SIX INCHES DEEPER-William Rawlings | True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers Transcripts

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amazon, fire tv, it's like cable channels, tune into pdf, it's everywhere. You are and more the you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker d t k every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author, then, as if asking the good evening on august thirty, first nineteen, seventy two helen,

eggs a pretty thirty four year old mother of three disappeared from her place of employment at wilcox advertising and val dastard georgia. After a brief investigation by, local and state authorities. The case when cold in the fall of nineteen. Eighty, a farmer clearing a field south of town discovered a buried object. box containing the dismembered remains of the missing woman. After several months of investigation police arrested, foxy wilcox, his son keller, Wilcox and too long term african american employs of wilcox advertise. It color was charged with hanks murder any others with concealing a death. The wilcoxes were member, a prominent wealthy about ass the family to defend their case, they hired fame defence attorney Bobby Lee cook

their wilcoxson murder trial. In january nineteen. Eighty two pitted cook against the local prosecution team, led by district attorney, Lamar call the case against wilcox wasn. Tiredly circumstantial, making the outcome uncertain after a trial marked by controversy and conflicting testimony, Wilcox was convicted and sentenced to life prison all the while proclaiming his innocence in nineteen eighty five, he was freed by a federal Judge based primarily on is the harsh and irrigation of the black witnesses. The true story of this horrific murder has all the elements of a work of suspense fiction, money, power, sex race and the haves versus the have nots. Multiple lives were forever changed. The outcome would have been totally different if the box had been buried only six inches deeper. The book that we're featuring this evening is six inches

deeper, the disappearance of Helen hanks with my special guest author, william rollings, welcome to the programme. I thank you very much for this interview, william rollings. It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you by asking me thank you so much and congratulate on this book. I just discovered it. As I mentioned speaking to beforehand. This book was released in twenty twenty butter. I've just discovered your work, and congratulations on this incredible. But let's say it: let's get right to veil dusted. Georgia, maybe can just tell us where the says you face about fifteen miles to the south of the floor, to state line, but tell us a little bit about bell dasa and end the war person, a person named earnest keller, wilcox senior and how we can.

The b in the area and his background, veloster georgia, is the town of perhaps forty thousand or so people in the extreme south of the site of george bridge is a part of the state that historically was nothing but great pine forests and later on became, I was turpentine production and in fact, most of this area is probably where they are on the bond, because there's not a lot of industry, then a lot of agriculture there now but found therefore, the fact that the interstate airline was pushed through the nineteen sixty, isn't it soon became a regional centre

I thought of an hour and a pure vanity in the middle of the reality. If I can use that term and a lot of it is sort of the dominant, a town in the area, the wilcox's were there since the early part of the night of the twentieth century and the grandfather of taylor wilcox, who was the prime person in this saga, was an attorney, as was his father the box sake. They did well business wise and married well over the years, and so at the time this this tale took place. They were very well respected family because of their tenure of things in the south have less to do with money than they do with family and social connections, but also they might a good bit of money and were fairly wealthy, though, with her, as I say in the book, I think the creme de la creme of the south's society, you talk about to foxy, Wilcox dear having a background with his grandfather being

he and his father, but you say that he soon lost interest in the law. Tell us about what his new interest was to get destroyed the the person and eventually and involve indicted most prominent. This murder was howard wilcox, who was born in nineteen. Fifty his father, foxy wilcox, was an attorney who, like many attorneys over the years, may turn to something else, and he became very successful in the outdoor advertising. And that's where my truly income came from power, on the other hand, was at the time of this store and began was just in the midst of colleagues you just got married was the younger younger man. He was the only child, these two parents, and certainly he was he had before him a bright future. These simply maintains that which he would inherit. So, let's let sort of sense. The background for what happened then, in august, by teams

They too, you say they were prominent people in this community, but then tell us a lot a more about this advertising company, and its employees and what they actually did and some of the challenges or the the challenges that face them in a nineteen eighty tobacco out nor advertising means pursuit prepare hordes. As you are probably aware, elbow

is there everywhere, prior to the administration of Lyndon Johnson, the late nineteen sixties. They were unregulated, more or less than federal, ours and and the company, in fact, the entire industry a billboard and trip. I saw the challenges about getting their billboards up as I did well. They did well and both foxy, the father and teller and the sun, as they both had the same name, which was ernest keller. Wilcox did the they did quite well in the business and head markets all across south georgia and was far things were really doing well. Their employees consistent with the father and son in the office, and I will have a secretary, perhaps face abuse announcement by the main fleet of their boys, were persons who put up and took down the bill watched. These were all african american and that that came into play later in the story now talk about

this business that they had and they had a secretary. They joined a nineteen. Seventy two, the same time that the same year that Keller joined his father in this company as us

salesman and and marketing. So tell us a little bit about Helen Griffin, Helen griffin hikes she was married to a man named James was thirty four years old at nineteen seven. Seventy two she was the mother of three children. She had wore to a very rarely very intelligent. Lady from all that I have been able to find out. She had previously worked for another timber company baron called austin, but had come to work early in nineteen. Seventy two doi twenty percent raise giving her a weekly salary of one hundred and twenty dollars per week. Her husband, James hines, was a prison guard, making only a modest salary in between the two of them. They were raising three children and probably struggling a bit, but she was

