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progressive casualty, insurance company NFL expect coverage not available in New Hampshire in North Carolina radio, you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening

an eighteen year old woman abuse from birth in a chronic con man collide to concoct the most evil pairing since Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo. Acting on a longtime fantasy, Michael Rafferty, convince Terri Lynne Mcclintic, along with them to kidnap rape and kill eighteen, eight year old, beautiful Victoria Stafford, the events that followed divided the committee D and change the lives of an entire town. The books were featuring this evening is taking Tori the true story of Terri Lynne, Mcclintic and Michael Rafferty, with my special guest journalist and author Kelly Beneski welcome to the probe

and thank you very much for Grandis Interview Kelly, been Aski. Thank you for having thank you very much and thank you for this book. Incredible. Let's get right to who these people are, because we have a lot to cover its incredible and graphic book and the incredibly horrifying story. Let's start with one of the main characters, Terry Lynn, Mcclintic. You say she was born in nineteen. Ninety would start Ontario teller audience? First, a little bit about wood stock, Ontario, an sort of the environment that Terri Lynne Mcclintic grew up until a little about her early life and where she winds up at an early age. What darkest is very community oriented, it's really small, but I guess you would call.

Maybe their website of tracks were Terri. Lynn was firm. She really never had much of a chance in that town because of the drug culture at the oxy cotton Tank Hill Area, Terry Lynn, mother, why am an attic? She went from cats the cat out very quickly, and it was that a friend of hers that ended up adopting cherry land and sea with very small and she was also an addict, so Teri Lynn was brought up in that culture where it was so prevalent that it was almost it's just it. It was the norm for her to see

who killed on the daily for them to be bought and sold everyday by everyone. She knew it was just that part of part of her life and part of the life of everybody in that area and her community and she had moved around a bit from different areas and would stop that she always did family was always centered around the same thing. You also talk about their occupations being exotic dancers, an use a part time, prostitutes, half and you also talk about than her adopted mother exactly and then, despite that, you know that Terry Lynn was adopted by Karel, even though she was almost in the same kind of situ and she was still adopted. She was allowed to have Terry Lynn, and can I also trouble with them her other children. She had trouble with the

the authorities over abuse and but still she was allowed to adopt Terri Lynn. She had didn't have custody of her own two children and yet was awarded custody of Terri Lynn right. I yeah for a little bit about being four four time and as probably a lot of these people with experience, it looked like things were looking up and she met a man named Rob Mcclintic where she got her name decided to get married and and tried and they've file for legal custody of Terry Lynn. Tell us about little out tell us a little bit about this relationship and what happened with that relationship. Rob was kind of the type where he saw the good in everybody really and although he

He was also from that area and familiar with the drug lifestyle. There was something about Carol that he he just believed in and she true they did want to change her life. But she was just too far too far addicted too far gone to where she couldn't. Even when she tried to get off the pain pills she she couldn't day. She did straighten up long enough. To get custody back of her daughter. I believe- and I was working, get a job at a convenience store when she rob decided to try for custody of Terri Lynn and they were awarded custody after. I think it was quite an extensive thing in order, but I this is about a year. It took an they world, war did Cassidy and things were

dead for awhile, but motherhood just too much for her and she slipped I can heavy addiction and eventually came a point where Rob just had had enough and he left. But care Terry Landon would travel from home to home to home to home. I am always go back to Rob, because that was her stable point and he would try to provide for Terry Lynn, but a lot of times Carol, would take the money and spend it on drugs or. Get away, but she continued to keep robbing her life, because that's the only way she could ever straighten up for any.

Now that I'm be at a weekend or a month? She just it was it. Motherhood was too much for her and soon after Terri Lynn was a toddler. She began slipping back and say addiction. You talk about the life of Terri Lyn after that, with this neglect and somebody, a mother, a guardian preoccupied with their own problems in addictions and lifestyle, and so that Terry Lynn was victimized in what way was she victimized at this early age? And then you talk about some of the trouble that she had lashing out at Karel, her mother later on She was sexually abused by more than one person

some family members and neighbors. She never told her mother, when she did tell her mom about the family member. It was dismissed as part of life out there, no one she didn't attempt to get her any help or anything like that. She was severely neglected. She, there was many many nights when she was breaking when she would have to ask neighbors I say: go when she went still closed from school, um. But then you know her mom would go sober for awhile and things with would turn up better and she would feel more Like a normal girl, but then it would also, over again, and she got to the point where she had and abused by so many men now,

