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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, Deasey K every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the more shocking, an infamous killer, who crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer than asking. Good evening. This is your host dance. It asks for the programme to murder the most talking killers, untrue crime, history and the others that are written about them on the morning of April, two thousand and two ex residents of the hamlet of ship

wickedly, Delicious, treats, are waiting for you at your neighborhood Shoprite's open today and pick up all the candy favourites plus bring home the ingredients to make some delicious Halloween surprises with your little trick or treaters visits Shoprite today add an ontario woke up to the news that the bloodied bodies of eight bikers from the Bandidos Motorcycle Gang have been found dead on a local farm. The massacre made headlines around the world and the shocking news brought a grim light to another. Why is quiet corner of the province? Six Bandidos bikers would eventually be convicted of the first degree. Murder of their biker, there's, like other, outlaw bikers Benito, portray themselves as motorcycle enthusiasts, who are systematically misunderstood and abused by the police as well as feared by the public. Now no vivendi, those were anything but simple. Motorcycle enthusiasts. However, unlike such biker gangs, as the held angels who run sophisticated operations, the ban details were highly disorganized

prone to Patty in fighting and even engage in sabotaging fellow members. This is the story of other than deed or self destructive over one very dark night as good Seeing as any crime novel, the Bandido massacre takes us inside a crumbling brotherhood, bent on the trail and self obliteration of the book that we were featured this evening is the Bandido massacre. With my special guest journalist and author Peter Edwards. Thank you. Agreeing to this interview and welcome to true murder, Peter Edwards, let's go to be here they for him. Thank you very much. This is very, very incredible story and I think our audience merrily. We have a lot of people in America and abroad. So what I'll get you to do a little bit is maybe explain this because we feel Porthos reading the book, your here shed in Ontario you her, I own a station and but for most

people, we know the greater Toronto area, no matter where they are in the world, so tell us where the proximity, where this all occurs, where talking about London on we're talking about shedding we're talking about Keswick, but we're talking about Tron to take us at least to the geography of where some of these things occur. Before we get too far into this, really killing took place was about midway between Drano in Detroit term right on the off justify four hundred and one. So that's candles busiest highway, the guitar chapter of the Bandidos was the one involved in the massacre and they one of their members, lived in a tiny Please call Diana Stateless Station, which only had a hundred people and that some button wait. Drano in Detroit right now replace actually here farm there like as head of the family.

The highway but term secluded enough at something could be done, that other people can see right Now what we're talking about that this mass murderer, heard on April, eighth, two thousand and six, but for audience take us back. We we really do do exhaustive examination of biker culture in Canada. For those that don't know really, the hierarchy tell us a little bit about the background of of the health angels and abandon those where they sort of originate from him and tell us just a little bit about the history of the canadian chapter. The guinean chapters of those by gangs especially bandied shows that this beer imports to the story and behold the angels have been locked into a street were with the group, called the rock machine in Montreal and that have gone on for for about six years and there been almost hundred people killed in that suit was

they're generally a war. You know people being shot blown up disappearing, so there the angels were winning the added. The other rock machine was basically a group of drug dealers. The carnage together to form a day to train hold ass. They hold the angels when they saw them, losing they reached out to be banned. Heroes who worry her will respond did really I'm internationally known, biker club, based in mostly in Texas, that's where they got their start. They reached out to taxes for support and what they did was folded into the band egos and they hoped that there would hold off the whole range of them. They all the angels. I'm kept pounding on the mandate term hereby round the time of the massacre. The abandon those have been driven out of Quebec end. Material one firm, the interior bandy. Those were the basically rose to the top.

Because everybody else was either dead or in prison. So really was the group fun paper, they look good, but they were really tested, and they weren't really that strong now to set up this story as well for So people don't know that the Bandidos are the number two outlaw biker gang in the world and, of course the hell angels are the number one, and that is that correct. You definitely and Oh mother, always there what the outlaws have never been the topic. I've never been gone so there, the em, they're kind of a survey- every group, the Hells angels, are a lot of people. Think that that's what everybody aspires to be and then the Bandidos were started up. Vietnam, war veterans they got going in this- excuse the Hells angels roots, go back to Second World WAR and veterans. Coming back from that right now, the now what was the status of the Bandidos in two thousand and six and save in two thousand and five in that

The you know not that many years ago, what was their status in terms of full member chapter? Sears in Canada and where, where were the only chapters in Canada, tell us about that and tell us what the status was of this chapter in Winnipeg Then they literally been emptied out back like the buildings of agreed, stop pounding on them if they would fall in Quebec and so in any way is interesting because the deal was applied to prison. Well, as on the street to himself by them driven Attica back all the fundamental became important, but Ontario altogether had them firmly. Three dozen members, not that many Manitoba was trying to I'm trying to get you There is a lot of flood about a minute over, but it's not that organised empty dandy, those their sign, opening to ample things together and taking it up with it.

So, at the same time, the baby, those Manitoba would term they weren't really recognized and they were looking to Ontario for guidance and onterio. Just didn't have the smarts to give it to them. Now, there's there's a little more background to this as well that we find out later, but we might as well say that there are established that there was not a there was conflict. Between the Winnipeg. You call it a probationary chapter and then the Toronto chapters full members. If I'm not getting this incorrect, now There's something about dues owed like again. We've already set up this a little bit in the synopsis that this is about teddy in fighting so tell us what the relationship was is between the Winnipeg probationary chapter in Trono and some of the things that they may have had an issue before we get to a couple of conversations and and when the ball starts rolling in this is very very deadly direction, not really

the the Manitoba chapter they were supposed to be deferential to Toronto. They were supposed to send them dies for who guardian loose posts to be you taking in money wise in they just weren't really and they weren't they weren't even being honest at the same time they were, to do an end, run around Toronto and go directly to Texas trying to go from being a probationary chapter two being the top chapter in the country and they had a big kind of napoleonic ideas of experiment. And they re decidedly chronometer right now at the Texas chapter. What was there? What was interest in Canada and what with? What would what did they have to say about the situation between when a pagan draw? What was there? I take on the situation in the text frustrated with all of them, really heavy after nine eleven

It became a lot tougher to cross the border. It became difficult to to come up somewhere, where there was expansion and actually see what was going on meet the members. People with criminal records that we had a lot of trouble crossing the border either. We that meant It was mostly internet contact and people could just play stupid and not return emails. It's it's sort of bizarre, but the internet played a big role in this, and Texas was good break. Go a lot of them had jobs in the oil industry a lot of them we're part. Something that grown out of you know real military basis. So these are people who knew how to take orders who knew discipline. He knew how to actually do things and the it generally came to see the Canadians's. Drug using video idiots for lack of a better word now tell us about the first off. I guess you can tell us about the

the crew, the no surrender crew and tell us just introduced the characters, because that's what this is all about as it is these characters, as opposed to another group of character, so tell us about the no surrender crew who was involved and out one by one, give us a little bit of background on these people. Men than the one that term he's gonna worthy of the most attention, although you probably growth, is worthy of the least respect at the same time is We tell us day. He was then in his late. Fifty p M long time Outlaw Baker, but none of the big clubs wanted them sound the alarm, take a look at him. They didn't want to be near the hell's angels. Had them had tried to kill him, There is a feeling among some of angels that some people are too crazy to be doubled. Sympathy, but you just get rid of then, for you, then you lead category heap were a lightning

