Hi, I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, America's largest mortgage lender. Let's talk credit card debt for a minute. If you feel you're carrying too much of it, you're, not alone the average household in the. U S carries over eight thousand dollars in credit card debt, ready for some good NEWS with a cash out refinance from Quicken loans. You can quickly and easily put some of the equity in your home to good use by paying off a lot of that high interest credit card debt. A great way to take cash out is with our thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken to learn how taking cash out with a thirty year fixed mortgage might be the right solution for you and for a record nine years in a row. Jd power, his right Quicken loans highest in the nation in customer satisfaction for primary mortgage origination call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot. Com for getting our work for mission is a J part account rates of exchange. A one point: two five percent fee receive a discount rate off across information in conditions legalizing letter license in all fifty states and what number thirty? Thirty loyalty is all about. Being there day in day out

Tripoli thanks you for being there with loyalty, rewards like when you get savings on triple a auto insurance, just for being a triple a member, and when you switch to triple a auto insurance, you could save more based on how long you've been a triple a member and how long you've had your current insurance insurance. Not just insurance, learn more about triple a auto insurance and loyalty, rewards click now or visit Tripoli, dot com, slash insurance law

don't miss this Saturday, steel at old Navy, fifty percent off all outerwear plus graphic tees, just five dollars for adults, four dollars for kids in five dollars. Women sock packs three huge deals one day only Saturday at old Navy and oldnavy dot com, Paletten nineteen, auto works, close in store clearance, select, graphic tees and socks only fall is finally here and so his old Navy's big fall sale, get thousands of styles from despi bucks. All your fall. Favourites are on sale, now, layer up with five dollars tees and ten dollars, long sleeve tees for the whole family and stock up on sweaters and dresses for DIS, fifteen dollars, plus save even more without the seventy five percent off clearance. Styles, don't miss out hurrying for thousands of styles from this five dollars now at old Navy in oldnavy dot com valid one thousand and fifteen to one thousand and twenty five select styles. Only radio

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Good evening, in nineteen. Ninety seven, the bodies of young african american men began turning in the cane fields, in New Orleans suburbs, the comes. Many of them transient, ST hustlers, had been brutally raped and strangled,

leaving Lou Louisiana's gay community rattled. When no leads were found in the murders, continued detectives Dennis Thornton and Don Bergeron came together as a task force, partners and were in the figure to in the figure in there a decade, long effort to track down the killer in two thousand six dna evidence, finally link the murderers. This to a suspect. Unassuming assuming Ronald Joseph Dominique who had lived under the radar for years working as a pizza delivery man in a meter reader, but was he and what had led him to commit such heinous crimes with direct access to the investigation, dominiques confession and all the sites where bodies were dumped, not Fred, Rosen enters the warped mind of the murderer. Providing horrifying and fascinating account of his troubled disturbing broken life and his brutal crimes to book their fee,

the this evening is the by Strangler Louisiana's, most gruesome serial killer with my special guest journal. Author Fred Rosen, welcome back to the program, and thank you very much again for joining us on true murder. Welcome thread. Rosen Dan is always a disk think pleasure to be on with you, especially today, when Justin Trudeau met with Donald Trump. I won't even go there going there. Ok. Oh, that's all politics, we to get here. I know that business but murder. Yes, sir. Thank you very much red for joining me with this. Your latest release the the strangler Louisiana's, most gruesome serial killer and incredible. Ah, as you note, the choice of victims

means that many many many people most people don't know who this is, but thanks to Fred Rosen and buy we're good, get to hear about it tonight. What brought you to this story Fred before we were brought me to the story, Dan back in late two thousand and eight when got Dominique, was finally sentence with the fact that I didn't know anything about it. I went use me this guy killed twenty, three men and it's not in the press. It not in the media. I was astonished. I I just I couldn't get over it, and so I said well, you know, uh, I gotta find out, what's going on here now, as you kiss to New Orleans and New Orleans Parish October. Third, one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight.

And the neighbors put the the quarter, and you talked to just we just introduce. Ronald Joseph Dominique is five foot five hundred sixty pound thirty six years old talk a little bit about him before we talk about all of LA banks, who's twenty seven years old and a in this parish and a gay bar called the rawhide, you take us right away to this incredible incident, an interaction and these people so tell A little bit about how you open up and start this incredible story in Orleans Parish

Super third one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight. Well, I started it. There. Becaus Dominic was very, very eloquent in describing the individuals that he killed when they subsequently got him, and I was fascinated by the demo basically what you would do it. What he did was he just went into the quarters, as he called it. The french quarter and he's very he's a plan and he was looking, for a guy to have sex with, but at the same time he had

Something really wrong with him that made him get extremely violent with these individuals and the the that uses which is to say to a guy in a bar, and you know when I can in this case it's a gay bar. He said to the guy. Well, you know, I'm I'm interested in your doing this sexual act or that sexual act, and then they would agree on a price and that would happens, is he he and and his victim were left the bar and they start walking through the through the french quarter. Do they walk right by Jean Lafitte's blacks, blacksmith shop, with feet, of course, with the pirate tea tree

who helped defend America from the British during the war of one thousand, eight hundred and twelve in one thousand, eight hundred and fourteen, and he takes him to his car? Can they start doing? You know, set double stuff and then the next thing you know dominate gets really angry be cause. The guy is trying to do anal sex with him, and for this reason she doesn't walk, there's and that's the point at least that's what he will subsequently tell police that he just loses it. But the fact is,

worth while they're doing this in the car Dominique has like a jack handle under the seat. So he's already ready to do something and that's exactly what he does. He takes. The jack Handle hits the guy in the head and he killed him. But the interesting part about this individual is that. Rather, dump the body someplace where people won't find it, which is what most murderers. I think we do. He decides he's going to do it in pub. And he's got all kinds of reasons for doing. And so he rides around the airport with this body in the back seat and what I did Dan was, I drove it exactly the same route, so I could describe it book for the reader, so here I want, You gotta see this stuff, you know what I mean

