« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers

SUBURBAN NIGHTMARE-Emily Webb

2016-11-03 | 🔗
Think nothing ever happens where you live? Suburban Nightmare is a collection of stories that are hard to believe, except they really happened – and all in the streets and homes of the Australia many of us know and live. The suburbs. These cases range from recent murders to some historical stories that will shock and surprise.One of Australia’s best young true crime writers, Emily Webb probes the black underbelly of our towns and suburbs, and exposes the darkness at the heart of Australian life. SUBURBAN NIGHTMARE: Australian True Crime Stories-Emily Webb
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, room murder with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. Think nothing ever happens where you, live suburban nightmare is a collection of stories that are hard to believe, except they really happen.
In all in the streets and homes of the Australia. Many of us know and live the suburbs. This pieces range from recent murders to some historical stories that will shock and surprise. One of Australia's best young, crime, writers, Emily Webb Probes, the black. Underbelly of our towns and suburbs in exposes the darkness at the heart, Of australian life, the book cover featuring this evening, is suburban nightmare in true crime stories with Special guest journalist and author Emily Webb. Thank you for agreeing this interview and welcome back to the program Emily web thanks Having me down, it's always a pleasure. It is always a pleasure and you've outdone yourself with this collection as I just spoke to you, I was outraged with some of these stories because, as I had mentioned,.
Australia has, Similar system it seems to, the canadian judicial system, as opposed in dark contrast with the american system our congratulations on a fantastic collection here. Let's get right to this. Let's talk about a story. Did you title mad in dangerous a killer named Kurt Dumas. And it starts off in september- one and eighty five in Melbourne at a shopping center washroom and a woman, is at the stall and cleaning up in this shopping center washroom And maybe you can tell us what happened? is from there, okay, so yeah. This is quite an unbelievable story inside this lady was in a shop
center that on the main street in Melbourne, uhm, it's called Beat'Em Plaza, which is in Burke Straight, and so this was in the 1980s she was in the washroom washing her hands and suddenly she felt like a pain in her back. She turned around and there was a man in the toilet and you're staring at her, and she was absolutely terrified that he was about to rape her and it turns out he shot her with across parts. Now she managed to escape he he left he got. I guess, speak in a white. Doing anything. But yes, so that happened and that that and sold for a while until this man actually committed a really really does awful awful crime and lives arrested. For now. You talk about dumas meeting Lindell Martin Miss Martin, they became
friends and they met at a Parkville adolescent unit, so they both had sex. Patrick issues you say so yeah! first of all this little meeting here and where doom is there friends. They haven't seen each other in a while, and he dismisses invited to Miss Martin's for dinner, so tell It's a little bit how people disk or that something went amiss at that dinner. So, basically so yeah carrot and Lindale had met yet in his Parkville psychiatric facility. Now, but young. That was sort of like you know, like teenagers, in early twenties when I'd mash and side, I rate rate running to each other. I guess is how you describe it in non: stop isolating of in a city areas in Melbourne and carried it invited.
Hurt Ellendale to come right out and have dinner. You know whether or not I'm I think that were in some ways. Romantically linked at one point. Yeah. It's starting contact and these Basically, what happened is yeah. The time code invited Lindel overran during the course of the night. Don't We only have Kurt's version of what happened. He he basically murdered Lindel show wait wait a crossbow. You seems to be he's with his weapon of choice, as in the first attack, and then more horrifyingly, as well as that Actually ended up keeping her. She was dying and she was basically how it was found out that Lyndell had died, was had gone round he's flat because he had fled. She had get in contact with him. Now, there's a big history straight
him and his mom and his childhood quite disturbed childhood- that I can go into an as well and she basically went to the flash and found Lindell Eddie covered under under tells and Kate had gone missing a few days prior now they find they're looking for do miss and he's he he flees to Tasmania staying at a youth hostel. That's where they arrest him and, as you write the book they find a Crossbow ten Errol, some bullets, her panties hello, Talk of Miss Martin's, hair pair of hands- us masking tape and a knife and from the beginning. He starts admitting certain things and you write some again very amazing. He was speaking to someone he was saying when she was still alive and resisting.
And police officer asks why did that and tell us what his response was up this question on. Why about the she was telling But more about what you write in the book about this. So basically yeah he'd gone on the run so Tasmania. Many of those you don't know is I'm a state of Australia, but it's actually in an island and island at bottom of the country they would have had to You know I get a get a fairy, I mean actually all sites that made a bit of a sleep country town called are and he he actually banks stopped in the course of that by police, But yeah he was actually I'm really apologize. My alerts are on. Computer and I'm trying to turn them off, and I will I will get to that. But for that noise interruption. I think the update did something too, so. Basically, he was actually arrested in Tasmania, and I found this. You know kids of stuff
and he and that he cheetos you know, weaponry and I guess a rape, kit or murder kit. You would call it was part of what he did too to Lindel and she um and he bought to found her mouth and basically said he got some angry that he, the Crossbow editor when the place for like talking to her he really. He said that he was so distressed at her death. He couldn't for days and he denied actually raping her after he shot her with the crossbow. But basically he said that tried to claim that all that was sick, that he never do it, but You know the place were quite shocked, basically that that he done that, so it quite sickening to the place who interviewed him. Yes, now you talk to
Kurt do miss his mother and she gave evidence at proud. Obviously, trying to mitigate the severity of his crimes and his and hence the sentence, but you did say that he had a severe head injury so tell us a little bit what she said about his early life. These injure these and other psychiatric contact He had with the authorities, so tell us a little bit about what she said at court sure let's do- was actually born in America, so he's american citizen is born Michigan in nineteen sixty five and they had moved Australia, uhm. I think we he was about ice or something like that, but his mother had told the car in coroners courts are there in the coronial inquest into Lindel's death. She told the Carnesecca that is, some had actually suffered a really severe head injury when he done fallen from
a table when he was only a little baby about three months old. So I don't know it was doing on the table. Maybe that way you know changing his nappy or resting him there, whatever I'm not sure, but she she had said that since add accidents, he I had several brain operations, that was in America and he acts have a plastic plate put into his head because there was fluid taking in the brain. So I guess it wasn't shunt you call it. She. She told the inquest that operation really changed. A child. I mean he he. I guess you don't really know what to buy the when they're three months old, but he'd grinding to quite a violent big double child and he had kept getting expelled from school because of his violin out and had had several steeped in mental hospitals in a straight, and the United States, 'cause they'd move to Australia. Then he returned to very car, inside
some family members for a little while and then he would change with straight. So we kind of flip flopped around and x. Had been caught in America when so I could probably get a teenager he'd actually involved in an incident with two little girls who we basically my really sexually assaulted, and so he was in sent to a child and family clinic for assessment, sorry quite you know he had a very chequered past. He was quite dangerous. Absolutely now in ninety six, it's fine. The travelers in December ninety six and by that time again like the despite the statements that he made unprovoked to police. That would indicate this super blase and casual attitude about what he did and also to
intimate guilt at quarter was a little bit different, but they did have letters that were written to a work colleague that use They revealed the depths of his disordered and violent mind. What was some of the stuff that were written in those letters that, I'm I'm just trying to I'm just going to I'm just getting to the ball come flipping through it as we speak. This is actually one of the cases. I think that really got me going on writing another book, so I sort of felt quite uhm. I don't shocked by it but yeah. It's almost like you want to put these things out of come on from time twenty, so you don't have to think about it again, but you're right. He actually did write to a work colleague. He worked it like a factory. That he worked with these colleague nothing. Think this colleague was nine John, I'm just trying to find the actual exact reference, but it basically when that we can, is it as evidence? It was black
by the judge that you had a that is provided graphic evidence that there was something very wrong with these applicants mentality. So his friend was a man called John Beta and he had worked together. It like a small goods factory. Like you know that makes me it's in salamis things like that, and he actually gave evidence at the trial about a letter that Kercher mask sent to him and in later on quite sick, but The message actually signed off William tell that was his prison dick Obviously because of the Crossbow link, you know in prison. I guess they quiet very, very document. We say kind of nicknames, so basically this letter, John, by maybe evidence and said that in the letter It was written, I'm sorry what happened? I didn't plan it. The chance was there and I took it so John, I'm capable of killing someone and I'm not even feeling guilty. I'm not a man.