Fulton, his vest, which was his way of saying that he had he had killed and gotten away with it. The feeling was that he had excuse me killed someone who would kill police officer in that that had given him a pass that he was kind of on the he had an inside track to some of the police through. Through murder, and that they were giving them a bit of a wide berth. From a very very unstable drug user, Nazi Lover really bizarre things that even in the Baker Road were considered. His too strange saw himself is very very who work for you and him and huge gun collector tens of weapons and he Didn't take care of his guns, but he had he had weapons all over the place. Hidden all through his house, he had been hidden behind tablets in the trough, troughs sort of everywhere:

dangerous gaiters, another one that Jimmy plans. He was not a full member. He was not fit for the bakers because he was jewish and jewish and trying to get into a chapter with over the Nazi lover is pretty strange reality. I think you just playing it. I think it's more of a fashion thing for him, there's another guy, George, just some. He tow truck a very popular his dying cancer and didn't want to be alone. He he wasn't nothing all about the guy another guy, George Caracas. You certainly some greek emigrant kid who was murdered, regular players in a baker, and he honestly thought that term by the queen who get cleaned up the entire club- and he was briefly canadian President end them here- rebellion. But the Texans like him because he actually was solid, there's a guy John we shuddery boxers just as nickname he was a young, her factory worker, every solid guy

a good boxer, not a great boxer, but a good boxer, a ton of heart, not a thinker but a real heard, tat the person and he was very vulnerable because because He thought that someone was his brother, he do anything for them, and so Khalistan could manipulate him There's one day, a movie repose. Oh, he was a very, very tough guy. He was a survivor of the baker. Biker wars, Then the jail time was bitter because nobody visited him when he was in jail. Another guy for learning was looked him. With the very very needy guy. He had them a dragon. It's in the gambling addiction used to them actually fallen the trauma Son newspaper and asked for them for sports course late at night. You know in the procedure the pre internet tat because he wanted to keep up on his bed some likeable, but the kind of elite,

sure to go. There's another guy, I'm pulse monopoly. He read somewhere between four and five hundred pounds in them. One of his friends said that he is basically the club, because he would he wanted women and who else was going to get them. Wasn't that, after doing anything about them terrible only third ago, another guy, Michael Trotter, he was he wanted out of the club lotteries guys actually one another, the club yeah yeah yeah. I think he just needed a title. He needed to be part of something and he wasn't that active doing anything he barely gotten into the club when he got killed. Anyone it out. So this wasn't someone who, who you'd really fear that the ones that describes that's the Toronto chapter. Right brightly when a big ones as well yeah had entered a distant one thing to as well. When you talk about Palestine too, because if not necessarily written in stone, it does happen,

Jamie, like you say, is jewish, which is kind of unusual. They liked him because he had money and he could they could borrow money from him. He yeah and you had a nice them townhouse that people can use for party exactly but he knew what he looked like a baker. They got there but I had waited. There is both go everything as it would you imaginable calloused I too, as is part of this a little bit you either or is it not only easy in need? That's your emails on that supporter and as some interest in that, but it also and they semi do so. You say that's a little bit in the next as well. You earlier legislating anyone who wasn't him. He. So there was one Christmas party where he threatened to shoot a disc jockey for playing a playing block music, and it was our because the wives want To dance and they love, this stuff is being played, and then he told the guy

play more Leonard Skynyrd or you can have a bullet in you and they can reckon night like the last and dance to the further southern rock that he wanted to them. But the Europe that we simply crash the gay pride prayed like he actually crashed it, we're leaving them Nancy flags and who knows what cooking in his mind? Do you also need to do that yeah, but the very angry guy did he sing the german national anthem? You know sort of burst out when he's stoned and sing it then, on the other hand, he could be kind of charming like when he was dried out. Go to bake sales and buy a whole bunch of pies from old woman in the area, and they all think he was great for a little while well. Well, there is a balance. Isn't it got? Some pie bought some pies there you go that counters everything. What does it say too? As it is, we ve got to make sure that with did the audience really understands all too that this guy was rejected by biker gangs like these,

so these people want to belong to an organization and not all of 'em are possessing of a certain charm, but we're talking about Palestine, be in fifty eight or fifty nine years old at this time. So this is this plays into. I think what happens of course, and of course, he's the you know the major, character in it too. So maybe, but every their expanding into anteroom is stolen, one like they were taking they further through the through the doors open, in two thousand frequently to and two clubs were scrambling to get country full of Ontario. They were, they were taken all sorts of untested people and they still wouldn't take this guy had been around for one slash. Four century I mean he was, would be like. The NHL goes from three thousand two hundred teams, and you still don't get a tryout It can urban stoneware your dinner, the odd I think was well.

You know you'll be able to explain to the audience a little bit later. That plays into this whole deadly scenario. Later now, now weeks before the before the two thousand and six massacre here week for them, the bandages national, secondary treasurer Louis any Reposal, as we mentioned, was upset with the probationary chapter in Winnipeg. He said that he wanted contact at least once a week, and this were talking about the emails proposal was contact with contacting Michael sand him, who is president of the probationary chapter and send him tell us what he said in reply to I think this is all about. Obviously, is very important. Tell us what he said in response to this. This. This request for contact would send a very briefly

it like you, bloomer and then he bloom off, and he three them like any other in the yard. The odd thing about Vandam was that he had been in military. He actually had been a police officer, and he he he thought that he somehow was was better you know the weird thing is it in this culture? That makes you a lot worse, not the military part but the police part, and so, if they had done their due diligence that they check this guy out there He never would have gotten them within ten miles of a clubhouse, but then because they had been sort the drunk and stoned when he his name came up. They took him in here. He was a very deep. Regional guy, who pretended he had black belts in martial arts that some of them it didn't, even exist, and he invented martial arts and made himself the grand master said he is a bit like dirt, Stanza unthankful, YO justice. SK. I am only too long fancy bought himself, but he he talk down to report

The proposal was a real biker pursued them, I'm serious time in repose proposal part of the baker was repose, whether from indicated around with he wasn't the biggest one physically, but he was the guy. You actually would put the boys in you in them and feel good about it. And so proposals noys being talked down to, and I think he got a whiff that this guy was an idiot on the other end of it and that bothered him well, you say is that he said he says I'm not available and he said: stop calling the brothers homes and families I tell you, I really don't don't even bother me. Don't bug me yeah. This is the sort of on this came of age to get someone who's inertia love through the other one who's, not really even a full member. I mean when a pig

sort of in their world didn't even exist, they were just you know. Maybe they get in, maybe they wouldn't, and yet this guys talking down to a national executive member who, who done serious jail time- and you just don't do that now, two days before this killing Kellestine Ann and in Cameroon, ACORN bandied or have a talk, and this is then Cameron is, is incarcerated, and so what's the conversation about tell us what that conversation, did like and what was it about the room for manoeuvre shakespearian from that the website. Them then deal with it with today's master dot com, where you can hear some of the conversations forgot got them from court records, but equally cod that something was happening. Telephone told him telephone number visually spell are there going to be two sides, and you want to be on the right side.