and you know you gotta breathe when you're writing. You know this. When you writing true crime, you got breathe the same air as the bad guy 'cause. Then you get it. You get the feeling for it. And just doing that really gave me an appreciation for our this guy was able to do what he did for so many years. You talk about. Just to elaborate a little bit, it's not Only that he had places he could dump these bodies, but rather he wanted these bodies to be found, but this is the value where the composition and the Gators can do your job like nobody else in terms of destroying forensic evidence is not true. Yes, yes, yes or one of the things that I discovered the years ago on some other books. Is that when you, if you don't the body

number one, if you dump a body in in in warm water, it's going to decompose in it sort of makes sense of it. You know it's going to decompose that much quicker, my god, if you dump it in up by you, the alligators would get rid of it and it be no evidence not Dominique. He wanted the body to be found, be course of his inferiority complex and he wanted the body to be found, and so he would search out a place where he could dump the body without anybody seeing him, but it was still. In public next to a were freeway road, whatever it might be and, and that's what he does in and we're we're in this

particular case in and all the other cases of the other twenty two. He kills Utah about the next day's passerby sees the body. Like you say,. Below the freeway ramp and calls police he's dumped in Jefferson County, so detective Dennis Thornton. The battle figures in this book a he is you also talk about this New Orleans Metro area and per capita homicide rate. Tell us little bit about that and, as you do, introduce who DIS Dennis Fortin detective Dennis Thornton? Yes, yes, yes, the no our has the highest per capita murder rate of any place in the United States of America and that that could be so one more body.

You're, more or less is not going to make much of a difference except who to relatives and if you're lucky enough are concerned, the tracker in origin Dennis Thornton is unique. He he is a detective, and now he's actually a captain of. But back then you know you, you know the, and with the degree in criminal masters, degree in criminal justice, so you've got a guy. Who's got ST smarts academic, smarts, and

Most importantly, he has he's blind to what the the profession is of the victim of victim is a victim. He doesn't care whether the victim is a male prostitute, a female prostitute or any you know or anything of that nature, and he he he doesn't hear the victim is gay or straight goalie, noses it's a victim and, quite frankly, that's pretty unique in my experience with the police department's that I've worked with, because in most cases when prostitutes are killed. The police department's don't knock themselves out, because these aren't taxpaying citizen stand, you know once, but when you once in awhile, you get a cop like this one and

he doesn't care, you know only knows. Is that one of the ten commandments has been violated and he's going to go or after the guy, as long as it takes. Now you talk about, did he doesn't realize, but this is not this killers first kill yes, and so you go through the people that were first seen. The first victims was David Mitchell. Nineteen, and what you also mention to is not only does he not care about age, it doesn't care about profession,. As we'll see in this story, which is again even more unique, he doesn't care about race. Oh, no, no, you know that's a great point, yeah yeah, because I you know, I certainly can

more on the on a year on her sexuality situation, but no, he does not care about race at all and what I'm not going to tar and feather every police officer in in the southern, United It states, but the fact of the matter is there are many big. It's in the United great many of them are in the southern states, and some of them are police officers, and I'm not saying anything here that hasn't been said before. But the uniqueness of this story is fact the first cop on the case is not from white and that's what got me. In contrast.

To the fact that our media wouldn't cover it? While those are issues we could debate all night and day in terms of A certain segment of society and armor some people in states, but for this purpose, when what we do get to see is an extraordinary effort by an extraordinary officer and that's what's incredibly interesting, because we haven't met the other central figure. Yes and again just right out of central casting. So, let's Youtube David Mitchell. Nineteen he's seen on July 13th, nineteen ninety seven in another parish, Saint Charles Parish and uh make you say is living nearby in in boot or but I'm not sure the front. So tell either tell us, tell us how this victim is found, and we didn't mention exactly what.

This is the condition of the body and again, this is something that will talk of ammo signature. What did they find in terms of David Mitchell and what did they find before that with Lee banks in terms of what please find at the scene? What would we find it Constance, consistent M o in the in this case and what they find it every single and Is that these are what cops called body dump jobs the individual is murdered over here and then forwarded over there and dumped in public, and they find what is consistent.

Is the individual is the this is is strangled, it might be a certain element of soft Kacian. If that didn't work enough, you know if the. If the strangling didn't work enough, and and and they can and it can also be bludgeoning, but the it is a very consistent m o now the difficulty is what uh profilers coal linkage? How do you link? Ok, how do you weigh a a murder in one parish and of course this is has unique system. It's a county account how do you link it from over here to over there? This is this is not an easy thing to do, and

Today we have more sophisticated methods uh of geographic profiling, but they didn't employ that here. All they know is the body is done. The dude is your secretary didn't blah blah blah and we'll see what we can find out x, pretty much it. You know it doesn't get any and you know it it it doesn't it again. It's a question of making grappling kitsch and that's going to take quite sometime now we're talking about an error released where DNA Cognizant. And aware of and advancements in DNA testing and technology, what evidence of any hair fiber souvenirs take.

In robbery motive. What evidence was left at that crime scene? Well, the only thing that please If you, the only evidence that they would be walking enough to get would be mitochondrial DNA, which is not an absolute uh, mitochondrial DNA is a essentially a partial identification, it's not as conclusive, as as the other kind of dna, the name, the name risk. The scientific name escapes me at the moment, but so this was in a situation where the dna would necessarily we had the the capture of the bad guys and

course you gotta have a bad guy. You gotta, you know sky, you know, and you know, there's a few tv series that get it right there. When you going to do something about nature, you gotta get it. If you get the guy in custody, you gotta get yourself a search warrant, uh in in the United States. To do that sort of thing. It's not an easy thing to get you know, and so the police constitutional restrictions, essentially until they can show that there's a reason to get the dna from whoever the bad guy Lee, but again we go back to the same thing. It doesn't do any good. You know you can get the D

the body. But if you have nothing to compare to war, what good does it go? You've got to have yourself a a you know: you're gonna have to stop the suspect, and that is not happening. There is no such that in the end, Dominique is a really smart guy. Very Ferrell is many serial killers or, as you know, and and the listeners know, and he moves from uh bring in the New Orleans area back to go back home Houma LA which is sounds. Will that complicates the matter, because Are we going through another panther doesn't powership? How is how are you going to link something like that?. Again. The only way you could link it would be.

