. He claims that he, it was not him. So really, although he sent me numerous letters, it got really nice handwriting he's not somebody that I could get anywhere with because he's in denial of doing anything. So I don't be wasting my time, but I did bump into him, and I mean that I did bump into him in the visiting park. They call it the visiting park in Florida death row where we're all sitting at tables, not in a cage like California death row, you sit inside a cage with your but Florida, throw you're at tables and there's about twenty and there's one lady at the end, one officer and that's it and you got twenty killers with their visitors. Well, because he,
So I was visiting Gary Ray Bowles. He dragged his poor mother from another state to school there that we can for both days, so we ended up in line for lunch and there I was with Gary, and I said Gary, you know Bobby Bobby Gary and they don't each other and yeah. I know him yacht that. Okay, all right, you too, if you don't seem to get along, so that some not very so anyway called me and I had a chat with him. Gary went back to sit down and then I find out that you're not allowed to talk to other inmates, but you know I have a chat with him and I chatted with his mother. I mean, if you look very like his mother and then I went back and sat with Gary, so yeah. That was a few serial killers in the room that day, I met three little,
the last name of the other one, nothing like it was hard to know. He asked me to wear a blue dress or do wear a blue dress. I wore a red one just because I do not want to be told what to do by serial color. I wore a bright red one, not out of blue on it and you can blue on me with my eyes. You know that's it, so they can tell me other people what to do, but they're not going to tell me what to do yeah. I guess not now. Why is Robert long in your wife, you? Why did you deem it necessary to put him in your book? you say that he really couldn't get any headway with him. Why did you to include include in the book then, because I spoke to a lot of lot surrounding his case. His got some of his trial transcripts and he'd written me a lot of lessons. So I included him in my book because I met him. I had a lot of correspondence with him and I
and the people around him in law enforcement. That would tell me about how we're I think he was so. I thought I found interesting night, but he was the one that says he was zero for that, but he didn't do it. The toll yeah, I feel he's very kills. It kills. What is what was he convicted of and what was his signature like? What was some of the home aspects of the crimes that he did commit. Well, I mean you take it was always strippers and prostitutes and he would strangle them and he would beat them up. I don't think he had a signature. I don't think we had a specific signature. He was not messy. He covered his tracks well and again. Typically, quite a quite a I I q from what I remember, but that's that wasn't the most intriguing of my book. I can tell you number five. If you want to go there, absolutely I do want to go to Robin get because I must say I put him in my book because he's been convicted and he's been charged with
accused of being the leader of the Chicago Repos, I sat with this man. I know him well and not just that I've got all his trial transcripts and I really really do find it very suspicious that the was changed, and the reason is that is on the eyewitness. Testimony of one of the prostitutes that survived, we have restful being cut off and she is in a drunken state, meaning she just come out of surgery. To put it right back on picked woven, get out of a lineup due to the shirt he was wearing, and only that and I believe the real perpetrator who is always at the wheel perpetrated was actually the less likely.
To be executed in Illinois before they get away with the death penalty. I think that person did it and what happened was rubbing he's not not a likeable man he's not likeable, and I can see that he was the boss of a number of guys and it was the employees he had committed the crime but times that Boston. Now, now am just just saying that this is. I do not believe that that Robin Jack was the one who orchestrated those killings. He had a wife and I believe he was home with his wife. I know his daughter and he was a very good husband and a good father, and I I'm truly in my heart. What what I'm saying is. I think there is grounds to open up another trial and to test the dna, and he sat there for now hour or two with more ninety offensive waiting to get his dna test. It so he's you know he's not like.