just the family member in the neighbors and then she would. She had experiences with boys, her own age, and she got to a point where she it didn't want to interact much with men at all, and she said she thought out more girlfriends, but then that that didn't workout for her either. She found that she couldn't get along with with many people and she began to lash out at her mom, so she stayed out of school. More and more. She was known as the fighters. She began to be so volatile just to keep men, calling from her and then eventually women as well. And she just would she would. Check added anyone really. But her mom took the brunt of it on several occasions. She Hospitalise Disom baiting suit,

driver. She threatened her with weapon and eventually Carroll did call the police on her and, more than once, he went to juvenile detention in jail for attacking her mother and other girls in the school You say she becomes a real, tough. Young lady, taking thing from anyone and having crimes like robbery at knifepoint stabbed a man in the back. She in fact the police as well, and so what? What time? She had a lengthy record that used to tension, and she attack people even in detention themselves. So- and there was some stuff that you include here- some writings that she included- maybe maybe we can leave that or maybe

talk about that. Some of the correspondence she had with inmates that she bumped into in the in these institutions they can just talk about some of the things that were going around in her mind that she would correspond with other inmates what she did say so But those letters were brought out in trial as well, because she expressed such a blood where she just no bones about it, described the crimes that she hopes to commit someday, and on specific people and then just anyone in general and she she felt she was headed, vamp vampiric tendencies, and she was very descriptive about the bones she would break and the damage she would impart on. Just anyone in general, an

she would she and the girl that she was writing to, and the majority of these letters had nicknames for their selves. They would know gangster bitches and I variety of different things. I can't recall the mall now, but they she prided herself on how mean she was and that she would hurt and kill any she had no problem with it. Billy. I always thought it was a mechanism to just keep people away from her, but she also sought out problem. Then violence for some people that were not bothering her or she did several right around several robberies, an attempted robberies and just she did it didn't matter to her, even if she thought the person may not have anything she take whatever, whatever they had their clothes off their back, if she so desired and yeah the

Patterson Indiana twenty four in native now detention Center came back to haunt Harper shirt. Now, let's talk about this collision St unholy collision with Michael Rafferty, you say is the youngest child. Had two brothers. He was born October 29th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty, and he spent part of his youth with his aunt and his uncle in the small village of Drake outside kitchen or again in the southern Ontario area near Toronto uh, and they even attended school. Briefly in a suburb of Toronto, Richmond Hill.

Talk about a little bit about some of the things that he studied at college because there isn't much about his local. I mean his early life, but talk about his local college stint and what he did there and a little bit about his success or non success in his life in his career. Michael is a strange. Then he his childhood was not that bad. He wasn't abuse, you know he had the regular sort of growing up, most kids things went average. He had some set backs, but nothing that would you would consider neglect or Use or he in all by all rights. He should have been a normal person, but he even from a young age sort of, was. Unusual in that he he was very narcissistic. Everything was about.

And allow that no par for the course with say toddlers he he never got out of that stage. Everything what about him and he was very intelligent. He spent at what do you he did not graduate, but he did a stint in college and. He studied a variety of things. Actually he did some psychology and was not that he got passing grades, he did some auto body repair classes. He did some journalism classes, she did some medical classes and some botany class that you to be trying to find his his his interest.

While he did not really excel anywhere, he he didn't sell out, he could have made them quite a difference set because other path. You talk about some of his behavior as well, you say narcissistic, but he was sponge, Ng black a better word off of as many women as he possibly could getting whatever he possibly could drugs money and a place to stay, and that was his style. And then you talk about this small place but tore up tour me, Terry Lynn and Michael Rafferty meeting how do they meet and how to their relationship quickly proceed. They meet at a pizza, place and she's waiting in line behind him, and he makes a comment about how pretty she is, or some