Killer, so that was yeah. That was one the things that you know. I would say the grist for the mill for a night the evidence that cat was yeah quite a calculated killer. Now, with that, the court was convince he was convicted. He was sentenced to life and I want to refer. Is with very much like Canada. We spoke just before the the program It's not really a life sentence. It's not an action all it so sentenced to eighteen years before parole, eligibility, eligibility, and then he got another sentence again. This is another thing we see in Canada of three years additionally concurrently, which means nothing in real practical terms not, and he was really right and now he was released as as early as he possibly could you write in two thousand and three now yes,
how think this story might be ending. So, let's tell us what happens with Dumas when he ends up back in his home country. Of Michigan or of America in in back in Michigan what happens after he gets out of prison and when he's back in Michigan sure sorry yeah. He was really some time time in two thousand and three now, I'm not exactly sure I couldn't find out and if anyone does know I'd love to know, so I'm not sure if I'm Kate was actually deported because in Australia they do have caused to you know if you being born in another country, annual you're mine operators trying to discern like we've had it situations where people have emigrated is you know, compound pound had come either it climbs and then, when I finish, this sentence actually deported back to their their in the that it doesn't matter side being,
eighty. You know I, when I came to Australia and I had become the strange this and I get to port it sucks whether or not he deported or whether he left resigned volition, I'm not, but he ends up back in America now there is X, he mentioned, that he has a daughter. He was living in Hawaii now not sure if this is a recent thing or each fathered fathered a child. You know when he was a teenager living in America that that stuff I couldn't find out so in back in America and he's living. You know I sort of working in some. You know you know just blew. College jobs. I guess she's doing you're living in renting, in basement of a house from a and his name was tenacious and house and she was in her mid thirties in the township of Redford in Wayne County ends are he was living in that basement. Mrs House was, was separated from my husband, but she was
at a new relationship with a man yeah, she had a boyfriend, so I she had northern correct three one of her job. So I don't exactly know how kind bay that he went to the basement side. I haven't said this is in December two thousand and four sorry. You know A year and a bit after gets released and I'm The medical card name and who's in a relationship with Denise is trying to contact her, and he just can't get on to her she hadn't she had shown up to work place. He driven by the house and have vehicle. Wasn't there, so she wasn't Hyman use just quite baffled, so basic the body kit which he was driving around the straights and he spotted her car, which was Jeep, Cherokee but she wasn't in the car. It was actually Kurt Umass in the car and he knew Kurt, obviously because he was the border in the house and he basically chased it
sound choice, Tco down and blocked the car off in a sort of cul de sac. You know where he could wear coat, gymnast couldn't get out and he called police basically, and so the police came and you know it was quite a sis, Vicious situation, you know Kircher matter, try to evade the police and You know he the place of was sandwich, based on the same had written in his incident report that he approached the car saw the man he was. This man was trying to rev the engine and to get out of the ditch that they put himself into, and I see play so couture muskets out of the car and they put him down and look at it. Is identity papers and find out who eats so they're, obviously very worried about Denise at this point so toads beside himself. Clearly, he can't find They said I die or go back to the house, and so two
This is went to the house to check on her and that this was probably, quite late at night at this stage about one thousand one hundred pm the house is in complete darkness. The case of the house are in the car, so they use these to get in half festival die ring the doorbell, and then you know that Denise is got a dog, a very big dog in its back. King, it's barking like mad, so they wait for Todd. The boyfriends come to the house, so we can come animal down, so you know so they don't want anyone injured, they get in the house and they calling out Denise his name and there's no answer so the moving around the house and what happens is one of the offices goes into the bedroom and they find Denise on the bears. She had a towel over her midsection, her clothes and pulled up. Naked from the waist down. There was blood, a large pool of blood near the side of her head and she, being bound sort of
Little behind her back and she was dead. She had been killed and you know what happened was: is Kercher Mass he'd murdered her in a very scarily similar way to what he'd done in Melbourne, not old as you guys in the 1980s, so basically yeah? He read it again, he'd been let out and it made it again in a very similar way. Sorry, these women just had no I do you how dangerous he words? No one did and I'm not sure whether that's because of lack information sharing between countries. I don't have a leg. Okay, but I just quite shocking. You know that he killed again. He was, I don't know, who is being monitored when he went back to the United States because it been in jail in Australia. So these are sort of unanswered questions for me, but I did get quite information from the police in county. That was very helpful with what they give me under a freedom of information
I shouldn't say that how I got the details about what happened to Denise a does. Your rates write to Dumas again at court. Try for trade things differently than reality but in the end they realized it and the outraged Mister Newman Todd Newman, publicly yeah pressing for and an outraged over the somehow or other he could have been convicted before and then to do this again and he had found out that when his girlfriend was still alive that Umass removed her clothes and had sex with her put duct tape on her mouth and her hands state behind her. So and then when he lied, when he denied premeditation, they did a computer check, and so Does it show that the information that they had Australia again was
incredible that this person was ever let out of prison wasn't given a life sentence. This idea that somebody could have been re deleted from the kinds of crimes given his background, given what he had done given thing that he had said about the crimes. Incredible at least this time in America he was sentenced to a minimum forty three years, maximum eighty and as you earliest parole date, two thousand and forty nine and he'll pay dead by then sorry, I mean there's not a real chance of him getting, but he very very mentally disturbed and very dangerous man, and there has been a lot of a lot of public city in Australia. Melbourne, especially in recent needs, be because we've had some murders committed by people who were on parole and not really being monitored close Klay enough for now the parole conditions? I