Looks like it is pretty angry these pretty hungry, but you know what, if I was innocent of the crime that I've been convicted of, and I am sitting there with fifty six thousand and seventy more years to go I'd, be pretty angry too. So my point is: I would like to find a way to get a dna test it, but the state don't want to do it because too many people say there innocently well. I sat with that guy for five straight days, hours and hours and hours again at a table. No glass, no cage, no, nothing, and I firmly believe that there's a lot of suspicion around him as well. Maybe he did not have anything to do with it. So that's what I wanted to say on that one quite important: what was the Chicago for our audience and myself. What was the Chicago rippers? What was that? What was the crime referring to tell us about the details of the crime any early 80s there were four men going around killing prostitutes in,
Chicago area, their signature was they were cutting off both breasts or one breast when they were left for dead. Well. Most of these, ladies died. One survived, Beverly Washington. I have tried to track her down and obviously cannot because she has since died. I found out through law enforcement, she has passed away but years later and that's what there were two brothers involved that worked for Robin gag. So, of course the two brothers are on each other side. One was executed for the crime, one is in jail and I don't know if they received the plea deal, but he is due to be released in the next five to ten years of being part of the ripper crew. They call them the Chicago Ripper crew, a group of serial killers, and they say the alleged leader of the pack was Robin
and I do not believe that that is the case now. This case is affected you in as far as that, you are dedicating a fair amount of your time and focus on the wrongly convicted. Maybe just explain that, yes, that's where most of my focus is right now is on the wrongly convicted inspired by man in Oklahoma death row, who I met in two thousand and ten ten by the name of Jeffrey David. I I will
my name for the fact that I know he was an innocent man. I know one hundred percent, not ninety nine percent. This is where I put everything on this. I did get help in getting him three stays of execution. I proved that this path that had no motive to kill his uncle, I prove who probably did- and I also found the arresting author system seventeen years before, who went on camera for me saying about the corruption in Oklahoma at the time- and I sent this to the governor Lieutenant governor, the ACLU, the camel lemon seaboard, the pardon and parole board- and I sent it five days before he was scheduled for its first execution. Then he received a thirty day today. I came up with more evidence within those thirty days. Then he got a sixty days day. I got it three stayed up between close friends with his mother. I did everything I knew in my powers to come up with what the defense hadn't am. I did it and I was dealing with a lovely government called Governor Brad Henry well in two
eleven Jerry. I think the seven a lady got him and took over and should see Jeffrey David Matthews had received three days of execution, China Evans too She executed an executed man and I'm telling you he was innocent, and this is what has compelled me and inspired me to go on to the innocent people in this country today, because believe me, there's a lot on death, rows and thither. I would like in prison and if anyone is going to find those people it's to be, me because I'm going to dig deeper than anyone's ever gone before, because this is what I do. Yes, I you for that, and you know you're, not the first, the journal list than author was come on the program to talk about. I mean there there paddle Connor is has come on a couple times. He has written books about the wrong, convicted. In fact, he introduced me to a gentleman it's on the twenty eight, Mr Griffin,
and he anyway not wrongfully convicted, but we're talking about the wrongfully convicted and in just in general injustice. We love, you are judicial system is a beloved system. We will we we Cherish it we wanted to protect us, protect us from these monsters and yet at the same time we know of numerous cases in America is rife with this that there's all kinds of students and universities working fern for free, dedicating their time and energy to the wrongfully convicted, and there's enough is there enough information? Of course, no one approaches these things, frivolous only they want to know that there is a really good case, and I applaud you too, when you read all the trial transcripts incident,
incredible the amount of information it contained therein and how many people don't review those transcripts? In fact, all the appeals they wouldn't go through all the transcripts of the trial itself? That's not really what the process is so it is a very interesting what you're doing on behalf of some of these people that you are firmly convinced are innocent. I I really do, and I thank you for that. That's where my heart really really truly. Like I mean one person execute. Out of a hundred is one person to many just cannot happen and if I'm the one to help stop, it makes I don't know why it would be a trouble maker and ruffled feathers, yeah I'll, do it I'll, do it, because it's saving someone's life and giving them back to the family, which is what it alone, but I want to fight for them to get restitution as well right Now the thing is this: serial killers up close and very personal you've talked a little bit about some of the people that Criticized you, and