Eight corn, and it's almost like out of Shakespeare. He he could see what was happening, and he let his brothers from run a walk into the trap, I mean he could have them. A boxer had been very, very good to He could have worn boxer. Instead, he played stupid him at work. Boxer walk right into it term frequency shocked, but he didn't do anything then pull the other people out of the fire in them. I think for Ukraine's future mean that something that they know a lot of people learn. Ok and really impressed by your job is supposed to be the stick up here. You ll run for president your brothers and he let them our trade into a trap, any contact with boxer hours before the murders and he they counted. Seventeen love you Bros in there in the conversation, and yet he never went said, watch out. Don't go. Be careful, yeah incredible that yeah, it seems like there is a bit of a joke.

Some of these guys are busy lovey brought more than three times run for your life because you didn't get it. While I object ACT, I do often cover some books that are dealing with monsters and jeez! You know these guys really are organized crime bikers, but we don't think of 'em in the same way. But in this way they are very much the same in terms of the mobsters always say that the best friend comes gotcha, and yet we are able to release the two friends, ITALY. So that's what we is illustrated in this story too. There is a caution to those best friends for sure. Even the whole range of ITALY, they pump up a lot of their own in Quebec, sure problem killing. The Baker Worth a lot of it, was injured. You know, wasn't one group against the other group. That's incredible. I remember the Qubec murders that really got everybody's attention in Canada. You know they were you know they were about. There was numbers like this as well, weren't they eight or nine.

Somewhere around yet they gotta to five. You know the big one with five, but the long term You can't even around the Ranger Little Little Leslie, I think it in a way makes sense, because with these guys, I know me dealing with them. The biggest thing is: don't betray them like. If you don't want to do something, if you don't believe something, if you're not comfortable something say it flat out, don't don't be sneaky about it and it I m talking doing enough for a new book in his his worst insult is to call someone a conniver. Europe you're with them, and you say I don't do this, I don't do that. Don't tell me if you don't want me to know, and you know then, then everything is fine, but if you fake friendship, big brother heard and then turned on him. That's what sense that some off, and so I think you when you look at it in that context, then betrayal is betrayal. Is the thing that will get you killed?

you know, betraying someone being on the other side, won't necessarily get you in trouble. 'cause, it's clear cut who you are and they can avoid. You. Well, no one guy from from a health angels who knows where the undercover cup lives who put him in prison and he asked him. You know how and with what is this. I thought you guys hated the young recently said. No, the guy did a good job. He said who, who the guy would hate would be the year really looked down as those that would be a member of his club. We set him up with a car. That would be the real ran, sure yeah sure I think there. I think there is a mutual respect where These are not getting families involved in. I think that would be. I think that very important, because we've seen that we've seen police take it to a very personal level, bring the family involved in and of course, nobody wants that right. Another one of these three worthy. They would want to say publicly, but they agreed The police, Emily Genome traffic safety humming they wanted

traffic cops out there. They don't want idiots, you know, leaving around on the highway and endangering them. They don't want drunks on street corners. They don't want for breaking into houses a lot of it. Just like you and me it's just done them. He has something. To do things were all differs. Now explain the introduce the Winnipeg probationary chapter. Four, please an end for the audiences as well as a long time. Listeners will know. I reside in winter right now and I have for eighteen years also Winnipeg is one wild place, and so I'm not so surprised because we've got this is the murder, capital, Canada. Many years running, so introduce this probationary chapter and I found it very interesting after reading coverage of this a few years ago, getting more and more detail about these characters here in Winnipeg, it's funny 'cause. I was

Superman. Think artifice, like their supper, windowpane failure that made this burden pretty interesting to me anyway. It really is wild West like it. So it's just. You can when he used the phrase organised crime generally. The problem is justifying the organised I'd like this type of crime and to tell organised one person with them with when the picture was Marcel aware of Vienna, he kind of an odd guy because he was a very, very good mixed, martial artist, but he didn't train very hard, and so he gave a lot of people really good fights. Didn't we met many, and yet you just think of the thing job where you can practise a bit harder at. It would be a mummy you know like. Why do you want to be a meeting? And if you get, I have to get in the ring with someone like for that butter bean guy. You know really tough for him

I wonder if you get enough to get in the ring with him and you've got some form of real champions. Why not train hard so that you don't observe a whole bunch of punches and I think there was something in that guy psyche where he just had sort of loser stamped on his on his soul. There's another guy, Brett Gardner. He was some kind of intriguing because he. It was very young, he very nice family, really nice parents, Nothing criminal about them seems like a smart. Kid read a fair bit turn because in it trail he struck me as a very bright guy, but he tried to use the stupidity defence the hand here which is kind of a smart guy trained at them and not pulling it off. Uganda Mitchell had spent a bit. I didn't shoot anybody, the young, the native the massacre, but he with the guy. You sat in the fire house and listen to police scanners and the reason interesting moral want Europe. He didn't touch a gun that night, but he says he didn't know better

people were killed in the barn right behind the farmhouse. Somehow did he not know he saw the guns? Come out, didn't you know, and you couldn't you couldn't? You have firm helped like he's the one who I heard some debates on this one, but he's the one who could have made one phone call in favour: everybody's life so bright, you're that that's really what he went prison for this one guy image. You can't see his real name. He had been connected to the held angels very heavy duty guy huh turn, informer very quickly, he's a survivor. He's got a new name. Now he actually trick his wife into going to win this programme with him very, very young which way the which blowing which club blowing, which plebeian I made a fair bit of money selling cooking. It is another one who had struck me:

bright. But then he had a learning disability. We could play stupid when it was some western, his advantage or gotta figure out, but at the very tough guy guy Frank. Neither are you I think, is one of the founders of the bunch because he wasn't a biker at all, and he was just figures like us. Hello, mystery animal who just wondering where it was warm and then them be nice to have open the door for him. He had done prison time, Palestine and Palestine. It said if you ever need a place to stay. Come by. Ok, his girlfriend was there was pregnant, and so he went by telephone house and then he just didn't. He was to take the guy who had enough of prison culture wasn't going to gonna on anybody until when it happened. He just went along with it. I'm stood by with a gun and but never heard of him actually ever doing anything violent. But then, on the other hand, he was part of the group that that the guarded the prison before they were executed, one by one another guy, who

I think I can get real mix. Feelings about them to wait. Mushy him. His name is big deal. He was someone who you really would take seriously. Who could have been not that there's such a thing as a great gangster, but he could been very, very good at being an organized criminal. The view is around the right people. Smart guys discipline to very disciplined. He worked out. He had his black belt around two hundred and forty around six. Three very focused would do things. And I think he thought that somehow he was getting away from the chaos of the Winnipeg streets and getting into something organized where you could actually make some money. He owned a nightclub. He was way way too smart for this group and I think, by the time he caught on that fifty with some of these guys. They act crazy and I think it's just an act and then about three murders in that night. He would have realized,

so these guys are crazy, but it's too late to get out he's already caught up in it and so and he's someone who could kill there's one of the killings that he did it himself just because the other guy panicked didn't the guy away, who suffering more allowances, can a pathetic, but he just put a bullet I'm too to ended too tough guy, and I think he felt them incredibly betrayed and let down and by the editor, surrounded with the person. He probably despises the most of my profound them the former Cobb. These become a little bigger behind his back again with assessing Street term Gorky Bird, which punishes the lack of respect for them. He quit them. He quit pretty anything he could be a house, and the father. He was a theology student. He was a soldier, he was a cop. He tried to get in the outlaws he pretended to be in a whole bunch of martial arts and I'm always

just kept moving on to the next thing and he he was more than one per He said that if anyone ever played a movie will be taken out and the girl plagiarists to stand and find out like, even even after he got that was supposed to be a big spot in the big club. He still look like an idiot and he he cried in court firstly according to carrying his eyes out like a like a scooter. Not would you expect at all yeah yeah? No, not at all now to complicate this. This story, this intriguing story. You have. The York regional police surveillance team had been trailing a couple characters. Jamie flanz because of tell us about the what happen. In summary, the where a man walking his dog found the body and what happened as a product of this, what was in it

She was undertaken by the the York regional police surveillance team, Peter. But we're having some technical difficulty. Peter just dropped out of the conversation when I was in a question and he lost the signal, but I'm sure he's going to reengage, and then I will have a back on. I just asked him about the York regional police surveillance team that had been they had found a man.

