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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening within the pages of the Bundy secrets,

open files of America's worst serial killer is a unique. Never before published. Look at the investigations undertaken to stop the depredations of America's most infamous serial killer, TED Bundy. Send it to you in an easy to follow. Chronology are the raw unedited in most fascinating official case files, as he appeared to the detectives from the Pacific Northwest to the rocky mountains to Florida book Three and Sullivan's, the Bundy Trilogy the Bundy murders, a comprehensive history, the first book in Sullivan's, comprehensive trilogy was a dramatic narrative of the killer's life and book to the trail of TED Bundy. Digging up the untold stories was dedicated to recollections of various friend witnesses and detectives associated with Bundy. Now the Bundy secrets, complete Sullivans,

purpose by presenting readers with a just the facts, rendition of the formerly classified files of the manhunt as well temporary interviews gathered by Sullivan from dozens of sources along Bundy's trail of terror. This is a must have for two crime: students of TED Bundy. The book they were featuring this evening is the Bundy secrets, hidden files on America's worst serial killer. With my special guest journalist and author Kevin Sullivan, welcome back to the pro Thank you very much for agreeing that his interview, Kevin Sullivan. Well, thank you Dan for having me it's always a great time that we have on the show talking about the books and stuff like that. So I'm looking forward to it absolutely You for returning again always good to talk to you especially good to talk to you about TED Bundy yeah. Now this is the third book, as we mentioned, and the just the trilogy the end

of this yet long examination of TED Bundy. Not in this you have, we reproduce various entire portions of the official record, so you say people can read and appreciate all that's in there and you get pulled out it out of the archives, did original interviews and put it all together. Now- and we also talked just just before the program about what you've also included, is one the most fascinating parts of this is the long hidden story of Louise Cannon We have spoke with Bundy only a couple hours before he kidnapped and murdered Melissa Smith, which was about more blocks away. So tell us a little bit about the reason for or the difference between what is the,

Monday secrets? What does it give those people that have never read anything about Bundy but, more importantly, the people that think they know everything about Bundy? What does Kevin Sullivan provide in the Bundy secrets? Well, folks are let the audience know for some people out there that might not be familiar with with with all three of the books, not first book was the Bundy. There is a comprehensive history. Now that was my first book about and it was an in depth biography of the man and a deep look at the murders. It was aware I was able to uncover. New and never before published important, for may shun about, here for the murders and a lot of new information in general. And that's that's the book that really put me on the map as a true crime, writer and so again,

I didn't think I would write anything else. Past that made in twenty fifteen, I decided to write a companion volume to that and that book was called the trail of TED Bundy digging up the untold stories and in that book Bye every trace, Bundy steps. I describe the locations how they appear. Today I took photographs and I also interview a lot of people. Then uh. Never been interviewed before and got all that. Definitely in print a lot of testimony from from Bundys Mormons Friends in Utah and so I thought again that that would be it now the What usually happens when I write a book, especially the book about Bundy? I have people contact me after the book is published. I mean they just come out from various directions are usually friends of the victims

I don't think I've anybody so much a contact me that was, connected to Bundy, but I sure have had it happen, a lot with friends of the victims, and so what happens is for the second book was published. I'm gaining all this new testimony and I- number one. I published a second book, the trail of TED Bundy. I put in that book very a case file portions of case files that I thought would be interesting to to to the reader. Now. What makes this last book it in this trilogy. So interesting is that the entire book is a republication of the case of of many of the case files that I have found most the most important and they are most of 'em are in their entirety. Now I have, I had to pick and choose B But if you were to publish everything, that's out dedicated files, you have a book with like

give me ten thousand pages, but I have picked out back, which is important and I got to do something in the Bundy Secrets Secret that I never thought I would be able to do. I remember researching for the Bundy murders all of these case files, thousands, and that not my personal file it's probably somewhere in about eight eight. Seventy thousand pages it could be a little bit more. It's probably probably the range and reading this stuff, I thought my gosh. I pick and choose from these various case files to put in the book. I thought to myself: wouldn't it be nice if one day people could read these files, like I'm having a chance to read them to see all of this stuff. That's in here that's interesting, really interesting. But you can't put everything in the book and I thought well, but that's never going to happen because the only way you can see something like this is.