You'd really have to have a geographic profile or in the case- and that is that is that is a very um um, oh courant, a method of profiling yay, now, people have got it forget what they see in a tv show like criminal minds. That's a bunch of crap. You know It's all crap, I mean the FBI, the eight year old science division, sure serial killers, some on my tv, the Easter they the bodies, police officers by and large, and a lot of the time, they're wrong, so actually, when you're trying to track

down a serial killer, as in this case it's it's, the old fashioned method of shoe leather and and and investigation. That's the way it is. You talk about Dennis Thornton because he's the first time on on these cases. From what he noticed that there are some tires tire marks made. And he also noticed and thanks this is quite important as the ligature marks on the wrists. And he notices how the risks are tide. His conclusion is tell us what his can Illusion is in terms of this early again, Despite all the FBI profile that you say is cookie cutter and they end up being cookie cutter. What does Dennis Gordon, this really really dedicated cop.

What does he come up with in this early assessment of the ligatures on the wrist? Well, he he. He certainly feels that that the literature are indicative of the individual being restrained, which of course, makes it easier for the bad guy too, commit the crime. It also becomes what is known as signature behavior. The thing that one of the things that makes a serial killer, unique. And, of course, that sort of detail is known only to the investigating officer which they can use later on. If they get lucky enough to get the bad guy into an interrogation, room um and the ligature marks are

Are, of course, extremely important and they they also determined that Again, nine. You know when you put strangle somebody, it's pretty interesting. What happens? Is blood vessel blood vessels bursting the I gotta say that slowly Martin's, and you might also have in the situation hi Laurie Bone in the throat might be broken. That is really paying attention to this stuff. I mean he's really good. I I I I each really be. I I mentioned in the book right that you for everything my I mentioned, Mycroft Holmes, who is Sherlock Holmes, is all

look brother and he's really being a true detective, and I also want to just point out that this is not usual we'd like to believe that every place every detective is capable of this. That's not the case. If that was the, place we're not having this conversation, because he would Dominic would have been caught a lot earlier in some of the other parishes. But it's be cause of Thornton's observations of the signature, behavior of the ligature marks of the way, the Indivi jewels are murdered that he he he begins to understand, no

Not only you know what the MO is up this guy and how he does it, and I and I'll I'll just tell you that one of the things that I had a learning curve on Dan on this one was, You know these guys that Dominique picked on many of them, weren't very good shape. I mean we were. You know strong individuals, but he was able to he actually was a lot stronger physically. Any looked so once he got the guy under him. He could use his weight to guy their time up. Do whatever you wanted to do with the guy I mean, thank God, he didn't torture or anything like that. You know what I mean,

I mean that line that was in the spring, that was it right e r r e acts for longer than mine right. You talk about in your book because we got to go through a little bit of this incredible by we count in terms of we terrible David Mitchell that was nineteen years old was on last seen on July. One thousand three hundred and ninety seven but then we have a five month, later Gary Pierre twenty years old in San search Charles Parish and then seven months later, Laree Rio Lairy Ranson, who was again again Dominique changes victim of choice in terms of age, and you always will out that these bodies are dumped close, together. So Thornton really has his hands Phil on trying to understand this mentality of this guy. That seems

Taunting police not only leaving the bodies to be discovered, but now going back to a familiar dumping site and the F Fbi, like you say, comes in, but it's not really doing anything at that time. You talk about how, though, after the banks that finger expeller and he's not waiting as long fifteen days after the banks is Joseph Brown sixteen years old and one months later Williams Young man named Williams. Now at what point I need to talk about manual, read found twenty one years old found, may one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine then Angel Magia June 30th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. So what distort and think how much are this? Is the state

disturbed by this or are they? What is the progress of this investigation? Tell us little bit about what the status was around this time. With this many victims really actually now that you mention it, there is no status. I mean the they're not making Thornton is doing the best that we can. Within his parish, and if he here is about, similar killing. Another parish will put it together, necessarily mean he's going to hear about all the killings that are happening and as far as the state is concerned, they don't care like. I said these are not taxpaying citizens. Most of them are- most of these individuals are gay

and I might add right. Somebody pointed her to help me a friend of mine, Jim Healy, afterward, that some of these individuals could also have been bisexual. You know, but great you're, not in our again, I wouldn't be critical of the state of Louisiana on this one because they're not putting it together. If you have a you know, they're not putting it together. If you got a body that you know dump over here and then there's one over here. They don't you know it's not like it's not. Right, you know Mariska Hargitay of heart there reading all of the our you know, all of the bulletins that are coming in from all over the place. You know what I mean and so Dennis is, of course possible by the And we all know that serial killers have quote

quote: cooling off periods, and where they don't do anything. In the dominiques case in some of those cooling off period, he gets a little bit in trouble with the cops for some minor stuff which again and it's fairly difficult for a serial killers, but it, but as far as the state pudding it together are. The state is not at this point in time by the late 90s there not interested they really. You know they're not interested. Nobody's put it together. Yet you talk about in ninety nine, though the media, gets involved and puts out a again in your account with calling it. The shoeless shoeless body could be

work of a serial killer and, as a result, you talk about you talk about this this killer, feeling the heat and move meaning to Houma again. This is fifty eight miles only southeast in New Orleans there is a sketch there's. Then you had set to fifty eight or did I put it in the book. I don't remember you put it in the book fifty eight miles there, thank God with Google MAPS, keep going So you do you talk about in ninety nine. The new Orleans Times published this catch and shortly after Dominique quit his job and drove his trailer to Homa, which is who staying within home of there and oh boy, we're talking about another parish and that's where we introduce this main character.