A man was walking his dog, his dogs found a body on December eighth, a small black man was found, bound gagged and badly burned. In a in a forest area in Durham Region in Durham County, so the corpse was all that was left of this drug dealer named Sean Dowse. Those was laughing alive as he exit the cab late night on Saturday December second, and he was to attend. The party at flans is townhouse in Keswick, which is outside of Toronto. Uh, now again, which we spoke about plans. His father was a senior partner at a prestigious Montreal law, firm and die. Nickname was Goldberg. He ran a small computer, consulting business on tack on site tech, support for business

and he was jewish and, like a Peter had said it seemed I did. There was any with no real financial economic motivation for him to be in this gang, so it was to be deleted in life. Certainly, we still don't have Peter Edwards back on the line, I'm hoping we can still have him with about half through. We haven't spoken about again the surveillance team. We haven't spoken about the actual murder. Here we have Peter back on. I saw the man eater would learn to screw. It can happen going to happen anyway. What I was asking asking you was about the York regional police surveillance, initiative as a result of a man walking some dogs. I talked to the audience about this on December 18th.

Found a small black man, bound gagged and badly burned. A corpse was all that was left of a man named Sean Dozy reported drug dealer. Now he was lasting alive as the exit at a cab late night on Saturday December second, to attend a party at Jamie Flanders, townhouse in Keswick, so take it. Take us from there. What would happen as a result of this- and this is about this surveillance- went on for four months, but tell us just what happened and what they thought was their target and how? How this plays into the story He was one of the things which almost like out of the movie where police had been them, has been following this suspected killers out of Dallas, and they had two pretty good surveillance and it wasn't

Wasn't that tricky really to get these guys on the radar, because the guy is showing up at a party at Jimmy Flanders House in the taxi and then just never run, never was seeing the game until they new. You know that he had been at this party with a baker, place, envy the killer was pretty young, pretty off the charts, and so they there's dna all over the place. Even though they tried to clean up the flans was. He wasn't a racist, and a lot of these guys were ghost was black and he was believed to be involved with someone who another biker who was white one of his family members, and so the guy basically couldn't take someone that he knew her sleeping with a black man with was pretty much that simple they killed him for it? They lured him in and killed him and then them and beat him today,

in this town house in the police, naturally suspected yeah, he won't the townhouse, and so they were following him around and that's how they they actually picked up a lot of these guys arm tape. The hours leading in leaving out of the massacre in We have heard about he got from other people. You can move into now how? How much did they know from that this surveillance? What did what did they know before this meeting? Did they know about the meeting itself? Did they know what the meeting meant, how much the Ontario provincial police surveillance thing. What how much did they learn from this? in the end in those months and then just before this, what did they know? Who that could begin? After him, That's where there's a lot of debate- and I don't think it's code

Be clear I mean they knew there was going to be meeting. They knew the guy who was holding the meeting bragged that he was a killer. They knew that there was tension in the club. They knew that I mean they picked up. On tape that is the killer colouring Kellestine was talking about how they're going to be big changes and that so you can be on one. So you can be on the other side that there's going to be huge, followed in their world and they knew all of this, and yet the saw the cars go into the into the young farmer serve the guy, who is three main killer empty, Nothing. You can argue that we really need is a potentially dangerous made for you This goes but, on the other hand, the the tensions that night were pretty high. There was one cup who individually was trying to: The thing and really couldn't do all that much in the way the firm was laid out. He just couldn't couldn't get an eye on a really now of the desert.

Where did they know what what should they have known them? Young hindsight? Obviously they they blew it, but you are gaining night with telephoned the night. They could be murder But the thing is: how much did they? How much information do they gain from the surveillance? In terms of again, you say that well, there's going to be big changes if they had that conversation, if they knew of that conversation and they knew of EL, the stones murderous sort of banned. You know this meeting with win. Take members in Torano Chapter in an isolated place. What is it wasn't a precedent with it is it did? It was at a failure in terms of them not thinking that you know why couldn't they put the barn, your surveillance. Why did they not have enough time to do that? Why did they do not? Why did they do more, and what's your take on, if this was a failure on their part based on precedent based on the information that they had?

then you don't to point the finger at anyone person, but overall definitely was a failure. In one thing: were there with them, each failure on with the telephone had two lifetime weapons bans in yet he had literally dozens of guns in his place, including automatic weapons, and so How do you? How do you get to the point where you doing target practice in your backyard? automatic weapons in you, you ve got lifespans weapons, then how does it come on So I I don't know getting you get all these comments about. You need probable cause to search and everything. I think if someone said one or two lifetime weapon stands that should be probable cause on its own. I don't see why you have to I'm giving a free pass again and it would have any fool could have found weapons at his place right now, amazing. Now there was one person that was sick At least they claim to be sick and they didn't want to attend the meeting. Did they say

to and who convince them to? will attend the meeting and at what, in what way did they convince them to attend this meeting? there were some one day monopoly and he just really wasn't that much bakeries he's kind of a further heavy guy kind of an insecure guy one of his friends, so that he just needed to be around people he weed for, five hundred pounds any wanted at the club just to get his weight under control. I mean he was your trouble walking massive guy, but I just sort of waiting for attack info. It wasn't a big drug dealer, he's just sort of you know guys in the environment, but not really doing all that much. He was feeling very sick. He wanted and he talked to Jimmy plans tried to get out talk to boxer Berkshire. Wasn't it crazy about it, but he's gonna, let him out, but the rest of them and frankly colonel who wasn't kind of

over the map, sometimes he'd be talking like the ultimate biker other times he wouldn't wouldn't really fit in at all. He he- very upset them down wanted him there you wanted to show of forth on the other and he was someone who privately is said, he's going to quit the club as soon as he became a father and he just become a father, the time of the massacre, when I'm one of the really pointed things listening to the tapes is the one point you can hear his son his little son Mary over the baby, I'm crying in the background, while he's talking oh yeah, he left the baby. When I think I killed the system, being with irony to what he says is the Salerno. Like you say he said, I'm a father, I'm out of here. Meanwhile peas, there, like you, say incredible and then he says, listen, you know. If you don't the meeting you're going to get kicked out of the club you're twenty, because they don't you it later They really said I only because you talk to their friends, I'm: u listen! The tapes,