To go into the archives and dig it out, and you can do that if you want to, but you know ninety nine point: nine percent of the population, is never going to do that, though, as I began to receive new testimony from people after that. My second, you know book was published. I thought I'm going to do something I never thought I'd be able to, what to do. When I have my publisher that they agree with it, I'm going to do it. I said how about a book on the case file. The unedited raw case file that people could see what it I really like it. I knew what I would be presenting to them, because these case files are exceedingly interesting and they like the idea. So that's what this book is and people are going to be able to see stuff. There's not another, look like it on Monday out there. That shows the case files like this,

And with that, I have a chapter at the end with all new brand new testimony of various people who knew Monday are you knew the victim. So worked on the case, so yeah, it's it's a really unique book. So, as you put all three books together To make this trilogy each one of the little bit different, but they all. Well together. Very well, and I like, like, I often say after writing, some six hundred plus pages in these three books Look the at all, I'm very bright in article one today about him, something new comes up, but there will be a fourth you know on the block anyway,. I think this is you set up to the first one I'll have to look that up. Anyway, I did you started that you start this book in the murders began in the Washington state in early nineteen seven,

four and you would say, would take over eighteen months before Bundy became a primary suspect, and you have some fascinating stuff about that. So you first start off with the wash intend Utah and Colorado reports and victim. Linda Ann Healy from Seattle, and you say that this abduction is unique and so tell us why you think this is in the annals of true crime. What's the uniqueness of this and the strangeness and the tell us about this abduction, yeah Bundy tell us why you think it is yes, so fascinating and unique as well. Ok, yeah, it really yeah. So you can take the Linda Ann Healy, murder. I mean I'm so be two years old, having writing to cram a number of years. I've been reading about true crime. Since I was ten years old,

anything like the Linda Healey abduction and I don't ever expect to encounter anything like it, and so here's the set up on that there there were fat But like tropical wave to head to head win as a room at home in one in the university district in Seattle on I think at twelve street, and you know it's just a neighborhood house, a nice big house, and if you go up to the front of the house, you have to walk up some step, and you walk up to sets of steps, so it it's steep and they have a free Door or you work up, walk up the first set of steps and you can go around and there's a side door. That's on the side out of the house but lead down to the basement. Well, TED Bundy one night he went in there and he probably was following

Linda and Healing, and her friends from a place called Dante's tavern, which is a few blocks away on Roosevelt Ave. Any pry follow them home, an he intimated to Steve and Michelle that after dark. He tried the front door saw that the handle was open and and he, but he did not go in air- is what he did later that night in the middle of the night. I guess when they he went to bed around? One hundred am something like that and the lady next to her drifted off around one one. Thirty. They were separate in the basement by partition of plywood. It was two ru things down there. So we, buddy did. This is just astounding, isn't this stuff up fiction, but it's true. He came down. He came through the front door he he most likely did. He went down to the basement steps.

And he went in Linda Healey's room and he chose after into unconsciousness. That's what he told Michelle in the third person. Speaking of what that person probably did, he he didn't beat her She started to bleed, she started. Have a nosebleed at ran behind her. Al Gore knows not undo the sheet. You know you know that was there. She was and they're on their back, so he chokes Orinda, unconsciousness uh. I don't know she was sleeping in the nude, but he moved off of the bed. He took the night the little ninety off of her or whatever yeah. That's right! That's right! Good 'cause! She did add that along, but I don't think she had probably anything else. Somebody took that off of that had blood on it and he hung stuck in the closet. He then made

bed. If you can imagine this, he made the bed, he grabbed up like a book bag and he put some clothes in it and we don't know if you cover up with a sheet or a blanket or anything. But what he did was he holder up the steps and he went out that side door now, there's only two ways that you can go, you can go around. The few feet will papi in your turn right and you can download. Steep steps onto the street now keep in mind in the university district, their ST lights. There's kids, there's a you know it. It may not be a lot out at that time, but you never know who you're going to run into in the university district. So he takes the reader that way and puts in this car and leave. Or he had one other option he can go to the back of the house. If you, doctors VW in the alleyway and

We could put her in there, however, the alley- way is so narrow you almost affect We are blocking it. If you do that, then you also run a risk with that. Also, you expose yourself to anybody looking out of the window on the of all that, so they normal doctor. You would think Probably not do that that way, so he doesn't kill her there, but he takes her from there problems are into unconsciousness and takes her from there and ends up so away and nobody is the wiser not to me. That's a nixie, Dakshin and nobody in the house woke up. Nobody heard a thing to think about he took down to make the bed. Is that something that that that you would do- or I would do if I was in the doctors of doctor- I know I wouldn't do there- I would get out of there as quickly as I could, but no he made the bed. She didn't even make her bed. That's water, help mate said that's what they said.

She. She might do it on the weekend, but she got up so early to go to the radio station. When do the ski reports he had to be there like at six hundred and thirty, am and through the week, she never made the bed and she up on her bicycle in the morning and go so that is the Linda Healey abduction. As I say it never heard of anything quite like that now just to do a contrast to what you have is you have now in the book you reproduce a letter from a a friend named TIM Clancy yeah. So it speaks again to just a total contrast that TED Bundy was so tell us what he has to say about his friend and how I'm really how he knew TED Bundy. Well, yeah! That's interesting because

The guy who wrote that letter his name is Leri Bosh. All he the way a number of years ago, even before I wrote to Bundy Mark, but I, but I have talked to plant the on the ball. I actually got is, is you know, permission to use that better in the first book. Actually Mcfarland. Actually you know required it, even though the part of the public record and what I did for the Bundy murders. I use a very small portion of that, but and see and the Bundys secrets I use at all and it's a very long letter well to give people the Back story Clancy liked him. You know Bundy and they worked on some political camp. Games together? Now, Larry Ball Show, I wasn't that impressed with Bundy an I tell the story.