he was said to be very intelligent, very hard, working and very honest salt of the earth got a person who was in a position of secretary does come. Tell us about the situation with teller in terms of marital status and then going to college thou dost college. It at the time is not about our society in europe but each daughter of college and early on had wanted to go to medical school supposedly, but that didn't pan out and actually after about his in his third year of college, he actually dropped out and went to work for his father full time he had been going out with a girl named jean king SJ,

king? Ah, and they were married in around the first of august. Nineteen. Seventy two, incidentally James father, willard king at that time was working part time for wilcox outdoor advertising, nasa to embarrass her mechanic type jobs and other related. He would later on become become a full time, employee of coming by the time he was working part time so in august, in so many to carol, Wilcox was unduly away and things were apparently ones on until wonder. You wanna talk about c neil Joe anderson and the merit the switch up. That happened. in the marital life of these two couples. Well, I can it happens later, own sort of athens if our own and story he and Jean

We're were a member of a social girl, and there was another elena and neil your house, and you by our voice, was very handsome. Billy johansson was very handsome police officer. He was married, as was car, and they raw ran a social group together. A few years later, it turned out that both gene housewife and neal Johansen swipe file for divorce within a few days of one another and that voices were granted with a few days to one another to which lighter later one gene married neal, Johansen and keller was single and, as things would go on a few years later, near johansen died under what I would say a suspicious circumstances and was said to have died from autoerotic celtic sexy asian at least that was near consensus of the corner and others

examine the situation. Tom Keller later went on to marry another lady and named sonya, and he got married around the first of november nineteen eighty, so it had been his marriage to Jane, was fairly short, lived and by nineteen eighty, which is a critical year in the story he was. He had remarried for a second to be remarried, of course, America, let's go back, and so let's go back to Lamar advertising, and we talked about the situation where things were changing with the beautification act and but also The that Lamar advertising was offering account services to small companies like wilcox advertising, so an army it's twenty ninth tell us about this plan and in the plan from the for the comp

money to meet in atlanta with foxy and color is kind of hard to imagine a david back in the dark ages before computers, I guess we're all lived through those books were being jet by and by the nineteen. I use them the years of pilot, were starting to transition when everyone moved from hand written book keeping to the computerized bookkeeping, wilcox advertising recognized that it needed to move up and the site had an affiliation agreement with Lamar outdoor advertising wishes. well known company. In that, do you own, I believe it was august, twenty nine nineteen. Seventy two our and his father went to atlanta and you have to understand that for them all

as part of the state of georgia, the drive to allow and met with others, including the executives of the more advertising they stay there for a couple of days and return back to about. After all, the thirty first of all arriving sometimes tat afternoon and at the time bravo. Chemical did your lighter now. This is according to foxy and keller about their time. Arriving back from this trip back to the office. What do they observe? What did they report? How does how does it the police find out about what happened? tell us what happened since they get back to dissolve office according to them, well, accordingly,

and I got back to the office and the time actually berries. There were several times that they, since I got back to the office a but when they got there, it was apparently around or thirty by the nuke. Between four and four thirty by the initial report, I will make a clear: they came up and Helen hikes. The secretary her car was in the parking lot. The keys were in the ignition lay opened the office door, which was unlocked. The radio was playing, the lights were on and they call for their secretary Helen. She was not there at lisbon. Oh, she must be in the restroom that one you manage to knock on the door. She was there. They searched the boys and poured into the issuance governing allowing all she was now. There was no no indications where she wouldn't happen, so they call the police of the police, arrive, perhaps around five thirty or thereabouts again, there's some slight controversy. They made up fairly entourage,

investigation of these saying and they laughed thereafter. The harm that they lack was a police work was issued controversy, the police about six thirty other said. Perhaps his line is eight o clock that those numbers book an important point on the story. As unloaded keller had been married to Jane can only about three weeks and that night there was a pause already being given to the newlyweds at elegant. Little country resort named ocean part right and they would do there at seven o clock while for whatever reason I couldn't do not arrive at that time. I called and said that the delay in didn't arrive until nine o clock. They were apparently checking on the missing secretary. Now you talk about calling his his wife calling his wife gene and and telling her tat he got in at a certain time, but that was around five o clock what it say, and this is important at later what time,

did, he say, did he came in and what did he tell her at five o clock regarding this ocean ponds thing that invisible? to attend on their behalf, while he told his wife and naturally that he got in three fifths- Dana three thirty the afternoon and later as this things, which sort out there was, but the authorities could establish a fairly good timeline as to when they left at land on self was informed so that them seems like it would have been correct later when they were conversations with the socrates at tat. The time role later, perhaps what the heard, even those that doesn't in a bunch of an hour hour and a half. There is the when they actually arrived. Apparently they were in one car. They went to. I believe the elder will conscious house on his house. Drop him off, went back to the office and then supposedly he the elder wilcox box. He came down to check on the situation. The party where say newlyweds were due to attend. They should have,

