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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers crime, history, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. It is been thirty years since TED Bundy. Arguably this country's most notorious serial killer was put to death in the electric chair by the state of, but in one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine, but there continues to hate it slow and you know it would have never understood. Topic,

aren't all hats on top there, like the top this part of every outfit, unless I've been doing it wrong. That's why I stick with simple words like flow tection. It means the sense of security you'll feel when your new home is protected by home insurance through me and progressive. Also, there shouldn't be a top hat and less there's a bottom hat. Wait is that what underwear is so have an average of seventeen percent on car insurance when you bundle home and auto through progressive, progressive casualty, insurance company, affiliates and other insurers discount not available in all states or situations exist in our society of morbid interest in him and the ghastly way he murdered and dispose of the women he abducted in the 70s.

Many people want to know how a person could do the things that TED Bundy did truly frightening to think of their fellow human beings who possess such dark desires and act out their murderous tendencies on the innocent and unsuspecting. We tend to think of these individuals as in human or evil, which is the only thing that makes sense to us, because what drives TED, Bundy and others like him are not feelings that any of us can we remotely relate to in exploring what might have been working inside the mind of TED Bundy, the angel of the k tricking him to brutally snuff out the lives of so many young women. The purpose is not to increases in not amiss, celebrity or sensationalize his heinous acts, but to shatter any such appeal. The only way to do that is to remember the women and young girls that he killed not merely as victims, but remember who they were, how they lived and the impact they had on their families as well as those around them. They have a lot more in common than being casualties of TED Bundy's, violent cycle, sexual desires. The book to we're featuring this evening is TED, but good evening call welcome to the program hi thanks Dan thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. I just wanted to

introduce you to the audience as the author of this book TED Bundy, but we had you won on true murder. A few years ago with your books are called caught in the act before we study and if you tell us a little bit about that book and the full title of that book and before yeah yeah caught in the act and subtitles colder, a courageous families fight to save their daughter from a serial killer, which is people recall, it was a truck driver who was getting out of his vehicle in the middle of the night talking it in one of those rest stops and dressing up in black and taking knives and different instruments with and going down into the communities nearby and looking for unlocked doors to go into and search for for women to to Murda a family in Chelmsford Ma Massachusetts

open to hear some noise late at night, a couple woke up: the Father went into the daughters fifteen year old bedroom and so this giant man and dressed in black with a knife over his daughter before anything could happen. Father ended up tackling this this man, who is much bigger than him and subdued him until the police got there and they found out that this guy had done this to a the times previously and and killed and killed women in the same fashion. Yes, and the the full title that is caught in the act. Yes call call in the act and it's subtitled how courageous families fight to save their daughter from a serial killer which which this gentleman was in. He had three victims that were that were known on, so he was just. I guess he was just starting out then his his in into serial killing, so this family intervened and stop save the daughter and probably saved

who knows how many lives, because they captured the serial killer in the home. Yes, that was a previous interview. One true murder suggest people recommend people might take a look at. It have a listen to that now for this book, the angel of the K before we start about going through some. I guess interesting things that I hadn't read before or were brought up much differently in this book and this examination of TED Bundy. Why did you call this book TED Bundy? The angel of the case. Well, I was looking for various titles, obviously Dennis so many things that have been written about Bundy and the past in an obviously in and recently there's been a renewed interest because of the the big movie and and other other social media things that are going on with the thirty years since he's he's been put to death. So I was looking for an interesting title, something that would Would stand out an, but it would interest people to look

but because I know a lot of people are well past who young people who were even younger than me- that don't know too much about TED Bundy and I'm going to rely on movies, which sensation lies a lot of the facts and they don't get into all the interesting details, sometimes that that a book does, and I wanted to find out what more there is, because I know there's so much more information available now than there was in the past. As far as minute details about all of the girls, all all of them have various websites with their friends. Families have thanks posted now when they talk about the lives of these girls, and I thought that was the important thing and not just to detail the grisly crimes that the Bundy Committed, which people most people will like it and to know about. Let's start off with some of the origins of TED Bundy and to talk about his grandfather's,

Samuel, towels influence so tell us who Sammy will Cole was and then some of the characteristics of his behavior. Before we talk about more of the influence later when he was adopted by John Culpepper Bundy RON tell us yeah, I mean when will Cal's influence. Yeah I mean, if you know anything about I've, read about SAM Collie that you know an interesting, a relationship that he had with TED, because SAM Powell was known around his, not just immediate Family, but around the neighborhood as a pretty name, The gentleman abusive verbally abusive believed struck his wife, so he was that kind of personality. Where he didn't seem well like, but he happened to be a deacon in his church and if you ever had money, never said anything negative about this man who everybody else seems to dislike Sofasa.

The reason that that money didn't want to talk about it and he was in denial about what his grandfather might have done, or the grandfather somehow did and didn't use him in in any way of verbally or physically and had not yet nothing negative to say about it, because he I was looking everywhere. I could, and he really had nothing but nice things to say about this man who was who, at the time when TED was born, he was embarrassed that his daughter was having a child out of wedlock in it it was a stain on the on the family, so that that was that was a big influence. When TED was deceived early on and keep your readers. The listeners may know that TED was deceived early on whose parents really war is grandfather's, pretended to to be his father and his actual mother. Who is pretending to be in a sister for a while. They try to get away with that scam and so there's a lot. A lot of family dysfunction that was going on early on that you can see my

have made a young young man feel not not normal. We can say that before we talk about how we learned to vote specifically about his his true parentage, you to use right about that, it was known- or at least you read about that- the grandfather tortured animals and we have a porn collection and a big porn collection, and we will, as we talk later, we will talk about what Bundy had said about violent porn, as many of the fans might know already. But let's talk about the big coin collection and the torturing animals information that he found yeah I mean I found just a couple of references that reference. There wasn't just one and I do list my references that that that indicate that the grandpa the same Powell, you know did have a collection of pornography that he he shared either openly or

it had found it and then observe them himself. But it was known that this deacon of the search had this this collection and then that attracted TED early on- and I know ted- did talk about how this I'll turn influenced him later on him in life and life is concessions while in prison. How much that created his feelings, but a lot of those confessions that to be taken with a grain of salt. Obviously it was the end of his life and he was looking for for some reason and that may not have been actual or not. But pornography itself was something that the Grandfather Father did have. And some of my what what's called large by a large collection for some, might not be large. But it's it's that I did have a pornography collection of some kind TED had access to it

may may not be unusual and some families, but for TED he indicated that this has this affected him growing up when he became when he turn into puberty came along in the end of the middle school. He started to have some some issues socially with the other children and was confident with women. So it it's hard to to know exactly how that influenced him, but he did observe that he did have this collection of that. That TED did have access so that's that's, there's not much more to it than that other than what TED said later on in his his his confessions. While he was in prison on death row now, according to what you found in again, there's conflicting information, contradictory information, but from everything that you found. How did he find out in particular about the true nature of his?

