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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer, true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. This episode of true murder is brought to you by square space. Space is the easiest way to create a

the full website blog or online store for you and your ideas start a free trial. Today, no credit card required experience, Squarespace at square space, dot com and enter offer code. True, murder for a ten percent discount Jack, the ripper stock to streets of London's east end from August through November of eighteen. Eighty eight in what is dubbed the autumn of terror. However, the grisly ripping of Polly Nichols on August thirty first was not the first unsolved murder of the year, the April murder of Emmett Smith. In the Aug murder of Marth are Tabrum, both occured on bank holidays. They baffled the police and press alike and were assumed by the original investigators to have been the first murders in the series. Were they correct. You

this provocative work of literary archaeology, author Tom Wescott places these early murders in their proper historical context and digs to unearth new evidence and hard facts not seen in over one hundred twenty five years. The bank holiday murders is the only book of its kind. It issues the tired approach of unsatisfying final solutions in favor of solid research, logical reasoning and new information. The clues followed or not drawn from imagination, but from the actual police reports and press accounts of the time. The questions asked by West Corner ones, first suggested by the original investigators, but lost to time. Until now, the answers provided are compelling and sometimes explosive,

the revelations are new information linking the murders of Smith and tab to the same killer or killers, proof that the police did not believe key witnesses in either case proof that at least one of these witnesses working with the murderer new evidence connecting many of the victims that may lead to their actual slayers information on Emily horse in all the actual first White Chapel murder, victim the hidden truth of leather apron and its role in unraveling, the ripper mystery proof of a corrupt police sergeant who forded the investigation? Was he protecting the ripper the book they were featuring this evening? Is the bank holiday murders the true story of the first white chapel murders with my special guest journalist and author Tom?

west. God welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview Tom Wescott hello. Can you hear me absolutely welcome to the program Tom Well, good! Thank you for having me Dan. I appreciate it. Thank you how much we had a scheduled once a pawn a time. So I'm glad that we finally got you on here with this compelling book that again talks about Jack the Ripper but the you have a very, very unique perspective on this before we start to for our audience and I didn't want to call your refer all it just because I don't really know who wants to be called that and Rackley what that means. But exactly tell us your background involving all things: ripper and Jack the ripper and tell us

your background and how, without giving anything away how you came to write this book with this particular perspective surrounding jack, the ripper, sure sure. Well, I personally, and I don't shy away from the word- refer just I don't. Okay, any sort of negative connotation from it. I think for a time there ten years ago, or so it was sort of a fringe you know name people shy away from a bit nowadays, 'cause there's the journal of our field is called ripper ologist and it's a highly highly respected journal. It's also free. You know anyone can can subscribe to it. So I'm proud of that title I got into a river ology back in the nineties, just just by accident. I think it it it's. You know it's as bugs that bite you is what It is a man I picked up a book in a used bookstore, a ripper book that happened to be misplaced in

horror fiction section and is what I went there looking for was a horror fiction book, and I found this nonsense book on the ripper and just grabbed it on a lark and I went home and I read it and I said you know, does it is This really the solution and and, and then I is the burgeoning days of the internet. I looked on their found. The casebook website, which is the ripper website, one of two big ripper websites and Saw there all these other books, so I started checking him out. The library or buying, and and uh- and it was just one thing after another: what happens when you do this? And people who read Riport books will will recognize this in themselves. The more you read the more naturally you're going to learn, you're going to remember details and then you're, going to notice when authors make mistakes or when they get a deep you know, look at it from a different from someone else and you start developing your own opinions and thoughts and ideas along the way.

Next thing. You know you're researching those to see if you're, right and they're wrong. And then that's kind of how this thing and it just snowballs from there until you know eventually, you've got a room of your house, filled with ripper books and magazines and old one hundred and twenty six year old newspapers. And then some point, my case. It was you know. I. My research led me into certain avenues that were new because I don't want to just be there's, a lot of ripper books out there that are crap. That's just there's so many of them that that's just by nature, there's going to be a portion of them that are just a waste of money. I would, I personally think that's probably about seventy percent of the books out there Fit into that category and then another twenty percent are decent. You know their harmless and then maybe five to ten percent. Are you know really? You gotta have 'em books, and so I wanted to put mount that fit into that five percent. Whether I succeeded or

I failed you Know- will be up to the individual perspective. I think I succeeded because the majority of stuff in my book does not appear in other books in terms of how I interpret, and it also new evidence presented that hasn't appeared in books before the the first ripper the first Whitechapel murder Emily horse, and I don't keep her name is ever appeared in a ripper book until mine, so anyways. Are you got that the short answer to your question is I I got into not really by choice. It's just a bug that bit me and I stayed with me and buy. Accident. In luck, more than anything else, I've stumbled on some things that I thought. Other people interested in the case should know, and that's where this book came from. You talk about in this book that you, it is not a typical book in terms of final solution in terms of wrapping up the entire mystery and saying conclusively here is the killer in here.

Here. It is, but in writing this book you also were looking at a different project, so tell us what who you were looking in terms of a suspect, talk about this, while you're at run and tell us about how it morphed into looking at this person to the focus of the project here with the bank holiday murders. Well one of the suspects who intrigues me more than anyone and who is not discussed in the bank holiday murders. All say that up front, but is name, is Charles La Grande. He is the subject of a future book of mine much myself and and fellow researchers. Primarily a lady named Deborah era has researched extensively over the last decade, but he and he has never had a book dedicated to them. This guy tried

also, in a nutshell, is a sociopath psychopath very dangerous. He was a pimp. He instigated himself into the ripper negation following the murder of Elizabeth Stride. He fabricated evidence through the police off track, certainly wrote the what's called the from Hell Letter and was cited by a certain member a parliament as being the man most likely in London, the two have been Jack, the ripper, and yet he he a book about him, so I'm going to write that book, because I've got a lot of cool stuff on it, but anyways. I decided I'm going to write this book on Charles Lagrande, but but before I my idea, This I didn't want to do another suspect book. I never wanted to do that, so my idea was I'm going to start at Square one, the first murder, which at that time I thought, was Emma Smith. And I'm going to research without bias from scratch. So

running at square one and work my way forward through all the murders pudding the grand out of my mind, leaving myself open to any new avenues or interpretations, and lo and behold, you know by the time I hit Martha Tab, Tabrum, the second of the official Whitechapel murders, I'm noticing things chiefly surrounding this character, pearly Paul, who is allegedly a friend of Martha taverns things weren't, adding up in her statement and in the evidence, and so I say let me follow this and I started following this and it led me to the landlords, the guys who really held the power in the east end of London, back in one thousand eight hundred and eighty eight, you know, probably more so they had more sway over the the public than the police. Did that's power, that's power right there and

so let me back to to I started looking at them and, and just kind of I said, wait a minute what what it was supposed to be a couple chapters of a book is my notes and, and all of this were ballooning I'm like. I can't cover this and like to you know ten page chapters. I've got about two hundred pages in front of me. This is a book in its own right and it needs to be considered in its own right aside from anything else. I want to talk about. Those can wait for other books. And so that's that's so I started that's when I started writing the bank holiday murders in a in a fever pitch back in October of two thousand thirteen, and actually finish in January of twenty fourteen just a few months later and then published at the following month. And, and at that time I thought well, this is just going this just a little book. You know just devotees to the case, will purchase and- and it's actually big it's done very well for me. Actually, Surpr raising lease over the last year. It's is performed very well and the feed