was gone together and this was a big deal and, as I said, these were these were prominent members of the community, and the party was sponsored by some other prominent members of the community. It was a social event and one that she would not there be light to, and yet, as I neither foxy nor his Ah, there were their own time. They both shown up together about nine o clock. In the evening he told his wife tat. She should go ahead because he would be light. He had to work about and see what's going on with a mission secretary yeah. We didn't talk about that. Keller calls a Helen hanks or her husband rot, and then he he comes to the office. What does he observed? What does he say he saw well,

he was as noted, a prison guard, and he had gotten off work at our call around four thirty and he moved by the time he got one it around five, and it's about that time or later, when keller called him and said Helen is missing. We don't know where she is. He lived in a city of morden which would have taken him. Perhaps twenty twenty five. to get to her place them on and when he arrived, shall always by air and two policemen are replacement eventually were there he searched about didn't funds. Why? The interesting thing is that when you walk out that door

when he observed keller going through Helen's pocket book. Looking for some cheese, they have to understand that she was the secretary of this. I guess the word and I wouldn't be the second assistant and my she found the keys to such things as the gas tank, what they used to gas up the trucks and he handed the pocket book to Helen's husband, James heintz, and he bitched around and found a set of tees and handed them back the keller, these were apparent as the keys to the lock on the gas car right and calamine. The unusual statement, which hikes were murmurs in the keller, said quote: she won't be needing these anymore. In quote, Ridley Sedgwick James hangs, her husband said he and his words were well now there is a assistant police chief, loyce arnold, and he also serves as the de

I'm an investigative officer. He went to the wilcox advertising office. Little bit later, tell us what he observes and some the thing right away are said to the media by police While he went and looked around the office did some fucking used the word why energy wagon and, in my opinion, didn't really didn't, seem to take the change that seriously and locked erlich privately that she had. probably run off with another man or something like this, which, if you want you got to know the lighting, it would have been totally on right, and so the case was pretty privileged dismiss the chairperson of the importance of the association gone you'll come back. You got tired of living with her husband and ran off with someone else and is now westward that there were a couple wilcoxson. Employees interview, though one was jerry David and another one was job goodman, jerry, Davis,

one of the last people suppose leader who do have seen Helen Axel. What does You have to say in terms of what he saw what he said: the learned man, interaction between color and Helen Keller. Helen about her rear end and she turned around and slapped him. I tried to slap him and apparently he had been sexually harassing her. It was also said that keller had urge your her evening, FAO world an unspoken badly about her and something calculator lad. But these these was follows boss report came along only in the case before anybody knew what the bite of Helen nice would eventually be, and so there is no doubt that there was evidence of sexual harassment. There was counter approaching no Helen. Despite the back you don't I've been merit. three which that you said I was confirmed by a second employ John goodman, but also that there was a confirmation

something else in terms of her dissidents. the satisfaction. What else was found? The doubt there was there were other it. It would come out later that she had spoken to at least two other females saying that she was being sexually harassed number one number two in her pocket book, which was still there and abandoned there were applications for employment, saying that she would be available to go to work on October first, which basically was one month after her disappearance. She intended to quit her job. She had expressed concern about several things: the it seemed to be quite well documented, and at least it came up. It came later in the investigation, but there was no doubt that that something had been going on there that had driven this woman to quit a job that she'd only had about eight or nine march and seek other employment. Now there was a person, I'm willard king, and this is kellers new.

Father in law of just a few weeks and he's a full time employ a pepsi cola boiling company in cordell, and we did have mentioned both part of that trip they had gone on. There was a stop in cordell. Tell us about willard king and scupper gimmicks. I will let you know that arab southward pronounced ain't, no frontiers actually called deal like you up, He was working in court alien on the way back from atlanta. They stopped in magnum and ye that he gave a timeline. It brought me time is when they left that city and headed to south. To Valdosta, though there was a seventy five is expressway, and that became critical, lighter one in establishing the timeline as to when they actually got there. It really is pretty it's pretty much straight road without any any deviations, and so you could accurately calculate the write of

He which in those days was pretty clear, stand up by that was import. The other thing was that he would come in on the weekends working part time at wilcox advertising and do various repair work, and when he came in a few days after Helen's disappearance, he noticed that one of the boxes that a woman he sent his two chests was missing. When I said boxes, this advertising company had large boxes that marriage and perhaps gothic long to the Y to the heart. It were covered with galvanized metal that were designed to withstand heavy use and those were where the older of pieces paper that would eventually put up a billboard which were were stored and carried. He noticed that a box was missing and that he duly reported this to keller encounter, who was sort of in charge of things at this point, also went back and forth and he

he ah he said. Well, I guess we should report that to the police, where he called the police, thus got a little scuffed moment to have. The investigator came around look at it, sir yeah. Well, whatever and didn't even make another. This would turn out there who caught a clue. Much lighter now he. Basically, you write a kind of dismisses this box and its importance and but someone else within days of governor carter, there's a perceive crime way you as you it's, so they send ronald angel. The states top criminal

instigator and agent in charge of the georgia bureau of investigation to come into this investigation. Tell us a little bit about that. I shouldn't be appreciated. This was one cat and then the disappearance of Helen hikes was one case of among several other violent crimes that had been stripes that had been murders, and the perception was that crime was getting out of hand, and so the gbr, under the fourteen states, governor moon, Kenny man and did investigated, and one of the prominent things they investigated was the disappearance repellent eyes