extremely much, much Tasha. Sorry, for instance, the matter in two thousand and twelve of that, a young woman. She was irish, you know, husband, lived in Melbourne, could your mom and she was actually made it by a man who was on parole. He was a rapist and Adam Corolla really had been checked and said that that was really the case that blue. I can this whole issue of you know. Weather You know being properly monitored and that the fact that they're walking out on the street and the real danger to their community so there's been an immense amount of publicity here, but in terms of You know when they jail someone. So, like your life without possibility of parole, we do have prison in Australia. Who do have that sentence in Victoria, in particular that rock
I can think about later. We can that have that sentence, but that you know it's still: it's the west of the West and I S at games are dangerous, that I can't be let out, but I mean in my mind to catch a mass would fit that bill. I thought he'd probably need psychiatric help for the to be soft, really at least yeah I'd? I think that any judicial system that wants to take chances with killers? Is it responsible, and when this sort of thing happens, not that you can bring any ng back or or convict these people of negligence in some way, but this it's clearly why the US system is at least superior in this one way, despite the best intentions, maybe even the
reformed up? Hopefully the killer would have changed in prison, but regardless there's very little understanding in the community and they listen to the community outrage to never killers or rarely that killers ever out of prison, some states are different, but certainly given all the circumstances with this to mass I can see how he was ever released. The first time myself and it's it's interesting, the case it really hasn't had that much publicity. In fact, I think this might be the first time it's been written about it links but the way right. I found out the link. Was I had come across the initial case when he'd made it Lindell in the call my my primary section- I you know, as you get a you said you you you you file stuff, you like put it in out, put it in a group of things and think that
could be. You know that could be interesting to write about. I need to find out more and it was when I was just you know a three day surf the internet. You talk being green. I I this link to Denise House, and then I you I did a little bit of tracking back and that's when I found out that yes, it was your Umass tonight when I made the approach that Bexar County place. I want to obviously absolutely sure it was the same person 'cause. You need to make sure they could be to Kurt your message. You never know but yeah. I really really shocked because part of the documents and there's a picture of it in the book that I got from the places the actual facts to Interpol. To check whether you know about his prior conviction, in Australia and ended up. Yes, he was the same. It was the same one. Particularly cinematic part of your of that story was when
Kurt Dumas is. The person informs the police. And a senior official and that they live I've got a criminal record in Australia, so that'll so called very poor he'll. Can't believe. He can't believe it yeah that's right. He He was shocked, I mean when, when he was in Kercher masters, basically he said He was saying to the I guess: the officer is booking him in he said all house jail and and the man the officer responded. Why is that? And he said, oh, you know you know I'm guilty and then you could crazy as well, but quite calculating with this, and at this stage I did not know about the violent past and then yeah just a few hours later, I guess I would have found out from faxing into Poland. You know during the place interview he he you know, obviously I was talking about it and did mention that he been arrest
good first arrested many lights on. Now, let's move on to wear now to cover all the stories. Obviously, in this book incredible collection, but I thought I picked out a few four and the next one, I think that it really is one of the most amazing ones in the book is called the ultimate betrayal. The murders of William and PAMELA Weightman. Yeah, so let's, let's go through this a little bit. I will say that in One thousand nine hundred and seventy nine, this couple adopted David and and went to great to Sydney, Australia, Ann and she had a sister name, Margaret Irwin and her
Alan so yep so tell us a little bit about who the Weightman's were an their life with David. What did it seem to the outside world? and relationship. She had with her sister and her brother in law. Tell us a little bit about their life before this tragic murder. Sure so um, as you mentioned, PAMELA and William. He was known as Bill adopted David's, maybe in England, in one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine and then I immigrated to Sydney when he was about three years old and they settled into Quanta N, like in Sydney they we run a successful child care center. They lived in nice, I'm not a nice part of Sydney and really did gives their son. You know all the things that
Are you would want to give a child, and so it seems like a fairly. You know. Good upbringing and PAMELA's was very close to family, very close to his sister Margaret Ann Allen, who still I lived in the UK, but I think they got together quite regularly and yeah, so that was what losses like and then it changed pretty tragically, in January of the year, two thousand. Tell us what happened that day and how, only sister got the information. The news tell us about that and the details of what she learned Ok. So what happened is in on the night of January, two thousand ranger was just, during a normal patrol of a national Parkinson southwest
and he noticed that there was a section of a wire mesh fence that had been broken. I guess I was missing an on a new instigation he found a car. It was on a a service rd sorry, quite out of the way of you, know off the beaten track, as we sign a strong Leah off the beaten track of the mine mine right, and he actually found this car down an embankment, and that was two people inside a man in the driver seat. In the woman in the passenger seat. So they were slumped slumps over. The man was in the footwell and the woman was still secured by her seat belt, and these people were identified as bill and PAMELA White Men and you know that being married, a very long time, no childhood sweethearts and and he that find them they've died together. What happened there needs PAMELA sister.