Along those lines- and I start talking- and he writes his number on a pizza box- and she goes home and called them and they spent the rest of together from that moment on. I were always together and they seem to be. They matched up pretty. Well, yes, which is surprising because the Terry Lynn attitude she really wasn't. She wasn't after a boyfriend or anything like that, but it was his attitude of. He put up a persona of just being free wheeling and he no worries, no troubles and that appealed to her. He didn't really pressure for anything right off the bat. He gave her the impression that you know she could be like he was. He had no worries, he lived wherever he wanted to do and he didn't have to work. He he found

money here and there and people just gave him money immediately? She she felt I need for that 'cause. It was so opposed to the life she had lived her entire life. She didn't know anything. Other baby can basically living at everyone else's house. They would crash here crash there. He stayed with her at Carol, summon I would get motel rooms and stay together and today I'm using oxy cotton together, and that was really the beginning of the end. You say at first: she was his connection so this kind of thing was going on and they were just Perfect match because of the things that they had in common as well as other things as well, but this was one of the main things in their life. Obviously you said the

injecting two eighty milligram Oxycontin daily and as many Percocets as he could find, and so so Teri Lynn's growing loyalty and Iraq. Seacock cotton connection actually make Michael realized it. Terry Lynn should his one, and only, and so then they're inseparable and some of the things you talk about him going on these drives, and he just talking about you talk about that. He has incredible sex drive and you say that Terri Lynn, really that's not what it started off to be. But what are they talking about when they're going on these drives in from the very beginning you start talking about in the area, Terri Lynn had been here and there and everywhere with Carol. She knew everyone that sold everything so that right off the bat interested him and that's why he kept coming around till they became closer and closer could

chicken buy drugs anywhere any kind of drugs from anybody, and he liked it. And then I get you know. There's sex life became more of more vet, important thing to both of them other than the drugs, and he did realize that whatever he told her to do, she would do it. I think this came on slowly because of him being the only person that had ever stay. Get around her for any length of time and to give her as as much as as she was give him. She never had any sort of sexual relationship that didn't end with a punch in the face so find somebody to have sex with where it was it beautiful, as as they could, and she can't ever had it. She was devoted

she never. She never had a relationship anything like that before in her life. So then, you know they would take these rights together, usually trying to find somewhere to stay for the night or on a trip about drugs, and I began to share parts of their past with each other personality.

And they're like and just like, and he began to tell her that he had them as sexual attraction to young girls, a girl, ten and under the physically, and to begin with, she thought that it would. He was trying to sell a car. This is what she told me right that he felt that it was a game at first that he was trying to see if she would stick around. If you like, you would say the last global things he could come up with and she she took it as a test of you know how down she was if she was really going to stick around for him by things became more serious where he would actually ask her. What would you do if I, if I asked you this nets, that little

all right there and she would say well, I would do it and he go during, will do it then, and she would laugh and they would get over it and a few ice later. He would ask her again: if we see a little girl will you will you snatcher Terri Lynn would say yes, I will, but then she would hope that

eight. In that the moment Caroline, then he beat the home. Ninety nine place very upset that actually in bed the day that he tell her, that it was something she had to date. There was no more, he wasn't gonna ask for anymore and she said well, we can't just snap some somebody off the street and that's when I started to actually come up with a plan, how they would how they would do it. You talk about the d, discuss scenarios, hypothetical situations and then the reactions and an actual actual plans- and you say part of this too- is we have

even mention is that part of the reason there together as well. One thing they have in common is also is that he likes to choke women, strangle women, choke them, and she doesn't mind that, where other women finally came to their senses and ran off, can't believe it was a little bit of love. You even saying a book at one point. He says if I just somebody just gives you a little bit of love. That's really what you're looking for he. He believe what literally have to do to retain this woman, who is very press by that? Now you talk about also that they make these plans, but we now, let's. Meanwhile segue to this little girl Victoria, Elizabeth, Marie Stafford. And who she was and how she came to well, this is two thousand and nine that

No matter where you are that people would be allowed, go to school alone. So, let's talk about who she was in the going to family. She was in her mother and her stepfather, because it's important who these people are and when this event goes down. Tell us a little bit about her living situation and the kind of girl that she really was and the family. That really was that she lived with. She lived with her mom and stepdad. She was just a regular little girl happy little girl. She wasn't

abused or anything like that, her mom and stepdad did. They were in the sort of party culture and her mom did use oxy cotton and she was a customer of Carol Ann, very Lynn. She had bought pills from them in the past and She had some trouble with authorities. She had been in and out of jail for minimal things, no felonies or anything like that. But drug related things- and it was probably the worst mistake she ever met, right, but little girl to school that day alone, but the school wasn't far away