Most of these guys wanted other the club, but they didn't want, was to be kicked out of the club and privately but these guys wanted to leave, and I talked to some former members who they were down upon the because envy them for getting out, but but they didn't want to be told to get out didn't want to be ordered out, and so when they were ordered out the they thought this day and even though privately they wanted to wanted to quit. Now before we get into the actual slaughter itself. Unless I got this wrong again, but uh, what I've read in your book was basically these guys, at least as far as Texas was at least as far as any kind of official order. There was no order to kill, and but there was an ordered it, or at least it was the intention of taking and these guys patches and any kind of memorabilia associated with defending his motorcycle gang. There was no specific order to kill all these people, so they

So what you do say again, this is just about again. You talk about pathetic, is that these people could have just given up their patches and that would have been it right. From the path is, were counterfeit. Coming from the morning we'll patches, a lot of these guys were fighting over fake patches in the club that, in a sense, didn't exist, in Texas didn't want anything anymore and so they're fighting for a bigger piece of nothing. It was and when you said pathetic, that was right on the nose yeah. It's sad very sad now, like walk our audience through the day, in Question Keller. Stones behaviour throughout this is this is chilling before we get to the trial, but tell us about the the event that day how it was done. Who was in the rafters? Who was again, we spoke about who was look out in the car or at least the police scanner. Give us the

whole scenario. What happened, how the the victims reacted again. Very chilling and harrowing unbelievable actually so tell us about this whole event. Gold take our audience into this incredible one of the worst mass murders in canadian history, an one incredible incredible evening. What they call church tell us what the police tell us thing for say they gather up again which he had dozens of them, but few of them actually worked and most of them were pretty pretty cheap, and so they had to scrape the rust off and they had to clean the gun so that actually come to- There are certain things that, if you knew about guns you wouldn't want to follow them could limit blow up on you the when around and got shells and had to clean up the shells as well as they had rushed on them so that they are all getting loaded some of them are putting on glove the they get the trunk

the chapter to come down. It's supposed to be a church meeting, which is a chapter meeting. They can going to have it in the barn hosting plan, which has a nasty fly nazi flag hanging they when they come in there. Some there's someone hidden in the rafters that Michael found them. He was the performer Military member former cop, and he had said he was a sniper. He was up there in the rafters. He had two guns with them. When he was up there and this is the guy who gets very, very nervous. He shook so if you've got an old dusty burn. This guy shakes dust come down, would would have come down would have made a noise repose o, whose very very alert guy, I'm very street wise part, have product of the bikers in Quebec. He had a thought of shot gun. There was kind like a pistol atomic pirates heard again might yet he he reacted quickly and fired them fired up at them at the noise, and he got on quickly that

with this sniper up. There sandom hurry a profess down, vest on, and so he was hit, but it didn't, kill him and he was able to anticipate shoot Scheele report go and kill him at that point. Them you ve, got kind of equal number is that people on one side and the other side, but everybody stand Kellestine headset We kill when we tell them all a thought that that was just third, a tough talk all suddenly sudden. That became what he wanted. A boxer who was the one of the visitors he was. Very very respected he was the one who both sides thought the most of I'm sure that Nothing would have been happy to have him on his side. He was someone, you really don't want to get mad at you and what he did, though, with that I thought, was extremely brave. Was he stuck up for the jewish guy stuck up first glance? I'm Palestine had said that he wanted to kill last. He wanted from to suffer most because he was jewish boxes.

No, he solid. Don't do it. You ve got it wrong here, he's not a rat he's a good guy costing couldn't stand someone them standing up to him like that, can stand someone who he thought was his sidekick. I'm actually com predicting him. He also couldn't stand the idea of the had. You were sky high. Basically a winner yeah, that Berkshire took his side rather than them calloused inside, so that them how that basically cooked boxer. He said do me. First, I want to go out like a man and his phone rang, it was I'm kind of moving to the cell phone went off his aloud answer. It was his his wife on the phone they just had a baby and his wife wanted to know. If everything was already wanted to talk, see,

didn't want to rat on anybody, even though he was in the midst of being marched out to be killed. All he had to do was saying that it wins farm, call the cops. He could have said that quickly enough in the just by seeing it it would have stopped the execution, but he I think, we're through into the Baker code. If you don't them bring in police, you don't them go outside that. He he just said love you feel later in them, and that is it. In minutes later, he was marched out and executed by the person that he considered his best friend and so. When he was dead, the rest were easy pickings. What they did was marked from out one by one and them make them sit in vehicles and then shoot them. There was some. Learn or the new father was a really really really pointed

call them when they talk about his execution, because he he was digging his son his killers to begin to his kid. He he also wanted to shake the hands of his killers. He wanted to some sort of a human contact He wanted something that made it seem less ugly than it really was, and so we want to shake their hands in the wouldn't shake his hand. The you know just shot him. Instead, it was they, I think a lot of them thought that there's only going to be one more killing and then it will it'll, and then so they pick them off one by one march. The mode end. Where some people like to but all the blame on kellestine. But if you think about it, he turned his back on the group seven times to kill people and nobody put a bullet in it. So you know way by not doing if they went along with it coming. He young college boy himself, but he also the gun that night in them turned on him for that

they're all doing twenty five years in prison right now, yeah yeah, the one of the most incredible events in this whole incredible event is Kellestine's behavior, singing dancing, praying very much evidence of his psychotic nature. Tell us a little bit about what what the everyone like with some of these people who you you're. The first word sitting thing and he is perfectly brothers briskly. Given that he enter from much about in the club and yet them he was singing and dancing. He started singing the old german national anthem, he taunted people. Frankly you having a good time, which is he Is he killed? Then he started to whine sort of midway through the murders he talked about, how

I have to do all the work that he called it. The wet work that he had to do it all, and so he was kind of winding as if he was a real victim that night that he was a hard worker I actually talked to Kellestine between the night of the murders and, two days later, when he was arrested. I I knew that he'd. Would have been killed or hidden killing him in their only eight hundred people and I own a station. For when you hear their failure, Baker, murder, anything tell us think, town Then your hamlet, really, then you're a hooker I'd be involved, confirmed this place and he was laughing on the phone. I mean this was less day after he had them taking part in the execution of either already said he loved and they were his brothers and he was so happy as a kid who just won a football game Laughter in the background is the Euro.

That a party to hone incredible. So they put them in vehicles and in. Was there any? Was there any idea by these guys if they would hide these bodies, or this is a public display, we've killed them? It's a gangland, slaying they're going to find these people tell us what course of events happened after these murders. What what transpired in How? What kind of time are we talking about before these people were discovered? And what was the idea for the bike to do this? Was it was it a public display, a message, what what what they are trying to do in with what they did with the bodies hometown things original plan with? dump them in a Hells angel area, and then everybody will think that dead bandidos must have been killed by Hells angels. You know like luckily there and here the two groups of if you don't mix and so Kitchener Ontario, which would be about them. An hour down the road is a very

very strong Hells Angel chapter that had been a very strong students, choice, chapter and then flipped over I'm in two thousand so Galveston's plan where's would dump them all their and everybody will blame health angels and we get off with these. Did he, though some you don't have to worry about a shake? Beer with a theme, one of occurs most expensive curly Europe goes per the young to Flanders. Didn't have gas in it. A could about enough gas to go about them. For over ten miles an hour was it in so they had this guy party of the five hundred pound man in the back of it when they killed the guy? They didn't have am far enough into the van to get the hatch back down, and so this huge boy he isn't really secure and it's in a vehicle that a very little gas in it and planted into a gas station for meeting but term in place.