And her husband to identify them now, This dryer that I'm night attended the the That was found not one could find died with the sun to let him know I would have to do with parent to be so. That was very, very you know I distressed and wanting to get in contact with you and so I had to identify the bodies, and you know their bodies were quite badly bruised, and you know They looked like they'd, been through a real ordeal, but basically what happened was the coroner? put it down to a car accident and it just didn't sit well, we Margaret Irwin. She she thought this is not right. This is not how much parents taught at my sister and her husband died. This just doesn't well with her and basically David seemed to be very detached
when he was told the news, like oddly detached twenty founder, his parents had died, you know not the affected reaction. You have when you find out some awful news like needs and then that set real in Martian the this quest by Margaret and Alan and it really it really took their lives actually broke their marriage up in the end, but that would dedicated to finding out what exactly to bill and PAMELA and unfortunately their suspicions were that it was someone very close to home that had killed them. We, you talk about it is such a fascinating story because they re we did have a fight. You know Alan and Margaret Irwin really fought against everybody, even the coroner's report to say,
listen. She didn't have the ring on her finger. She would never left home without that and and Allen. Question why they're even driving in this park, and so what did happen was they did. He pushed any pushed any persist and finally, in two thousand one as you right, there was re examination of the case they couldn't really not going to bring back the body because they were cremated but The original corner had to look at them formationen, realized his mistake, and so this so tell us a little bit about that mistake and his Claire location of that mistake and or correction of that mistake, and what that led to sure. So, as you said, Margaret O in her husband just kept pushing the help. Sing for paper, a open nice and in between in the midst Es David who had inherited all his parents. Money was
You know living the life of Riley troubling. I bought half all sorts of stuff, just living living the high life. So what happen and eventually they did convince the car, not whose name was adopted Kayla to have another look at the case, so he brings up the original po. Modem file on his computer, This is when he realized he's made a really awful mistake, so in his report, when he had. Said that PAMELA, Whiteman David's mother had died of head, injuries from the car crash, he'd actually been looking at all tops. Results from another patient and he taught Top ten incorrect report number into the computer. You know you know what it's like you. That time and time again, just one Wrong number: you know one wrong number can main the diff between you know a global. I natural crash, or something like that. So he'd actually made this dreadful mistake,
really botched the initial investigation, so the air wins kept, pushing and pushing, and during this time they had really come to believe that David had killed his parents. All are change the death. Sorry it was in credibly incredibly traumatic time for them, but basically the injuries on the white men's bodies just did not match up with coroners report. So bill wait. Had bruises on his face that they didn't match up with the steering wheel. You know so say that to that happened before the car accident had other bruises on his body and it actually, on re examination. It actually looks like you know, someone had help him down, like someone's neighbors on his chest, those kind of bruises or he been gripped opinions by another person, but he had these bruises on his arms. So really they couldn't be caused by a car crash, and MRS Whiteman as well PAMELA, had also had breathing similar breathing on her arms
on their legs and there was also said it it's found in there. Bloodstream. So this this new port really vindicated the irwins with what they I strongly believe that PAMELA were actually murdered. They won't Do you have a car accident. Now as well, one of the the most dramatic parts of this story is use. This increased suspicion from Margaret and Allen at one time, right after the murder of her sister, though They had brought him into the family and tried to carry on as normal, but they their suspicion, grew and grew and grew and and so at one point, they Margaret asked him and what it was
it's very dramatic. What does he say? How does she confront him? What did she actually say and what and what does he? How does he respond sure so yeah this this took quite few years, so this is now in two thousand and four. So it's four years after They died the couple so they're, still keeping David in the family Fold, there are the barbeque at their home. You know it's also. Brain tradition. You know barbecue in summer in February and by she clearly there pushing him she sang today. But all I want to hear from your mouth is what you did to my sister and her husband, an she she claimed she noted that he David said Terry killed them so He turns out to be a friend of his sort of a list of you know, association who became kind of close to him. And they had been friends for long before the depths, but they had bonded over a love of my to blacks and
carried in. I had actually done some work. You know for the billing PAMELA like done a bit of driveway work for them, so they Basically, when my arwyn heard this she you know, I should David away to a quiet spot and wanted to find out more, and she said that David told her. I killed them. I'm an asshole! Basically, that's what he said. Sorry for using that language, but that's a direct quote that that's what he he finally cracked in revealed to her that he had killed his parents. Now they have a trial, he there is, obviously this Terry Danae, it's a back and forth David testifies against Terry. What is in the end, what is the result of the trial so basically there, both both in jail,
and I actually got a longer sentence and David White men. It's quite You know one of the things that really stuck in my mind about these cases, You know the realization for billing feeling PAMELA that it was their own son who org there was evidence that veterinary who is fighting for his life build, but he was sedate. So you would have pain, obviously not a not a to fight it off, and if you need the found out, he just was lucky. That said, he said to them. You know he must to bring. Imagine that just so I shot at that. You know he's on sun with involved Just would have been horrifying. So basically, Terry Danae is. Going to be eligible for parole in two thousand and thirty nine. So he's got a pretty long sentence and is David Weightman, his earliest for all day. It is actually twenty three hundred and sixty in ten years so they've been there
you're a trial that they of the wanted trials but carried in a was found guilty two thousand and twelve free trial. So yeah they are, they are going to be away for quite awhile and Steve Irwin's Obviously just left devastated by the fact that they nephew the child that has Sis and brother in law head adopted and I've been given a really good locked to a dummy, so yeah and I think the most telling quite finished the chapter, which was Margaret AIR when it told a newspaper that her sister couldn't couldn't have her own children and she was a happiest she'd ever been. I got David and then you just have no idea that years late this baby will grow up to you know you might called my killer kind of thing. I think it's quite horrifying, yes and and why you call the ultimate betrayal to is just add, Even more horror to this is that he was present when his mother was being killed.
And then the killer of DNA came and said. Listen. That was a lot of hard work. You know there's a lot harder than you think I need help with you father, so there was evidence. At least it seemed that he held down his father and killed his father codes. Geez he wouldn't have wanted to go on without the mother and super objects, it's very it's very cheap and it was, I think, there's you know, there's like guest question, about you know what not heavy drug use does too, as well as clearly had banner great show use your s marijuana and stuff like that. So I mean you know it's no excuse, but you do wonder what all this stuff does to your perception than you thought processes We can't blame any external thing for this kind of behavior. Of holding your your father down cannabis. I don't care what drugs drug on earth that can excuse partially. Any kind of behavior like that
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full case of someone being released after murder to commit another murder, let's jump to. This case, almost this is incredible. I had no idea. This is one of the most shocking and. Unbelievable stories that I've ever read incredible and you call it the butcher of Falun Gong. And mark era. Yep this is amazing and New South Wales in June in nineteen. Ninety eight housekeeper finds the body of sixty eight year old, Frank Arkell, and she had worked. For his father of in the family. She had worked for him for forty years. He has been bludgeoned to death hit thirty four times. Now he's a former Lord mayor of one hundred and one Kong and he's a Lifelong civil servant worked in finance. The mayor from nineteen seventy four to nineteen ninety one and also elected into.