and she did I, I believe, watcher partially away, and then that was a lot of time. She power you talk about the plan, and that this diabolical couple has, and one of them is that they've gone this route before they've gone similar routes near this school. You talk about Victoria Stafford's school and they called her Tori on April nine. Eighth, two thousand and nine tell us what this diabolical couple is up to and how they collide with Tori Stafford. They were riding around looking for a victim. It was the day I believe that perhaps had And at one day before that and nothing had turned up, but they they had cruise this route before and

they went by while school with in session, and she spotted Tori coming out Terri Lynn. And Michael spotted her and she was exactly what he had in mind They would have been looking for. He wanted it local younger than ten, with blonde hair and fair skin and Terri Lynn approached her and asked her about helping her find the dog wanted to to see her dog, I think or heard, we thought, but she took her hand and and walked with her straight out into the road and into the car people. There's been a lot of insulation on whether Terry Lynn, New to Tori was when she saw her because of the connection with her her mother, but she says that she did not know

that she had never really seen Tori only her mom and she doesn't she times that she did not know who toy was when she kidnapped her. You say that he finally a kept prodding her before you're. Not going to do this. You don't have what it takes to do this to goad her Terri Lynn into doing this, and I find it odd two and will discuss this after, but that she had sent this in May

previously about her ideas of killing and her ideas of murdering heard ideas of destroying someone. So at least this day seem reasonable that she would be susceptible unbelievably to this guy's goading and challenging and challenging her to finally, do this so Terry, a Tory pardon me was the first girl blind nearest by herself. Did she could spot she talked to about missing poppies and she knew the kind of poppies that she had or cheat asked if she could help identify this poppy or part part me this mother, we had puppies, and would she like to look at the poppies and that's how the premise, the ruse that she got her to drive to the car, but Jesus, just as in,

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check out this week's menu and get your thirty dollars off at Blueapron dot com, slash, murder, blue apron, a better way to cook. Now Kelly. We have little eight year old, Tori Stafford being unsuspicious unsuspecting young girl trying to help a woman find the mother of these little puppies that she's going to the car to look at what happens with Michael Rafferty. How does he respond. And what does he do right away? What does Terri Lynn do what happens soon as they get her in the car while since they get her to the car before she realized what's happening, they have her stuffed in the back seat. Under a a blank under his jacket

And they drive her out, I think, to a field. It's a sickly, a place that wooded area with an open space, and Terry Lynn says that she gets out of the car and walks away. She recalled Terry Tori asking her if, if she will be ok and she tells her to just be brave and then she walks away and leave her to Michael and stand outside the car about three four feet away. You talk about Michael Rafferty, being very excited and probably couldn't believe his luck that this was actually happening so he's in big hurry. They you write that they drive

to a drug house to pick up some percocet to enhance the experience and then drive for quite a while with this girl must have been whore, slide obviously she's pleading for life, as you write saying promising that you not tell even giving a scenario of what she would say. If, if, if they did, let her go pleading for life and she was told to shut up, she was sitting down on the floor boards under the jacket, like you say,. And then, during this hours of rape, pedophilic rape terrilynn put on the headphones and, as you described in the book, listen to something they did have in common. This kind of death, rap from a band called necro with lyrics about death and Satan, and so she walked around the periphery of that field

so he did the dastardly deed and then long young Tory had to urinate. So of course he let her and Terry Lynn escorted her to the field to do that. She saw the blood they talk to unbelievably about this bravery, and Tori said she thought. Terri Lynn was brave and she said no, no, no, no! No! You are and let that screaming child back into the car, with Michael Rafferty for round two, while again she preoccupied herself, while this rape went on.

Without giving too much details, they had also prepared use. A part of this plan was so tell us what they do. Plan after Michael Rafferty is finished with Tori. Well, of course, they had to kill her Michael was unable to do it, and Terri Lynn was the one who had to she hit her with, She covered her head with the jacket and hit her, I think, with the a tire iron yeah. Ok remember now, but when I spoke to claw hammer when I spoke to Terry Lynn on the phone about this, she her story changed somewhat from.

What she'd written and then what was said in court. So uh, I don't think, will ever know exactly what what happened right there, but she did take responsibility for the for the murder and she did say that she's, the one that. That killed her and the way that she explains it is that she was taking her pain away. An letting her di was the most that's uh. The hardest hardest thing I've ever written was with that area of that book. It took a long time to get the words to just be right if I could get it without putting any sort of emotion in it at all.

