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you, are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about him, Gacy Bundy, Dahmer night Stalker did he kill every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking infamous killer into crime, history, murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan asking good evening. Stephen singular is the author of twenty five

fiction books, many of them about high profile criminal cases. His first book in nineteen eighty seven was talked to death, the life and murder of Alan Berg, which became the basis for the nineteen eighty. Nine Oliver Stone Film Talk Radio and set the tone for his journalistic career since one thousand nine hundred and ninety one Denver native Joyce Jock Singular, has partnered with Stephen on eight of the true crime books, the nineteen. Ninety five study of the Oj Simpson case legacy of deception, went beneath the media to stay hysteria surrounding these murders and explored the racial underpinnings of the case in their nineteen. Ninety nine book presumed guilty an investigation into the job in a Ramsay case, the media and the culture of pornography. They conducted a similar probe for the infamous child killing and bolder Colorado in two thousand.

Fifteen, the spiral note book, the Aurora Theatre, shooter and the epidemic of mass violence committed by american Youth and in two thousand and sixteen shadow on the mountain Nancy Fighter, Doktor Williams, Tyler and the murder of thousands golden girl. The singular have an intense interest in the psychological aspects of murder, which has shaped their work together. As forensic journalist, a number of their books are focused on the intersection of religion and violence, including their two thousand and six book unholy mental life and crimes of the BT case real killer and the Wichita divide, the murder of doktor, George Tiller and the battle over abortion. Also, the books include a killing in the family, sweet, evil and charm to death and

when you want me to be the story of the internet's first known. Serial killer was co, authored, with John Douglas and in two thousand and six, when men became become gods, Mormon, polygamous, worn, Jeff's, his cult of fear and the women who fought back. Stephen enjoys, are currently working on an apology about National turn international cult leaders to be published in the summer two thousand and twenty this evening. Steven and joy singular true crime retrospective welcome back to the program, and thank you so very much for this interview, choice and Stephen Singular

thank you for having yeah it's good to be back in? Thank you very much. Let's talk Stephen right away with what you were doing your your work. As a freelance journalist we mentioned, I mentioned the two: are the order of twenty five nonfiction books? Tell us about what happened. Are you are you came to be the author of talk to death gives us a circumstance doesnt, which you became involved well very quickly? I grew up in rural Kansas and I was very attached to the radio. It was the medium that I was most drawn to in a small town. You know you could hear, should I'll go in New Orleans, Kansas City, all that. So when I moved to Denver nineteen eighty one in September, I turn on the radio. I heard this man talking very fast and with his nasal voice, and he was too about Anti Semitism and racism in America, which

I had always been interested in, but he was highly provocative, his name was Alan Bergen, hi. I decided I had in I'll get to know who this was and may be right about him. I'd never really had any interest much in crime before but I met him, wrote about him for the Damn reposed Sunday magazine in June of nineteen eighty four he was gunned down. His driveway and when people thought at the time just and enraged listener and probably taken him out, but that launched a huge investigation across the United States, and I write after he was killed. I was asked by rolling stone. I knew the editor there to write about Burg and we were all assuming again wishes and individual. Let it killed him, but his things folded. It turned out that there was a group from the northwest called the order. A group of NEO Nazis kind of the grandfather

godfather to the White nationalist movements today They had committed two hundred and forty crimes. They had stolen about five million dollars, they had killed, for other people, besides Burg, and there cavities, also largest investigation into domestic terrorism in american history of that time. So it is I fell in my lap, I'd I'd known, burger bid. You know when he living and And then I was asked to write about this and then when it unfolded as this much much bigger story than just him. I thought I'd like to write a book this. So I proceeded from there dad? I it's it's really the story of a bird and the story of the people who killed him. Doing the work. I thought I really like this. I like me in court rooms. I, like watching lawyers, work seen how the criminal justice system works so wishes

launching pad for for doing this? You know ever sense right now. You said it set the tone for your journalistic career in what way in that very first book that you wrote to crime. But what were some of the things that you learnt and in retrospect now you could see were valuable and an did set course for the town and the direction of your true climatic were well one of the one things I learned, which is echoed through some of the other books is, that When you, when people spew, I had hateful rhetoric racist rhetoric, things of that nature They may not be the one who's actually involved in the crime, but they that information hits other people. Some of those people may not be very stable emotional motionless

are mentally, and that filters that out- and it has very significant consequence- The main issue didn't prominent, nor culture in the last few years in London that when people do these things and then one bad. You know bad things happen or people get killed, they often say. Well, I had nothing. We do with that. Irish is exercising free speech bud. Occurs in the bird in the bird murder and then, twenty! Five years later, when doktor killer is killed, bicycle by sky rotor in Wichita Kansas, you see the same dynamics and play bill really was going on. Bill really was going on Fox NEWS, nine after nine thing, tiller the baby killers and securing a lot of him. Amatory rhetoric, Somebody shows up and actually takes the action. So this this dynamic, you know with something that identified early on, and I think it

I became an important theme in a number of the books. I certainly now what is the next book with according to what I've seen as that a killing in the family is the next book. If I'm not correct, tell me which a book is is next on a number of Nigeria and Joyce. By that time you have joint. As co author, with this book, no actually, that book was just about like a book, had already come out very interesting story about her, a man in California. Is it the coerced and really persuaded his young step daughter to kill his wife and that was a maid made into a television movie, and but what, when I met Steve that was just coming out on television and Steve had given me a copy of talk today than we discussed his book. I was very interested I've. I've been interested in true cried before I met Steve, I would read like the killer beside

me and we both shared an interesting in cold blood by Truman Cooper so we had a lot in common. We like do. You know we're very fascinated by this, like the psychological elements, what drives people Somebody did appear so seemingly normal commit these types of acts that that's really what you know. We were both interested in not the sensational listing of Gore factor, and so when killing and family came you know we watched on television. It was very well done and then what happened was we were by that time living together in Denver and there was a trial going on in Colorado Springs, which is just south of Denver. And there was a young woman name.