I think I've gotten has been tremendous and it's just been an utter joy and utter joy for me. Well, that's great, that's very deserve it too. Let's set the stage here the you know. I know that a lot of people have red, ripper, books and probably a lot of the audience knows of the basic premise: or the story behind the ripper. Ology and the basic story, but really what I found most fascinating about your book is, is how sucked in I I I got into this book due to the descriptions you have of the east end of London in eighteen. Eighty eight and surrounding years- and you talked about you alluded to the- which is very very important to your whole story- is the lodging houses. So tell us about the lodging houses and tell us about the owners, some of the names like John Mccarthy and some of the names of the

lodging houses and how it worked with people that were managers of those houses tell us uh. I want to really set the stage for to describe London at this time what these people were living in a circumstances so tell us first with the lodging houses and then we'll get to the character of some of the men and just the the conditions that these people lived in in these lodging houses. Sure sure. Well, first, let me say thank you Dan for the kind words about about the book. I certainly appreciate that particular coming from you and the landlords uh or I call him the lords of Spitalfields and in my book a certain east end of London, where these murders murders occurred, were essentially a slum land. Not all of it was there were very respectable people who live there, hard working people, but in the lodging houses, just to put it into a cow

contacts that the modern American could quickly grasp. Just think you know the projects project housing in in today. Our society, the slumlords, are the government, because the government owns these housing, they run it and they profit from it, but that wasn't. The case one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight London. The government did not step in and do anything at all for these people, So the land lords were essentially low. Rent businessman who came in bought the old, dilapidated houses, and rented out beds, not rooms but bad might have a room with fifty beds in it all. You know the the sheets. My clothing may not get washed regularly. There they're just completely a in vermin and lice blood and that's what you're going to sleep in And then you're going to track this and you're going to carry this to the next house with you and it

just over and over and over again there would be a communal kitchen with a fire where You could roast your potatoes. Surprisingly, people didn't really start back. Then food was cheap and plentiful. It really was. You know what money you know you didn't really have to set aside too much money for the food. In fact, you could probably get a lot of it free, has your money was going for beer but Ever there is poverty and desperation. There will always be those who who want to come in and capitalize on it and profit from it, and in this case it was the landlords. And not only made money off of their rent. It he's were homeless people a sense you were coming in paying it a nightly das, as it was called to sleep in one of these beds but you are also a sense for stolen property. These people would often I'd you know, say hey Dan. I don't have money for my bed that I have this that I still today. So you would take that instead of you would you would themselves that to the pawn shop or sell it through

pawn shop that you own a lot ' these landlords also under local pubs. And in the east. End of London was crawling with pubs. At that time, alcohol was the crack in the meth of its of its today that's what everyone was addicted to in. EAST and I was the predominant drug. So if you owned a pub boy, you were never out of out of money. And so were these bad men, not all of them. A lot of them were a lot of them, just maybe had less so Peoples than you are. I would but at the same time, the other way to look at it as if they weren't there running these homes. These people have nowhere to sleep 'cause. There was no one else to help them to Salvation Army which, by the way, was given birth by Jack, the ripper, our last. It was beginning just at that very time. And they were just opening up rooms and they stay the Salvation Army was born from,

East end of London, eighteen, eighty, eight and Jack the ripper. I brought attention to the plight of the people in the area, and so everyone started giving money to the Salvation Army and that's how I not its original funding and got its footing and became what we know today. So that's a little interesting tidbit, but all the victims of Jack, the pepper or the Whitechapel murderer. You know lived in these houses. And anyone who's read my book or goes to read. It will notice that I discussed some startling. Coincidences is, and I say that with quotation marks, such as that, the you have a number of women in a row who are attacked and or murdered, who all lived in neighboring houses. Two houses on George Street Numbers, eighteen and nineteen you have Emily horse out, murdered you have

My mind's gone blank on me, but another lady who's been attacked and survives, but spends twenty days in the house little followed by Emma Smith, murdered, followed by Martha Tabrum murdered all between November of eighteen, eighty, seven and August of eighteen, eighty eight! So in that period Now that's an awful lot and you say well in a violent area like that, the thing is: is murders were extremely rare in the East end of London When you saw murder, it was typically domestic. It was a man killing his wife, nine, out of ten that's what it was stranger murders such as this were exceedingly rare. In to have that many violent attacks and murders occur so women living in two neighboring houses. I thought ok, that's just pushing coincidence. A little too much

And- and I noticed one character who is living in one of these houses at the time was pearly Paul, which was a thirty five year old, prostitute, manly. Looking husky she was described, suffered from chest comply her whole life, and it just you know basically a criminal well known to the police and anyway she presented herself to the police following the murder of Martha Temperament, told a wild story which they believed at first, but they we came to understand, was a lie and Another thing is is: is she went to the police and identify the body correctly. The body had not been identified yet as Martha Tabron, but somehow she knew that's who was murdered and already had a fake store. Made up, and I thought okay, this is highly suspicious. This is something somebody does if there is if they're wanting to either get themselves or someone else off the hook by casting the police is suspicious

in a different direction, which is what she did. She tried to claim that Martha. Tabrum spent her last hours in the company of herself and two soldiers and uh. All these identity parades followed to try and find these men. Of course they never existed, and that's what I discuss in my looks so then I have the question of ok, who was poorly pull lying to protect and that's what led me to the landlords. Now Paul moves. From that house following the murder of Martha Tamam. She moves to another house. Thirty five Dorset Street and you know within a couple weeks Polly Nichols is murdered, who resides at thirty five Dorset street Polly Nichols being the first of the now of the kind. What's called a canonical. Ripper Victor she's not she's, not the first way chapel murder, victim, she's, the first ripper victim and then the next murder victim, Annie Chapman.

Also residing at thirty five Dorset Street, and so I said Ok! Well, imagine your pearly pool, and now you know what six women I think, we're up to six women either murdered or nearly murdered in less than a year, and you know a mall, and then it goes on from there cuz. She also knew Mary Kelly, the final ripper victim and then possibly probably was at least acquaintances with, all of them now do I argue that pearly Paul was the ripper. Absolutely not. I do not believe for a moment that she she was. I have no evidence that she could do any more than cut a loaf of bread. I know she was also unhealthy. Does did she pop probably know who the ripper was or have an idea yeah. I think quite possibly so I think quite possibly so and that's the stuff. I'm exploring in my book. It's not just another one of those who look. I picked a name out of a hat. I'm going to write a book and make some money, to pure research pieces. What my book is an

because I couldn't identify one guy with a knife in his hand as being the most likely Some associated with I don't in the book with that big reveal of here's, the name of Jack, the ripper, frankly those books think they they have their day in the 80s and early 90s, and you know, the serious students are the case. We would kind of scoff at him. Now there are exceptions. There are suspect books like Rob houses book on Aaron Kosminski which which are afforded a lot of respect. Also a recent thing as a books coming out that look at suspects from the perspective of here's, why this man was not Jack, the ripper and that's important too. I mean, I think, that's that's really important. In my research over the years, I've looked at all the suspects and pretty much eliminate it almost all of 'em in my mind, but there are for a few that I I still say. Ok, I can't eliminate this guy so that he has to stay in frame and one of

things we all must remember to is rejected or may not have been one man, He may have been two men working together, may have been two or even three men murdering definitely an unrelated, but who are? were believed to have been the same person. Does that make sense what I'm saying here? So I can imagine at the time a suspect brought forth to the police, but he had an alibi for one of the murders, and so they discounted him well, let's just say, that murder happened to not be an actual ripper crime. That was a copy cat that was similar and so by providing an alibi for that when he got off the hook for all of them, but he may have been responsible for one or more of the other murders. I don't nest probably personally believe that I think that the five canonical ripper victims were in fact killed by the same man or men, and I also I think that the early murders are related. I think that,