It wasn't easy right. No, it's it's tough reading because he had said Michael Rafferty said we can't take her back and we can't go back and he said you're involved with this, so he wanted her to be involved. And he was very, very you say, ecstatic again. We only have Terry

Men's account of this, but it seemed like he was ecstatic. Oh yeah, the way she explains it, he he couldn't his he was so excited. His voice was was jittery. They, as you write the bury her under some rocks nearby. I guess find a place that no one can see what they're doing in the berry are under some bunch of rocks or tiny body. Then they leave and they make a pack the vowed not to talk about this again and how are they able to Are they able to carry on with their lives? What happens afterwards and then tell us the right we will lose to in the in the introduction about the community.

Response. What goes on with missing Tori, they were able to keep it quiet, they just is hideous as it sounds to everyone else. They had planned for so long? Michael had thought of it for so long and while it did bother Dairyland, she was able to compartmentalize it and just go on with her life. So it world began to look for little Tori and. The crazy part about all of it is a lot of the suspicion went to Tori's mother. She had a reputation for doing drugs, and people began to suspect her. As for doing something to her own daughter and she went through a lot of hell for that. She was an na no television. She with

founded by reporters. The police was constantly bothering her, but part of this incredible story is that there was video footage and dust police do especially in modern times, is to look at that available. Video footage and what they find is a one women with dark hair, bigger than then Tori's mother Terra and has a big fluffy white coat, and so they start asking people about that, and they also start receiving, tell us about what happens with terra and and a friend that shows terra. This up photo right and what the team to recognize they see it. She says: F, Tory Mother, the

the footage, and she immediately recognizes that coat. She knows immediately from buying drugs over there and she did say she did tell the police and, they got off to a slow start. No one really believed her at first, but then eventually it. They start Skate Terri, Lynn and everything unraveled shortly after that she was really. I think Terry Lynn was ready to just call it quits she won once it everything gone down or what she done and the pain that she knew that that terra toys this matter was going through and and when she saw what she did to the small community. I think she was ready to to be arrested. She was ready to tell everything she knew go back to how this happens, because, like you say, Tori apart me, Terri Lynn is even.

Cooperating not cooperating involved with the handing out the missing posters for Tori, alright and that's what she has to do. That's the brave face she has to keep up. This is a small community Ann and so in little suspicions are conveyed to the police by more than one person that this might be Terri Lynn. So what was the final thing that police realized that she may be involved, and then they bring her in for questioning. And how does that proceed? It's the jack. Once once they start recognizing who she is and they bring her in at first. She doesn't come suppose she doesn't admit to anything doesn't take long at all, and she tells that Michael had

anyone with Kerr and why they did it and how they did it, but except that get that they noticed that get their car? Now, when you talk about the the motivation for her to come to grips actually confessed, and in in that confession, a lot of people would most perpetrators would deflect the blame from themselves and put it on the other person. What is her story, and what does she say in terms of her involvement in the planning, her involvement in the the kidnapping itself? What does she tell authorities at that time when she does decide to confess both the blame on herself and should continue

today that, even as her story changed in different ways, but she she takes the blame on herself and she says she's the one that killed the little girl and it takes some dragon to where it tells she actually comes forward with what, with Michael's part in it He doesn't want to even implicate him night other than saying that you know he was the one that right there, but she takes her. She takes responsibility for the things that she does right off the bat now, with this in mind for people listening in the US and abroad. Not all jurisdictions are like Canada in this, not total immunity, but there is quite a bit of a of a difference in both of these sentences in terms of what the prosecutor low.

Looks at the person that they seem to be focused on his Michael Rafferty and they listen and believe a certain amount Terry Lynn Story and understand for background and then are willing to offer. Her travel is not much of a trial at all, because there's some kind of deal contingent on her testifying at Michael Rafferty's trial. Isn't it yes, she is she she did testify, but She was just steadfast trying to impart on to everyone that she was one that did the murder and not sure why she made that so clear cell. How many times have been? Maybe she thought Michael wouldn't get as much time if she confessed to the

tell the killing and the kidnapping. See when I spoke to her about this book. She was at first against it and asked me not to, but I. Kept talking to Her- and she said the only way she would tell me anything was, if I made sure to say that she did the killing. She was the one that took her life. Well, you also talk about that, even though it was different season, she was instrumental in helping the police find the body of Tori Stafford, correct, correct he, Check them out there and help them look at yes, I'll have things had changed quite a bit and I have order out, but she found you talk about. She apologized to Tories. Family is

well at the trial and on April thirtieth, two thousand and ten. She was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after twenty five years and that's our most serious sentence and in Canada. But then it was the Rafferty's trial and they agree to change the venue because wood stock, they thought they wouldn't be able to get a fair trial. So they held it in London on. And a strict publication ban, this was march. Fifth, it was ready to go two thousand and twelve tell us a little bit about the the trial and some of the behavior at the trial. Some of the more interesting events at that trial. Michael was uncooperative to say. To put it nicely.