If a reality who this is one of those books were in religion, intersected with violence, basically long story short, she was married with a couple of young children. She got involved with a man named Brian heard, who also had I think three young children. They started an affair. He told her that it would be ok. He was not very bold, enlightened, even Jellicoe Christianity, and he told her. He persuaded her. This is a woman and had never even had a parking ticket. Very smart, intelligent woman, very nice right to kill his wife. She gun down his wife in dressed up in her are husbands, army, fatigues and Anne, and he told us that it would be ok that God would forgive her ear. He wouldn't forgive adultery body would forgive

This murder motorists act as she just unrepented. So what happened? Was I started going down to the trials with Steve the murder trials and the insanity hearings, and when I noticed what happened was that it happened restricted by accident? I noticed things had city wasn't noticing, because in I was sort of like two genders are better than one, and I would tell him things about what the defendant was wearing. Two companies to appear more precise in innocent Looking and I would tell Steve things that I had overheard in the women's restroom say where people were talking about, so we found that you know the carbon You sure of my observations and Steve's observations. You now started producing up like a wider perspective of what was going on in one particular case, I am, and- and women were very interested in that case because as joy said, this was that, like the

women next door, you know never cause trouble, never did anything bad. You know did. She evolve from that, and a cold Keller, so there were lots and lots of women at the legal proceedings enjoys in August. Famine that the a dimension to the book and later on, we this in one of the rare instances, we were actually able to interview the subject of one of the books. We years later after that book had come out, we would contact by a man who was in a ministry down and KEN city Colorado, where Jennifer was then imprisoned in the women's prison, and he told us that she wanted some copies of the book to send to her children, because her husband, had told her children that she had died in a house fire and then when the child, got old enough. They started when on the internet, and they saw that she would hadn't.

I didn't a fire. So what happened was we? We went down to the prison and visited her. And that was really a unique experience for us to actually sit across from someone in her she had by shipping because life without for all that she got so she had no chance of getting out and and she wanted to eventually write her own book, and so we were able to kind of really ask her about You know why: how could you have done something like this? very bright woman, I mean someone that you would have wanted to be your friend, so personable charming. You know everything. You would want a friend and I remember looking her hands in prison, and you think you both his hands. It actually picked up a gun and gun down another human being in cold blood. I very surreal experience, but we found that when we tried getting to the moment of committing them the crew,

I'm that she was sort of in denial about it. It was kind of like the devil made me. Do it type of risk and when we knew then that we couldn't, we couldn't go any further with her. She couldn't process it in a normal fashion. No it was, but it was very interesting. Situation really because she still was seemingly a very nice person, so I'll bring you back to sir. The core question around all true crime: you know what is in nature evil I mean. How does it work? How does it work inside of a person? You know it's just there during the moment and then you know go away so with it was fascinating story. Let's talk about sweet evil. What was on the on the surface it dreams like somewhat of a routine or somewhat routine murder story. Tell us something about swede evil that is sweet naval book.

I mean that the Buddha story Jennifer Reality is: is that that story in the core question again at the centre of it is, is basically psychological. You know a psychological study of this person who came from a very good family He met her parents, wonderful people, all the opportunities in the world, and you know just just the accumulation, a bad decision. The man you see this allowed in true crime. You know where this man comes along and starts thirsty term and and he's a master manipulator getting her to do. One thing is small I'll, go, get your husband's clothes and charmed me, you know. Does your house We have a gun, you know, could you could use that to me any and if he was a salesman- and he just in one of the sales techniques- is to get people to say yes or no,

yes and then finally, you close the deal and that's exactly what he did with her. So her the character, steady of her at the centre of this was was what sort of created the mystery I mean, you know what happened, but you were everybody was groping further. Why, of course, people liked her, but he had done this favourable thing and if I may say one thing, the title: sweet evil do the what the reason steep called it. That was because that was her quote. She said it Brian heard had Sweden the evil and and then also that was when I started- noticing the really paying attention to the collateral damage, but these killers due to families to their extended families, to their friends the ripple effect of an act like this for their children. You know children just its unfathomable. What an like that can do as far as mass damage Brian heard, no wonder tat

under this had three young children and so He gets Jennifer again down his wife and then he gives convicted with a thirty year prison sentence, something like that: and his parents sure and their six. These then you know inherit these three young kids and have to raise them again. It's just the tendering come out from a tragedy like this were very moving. You talk about collateral damage, ripple effect, mass damage, one of the and credible true crime. Classics that you have written together is legacy of deception. Investigation of marked vermin and racism in the alpine LAPD tell us a little bit about legacy of deception and really what this story was about. When you looked into investigated, Mark Froman well I'll, try to

condensers before very long, complicated story. But again it builds on the first book the bird talk to death, which were at which came out and nineteen eighty seven, but in nineteen eighty five and six I had interviewed a number, people about far right groups. Many of them in the end the Far West NEO Nazis, you know, fellow travellers in the realm, and I got to know people in law enforcement who were investigating those types of folks. And so some of those were in southern California. There was a very strong group down there called a r m anyway, this in case in June of ninety ninety four ten years, almost to the day after the bird killing and about seven weeks went by and we got a call here from somebody and law enforcement in southern California, whom I had known because of that experience and basically said,

would you like to know more about this case and get involved in it and I was like no ten thousand people writing about this all we had. No, I we had no intention of working on that. I really lived in Denver. You know and we were watching what everybody else is watching, which is the guy going down the freeway who looks like he's going to kill himself and he looks very very guilty. We do so at ninety million. Other people saw and then there was a little persuasion. On this, Britain Vanden said I will give you four pieces of information. This inside they always legal system that people don't and if you really like to know more and not about just this case, but maybe about Are you function as a journalist? Maybe about your society, functions, how your media functions etc?

you might have a very educational experience if you were willing to sort get off the sidelines in and get involved, and I never did anything like this. Before sir, I very hesitant, we were given four pieces of information and managed to convey them to the defence to sixty days after getting the information, I would sitting in four May office of Robert Shapiro, who was we'd lawyer, the time before Johnny Cock right over with the private in the head private investigator, for there are ten and a couple of lawyers and again try to condemn this as much as possible, but the