Member of New South Wales, Upper House he's passionate about a city now, despite this seven years after his political karere. Tell us what happens, what is heated linked with, and so I was first about the murder itself. What what police find who finds the body and then can tell us a little bit about is very illustrious pass yeah, so you right. So one gong is an area in New South Wales. It's quite heavily industrial, not as So now, but it's time to the bhp which is the broken hill. Petroleum steel works, so it's known as steel city, so it's quite heavily industrial, but it's settings change. So Frank Arkell was mister, Mister Wollongong Ways to call him. He was was the city he
is quite dedicated to it so yeah he his body was found by his housekeeper. He sixty eight at the time he was in the bedroom of his granny flat, which is like, I guess what we call it's like a little bungalow. I guess at the back of of a property, and he it worked for him for more than forty years and lived a few doors down. So she know him very well. He had been bludgeoned to death, so it was an absolutely brutal murder. You know there's blood spattered everywhere, and so he, this discounted shock shock the city Frank, was quite a controversial figure, because several you, before he had been linked. He be named in parliaments by a fellow, member of parliament he beaned sort of linked to pedophilia, so there'd that a Wood
royal commission into the New South Wales police service several years before and bye. His name, is come up in the investigation, because there was a like a single day that being the fall reading that, where one by You know high level people. So there was a cloud hanging over him and to this day, obviously now and knows you know if it was true well, not that he was a pedophile. He was a lifelong bachelor that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but often that can be euphemism, for maybe he was uh. A man who you know a gay man, I don't know but yeah. He had in a controversial figure. But yes, so he was found dead and it definitely shocked to see. Free And then there was more to come said people wanted was used because in our of what happened with the Royal Commission of the allegations with it was, he said, potential foreman victim is he's the dumbest one. Man
There was more shocks to come for the city. Now you talked about him being outed in parliament and that person's name was amiss franca arena and she also seemed it's very interesting. How the stories link in this book a couple of stories that we will talk about this one in the next one where she also names of former, and this is a very popular again again. You talked about Cal, being popular person in his city. This is a pop, your judge, it is nationally- or at least this is a very popular judge. I'm listening name David yelled him, and so this are of Miss Frank, Archerina Arena names. Him is also as well and then another former mayor apparently was a key player in this pedophile alleged. Pedophile ring and was Bevin and in his death in ninety one you right, there was
recordings and other communications and notes from customers and from the boys they abused were found and improve. The Bevan had abused boys and then share them with other men for a fee and then, and then days after Miss arenas claims former Judge David Yeldham gassed himself in his car and he said before he confessed to sex in public washrooms, but he denied having sex with minors. So this beautiful ring is seems to be growing and and more salacious contention all the time Tell us what happens in the midst of all this next. So basically,. You write all the all those things that you mentioned and David Yeldham was a very well known, judge in Australia, he'd actually presided over many very high profile cases and you
I did make make it clear in the book that there was never any definitive linking of him with this. It was just that franker arena had name team, but he had lived. You know the family man, but he had lived a private life of you know private homosexuality. I guess and had you know he had admitted the commission that he had tight meant to sex mom was bisexual, but never never engaged. You know in abusing minors, so it was actually, I guess, the China's. What had happened was probably too much for him. I guess and that's what happened so I anyway, in the midst of all the is three weeks. Sorry, Frank: how cal that gets a lot of publicity that that that later that what had happened was two weeks prior to that. Another man in Wollongong had actually being murdered amuse. Delighted he was a shopkeeper. He was very popular you, like a little. You know like a milk bar kind of shop
sing in Wollongong and he had been murdered and mutual aided in his in his suburban high It was a suburb of New Newcastle called Albion park and police were really really reluctant to publicly link those two murders because they actually were very fearful that there was some sort of revenge killer out there because Mister ARC how so there are hand was gay as well, but just very you know at least you know, no, no word that he was involved in anything that Frank Rk I had been. You know: connect true, but the police thought these men now there's these links and they'll both brutally right inside the police were actually really right and I didn't want to get the CD so scared that they the killer. On the loose now you talk about, this guy was mutilated but as to detail his head was found in the sink. He had been involves the mutilated, his penis cut off his left hand
a hammer was inserted in his rectum and some of own o'hearn's. Bowel was left on a silver tray along with pieces of intestines. Satan was writ in the victims, blood on the Mir and wall in a pentagram, an inverted cross and the killer. This is, I couldn't leave the killers used O'Hearn's Hearns severed hand to trace the bloody messages. Now. What the police feel that there's some Connection with the Arkell murder and they believe it's again at some in revenge of some abuse. What is their idea and how do they proceed in the investigation from there? Yes, I basically it's obviously they've got their. You know their quiet quiet suspicions that they could be linked. That yes could be possibly someone who had been abused and was exacting out revenge, but there my real link between Frank AC, how
and I but I hand, except that will you know well known and popular member- with the community so they've, got these definite concerns about this and that there was another murder of a another. The following fitted me and I thought all maybe that could be linked. It ended up. I will not link to dole that did the brutality any of the murders, I guess got them extremely worried that this was someone waking revenge. Basically an and you know there was Some people who you know offer that price thinking this probably a youngish man. Who was you know the maze murders, so they also concentrated day, invest you gation into people who had an interesting Satanism and in the occult because of the I mean, not murder the same. It's about her ring because you could ever hear about and because of the Satanism on the wall. They started to look into people in the air say who Mott