He had a lot of outburst and some of their parents and the community at the trial- and there was a lot of death threats on his person there with all sorts of. Right thrown around by Michael by some of the police are to some of the police. In the case, I run back down again And he just continually tried to play the blame on someone else for something else. It was always so else's fault or ours. You could tell Kerry, went into it because you know always wants to deflect some sort of. Why a on to somebody else for some reason and down by the when I was writing this book, I tried to get ahold of him or his lawyers or anyone. I could get no one on on his side,

the family or his side of the case to speak to me at all. But after the book was written, I got some of his childhood friends emailed me and sent me postal letters about how I got it all wrong and he'd and saying much anything like got to Terri Lynn, and it was all her and so his his history of live, then population la that all the way through Cortana inside incarceration, you say, was guilty in all three counts: the jury found him and that was accessory apartment. That was first degree, murder, kidnapping.

And I guess I would be sexual assault as well, but anyway, life without parole, plus ten years. You say that was: may fifteenth, two thousand and twelve. Now you you talk about the postscript about you say you spoke to were, but the she has been in trouble in prison is way,

well since she's been in there hasn't she see her she's. There, then she's been in several fights, she's been violent with other inmates to the point where I think that term was curb stomp to curb stomped or face and knocked out to eat. She has been quite a pill. Do leave everything that Jerry Lynn had to say about her own involvement because of what I it always struck me as the originally. When I read in the book that at trial they they produce these letters from in May, and then she had these very vivid fantasies involved murder, destroying someone

even abducting someone. So when they meet then someone talks, this man talks to her and why I think, there's credence, what I'm saying is that because she says well, I first I just thought he was joking. He was kidding or. They didn't believe him or you know that doesn't sound so plausable to me. That you with, then believe, would be you have these ideas, your of your own, you probably discussed on that's what they had in common. She says no, no and then, when he discussed these murderous things involving raping and killing a child, she just thought he was kidding, didn't believe them up to the right up to a certain point and then she again justifies as you write in the book. She justifies that. Well, why would she be the person that would murder this young girl if.

She didn't, have murder in her heart. Ever now. She admits for the courts, because that was part of this this deal and she could see the light of day someday He couldn't she how self serve. I need some of this information, oh I'm sure my have at it, and it was hard to believe for hard to choose what what could possibly be in jail, because you changed your story so many times that can fit the circumstance the sell it. It was difficult to pick out which nuggets could possibly be please, but I I don't think I do think that she, she didn't believe, Michael at first, because I don't think she possibly. I don't think she thought that anyone could possibly be as sick as she was, and I just think that she was like really know. I didn't, I think that she thought he would be

to check it out. I didn't think because she was had so much bravado and so much violence in her. I don't think she thought anybody could match it now was she has reticent to find a little girl and kidnapper. As she said she was possibly, but I don't think it was at a sum Golden heart think it was fear of getting in trouble. She thought she knew she, how, easy it would be for her to get in trouble. She was known in the area and I think she disappeared them, hesitant because she didn't really want to get in trouble, not because she didn't want to commit the murder and then, when it happened. I think that it affected her so much more than she thought it would and that's why she went forward with the confession. I think

But I don't know I'm not in her head, I don't know, and after all the the top big talks he did and you know see what she violent there's no way around it, but she that was bred into her as as a little girl see. He knew not much of anything else, but that lifestyle, but I think look in saying that happens is that the Tory, I think it may have I'll, send her a little bit. You've spoken to other inmates and other serious criminals and killers before so. This

white. Despite the other, you know, assaults while she's in prison. Did you see a discernable difference in the person that committed this crime and the person that you spoke to in terms of for at least realization of what she had done and remorse? Did you sense that I did? I really did her insistence that she didn't. She didn't want me to write about her childhood, because she was afraid it would make people feel sorry for her. She, I don't need anybody sympathy I did this. I deserve to be where I am. I don't deserve anything less than to spend my life in, and so I feel like she does have remorse.