only horse, Melinda Smith, Martha Tabrum and then the five canonical times are all related, possibly even some of the later murders, because the It's just really suggests that that's the case and that's again that's kind of what I discussed in my book and an upcoming books. I will probably go into that in more detail, as it relates to the actual ripper murders. Okay with let's, let's go back to Emma's Smith, because you do start with Emma Smith and you talk about the unusual case again. Really. What this is is this instead of you know uncovering this mystery in saying without a without a doubt, here's the solution. There is a lot of mysteries in this book, so a lot of questions are raised in this and not necessarily can be. Answer, but with Emma Smith, you talk about how the police are notified, that

days after she is killed, and you talk about the decorum at the time for a medical doctor when he would be testifying in public. So tell us about the description of the murder, Emma Smith and how possibly in history, how you been unraveled, how they might not have described the murder exactly the way. It really did happen tell us about that. Well, as far as the decorum of the doctors, the end and an inquest, in eighteen. Eighty, eight and in that time, first of all, the coroner was not a medical doctor. That was an elected position. Anyone could run for the position of coroner oftentimes lawyers would win post and the coroner's whenever the doctors in question, but

he would hold the inquest, the primary purpose of which was to determine the cause of death and to record certain information that could be referred back to later. To kind of just core You know that correlate that information, and so in the case of MS who was a middle aged alcoholic prostitute She, it was bank holiday night, which also for our american listeners. A bank holiday is it which is the title of the book. What that means is like to think of a holiday when the banks are closed. Martin, with their king day present and say Christmas. Those are bank holidays and that's the term used in England so but anyways she. Was walking around. It was just. It was just Easter right at Easter time on a bank holiday all the soldiers would get their pay,

in the sailors, and they would be on leave and they would hit the east end pubs looking for beer and women, and so this was a time to make some money. So that's what she was out doing it quite a ways from home. She had walked quite a distance from home on a rainy, cold night. She was a couple miles from home, supposedly and at some point she was set up on an attack. Now the story she told to her lodging housemates and to the doctor, who tended to her that she was set upon by two or three men who she didn't recognize, one of whom was roughly nineteen years of age. They chased her They abuse her. They beat her and she walked home. As she is she. What we know is that she was in a bad state, her hand to her. She was hit across the head, so bad that split one of three years almost cutting half of the ear off

she had other injuries to her head more important. A blunt instrument of some sort had been in inside of her and ruptured. The sac surrounding her intern internal organs, as well as the area of well. I don't want to get too much into that. It's it's it's pretty gross, but she was damaged pretty badly, Glad bled profusely. She took her shawl off and put it between her legs to catch the blood and she had to be talked in. Going to the hospital back then you know that was a that was just a sheer terror. We don't like going to the doctor today. Imagine it back, then you know when you know three people going to the hospital, one might come out alive. So So she goes to the hospital they check her in the for twenty four hours. She was dead of peritonitis, which had said in an inch

it said into our internal organs and killed her, but she had told the story to the doctor now. The question is wasn't true, because She was a prostitute, but she never thought when she went to the hospital she had no idea her injuries were fatal. So would she lie to protect the so who really inflicted these injuries? Yes, women did that all the time would she lie. To not have to admit she was a prostitute sure 'cause, the doctor, question are you: are you sure you want soliciting? Did you selected this for? No? No, no! I wasn't soliciting ok, okay and the thing is she So this happened at one hundred and thirty am, but she didn't get to her back to her home until hours later. So what I believe him, She was attacked and set up on, not necessarily by three people. She was rendered unconscious left for dead. I believe that whoever attacked her left her for dead, but she came awake and stumbled home

and and then was taken to the hospital where she died. The next day where she claimed she. She had pointed out on the way to the hospital she pointed out to her friends. That's where I was attacked well, the police never found any blood there when they learned about it at the hospital authorities also did not record this to the police, nor did any of her friends. No one reported this to the police. The police did not find out about this until they received the summons from the corner to appear at the inquest and there like at the inquest, for what right? Well, this woman was murdered. And so that police were very far straight one when they talk to the constables in the area. The couple off at all. I didn't see nothing well this They should have seen this this bloody woman walking around from wherever she was at active to her home and then a half mile from her lodging house to the hospital. There were concerts was everywhere, but none of them claimed to have seen her

Don't think they're inspector believe that, but because there were no This is no one was willing to talk and they never got anywhere in the investigation and no one was ever arrested for it, and then you skip forward to August, and you have another, the next bank and you have your next murder. That's Martha, Tavern, Miss time the killer or killers. Absolutely, let me no doubt whoever attacked Emma Smith, whoever it was head of after the fact realize how lucky they were to fight out, that the woman they left for dead was actually live in, had spoken to numerous people, and yet they were still not capture. So I think when that person took their next victim, they wanted to make absolutely certain before they left that that woman was that this did not happen again and Martha's case. They did that they stabbed her thirty nine one.

Does Williams with a very long blade right through her heart so she wasn't going to talk to anyone, but but all going to stop his you're asking about Emma Smith. So did I answer that question or should I order something, and what I want to bring up is an important figure in here too, or somewhat important figure is doctor, Haslip he's a surgeon. It looks at Emma Smith and then he looks at the Martha Tambaram as well and then there's a conclusion. I thought. Very, very interesting. Is the walking stick so First, they have a you, have a description of a blunt interests, so tell us about the blunt instrument, doctor house, lips conclusions and if he makes any connections between the two murders tell us about him and his conclusions of what he finds doctor. He first of all one thing is he: he had nothing to do with Tabor, Martha Tabron. He, whether or not he saw her- I don't know, but he he wasn't the doctor that TIM,

sure that was a doctor Killeen but Doctor Haslip look to happened give the surgeon in charge at the London Hospital uh which? What was remarkable to me is that he was twenty two years old and he was the surgeon and charge at that time that Emma Smith was brought in at the London Hospital twenty two years old, so times have changed. You would not see that today right so, but he you know he look First of all, again a win in the Smith came, and he probably didn't assume her injuries were were fatal. He he only knew what he could see from the outside of her injuries are all in turn, her potentially fatal ones were internal. She was lucid, she was conscious. She was probably not very forthcoming with what happened to her down there. And he discovered that during the autopsy that he performed, but now when he took the stand at the inquest,

He he did not, nor should have been expected to detail every injury that was inflicted upon her, because the purpose was to determine how she died, and he had to discuss that. In the injuries that were inflicted on her. Through her vagina and possibly through an inter anus as well cuz, the skin that separated the two was completely it was it was, it was ripped or was torn, not ripped. It was through just here blunt force, whoever inflicted those injuries on Emma Smith but just great force and presumably with a lot of anger. They real, He wanted to hurt this woman and the so. The doctor Haslip, you know that's pretty much the extent of it other than he appeared in the press following the murder of Polly Nichols stating that he did believe the murders were related. He didn't say why but

believe they were related now. Another characters is inspect Sir Edmund reid- and you also have chief Inspector John W- and you just alluded to it- you thought that had been read found some of this story kind of incredible. Well, what I know for a fact: Edmund Reid was an extremely well respected inspector I think he went. I I get the impression that he when he kind of did his own thing. He wasn't strictly by the book and that would probably rubbed some of the superior's the wrong way and then others loved him for it. He results though, but in the ripper kayson. Obviously he did in the river was never caught, but in numerous interviews. He gave and years later like right upon his retirement 'cause only retirement. Could he openly talk to the public about these cases, so retired. He spoke about them and he was clear on the point that

he believed the ripper was or that one man was responsible for like eleven murders or not. I think he attributed nine murders. To one man, and I don't know that I agree with him on on all those, and I don't agree with all of his conclusions, and all of that but uh what seems clear me is that he did not believe the story that Emma Smith was killed by three and that's the story that Emma Smith allegedly told herself to the doctor into her friends. He did not. Believe that he believes that a single man who we know is Jack, Ripper killed Emma Smith, and I'm intrigued by that. Why would he throw out there statement from Emma Smith? What did he know? What did he learn but it? But it's not just He knew about the people at the time, or I mean about the specific people in the specific incidents. It's what he knew about the east in London, how it operated, how the lodging houses operated and how people would lie to authorities so

my point being that here's the inspector in charge of the case and he doesn't buy into Smith's story? So why should I- and- and so I look at it from perfect. I don't know that the story she told was false, but I have to consider that it may have been because inspector read this. Does that make sense? Yes, now we're gonna just uses as a pause to to to stop and talk about. The sponsor of this episode, which is square space, and I don't know if you saw the recent Super bowl and the really cool commercial for square space with the dude, a k, a Jeff Bridges, but he is partnered with square space space to bring his unique project to