He said that the forum pieces of information were all wrong, which I did not expect, because I was there basically trying to give them information that would help their cause as time unfolded. Everything we were told turned out to be true. People can verify this through the trial. The most important piece of information by far was that was at the blood that was connect that was collected from the two crime seems ah was came out of. The blood was drawn from Simpson after he returned from Chicago enduring third the day after the crime complicated. But what it means is, when I went to suspect is taken into custody. Their blood is drawn is placed in a tube. The tube contains a chemical called e t aid So if you were to test that blood later on and it had Edi T piano,

he's a preservative. That would tell you that it did not come out of the defendant on the night of the crime, but it came out from this test tube That means, without any doubt, that evidence was planted and and that that throws the whole trial and everything else into confusion. Astonishingly enough, I wrote a book proposal about this in November of ninety ninety four, which is three months before the trial began. And it was released various major the early times in our times all neglected it. It paid no attention to it swallowed the party line. Again,

We were to follow all of this closely. It came out during the trial in April and May of ninety five when Simpson was easily acquitted of the charges in October of ninety five. Some of the jurors talked about this evidence and some other things it that I have given it a defence. So it's the completely untold story behind the Oj Simpson case. If people would read the book, it's called legacy of deception is available on Kendall. I think they would learn some things about this case. If they don't know, and from a personal point of view, is a profound education and now how we view these things. On the via the media, and how would you go below the surface? It can be an entirely different story. Certainly certainly tell us Joyce about the book China to death in Andalusia,

Ok. Well, that was also that one was made into a box television movie very interesting story about a woman who allegedly had killed more than one of her husbands, but was convicted of for sure killing this one in steamboat springs cholera. Which is a risky town than they were in the mountains west of us and what happened was She was very manipulative, very charming. She were moved into this little ski town and charmed away with this local he'll hard. Restore and was a jury bugs eurobonds and them. And then she ended up having an affair with another man and the two of them conspired to kill him

and I covered that trial. This. It was interesting because at that time this is when we really split often start having to work together for the family business. It was really born the sea was working on the legacy of deception book and I had to go up to the mountains to cover that murder trial, and then you know all put put all the notes together that you get an informal narrative. You know from all the evidence and above those back and then Steve Wolves men to the story arm and her own son, one of her own son from another marriage ended up testifying against her in court and in that helped convict her. So now she is in prison for life. Yeah I was. I was also able to get in the jail Steamboat, not long after she was arrested and she use these this she was married about twelve times. The number was a little bit on

several of the husbands in our turned up dead, and so she was known as the black widow killer. But again she was maybe the obsolete, Jennifer reality. Who is this my sweet person? This was totally manipulative women, and you could just tell within five minutes that she was capable of all kinds of things he tried to charm, you didn't she. She tried to tell me that I was alive you know she be out of there in a couple of weeks, and then she tell me the real story- and you know where I can see she'd been wrong, so it was coming face to face with a real sector in this particular situation. So you know one of the interesting things that sort of balances forward from this is that if we were talking about three women involved in murder. So far, one one was the daughter of the man

in southern California. I'm gonna killing him Emily. The other was in Jennifer Reality in Colorado springs, and now we have your court and seen both springs, and so this this plays a little bit forward with the Ramsay case. Were Patsy Ramsay will be accused by untold numbers of people of killing her daughter, but we have this prior experience, so it I think it plays into their view. You talk about the that. There's this the only book to suggest something other than the to conventional scenarios. One of the rams he's killed the child our intruder, did it tell us more about presumed guilty and the investigation that you undertook for this book. Well, we again Joyce has been sorted though wonder proud man certain instances which has been

the and because on January First nineteen, eighty seven she was watching CNN as the first big Ramsay and our view of the parents a case, and she said you know you live in Denver, so boulders about thirty minutes away and she You don't. We should look into this and am that part of the reason why I said that was because we had a young sign at the time was a few years younger than Germany and at the time it was it was. It was terrified to think that just thirty miles away from you, there could be a killer on the loose somebody that was brave enough to break into your home and kill your child and then leave your child with a ransom. No in your basement, so courtesy as a new mother is a young mother, younger younger youngish. I said this is a story that we need to look into right now and

time. Steve has been resistant, oh yeah, when there began ten thousand other people covering at its June light. Well, maybe not but we we went to the fore. Major press conference on the case, which was in early January of ninety seven We met every porter, therefore local television station in Denver, and she said, there's something I want to show you. You should come to my face in the following night, and we did and we went into a back room, and now this is really one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven. The internet publicly is abuse just a couple of years old and there was a hacker there and he started showing us what was available online in terms of child pornography and very very graphic stuff being damaged.

Yet young girls that work were bound and gagged. Much like Germany had been found with with their hands tied sort of in bondage type of positions. By far the closest thing visually to what the crime to what the crime actually look like. So number one. You know that was very a startling in and fell, but you suddenly revisers this whole other criminal realm its being born now, with the internet. I mean child born was about the hardest thing too move around in, there was now it's bouncing all over the world before the dark web. We didn't know it had way out for law enforcement, really understood what was going on so, and it was a business I mean people were selling things in my room

buying things and they retraining piles of their own. That all that's why I remember the hacker typed in. Does anyone have any pictures of Germany and therewith like a feeding frenzy like sharks at the reef? In all these two hits started a man like you? Do you have any dead or alive and the people the few other people? Besides us, it was standing in the room. We were just we. We were just astonished. Set again, if there's a theme here and certainly turn the Simpson case, I think it's true and some of the other books. You know you had this media crush sang you I'm dead? It dad. Did it maybe the nine year old kid did it Her elder Rivera tries the parents on television and marked round my item guilty, and it's just you know first buddy with any serious interest in journalism crime it wished. A lot of noise. You know, and you want to go behind that noise and say, as is there anything else, there

but also not oh, just a lot of noise and the local yeah, the local talking. The radio hosts we're talking about it in such a way that you could have been easily influencing a jury, pull em out and if you examine the three prior women morphine else who committed these murders. You start to investigate. You start looking and you see this pattern that leads up to violence- I mean you can Charta, you can look at it if you're, you know a reporter. Who does this sort of thing so nobody has been investigated more deeply than Patsy roundly by the Boulder Police Department, who also thought she was guilty. I mean they're video tapes of this at you can watch all that there is absolutely no pattern of any sort of behaviour, bad behaviour on her part. There was never

one person who came forward with an anecdote about violence against your daughter? Anything like that, not a bruise, not Amar, so your use, pull back and say well, Linda, maybe we're looking at something we begin interviewing pageant mothers in the area have your mother's. It had been in the same content and New Patsy Ramsay that new other people in that circle anyone edit this at this point, we noticed since now our interview in people, together before it was just Steve as the loan male journalist interviewing people. But then, when we started interviewing people together, especially women and the women and the pageant world in Germany's circle, they were pretty freaked out about this, as you can well imagine, so we ve what we found and wait. What we noted was that we had now we're a couple with a young child interviewing people enter and that sort of open door ways people were not is,