had had an interest in that actually lead them to a man. Cold case Schreiber and he actually didn't leave Far from the Ahern, so they're thing, maybe he's good for this murder and they knocked they knocked, Amador, Kate tribe is flat made answered in his name was Mark Valera, but at the time Bismarck Bank Rayville. Which is, and he was nineteen any. He spoke with police and he let them have a look around the place. Let them look inside the Hughes, flatmate key bedroom, you know saw some satanic, inspired music posters. Christ is pretty disturbing hand sketches that dip did the headings and things so they were starting to think wow. This could be the guy, however, case drive actually had a very solid alibi. The time of the murders so the listen out just
on high alert. They really need to find this killer, because they are very, very frightened that he will. He will kill again so that basically appeal into the public after these for information and this this drew outside some pretty pretty solid tips for them from free, someone, including a woman who said her Ex boyfriends, will close that were very sick, a lot to the ones that the affair and I had been seen wearing, which were basically you know, Boots and Nike track pants, and I have been found at the medicine at Frank Arkells and they were not obviously in K with any of the other things that Mister Arkells closed. I like the shoes were different size and you know he didn't wear night tracks it pants, so they they sort, Today's must have been the killers gliding yeah. The girlfriend
went on to say that that the boyfriend was fat. Related with the murder and because same aggressive when she questioned him about the bloody clothes that were shown on tv, an app The result of that Mark Valero their surrender himself, as you write as a kill Mr Arkell and O'Hearn, and he had confessed apparently to his title, Indo instructor and they went to police, and there was a twenty hour interview where he confessed tell us about what Valero said in that twenty hour interview which was incredible. Yeah it's pretty pretty scary that actually found, what was really frightening for place I might be very lucky that I got that he handed himself in because it turns out that Valera was fashioning himself into coming a serial killer. Like he'd made notes in a book
the 83rd of serial killers and he nights in that book. That was some key evidence. You know he'd written a list of people that he wanted to kill and did also indicate that p. I have a guy what on his uneasy at least so. These men were Targ, did really for normal raise and then they will gay Frank, ok, Obviously, very high profile and because it was a you know. It's a smaller city, not the size of Sydney. People knew where Frank are cow lived. You know that kind of thing, so it wasn't like he was not accessible. I guess so right. What was really disturbing is that he told the place it on the day he could killed. Mister Ahern, who was the shopkeeper and his very quiet man, went about his business privately. He's he's reasoning basically was that he just wanted to kill someone, and it was just a random attack so
He'd seen Mister owned by sight when he was walking around the neighborhood, an really that was all it took for him to target him, which was really frightening, and he said that I had it in my mind that I just wanted to kill someone that day yeah they That was an incredible. At least people got that big closure as to the motive for this incredible crime despite what the media had sort of more intimated now, the thing is is that he said he had. At the trial, however, of course Valerik name provocation as a defense Disney. Yes, he did so particularly in the in the case. This is mister ahead, and this was must have been incredibly distressing for his family. Valero tried to claim that Mister who they try to you, know
come on to him. I guess and put him on the spot and ask the sex, which was absolutely not the case at all, like the forensics prove that that that was his basically one of whom defense that that that's, why he yeah he he killed. Mister hand in Self defense But you know it came out in the trial that Mark Valera had had. You know pretty pretty horrible childhood now excuse, but these things do get taken into account during trial. Does you united from canadian trials. Actually also climbs, I being sexually abused by his father as well, and this was apparently a real shock to people who would nine the family and it he never before mentioned this, so that was also brought up in the court case. Now.
If you even have the Father goes on the stand to deny that there was any of this abuse and then just one We think we're going to wrap up a story. He gets life without parole and then ten days later tell us what happens ten days later. Ok, so well, you're right, so maxillary get sentence to life in prison and he is actually never to be released. So he's one of those prisons in Australia who will never be released, and he was the youngest person in the country or in New South Wales to level and gone is to get that sentence. But you so he's in he's in jail. So, ten days after that sentence, his father is murdered, so Jack Van Creveld is murdered what happened? Is it's a even you couldn't get? The story could get worse, but basically the killer was case Schreiber, who was his flatmate and also the boyfriend maxillary cease to Belinda Van Krevel.
Sorry. She had convinced kates driver to carry out this murder and it was brutal in the extreme where Mr Van Crable was in our almost to capitated and You would choose twenty at the time. Belinda and she'd bye basically being the mastermind of this she'd she'd claims that the father had also fixed. Please tell for years and had even started to China, his attention to her young daughter, and basically, she told this two kids and said that you know, you need to kill him. You know he was killed with a fire fire poker and uh. The tomahawk and Windebank Crable and her little daughter were we're actually in the house or their father was killed and apparently case driver told police that, when he killed Mister Van Cravel. He did it for his friend mark who was in jail, and he said I told Mister Ben
crable pieces from Mark you bleep use an exploitive pedophile pedophile exploited, you'll, never molest another kid again again. Sorry head had, you know, said to Kate, this is what happened. You've gotta, like avenged. What happened to mark kill my dad. This is the reason why it's all happened and shit she's, actually sort of nine she's, quite notorious in Australia. Actually was the inspiration for a film that was my called suburban made. In my hand, it was like a black comedy About a manipulative teenage mother. He gets her. Her boyfriend he's pretty stupid, made to measure her father and she sits in the next room, so she yeah she is artorius in australian circle, she's out of jail and I told her that I dumped her evil van cradle, so yeah couldn't think it would get any worse, but it did so. This family certainly very very disturbed.