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by an elegant, yet intuitive platform start a free trial. Today, no credit card required and when you sign up at squarespace dot com use the offer code. True murder, for a ten percent discount off your first purchase. I want to thank square space very much for the support of this episode of true murder square space, build it beautiful. So when we last left off Tom, we were talking about so tell us a little bit about how a little bit more about the invest. Your investigation, to some of the people that worked at these lodging house is very interesting. How you again not really come up with conclusions, but the conduct of some of these in

two stories, the Emma Smith and the and the mark, the tavern. You do point out these inconsistencies with witnesses. The came forward so tell us a little bit more about what you allude to basically is is that are talking about the bouncers and muscle that were at these lodging houses and the people that were managers and some of the motivation for people to look the other way. If they weigh to know somebody that we were assaulting. These women tell us a little bit more about that investigation into the likelihood that there that these lodging houses and the men that the the center of them might have something to do with these murders well in a you have to put yourself in. Place of a middle aged, prostitute, 'cause, that's where these victims were for them most part where middle aged prostitutes in the EAST end of London. These were the the most desperate of the desperate their options for anything

money, make it extremely limited, but I I want to say that you know the idea that they were full time. Prostitutes isn't necessarily true, I think these women with there were a lot of young, attractive women prostitute themselves in the Stands They could charge more money. They would steal away custom, and so these middle aged women would were also seeds and engaged in other criminal act these as well to make money. And, and you know, to keep their room and all of this, but at the landlords you held the power not just because you own the place as they got to you on the places they drank in you and the places they slept and in it through my research identified, a small small group of of men, most most of them irish or a virus descent who you were either great friends, are inter related by marriage.

And I mean we're talking a real small group here of men and all the victims across the board. All all of them. Every one of them came from the lodging houses owned by these men. Men, give them lived in in various lodging houses. Merry Kelly, really live in the same lodging houses that Emma Smith, Emily horse know Martha Tabrum, all of them stayed in at one point she Mary Kelly was living there as well. So I thought what a curious connection this little group of men, who also happened to be police informants, so they had a relationship with the police they and some of the police were on. The police were on their payroll, basically uh You know at it and again, if you were a constable in that area that might have been in some cases, it was just out of sheer necessity, because the the then, but then is now the police in London: didn't carry guns, they don't carry weapons, they had a trench and at the time there life was made how it's not like today,

Where you see a cop- and you know it- we wouldn't think of walking up to a cop and spitting on him or punching him or hitting him or chasing him down down the street, but that's what he dealt with on a nightly basis In the east end of london- and it was made all the worse if, if you weren't willing to work with the guys who controlled all the models in the east and that being the landlords if you did work with him, they work with you. And then they would give you tips help you make arrests off the books. Of course, you could also make money from them through the gambling and let you know if you turned a blind eye to an illegal boxing match or some illegal gambling hey. You know you got a little piece on the back end so So all of that was going on and so So if you're a you know, forty five year old woman, alcoholic dependent upon you know and here's the guy who runs the police in your neighborhood- then that man is is close to God to you

so You'Re- going to do whatever he says and however he says it, and so that's the kind of of power they and so the case of Emma Smith, one of the things that rub me wrong with the idea of how she came back to the lodging house and the deputy keeper, whose name is Russell she was basically the on Site manager of the house, not the owner, but the on site manager. And she says- oh well, you know we talked to him and they're going to the hospital, and then we escorted her to the hospital. I'm thinking wait a minute. So this woman leaves the lodging house she's in charge of to walk this woman to the hospital that doesn't sound right to me. She actually she can't do that. She's not allowed to do that and keep her job. What must have happened is the own Daniel Smith had to have been who live nearby would have been summoned to come over. Look at Emma and that ever should go to the hospital and then at that point

would have told him here's what you tell the doctor and that's when the story would have been concocted as to what actually happened. Emma and then I went to the hospital and told the doctor what she was told to tell him again, not knowing her injuries were fatal or anything she was going to hear all a few days and and would have to return back to her normal life. In truth, Themba may very well known exactly who attacked her known his identity, but she couldn't say that, because she'd have to deal with this person in a few days when she got out and came back so that's I mean that's just the reality of the times in the place they lived in, but Daniels Name is kept out of. It Again, the same thing had just happened, November with Emily horse. No in the lodging house next door. Owned by Daniel Smith's friend John, satchel

a young woman beat to death died of peritonitis. Remarkably, no autopsy was performed, the coroner's asked cops. Are you planning to investigate this or like not? Really, we don't have a clue and they're like okay. Well, if you're not going to mess to get, then I'm not going to bother with the expensive an autopsy performed. And is it shocking, but that's what happened and, as a result, her murder did not go down as a murder. It was given a verdict of open and that's the only reason why she's not consider the first of the White Chapel murders is because essentially she was murdered, but re helically, the doctor stated this woman was beat at that she was kicked and beaten. Her belly was extended. Her organs a ruptured and she was allowed to languish for days in the lodging House not being taken to a doctor, never was taken to a doctor and then the only one who would speak up to tell her story was John Satchel

none of the lodgers who would have been the people she actually spoke with came forth and what we're? because John won't allow it. He was the one who appeared at the inquest he the one who said oh well. She said that she was beaten up by some strangers a few nights ago and That was the end of it and the place for like we're, not touching it and this exam. Same thing happened with Emma and so I'm like ok if someone's going on here, you know what is this what's going on? What's the I want to say cover up on me since the JFK thing words like conspiracy and cover up have taken on a real fringe, meaning realistically, here's talking about here, proto more like a proto mafia. That's what the lodging housekeepers A and that's know they. A group of guys kind of loosely organized. They ran the show, they ran illegal gambling, I'm not saying we went around putting out hits on people. I don't think they these days

certainly not mafia murders. These women, who are butchered in the street, but that does I mean that they weren't protecting somebody or protecting their own interests, somehow by shielding the identity of the murder from police. For whatever reasons, There is a lot of evidence that suggest something like that was going on whoa that's going to be we're, gonna talk about Martha Tab, room and and a little bit more, you know elaborate more on poly. Full story and the extent of that, the belief in that story with the inspector read you know, organizing an incredible lineup so, but what I wanted to what I wanted to say. It was one of the more striking parts of your book again just well. I have this thought in my mind, is that you know we are in twenty fifteen and we think we understand the decay that has happened in our cities and in our countries. I guess, and we see all the