suspicious or aren't there. Their guard was off a little bit so that that's where we started noticing Working together is a male and female. As a couple really start started, gaining entre into some of these in interviewing situation am I am what all the pageant mothers told us. The person was dead following the murder, they had been receiving these midnight phone calls from javanese primary pageant photographer impersonal. Tell your for Randy Simons and he was hysterical. He was crying and screaming, I did not kill Germany, I didn't kill John Benign, and this wasn't something that other people, we're looking into so asked after about a hundred days when there was an arrest, is the media kept saying there would be? I went over

and gave some information to the district attorney Alexandre in that case is very open to receive at which was surprising. He didn't know, Randy Simons words I mean here. You have her photographer freaking out and police, were so fixated on the two parents, if they weren't conducting a broader investigation, and we told him about the internet activities in the images there and he was very interested in said. Basically, if you would go look into this and report back to me, that would be in good thing. I mean us just now what you expect a district attorney to say in such a high profile crime and was of course illegal to go very. Far down the road of looking to child pornography, so that didn't happen, but it was the doorway into the case, and so when we look at all of this and basically said

Neither of the two scenarios really seems to make any sense the media framed it. As you know the either the Randy? You did this and earn complete. Go your an intruder, did it and are completely innocent, but what about all that space in between I mean lawn I haven't been able to solve. This doesn't make any sense to forensic people, so the book they came out presumed guilty. The ninety ninety nine essentially said there is a third scenario here where the Ramses could be guilty of something, but maybe it's not murder, and maybe this is a far more complicated situation. Then it's really being banned presented has over almost the last three years the grand jury looked at all the evidence for thirteen months nineteen. Ninety eight ninety nine and they came to some conclusions, but, curiously enough, this disregard

many Alex Hunter not only refuse to pursue what they did bud seal the documents forever. And seemingly forever. So we had a grand jury sit for thirteen months, which is very long. Time, because several million dollars to do this sort of thing and then the public has told you don't get to see their findings, the set a whole lot of other questions primary by being why why don't we get to know so anyway flash fourteen years. Twenty thirteen, the bolder Paper sued the district attorney's office to find out what was in those documents and the document said count for of the of the and die The grand jury is actually decided to indict therein.

Please, but not on murder count for said they expose their daughter to the individual that committed this crime and count. Seven said, then they subsequently were involved in the cover up of the crime. So there has only been one book written and the many books at a written about the tragic case. It said, there's a middle ground between total innocence and total guilt, and that is precisely what the grand jury concluded. We could talk for hours about why the boulder legal system did not pursue these charges when when they had the opportunity to do that. In brief, I would suggest that it because they did not one what occurred in this crime to come out because it would have been, I believe, very bad for boulders reputation and perhaps her its legal system

so again, if you want to go below the surface of some of these major crimes. That book is called for guilty and it does not toe the party line in any sense. At all. Let's talk about unholy messenger, the life and crimes of the BT serial killer. There again, through five classic and also one of the most important cases, also most fascinating cases, captivated the world's audience. Tell us about unholy messenger. For to large scale you got started again, verification, cancers in a very small town and spring. We used to go out there with our sun after school, without him, and so in the spring of two thousand and five June may We who drove out there- and I took my son

I was twelve years old, I think, to the German. There was a mile basketball coach was there and he said you have to write about this Bt K case and I was I just think that people are doing man. He said now, I'm serious. Cell phone on any doubt, numbering handed me the phone and he said here talk. My son in LAW, Dan and his son in law he's on the task force that investigated Bt K for the year between when he came out of hiding in February and March, two thousand and four, and when he was arrested on February twenty fifth two thousand and five. So here is a guy who is on the ground and all the meetings. All of the investigation and was actually one of the people who arrested Btk Bt K, so I took and then the next day I was in front of him and there was a Kapital

You know inside track on how the investigation unfolded and what went on and on the dynamics around, so it was. It was a great perspective on the situation. I also met the pastor of Bt Case Church Lutheran church is his name past your Michael Clark and he and writer Dennis Raider Bt K were very very close Dennis Raider Voice the president of his church, while carrying out some of these crimes or plodding some. And again it wishes to readjust the fabulous just position of here's law enforcement and what they went through and here's this meant who is a very, very decent and good man trying to come to terms with the fact that his president is the moon

notorious sherry serial killer in the history of the whole region. So I was fortunate to have those connections. Can I think it makes it much more intimate book, and because you grew up in a town. Very similar to were were raider grew up in a kind of have that that you know that sense of what the repression was light growing up that time yeah. I grew up in a town that nine hundred people, then danish raider lived in a town of similar size, just north of Wichita. Thirty years for at least when the investigation was active. All of the profiling was around buddy and which time urban person, somebody who would you know, could not be normal cause. They couldn't possibly fit into the community. That was the whole basis of their looking for beauty,

that's why they couldn't find him, because he was living in the small town working for city government, very normal husband and father with two kids, then another his church and fitting imperfectly? So it it's it's in some ways, if the most fascinating of the serial killers are we actually read about because it would seem to me to just to be totally psychologically driven. In other words, he was here but he wasn't doing anything for money or anything like that. He just said this enormous repression inside of himself sexual repression, creative rights, russian artistic repression, the kind of thing I grew up around understood very well, and it will just would come out in the most

heinous ways imaginable? So I thought it was a great way to do a psychological study of a serial killer end and that particular stories. Bt K, we went to Wichita this last fall and were established. The camera. I was a consultant force, a CNN programme. That's going to be on, I believe, maybe in May of this year or so it was. You know when you're writing nonfiction. It takes Little bit of luck, I think, to get to the right people, we ve been fortunate enough to do that. Numerous.