parentage who his parents really work yeah. If anybody who's written about him well, he may have different opinions or they made list different ways that he found out about this from. Being teased by cousins of his that you know he. He wasn't that the child- and he didn't know his father- was being teased that way or mother definitely did not let him know so it was something that was that was kept a secret, so it might have been. You know something that was. He wanted to know She wasn't going to give that information so and rule actually believe he had gone down to find out and research himself. You know what his parentage was by going to the location where he was born and then kind of researching and finding out who gave birth to him

again. Even and rules says that that's what she believes and there's no proof of of any of that, exactly how he came to learn now that who his mother had to had had sex with big to have him bring him into this world or something he wanted to know about this whole,

and it's just something that that he never really you know came to terms with, I believe, certainly is in nineteen fifteen and nineteen. Fifty Louise's mother, the and the family moved from Philadelphia to Coma Washington, and you write that body for all seem to miss his grandfather, but for a time they were living with his great uncle jack, who impressed by the because he was successful, was a college professor, which sent his kids off to boarding school, and you seem to have a wealth of for himself. Your you seem to be successful. Yes, but his mother met this John Culpepper Bundy at church, and they were married the next year, as you write and many else, other people have written as well. It seems that TED was forming this. This opinion about based opinion

people based on their success and their their wealth, despite not growing up what we would categorize is poor possible. Oh yes, absolutely, I think, being you know, middle class to lower middle class is not something that Bundy was was interested in for himself. He saw him something something greater someone when met met a relative. His was an uncle jack. I believe college professor probably did very well. Could you know, travel and go on vacation to all these things at his family couldn't? So it was something that he wanted to achieve, have at least have the perception of being wealthy, and- and that was something that you can see Early on and other his life to is how he wanted to portray himself. It was something that he could not afford to live in certain that lifestyle so to to achieve that he would steal and that that that that was something

and he did his whole entire life, petty theft and just getting what he wanted through any means possible. It seems that he was had an affinity for nice clothes. And wanted to present himself as sophisticated and, and you know, middle class to upper middle class type type of a guy and

early on and how he wanted his father, his his uncle jack to actually adopt him. He wanted to be in in that family actually, but it was believed that he actually asked his uncle TED. If you could adopt him, which was something that was pretty insulting to to John Bundy, who is mother and married and and by all accounts John Bundy, his stepfather treated him very well and try to include him in and all the family events and and not make him seem like an outcast as a step child. So it is just something that definitely isn't isn't monies personality, trait that he needed to have that monetary. That statement that he had he had something you write to the team had a juvenile record based on the shoplifting and seating getting and minor trouble

relatively minor trouble, but at eighteen, of course, a juvenile record that state it was expunged. But you say at that time he began peeping into peoples. Windows. Tell me some of the other darker things that he was interested in at that time yeah absolutely Dan. It seems that that was something he had an interest in, and you know he talked about how he was interested in those detective magazines. At the time that came out, there were kind of salacious, They would be a pretty strong, are rated magazine, type things and they had crimes yeah they were featured crimes and they usually violence was involved in that would be l, bloody bodies, and there was something magazine that he enjoyed. I guess 'cause, they combined. You know pornography with with sex. You can't say that the magazines

created that in him they would have to have been something inside him. That was attracted to that for for some other reason, because you, you show a magazine like that to different people, and then I can what he did so you know you can blame you can blame. You know visualizing in singles magazines for the reason for what he did, but he now he's he'd be smart enough to know that. That's that's not entirely! True! It's a pretty complex. You know what what what happens to somebody when they need. Turn into a serial killers have born that way or what influences them along the way, then that's a whole other discussion to Dan, but as far as how he how he got into keeping as it just an adolescent curiosity which is which one thing, and then that happens as well and again those those children will turn into serial killers either. But this was something that did interest him see at the young boy, peeping in the pornography and there's just something that he

we talked about, and it was. It was well known as well, because his neighbors would see him and he did get in trouble for stealing and doing these different things. And so it's just part of what he was when he was a young man. You right, though, that his. Need for at least outwardly anyway, but it his need for normalcy in you graduated in sixty five and then the role that the University of Puget Sound later next year, transfer to University of Washington, and there is where he became romantically involved with the University of Washington, classmate and uses sodium. It is Williams, Stephanie Brooks the girl from California, as we talked about this before, but I like, I don't think people can get enough of. This incredible seems cause and effect here, tell us about this woman and the relationship and

TED Bundy's reaction to meeting this woman. What what he thought of this relationship and what happens in that relationship the end. This is one of the things that name of many many psychologist will will point to a saying. You know this is something that really influenced him and created in an anger and a need to control, because he fell in love with the that this woman Stephanie Brooks as they call her. She was a very pretty wealthy girl from California or family was from San Francisco, and she had all the classic looks. I guess that he designed with the with the along dark hair, being very pretty ok and this they whatever this they had, he wanted more from it and she wanted something differently than what he had to offer her

an when he dropped out of college and decided to get into politics. He started volunteering. I think that the first it was with the Seattle Office of the Nelson Rockefeller presidential campaign. He got involved in politics and dropped out of school, and I guess maybe that may have influenced turning her off as far as he wasn't pursuing an education and career somewhere beyond volunteer in politics, so she left went to San Francisco to be bet with her for I'm leaving him behind officially, you know they've broken up. She she left him and that devastated him. I believe in most psychologist will say the same thing that he didn't know how to handle that rejection, that law still control, that's something that he wanted. That was in his grasp and it got away, and then people think that this is something that really angered him and set him off on a path of.