Again disturbing sentence. Treiber gets twelve years minimum again. This is a life sentence with twelve years for all ability, minimum she gets sick six years. For sure, yeah scary sentence is scary stories. Scary killers, scary sentence is, and you know add even more horror to this story. We're not finished yet blend in mark. Win three hundred thousand from her father's estate. That's right. And then in two thousand and two yes in two one thousand and thirteen you write to that. She attacks her boyfriend, stabbing him five times years in prison. She thought about you. She said sorry
yeah. I can tell you about that about that that when she attacked them My friend. Is that what you want me to talk about? Well, I can say the sixty minute interview, there was very sure, very, very interesting, sure sixty minutes, it's similar to the american version. It's one of our you know. Current affairs show so yeah Belinda she's out she's with a man called Marshall Gold, and she taxim, she basically step seemed during an argument and Hayes still very protective of her. So he told the place this marked and attacked by three, but obviously when their place searched the couple home want a blood stain and he basically tells the reporters when she was said Tent city still loves there. Any support there. It's because she's had a troubled childhood. Now then, together now, so she does a jail sentence and further fuel to the fire of
Belinda Bank. Quite a notorious woman. She The it was reported in a newspaper, called the daily telegraph that she whispered to her boyfriend. If anyone asks why you sticking with may tell them it's 'cause, I'm sexy. That was, yeah, I'm one of those salacious details of this case, and so when she was released from prison in two thousand and fifteen. She gives us exclusive interview to sixty minutes, and and the reporter, you know he says to her, will, can people feel safe? if you add in the community again and she she said Smoo, says schedule why not and Describe it in in one of the most dramatic moments of the interview, so the reporter hands pull into the book that her brother had written. His like kill, Linguist in the IDA, debt of serial killers and that had the yeah, the the handwritten list of his intended victims- and she had never seen his book before up close, apparently and written on the hit list was her name and so
she looks, really shocked in the interview, but then quickly brushed it aside and said. That's just him being angry. So there's this very odds. I guess it Bonds between them find all the all the things that have happened, yes, fascinating, fascinating! Now we we have time for one more story and Desoto amaze using one called the killer down the street Debbie Keegan murder, and you open with a very dramatic I mean basically there's a crowd outside a courtroom. Yelling Killam Killam to a man who towards a man who had murdered and raped a little girl and you also include a eighteen months before this date in nineteen. Eighty, seven another rape, but far worse
tell us about, as you do in this introduce this story that killer down the street and the crew outside the courtroom asking for someone's head sure, so this case internet MID 1980s, it was one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven and there is a very stock photo in the newspaper reported this law. Policeman trying hold back this crowd, who are basically baying for the blood of this offender who is being driven to court? You know in the back of the back to the place wagon and you they basically you can kill him, kill him so there at Blacktown court, which is in Sydney's out of west, and you that's a bit of a toys being noticeably of hardscrabble area, so real real working class really um some pockets of real. I guess social deprivation, but yeah there very very die. All gathered, and that would just
yeah, wanting this guy to be killed. What the reason there were also so upset was because I did not before in the been of murder and right of an rape, a young, nurse coordinator call and these these types remains one of still one of the most shocking cases in australian history. It it absolutely, horrified, the country and Nate had been abducted on her way home from work. One nice by a gang of men, some of them attain edge is actually an. I had hum it's it's very disturbing they had. Basically, you know gang raped her. An mre did her in the most brutal fashion, so they that community and Australia Stray was really still reeling from that. So what happened? this particular murder in nineteen. Ninety seven, with of a little girl called Debbie cake and she was nine years old and what
Captain D's trivia, which kind of in the MAC Metro area of that area of Sydney, so yeah, very yeah. Quite quite a you know about about what kind of town about was a bit back as she described it at the time and so she had been murdered in in her house, someone had got into the house and basically right. Suffocated her and it? You know it wasn't discovered till the morning by her mother so that just absolutely devastated You know New S, wiles again in Australia. Yes, you appley, describe this in vivid detail in his mother, had been separated from her husband and she at four little girls are living in a house and when she woke up in the morning. If morning put the kids to bed the one that Debbie had
I was sleeping with her sister Sarah, which was seven and when the mother came to wake up in the morning, her daughter was unresponsive, and then she discovered the brutality. The savage murder and also that the window would been open and yeah. But anyway, that's the outrage in the community is obviously natural but uses as you say that the police didn't find any forced entry, so they have to speculate that they knew the family, but there was, something that it happened on the night that Debbie was killed, old next door. So tell us what police thought about that possible connection from that break and enter that same Showtime yeah on the same night that Debbie was killed, been a burglary at the house. Next door to Debbie's, Debbie and a video recorder, a brain stolen. So the neighbor had woken up.
About four hundred am to feed her baby, and she seemed front door, Lantern window wide open. Now you know back then simpler. I'm you know. Maybe people didn't lock their houses as much as they do now, but the place just found it quite. Just saying that this had happened on the same night that Debbie admitted so they were trying to workout if it was connected or if it was just a coincidence, and there was no sign of forced entry to Debbie Debbie's home, so yeah that led place to be Is it the killer, knew the family or they knew the possibly knew the family situation that there wasn't like an adult male in the house at the time. So obviously they might feel maybe it commit a crime. So yeah, I think that possibly the killer just really walked in the door. You know Debbie's mama falling asleep in the t in front of the tv we've all done that before or and yeah the Killory possibly got in got in the house, the
two days after while the community is reeling in the police are running around trying to look for suspects. Two days after a seventeen month, old was abducted in Liverpool, and a purse took him also. In that case sold the video camera now that babe he was found, but there there was an attempted sexual assault. So now, and then you we take it from there, you take it from there that now we're at the funeral for Debbie, yet an tell us what happens at this funeral. So yes, I it is like more than one hundred people at the funeral very emotional. The media were there, and on the cover of the service, booklets Debbie's, to do little tapestries and they had a picture of the tapestry she done when she was six years old. So it's just heartbreaking. You know the innocence of that match. With the
how she died and during during the funeral. Said. All the meteor there, there was a hand written night that was basically thrown into a television power, then partly the symmetry. Today we had to delay the two detectives and the night was written in three different colors of pan and had quite a few spelling mistakes and let letter, I declined the killer was known to the cake and family and was actually at her funeral service. So look. The funeral was widely covered in the newspapers, In the literal sense made mention of another case in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven prodigy these murders, a little girl, had been killed in the house. While she was helping set the dinner table, someone had driven past the house and by c they fired into like a drive by shooting her. Let her name was test to bring cat, and she was five years old in that that was another very, very high profile cases,
you know, people were absolutely pulled and it it lake called into question. You know the violence around Western Sydney. What was the government doing about it so what is happened, we made actually never really. A lot of the charges got dropped against these Pape but it was apparently, I am, you know, some sort of tie back. I guess against. Test his father, who was allegedly having a feud with one of the people who had been uh tested for shading, so the really really horrible horrible story of an innocent, a little innocent girl like Debbie being murdered. So yes, so that happened, they didn't really work any sing at more from the night, but it did like gave them stronger um course to believe that yeah, the killer was going to be close by that wasn't someone who traveled from out of the area and committed the crime, as I mentioned before. What's interesting, is that that person