I'm watching, but he hasn't bothered to fill it up with gas, is almost like his last joke in a way, and so they've got all these bodies in these vehicles in but don't have gas in them in one of them. They're hitting often counters Canada busiest highway, just we're rush hour and there's a chance that the body could go further owing to the road. I mean it his eye on beyond stupid and for what they did was turned off onto the site, road and dumped them all, and the farmers feel so too. There was a plan, but to give these guys, especially Palestine, too much credit for thinking is a mistake. I mean it was some stupid The involved without the Turk Swimming the idea from counting down the road with a guy huge me twice. The sizes the average pro football player you lying in the back and ready to go bouncing under the highway? You know beyond stupid, yeah. So how long did it take for police to put this together and make an arrest then, who did they arrest? First then, the big regretted, the next

in the vote on the website that film of the young and the arrest of Palestine this farm I mean it- was pretty pretty easy pickings, really because I mean well I mean you doesn't Uribe. An outsider to fill the reporter. I could figure the telephones gotta be involved in this, and it is pretty pretty logical to just are watching his farm, and this is a guy who to brag about killing. He actually had lightning bolts announcing. He was a killer in nazi stuff on his business cards. When he wrote a letter when you write people he'd put a little lightning bolts on it too. Sam pretend that he was a killer for the ss. I mean he, so it didn't take you're going to get watching them place and then to move in on him from the some of them have that around them to set up with it

it's going to be the new dominant chapter. Other ones went back to Winnipeg, but it was pretty easy to piece it together. Also what they would please. It was a informer, the one guy image who is involved in the group that did the killing him. He was enough to realize that them this wasn't going anywhere, for he quickly got hold of police policing and went on board, and so he was wired in Winnipeg and was able to to pick up a lot of them on tape when one of the tapes that really got me was that he picked up this guy mushy who I've got. I don't know we respect is the right word. But if I had respect for someone in the Winnipeg group, it would be him and he picked up my she talking about how when boxer was killed. It really was impressive that he, you know when, like a man that he actually laughter telephone, flickering posting with them with you,

ready to shoot him? This guy just laughed at him to say you're an idiot, and even if you kill people, you still every year more than idiot fill them began, a poetic the waiter I went out and mushy picked up on that and was was very impressed. So how long was the investigation in terms of through the recording the covert recording done by am age? How long did it was this that this last for a few reach, but didn't really take too much because them you have hit the informer inside the group the date they also picked up tax. You know talking to them. Uh. You were, they were shocked any any one of the ironic things that says they picked up some texts. You know, there's a sort of the epicenter of all the bandito stuff them this goes for they didn't want them anywhere. That, therefore said was the big question weapon

why it was done or who did it very over what was done or who did it, but turn of the? Why you know the? How can something so big happen over something so stupid end A lot of people me included, thought that there must be something about the Hells angels involved in here. You know that they can't be that stupid and the bandages, but they were that stupid and held angels, knew them no more, about what was going on than the average person in the community? I mean this when Hells them said to me, when I talk to him in the courthouse: was that editor the day when you wake up in your enemies of all killed each other, and I mean they just woke up and were stunned that these guys, who they thought, were there so low level, the enemies rival some self destructive? Incredible? now? What was your? What was your conclusion? After all is like you me I can almost gas, but what did you see as the? Why had they done it

What what why had they done it? What would what was their intention to do and what and of course the result was disastrous, but why had they done it omitted reasons for a lot of them. I mean Palestine needed to dominate people, he couldn't stand being laughed at had to be taken seriously and yet the the women like the more he was laughed at, and if people don't take you seriously, when you're you gonna happen. You ve really got them gotta problem here he was, he was here, considered a fool, no matter what he did and he still is and so hi I think, for him there was a huge amount of frustration. I think I think some of the other ones. The reason they went along with it in the odd thing is that most of the people convicted of murder actually didn't didn't, pull the trigger that night. They were convicted for being guards, so they were convicted for Stan. In bed with rifles as other people killed and they're, basically being part of the

I need another, didn't pull the trigger and which are already for it. First to be murder. I think that some of them were found out afraid. I think some of them thought that they were going to kill me. Other obviously won't, obviously willing to kill nine people standing. So I'm not standing up to them and getting a bullet in me them once it started. He would have taken a huge amount of courage to stand up and say no. This is wrong. Coming they dig They would have been killed where, where they had, the problem was that they were involved. You know for days before that, getting guns ready and that sort of thing, and so it was easy to draw the conclusion that you know these weren't innocent bystanders, but it wasn't. But when you can debate a fair bit, let them if they were legitimately afraid and if they thought that they be killed too. Should they be guilty of murder. The crowd made a really strong arguments that the murders would have taken place if it hadn't been the guards and so guilty do Yeah doin it serve as you

In Canada, it is rare to have that kind of slam, Dunk conviction, first degree murders, not the easiest thing to get in the canadian courts. There's a period of ways of getting it down to second degree and even more lean like manslaughter, but obviously I didn't think there was going to be anything like that. But the first degree convictions were well done and again based on the email evidence, the telephone wiretap, the witness yeah. They they put everything together to have that successful prosecution. So there was you talk about the delay at the eleventh hour and but still it's just a sad, pathetic. Idiotic ironic story: it really is fascinating because you get so close and and. Into the mindset, I guess of these people, so it's quite fascinating, so you're crazy,

Just the irony in the day go the part that I remember the most is the seventeen love you Bros on the phone to boxers. He drove down to be killed sing them to a guy. Who is letting him die into a guy who he tried to mentor and be nice too, and he had had actually told us getting go to don't waste your time, don't be like come alive. The other guys get an education like he's trying to clean this kid up in the well, the kid a priest. Did he let him get marched after slaughter that them the other that one of the part said that would really stay with me and I got to know some of the former members who then that's what kind of how I got pulled into doing the book with some of them started to contact me because they couldn't believe that it was that stupid and they couldn't believe that they thought they were kind of acting crazy and a bit crazy. They didn't think,

They could actually be that crazy, it's kind of when you, when you play a role and all of a sudden the role becomes real yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. There's a certain momentum, isn't yeah Andy and I don't think they cut on. You know that kellestine. This is what he does. I mean this is who he is, and this is where he's comfortable you know like like he does exist for murder and that. You know the guys voice between the killings and the arrest. You know the one day in the middle when I found that he I used the full party mode. I am, he couldn't have been happier again with the king wins. The super bowl are the great cup to fans aren't happier than he was that night and he had just to slaughter date of his brothers. I know it is a situation here where actually never mind. The brotherhood of bikers he slaughtered his own family for.