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caliber. So sure you'll love the product, they even offer a thirty day money back, guarantee, that's try, caliber, dot, com, slash murder, don't forget promo code murder for twenty percent off your first order. Now we spoke about beefy k being one of the most profound and fascinating subjects that you dealt with in the in Europe through crime writing career. Up to that point, tell us about the making of any one you want me to be where you teamed up with The FBI, Legend John Douglas and well, I saw a little article. I was reading this paper. I have always been a new town, so I was written in the Denver post. Wendy

I saw a small little article, not not very big, just sit tight telling about how these bodies had been found in these big fifty five with fifty five gallons. Eighty four eighty five gallon barrel in a part of eastern Rural Kansas, and you know so. We contacted Steve's and lived very close to that part of the state, and she had also been keeping clippings about it in saving information, about it, so we drove out there and we decided that this would be our next book. He was John John Robinson John G Robinson was thought to be the first known internet serial killer. Very unusual and again this was you know in the early days of the internet not a lot known this

He was a very interesting fellow in that this very charismatic, charming, add these Dore Life's Goin on where he was a business We successful businessmen in its own right and one on one side and on the other, he had this secret life going on where he was into bondage in Essen, our men, he started Loreen women out to Eastern Kansas on the pier the text of giving them offering them jobs- and one is a fascinating things about this particular fellow- is that the the variety of different women that he attracted from like a young college. Gossip girl to the most conservative prison live

Marion all different ages and put this, and there was also another thing about him that it just did. We just make your jaw drop, he posed as a as a businessman that was trying to help young unwed women. So what he did was he got this one young woman who is pregnant, had a child and he was going to offer her. You know a job doing some kind of business work at you know it administrative assistant type of thing. What happened was he she went missing. He took her baby. He sold the baby to his brother and said that it was this child that had come up from her for adoption and then the boy his brother raised this young woman at his own daughter added an unheard of the maiden and he didn't avenue be about any of fifteen years later Robinson started out as a.

Criminal in stamps feeling a little bit of money forgery. You know very simple basic stuff, but then he started killing and his joy said he was first known person, who is already a serial killer throughout the Ladys. Early ninetys and then just transition those skills or to the internet, so his hunting ground, which had been you know around Kansas City, suddenly expanded, the world wide web and is pulling away from Kentucky and Indiana and taxes on alcohol, Laredo in Texas number of them ended up dead and they ended up in the barrels that Joyce alluded to show there was a fascinating thing, have sorted watching? How technology and evolve I mean he He was initially using like fake stuff on the Xerox machine. When that came out and then

you know when the technology got a lot more sophisticated like with the internet, then he started using. There was a real cautionary tale in that he will look. Read these women with ostensibly a better life, or to be their lover or to offer them some sort of job traveling the world. So it was like it was. If something appears to be too good to be true, it probably is, but in this instance it got these women killed yeah and again he was posing and a living in the suburbs act, the church CUB Scout ACT, no social activities, and all that. So you know it's the if the before next door syndrome. Again Went to New York to em could be on twenty twenty, that their news programme about this particular case.

Last October, the air so trusting you mentioned that you don't shy away from controversial, subject matters, and so some of these books just the tone of them. Let's talk about the which not divide the murderers, Doktor George Tiller and battle over abortion again do not shying away from controversial. Subject matters with this book no again The things you pick up here is it from Kansas, gathers FED. You know some very notorious crimes biggest being in cold blood, with Dick Hickok and Perry Smith capacities book about it so we have the the John Robinson case, which is inspiring Kansas City, the BT cases in which, time and again, doctor George Teller, who is a nation's best known abortion, doctor

I was gunned down in his church, his Luther and church on May thirty. First of two thousand and nine again, I was guide, had now have contacts in law enforcement in which derive from the Bt K case, and I would again contacted and basically gives an inside track again on this particular case. This echoes back If we go back here to the Alan Burn case, which I would We talked about earlier because in this particular case you had, I believe I mentioned earlier. I mean you have rightly now talking a three point: five million people a night on fire. News and hammering away a doctor tiller again and again tell them maybe killer. All of that I mean so there's his actual progression.

Where I started writing a new. Had a few people in the North West word would spouting this Anti semitic, racist stuff that end Death- and now you have somebody addressing there- are millions of people, and putting out what I think is a very dangerous message, because in both cases the person who killed bird with name Bruce Pearson, he was emotional, unstable, twenty five years later: Scott Roeder from serving Kansas City is had had up and increasing problems with mental health, and things like this. He he becomes as a somewhat as a result of that he becomes very any government very aunt abortion. He joins that movement, very well aware of all this noise and him this coming from the media. He decides to pick up a gun and act on it So again, I think a cautionary

tail here. Is it worth matter, emotions matter your involvement matters, how you participated in the media matters. There are consequences for these things, especially when they hit and at risk. Population as they do over and over again. Yet we will yet again in Charlottesville Open when a woman give run by somebody with mental problems again this round some of these inflammatory ideas, so this theme keep surfacing again and again on our culture, but I wrote about doktor killers, life I wrote about Scott Rotors life and how they know they collided it sort of carbon. Divide which tore divine, because our country is so divided over this and basically the story of these two families and how they collide in advance and tragedy. So again I think it's it's a comprehensive look. It sort of the dynamics around

the abortion issue and What can come from inflammatory rhetoric in this book is then just recently been option for a movie. Let's talk about again and religion intersects with everything in this particular, story, when men become God, ok, woman, Longeth yeah. Well, what happened with that? One was, I was watching Steve on. He was on Anderson Cooper, three sixty who is doing a one hour programme on the Bt K serial killer, so I'm in Denver watching it stays in New York,

on CNN and at the end, and they kept during these promos than at the end of the programme they had. You know we're gonna be talking about Warren Jeff sues. You know this polygamous leader in southern Utah, the border view Time Arizona and I think was he on the FBI's Teghmus Wifeless issues, bro of two thousand and six, and whose just about to go on there I got him so it was a big story and it has been brought to light about polygamy and in this country. A few years recent earlier with HBO Programme, big love, which I received you watch the to the www fascinated, but that was a lot different than the polygamous that we began researching. Big love was this semi fictional story that took place in suburban salt Lake, city with one man had had three wives and it was all very sanitized, but when,

need we drew. I went sticky back from New York. I said you know all this, I worry about worn jobs. I think women would be really interested in this story than women sort of drive the market in stories like this and in true crime and especially when they kept showing the women in these laws. The prairie type of dresses with the prairie hairstyle, but on cell phones with modern technology. I said he. I just have a feeling that women are going to be very interested in this story. So Stevens resistant me said has already been a book written about am, I think it was under the banner of Heaven by John Cracker, but that only went up to the end of ruin, just who was warned of father and blood atonement and other issues within the immunity, so I said now, you know let's just drive on there and drive to Colorado City. You talk and see. What's