Heller was interviewed at that time and really did not give a depth generally different story from what he'd said earlier. He denied any era he and his all in atlanta. He had an excuse as to when he arrived and so forth, and so on and related. It didn't change anything, although I will give the gbr credit for asking they were not there at the outset, sort sorta came in after the fact and reviewed what had been done and said retrieve. We don't know what else to do which a cold case yeah. He said so that there was summoned irrigation for three or four weeks by basically no clear leads had been established and the trail when cold, ass, correct trailer, call you ride very interesting lee and pointedly the James hank says. Listen. She might have wanted to leave

but there's no way she would have left these children. That's exactly iran and very very almost bonaparte situation of the father average explain to his three children that their mother's not coming back. He apparently they had a happy relationship, and apparently everything was. It was just go perhaps financially, but they were hard working families at the loss of his wife and his helper was a galveston one not only to him, but also to his family yeah. You write. It gets worse for the family, while things get real rosy for they. Wilcox advertising, company and color and foxy in company play for family taunts at school, for the children and then one day to their horror. There's another woman in the home and things are different completely I'd say they are some lighter. James brought home another woman. He felt tat. His wife was gone and I do not what you wish you well

No one had I've had said that she was dead and you started thinking about a woman. Anyone I brought her home and that, of course, my man worse. The older daughter, lucy wood furniture, elder daughter, moved out at that point horrified by this, and the younger two children didn't have much choice and then David penny stay there and finish thera both of them who did quite well as live. I shall all the children did well at life, but nice day either? Never ended up no choice and search. It bros are obviously in a away and was even equally tragic. They with their mother, had been abandoned at all that bringing out a new woman, which I thought was something that was horrific to the children side, psychological. Well, there will be you write that he Keller joins the chamber of commerce and various other groups, and is act in the community and we just we had talked about the

The marriage switch. So let's, let's do that again, because that's in that's important to what happens soon after What was on again. Do we talk about the marriage happening that one marriage as all the other one and the switch of partners and neil Johannsen? Well after in october, I who same year that europeans and I are married, another lay a sonia Alastor Roy S, mind was, and that was in october, and I shall do this. Seven years later, I have my from it was not pope of nineteen eighty merit. That was what should the cuts, because something happened later in the month of october. Nineteen. Eighty, if you'd like to talk about that

our view- walker view some other stuff before their findings about over nineteen eighty four november. Nineteen. Eighty four gimmick: well: let's talk about what happens in that interim before the discovery by the flanton brothers in nineteen eighty, but you say three thousand in seven days missing what happens in that interim period of time in terms of the investigation, if anything, nothing by strictly was girl college, their war world watched called on all along sightings of Helen hikes. There's one collapse out: I've thought about a book from any the dollar. They saw a woman looked like she's, she thought this was her missing mother and she followed her up and turned around and when she saw she realized it was not her mother. The children certainly held out hope his husband did. The wilcox has continued to do well. Keller became an active member of the community, joining the rotary club and so forth came to

Even the state organisations about, or advertising and suck wasn't phone, and when you re merited, look look like fines, wind very well and the the Helen hines family had sort of declined and all in a bar, but the wilcox's were doing fine until the plantains came all yes and he was a volunteer auxiliary policeman as well from the mid seventies, was a national address that to what one thing about this was he always wanted a while someone would? volunteer to be a volunteer, auxiliary policeman because well, what happens when you are a member of the police auxiliary? You get to wear some sort of a uniform and kind of hang out with the police, and also you know what's going on open, so if anything had any use, it broke around the missing persons case. He would have been the first to know about, and there were several episodes during that period of time when supposed italy, the missing Helen

I should call or sent were that she was alive and well and not to worry about me is issued, run off and retrospect I believe there was always question as to who is behind those strange messages that were received. now that they were obviously not change. No one ever knew. Let's talk about the discussion free on november twenty fourth nineteen eighty november, twenty fourth nineteen. Eighty two farmers were clear in what is known in the rural south as new grout has got, though, as the Blanton brothers had purchased a ferret several hundred acre tract of land, which formerly had been in tim, were they when the timber business, but I decided that this property would be more valuable if it were cleared and used for agriculture, so they cut the timber in an award. Prepare the land for agriculture. You've got to remove the stumps and the rouge, then around that it can be cloud and there has to be. The land has been shaped. They were doing.