especially in one the case we spoke about this evening in general. What is the? What are you finding in terms of with this book came out a while ago ago. Actually, two thousand eleven, but with this book, what kind of response have you gotten and in terms of attitude? wise in terms of interviews that you had about this book is for people's perception changed since you've written this book. Yes, it's because of the media making up through terrible lies and stories on the the book gave me the credibility back that I've always had and the reputation the pristine reputation, but I've always had an built up, so the book was good. I have I respond nearly to everyone writes to me on my website, that is, Victoria right, store, dot com and I respond if it's good or if it's bad. But I honestly, I can't usually ninety eight percent of people, writing really good things, and I respond
exactly the same way as I responded to my is to present the sage. Are you sick, you're talking about the people that you know would be the ones that want to know about, and I write back and explain: here's? Why do it and and I've had some lovely responses back from the people that attacked me a rich and said, I'm sorry to be hard on you. I didn't mean to I said, no problem, it's a subject matter which I expect people to be met and hard, but you know what we can't hide these people away forever, because then, when are we going to ever learn as to what forms these horrific monsters? If there's not someone like me writing about it or incredible networks like investigation discovery which is based on, Just fine people, architecture, investigation, discovery, that's what it new idea at it I mean I would take teaching that network. You don't love me stuff up, I'm not writing books. You know about my wallpaper, I'm writing books about what the public wants to know what they want to read and what they want to watch
and there's a fascination that will always be there. But the underlying fascination which I'd like to think is redeeming is that we really want to stop these months from being made. I don't believe home like this. I think. Formed in made with a childhood that neglected and abandoned and abusive and is Well, I think I'm a little help to society that but I'll be even more of a bigger when I go after those innocent people, trust me well I I don't want to play devil's advocate, but for those that you know what is the, I believe that we need What's the difference between pushing these killers for information, while at the same time you know again you can the myth away, making all this money, from writing about this. Is there some balance between the incredible wealth, your mail
from writing? True crime? You know again tongue in cheek, but the the the benefit of interviewing these people who lots of times, obviously wanna talk, even if it's just to you. They they still not every killer, wants to say anything about their crimes. For those that you're just giving these people a venue to be able. To wallow in their narcissism and their need for celebrity. What exactly do you believe, if you haven't gotten it already? What do you think you can believe and ascertain from interviewing these people serial Killer, last or crime of passion kill again then the killer, satanic, washed. The killer is so different, even in the group, a serial killers, its themselves so different
it's. The most bizarre mindset on earth you learn from each of them every day and you learn that this life and what I've learned is human connection is the most important. Thing in life and each and everyone of them has its something common and that's called these become isolated and isolation comes from not saying hello to someone when you walk into a gym or a coffee shop. Isolation comes whenever the world ignores you, and then you could end up in an altered state of reality or go around killing people to feel powerful, we're losing the connection with human beings in the world today, gotta, please. I and these facebook accounts and twitters and twitter I'm not on Twitter. I don't know what it is, but it's something all this people can't communicate anymore. So therefore, there's no human connections and the lack of it it's going to be porting isolation. I want to bring back the connection with human people. I want to bring that back and if I really can bring it back to a few people, there are going to be happier people there'll, be less oppressed, people, less isolated people, less people living an old state of reality or hateful because it should
bring out of isolation; they really don't have much to hate, because when is a a truck driver and just justice in the truck driver there isolated a lot of their own with no one to talk too, and they confessed her in their devious port, but you can't stuff there if you're always connected human beings, so I feel that by learning so much about these killers talking to them one on one going in deep I've learned and evolved myself, because my goal in life is also to bring back that human can with people. So that's another reason as to why I do it and I haven't made worldly wealth on my book. I can assure you it's not age. You can book. Ten fifteen years ago when I was about twelve, maybe but I
You know I mean I at the end but anyways. It said this is one of many reasons as to why it is a fascinating subject, but, as I said, I'm also branching out into other areas all all. Well, I think the whole world would want to know about, and that's really the people who've been serving time for a crime. They didn't commit, that's a little much much more boxed audience and it's a much more interesting redeeming thing for me to write about next time and did you notice on yeah. It's not like you've just done this and scratch the surface you for contacted twenty of these serial. You ve gone in depth, Eve he really roll up your sleeves and and done some incredible research getting the kind of information that's contained in this book to kind of hi just gripping stuff coming right from the these monsters own miles. We talk just briefly about psychology, so I'll just go back to it because