What he he decided to do immediately afterwards, n rule and egg again, she's got a lot. A lot of credibility with me and and almost everyone else. She believes that at around that time, he he drove to Burlington Vermont and found his birth certificate, including his real father's name, hello. Although we never said that to investigators, that would account for quite a bit. Wouldn't it yeah, you could see how that would set him off to. That would be a definite start because he did drugs, suddenly drive off and drive across country to in Philadelphia and didn't see his parents, and you could see him stopping off in Vermont to actually, you know, find out more and investigate you know: what's what's wrong with me, what why can? I

keep a girl why it might thinking these things, so it might've and decimated. Forget that and and again he never admitted he made it to many things, money. Many to many thinking. He didn't do anything he did do so. It's really hard to to say when he found out but- and I am enrolled no and spoke to him- and I believe she probably had a sense about him, even if she wasn't told directly that this is when he found out when he went to investigate himself in Vermont in the in the area where he was born in that that home for unwed mothers, where's mother gave birth to him now in shortly after which is false. Nineteen sixty nine, the

in Washington again universal, wanted. He met Elizabeth Club for and she's twenty four years old from SALT Lake City, the secretary at the University of Washington School of Medicine, recently divorced with a three year old girl Tina. What I found fascinating was that in your book you have more much more information about this against seemingly normal TED Bundy in a family situation, with Elizabeth cool for not his ideal type of woman by any means, but tell us a little bit. Are you writing a book about this? Seemingly normal TED Bundy in this family said Yeah, even before the sim situation and when they, when they first met, and then you and describe how how they met in a bar and the the the eyes of Crota into the whole romantic setting and then how we swept her off her feet, dancing that night and they spent the night together and then the next morning he made breakfast at just starting from

that it was like you know this. This guy is normal or he's the acting normal, or is he wrestling with some dean he's got two sides, ten, because the night, though, add, together in a relationship that started from that night. Is you wouldn't think it was possible for from, and that would do the things that he was about to do? And you know with a three year old daughter as well, I mean they got they got on like like it was his his own daughter. He treated her so well by by all accounts they were the the the perfect couple he seemed very happy from outside is people who know him friends of Elizabeths, and she just was was all thinking that this is the man. This is going to be the one that someone to settle down with and then raise my daughter with, and it seemed to be going so well at that point, so he ate it. If he is, if the story stuff there- and it would be, it would be one thing but it, but it didn't and it progressed into into what he became

the serial killer, but from that point on this, this is something that that I find fascinating how he could live this life and then all of a sudden. Just just change over into to something else: fascinating. Yes, it's interesting to the to add another fascinating detail that people no no know about, but the parents met and it was. It was a good meeting when he met her parents and he again he was still looking for this upper middle class existence and he was impressed by it. So her dad was a dentist that was appealing to Bundy and her parents liked TED. Unfortunately, when Elizabeth met his his mother,

and step father. He is the tension you right in between the mother and TED was obvious and- and it seems that said well, it was a good example of TED kind of resenting, his more humble roots, route. Hello, yeah notice, absolutely you know his the father being. You know a a cook, his mom a secretary and and it's at the Methodist church, and it just wasn't what he he preferred. I mean they were. They are nice people they fit him so well that that should have been enough and they had enough to get by. There wasn't like they were poor, but he just wanted more. He wanted that that, let's say you know what

this is a is a little bit. You know a higher up, but in his his hi as far as you know, what what culture and and lifestyle can bring, and he wanted that from soften. Obviously, he thought he was exposed more showing Elisabeth his family. He thought that she would be put off by the way he would have been by showing him is, is how is family lived and she wasn't. It was really all in in his own mind how he perceived himself and not how others perceive him, so he he. You know he made it through that because he did not have any problems with his family. He had a problem with his family and that's something that he always carried with them. The reason

for their for their? You know, income and for his mom, for you know not telling him whose father was so. I think that resentment just to continue to grow throughout the years as in adulthood. You write to a credible events happen in the early seventies, that is, twenty four saves a three year old boy from drowning and then really, if we see the second a commendation from Seattle Police Department, I tell a little bit about these acts of heroism, again unbelievable, considering what he ends up being no yeah yeah and- and you would think that this guy, what he's about to do with his life he see a little boy struggling in the water, maybe not drowning, but definitely in in dire straits, and doesn't see anybody else around his parents or anybody else, and he takes the initiative to to jump into this water

and you know just get him out of it. While he was struggling and it it's an instinct, it's an instinct to to save a lot and knowing everything people know about Bundy. You would think that his instincts is is to take lives, First but Harry I mean obviously, if there's a three year old child and not not as typical victim, but he still took that initiative to you know save a life. And in another inside that I found out too fast thing was somebody that's something that he did was: will steal from women steal from their purses and less time than in supermarkets. Probably he would you know when and I looking going to that person take money. So that's what he did and one afternoon he's at a mall doing who knows what? But he actually was we in the mall when he saw somebody man steal a woman's person run off with it and he would think you he would be most set it to the the robber here, but he actually saw this happen and went and chase down

this person that received receive you for that, because he did hold the the person there until the police came by so again it's it's an act that you normally wouldn't associate. You would think that that that that can't be true that that's made up their accounts of this and obviously you got combinations in the police. So there there's no records of that. Any of the sub something happened to him from that from that day on- or this is these- are these are a two different people

working one one normal type, TED Bundy and one that is going to go on a serial killing streak like in the next couple of years. It's just an amazing amazing fact to bring to light to people who don't may not have known this about TED Bundy right, also in continuing with this at least, look like normalcy. He volunteers for the Seattle suicide Hotline Crisis Center, where he meets Ann rule, which they become friends, she's, one thousand five hundred and fifteen years older than Bundy.

We need to receive his first degree in psychology from the University of Washington in nineteen. Seventy two, an again is working in politics for reelection. In the campaign of Governor Daniel Evans. Yeah now tell us in nineteen. Seventy three things seem to have turned around for him and he's doing the kinds of things that are very, very impressive to him and he's rubbing elbows with people, so he's getting the kind of attention that he always wanted. This is nineteen. Seventy threes been accepted to law, schools at the University of Utah and the University of Puget Sound and got letters of commendation by people like governor at with the Governor Evans, tell us what TED Bundy's doing at that time, and definitely yeah yes, yes, definitely

Dennis. If this is fascinating, how he must have had this all planned out. Obviously he got through school. Got it degree in psychology and he's entered, he actually got accepted. He hasn't accepted, which one yet but he's. Either you can go to University of Utah or University of Puget Sound to study law and now he's involved in politics again and good. He goes on this. This trip that takes him to to to California. For what text me figured I'm going to look up my old girlfriend, Stephanie Brooks you would think you'd still be better, but Harry is he goes out and then finds her pursues her and she's very impressed at where he isn't in life years later and she's so impressed that she she wants to continue. He has something else on his mind. You would think that this would make him happy that he achieved something by working hard, get

the degree and and getting the girl at, but he has alternate motors in in in mind, have when he shows her. A look at me. Look at me. Look what I've done with what I can become an he all of a sudden. He just turns on her and just basically just dropped out of her to live with even telling her. Why did they seem to be getting along very well moving towards something, even perhaps marriage when he just stopped avoiding her phone calls and all together, just not not reaching out to her and she's? She doesn't know, what's happening and there's a a brief conversation that they have, that that's been written about where she finally does get a hold of him on the phone and she demands he's upset like. Why? Are you not returning my calls? What's going on and and had monies reply was Stephanie. I have no idea what you

I mean, and then just hangs up on her. I just so you you can't even imagine somebody doing something like that, how angry he could have been with her for the initial breakup that he would do. You know show up on her doorstep and engage in trying to gain her her her love back and then just throwing it back in her face as a revengeful tactic like that, it's just it's hard to comprehend somebody going through all that, especially with somebody that he's supposedly

and in a way that he he he hadn't before so this is. This is just a fascinating. You know psychological profile for for anybody that studies. That kind of thing. I believe it's just just really incredible. At the same time, what was his relationship with Elizabeth and how much did he tell Elizabeth about Stephanie Brooks if any yeah I know they? That was something totally separate. He you know and nobody, nobody know what this guy was going, even the people closest to him. Obviously, you know the the the thought of going through his mind or were well one thing, but to the other women he was seeing at.