went on where we didn't really have. We didn't have any contacts we just had heard about certain people that had spoken out including a woman Amy Lane Tyler, who ran an organization called the Hope Organization that helped women in that community in the polygamous community, escape if they wanted to get out of that lifestyle so armed with just that one name: we through our twelve year old son in the back of the car and drove down in its long dry. It must have been at thirteen or fourteen our drive to drive down there. So what happened is we went to allowing Tyler and she was building calls from all over the world, because now the story is gone. Global and people are intensely interested in the shops. You know: how could these communities be kind of operating under the radar on these very isolated it parts of? U S, and also Canada. There were branches of them in Canada to an

so we went to her. She was kind enough to listen to the meeting with us in an she gave us, the aim of a person in Colorado, see you tie alarm and by the name of Gary Angles, but she said she cautioned us before we drove into town She said now when you go into this town and I think it was a community of about one. Ten thousand team, the yoke it she said- really mind your piece and cues stop at every stop sign, don't do anything trafficking infraction whatsoever, because all the other police and that community work for war in June after all part of that of the community. So they then they do not like outsiders. So we we went into town and visited, very beautiful, isolated par the country about a hundred miles from the Grand Canyon, very, very secluded. Let me looks like you're going back into biblical times or something

and we drove around and the people will you could tell you we were being watched. People would look out the windows at you through the slats of their blinds in it was a very strong, feeling been in the in our own country. But the kind of thing that you, We're not welcome in a certain area. We couldn't believe that this is happening within our country, so we went to Gary Angles office and he had. Little, it was like a double wide trailer on the outskirts of town and dumb. He offered to give us a ride through the town to show us round. You have to understand Fifty years law enforcement had totally left this town alone they're going to raid earlier, one thousand nine hundred and fifty three and it had gone sideways for the government and they said we're just going to let these I'll do whatever they want. They want to fifty wise and a hundred children that's up to them for. Finally, after fifty years, women in the community

There were so outraged at what was happening, that a few of them broke off and sit, went to the governor governed. Or a government loafers, had you have to enforce laws here against ancestor under age: marriage, polygamy, taking girls across state lines for sexual purposes, all of those things so they sampling. Man Jerry this one man to go investigative and he was obviously the most hated person in the community, so courage. So anyway, we we got in his ass, you ve and he was given as the tour around town, and it was amazing because the houses of the lived in art worthy huge compounds, surrounded by giant concrete walls, because there there could be forty, seven children in one family. It was beyond belief. So weird,

I've been in immediately, we start getting followed by everything was about three vehicles with tinted windows you and Israel. We now worn some attention, under our hour after hour. So we're a little nervous, I'm I'm sitting in the back seat with my son. You know and sees in the front seat, so he starts driving a faster and faster pretty soon. He does. This maneuver where he turned round and then work, and then we are now following the the henchmen, and We ve it and you have to understand the climate was very were intense because at the time we No, nobody really knew if they had stockpiled weapons there. There have been some talk, Rumours are not just idle. Rumors people law enforcement thought that maybe they had stockpiled weapons on the outskirts of town and they they didn't want another Waco type of situation to occur.

You know where the David Crash Compound was surrounded by the FBI. There's a shoot out. A lot of people got killed so that the climate and that community was with tense, to say the least. Shall we begin talking with women who broken away from this was a very difficult thing to do. Very courageous, on their part, am in the subtitle of the book is alone fundamentalist. Warren just in the women who fight back an and part of the book is their story about their struggle to get law enforcement. To actually do something against yes, I mean he had come in. He had broken up family feuds. The fathers away redistributed the children to people that he man that he liked better killed. All the dog dogs led decided who could get married and who couldn't was again taking these girls over this

line as a violation of federal violation of manner and Marion, very young girls, very old men right so anyway, that that was the basis of the book, which was a man hunt for jobs he was cod right outside LAS Vegas in late August, nineteen of two thousand and six, he went on trial in two thousand and seven he was convicted in Utah backwards to rape. Very, very courageous. Young woman named illicit wall came forward and said that he had forced her in marriage. This was the first person I was really willing to take the stand. Go against her family, go against her community, her religion and take the stand to actually convict Jeff's. He was that conviction. Would subsequently be overturned by some more remember

early April. Two thousand and eight the Texas authorities raided his knee who compound down in Texas and near elder. Their taxes and created justice, phenomenal entered and hurried down there. Four hundred and sixty three children taken off the ranch and separated from their families very reminiscent of the rate of fifty three, I guess the community. They were sent to foster homes in Romania, that type of and so just had built this temple on this land, this ranch and they raided the temple and found during in evidence against him of what appeared to be. American girls about me, eleven twelve, so you actually visual evidence. Now, some of the things

There were going on inside of this community again, all in the name of religion how they interpreted their religion, so he ultimately be tried in taxes and given a life sons, but just tell him what happened when the book came out. Well, when the book came out, I asked the publisher, publishing House, Saint Mines, press in New York to send a copy to then send a majority leader Harry Red. He was say converted Mormon, but he had been watching this story closely, as everybody else was, and you know, you'll pay particular just because he was not. He was not a fundamentalist latter day saints. He was a latter day, saints which you know he was the more the typical mormon religion. So all this is going on and I they sent a book to

senator red and stay with down and Eldorado Texas, covering in what was going on with that raid and all the sun. Well, I got a email saying, please call this number than it was a number in Washington DC. So I call them up, and I said I I got a message to call This number- I didn't know who was in and the woman said, but can you please hold the line senator? We would like to talk to you so then come

send a majority later on the phone, and I was I was stunned. I mean it's not every day that you talk to. You know the third most powerful man in the american government and the I said he said. I said what he said this. What I can't oh, I know he started making jokes about our name singular. He said singular. That sounds like the medicine that I take for my allergies or something of that took me by surprise, because he was just kind of talking to me in this very in off handed fashion, and I said well or what did you think of the book and he said well, I thought it read like fiction. I like I was. I couldn't believe that you know I've already.