An inheritance, grandparents sisters and conspired to kill herself the about eight people in its entirety. Family and it's funny 'cause when you look at murder rates about consistent, third or so are people killing people who they've loved we're going family members in the same way was a huge domestic reform. Africa was a huge family fight, yeah yeah. It's incredible! You also of you mentioned your website, but you also are you know I was surprise. Did I mean I know of your work, but I did not know that you had written that many true crime books, you're you're, like the top true crime guy in Canada, hands down very, very interesting cases that you've covered. You know the upper wash case but uh the milgard case was my favorite. It's such an incredible case. You see so much wrongful conviction in the US that it

come to be known that it certainly they can have wrongful convictions, but in Canada we haven't had that many really really high profile cases in the Milgard story, with the movie in the books and and the coverage and and the compensation and jeez it's just. Incredible story, for those people were unaware, aren't aware of your work again You can give the the website for that and and how many true crime books have you under your I'm working on my laboratory, no, like the eleventh, come out. Next them early next year and some it's about a long time, Baker who is in this story from held angels who put in them for decades. That'll, be number eleven p d, the websites them Bandido Overmastered, come and bent. It also has to do they say deliberately speller differently and let it go on and click. The first page

actually see the people we've been talking about writing on their bikes or talking and C Tran Scripps, and that sort of thing, yeah, can a gloomy wavy them The third thing I never forget David and stony man can a country and he lost all his appeal. To think of me one thousand five hundred and ninety two or one thousand nine hundred and ninety three and and it looked hopeless like it looked like he was going to be in there forever because he wouldn't say he was sorry because he didn't do it, and so he wouldn't fake remorse. And I, I needed to find out quickly this scope for real or not, and so I said why, don't you just say: you're sorry, he would obviously sorry for the cap, but he wasn't going to say he was sorry that he did it because he didn't do it, and he with so disgusted that the that the idea that he confessed to something that Didn't do that. He he walked away from me and went back into the prison Becky visiting area. You just look stand.

And I needed to find out is this guy for real or not so I needed to ask a rude question and I just had a huge amount of respect for him as he locked away, even though he was disgusted by my question and then his mother ran in and brought him back out again, but he. With so bothered by, you know that murder, in his name being connected to it when he didn't do it, that he would have spent his life in prison rather than give a false impression. They offer remember him with them TAT, Larry Fisher, the guy you actually to do the murderer in Vegas that point them. His name has been kicked around a fair bit and I asked David in prison and what do you think of Larry Fisher and I thought he could come angry quotes and what he said was that them he deserves a fair trial and that David knows what it's like to be wrongly accused and so well Fisher should be fairly judged and I thought well, you know this is, I know, the set of problems, but he did some really really classy. Noble thing said a lot of people don't know about them. They offer member him

Try asking him right after he got out on what what do you like about, but you know being on the other side and he said being able to look at this and look at everything and not have to look through bars. Again he went to visit me in Toronto at the newsroom and he we went out look side afterwards on to young ST and it was raining and it was kind of a warm rain and David took off his shoes and his shirt 'cause. He wanted to feel the rain and he didn't care if everybody thought he was crazy because he had been. You know twenty, two one slash two years where he couldn't feel the rain and he wanted to experience it and he wasn't going to waste a minute, and so he. When you went walking away to get his arms out to you, don't like he was an airplane or like he was making across and eat it's because you wanted to feel the possible really good, You don't know about that, remove images suggest is really absolutely and any no. The thing is when he had the compensation and they the authorities still

could not leave him alone. They were bothering him a few years to go to come to some hearing and throw thing that he should come and he said I'm not really up to it and they said well, you have to, and then they had in so the injury of the entire thing be. The sort of conclusions were that the mother interfered and if the mother wouldn't of inner, feared and meanwhile the mother wouldn't have interfered, he's still would have been in there. So much diverse yonner, we can think up her uneasy women for her. That kids would be designated anymore, but I mean he'd be dead in young. The real killer would probably done more. I mean one thing: when Joyce Milgard was phenomenal, sticking up her kid, but she also was sticking up for other women who were victims of Larry Fisher. I mean when you don't come pick the right guy, you letting the

killer the real rapist, go out there and do more and he's got impunity. I mean you, give him a free pass, and so I mean Joyce did a huge, huge public service and it's so sad to see people train drag it down to a petty personal level when they should just be learning from her I mean, if it's funny is with Joyce it's one of those things where you really feel that a privileged to deal with someone to talk to someone and. Yeah. I remember you know when I thought about my own personal problems at the time. You know, then they look at choice and I think these, how can I win when she's not complaining Yeah, it's a great full story of fighting a system that still does not want to admit that they made this grave grave error and not an error that anybody can understand. It was this incredible story, so then I emerging from

yeah. I think I got the impression that a lot of kids are bullied into confessions. That really aren't real. You know, especially a lot of first nations. Kids, you have a lot of people have said that done things that it we haven't done, remember David Aspartame. Who then was, oh god familiar, and he he talked about one guy. You can to a murder when he was actually in custody somewhere else. At the time of the murder I mean was in with It was a phantom. It was absolutely impossible for him to have done it, but he just figured is going to get shafted anyway. So why not go well what I have issue within Canada's it responsibly. We have these checks in these balances, but we are much more more lenient to start with, like I don't want to go on and on about it, but we have a hard time prosecuted for murder, one where is in Canada. We have this false assumption that all we don't have the evidence for a murder, one conviction. So you would have to have all this evidence of premeditation. Well in America, it's one minute of premeditation 32nd

to premeditation the driver that went there for the robbery. He is also convicted of murder, and you could say that this is unjust, but I think that there are some well. I think Canada can learn something from not necessarily the harshness of american law, but that there are circumstantial cases that makes sense to juries that they do not. You no excuse, murder, as we often do in Canada. You know you're intoxicated, so it's just it's. It's manslaughter and we're talking about much much less time. So I think that's the inherited differences, but I can't believe that? We have any wrongful convictions with the lawyers you can get paid for by the taxpayer here and in the process. The long, careful process and I can't believe that we're still getting wrongful convictions in this country the one that really gets me in here somewhere

in Toronto is that if you are do a gangway telling me I am about now he's he shot people for clubs, but if you're going to do one, I think that it should be ramped up. If it's done in the public place, I mean to go and execute someone in the evening yeah well to shoot from unknown young street them when people are doing boxing day shopping any of you even really, hardy total total bakers will allow bakers bikers will call that cowardly. You know the idea of shooting from a since the paralyzing of a woman and a sandwich shop in Trono, because he didn't have the guts to walk in and face the guys are going to shoot, and so they

shoot shoot around a bunch of regular folks defining lining up to buy sandwiches. I think if, if it's in a public place, I think that should wrap it up like. I think that that should be young should be something that that contributes. It contributes to the the same thing just do to what it's called it should be allowed to claim manslaughter when you shoot someone in a crowded foodcourt or when you see someone in a crowded restaurant or when you shoot down the street this guy. I'm talking to you now he's it sounds funny, but I mean he's he's disgusted by the lack of have courage by a lot of people now who are going around doing gangland killings, that they don't have the guts to get out of their car. Don't have the guts to walk up to someone plant a bomb and hope it hits the right person I mean it's. Is there killers, but they're cowards too well. We've been hearing that from the mob ever since Sammy Gravano's complained about the it calls on Austria not being the way it used to be. Meanwhile, he's right now on Guard

John Gaudy, so have I you hear a lot of that? You know there's no, there's no more honor, but I don't know there never really was was there? Maybe they never really was, but there is maybe maybe theirs in between honour, encourage. You know like it. If they got to work, made up and do it and any fool can can read from a distance? I mean when, when joke now is that some of these guys would be better for the public, if, when they're in prison, he gave them target practice everyday, you know at least hit the guy you're trying to hit don't hit a bunch of mothers and daughters and in a little kid going to see movies vehemently to teach them how to put the board. Were there when I put a bullet rather than on spreading all these people, you don't have a clue at the dispute about well, you know the thing is: do we do have we have, as I talked to american audience so sometimes uh are primarily american audience. They say you know we have about 110th of the murder rates. That's a typical