Your book again, another heroic figure, detective Don Bergeron, so tell us about his decision move to somewhere else yeah. If it is done great question, it isn't it. Okay, Dominique is never commented about why he made that move, but I think it's pretty clear that she, the marks on the murders, were beginning to get some attention and, as you point out, they called it. A couple of bodies showed up. She was, and that turned out to be that wasn't signature behavior was just what happened and goalie the I you know this title the year was serial killer, sounds pretty good, not as good as son of SAM, but you list so anyway heaters sites that he's going to take his

he's kind of self came motorhome and he's got him self. A he's got like a car that he uses to pick up the victims, and so what he does is he rich? Is he hitches one up to the other, can go s and I believe that the reason he did that is because cause was getting a little bit too hot for him. In New Orleans, no pun intended, and he goes back to homer and. He he moves in will doesn't move in but he's in the way the driveway or the back. You know the driveway of his sister who lives in in a neighborhood call Bob. Are you hello and individual?

Who live in the in these areas, unknown by that name? So in other words, You live in the body. Blue were able to your blue man if you live in a bar Why blue you know, reading keyboard you know, is why you blew right whatever it might be, so he moves. He moves in with the sister Anne. What's really interesting again about motivation, you know, which is everybody wants to know about is that he has faced Dominique and please an incredible amount of the screen

it's discrimination is the right word ridicule ridicule for being gay and up from his family, but he seems to have a pretty good relationship with his sister, and so that's why he goes there, but I I I think it's very the cultural differences, a very important in this story, because if this was a gay individual growing up in San Fran Cisco, for example, or New York City. I don't think we have this conversation because the individual would have been more accepted, but you're talking about a place where a lot of individuals um. Are not, many of them are not well educated, and if- Dan. If I may I just

I have to tell you that what I did when I went to the town to start. You know the Houma interrupt me at any point. 'cause I just go on and on, but I went to home again and you know, I'm a huge fan of westerns so in in westerns peep well, you know you want it. The Marshall wants information goes into the saloon, so I went to a local bar there. You know an I I have to I have to. Found when I went there to investigate this case, and I want everybody knows, Ronald J Dominique. No, I looked at him like they were crazy are you? Are you kill twenty three people most? in your power she never and of course only Fred Rosen This was two thousand and nine. When I was doing this and Rock Obama had just been elected and, of course, Louisiana was not a state that voted for the president, so course after

Individual, so they never heard of them, and I and I knew they what line I said gee. What do you think of Barack Obama? She uh? That was not the smartest thing to do. I was lucky, I didn't get the fight, but but but the thing is from there after I left or and uh. It was during the day. So I don't even know. If I had you know, I probably had a cup of coffee. I don't like to drink before five this this, despite with Alan Jackson and Jimmy Buffett song about, and so I went, succeed on Birja RON and that opened up all kinds of doors. Absolutely you also, talked about at this time in one thousand. Nine hundred and ninety nine MIKE all Vincent Van

is New year's eve. One thousand nine hundred and ninety nine body found next day dumped on a barbed wire fence marks on yeah and then you say that, and you say, and we're going to stop for a break just for a second, but suddenly the killing stop for two years and at the same time we've got the Btk killer, in Kansas, use this as an opportunity Fred to talk about our sponsor for this program. Today, Brooklyn. Now recently, my wife LISA and I received our set of Brooklyn in queen size sheets cases and of a cover the set was called locks, which is Ford Four luxurious, and that is what the sheets are. Definitely even just the feel of them and the look of them LISA was impressed with the envelope style pillowcase. He said there was very unique now.

You spend a third of your life in your sheets with Brooklyn com. You can get the high quality sheets and bedding you deserve at a price that won't keep you up at night. Most I embedding is marked up by more than three hundred percent by the time it reaches the store, Brooklyn Makes quality luxury sheets and bedding accessible to everyone, Lynn was founded in twenty fourteen by husband and wife, team, Vicki and Rich follow up on the philosophy that people deserve simple, beautiful home essentials without the luxury price? Brooklyn and so unnecessary, markups and manufacturing waste in order to offer exquisite designs and exceptional savings across their collection. When is the fastest growing bedding brand in the world, because people love their products, their sheets of over twelve and five star reviews. They have. The tile, colors and patterns that you can mix and match something. You can't do it a department store, so you can easy

Lee compliment any decor. This is luxury bedding underpriced. You have to try the sheets today, Me and LISA love these Brooklyn and sheets try these sheets, and I know you love them to Brooklyn dot. Com has an exclusive offer. Just for my listeners, gay twenty dollars off and free shipping when you use promo code murder at Brooklyn, dot com- in fact, Brooklyn- is confident you love their new sheets, that they offer a risk free, sixty nine satisfaction guarantee and a lifetime. Warranty on all of their sheets and comforters. There's no reason not to give these sheets to try the only way. Get twenty dollars off and free shipping is use, promo code, murder at Brooklyn and dot com, that's b, Oh okay play: Annie, n dot com, Brooklyn dot com, promo code, murder, Brooklyn. These are the best sheets ever

We last spoke Fred. We talked about Don Bergeron and you about her being a relative novice and a police officer bought someone wanted her. There was a task force formed with Dennis Thornton, and someone spoke very highly of Don Bergeron and sauce. Something in there, and she was on the stats for tell us about this task force that is formed and tell us what happens in the Karere killing career of Ronald Dominique. Well, first thing: we should talk about two things: two things: first, I'm going to buy those sheets. And second I'm from Brooklyn. So there you go, maybe a little autograph from cleaning and but what happens is

Birja RON is her pre sequel to the firecracker be cause. She is she's, an actual She's, a real read, actual: she doesn't discriminate she. She understand people. In fact, one of the things that she told me with that she she was gone from from detail. That dealt a lot with individuals who, according to dawn, they were occasions, and It was fairly common according to dawn the Cajun culture. Where there was a certain amount of of that. So this is somebody who had experience with sexual crime