Sales and there he said I'd like to speak to your husband about this. So I gave him Steve cell phone number down and in what he wasn't Texas and the next thing you know we were invited to Washington to appear in front of the Senate. Judiciary committee, on hearings associated, I think, was polygamy crimes against dumb crimes, assertion awkward right show the federal government over a period of time has gotten involved, Jeff's serving a life sentence in Texas that his stranglehold over that community, which was very real when we first started to look into this in two thousand and six has broken down a lot of people can on their own homes, which they couldn't do before was a Camille trust they can on their own business. They have a lot more freedom, all the structures he put on them. Have. More or less gone away, and his reign of

there is basically ended, so it that there are still problems there and he still has control over certain people, but there are actually has been a lot of progress and I think it all goes back to those handful of women. You know who stood up when they needed to. I mean it's almost like a precursor to the meat to movement and Ngos. Said no more when I gonna take it anymore and forest law enforcement to enforce the law is down there and that's a very good thing, and that was a now and was made into a lifetime movie called outlaw profit, which was the name of wit. That's what we I wanted to name the book outlaw profit Georgiana again, it's another example: help about people use religion too. Maintain power over other people who commit crimes and naturally that ran through the our book and the bird book Andy three, the evil book, and

spoke as well. Let's talk about something when you talk about reign of terror, let's up about the spiral note book in what did you see? What did you find as authors that other people seemingly didn't see or conclude, well, we have go ahead. Well, as you know, as an author of these kinds of books, What you do essentially is now there's a crime. Usually arrest and There are many many court documents that are generated from that process an you usually have access to those documents, you no evidence depositions testimony and then their court proceedings. Preliminary hearings and trials and all that and you that's the rest of Europe,

mill? That's what you sort of used to create a narrative that again, like ten of read. You hope that somebody will say this reads like like fixed like a story, that's really rolling out smoothly and that's what occurred in every book. The we talked about so far when James harms the Aurora Theatre. Shooter did what he did on the early morning of June July, twentieth, twenty twelve in suburban earn. These did right, just thesis Denver, immediately. There was a permanent, almost permanent, gag order put on all documents around this. So again it was Joyce Joyce. Tell him sort of how we got involved were again. Once again, I was watching television is the thing was unfolding, I'm whose hound and about seven miles from where we are even Steve was

rapporteur for the Denver Post, I have been a news had all my life, and so as this was happening and Saturday morning, further, was a farmer yeah yeah I am, and our sun was now in college first year in college and he was home on summer break. He was sleeping in the basement and I You can see why I said you know this is the theatre that we used to go to on occasion in our could have been us. Of course, I probably would have been going to watch. You know that, night rises at midnight showing, but it could have been us if it didn't have that person had decided to kill a bunch of people in some other movie.

And in so I said, what are we to strive over too will actually James homes. Apartment was not too far from us may be several miles so bad that time, the the police had these robots outside trying to figure out if there were any more explosive in his apartment, and indeed there there were any were trying to see if they could go in without setting them off so well. We got we drove up to where James HOMES Apartment was, and we started talking to people that, worse than they had all been evacuated, even the apartment buildings in just to the to the north and the south, and the different direction of of homes apartment building, and they were they were just in shock. They couldn't believe that this is happening so close to them at you. We don't you mad. You hear about these things happen

and in other places, but you never. You can never quite sad in it when it comes to year community, so we started talking to them getting their impressions. Then we would drove over to the actual theater and it was all cordoned off you. The media to be in a certain area, so we went up to where the media were and they had just let out the people that had been in the theatre, the survivors and they had put all those people in an a nearby school. So they could interview them in get their reports and their tat. You know their statements about what they had seen and heard, and so all these young, people were filling filing out and some of them came over to where the media was, and we started talking to a young man. He had his ticket stab in his hand. He was shaking, he had been up all night, very, very upset, and we start

I take it. You know just taking notes and we knew that it was a big story. There's no media from all over the country in overcoming this is a huge abet. So, but but what happened? Was we usually get our information from in a trial trial? Testimony in documents things like that? But there was a gag order put on seeking new talks, I could get some water do so so we were presented with an unusual set of circumstances in wanting to maybe right about that, but not having access to the normal things. Are you that you would and then then added ingredients is this. In the courses conversation, we talked about our sun being very young woman. When the Rams case emerged? We talked about him, twelve years old when I went to Utah, to write about worn Jeff, now he's nineteen years old and he is close in some ways to the demographic.

Many of these young woman male shooters, and so we really should get his perspective on it, and we started time with him and its when he kind of stepped into the Another family business here. That's part of this whole narrative. I remember saying to him. I said you know when these events happened. Woody Whittier friends say when these big shootings happened. Whitworth What are they think about it? Ah? Well, you know they might post about it on Facebook for a minute, and then everybody forgets about it and any. I said what were what are you? What do you mean? I bet you seem flakes and then he said, will you you didn't go up the way that I did you dont know what it was like growing up In my view, no with I generation with the internet with being bullied. On social media with the kind of movies we ve been exposed to with all these different that with the music we ve grown up with everything the video games, so he started you know telling

So we started interviewing him at length and there we started interview in his friends for weeks You know. Well, if we can profile James HOMES. It out Much as you would like to because you just didn't, have access to these things, by now America had seen many, many many mass shootings schools, public other public places. This was something it has become common in the culture. So what if you didn't decide to just profile the one individual whom we eyes call Aberdeen the an individual who committed these crimes, but what in the culture is abhorrent, what might be influence these young men to do this over and over and over again and that so we with our sons, help he said things through us like

destroy, said you don't know how I grew up or what does that mean, and then he said I know I know kids. I know guys who could have done this. You know joy, and so we began to explore their. What in the culture might be influence people. You know too too, You ever push them in this direction and what is the difference between? like say our generation, which is considered the the baby boomers with his generation, which is the milk millennials. Part of the thing that we were seen was if they grew up with the bureau growing up with these doom and gloom, apocalyptic types of events happened: aim, for example like in a wide UK and nine eleven, and you know it just like one thing: after another way thought. Well. We grew up with the cuban missile crisis. You know yeah, but they seem to have had it. You know, but they were too rounded, by more

and obviously a lot of the violence depicted. No fictional violence movies and things like that and, as I think most people I to this probably knowing James Homestead sort of modeled himself after the the Joker in in the movie the bad man movies and you know had gone so far as the sordid died. His hair. I guess to look like Joker in one of the movies, and I think the movie that preceded this one, the Joker Head put together thirty million dollars in cash and had decided to burn it in the movie. It was in this once were dark night rises, yeah with ledger playing the Joker here, but he would but anyway, that burn the movie to make a statement about, Oh materialism, and no are you guys so