He did not let them know about that, so that was that was. That was a secret like many many things and bond his life was a secret. He kept from everybody, he did and he maybe even have other other girls. There was speculation that he had. Other data was going on dates when he was in different times and school. When I was in college- and it is hard to find a lot of these women who he dated to find out what he was like- butt. He did date and he he did. He did go out on with these women and Elizabeth knew nothing about it. You write that about that time, young women in the Pacific Northwest began to disappear by spring of nineteen. Seventy four, what was TED Bundy doing in terms of school and in terms of his career? What happened?

And what were the first reported women that disappeared, yeah? Well, actually, damn it was right after he threw through stuff in the Stephanie, Brooks overboard and then told her to get lossed. This is really when the victims began. The first victim survived, it was Karen sparks, and that was in January one thousand nine hundred and seventy four. She survived a brutal attack. I mean it really, it was it was she survived, but it left her with permanent injuries, brain damage and other internal organ injuries, and it was the first known attack by Bundy there's been speculation that he had other victims for that with the book addresses and their numbers places, I found information at their possibilities, people he he may have killed, but this is the first actual known victim of his and and it began January, right after right after this break up with

Stephanie Brooks and it continued, it was immediately right away. There was another one on January. Fourth, few days later, uh current boxes, the first and she was only yeah. She was she was. She was eighteen. Alright, she was eighty five February. First, he killed twenty one year old, Linda and Healy. That was his first victim that he he killed so right right now the does a spiral going on and it happened that happened very quickly how we started again on this, this path of destruction. It seemed that break up with with Brooks set him off, because he just went on honest breeze seems like about one a month right through the summer, from January, through June,

the Washington Oregon area specific Northwest, where he six women went missing right away and, and nobody knew he was doing this not as girlfriend not not anybody. So this this was. This was something that was a big big news item going on at the time six months, six victims, all in the same area, very interesting in your book. You have person, I've never read about specifically was a Maryland. Chino was best friends with Elizabeth, and so you write about her impress tions of TED Bundy at that time. Tell us a little bit about Maryland Chino because she's important to the story a little bit later, as, of course, Elizabeth importance grows in the Bundy story as well. Yeah I mean Chino know with somebody that you probably don't get too much. You read about her. There are quite a few of surprisingly quite a few video

She's done some interviews that more recently than than in the far past. So these are something that you'll find currently and that's how I found a very open woman who spoke about her friendship with Alisa, and she got to know TED through that that that friendship with her best friend and she found her to be in resting non threatening. He was somebody that she could talk to about politics, which was something that she like to do, and is this fascinating how this woman had no clue about what what TED was like? I mean. Obviously he was putting on a persona now for Elizabeth and for for everybody, what his true nature was. He was something he was hiding, so the,

but she know at first you know with charmed as well by TED, but later on, as the body count starts to accumulate, and there was one eventually, a sketch was done by a police artist, showing somebody that looked pretty much like TED almost exactly and describing a VW bug that he drove. I mean this. These are things that may be a lizard, didn't want to process and admit to herself and what it was Chino who who of like Toll- or you know this is this- can be a coinc. I mean this could be your boyfriend here and.

He is the one that initiated and that you should look into this little more deeply. Think about this, and she is my convinced him. Her eventually take Elizabeth to call the police and tell them that you know what I I think, the ten that you're looking for is is my TED, that I've been dating TED Bundy. So it really is. She really had an influence in in Elizabeth and helping her see. You know what other people are always saying that that she could not it's interesting too, that you you you talk about. The Elizabeth calling forties after at Chino urges her to do so and and yet and she tells the Police- I don't know she calls in three separate times. Yes, first time, I don't know whether the first or the second time she actually tells them hey. This is what the kind of things that he has a

in his car and list those things as you do in the book tell us which one of these conversations where she tells police some of the things are in the car and tell us some of the contents that she lives. Yeah I mean she, she gave them a lot of information. It wasn't just you know, basically leaving your name and your number and I believe, there's a lot of people were calling in saying you know what I like anytime. This kind of things happens. You will get a lot of people calling saying I think I know who the killer is, and so obviously, if she was put on on But she gave a lot of information that you would think would stick out the strange behavior that that he was it now that he was performing even on her that he said that she realized was odd only only later on it at first when was happening, she didn't think it was. It was too odd ally, for instance, on a on a July fourth rafting trip and the

we're together just going down paddling on one of those one of those rafts blow up rafts and all of a sudden and TED just throws her overboard, basically she's sitting on the edge and he pushes her into the water and she struggling to get back into the boat, and he is not assisting her at all he's just sitting there. According to her with this, blank stare on his face is looking off in the distance and she's struggling to get back in the boat an and she just thought it was odd, but she didn't think too much of it until all of these things accumulated- and she confess please that you know what this this guy has a has these tools in his car and even in my car, things like like a lug wrench, is in and and things that he doesn't use for anything because he's not not very handy in that way, but there were crutches in there they were knives. There was meat cleaver. So all these things together just struck. Her is odd and she reported all this stuff to the police, who just

took the information and and said thanks will. I will call you back if we need you, so it was registering you either the police were so overwhelmed with what they were getting. They had to sort through things one at a time and they didn't get to it quickly enough sure, because a lot more women were about to be killed. So it's just something that she she reported yet she continued to date, him which

this is not the odd thing why you with you, be suspected your boyfriend of being a killer, that you would continue a relationship which which she did you are right now in this. Yes, you write in this that two once it was reports of six missing women, along with the brutal beating of Karen sparks and appeared in newspapers and TV throughout Washington and Oregon, you talk about a cloud of fear hovered over the population and any found a similar. Much of this information is that he struck out a few times so that later people came forward and said this was you know that that similar adoption attempt was was ascertained by police? You talk about Bundy working at in Olympia at the Department of Energy services. State government agency, which you write and I'd, never read this before, among other things, was involved in the search for

is missing women and there is where, by Matt, Carroll and Boone, tell us about all this yeah that that that's fascinating to so you figure, you know he's working at it was working at the hotline, for you know suicide crisis hotline before that, and you do you think some people believe that he'd like to be around people under that kind of stress people who are desperate what he enjoyed that I don't know, but he could not have been doing it to help. People didn't seem at that time that he was. He was in that mode, so they had to be something he was doing involved in suicide hotlines well, but then, when he met yeah when he met Carol working for the deployment Energee Services, DS yeah is a steak. Stay a government agency- and you know one of the things he was doing- was involved in finding those those missing women. So maybe he wanted to have a little his pulse on what the police know what the investigators were doing, how most they were getting to solving the crime to. Maybe and he wanted to.