And- and you know what, if I was casting this year, should it be birth, birth targets in a heartbeat, and so what happens is when they disrupted the your you have going Dominique has laid a war current for couple you weird, but the reason being he got in trouble he the new, a woman in public, a woman and after her, and eventually he was tried and convicted and blah blah blah it's. In other words, the cops actually had the bad guy in custody. They didn't know it well um gone Birja RON, while is paying attention to the bodies that are accumulating Tera bone parish, which is where she is in Houma

and eventually the state police realize You know why we got a lot of bodies here, so they form a quote, unquote escorts and the task force includes detectives from the various parish is the first person. Of course they signed up or signed up was we understand Thornton and when he needs. Birja RON. There is a chemistry between them and they really complement each other quite well, and so, with that point they get together and the, and I should all. Don't mention that in the airforce there is a parole officer which becomes he assault, Muzak hate, and then

And there's actually a parallel in this case to the Dahmer case that will talk about. And not involving, certainly not involving cannibalism, put something else. In any case, Birja RON Thornton's become the the two lead investigators on this thing. Right now you talk about Dominique doing various jobs. He's worked various jobs in life and now he's a pizza delivery guy, which gives him opportunities to learn the city and he continues his killing spree talk about Kenneth fits Gerald Rand off healing near Dominique. Nineteen years old. You also talk about. This person being a pedophile as well like a convey,

did pedophile and he meets Dominique again and what is the state the bodies, that's consistent with the other bodies, not that any. He's making a link between these may king all the links with these people? All these victims tell us what the shared characteristics are, and when do they make this definitive link between all of these parishes that he is killed there. Well, once the the the the the warring is certainly the bmo- their role federal, strangles. Ok, the role and they're all dumped Essentia in public, And- and they realized that this guy is he's pointing the cops he's really, these kind of thing, I'm a lot smarter than you guys come come and get me.

And so great the one gun once of and Bergeron a get together. They realize that all of these cases- were tried together by the MO, and they realize that the individual they're seeking is someplace within Terrible own parish, but the question becomes okay, how do we find this person? And I gotta tell you- something it's so ironic, one of my best friends or forty years, and I had no idea. He grew up in Houma LA and Tera bone parish. He wasn't there. Art, but you know when I spoke to him about it. His name is

against and he's a film director and that's what was so fascinating again that you know this is like, like I call in and out of the way and I also would add that this is a about maybe a year before the deepwater horizon blows up in the Gulf of Mexico with a big oil spill. Well that currently right outside the door, so the detectives get together and now they start putting it together pulling the pieces together and realize the individual that they're seeking is someplace within her parish net. Then the question becomes: how do we get now there is some sightings and there is yet again every day have follow up? Every lead is police have to do, but there is some in

testing lead in terms of a play, Called the sugar bowl motel so tell us: little bit about the sugar bowl motel and what thornton- or where is a burger on? I'm not sure really this is later in terms of the importance of this location. Well, this particular location is the place where some of the victims had been picked up. Heater in the parking lot outside the parking lot of the sugar Bowl Motel in Houma, tried to do is basically steak the place out and but it it doesn't work Becaus. You're dealing with with an individual who is pretty damn smart he realizes there on the sent. Goes the other way, and so they

Don't have the you know, it's it's not like they're going to take it out. You know in the he's going to come and try to pick somebody up and the cops if they are, and you know and and and so forth. That doesn't happen, that's what they're hoping is going to happen, but that's not what happened and it's six extremely frustrating to them and the same that came across to me, as dawn explained how they had to shadow the dot. They had dish that you know the stake, outs and so forth. A lot of this is on their own time. Be cause for whatever reason this state was not giving them the overtime so they get it on the wrong time which took away from the time they would

then, with their families and again I think, that's that's so- indicative up there of their dedication and again to to catching the killer without care bring about the sexual aspect. Other racial aspect, to make any difference to these two cocks they were you know, This is the lone Ranger and Tonto. Basically, you know these. These people don't care about race, they don't care about sex or they care about is somebody is getting murdered and we're going to get him. You're talking about now two thousand and five August and in Hurricane case happens, so disaster in an incredible historical disaster there, but in the

resting person in that. Thorton, Birja RON again thinking outside the- Thornton thinks maybe we should contact those people that were sex offenders and then somebody said he thinks why not contact parolees and Again, that mention you alluded to probation officer becomes a hero, another hero in this Tom Lambert. And he also is on the task force so he's a probation officer of John banning, tell us a little bit about John banning what information that from him is he What happens is he's he's an individual who is the up, what what bye, bye, you're dramani and what Dominique would do where great guy is, he would get. You would show

the pictures you know like nude photos of women or suggest the photos and said: hey, listen. Uh? I got this girl back in my trailer. You want to mess around with it or whatever should actually lures this dude back to his trailer. But she gets back to the trailer and Dominique tries the whole deal with you know he tries to get sex well with Tammy tries to bind him and so forth. That's what's interesting, which is the guy breaks out of the trailer, and he eventually tells his parole officer about it, and so, when Clinton and Bergeron ask the parole officer eight and any of your and and this card was a you know with the Polly any says and so someone Birja RON say to the parole officer. Hey any of you guys know anything about some weird.

Guy blah blah blah and next thing. You know this for a week come forward and tells the parole officer about Dominic, and then this part is actually out of movie, which is They they they, he tells him where it is and they go and they open up. The mailbox. Can I say. And they look at the mail and it says Ronald J Dominic Butter, Bing Botta Boom is tony soprano would say they have their suspect. And then I can talk and then they run go. You talk about this. This they have the mitochondrial dna. No, that's not enough! So what's the next step to be able to get the nuclear dna that they need, the in

order to get nuclear dna. You have to. You have to what he called you gotta get a warrant. Well, there's a couple of things that happened here. What happens? Is they let the FBI now going down and then the FBI next thing you know they got. Helicopters go over the guys house, which is sort of a you know, a a tip off yeah but they're pretty sure they got. You know this is the guy, and so it becomes a question of not only getting the nuclear DNA. That's not enough. You also have to be able to a gift guy

At some other forensic evidence- and or having to be in the visual. In a room where you are you know we do interrogate the individual. And uh, so what they're hoping to do is get some sort of match of nuclear dna, but it really is not going to happen so easily uh and uh. So, in fact, Thornton says: all we had was the model dna match

Good, never locked the purchase will rest. We knew that once we got in the interrogation room with anybody yeah what he might say make matters worse. There's been a media weekly sh, which is the last thing they walk, so it got it yet. The guy in the car, the dance, get the warrant and get the the the dna, but it's even more important. New guy to confess to the crime, because a good defense attorney can The challenge of mitochondrial dna match. So it's really a question of trying to set a trap for the guy, as they did with the sugar bowl motel, which didn't work and.