using what communism chisel flower more closely called. very bright, which is a type of plow that you pull behind a tractor that has been turned that dig into the saw, perhaps eight or ten to twelve inches deep, depending on what kind of fire using these ground the roots under the ground and actually cooler man with the ground, almost write them out of the ground. So you've cleared the stomps you're going through and get smaller rouge, so you can planet. And all the whole are driving along one afternoon in the Hang up on something and brother. One of the brothers wish drivers tractor in stopped and looked back there and he called, as are the brain came over and looked in the ground and it looked like the underground box of some so again like what is this doing here? You know in the middle of nowhere. I should comment that this was with sounds: thou dost, perhaps at ten or fifteen minute drive from right, wilcox outdoor out, because you know,

that far, but it was in a rural area. Again I am going to stress about lost, is is not. It is an island, urbanity and- and I and I see a girl rollins, he would have to go very far before you're in the country right, and this was on a dirt road, not that far away, and so he looked down there and said well, let's just see if we can't jerk it out of the ground with with a route right by catching one of the times on the box and just pulling it up and when he did, he noticed several bones in the box and it's like oh wait. This was a problem, and so the police were called. They came to the side immediately and there was an investigation, then sidled on crime scene. People were called as well.

The camera being been notified and a member of the oyster auxiliary was also there to see the box been dug up, and it was he who had done this. It's been similar to the missing box that had been noted by his father in law right after Helen hikes went missing, so that was the first sort of serious clue that something was no one on the the box was that there was obviously an investigation. It didn't take very long to develop to discover that the skeleton was a skeleton inside this box, along with a number of other findings. We can't get to in a moment the skull always taken to dennis too rapidly and done about. This is being the remains of Helen hides based on through the work that he has done an early Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for these messages,

it isn't just one of the world's largest transportation providers, we're a committed team, helping you get to what matters most your family, your livelihood and your next adventure getting you they're begins with our employees, who are motivated to make a difference for you every day around the world and around the corner in neighborhoods like yours, connecting you to all the places you love. That's enterprise, though you talked about the discovery of this box. other than Helen haze soon to be identified. Skelton in this box. There are sir, contentious things in regards to rigour, Mortis and this

amber meant, as we mentioned in the opening. We talked about dismemberment rival. What the situation is that there were some other, very important things discovered under the box under the box and that's a key. There was apparent from the driver for the box. The earth tat grow before the box was worth were addressed an underclothing raw pennies girl. that kind of thing and a set of at least one set of cheese where those when they were under the box and are so that those those are important things, and the the dismember much the dismemberment was not. extremely known or noted, despite the small size of the box, you have to understand that the box was kind of torn up a bit as they tried to get it out of the ground and it's hard to realize how a person who managed five feet nine inches in height. In that marked the apparently she wasn't later on when those who get less or someone noted that she had been there.

Murmured and later they re examined the bones and show signs of that. Now how to please proceed with this very new development. The same thing but were they were like loyce r, Arnold, that the assistant police chief? That was dismissing this case? How does this proceed and who comes into this case as well? Well, you'll have to understand that that this was a complicated and uncertain case where the discovery of the body everybody's, everyone said, oh gosh and the police started investigating. Well, it didn't take them very long to realize that here is a woman who was at her place of employment who goes missing and her remains were found inside of a box that came from her placement for much so that, obviously the prime suspects were people who work there. So there was, there was a shower and his fallen in the remainder of the employees were a number of african american miles. Who did they do the same work? There?

broad reviewed in some detail, and One of the said remarked that her legs appeared to have been severed and the police, the cash. We didn't see their examination and issue so on between, but they would in the months that followed, re exhume her her remains arab region, whereby the family of certain cut marks on bones. That appeared strongly suggest that the legs had been severed from the body. In order to flip this, promoting sound this box investigation driving known by April nineteen. Eighty one day, problems first backs what appeared to be power: the sun and box you father, plus two glimmer mile. One of them was why elderly was beginning to sound a little bit.

but if you were in memory urge once the police stop, they had a good case. In early july nineteen, eighty one which was approximately seven, much unloading, one, seven months after the scary I write their rested. Keller, charge of murder and arrested at the same time has ball into four miles as the consumer and in this right and that's, it france. He was a seventy seven year old man, you say, and lorenzo Marshall, sixty nine solar, both and both long time employs that's correct and and also the right away. Keller calls will be common, local attorney who he was related to by marriage? Yes, once color went once the police showed up, he kept house in the middle of night,

he came to the door in a corner, is out was surprised and they showed up, but they told him tat he needed to come down town, so we can talk about things and gypsy and wide Elise asked politely: do you want a boy and he said why should I need a warrior and they told his wife at that point, as Why does he need one unless they were arrested him for murder, at which point he asked my lawyer car will become a collar was very good lawyer and was one The honourable members of hitler's defence came thereafter. He was I going to do they all and in the meantime, his father in it and friends or marshal the two other males were arrested in while taken to enjoy all the next day. They were bonded out, Everybody went home, but that started again along legal saga. He talked about what was brought in was named attorney Bobby Lee cook, a highly respected. I

while cases and Lamar coal was the chosen as the district attorney and then they had advocate, middle hearing to make sure there was an, evidence to take before the grand jury. What is what was the two state reveal at that time? Well, the basically reviewed the japan, not reveal the testimony of the year in poor, black and ois that they had in fact been contacted on that night of august thirty, first, nineteen, seventy two by their employer do and again the testimony was a little inconsistent from one to the other, but schreiber picked up there