American city would have not the did. You can compare exactly you know, but a fraction say ten percent will say for comparable place when a big Say Detroit comparison but the thing is: if you really think about it, what we are under the assumption in Canada Annie. May be true to a certain extent, but for other reasons is that we are a kind there are gentler country we're not as violent and we here, this from connected with violent Americans. You know that baby is like their entire cultures is based on violence at which is incorrect. And yet, if you look at the Vincent Lee If you look at the case of Colonel Williams, you look at the case. The ball was Sidney. Tier Hughes, you look at marked, which or from Edmonton, and now you look at LUCA Mug Nada, we're very, very competitive. Aren't we women are breaker were through me,

other around two hundred people murdered and all the others disappeared, lot more injured, just in the income back, and mostly not even cover really in Montreal. In throw me in twenty or so Hells angels in all of Qubec, I mean that at one point the Baker valence accounted for seventeen percent of the provinces, murders, and so it's sort of like when we do it. We go right off the off the deep end. You know the plate. Canadians just turns aquatic when they turn the switch yeah. No, I think, we're very, very competitive and, like I say I think I think Canadians should dispense with this sort of notion and realize that certain people deserve to be in prison for the rest of their lives, because they are dangerous individuals and we need not try to rehabilitate everyone, because there's certain characters that absolutely cannot be the ability to listen, even a device for consecutive convictions for murder. There is

the actual life sentence without the possibility of parole I'd. I can't I can't see how any political party stop on crime, what they just don't get that illegal things improve records and went off. Who said that the problem is a guy like being the criminal, you know like he's back, that's what he wants to do and felt pretty rehabilitate someone when that that's his self image that he wants to be that's what he thinks is right. Then you know: where do we go from there? what you can never rehabilitate the victims, families because it they have a parole hearing, regardless of whether You and I knowing that, while it unlikely that right, what Robert picked him will not be paroled, but yet still up earlier. So and every time there's a victim either. There's a bunch of waves of them

secondary victims. You know the other people who were heard have lost trust, who've been nervous, will never be the same, and so it's you know it's not like. It stops with one person that it just it keeps on going no he's gonna numbing. Really. You know when you, when you think about it and when one thing I think found the gamma felt bucks, but if people are upset with her with a organized crime. Drug war then stop buying the drugs. You know- and I know it's not quite that simple, but everyone who bought drugs from someone connected to the Hells angel, and come back was contributing, was basically buying bullets for the biker work. I mean these guys don't operate. A vacuum men they don't force, the drugs on people in one of them said you know we don't ram it up their noses, they buy it from a pencil. I noted that doesn't make the guy innocent, but it.

Sometimes we try and make all the crime on the other side of the fence. You know, look what they're doing and look how bad they are, but you don't have a drug war without people buying drugs Well, you also don't have a drug war when you know again his idealistic, but I think it's it's irresponsible that we didn't learn anything from the first prohibition of alcohol and Al Capone. Imagine what what would be like and society body would be like of alcohol was still selling booze right. We can also use the treatment you know like in them. He begged me when I hear people were drug problems and there they gotta here Jim Siege, waiting. Time for treatment or in Toronto, where there are doesn't them kids, who basically work in these high risk communities in their path, two slash three of them are being laid off. I mean that the money would be better spent. Helping people find better things to do. There's some people like California,

is not going to. You can spend all the money you want. You know the surveillance on him he's still not going to stop him yeah, and I think the thing is that you know and I'll just leave it at this statement in terms of my position is that I really, I think that the sooner we try to regulate all drugs. What will happen is that we need to separate regular society, whether it's a cocaine user, the first time or a cocaine user. That's been using it for years. The reason why some of this bike activities normalize, why women will go out with bikers while they see an attractive well dressed biker with an expensive bike they see the allure day, they see their electors, charming, b their charming guys that are outlaws. You know, so I think the lunar are the we separate regular society from being in Contact act with any kind of organized crime via drugs. Then there are,

we will always be an element that will be an organized crime that will be gangsters that will be people who are violent. But when you take the drug profits out of the equation, and then you take the contact, an the glamour and the normalization out of it, you're going to have the pirates of the world the outlaws, it went into a small, innocent town and rob the bank and killed whoever was got in their way. You're going to still have those people, but you're not going to the collateral damage like you had in the biker, then you have with all of this all of these bikers all of these prospects. All of these people had families, like you say, the you- know the president of the probationary chapter or far apart me, the Trono chapter talking on the phone with his wife. You know all these people have families their children. They have you know so again. So that's my bit to your right to somebody

supported organised crime by buying those drugs, but we also have people have to be realistic, think about how all of this works? And I think it's time that you know the drug war is a failure, a dramatic failure and, like you say, if people are addicted to drugs, maybe they should be gay. And the opportunity to get off those drugs, and they got the guts to firmly step out then them and face it. Then we should all be true. Mine and helping them. We shouldn't be saying in a wait another five months, and maybe you can get in I offer in a minute sounds like back, but the lottery, guys when you talk to him one on one they're, very, very meaty, and they really want to be. Wanted something that seems like something and they, and so I mean better sports, better community programs better something so when they're one thousand six hundred and seventeen eighteen, they can belong to something that but respect that doesn't involve carrying a gun, doesn't involve blowing things up. For them the

and you get them one on one. You think Jesus guy would have been a good football player. This guy would have been a good hockey player. This guy he's got from reading ability, the sky and found out It would have been good in the military would have been good in business. You know a lot of them. Indeed, they can see it themselves and they just put I want to be in something and they've got kids who don't know who their father's are. We father's couldn't give a damn about them. One thing that jumps out at me too, when I deal with these guys went on one. Is it's a very short list of the amount of who had a good father at home. A lot of them? Don't know who their father's were or the the Father would do it slap him around there's, not a long list of people in Oregon, is crime outside of them the mob, which is a different thing, but a lot of these guys got into it because they needed some sort of you know male figure who could guide them a bit and it turned out to be a guy. He was can money illegally? Yet like it? All that is still you know. There's all kinds of but without hard luck stories, employment. There still is this. Is this

people still chose. Belong to an organization, it's known that they will kill. I mean you know device, It's like anybody. Two joints will cause a Nostra. You can't be that naive. You got to know what's what's possibly in store here, so as much as they it just a sad story that wasted lives, wasted opportunities. You know no sense to this murder at all, but what a great book I'm a great story, and again I can say to so many incredible. They had also sopranos when you see that the surveillance team, and yet they can't you know they- can prevent this from happening room with better for me because for the whip, freedom- and I could pick through search with video and all sorts of audio you before the murder and you think to survive got the stuff. Since you didn't that's like a lock that maybe something bad is going to happen. Say I mean if you still couldn't they it together. Maybe something terrible was was just about to them to go down. Yes, absolutely

call Peter. I want to thank you very much for your time has been very, very informative interview and for those people listening, we've been talking about the Bandido Massa her by Peter Edwards and go to his website that to us one more time the ability to Macedonia, common Benito with Kitty yeah and the ideal. Ok. Well, thank you very much. Peter will post it up on Facebook and I'll, send you a link as well, and if you like, to see for this interview with people, so thank you very much and will be looking forward to your 11th. True crime books will get ahold of me. Definitely when that's going to be coming out will be looking forward to that and you again for this interview. They found himself on the really good. Thank you very much. Two have yourself a great evening Peter! Thank you doctor tonight.

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