Slips away from that, and they were really p o'd because he he surveilling him. He went out to kill somebody else. So now it's like ok. What do we do? We've got a model condrey all dna match to one of the victims. We don't have new, clearer, but uh Do we let the guy keep doing what he's doing or do we take a shot, an arrest and that that is the major decisions that they have to make. You talk about one more killing, but there's two more killings he's flip their radar, and it was it's sad to see the these dedicated police officers doing every they can and they know in their heart Hearts that it's this guy. And if you get the money for twenty four slash, seven surveillance on the guy till they go

dna that sure surely tells you that he must be involved or some family member. So it's it's slam dunk and they finally get the money and he still- still eluding them. So it's a desperate seen that you describe that these officers working for over eight years on this sort and over eight years on this, and they know who it is, and they know he has a record- he just hasn't been convicted. The people just didn't show up so they know they have their guy yeah. Tell us about you, talk about another against various, Phil Mask scene where Bergeron wants to make this arrest. She's been in evolve she's in. But she you talk about the sacrificed where these people are working overtime on their own money. I mean they're not being paid overtime, work, so they're volunteering that time and she, but she has promised to take her kid, her daughter to Walt Disney World

so yeah calls the see if it's okay, if she can go and for the promise he made to her daughter, like wow, so tell us what she did as in how, in the end, finally, he is arrested. Well, what happens? Is there waiting to get a match on a one of victor victims? Name is sutterfield and dawn goes to Disney World in Florida and she's with her daughter, and she she and she constant contact with Dennis Thornton. And what finally happened? Is they don't get a nuclear dna match? They get a to get a uh, a minor cause you'll, be an image and- she's at Disney World, and

she, with her daughter. Then the decision has to be made. Ok he's already he's already killed two people, even though we had the drag man out, and so that's in addition to the other twenty one Okay, what do we do and they make a decision that they're going to arrest this guy and try to welcome IBM, yeah, yeah Irrigation and so she leaves Disney world early with her daughter and again, this points out the sacrifices they're, making in their personal life. And finally, she comes back to Tera Bone parish.

And they find out that that Dominique is left his sisters and is looking at some flop out For lack of a better term downtown Houma and the cops are not the cops Primedia's become aware that they're going after the Southern Louisiana serial killer. And they go to arrest them and they arrest them and they pay come downtown to to be interrogated, and that is when they get their able to get. The evidence that they need in order to charge him successfully? You chronicle this painstaking, but really

in cross examination here this questioning of the suspect with the with the goal to not have him lawyer up, speak to a lawyer, so they have to make him comfortable enough and then the idea that he doesn't care who a victim is comes in handy this apathy in general, so there coach is very subtle and they get that maybe can tell us what our goal is in the beginning is two bit by bit make this case, so they do they zero of two murders in particular. How do they approach this? As you write the masterful approach, what do they do to be able to gain the necessary information? to at least say: we've got two well it's what you said. They

make a decision early on that they're going to use empathy they're not going to pressure him they're going to be empathetic they're going to be sympathetic, they're going to listen to him, they're gonna they're, going to ask him questions, not just about the crew art, but his background they're, going to they're going to do for him now they're going to give him The only thing that they don't want to do when they first get him? Is they don't want him to go to sleep so fast because they want to get more information, because, despite the fact that they're going to put he talks about suicide and so forth, they're going to have a suicide watch in the individual? That's all

there's a possibility that guy is going to do it, so the idea is essentially to act as therapist. A lack of better and allow him to tell them what his life it is white. What is life is about and as he does this, he starts confessing to the first couple of murders, but. Becaus these are these police officers are really humanitarians. That's not enough. They're, not interested in just salt solving, quote, unquote or put enclosure. That's the best word on a couple of murders. They want to put closure on old twenty three, and so they have to come up with a way.

To do that and, as you point out without him lawyering up and if anything, if there's any part of the story, that's like a movie. This is the part because they're able to have a discussion with him that last really a couple of days in in which he will wind up confessing to all twenty three murders and then, of course, there needs to be a decision on the part of the prosecutor about what prosecute and so forth and so on, but for them- and I will also say the prosecutor. The idea is to bring closure to the families, and what I just feel is wonderful is how they try

we use them the the families of the victims. Again, they didn't look at this in any sexual word, which is you know and considering the you know, the disk question we've had in this country, guarding the rights of gays and and try ginger people and so forth, and this isn't two thousand and six. This is eleven years ago. These two please but this is the way ahead of their time, as well as the prosecutor, so to him extensively and really trying to be his best friends. They're able to drum out you also talk about how the chip away at this with the two first murders. Getting him, as you say, to talk and sing himself with his own words. He taught

parks lamely about the doesn't seem too swift talks about a lame attempt at talking about this being self defense. Yet in the self the he gave a not right evidence to hang himself and and contract himself of murder with to two and after they have enough for eight. They find we get enough for eight, and then they got it take a break like you say they can, continue their very, very careful. They want to make sure this sticks, but the thing that they realizes that now is the time that they've gained his confidence friended him and listen to his stories, his excuses for why he is the way he is and I'll. Let you tell her audience to some of the things he said About his background that apparently are the reason for his behavior, but they realize and then go went to that room say to him: listen

this really isn't about self defense, and they not so not so our and not very much time they have him admitting what he was claiming about self defense as nonsense. Don't they yeah, and and the reason is actually we're talking about it. What's interesting. Here is just that um. I would be doubtful Dominique is ever talked to other individuals, including therapist. There's no indication here at the we're talking about the ridicule couple of things he he talks about the ridicule daddy faced with his family being gay.