The news obviously, and I've sort of the lots of people I kind of reveling in sort of the Gore. I guess in sort of graphic detail and sort of the misery of others, I would say, but you know, when one thousand eight hundred and eighty eight it wasn't, that much different. It look like marauding gangs and prostitutes with people really. Just you know widow that was had an alcohol problem ends up being on the street, like you say the vermin, the sheets weren't washed for three months. They have a bounce rental lodging house and if they didn't have a lodging house, they would have slept rough, which means outside again vulnerable. To all these elements, And alcohol was a drug of choice, but certainly people weren't real sedate drinking. This uncle had all the problems inherent of today's society I thought that was an amazing that things much as they change don't change that much wall was much worse, though

and then it is now- and it was much worse one hundred years before that, then it was in eighteen. Eighty eight and and that that is something went when you study the past in your isolated at a certain period of time like I've done and and other refer all just done, because we tend to focus on the late victorian period in particular, play London and it's a lot of funny, things occur to you because you know part of this comes, you know we read hundreds and hundreds of newspapers. From that time, you're reading just about daily life. You know not just about these murders but life in general, the good stuff, the bad stuff, and you know it's funny- 'cause people would be in the newspaper talking about oh kids, these days they don't have the respect that we had in our day and Bob blah blah and all the kids reading, their penny, dreadfuls and blah blah blah. It is the exact same stuff that you know find myself saying now. You know kids, these days, hey,

and and that adults were saying when we were kids, and this goes back to the beginning of time. So it's actually a supper of perpetuating mess that there was something better about your generation, then about the current generation. That is a so perpetuating myth in reality. If you want to talk at it, if I, if I were a woman, I would much rather be alive today than back in eighteen, eighty, eight When that I mean the news because you should read and they were absolutely littered with nothing but domestic murder of the most brutal kinds, far in excess of what we see today. I mean a lot of people, don't realize that are familiar with the term, the rule of thumb. You always hear people say well, the rule of thumb is blah blah blah. The rule of thumb is actually a law that here in America that was in well into the nineteen fifty that stated a man could beat his wife, but he

how to use a a switch that was no larger than his thumb, then it became abuse. But if it the size of his thumb or less. It was not abuse, and that was the rule of thumb, you know, we live in a society today. You know that talk that we are wife, beater, T shirts and that's how okay it is. In our minds still while a hundred years ago that wasn't a army, a woman can on land she couldn't. Divorce, her husband, unless she proved numerous things. You know he had to be cheating on her and physically abusing her and this and that, whereas America divorce his wife, if he just kind of felt like it that's enough, So are we better today than back, then absolutely virtually almost everywhere. You can think of not to mention dentistry. At this rate, let's get back to marks, tab, room and okay Paul and what she said about the soldiers and

the investigation that ensues into whether they could actually locate these soldiers and any witnesses. Knew anything about Martha Tab on that night, well, early poll have emerged as the most important witness in the Tabrum case. Actually a few women came for work, they shown a photo of Martha and identify from that photo couple. Women looked at it and thought she was one person, but they were mistaken. And then probably principal came forth, and that's that's Emma name is Emma. She lives with me at thirty five or at a at nineteen George Street, and then another woman came forth and said: well, that's that's Martha timbre. She used to live with me before she moved out and I came to realize that MI and Martha were the same person. The Martha had just taken the name Emma

and she moved into nineteen George, ST, which is also fascinating. Considering the woman murdered prior was named Emma, but probably Paul, said yeah on the night of her murder. She and I were hitting the pub and there were these two young soldiers, a private, a corporal who escorted us around from pub to pub drinking and just on the surface. This story is hard to believe. 'cause these you know we're very unattractive, dirty Easton, women, and these young soldiers, with their paychecks would have prese public gone for a younger, more attractive set in their women like that all over the place and They just wanted to quickly. That's that's not what pearly Paul tells us happened. She tells us that they go around spending all their money in the bars drinking and getting them dressed, then go to their dark corners to have sex and presumably pay for that as well, but then

so she tells them this and- and so naturally the the soldiers become prime suspect, so they have to be found. They have to be identified these were the last men known to be seen with Martha, whatever so inspector read Has identity parades at the local Berrics at the Tower of London? Probably Pollos brought and she goes the first one and she's like nah she's, acting like she's all a hot shot in the super. Our and she's. Like now they're, not here not here they're, not here, Oh I remembered something else: they had a white bands on their caps and he's like. Oh well, that's a totally different group of guardsmen, so he has to call go and have their soldiers on the ready and go down there for, viewing of them and, and she just pretty much picks up the first two men. She sees that's them and of course, you know is in these. These men must've been sweating profusely, but their alibis checked out. They couldn't have been the soldiers and and and spell-

to read? None of the cops believed her anymore. She then disappears. Oh in between these two identity price sheet, she disappears off the map. She goes into hiding, saying I'm going to kill myself. But they tracked her down and kind of forced her against her. Will they to keep going these identity parades. And so something something change there for for her, Who was she hiding from what was she hiding from? Why was she thinking of killing herself? Why did she was she anxious to cooperate with the this one minute and then not the next- and She never answered she also wouldn't do an interview with the press. There's not a single interview with her in the press and keep in mind. They would have paid her a lot of money to do that you know she could have had a bidding war from the various newspapers and she didn't I thought that was interesting. She doesn't a concert because some people have argued well. She lied to get publicity. She was trying to get her name in the press on Michael than then

why why is she the only person associated with this case who is not interviewed, who refused interviews who the press couldn't track down they tried to, but she would refuse to speak. So no none of this was for attention. She had something else, motivating her to lie to the place, to throw them off the track to make them think some soldier killed Martha well, if it wasn't a soldier and he wasn't. You know, and that's again what led me back to the logic I'm like who holds this kind of sway over this woman? Well, the only person I could think of was her lodging housekeeper, who she was close two in his and then, when she moves from his house to another house, it's one of his friends houses and, it's you know, spitting distance of where Mary Kelly would later be murdered. You know, early fall also happened to You know, Annie Chapman. I want to probably falls best friends beat up, Annie, Chapman a day or two before her murder. So there's all these little connections these,

threads running through it that I that I wish I had more answers than I did, but I in my book. I construct various scenarios. All of them there's a lot of speculation there, but it's all based on contemporary documentation, in the based on facts. It's based on the really the press reports and the police reports. I use a lot of both of those to build from, as well as just some kind of a logical speculation where it's needed but I hope that I got. I try to make an effort. So that the reader knows when I'm giving them the facts, we know them and when I'm giving them speculation, so they can dispose of that if they choose to now we talked we didn't talk about this, but this. I think this is important, because you do talk about that. If there is some aspects of the Martha Tavern case that a

prove the most polarizing among refer all ages, and so, let's get to the. There are wounds to her neck heart and sex organs, and right, then, tell us tell us about the description of the of the injuries, but also why this is most polarizing among referral justice. My the tavern case well Martha it's there. Is she or isn't she that's the question? Is she a ripper victim or is she not and it's like, you could argue, it either way because see her throat was not slip. Jack. The ripper got his name because he kept slicing women. Throat, Marsha Abell was staff even her throat was stabbed. She was not her. Throat was not cut and so it's almost Some people might describe her murder as a friendly killing because of the thirty nine stamps and all of this. Well in my research, I you know I

look a little closer at all this the same material and I came away with a different idea of her murder Surprisingly, she was almost nude when she was found. Her legs were thrust up in the same way financials wear her skirts were thrown up same as pie. Her cloak was torn open, an apparent tavern did not have a shirt on underneath in her breasts were exposed. So she she must have looked like a rape victim when she was found like the later victim. She was not had not been raped in the classical sense But there was a great deal of blood between her legs and I thought that's interesting. Considering all the stab loans are really on the upper part of her body. Why was there so much blood between your legs, and so I studied everything a little. Closer and came away with the conclusion conclusion that, like Emma Smith, she,