Because so many you know criminals hard core, evil people don't even have that much, but he does at least I think he realizes what she's done. You know it's what we didn't talk about. Ten I just want to let the audience know that part of this part of the story that we kind of glass stove is that there's some interesting stuff that happens where Terri Lynn is actually in jail, while this manhunt for these two people are especially looking for the woman cuz, they know it's key to everything to looking from the woman for the v, footage, Terri Lynn, is cut her hair, the neighbors notice, some. The neighbors called some. Some of the neighbors are actually videotaping because they're so suspicious.

No there's acrobat error area right. Terra has said to the police and then said: listen people quit focusing on and me it's you know, go out there and look for this. My daughter, you know so the poor woman was hounded then that it was the stepfather was a was brought in for questioning with you know with polygraph and she was submitted to a polygraph and then very interestingly. She ran out after a couple of questions because she thought to recuse. Tori, so the They were very lucky. There are very lucky that Terri Lynn was arrested, that that other people had come forward and said, I think, she's the person. In this view, the tape and also just the idea that when she was questioned she didn't lawyer up. She came clean and otherwise

No one would know the details of this. Certainly Michael Rafferty is not going to be speaking to anybody about what happened. Is he likely now now. He's under the impression he'll get a lighter sentence eventually, but that will never happen little Tories, mother Terra, really made a big turn around. After this there were, a lot of people would have fallen apart and we went deeper into drug addiction, but she changed her whole life and became a doula she's wildly successful and clean an proud of her. You know that's a great success story out of when usually stories don't have any bright spots whatsoever yeah. She helps other people bring their children into the world right. How beautiful that yeah. We didn't talk about to how big this story was in America. This was featured on the

because most wanted. This was a big story. This was a big story in Toronto. Would stocks of small place? This was a big story. Her face was out there. People. New. The story didn't yeah it it rates all across the world it. Okay, Australia, everybody heard about it. I told her that too she wasn't aware of that. She wasn't good one hundred and three days missing. You say in the book: uh huh well yeah and change that community forever. As you say, It did, but you know it's also cleaned up a little bit and then from what I hear that,

but some of the neighborhoods have been revamped and cleaned up. The drug culture is slowly moving out to. Further areas yeah was interesting how much this drug was involved in this story, You say with terra and that commonality- that's how small this community was, where terror was buying drugs from the Mcclintick's. That is scary, ironic and and that eh But really did know everyone, and I was a good thing It turns out that in the long run, yeah uh huh a good thing, and we didn't talk about two. As you write in the book, the testimony from her school teacher that described her that last day when she last left on

call rang at three hundred and thirty and first day that you was allowed to go back yeah and with a butterfly hearing from her. So it's a very touching story. Kelly, really captain heartbreaking details for those that will be interested in that just incredible. Horror graphic I like I like to warn people yeah yeah. Well, I think a lot of people there. They are not novices so, but I guess the warning is appropriate. I want to thank you Kelly for coming on and talking about sorry thank you have some other things that you do you write about

prison reform. I will tell us a little bit about the woman condemn dot com. Tell us a little bit about that. Please that's a blog that I I've had for about fifteen years, I interacted a lot with the women on death row in the United States and I blog about it. I blog about the issues they. Praise and letters, they write things. They tell me their cases and then I block about other women accused of murder and major cases. I have periodically I deal with men on death row left Doctor Richard Ramirez. For a couple years before he died and Manson before You went crazy and I couldn't understand his letters anymore and sometimes that that, on the blog an I talk about Anti death penalty measures,

and how much better it would be if we had a prison system that wasn't perfect for profit yeah. Some issues someone's will be debating for a while. I'm sure. Are you a little website? You do. Facebook, you have a facebook, page and twitter. Tell us about people might want to contact your look about your other work. You have another true crime book, Shirley, Turner, Dodger, harder bird and my most recent is called voices from death row where I speak to several deaths, row inmates and discuss their cases with them.

And my website is Kelly, been asking about common. It tells about my books and my speaking engagement and personal appearances. You can also find me on Twitter, like right, like a mother and on Instagram, true crime Kelly, so. Great, I want to thank you very much for coming on talking about taking have Inori. Thank you very much have a great evening hope to talk to you again soon thanks goodnight. Thank I.

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