Working on offshore one of platforms and, being Well, he talks about that and then he he talks about at some point is behind bars for something and for some minor crime and he gets raped and screws up his anus, and so he, he is he's afraid of anybody having anal sex with him any any any and what's wonderful is that these police officers do not show any surprise in war in a room in the details, because there's a lot of details that make people very uncomfortable. Not these two cops. There are

there there is sympathetic is as and and- and I believe they were- they were really sympathetic. I don't think it was your stadium. You know an act. I think it's who these people are they're, not sympathetic to the guy killing, but this certainly sympathetic to a individual claims. He was, you know, raised their sympathetic, individual says he was denigrated growing up by everybody, etc, etc, and so the the then the real question comes in ok, how do we clear all twenty three and and that's where it gets? You know interesting where they make a deal. They talk to the prosecutor. Now this is a state than with a x. A few people. There were thirty eight states in the United States where they still have the death penalty on books and Lee

The end is one of them and they use it, but the cops dentist gone and the da decide it's more important to bring closure to these families, so they make a deal. If, if Dominic takes them all twenty three dump sites where the bodies were dumped, they will pay the death penalty off the table and we'll just be sentenced. Sharks quote unquote to you, know eight consecutive terms of life in prison and, of course they confer with the families on And I think in the annals of american criminal justice, this might be one of the best deal. Any venue is ever made with

bad guy, let alone a serial killer, because they're able to clear all twenty three and bring closure to the families- and you know, there's also the possibility, as everybody knows, that an individual like this goes behind bars and then maybe at some point, some guy wants to kill him or something like that. You know what I mean so in terms of boredom quotes death. Guess what do these people? That's, not the most important thing and again what I love about this story is how The s always gets painted as a place where all they want to do is execute and the end be racist and so forth. Not this is about as far from that, as you can get.

You talk about another again film ask seen is that they take him to those dump sites, or he takes pardon me. He takes them to the dump site. 'cause you, as you mentioned. It can't be the other way around. Because of defense attorney will poke big, old with it at in any kind of court case, so he has to take them and right describe that scene for every But he willingly does this send. What's his demeanor tell us demeanor through some of this? he's pretty calm about all of he's pretty calm about this? I I wouldn't say that

showed any sort of remorse. I mean he's a serial killer. What do you extremely call on it, taking them to the downside right? I cannot believe that courts and it's pretty obvious that, because things are stamped list, our poor with him feel free to call at one point he says to them: I'm not a bad person. When I was younger, I was molested. Why are you sure right, family members and people that was supposed to be friends. I was accused by two people of raping them. Wasn't true. So

here's a guy who um. Obviously it's had a screwed up background and the these two cops are probably the only who wants that ever showed him any sympathy or empathy in his life? Can, I believe, that's the reason why she was willing to make. Feel, but he did and give closure to those families. He had trotted out this the idea that these guys had asked for money and then ask for more money. So they dispelled that as a reaction is one of the things they dispelled. He had said things, though you talk about remote it's just interesting. He said I just want everyone to. Forgive me, I'm sorry, I didn't in two December

two thousand and six regardless the the deal was for eight Kenneth Randolph, Michael Barnett Leon LIVE Rat August, Watkins, Curt Cunningham, Alonzo Hogan, Chris Deville Wayne Smith and Nicholas Pellegrin. Thank say: thirty. Relatives of victims are in the courtroom and it was an thing, of course, dramatic victim impact statements, weren't there. Yes, there were, I mean people talked about and again this is the what got me was again. This was covered by the media. Make the local media you know that city Yoon, I think it's.

Homer today is the newspaper there, but not nationally, and these relatives of the victims were able to address in and talk about what they had logged with their with their their their their loved ones, and it breaks your heart when you read it, it really does, and it really does break your heart, and I can't I guess his work talking then. Art you know, I would my question would mark question would be why don't we more professionals in the creek in our criminal justice system.

That have you caught that kind of humanitarian instincts that these two detectives and DA have, but particularly the detectives? You know I I always feel that it has more You would have your raised and I didn't get it could work with Dennis and and and gone. You know I didn't you know. I don't feel that You know some information about our background, but it's pretty obvious to me that they were raised the right way to look at people at this people. Yet you have to say to yourself my god. It through a more individuals like this in the system. It would be a lot ease,

dear Sue, clear cases, let alone when some. You know, somebody like a Dominique is in custody earlier for for something else, which is not a theory. Maybe they would be more empathetic with him. We do- No, if that could change what Happ. And we don't know, but we sure know that that in this case we're not for the fact that Dennis and gone we're still open to talking with him and listening to him and we'll linger for him at the failed harm. Doing their job wouldn't be having this discussion. While you talk about humanitarian, but the media could have been in

press in this story in the media is controlled by no one bought the media. They think that this is society in general, doesn't care about these people and probably proven right with the tree, society has four process it's in general, whether there underage or not, apparently there sex trade workers are hookers. So how much empathy embassy gonna have for a gay sex trade work or prostitute, so you know, and the other thing is. I think, too, that the courts had dealt with Dominique and when complaint over a serious crime can't be found. Sometimes a subpoena that person and force them to come to court You know so there was there was times when the court didn't assess this guy dangerous whatsoever, even though it would seem in retrospect with some pretty serious charges as well. We got

talk about maybe just police training, and it is, is good, but it's just a matter of look at the budget that they couldn't get because they couldn't get national mentioned, because it's new order, because again the victim again they couldn't get funding, seems to me incredibly that they couldn't get even with incredible Evans. They had twenty four slash, seven surveillance, but, like you point out, if it's, if it's white victims or victims of a different occupation, you know, I think it's, it's not just to be laid on a police force. I think, because I think, there's a there's a lot of blame to go over around. Basically with this, even with this case with twenty three victims, it seems like everyone has an idea of the more innocent victims. To be the better victim? Yes, and that very eloquent- and I agree with that- and.