I had been raped with in and out of an object. This time, a sharp object, probably the same long bladed weapon that wasn't as the inflicted the wound to her heart and that therefore, in my mind, it clicked, you know a question that people really were never asking. If people always asking was Martha Taverner Ripper victim, in other words, which she killed by the same person who killed Polly Nichols a question I had was: was she killed by the same person who killed Emma Smith I wanted to go. You know answer that backwards and to me that pretty much improved, inclusive only that Emma Smith and Martha Tabrum were murdered by the same people or person in very Miller fashions, although obviously Miss Smith was not stamp your cat or anything like that that we know of Mars the timbre of my it certainly was, and the the reason, I believe, is because Emma Smith again Sir, her injuries, as did Emily horse now before her. So this person, after them Smith, was was terrified of being

identified, so I made sure that from that point forward, his victims did not survive. His attack. And and that's why we see those injuries are Martha in in such a way. And in an upcoming book I'm going to talk about Polly Nichols from perspective. No one else has looked at her, before, with some information that really hasn't been considered, but I do believe that tab and Nichols looking at the crime the medical evidence in a new way there murder we're actually more similar similar than we currently believe, and they were in fact killed by the same person, but back to that Aberman Smith. Their murders heard yards from one another, the, locations were only yards apart or two women who lived, although they never met their lodging, houses were next door to each other

I say they never met it in Smith, had died long before Martha have removed into that lodging else. She'd only lived there a few weeks before her murder, but the lodging houses were next door to each other and they were both rates with inanimate objects and and died from this attack. So then we have a question: ask ourselves: we have somebody who has killed Emily horse now, Emma Smith, Martha, Timbre and then Martha taverns inquest is held One week, the next weekend, following the ending of her in class Polly, Nichols is murder. So then the question is: did the serial killer, who killed these first? Three women, just you know, disappear off. The face to the earth in time for a new serial killer to emerge and start killing the same class of in the same area, but in the summer and I'm in a more mature refined, the or.

Are all these murders related either the same person as committing them all, for it is two different people but operating on the same influence. Those are the questions that I'm asking myself to this day and that I asked much? anything. I'm writing tell us just a little bit about the role of inst, the inspector stabber lean from Scotland Yard and in just tell us a little bit about his role and his conclusions, afterwards inspector Abberley. Why don't really talk about him at all in the book? I'm probably not an authority on on that per se, but that he is certainly the most famous the investigators having been personified by the likes of Michael Caine and the nineteen eighty eight television miniseries jack. The ripper and then Johnny Depp in two thousand and one's from hell and actually even more recently in the film the Wolf man,

I I forgot Hugo Weaving portrayed him like and inspect is just set the record straight contrary to the stomach that sections of him. He was not an alcoholic. He was not an synthetic and he's apparently was not a psychic, but that's how he's portrayed in film inspector Abilene? beat for many many many years was White Chapel in the EAST end and he was a very, very capable investigator. He rose up the ranks, and then Scotland Yard's Magnum up and moved him into Scotland Yard. In fact, it was inspector. Reid was kind of moving up behind him taking his old spots. So when the ripper case happen In fact, it was following Martha Tabor men before Polly Nichols. I Schottland yard and got involved and said we need our Whitechapel man Amberley, go back there and help out on this.

And so he was one of many inspectors and investigators involved in these, but I don't think of him as being the man in charge as he's betrayed in hall. Certainly he was one of the men. In charge, but his conclusions, that came to him long after his retirement. He believed a fellow by the name of Severin, closeout ski aka George Chapman was Jack, the Ripper This man was a barber. He was a wife murder. He would this man what is married women poison and take their money. Okay, that's what this guy did. And he wasn't busy. He wasn't Jack the ripper, so I'm Berlin was mistaken on that point, a Chapman's not that great of a suspect other than you know. I have to say this man was a murder

so he possessed the instincts to kill and he did live in the east end at the time very close to these murders. These murders, but there's nothing suggest that he went out with a knife and killed me when he would poison women totally different method of dispatch, so but that's that was amber. Lynn sought after retirement was that and he was the murder weapon. What's more interesting is ambulance comments on other suspects and why- and he did- you know like Aaron Kosminsky who's been in the news, though the last year because of the shawl and all that he didn't think your husband. He would refer him, he didn't think the ground a Kate, You know quote unquote. Doctor Montague John drew was the ripper he didn't honestly believe in any of those theories, for one reason or another. But

He did believe that George Chapman was the most likely person to have been the ripper, and I would disagree with that. But but I respect his thoughts now, one of the other really fascinating parts of your book is the. Talk about and dissect the whole leather apron story so tell us about leather, apron, John Pies and who accused him and tell us the whole story, leather apron before the name Jack. The ripper came about in a letter written to a news agency, the press needed something to call this guy who was run around killing women. And the name leather apron took hold because some of the women in the neighborhood, particularly the women who lived at eighteen, Paul Street, which was Polly, Nichols final address. Hold of a strange cobbler,

You know shoemaker, who would wander around being mean, or are you just kind of crazy and they make fun of him a call and letter it because he wore a leather apron and they told the police about this? I told the press about this. Well then, the press to- that kind of exaggerated a bit and created this character with these menacing eyes, and these crazy, whiskers and and all this and sold a lot of copy with that character, and so that It's like okay! Well, who is this slow? The rate? We clearly need to talk to him and You know, I think a lot leather apron was probably more than one person was in was, and none of them were the killer. But this fellow by the name of John Pizer pointed out on the street is being leather apron and the cops just. I'll, come for a minute and let him go and no one thought anything of it.

Sergeant, William Sick, I decided. Oh yeah yeah I've known for eighteen years. Whenever anyone speaks of leather apron, they're talking about him, we got to hunt him down and that became a big. And he was eventually arrested at his home and taken into police custody and the police or the press. The press for all in the footsteps of the police. I mean they would literally follow the police, not the police, knocked on a door and spoke to someone as soon as the cop. That's the pressman would be there knocking on the door saying. What did you just talk? and so in every You know there are a hundred times more newspapers in them like today, London, might have what two or three major newspapers, one thousand eight hundred and eighty eight it had over one hundred and twenty and that we're talking one city. So so an american newspapers had London, correspondent, so anyways pies,

there was arrested his leather apron and the press tried to find evidence that this guy was, other than what they found was that no one in the neighborhood, no one who never knew him by that name and he steadfastly denied being liberated. But this you know with his reputation as ran through the mud in the in the press as being leather, apron and sergeant. Stick was making all these statements about him being leather apron and When I talk about in my book, it appears in my Glide it's pretty clear. He lied. Peiser was not known as leathery from those two did know each other. Personally, for eighteen years they lived in roughly the same area and knew each other the there's an identity parade where a man stepped forward and picked pies are out of a group of men and say yeah I saw him attacking any Chapman, will it turned out this man was lying and

In my opinion, sector team up to it, he said, go pick out, pies and accused You have basically murdering any Chapman and it back, it didn't work. So eventually a deal was struck or peiser, but appear at the inquest, to Chapman's murder and be allowed to clear quickly clear him of any wrongdoing in the murder, but in return he had to admit to being leather apron because He was already talking about serving everybody and they couldn't. Email. They couldn't let the police that the police can let that get out so that they struck a deal. If you just say, you're known as leather apron and mean in by doing that, he left the police off the hook then you'll be allowed to clear your name. They'll be no more suspicion against you, because mobs were forming outside his door, trying to kill her unpopular popular. He was so that's the story, but I Why would this starts police sergeant as otherwise pretty good reputation?