and that was convicted of manslaughter in that shooting of that child was again life but served only twelve years and he was sentenced by the judge, David yelled him, the previous story, now right yeah, I don't know who that you bring? No, you, you jumped Do the police have or get a suspect for Debbie's death and it's Rodney Thomas Clark yeah? How do they come to be comma suspect, and once they have him, much of the question and what does he do? He quickly. Confesses, so they'd interviewed him, a few days after the killing 'cause I'd, obviously gone around and canvas the area and interviewed lots of people and then again Wake later he went to that to the playstation, Michael Playstation, which was Mount drop Playstation. He went voluntarily, so he was a twenty one year old. He lived with his parents and his younger brothers in the same street and in his place
interview. He admitted he killed Debbie, so he told them he climbed in the back window to get access to the house. He just walked through. The house noticed that Debbie's mom was asleep and he claims that Debbie had disturbed him like whether or not he was there to rock the house. But then it you know he claimed that he put his hand over her mouth and he didn't to kill her but then obviously place the questioning him about. You know she was. She was sexually assaulted and it basically turned out that it was wild, This was happening, she'd been suffocated because it was like holding her head down into a pillow. So it's just it's just the most awful thing like you yeah and that's how she died is it was a back and forth. Do, of course, to mitigate his sentence. Of course, why not? They found him borderline mentally retarded
but he was sobbing in court. As you report is fat. Only was supporting him all the way and they talked about his history of drugs and alcohol. At first he had said, he was not alone but later admitted that that was a lie and. There was some attempt in appeal court to say that this was opportunistic and not yes, it intended to kill. However, tell us about this, how they authorities find something? That's Contrary to that, a list so if you say it is when he gets its the appeal for the sentence or the initial sentence, I'm just trying to remember the. What I'm talking about is that he provides that it provides a long list of the sexual fantasies
Thor where he mentions abducting underage girls, yep, that's right, so he basically had had. Talked about that and it was in, I think in offender, so he's in jail. He attending he's attending something called a custody based intensive treatment program which, when P, will undergo that. I guess it goes more favorably favorably in there you know it's more favorable to them when they want to go for parole and he basically in message in that in that that offenses were not opportunistic, as he said at the time, nearest, so he'd revealed during maze days this probe and that he'd actually yeah, as you said, a long history of these kind of fantasies with a violent same under aged girls and he had, he knew he knew Debbie
I'd seen her around and he had thoughts of abducting her. So it shows the premeditation mayor, not not there. He just rolled into the house, you know just on a whim. End was disturbed by her. You know, while trying to rob something, certainly no Again, the most horrifying part of these stories, I think, is the judge- thought despite all of this, that this guy should be eligible for parole. Yes, yeah, but it doesn't have to say about this wow the public did black it and does not like it, because he Is eligible to plot apply for parole again next year, so you know the justices in the appeal said that you know to family families stood buying and delayed that we continued counseling and his family support. His mother's still around his
Father had died that he could possibly establish a law. Abiding life fell in the community, yeah I'm not sure about that. But basically, yes, this is not going down well, and I think the most horrifying thing is every time he comes up for Debbie family it. It Ray reopened the links so as well as public outrage with people like, calling in talkback radio some people actually also started petition. So you know, online petitions are very popular now so last year a woman started, a petition to lobby for his parole, be denied lots and lots of people, one hundred people have signed it, and you know people with messages about how the crimes impacted them and basically the thought process. The thoughts are that you, now he's a monster? You need to keep him behind bars, so look. He is actually yeah he's up for parole next year, whether or
he gets it is another story. But I guess it is legal right to do that, but you if there are questions about whether whether you'd really want him living in your straight or not, if he gets out it's incredible to me that the the parole board, ignores the public Norse, the families intentions and then seem, to compartmentalize the behavior of the this killer and can find it only to the behavior in prison in a can rolled setting with these bill called rehabilitative programs now even rehabilitation. I just don't believe in rehabilitation, these people at all call whatsoever and and the horror of of a family and friends have To make an online campaign
three two years like they do in Canada, the same thing we have again, it's thank God is popular. But again it takes this incredible effort to get these people which are likely to get parole, and there are high profile cases in Canada like Paul Bernardo and Robert Picton. Will never get out And there would be an incredible outrage if they were ever considered to be out, but despite that there is still so Lynn, possibility and that's why it is so good to have April asian of parole of life said since, without the possibility of parole at. And then all these stories illustrate then demonstrate that. I'll. Try and you really I mean for Debbie's family. You know Today, her sisters, adults have grown up without their sister. I mean I can't I've got two children myself. I can't even imagine what it would like to be
through this, but I you know I do believe in rehabilitation as well, but in certain cases like this you've got a question. Would you be able to. Not act out on your fantasies or you know active, killed a child. Before I mean how can you baby, let out in society that that would be my question. Now, there's no, I see no need in demand to risk even if it's a slim risk a statistically small wrist regardless and put the family through anything more than murder and a court case, and in some of these cases the victims. Families have to go, pursue and hound the core words and then here a in a court appointed defense lawyer lie for their clients. I know
they're just doing their job but life for their client? In again, the most outrageous offensive ways to denying what This perpetrator is already admitted incredible. That's right- and you know you've got to think of when when, if in you know: they've got great family support and I am sure that does go a long way for offenders when they come out to rehabilitate but happens when the parents on around you know they died? Could the elderly these people you know left without support. I just don't really see with that absolute scrutiny. And supervision. You could really prevent them from doing something I don't know this. This cake Debbie's case is just so horrible and that's why I include in the book, because it just seems outrageous to me that you know he he's eligible for parole and it did it really really hurt that community
that will already hurting from the previous murder of Anita Cobby, it shocked them and they were there were the spotlight was put on them as a community, and I really just you know pretty Pretty down to earth people, you know: where in class paper looking out for the community- and it really- I guess it really fuck them that this could happen. Well, I I think the best supervision is. You know an eight by ten cage and that's Garron feed that they're being monitored and supervised forever. I want to thank you Emily for coming on, and talking about this late Suburban nightwear nightmare australian, true crime stories. Ah, for those that might want to find out a little bit more about your work or do you have a website and you do Facebook, let us how I do contact. I will I'd love to let you know I have a facebook page called Emily where books, so you can look.
Set up. I have a website called Emily web crime, which is details the stuff I've done. An the north american listeners. The book is available in a book. It's not available in hard copy unless you want to order it and pay the price teach, but it's it's just habit to print my ministry yeah, but it's certainly available by a open, I do have a lot of raiders. They threw get the books that way, so I'd really love to get some feedback. If you want to talk to me about anything but yeah. If you go over and like my page, would be great. I also have a blog that I've been doing for a number of years called true crime reader. I just reviewed true crime books and there's a facebook page for that. So that's just Another avenue to contact me well
like you very much Emily. It is been an absolute pleasure talking about suburban nightmare. I know I will be speaking to you again fairly soon. Thank you very much for this and good night thanks Dan good night good night. Do you like true crime or mystery podcast movies and tv shows? Well, let me recommend a podcast. I love called unsolved murders, true crime stories with a helper ensemble cast of voice actors follow Most Wendy and Carter as they take you an entertaining journey through real. Crime scenes and attempt to solve the case Listen now on your favorite, podcast directory or by visiting park cast dot com, slash unsolved that spelled park cast PA r c, a s t dot com,
Slash Unsolved, goodnight.
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.