James HOMES on there afternoon beef, for he went into the theatre had put together. This elaborate, no book spiral, notebook! That's why the british call the spiral no book, and he decides. To send it to his psychiatrist? Who was the head of the sick psychiatric department at University of Colorado Change home also where a phd student. This was not some somebody who, was not educated or not intelligent. He had three. Point: nine Ford great average in college. She was belief I bade kappa. He had. All of these are paternity and he went he sent his note book in which he knew the authorities would eventually find he had put some burnt twenty dollar bills in there to echo what the Joker had done, the movie, the sort of thing David. The whole note book is about

Trying to find meaning in the culture is trying to find basically reason not to become violent, and he meant Some of the cultural influences that we were starting to examine how, for example, with Her son told us a lot about violent video games, which we really didn't know very much about, has really didn't have them in the house when used growing. I, yet you knew that data plan and that other people's house, he can't really you know, guard child from everything. The coms was watching eight hours, violent videos in the run up to the crime when he and when he did anyone who was committed the crime. He had this kind of electronic hard, throbbing pulsing music on road sort of like he was in a video game and when he was gunning All down when you have talked a lot to us about the prescription,

medications, like adder all giving our young people, when they were experiencing psychological difficulty or things like that in the EU. Tom story in the spring have twenty twelve. He sought out the head. I kind of tree there at the universe. The colorado he went in and said that he wanted to kill a lot of people. That's pretty much deeper. Quote the. He was prescribed these drugs. He came back. He begged and he was very tormented him. He was looking for a connection he needed help. He was he was described benzodiazepines and also, SS our eyes right, but he resumed the psychological and emotional distress and he was trying to help himself and

The response was to prescribe the demands and then, when he came back, the response was to increase the dose and again it just just the story become about something larger than just this one, every individual, if you would go through the list of some of the most well known school, shooters or mash shooters over the last fifty ten or twenty years is striking since there, in all documented of how many of these people were on these medications, the ill effects of that

and the sort of real ability to deal with whatever was re underlying psychological problems, not saying that those those medications Dar not helpful they. They certainly help alot of people, but what we were finding after talking a lot of nerve scientists and the different types of doctors that we were talking to, the brain is plastic still at that at that age. You know between, like them, the teams and early twenties. It's still developing, so you kind of economy, wonder what kind of effect is it having on people as that in

studying enough. But one thing I'd like to say about working on this book and I talked earlier about collateral damage of seeing. You know how families and people are affected by one person in a decision to kill, but when I had to cover this particular murder trial on, I have to tell you that I've seen a lot in my ears of covering murder trials Well, you know from the remnants of the women and the bodies in the barrels mean you know shown on autopsy photos in our from every every kind of thing you could possibly imagine, but I've never seen anything like what we have to sit there and watched the autopsy photos of, though, but of this people that were shot in the theater, including the young six year old girl and they had therapy dogs in the court that day and that there be dogs were four

anybody that was in the courtroom that day watching on having to sit there should there I could. I could watch all I had to put my head down at times, but the collateral damage in this case was not just all those families, and the people that were not only killed but main forever in a paralyzed, but our whole community, because Denver had at the Columbine shooters, you know how many years earlier was it thirteen thirteen years earlier? So that is what gave us the impetus to say you know, maybe we'll start writing sufficient for awhile might be all right, a screen play and we did. We wrote of fictional screenplay and death. Adoption by a producer, Norway, and we were very happy to be working on that and not to say we alter not not to say that we won't ever work on a true crime book again, but that was a turning point for me anyway, that the theatre,

so what we learn from writing a book and we would hope that others will learn some things from it. If they read the book, is that just or a broader examination of some of these things, We are talking about the violent video games, see them nations referred earlier the bullying that the up all of these influences and am throughout the book we interview and quote young people. So it's not the streamlining on in older timing. People are age but to get their voices in their perspective about who is doing these these kind of acts, and what can we learn from a m, and so it became more

cultural examination. Then just look at this one case. We don't have enough time to go into this, but we have covered this book. The shadow on the mountain Nancy, five the Doktor Williams Tyler and the murder of aspens golden girl. But I wanted to mention that it seems another of lesser theme is the incredible wealth that some of these aspects enjoyed and was a factor in many of these cases? Wasn't it It is I mean money. Money definitely played a role in that particular book shadow on the mountain. The money was a factor in the John Robinson Katy was killing these women and then taking their money. It did warn. Jeff's was doing me different thing, some of them illegal, too,

generate money for his sex, so he can continue to to rule over them. So yes Absolutely I want who were thank you very much for coming on a talking about this true crime, rhetoric, spected, and I also want to urge listeners to go to the archives and listen to the other, dedicated interviews that we had about each one of your books, not all the books it we cover this evening, but many of these books that we discussed this evening. I want to ask of how they may take a look at you websites. Stephen enjoys tell us how they might take a look at all of the books that today, that is called Stephen, singular dot com, it's Stephen PHP as I am, do you l a are dot com and that that has all the up to date, information and an including this new book is coming out in July the sheer called killer cults, which,

a lot of parallels between the current leaders and some of the serial killers that we talked about today. Broom and for those interested in me, Oj C Burke Book legacy of deception or the Germany Ramsay Book there lay presumed guilty. Theirs, Her available on Amazon Kendall has he books, there links on that website to yeah yeah so he pushed there any time we're going to media things or or other about so we'd like to thank you so much stand for taking the time to go through all these books with us today No, it's a lot, but we really appreciate your support and yeah. It's a great being on again. Thank you very much for having shown its an absolute pleasure him, and it really is. You are two of the most deserving people to talk about these. These are and why,

true crime classics. I think people drowned arouse about so many books, but these definitely are true crime, classics and just the way the EU approach each one of these books, a thorough, incredibly exhaustive investigation and the incredible access that you have as credible and respected journalist brings the listener into a world that they wouldn't have otherwise. So I want to thank you very much for your complete body of work so far and we look for or to talking to and discussing killer cut out in the next following months. I want to thank you very much and even enjoys. Thank you very much good night good night.