Why would he do this? It doesn't make any sense and then researching- and I like- I will look at that six years, for there. He is giving good character references for Johnson shall curly Pauls, landlord and John Mccarthy Mary Kelly's. And and the lords just it'll, and I did more research and he had a reputation of setting people up and I'm not making this stuff up. I've gotten a lot of heat from ripper out some ripper ologists, because they all love there. They just think the police can do no wrong. And and then, on the other hand, you have people who say all the police for all the ups and I don't believe in any of those the police over all that back then, were very good, but there's going to be bad apples and and then there's going to be cop Suv usually are, good, but then you know they also step out and do crazy things for extra money, and it appears that's what sergeant William Thicke was so then question is? Was he framing peyser? Why was he training

re trying to protect some I'm paying to do this. What was the motivation. I do not believe that sergeant lean Thick was a murder anything, although he does hold the dubious. That being the only member of the the police force at the time to be accused a member of the public of being jack. The ripper a lawyer was writing letters, saying, I think, certainly Lee PIC of Jack, but there's nothing. I don't believe that for a second, but second just. It did take, maybe have an idea of who the river was and decided. It was in his best interest to keep that information himself and possibly frame an innocent person. That's possible that's possible, but you know: there's there's other possibilities as well. And he was known as upright new explain what that meant. Funny Upright, was his name in in in the street slang. If there was an urban dictionary published in one thousand, eight hundred and eighty eight, which in fact there was, but it was published in the fifty

hundreds, but it it talked about a man who is known as an upright it was someone who would squeal or or who would take money turn a blind eye who would use prostitutes who it is you know just it's. It's like a play on words up right. You think it to me in an upright citizen, the other standing citizen high morals well in slang You took a word and then whatever it's opposite was is what its actual meaning was so clean. It's called him Johnny up right because he was a cricket cop. In other words, now the flip side Of course, the police spent on. Was all humans Johnny up right because he was such an upstanding card, but let doesn't appear to be the case he was given the name by a criminal, was getting convicted on his evidence, so clearly that and gave him that name, because he was accusing sick of sending him up on fake.

Evidence to get him convicted if there was no truth to that, I don't think the name would have stuck, but it did, and that became his street. Nickname is Johnny. Upright part of this book to is, I know, we're we're jumping around just a little bit, but you state of this other again so many coincidences here that you put together for the reader to DIS, ponder and really question yourself you don't have all the answers but use zero. You know you, you bring all the information to to get a conclusion drawn. Tell us about the flowering and dean address connection between the lives of the strike, Catherine at those have pearly Paul. Merry Kelly. Tell us this scribe this vicinity of how shorter distances between all of these and this and the commonality between these addresses.

Well one one thing you know when I talk about in the book in this talk about another of her books is the fact that all the ripper murders occurred inside of one square mile. That's why you So there are ripper walking tours in London where you can sign up in a tour guide I'll. Take you around two hundred and out, not all of but a number of the murder sites in a relatively short period of time, 'cause they're, all within walking distance of each other Ann. You can't really name any other serial killers out there. You couldn't do it TED Bundy, walking tour. You know what I mean he's over numerous states, but you can and with the ripper- and I find that very curious in itself, flower and dean, St Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes or two- the ripper victims killed on the same night, what's known as the double event September, 30th of eighteen, eighty eight they were killed in different areas. Catherine Eddowes was killed.

In Mitre Square in the city of London and Elizabeth I was called on Berners Street. They were killed, it's ten minute, their murder, their murder sites were ten minutes, walk apart and they were murdered. Five minutes with one from the other. What's interesting, is these two women? Aside from being a the same age also happened to have lived on the same street flower and Dean ST. For seven years. I don't know, though they knew each other that they were friends. There's no question: they had to have known each other by sight at least, and we're probably acquainted just by virtue of the fact again, if we can't judge anything by how it is today. We all think well. Gosh Tom I've lived in my house for five years- and I couldn't tell you the names of the people- two doors down from me, but I can guarantee you if you saw him at the store, he probably recognized and want you, but this is a different time. These people didn't set in there

the air condition homes watching tv all day. They were when they weren't sleeping or cooking. They were out in front of their lodging house, if they were in the street, they were in the pub on that street. They were in the little corner, grocery store eating and sitting outside and talking with one another that the bathhouse is going to the bath houses. Catherine Meadows and Elizabeth tried had to have on each other. They probably worked again. They would, they would make both supposedly make extra money by cleaning while they would have been cleaning in the same buildings uh. So it's just another interesting connection 'cause. These Is it one of the popular things just to go? Who was Elizabeth's? Try to refer Macomber what she not people, think they're hip if they can take a ripper victim and argue that she wasn't a record victim, even though they have to use a lot of false information to do then. Some very reputable authors do that Donald Rumbelow and in them

recent edition of his his book. All the facts wrong wrong in his to try and argue that Elizabeth Stride was not a ripper victim, and numerous others before him have done that and it again solved. Calculating one author makes a mistake and gets repeated you know. That's why each other has to kind of do their own research. I've made mistakes, I'm sure in my book, but I'll have to correct in a future edition if someone else doesn't correct at first but You know you got at least makes it hard to not make those kind of mistakes. S Elizabeth tried most probably was killed by the same person who killed Catherine Eddowes, and that person was probably the same person who killed Polly, Nichols they Chapman and and Mary Kelly. But of course nobody can say that for one hundred percent certainty

but we're dealing out with probabilities and when you're looking at a hundred twenty six year old, cold case yeah, that's all you have are possibilities and probabilities. You know what I'm saying right. Let me ask this: let me ask this question because this I'm I'm a curious, follow and and after reading this book, you again despite like we You mentioned the flower and dean address connection. The connection between stride at owes pearly Paul, Merry Kelly View. You put another interesting thing without really spelling it out, but you say: Merry: Kelly was butchered in in our own slapped in in one of the rooms and the witness that discovered her. He immediately

went to the lodging or contacted the lodging House owner. So you do talk about that in terms of these other murders. That again, the protocol must have been for the people to go to the lodging House owner first, you talk about that with Emma Smith. The other thing I wanted to ask was with this kid, with with these tenuous connections between all of these victims. What do you say about the again? The idea that he made one killer may affect escalated. His crimes changed his signature. Is there any kind of good PA possibility that one killer or the one killer with an accomplice did all of these murders. Yes, I would say it's a probability that the murders of Emily horse Melinda Smith, Martha Tabron, Polly Nichols

Chapman Elizabeth Stride, Camp Tornadoes and Marie Kelly were all the same person or persons that to me is a probability now when you get to the murders that followed Mary. Kelly we're into a more of a gray area You know, although one of them that may, when I'm rose my lad, who is at interesting 'cause. She also lived at nineteen George Street and her, Boyfriend was a boxer who John Satchel TRAIN and and paid a lot of money to train, often wondered you know others have wondered too of Jack. The ripper himself wasn't a boxer because the reason the these women, I believe, were were were under unconscious 'cause they weren't. Most of them were not strangled per se, but they

all somehow rendered unconscious in in way the doctors could not detect and- and I in my book I present the most probable. To my mind, way of doing this, it was called guaranteeing, but not with a string or cord using your own arm to Suffolk attitude to render a person unconscious conscious, which was crucial for the ripper, because he can't have this woman screaming out. You know I'm running and getting help and then capturing him right. So we had to quickly render her and which many had to be tall and strong. That's that's who we're looking for and people who would know these techniques would be boxers and criminals So that's another clue that wasn't in the books before mine, but that's something to strongly consider and- and it explains away the miss SIRI how some of these women were rendered unconscious, but yet left no fingerprints on the next. You know or the Tell tale signs of

strangulation that you usually see now just to lay a little credibility to what you're saying you do talking about, The book that these lodging house owners also had these amateur fight. Clubs as well, and so part of their income was, I guess, gambling and owner owning and organizing these fights, and so maybe the protection of one of these fighters. Possibly could have been a motive for coming out politically yeah, absolutely I've. I've wondered about that exact same thing. You know, because a boxer is an asset sure. A boxer is an asset so