And strange enough: that's when you know him he and Carol and bone met, someone who would be him a major part life later on another woman who was captivated by him in an entirely an entirely different way, obviously because of the river ship they had, but they where they met, and it is it's a fascinating account. I do kind of describe what I've what I've read about about the beginning of their relationship and she had a son at the time. Teenage son James, she was divorced, is not too much rain. I wanted to find out more about actually James at the time and there's not a lot written about a carol. Ann Boone, Son James until

actually later on, is a little bit when Teds in prisons on death row. This son comes to visit a TED quite a bit near the very end, but this is not too much written about bug bug James, yes, very interesting. Let's use this pool just for a second to stop the talk about our sponsor, which is Shutter AMC's networks. Shutter is a premium streaming. Video service super serving fans of all degrees, with the best selection of horror and thrillers shutters, irrepressible and thriving community revels in all things, provocative, evocative and dangerous from bantering, with shutter on social media and contributing fantastic irreverent. Reviews to relishing in member only perks, such as exclusive releases, VIP movie screenings shutter, believes there is safety in numbers, don't be left in the dark alone. You can stream great thrillers, horror and suspense four hundred and fifty nine

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there's so many shows I'm interested seven days. Just won't do it. I've signed up also watch the MC visionaries. U I Ross history of for a shutter exclusive right now to shy. Try shelter for free for thirty days, go to charter dot com and use promo code. True, that's shudder! S h! U d d e r, try shutter for for thirty days, free, go to charter dot com and use promo code. True shudder: s h: U d d e r! Now Paul! We were talking about the very important women in TED's life, but he just met

and start interacting with Carol Ann Boone, and you mentioned later on and death row. The very interesting she's not visiting him anymore, but he ends up the son James ends up visiting Bundy in prison will get you to talk about that a little bit later. Now, with these with the of course, Bundy, moves from state to state an from Utah and moves to Colorado. Yeah. Let's talk about Carole Anne Boone and let's also talk about Bundy. Once he is, is being haunted will say he is being known there. The word is that TED is a suspect, tell us a little bit about that yeah. Well, when he becomes a suspect, it's it's it's it's not something that people are sure about, even the police to

find him when he's first, even when he first captured and caught in Utah, I mean he's, got these tools in his car and he's got this this car? Yes, even in the front. That's now in the back and all these designs that a this guy is doing more than what then burglarizing places because yeah this is this is this is not enough. Evidence had just to show that, but they all had a hunch. He was. He was up to no good, and but there was no evidence, he was obviously there nobody to collaborate, what he did, he he killed all his victims and when he becomes a suspect you know his girlfriend continues Elizabeth Continuous tool to call the police how you said it was it was. There was three three separate times in three diff jurisdictions, when, in Washington and and in Idaho, this color rattled thirty is looking,

German and she's, letting them know that I believe you know my boyfriend might be responsible. His name is Teddy looks like the sketches. He drives a volkswagen and he just still on at this list of possible people who could do this, but he's still not not quite up there. Yet it does it takes. Unfortunately, it takes

too many more victims for them to you know to to to get to him to to sort through all the other information that they've they've been getting. So it's really, you know sad that it it took. It took three different. You know state authorities investigating these crimes to to figure out that you know he was the one into to stop him. So it's it's kind of it's. It's sad that I am in researching this going for all the victims, and it's just it's overwhelming to to look at them and then start to pick up a book like this. Where you can you find out all this information, all these women of just where the young and had their whole life ahead of them very, very sad, and it's just unfortunate. The police didn't have the ability they have today to communicate and into different technologies that that they have, because this never would have happened today, it just all the different scene. If you look at them what would happen with cameras and and different people when this is how they would have found him earlier? It's just a day. I that's. What struck me that this is just should not have happened today. What about forty years ago? It was. It was just a different time with interesting that you

obviously include every single attack. You include possible victims. You include the victims that the basically have been proven, basically from forensic evidence later on and dna, and you know with the skulls, were separated from the bodies. Also, these are confirmations that are well known and you listen to some pop potential victims. I've would find interesting is the of course, the assertion that Bundy killed when he was a paper boy at fourteen. Yes, you've included this in some people, discuss it differently a. Why do you think this is possible and tell about with interesting? Was Ann Marie Burr's father, an information about seeing Bundy on the construction site? Tell us about that. I never read about that particular detail before tell and about reaper,

oh yeah, I mean this was the August 31st one thousand nine hundred and sixty one I believe in the money would have been fourteen years old hard to believe he had a paper route, but as a paper boy I mean you would think it's somebody that that was a serial killer. That was it if you believe you're born with this is, higher early on it. It should show itself in some way of some attempt some sought some action, and this this would be in line. That you know. Fourteen is what is said in and he has access he's. You know paper boy, he is. This is something you can look into. How did you know who lives there doors windows an this? You know this young girl went missing and you know TED Money is in the neighborhood, he's a paperboy and even Ann rule and believe that this was possible that he might have been. He might have killed us eight year old girls in Tacoma, Washington

and, as far as details go I mean she's she disappeared, and but the father of this young girl believes that you know TED Ted. Did this and obviously, many years later, you look back and say: look like this TED Bundy was a young child in my neighborhood and Michael is missing and had wished was just seen at a you know: local little area there was like a little construction site which had was seen in his father's extrapolated. They you know, maybe he did this and and was burying the body up there when I saw him in a construction site in that pile of pilot Dirt, but there's no proof nothing was was ever found. An even TED Bundy went to to the extreme of writing a letter in nineteen. Eighty six to the birth family saying that you know that the the room is that about him. He did not have anything to do with the girls the parents so- and this was on it on death row, so he would have nothing to gain or lose