They were told to load a box in the back of a pickup truck. They were told to drive the road when, in the pickup truck with keller and his father, to a place away from town which, where the box was found, and they were told, to dig a horrible killer and his father watched while the whole about waist deep, which can range storage they had to

We didn't go back as a separate bit of testimony. They were asked what was in the box. One of the two at rents said that it was the body of ms hanks who, at the time, was noon. His legs had been cut off and were put in a separate package inside that box and in this aura the bones had been jumbled up when when when it was being excavated- and it was not not anything that my perception was that one anything the police did an error but that trying to jerk it out of the ground was plow sort of jumbled time to sand the bottom that was testimony that came up came thin, so they felt like the head submission of an exhibition of and as for whole keller and his fallen and found them over. At that time, I should say that concealing the death was a misdemeanor.

in georgia just now felony, so now, callaway charge, obviously with felony homicide charge the remain of needless to say, said by September. Fourth, there is a grand jury indictment, and so how does it go from there? What's? What has the proceedings, First of all, they had hired Bobby Lee cook and, of course, I'm sure enough. You listeners are Are you with ivy cook who passed away and leave last year, one of one of the is premier criminal offence, the chinese population and as I did on the wine Williams retrial right So in the midnight the guard a bit, I wouldn't want trials liar. He was set

to be the role model for matlock, certainly the kind of halfway, but he was extremely wilder alive in this part of the world on here than it was we get going down at the courthouse square window and seen this fancy rolls royce parked there and- and I said I said, who is atmosphere Bobby lee cook- he always comes in the showgirls royce, and so he had a certain style about him and he was known to be a wizard in the court room. At least he had a reputation that he carefully burnished. Sure that everyone knew he was a wizard at the corporate. So he was also very very expensive, accorded everything I could anatomy anna and the wilcock to spit on him. So they are. If you ask what happened between the time of the indictment and the time of the eventual crop which was scheduled for early ninety. Ninety two, it was series of gloomier hearings, motions and so that proceed the most trout, nothing of drama

Nothing dramatic happened in the time period. What I thought was interesting. I don't know how typical this from state to state, but the Hanks family hired a special prosecutor to assist Lamar call in the prosecution that that is correct and that that's no longer the practice and a strike, but it has been traditionally a long practice in georgia that the family can hire their own special prosecutor to assist. There obviously changes in this in the forty odd years since the trial- and that was one also there are other such things as the number of strikes will do an interview in which potential jurors. That used to be that, once I got twice as many, the fence got twice as many strikes as the prosecution and so forth. Those at all

change interesting interesting. Let's talk about this trial and the fundamentals, the prosecutions fundamentals, what they are trying to focus on and emphasise before we talk about Bobby Lee cook and we'll be common and their approach. The the prosecutions case was made difficult by the fact that it was a case of circumstantial, a certain special efforts, and you say how g well, you have sunk about it. Many if not most violent crimes are brutally not witness, buying a one except the determined and right open murder, and things like that. Some of these cases are often sharp actual could be. The motivation here was felt to be sexual. One power had been known to be a resting his secretary, in that

it'd be well documented. He did not, and while there were others who claimed in claim to give the testimony. The other thing was the discrepancy in the timelines that were given by the indicted, the that is, that the wilcox's of versus what the investigators could come up with it appears based on the investigators, have evidence the wheel, Cox's could have arrived. Home is early, as perhaps three fifteen were three thirty and that the police wealth and and they didn't shop its party until nine o clock. So it looks like there's a period of minimum of

three hours an hour and a half in the afternoon and an hour and a half into the police later than the wilcox and Tashi that are unaccounted for wash and with the prosecution's contention that these discourage was, when the body eyes, hidden and usually a lighter. They made an appeal to bury the in testimony from the from rents and lorenzo marshal the two employed. It was said that they were unable to complete to burial that night.

Came back at a later time. It may have been later that evening, or it may have been another day. You have to understand that we're eight and he ears and by that time, he'd been actually about ten years since the men in their nourishment fight, but it was clear. The birth of the body initially came back on the letter that I work with, and the body those that was the mind, mind signs and there were there were other songs to smother heart of that which I'll discuss if you'd like sure what but let's talk about the Bobby Lee cook and what he he he, how he approaches the cross examination and where he focuses in terms of testimony heath, believes that police have been we've been misconduct in their in their behavior to ensure spend you read, transcripts or transcripts of our life

the the script for play and, and you almost have to read them out loud to really understand, and it's it's it's fascinating cut was, if nothing else, a real showman and the courtroom, then there is reference made to him a lot, raising his voice and whispering at times in, and then just mean very dramatic and the way he spoke. He was given very much earlier sunny, and this is the worst case of anything Let us have a saying in my three for decades, cracks in law alone. What's happened to that effect and he basically sought to focus on the fact that there was well ass. I could and common as well. There was no hard evidence to ta kara wilcox to the case. I will make it clear in case it's not at this point. We are only talking about the trial of power wilcox because he was the only one who can travel and now I want to make that tried to get. There was no hard evidence to tat