I think it's important because in in the very first chapter you talk about a doctor, Burke and he was talking about Weight Adam forward and he was saying he didn't believe that He really was aware during the murders of what he was doing and he was like, MAGIC pilot conscious, of course. I know from my experience that this is a consciousness that unconscious yes, but not like the dictionary version. It's a different one where you certainly are physically medically conscious, but apparently legally and psychiatrically unconscious, again. I wanted to talk about not so much because what's interesting about America difference in Canada is then a fraction of one percent of all murder cases are deemed. Someone's deemed not criminally responsible and on you know, unlike what some people's perception is,
there really isn't a lot of people ever that are put into mental in to turn to a few years later, just let out free and to be able to walk and maybe possibly reaffirmed But what we were talking about is that is your reaction in the book in your you, your own voice. Obviously your character in this book. All your adventures going through security trying to get around the rules, like you say, you're, a journalist, do what you have to do to get things done, but you did talk about your conclusion, as opposed to Dr Berg with weight, Adam Ford, so tell our audience what you think about that assessment, the psychiatric
valuation or assessment in an after interviewing when Adam Ford and all the people in your book. What is your conclusion about? What did you wrote about in this first chapter? Even I think I'm getting what you're saying I'm gonna go with what I think. Yes, thanks to stop me if I'm wrong, but you know it was great friends, expect high interest psychologist and he analyzed Wayne in the way that he was trained to analyze way. She can't be trained to communicate and that's the talent that I have and it's a good one and communication with people open them up to really a lot more than what a psychiatrist can learn. So I understand that Dr Berg did put Wayne in that category that I think black out at the time, but
You know why he blacked out. How much do you back out? We want that. So I I don't know how much your your your question correctly, I'm doing my best yeah. But what point was people asking out, or was she saying that he dropped out? Because you know everyone is responsible for their actions? I think the schizophrenic he should be punished just as much makes no difference, but I'm with you on that. But I don't know the question what you're saying I mean the analysis that I come up with is just having human communication. I don't have. Yes, I have not been trying to the psychiatrist. It's Bobby on me. I'm not saying that I'm either hi, yes, hello, because I'm not I'm just able to communicate, and I'm really good at getting people to open up to me. So that's where I probably got a lot more out of Wayne than any doctor ever could, and that includes all the people in my book and more so that's where I'm coming from. I don't know if I question well, basically, you know the psychiatrist had
he's, not responsible, because, of course he can't remember and again you say he interviews him for a few hours and then he makes this assessment. That's totally unprovable wow. I don't believe. I don't believe that I don't agree with that. How do you keep rocking out killing someone? I don't understand that that is something about. When I do not understand, I have never focused on it. I focus on a time insulting from the mall. I think that, thank you I mean who kill some insecure about it. The only way, the only reason a person should kill another human being is only in self defense. Nothing else, no reason for it.
We need to bring back the love to this world and not the hatred I mean really. I thought I really don't know why psychiatrist want to put them in a box, because no human being is worthy of going in the box, because we are all so different. Everyone of us and Chill is included, so it's just. You can be trained what you want, but you're not going to get out of a serial killer. What I can or person. Well, I think, there's the move towards believing somehow that you can fully comprehend the mindset of these people that you and I and the researchers in the authors and and the academics have not been able to figure out. Of course, we can see Here's maybe a recipe for disaster. Here's something you know again? Isolation, neglect, abuse, alcoholism, drug drug use, incest, poverty
You know no stability in terms of home life. You know witnessing horrific events, the something but then again there's a multitude of people that have experienced far worse and our ordinary, productive, regular citizen. So again, it's it's! It's not like a psychiatry steps in there like they can offer explanation, and I won't go into it, but in care that we actually believe that we have now psychiatric rehabilitation, and you do a little bit of research about the person that killed on a greyhound bus and cannibalizes victim. This person after three years, is walking with an escort outside the institution with the prom.
Of escorted visits in a short period of time. It's it's like psychiatry. The psychiatric. Industry in Canada is true to turn this person into a poster boy, for psychiatric rehabilitation and reintegration into society. 'cause you'll. Never the charges he's not criminally responsible because of insanity. And in a short period of time. They were marveling at his response to these again I think it's ridicul, This anti psychotic drugs- oh my gosh, I am I'm in such shock. I've got to get myself up off the floor in my chair. I know about this case that they should have been shot at Ber. I cannot believe you're telling me this this guy it's not just up to breed another day, but I had to I know about the case and I just said come over about it because it was what a year two ago.