I will also tell you that I had in trying to get this book published. It took a long time because. Our I know an editor and a major house who said to me uh about the case you're writing a book about Dominique. I said she he said, he's gay anything gay guy it went on interest yeah. You know it's like excuse me here. They think that readers and research are going to discriminate in that respect as if it makes any difference, and I've always felt that I will.

You know that's not the case. In fact, I did the first book years ago on an african american serial Killer and uhm. You know so I mean I've been warned for years. Don't write about black bad guys. Ok and here's the situation where we got a guy who's, gay picking on gays individuals were gonna, publish that well, you know and the media. Some just went along with this. You know there was a complicity. It's not a conspiracy, and I understand this ok. I understand that What, when you start talking about a tv show, whatever tv show, it might be, whether it's a it whether it's you know where he has a magazine, show or yeah. You know I want something. You know what

a true crime. Reality show you're selling. You know you got commercial you're you're selling girl. You know breakfast cereal, whatever and people don't want to hear these kinds of details, at least that's what the individuals in power. Thank, I don't know I don't know if that's the case or not. All I know is that's not the way I was raised. You know and I felt that it was more responsibility to speak for the dead and and just as dawn and dentist it, and you know what happens in the future. Maybe things will change your little bit since you know this social climate is certainly in a state of flux. Here you know

Hi sometimes I feel like the United States is way behind other places. However, that's done the way it is, and I know I'm not supposed to get. The ball we talk about you talk about in the end of the book, because you really want to say that this book really couldn't be done without actually the help of Don Bergeron yeah send Dennis Thornton, but especially Don Ronso, seemed to talk about this interaction. You had for this book and of then you get to know her a little bit and find out a little bit more about her background. So tell us a little bit about this meeting and just as you do in the book, tell us about this meeting between you and Amber's run. Well, we

that we met inner office, and I remember that she had a picture of the task force and this when we met it was two thousand and nine. So it was one two three years after they say after the case was you know they bust them, but and she was very, very, very open. The only time I never received this kind of cooperation from defective was in Florida, which has. First, open records law, I believe, on the books of all fifty states, but soon as she she really said: cred I'll, take I'll give you all the I'll give you all the people working there and then she takes me to dump site. Little between doing that. We stopped in at some local place to have lunch

and we ran into about all the must- have been about eight cops there from the parish and we sit down. Stone and uh and uh. They they they wanted to You put. My reaction was to do a french, fried alligator gimme, a break, No, I mean you know so you know so they ordered it and and I ate it and of course I said it. Tasted like shit- and I probably should have said things that I'm a jewish boy from brooklyn- I probably should have said- is this kosher but like this and uh, you know she was just as friendly as could be and that by the way, that's the other thing you know I I didn't hide with my really

game an you know, there's still a little thing called Anti Semitism that exists in the United States, particularly in certain stage, and particularly among certain individuals. Nobody cared about that there they care about that. Nobody said anything to me: I never got any Vive, she didn't say anything we just we just hit it off and I think it's be cause and we're talking. I think this case really really bothered her and it stayed with she wanted to get the truth out about what happened. Somehow they bought this guy to ground. Uh And so I I feel like I was particularly lucky with my

her and I'm not a judgmental person either. So you know, I think she probably picked up on that, and I think that, as a result, we you know we hit it off and I'm certainly certainly. Fred, I want to thank you for coming on and talking about the buy used, Wrangler Louisiana's, most gruesome serial killer for those people that don't know you, as you point out, spoke at the end or the publisher does you're the author of twenty five books. Now, with the last one. Murdering the president, two thousand five hundred and twenty five books tell us. A little bit about the publishers of this book and where they my be able to get ahold of you, I know you're, very, very active and out there so tell us

well, they've been living under a rock, how they might contact You get ahold of you find out about your work. Tell us a little bit about that! Well, first, you can send up the bat signal if that doesn't work right, actually Avengers Age Q in upstate, New York, but seriously. So if anybody wants to get ahold of me, it's you can just go on Facebook and send me they uh an email that first open road media is the publisher of this book. It's available in you know, Bookstores, Barnes and noble, etc. I don't even know any other book stores that are around the sides: Barnes and noble, and it's kind of course, Amazon dot com available. Also in as an ebook or and uh. All you got to do is just you know.

Look on the you know the links you were to order it, and you know, of course, we'll send it right to your house, hopefully with your sheets yeah, absolutely tell blonde bookstores and it's available at Amazon dot com, it's available as an ebook and it's available as a hard copy and one of the things I was particularly happy about quite frankly was: I hope it was reasonably priced. I'm I'm always big on that again. I always work with the publisher when I not that opportunity to make sure it's reasonably priced, because I know how hard I listening work for the money all over the world and I want make sure that they get value for the dollar. That's very important to me. Absolutely Fred, thank you very much once again coming on and talk, the Bayeux strangler hope to talk to you again real soon. You have a great evening,

Fred Rosen. I really appreciate it on with you. Always you sure are a great anything I'll talk to you. Thank you, Fred. You make this all worth. While I have a great evening, you think bye, bye, bye,. This program has been brought to you by Brooklyn and you spend One third of your life in your sheets Brooklyn and makes luxury sheets and bedding accessible to everyone, use promo, code murder at Brooklyn, dot com for twenty dollars off and free shipping, cold code, murder at Brooklyn, DOT, com, goodnight.

Fall is finally here and so his old Navy's big fall sale get thousands of styles from this five dollars. All your fault, favourites are on sale, now, layer up with five dollars tees and ten dollars, long sleeve tees for the whole family and stock up on sweaters and dresses for just fifteen dollars, plus save even more without the seventy five percent off clearance. Styles, don't miss out hurrying for thousands of styles from this five dollars now at old Navy in oldnavy dot com valid one thousand and fifteen to one thousand and twenty five select styles. Only hi, it's Jamie Progressives number one. Two employee leave a message at the Hey Jamie: it's been Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your Acapella group, Matt Harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean you're, the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name, your price tool. It should be you given me the pep talk now get out there hit that high note and take mad harmony, all the way to nationals this yeah. Sorry

Progressive casualty, insurance company, affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law.