by admitting to another crime. He committed it, so some people still believe he was lying was, as he did so often and others believe that this it just didn't happen. So it's really almost something that each individual has to talk about and make you make good in their own mind, because there's no way to know either way what happened when both people, people tonight and other people speculate that it might happen. So it's assessing snow that this possibly did happen, but there's no proof to lend credence to the idea, though, that you can. You write- and I've read this before- that the fifty fifty child was known to TED Bundy in was actually known to hang around TED Bundy and and was a trip, but not attracted to him, but they were playmates in sort of some way and she had even been seen just holding on to his pet lake, so yeah the table straight alley that he could yeah that they were. They were like strangers like that they did. They did

each other well enough to talk and say hi, and he being a little bit older on his bike, she being younger. She would, you know, chase them down the road and be friendly in that way, so he might have felt like you know what is something maybe I can get away with this, because she did disappear in the middle of the night and she was in her room, which was one of those strange disappearances like that and to have somebody known to you To let them in the house, that's always how it works is that people believe that investigators believe that it was somebody known to the to her head access to the house and knew the layout of the house, which he certainly would have, but, like I said it it. Could have been him. We did have the opportunity, and you know what motives they would be besides those those feelings of

destroying other lives that that would that was going on in his mind. Besides that, there's really no no, no way to know that he did that, and I think I said it is interesting and it's possible that he still may have done that, even though he denied it and that there's no no real physical evidence proving it. We have to skip ahead just for purposes of brevity here, but we sure, after for chi, omega for practical purposes after CHI omega after those brutal murders and his final descent into madness and and murder. So many people in in at one time he was obsessed to kill and maim and try to destroy and snuff out. There live

and then you talk about in the book at some length about all of the various things that he did say what he did confess to what he did allude to the various confessions, even right up to the very end with Doctor Dobson said some things at least they have to be considered. Important Stephen was shot the author that wrote the book with Bundy about Bundy had a lot of things that money had said and has been published and known. Tell us a little bit about those confessions and what they told you in their entirety. What you can deduce from some of those

well, all of those confessions and yeah yeah Dan, and they were they were still sold. Many especially at the end I mean I grew up when I was growing up. Ted Bundy was in jail and a lot of the stuff was coming out about what he said and what he did. They were looking for more bodies, I remember just thinking that, and people reported he was just making these things up, to prolong, try to get a stay of execution to help people find bodies instead of you know, avoiding being executed quickly, but there was so many things that he He said, and I it's frustrating in a way to research- a lot of that, because what he said, a lot of things you said couldn't be proved I mean and and all the victims that he had, that he listed the information about them. There's nobody else that could tell authorities what happened, live in him, so you had to rely on on his his words when they knew

that he was lying about a lot of lot of the different things you can. He confessed to killing people, what women that he didn't kill. We knew that they knew that he killed certain women that he didn't talk about. He didn't give any details at all about what he did with these women. Where they were so it's very frustrating trying to put these things together, because there are so many victims and several dump sites and Sometimes the the head would have been removed and so there's no detail of of how the head was removed, where some believe he took them home to head home with him. Grizzly is that sounds and then bury them in another side. So I do try. Yeah my thing on my hands on a lot of that information- and I do list everything with all the bodies of found where all the victim or how they were handled by and but did no real

way to know what he did, because he didn't confess to everything. It was just my new details and he left out the larger pots of of everything what he did with the women way dispose of the bodies afterwards, it just wasn't enough information and I think that's that's what he kept from from authorities, because I think you know he thought that you know what I'm gonna get in a little bit at a time, and this will prolong my death sentence and but it just wasn't gonna happen because the the governor of Florida was not about to let him you know be in charge of his own death. This way what they were going to set a time and when the

said your time's up, then your time's up. So it's very frustrating for me to find out where all these women whirlwind with what became of that. That makes sense. It's interesting that there is again a lot of speculation and he brought the heads home, but you don't get so much confirmation for some of the stuff. It's it's. I guess there's an inference, certainly, but you talk about actual confirmation of some of the things that he said regarding posing make up dressing up. Tell us a little bit about what you're writing a book about that. Yeah. There were a couple of times. He did admits that he would, you know, spend some time with some of the bodies he would go and visit the multiple times as they were. He, how do you come posing and then sometimes spend the night with them in the woods

actually sometimes yet even admitted to having having sex? The necrophilia was a part of the ritual, but so were you know, shampooing any missing abroad, shampoo to shampoo their hair and apply even apply makeup and nail polish to some of the victims he mentioned. Melissa Smith is one of them and and WAR Amy who were victims of his, and he described that yeah. I went there and I would put put clothes on them as well, because some of the victims were found with clothes that did not belong to them. So he had so he would be doing these things and he mentioned it. You know off hand that he did that like it was no big deal there's a certain times. You would mention it, but it wasn't something he gave in great detail. He would just mention basically what I did without going into any detail and

obviously he might have been doing this all along to many of the victims, but he didn't admit to it besides these few cases. So you go to assume that these, if you had a proclivity for this kind of activity with something he did to many of the victims and not just the couple that he mentioned so it just. It just leaves a bad. Take him out to get us like you wonder if he was going into these dump sites after the bodies, but it would first drop I am in he was carrying

and with them in this way. It's just something you do you don't I guess you don't want to think about, and maybe you don't want people to think that about him either because he didn't, he didn't offer much detail at all about the activities with even the beheadings how they were done in which you know which ones are carried out where it's just it's just grizzly to think about, and but obviously you know sorry that's their job and they just really couldn't get in and get it out of him all the information that was needed interesting. You write in about an I've, read this before but more detail in your book at the trial in Miami Carol, Ann Boone and Bundy become very close and her and her son actually moved to Florida to be near Bundy. Unbelievably, despite the information that she was hearing reading and must of known, I mean.

Tell us yeah more about Caroline Boone and what happens with her and he yeah. Well, she held out hope that you know this is this is not her her Teddy Vincent, how she must know deep down it was, but she she she stayed by his side rule through all this right up and right up until right. Up until the end I mean it is something that it it's hard to leave with all the evidence and all the victims that you know she would stick by him in a and obviously they would. They became so close that if you want to be with him, she moved there her son, but he also decided to propose marriage to her turn during the current court, and it was. It was legal because he asked her in front of a judge and her accepting it, and

in that situation was made it legal, legal, now, legal, marriage for them and what was fascinating was that they decide to even go ahead and try to have a child. Somehow they, even though conjugal visits were not permitted at the the institution where he was staying in Florida. They they found a way they had had a guard. Who would turn his back for a lot of the inmates for for certain amount of money, an would allow the in and the woman to conjugate, and this is what TED Bundy did he had. He had money and he paid a guard to turn turn aside one afternoon and maybe a smaller one afternoon, but it was believed that it was at some point she she was impregnated. By TED Money in the prison with the God who, not like his back turned and she became pregnant and had a child. You know nine months,