It was it was three years ago, but I I don't agree with the you know. I I I I think there should be a difference between the that the hunter just persons and person and in very which I can agree with. The insanity If it's proven, you know there, some people that have done some incredible things and they are insane again. I still think you have to be responsible, and I I I just do not see the difference beat it. Like rehabilitating a serial killer or real, facilitating an insane killer. Ironically, I have a program next week. She vendor. Person was accused of murder I'm not criminally responsible in the US and in Iowa, I believe, is released and has written a book. Can be on the pro, so you I'm, maybe I'm going to hear him. I'm going to listen to his argue
Then there is differences in the degree of again. Detachment from reality. Insanity. Again I have an open mind, but this is where I have less of an open mind, especially when I see a case, and I see the development of psychiatric defense. In Canada. So, I'm not to say America watch out for the liberal ization of your courts, but if it gains ground anywhere in any jurisdiction. You can be assured that some defense lawyers go going to try to trot it out in another jurisdiction. I know it's not perfect in this country to each pathetic in England too, and let me tell you that that's horrible human being she ever lost their who tried to kill that darling, Giffords lady and killed all those innocent people in a child's well that guy went to court last week and he did not get the death penalty.
I don't know what this world is coming to. They are all rolling over, they can say: yellow they're weak. I think that Keith Justin Jared Lasner, your guy in the bus. All of them have to be held responsible for what they do equally, it makes the difference if they need to be proven to the criminally insane. They kill an innocent person. We don't need to waste our time to find out if they're criminally insane, they kill them innocent person. It's done it's done. We don't want them to ever come out of a building again, it's not even for a breath of fresh air, like you're, saying the guys walking around the get ground he doesn't deserve to. I don't agree with the death penalty because they can get it wrong, so I'm not saying that I'm just saying like this. We should not see the light of day he quickly. I don't care. If they don't know, I don't have and that's what I might. That was my opinion and till the till. It's a I have any kind of evidence to disprove that because I am just not confident at all.
Number one about rehabilitation of killers to the idea that there is such drug to render this person harmless? I see it I've never seen any evidence of that, and that's that's where I stand on that and in terms of the death penalty. I do not agree with it because again you can get it wrong and in terms of its life, prison is not enough. Then. I think that the to criticize that have certainly not done very, very little time in prison, I would think if there they're thinking that again, we just talk about it last week. The threat of imminent death, like Jeffrey Dahmer, experienced it is, is something that these people live with every day. So there is no picnic in prison for killers. I really don't think there is.
Well, there is, there is a need to say it, I'm not going to tell you what goes on in California, I'm not going to say that other places, but in some prisons there are yet Florida and Texas there's there's not so there's a little bit of a picnic going on in certain areas. Let's just see that and again it did. These family members is the most important people in the world have a family members of the victims, and they do not want to know that there's a picnic helper, they really don't, and I know I write books on its own actually almost contradicting myself, but I'm really doing it to learn then to teach other people and show other people, but seriously they should not be famous for this asshole. Nobody, none of them should, but they should all be locked up and actually the key thrown away, and I mean that with insane, since it makes no difference. Yes well of Victoria, its pages, fantastic speaking with you tonight, your your books, serial killers up, close and very personal, your death row interviews with the most dangerous man on the planet.
This is an eye opener, an incredible read and you get if you want to get close to a serial killer. It really is via Victoria red Stall, because she's right there in the room admonishing these killers for an excellent asking for an explanation for their horrific I applaud you, your one brave cookie here, and you brought us a great great great story, and I slide your new sort of day. Direction, I'm sure you won't give up on the serial killers because they certainly won't give up on you but I put you new direction. I look forward to your next project, which should be right on the corner. No doubt, but thank you, yeah. But thank you thank you for having me on the show, and I greatly appreciate you inviting me to be on your show. So thank you for that. Thank you very much. You have you have a good evening. Okay, bye, bye, good night good.
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Transcript generated on 2021-06-10.