You know it's one of those things that you know the boxer lose his temper and beat up Emily horse know, and they said well, let's just cover it up. Just hey, you know, don't let it happen again. Well, then, it happens again and they're like a you, gotta stop and it keeps happening then, at some point it's out of control uh. You know they. So are they sure it's a possibility? It's ap! but I have no proof for error or straightforward evidence to to to to say that. That's the case, it's just that's just another speculation. You know what I'm saying that's yeah and I was hoping define that enough avenues led to a certain individual where we could point to him and go ha he's extremely suspicious, but that's not the case said, there's a number of individuals who are suspicious

And- and it could be any one of them or not right now, you talked about with near the beginning of the interview about, since this book is come out of the acceptance, and I guess you know you had a little bit of trepidation on that as well, because it it it is a pretty esteemed group. Sometimes it looks at at at has tackled some of this, so It's about the response, since the book has come out and in particular anything that really surprised you or you know, really impressed you made yet pretty satisfied with what you have done well Paul bag. Who is you know as far as Rick Rogers go as this? You know he's like up at the top of the heat is like the Beatles. I call the Beatles of problem and then a Stewart Heavens is the Elvis of liberality. Anyways paw beg write, reviews for rip,

largest magazine and in my book came out in February of twenty fourteen, and he said even though it's too early to say, 'cause, it's the beginning of the year he predicted my book might be the best ripper book of the year, which is really saying something considering he had his own coming out the next month. But that's everything off to a good pace and then, if anyone who wants to go to Amazon or Goodreads and read what people say I've just been overwhelmed with the positive response. Of course, I've had a handful of of critics, You know who just immediately, if it's, if it's in that, but and that's under my name. It's just crap. You know you're always going to benefit like ripper Aladji, like any field where there's debate This in everything is contentious, but those well. You know, I'm they keep you on your toes too. It's good to someone with a good head on their shoulders. Picking your work apart and saying: okay, here's this year, it makes you look, you think about things, and it also it led the people going out sometimes

I will go out and to try and prove you wrong an find new evidence and sometimes it actually proves you right and sometimes it does prove you wrong, and the truth is what matters that I couldn't care less, whether I'm right or wrong about anything. What I want to see happen is new stuff gets discovered in in not. You know what I'm saying that has happened that that right there that answers your question. The best thing that's happened since this book, Matt as I've seen. A lot of new information come out. Ng in discussions happen research as a taken place that wouldn't happen. Had I not come out with that book in some of that's come from my day guess critics and some from my biggest fans and then some from the people who are extremely objective stay right down the middle, but that's my favorite thing about it that, and I also like the money. The money's been. You know? I haven't? I haven't gotten rich from it, but considering I thought I was writing that I will write this book and I thought I hope I just kind of break even or something. But it's like I said it's. It's

people like Dan, Sepanski or saying get on my show and I'm like well, so I didn't expect. I I I I had no idea. Anyone would want to talk to me just because of this little book, but it has it Thirteen awards, you know to its one, so let us History Book award best true Crime book award so very pleased great. And I guess that's going to inspire you because you already have plans. I mean this is not okay, I've done the definitive jack the Ripper book, so I can retire now and just rest on my laurels, but I'm sure you've got it. So you talked about Charles La Grande and so tell us what is in the works next well right now, as we speak, I'm actually writing is fiction which I publish under a different name, but so I'm taking a break prodigy

yeah, well, not extended, break or anything, I'm sure. But you know I've written some on my next trip or book which which is where I want to take the ripper murders and do what I do. What I did with Emma Smith tomorrow, the table which will start the beginning in research them unbiased, and I want to continue on with that 'cause I stopped ice stopped when I got to Polly Nichols cuz. I had to write the bank holiday murder so starting with nickels and moving forward. I want to keep that going on. I vote written most of a pretty large section on poly. Nichols. I think a lot which is gonna is going to cause a lot of debate and and a lot. People will love it and some will hate it. It's going to have new stuff, and just keep going on it's time consuming, though tough work and so anyway, is I want to do that book and then I want to do Charles Legran. I want to do a book on him which you could call it a suspect book. But again my approach is going to be to respect.

The reader in the same way that I want to be respected. When I read a book, I don't want someone telling me what the truth is and shoving it down. My throat here's Jack the ripper. I'm going to say: here's a guy who people back then some of them thought was jack. The ripper. Let's take a closer look at him and and see what the you know in the and then you decide what you think, because I'm not convinced is Jack, I'm not convinced anybody's jack. You know what I'm saying it would take an awful lot to convince some people are. Extremely only convinced and, and and then others there like myself. I I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine myself being convinced beyond out of someone's guilt. It would take some see at it can happen, but it would have to be. There have to be evidence that I don't currently know about come forth to to convince. Think of that I haven't seen that yet so I, but my I think, but this trial, so Grand is probably the single best suspect ever,

and no one knows that right now, 'cause my book isn't written when they read it, though I I see what he's talking about so there you go up us and they will look for to your book regarding Charles a grant, and I want to say too, I agree with you that if you were to put all all the things that I've ever read and I'm no ripper ologist expert whatsoever, but just from the more I read it seems to be more suspects. As you say, it seems to be more complex and I and that's not surprising to me for one hundred and twenty six year old cold case, let alone something. That's fifteen or twenty years, never mind one hundred and twenty five years and a lot of the records were destroyed, a lot of stuff was pilfered. Like you mentioned in the book, things were stole the souvenir, so there isn't a complete story and lot, like you say, lives were bill.

Upon other lies and are perpetrated and or repeated. So you did a credible job digging through all of that stuff and then coming to some at least juncture where we can at least decide. Ok, this is what he's saying about this particular victim and the connection between these murders based on the flower and dean address and some of the other things. So just a fascinating read you bring the reader right into London in eighteen. Eighty eight and I applaud you on a great book and very fascinating, very fascinating, take on another aspect of the jack, the Ripper Sega in this bank holiday murders. So I want to thank you very much Tom for those that might want to contact you and learn more about this. Tell us how they might contact you or learn more about this book and more about what you do regarding Jack to Rep.

Tell us about that. Well, I have for sale. If anyone wants to to check out the bank holiday, murders, yeah the fault title by the way. Is the bank holiday murders the true story of the first Whitechapel murders is available through Amazon, DOT, com, Amazon, DOT, co, DOT, UK and wherever you happen to live and have it Amazon. I have it available in Kindle format, pretty cheap, actually right now in american dollars, it's four hundred and ninety nine and you can also get the paper back through Amazon relatively inexpensively. If you want to come, attack me. My website is ripper book dot com. You can go on Facebook. And and find me at Facebook, dot, com, backslash, ripper books with an s And then I don't really tweet much, fully understand what that is, but I have read yeah can find me at river book and

I also moderate the busiest jack the ripper page on Facebook. If you just type in Jack, the ripper you'll find the check for community on there with like one thousand five hundred members and just just sign up annual, catch me on there, along with a number of other names, you'll recognize from the books on your shelf, fantastic. Thank you very much Tom for this interview, and you have yourself a great evening and hope to hear from you again real soon Hey christian it and I'm, and I look forward to continuing to listen to your awesome- show thank you much Tom best of luck with your next project and hope to hear from you soon. Can you got mad.

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