nine months later rose rose. Boone. That's a fascinating chapter that I do detail. What what went on in the prison was believed to have gone on and how these inmates no collected money for for this kind of activity was, but it's pretty amazing, it's not surprising, but it's. It's still still amazing. I think yeah you're right. It's a boone died in two thousand and twelve, but the daughter roses whereabouts have been kept secret and no one knows where She is probably luckily on her behalf yeah I mean you would think that they would be investigated. You know trying to get that story either, but whatever, however, she did it where that she changed her name moved out of the country who knows where, but it's fascinating, that no one's been able to find her. She hasn't come out to want to speak or write a book or do any of those things

and I you can understand why. But you always think that you know somehow some reporter can find out and then get the truth, but it's just maybe the respecting her right to privacy and it's it's going to be an awful stain on a family to have that kind of legacy. An you know. It's just it's fortunate that they've been able to stay away from her and fortunate that it wasn't You know if it was a male child, you would wonder if he would be born with the same kind of affliction TED had and if there was a seer. Killing going on with. They presume that you know what TED Bundy's childhood friend his son is responsible. So it's just one of those things where we're glad that. Is hopefully having a good and normal life you write to up to as many as two hundred letters per day from women fans writing to Bundy and he corresponded with many of right up to the very end, two

up to two hundred letters a day yeah he was. He was a celeb. To a lot of women it, and even today you can see how they're still a fascination with him in a lot of women too, I know many that are interest in the story, they're not in the grisly details of what he did, but there is some snow fascination that still continues to linger and a lot of myths about him. That you know should need to be debunked because- we used to trade. It was probably not anywhere near what he was like in real life. As far as his ability to you know gain women's attention. The way people think you did I mean obviously Elizabeth was somebody didn't seem to fit his profile. Maybe he he saw some weakness in her that that he could he could benefit from

an exploit, but a lot of the times are just doing the research. I did a lot of those people. The women that survived attempted attacks from him described him in ways that were not flattering as far as being a stammering. He couldn't speak well. He had trouble even actually a lot of the times, some of them and thought he was drunk some of them smelled alcohol on 'em. So and that's another thing- that's not talked about often just how much he drank this really, no way to gauge that he didn't talk too much about it, but it was obviously something that he he drank a lot. He was always at the bars and he was probably he was probably drunk when he made these when he killed these women. So it's really fascinating to know. I wish there was more information about how much alcohol is drank watt and where and how that influences behavior. If you needed it

get through what he was doing or being being drunk, something that that made it something that he could do more easily? It's just just not enough information out there. It's just unfortunate, it's fascinating to read about all these women's particular cases of where they were attacked, where, where some survived, where like in the sorority houses, where do there were witnesses to this at first, they didn't even know what it happened to their roommates, but it's even more fascinating for the the stories that you have included here, where the victims narrowly missed the clutches of TED Bundy, you know either he was too drunk or they said they thought something that they felt something instinctively was off, and so they didn't put themselves in the same situation of the other victims were. It is fast

need to find out that everything about his mo was found out from these people. I'll be it sometimes when it was far too late by the reconstruction of how he did. Things is now known and chronicled in your book, along with other people's books, on how exactly the rules he employed and how he was able to do what he did you as we talked about in the introduction for your book. This is about the victims. Tell us about some of the research that you did and some of the people that weren't so well now

phone that you did get a chance to speak to well, a lot of my research was done. I didn't speak to anybody verbally, but uh. There was some communications going on because a lot of these these women in their friends I mentioned earlier, they do have different sites, memorializing them an waste to contact the person who put the information on the site, and it was just fascinating because they talked about things that the women did and wanted to do with their lives. What they majoring in or what their personalities will like and what do when they got to school. What they wanted to do and I get a lot of movies so young to that. They really need to have that to some of the most. You know, seventeen years old and you know, and in high school someone to couple in junior high school. So it's hard to get a lot. Information on on

someone that young they really haven't done too much right. It was enough to at least list every woman who you know was a possible victim, even the possible victims. I I listed because there there is been has been a number that people believe he's responsible for for for for making these women disappear and not knowing what happened, because they just they vanished and there's nothing. Nothing found so they do believe bondage model side went through, and I listed each one of these as well, and he even named some victims that police said he couldn't have done it. He actually lied about some of the victims that he did have. So I mean it's just something that I wanted to make sure all the women were. I could get as much information about them as I could show reader that they're not just not just victims of this guy they were. Actually you know when up to become

mothers of their own grandmother Sunday and it's just sad that they never got a chance because of because of Bundy, and certainly the outrage to of things like the public display of of marriage proposal to Carol and bone in the case him defending himself and then, of course, being able to cross examine victims in the court room to be able to stare them down and to and to laugh and treat the saying, especially in the beginning, with with a lot of disrespect to everybody involved. It was really very interesting. Four, when you write about TED Bundy in the end to desperate to have somebody, listen to him, desperate, to be involved to help out in the potential bids to be able to avoid execution where, as if he would have admitted or pardon me, if you would agree to a plea bargain, he would not have been executed, which is a very interesting psychological statement. Isn't it.

Yeah, I know that- that's that's fascinating. Is this that and- and it's all accounts of that is the case- that he could have actually gotten away with his life. But then he was too at the time at that stage, maybe of the trial he he thought he could get away with and he didn't want to settle for life in prison, which is what he would have gotten, but to be. You know put to that. I don't know if he actually thought they would go that far an but the deal. Wasn't it wasn't effect he could have played out, and I just maybe he just believe that don't want these other cases were going to. They want to get to me eventually an they're going to get Evan to stick, and I want to put to death anyway, so maybe just thought he would roll the dice and try to get off on some technicality of some kind, but

but yeah. There was a deal in place to to keep and keep him off death row and he decided to represent himself in court and and and and try to win the case. It's crazy. That sounds of all the victims that were lined up against him and the only the few that that use and concerts at the time was just the only one on the capital offense in Florida and your you put on death row. So he was gambling that he took a big gamble and lost it's interesting to you. Talk about the rule that his mother Louise had in his psychosexual development. That would say, or is his his development as a as a child and then a man. What did she think about these charges that she believed it

and what was squishy there supporting him. What what, as you write, tell us about yeah yeah, I mean that. That's that's something! That's I thought was kind of heart rendering because he was a mom, a typical mom and every since you seem to daughters to the son of hers and even with a sheen thought he was guilty or not. She believed he was at least a good good boy who couldn't of done these things in her mind he he wasn't this this raging serial killer. That did these things to women, and but she stayed by him the whole time even through you know, right