Cowardly murder know this was in the nice course of one day and aim at those nothing else than specifically tied him to the more the fact that the day you witnessed were ass. Good american work were in interrogated harshly, to say the least is who is not anything that- police should be proud of, and was contented to be, something that was made have has some doubt as to the veracity of their testimony and basically than just a path that the case laughter I any any bit of any bit of for any conclusion that cross let prosecution, drowsy the which say. Oh that's, alright, let's talk about

crucial evidence that was possibly inadvertently thrown into that grave and provided evidence at this trial. Talk about those keys. I noticed that several times one path to get more out private, one worryingly this would. This was certainly a such an one of the times. I knowed it was that we do see staring eyes apparently had been struggle with a rope. There was evidence presented by experts of this road map probably was looked around her neck. There was evidence that her closing that, in her dress, share a blue dress under clothes, had been cut off her body, and presumably I presumably were when she was tied up in everything, and these these were all the ancillary things. The main thing that seemed to be important was the tea.

If you are all earlier said, the win James hangs came up, there came to the place through the office there. He saw a camera wilcox digging through hellenes pocket book in The comment was made about. She won't be needing these anymore. Well, two things when they got back to the office later and there was quote unquote discovered that the key and the lock to the gas pump was missing. The ellen would have been in charge that those keys were apparently in her pocket book and were apparently given to cower whether or not they got accidentally caught up in the starter was thrown.

into the grind. That was a major consideration, so it may have been that this was accidentally leaving openness. The second thing was the color, and there was a pickup truck, is bearish described as tanner, or something like that. The killer drove the only two teeth that pickup truck. They obviously drove it there and then obviously drove it back. He was careless truck, so he and I wanted to crank it up with and the other team. That truck was in the bottom of the girl so that we can send a very strong evidence in terms and physical evidence that the code is the prosecutions contention. That color was in fact the murderer Let us as an opportunity to stop these messages with family down There's still more outdoor time to enjoy give the party going with favorites like coca cola. Doritos lay's lays incentives.

Family dollar, helping you do more now, despite Bobby, let cook and will be common and their best efforts to cast doubt keller when he testifies out their trial. You say doesn't do himself. Any good not what he wanted. He has to stick to his father

this time line and basic story. What is the verdict? The jury deliberates for a short period of time. Tell us about that burning was nobody, can always found guilty of murder and was sentenced to life in prison for the murder and additional twelve years for concealing under gruesome misdemeanor, then you blog convicted of the jury was how old later and they were. There was a long period of several appeals over the years and one of the lower nicely rockets being one of them said that he was a little uncertain until foxy Wilcox father took the span and has the bad definitively about the timeline engine power and to back him up, and he said he realized that the wilcoxes

We're certainly why and he said everything else fell into place and that boy it was keller, ended up going to prison for initially for a while. Yes, you talk about hey, he goes to prison and obviously will be coleman, as you save his outrage at his verdict and continues to want to appeal this sentence and conviction saw them. Our numerous appeals- and there are state appeals, when those are exhausted. It goes to federal appeals. Tell us what happens in the case of a judge. Owens judge jury will where I was. I he's richmond venison unless you it was a federal judge- make on georgia, which is always the areas though he was prevailed upon the defence

look at this case he thought he was involved fairly early but said that he could not get involved, as has been judge until I had run. The state of play of the appeal was especially for a new trial of no return verdict were ran the entire gamut of the state judicial system to the georgia supreme court, in which case he went to the federal system. Wilbur olin was outraged I did on the cause of the way the african, american or witnesses were interviewed and stated that he believed present the evidence when their when their testimony was excluded, that the evidence was insufficient to convict keller and so basically, an early.

Ninety ninety, ninety, ninety five, he led him out of jail. He led him or free him from the state prison system and said that unless new evidence was found that car was completely off the hook, he q under the he could not be retried because the double jeopardy caused it and does not allow for pit charges that same offence and it looked like a car with wonder and rejoin second wife and get on with its life. But d day chose to appeal the system, in the federal court system and owens owens ruling was overturned in color was sent back to jail at a brace of a period of our car, but one had much afraid. Therefore, while the case of actually went to the: u S, franco, your sprinkled did not good didn't do not think that it needs to be reviewed, and I confirm the opinion of the limits turkey court.

which is the federal district that we're in it's interesting? They affirmed the and overturn pardon me o a judge, owens a decision right right, I'm sorry, I didn't set it correctly that they did overturn the george orange decision to forgive and it was. There was a federal system that said wilcox vat, prison right, and then that over that overturning was affirmed. Then will right out of the language by you say was very interesting. Was the amount reversals when you looked and when they loved her when the thirties look, that owen has the most reversals of any federal judge? Well, you know this is. If I can get a personal note in here when I write when I write something like this, I don't think that I should be added to realize they dont think I should be given here, in my opinion, is an art. I want a lot to do that:

Joe friday, just the facts ma'am I want to present present the store as it happened and let the rear make his or her own decision. But in this case it was. It was a controversial decision to say the very least, to overturn his conviction. Deutsche sich decisions were controversial to to free keller, and at that time I just happened to notice in american bar journal. Mba journal american bar association journal that someone had looked at the rate at which federal judges had that ruling overturned and while the ones at the time was the winner, he had more really overturn than any other judge. He got very enraged at this anime, but that was the case, and this was simply another ruling which he was overturned. It was it wasn't. My research, it was earned, quote an article from the american mba, a trial by you talking about keller at trying for parole.

And being denied are, of course the hangs family is. Is obviously in opposition and he states that he claims his innocence throughout this parole process? How does A change when does that change? Tell us about him. Finally, getting poorer hee hee change, warriors api been in prison for awhile and in after he had served nearly twenty five years at the heart of the offer to represent him. The law firm one of the one of the attorneys at law firm, was actually the former attorney general, who had put him back in jail or put him back in prison by appealing.

It is his ruling to the eleventh circuit was the same. Individual is now the private practice, and he agrees to Tampa is Keller's case file and and get him out of the first yeah that they they tried to. They tried to get him released on merits, that is to say that the same arguments that had been rejected by my porch and when that didn't work, they tried simply to say what he should serve too long in prison. It has twenty five years, and so eventually that worked and he was freed and into the thousand, I believe has been has- has been presence and what I found was very, very interesting and, as you right as well, is that he denied tat he had committed there prime for so long, then this sea brings in a laugh rings and affirm allow for him to help him. and basically one of the criteria for parole always is that this recognition that you committed responsibility for two for the crime itself then, and some kind of genuine or a show of remorse. What with us

and enacted, should address that he was represented by MIKE Mike bowers and tom morgan to return it's first peel and in if he had. He had some time during this timeframe, written a letter to the parole board where he on will confess- and in this letter a handwritten letter and I'll copy the file? It says that he he regretted how quoted I want to acknowledge and accept responsibility, but enough of Ellen hikes on august, three one night, and certainly to quote, we got into an argument and I lost my temper. I did not mean to urge our work is not sexual song studies. He was not present mistakes, but it was very and the headline on the local paper when this was made public said was quote. Wilcox confessed question mark this confessions, where it was one where he took responsibility and admitted is culpability.

the scope and expressed his sorrow, but it didn't really match the fat, and so it was considered by many to be somewhat cynical document to getting around, but he was proud and has been since that prove tat. Yes, very, very interesting, you talk about My colleague carmen your epilogue. Only six dangerous deeper and its importance. Lemme get personal here and- and you know you- people say you- don't want your shirt. Why did you choose to write this book or why why this or that fallon discouraged them in nineteen? Eighty two- I was absolutely fascinated by this case and have him back. In the day I used to read the newspaper in the morning type office and severity of something fast. I did not tear it out drawer, but once a year I look at it and I realize at the end of the year I had a whole huge stack of clippings from atlas. This was in the night, computers a whole stack of clippings about the wilcox market.

I don't know, maybe put in writing a story. One thing it struck me is this: all of us in some way: shaper, warm lesser or greater, have a fear of something that we have done or something we're afraid that someone might find out about. It may be something minor. Perhaps when you were five years old, you stole the candy bar from the local convenience store in your mother said: don't you ever do that or it may be, that you're, an adult and you cheated on your spouse, but managed to get away to the group basil from your employer, but but he had. Everybody has something something somewhere that they're. Just Don't want made public. Can you imagine what it's like to be handsome wealthy married? Have everything you walk in at night when you turn out the lights and you're all alone by herself, in the fair you sit there and say: there's a bear and body. Are there any bit errors found Why

food and everything will go bad with issues the situation here, everyone's life was taking one direction, one trajectory a good bad, indifferent whatever, and then, when this this box was dug up, everything changed and the box had only been buried, six inches deep or none of this would happen, and we would be having this conversation. That's the fascinating thing about this book, while the lash them a one paragraph along karma, our emma yeah. I these also interesting and similar to me. He stories that the victim inadvertently help solve this case very much by that dress catching up into that padlock, and I am sure that some of that evidence was inadvertently. thrown into that grave site. Yet I want to thank you so much william rollings for six inches deeper,

the disappearance of Helen hanks. You have a website that people might want to take a look at more friendly need. You can remember my name, you can get it certainly baby. Don't we gave you that when you are wrong a l, l, I a m r, a w l, I n g s, william rawlings dot com, and it has my speaking engagements. It has review of my books, both fiction and non fiction. This book by the way was, I think, my tenth bookmark, while the twelfth twelve is just been released in Missouri look he's coming out next year. So I continued all right. Thank you. So much six inches deeper, the disappearance of Helen hanks. Thank you so much william rollings, you have a great evening, anger, nike, bridgestone tyres just rolled into might us and if the euro and we ve got an exclusive deal for you seventy dollars back and bridgestone rebates, plus a fifty dollar reward card with paid installation shot. Bridgestone tyres at midas dot com, the key little sisters. Happy do. Did you,

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