until the end of me, she was he was. He was there for him and telling him that she was as good boy and that she loved him and it. So it's kind of sad because she did speak a little bit about it to the press. She didn't do too many interviews, but she she did. She did some and it just comes across as it as a typical sad mother who who's currently their son could have done these things, which is a lot lot of the key issue here. One zero two of the cost and a lot of times it's it's it's the mom and it is usually sometimes in the dead, not dad being abusive, that that it is, it is kind of not the cause but do you see that more you see a supportive mom, maybe to support of overlooking things and not getting him some help, maybe, but she she loved him and that that showed and that's a whole chapter on on her and and the relationship that they had. We met

again very interesting. I've never read this before about James Boone, Karol son. He had come three times previously in the previous week and he came the final evening of TED Bundy's life. What was tell us a little bit more about the relationship. Yeah I mean it, it's on, it seems, have come on out of no where to go, and during the course of his life you don't hear him mention very much and all yet during this time, when he's about to how to be killed in an electric chair. He's he cost of coming around in and it seems like TED's gone very. He doesn't have a lot to do a lot of training at the end of the last couple of days and James was a very frequent visitor there at aspen. I think it was three times in the last week. He and

this gentleman named John Tanner, who is a lawyer in Florida, and I guess he became like a spiritual advisor so between James and this mister Tanner John Tanner. They they they kind of kept Bundy's mind at ease when he's about to be electrocuted and within days. And for some reason you know, James Bone was somebody that felt something that he needed to be around TED at that time and felt some something for him and wanted to be there. Their saying that we couldn't talk to him but and dynamic. That's involved in that would be fascinating to find out more about. That's for sure. You read about the execution, forty two witnesses, twelve reporters. I thought that was interesting and the execution was

eight hundred and fifty dollars in cash. Meanwhile, outside there's protests. Two thousand people celebrating um tell us about Gary Ridgway, an the idea of a competition will say, and maybe the reason why Bundy View here to help in that investigation. Telescope, oh yeah, well, yeah! You know the Green River killer was in his stocking his his territory. Basically, in there have been people who speculate that you know what serial killers have this uh, this personality, trait they need to be in control. They need to be looked at as somebody who is important and here's the service Green river killer coming along people, don't know who he is he's been active for a long time and hasn't been caught. So even that itself must have been plaguing Bundy, because you know as many as big

Bundy had. It was all relatively done within a few a couple year period of time, with the gap in between when he was in the in in custody, but Green river killer is is unknown, is like mask menaced by any and and- and it actually is, his numbers of victims went above and beyond what had ninety days. So you some people speculate that he was maybe wanted to stop this guy. For that reason, because you know as making him not look so good in the sense, this is only had now he's going to be put to death and he He wanted to be notorious perhaps, and he also wanted to get maybe get some time extra time before he was electrocuted by cooperating with the authorities in that area to try to find out who this Green River. Ok, you know the whole thing with the movie: they

came out later on. Everybody knows you know. Silence of the lambs where somebody was killer was used to try to find out what this other new killer was going to be doing, and he wanted to get that. That a claim in and get notoriety for, helping and also for maybe for stopping this killer. Who is going to break his his record in the flow of murders cell? It's not listening, how that might have played out. It's speculative and psychology. Major stuff can talk about it, but it is fascinating how we wanted to reach out to try to help he will reached out to authorities. They didn't reach out to him to try to find out who this killer was, and eventually he was caught. Gary Ridgway. We'll we'll know the we,

the story of of a inside part made of silence of the lambs, but the you write about a story about the Red Dragon and Thomas Harris attending TED. Bundy's trial tell us about the book red dragon. And, as you write a book yeah well red dragon yeah. That was a precursor for for of the I'm pretty sure that what I read day at Thomas House was the author and he had he attended a Bundy trial, just something something he must have been interested in obviously, and cry time to crime and emailed a copy of his book red dragon, it was in nineteen, eighty one novel and obviously that's the book that introduced to the character Hannibal Lecter, so he just Tom Harris is happened to be this, this great the author of these books and uh

it's fascinating. He was at a Bundy trial and a mail, the mail to copy it to a red dragon to TED. So it's just one of those little ten. Information that you be pick up somewhere and like. Why didn't know that either and how come I've? My maybe I did I just I. I thought I would remember that, but it's something that that's fast. Anyone of those small little details that make big. You know something like like a book like this interesting, because maybe you haven't heard it before, and it's just a tad bit, but it's it's it's interesting! Absolutely you! You talk about the websites that you were able to access recently that warrant, maybe a few years ago or many years ago, tell us about some of that those websites site a couple of those for us and where you got some of the valuable information and where

Some of these people are located on line well at a lot of the information is a do list. My sources and I guess a lot of you even Youtube videos you can find it views are not, and if you know you want to find out a Chino, and how her and Elizabeth they were best friends and you can find some of these interviews though, that would done that. Maybe you didn't when they happened- the MPA too much attention, but now with social media exploding. You can actually find these these videos and interviews, all in one area and they just did the numerous and then yeah every authentic. So you don't have to worry about. You know things that you read sometimes and not accurate forward interviews. You get to pull information, you get to pull. You know what what people directly saying, and you can even read any of the looks on their faces at the saying that so you can interpret them and in ways that you can you can when you just read the read about them

so specifically sauces. I mean I don't want to list anybody, but I do list made the sauce and I used in the research for this book and recommending any one over the other. It's did justice so many and obviously it it took a lot of you know research but isn't of websites roll out and that's why I collected them and put them all at the end of the book in the bibliography page where I all the sources are cited, some of the more I can say about that right. Now I want to us. Thank you very much. Poland are for coming on and talking about your book TED Bundy, the angel of the k, thank you for those that might want to look at other work of this work and other work. Could you have a website or Facebook pages they might be able to take a look at? Please yeah, I do have a website. Paul was not one auto dot com. Also Amazon page. I have. I have a lot to pay

Should I put a lot of information and interviews that I've done on on that uh that as well so that's available for people either? One would tell you a lot about the books and the things that I'm doing and have done. Absolutely and you haven't another book murder without motive being released this year as well. I was actually released so back in two thousand and six and that's Thrillkiller Buckeye Electronic book at the time. So it's it's gone. Now so I wanted to have an electronic book available, so thrilled killers with the title of the original book- and I just

is the title- a murder without motive was the subtitle of that book. So I'm just using that and it's the ebook that's available now, for the first time with that thrill killers, murder without motive is available as an ebook. Absolutely that sounds fantastic will have to have you back on and talk about that fascinating book thrill killers the times. Thank you very much Paul an idol for TED Bundy, the angel of the k, it is been Sasson dating you have a great evening. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Dan good night.

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