In the Bundy murders of how Marshall went rafting with Bundy and these girls, and there were some other people there and Bundy. It's like his personality changed, and he did some things of that. To is date that you know to where you put the remote, She was in a little raft bangin. He act like he was a cut, the string, so she'd float away and then he ended her top is a joke. Balsall didn't like what he saw the Bundy So his opinion of Bundy was pretty low anyway, but be that as it may, when it turned out that they were looking at Bundy, you know as the ones who have done these things. It surprised, but you have also and Clancy Clancy was off in. He was actually in Europe He was he was in ITALY and I

I say in the Bundy murders that he was living there, but actually he wasn't. He was, and I correct that actually this, but he was actually there in ITALY he was visiting and it weeks after that he was going to be in Paris, but Soval shall contacted him. What I found interesting, even though Clancy liked him there's a portion in that where he talks about You know we don't want to think like I'm going to paraphrase here. That Bundy is this way that he could be this paint, but I mean they were considering it it most people that New Bundy wouldn't even consider that he could be involved in that, but this converse. In between Laree Voshell and TIM Clancy's. Clancy basically says to him. You know

you could tell that he was considering it also. Clancy said something smart. He said. Keep this to yourself now don't report it, and I paraphrase again to the authorities: Becaus they'll, take anything out see now it's fact, and he was- need to think about this for a while, because he had just received a letter, but it is, real interesting insight into now his friends had to come to terms with this. Now I've spoken people. Beyond TIM Clancy, I mean I've spoken with Log Davis, Work closely with I spoken to the Lazarus and and and some other people and all of these phone they gradually had their own epiphany as Esteban these guilt and it

name at different stages. Now I remember Aws David Davis Said- and I quote this in the Bundy murders, but but he said it was over a period of time when, like circumstantial, just cook kept, adding up and heading up and heading up that we did I did yeah. This is the the the killer of all these women in in the northwest. If it's Monday it was a real shock and I remember one of his friends said, and I quote that sell it in the book His name is escaping me right now. He said after, but after this happened, he said we had two about re, evaluate what we believe about even our own friends, and so you know it shook these people up. I thought the TIM Clancy Letter back back back Tulare works. Tulare then turned over to to be at the

or may yeah that actually yeah Larry would have had to have done that. I thought it was very insightful and there's a few things. Clancy says in that letter and the way he says them, they're just very, very interesting, so you can. You could tell that he Even then, even though it was new, he was given some real thought to the possibilities of TED being being the killer of all these women in just an interesting letter. You include, after this one of the most fascinating and important parts of this book is. Interviews with Liz, Klopfer or aka, and did, you say, did men in September, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine. So tell us a little bit about this Liz, Kendall and always contained in what she had to say. Well you know g.

You have to really feel sorry for this lady. She was she seems like a really nice lady list candle. I mean she still in Seattle today. She got married after this fiasco with Bundy and and I think her husband passed away, but I've seen a recent picture over and she looks just the same. She's older, because, like all of it, okay, but you know she open her life up to TED and and she really loved him- and you know it was good to her. You know the most part was good. Her daughter Tina. An uhm. You know they had a good relationship for a long time, but then you know this other stuff start popping up and when, when Bundy became a soft even before it became a close packed with the police, so much people were pointing out to her the similarities of the one that they're looking for again. Volkswagen and the composite drawing kind of look like her her boyfriend, things

started to change in listen and as this in Navigation grew. She spend the rest of her time going back and forth believe but he's not the one believing that he is the one her heart was. Why We need to do the right thing she wanted to. The authorities that he was the one she would feel guilty, though he's not look what she's doing too. The relationship. And you know she is the one people are not really familiar with her. She he's the one who wrote the book afterwards called the phantom prints and it's a really interesting book. That book. It's never been reprinted. I even know somebody who was who tried to talk her into returning the book To do another addition of it, but she

I want to do it and, but so she wrote this book and it's got a lot of insight on from her perspective, how that relationship was. But she goes in that book by the name of candle and to respect her privacy. I've always used the nameless scandal, but it is quote for and she's originally from she was originally from Utah and she moved there. She was married once and divorced dad. You know her daughter with her first, and uh, but I have, I think at least two of the deposition that they took of her or the conversation that the detectors I know once Jerry Thompson and I think I reveal an another officer flew to Seattle, and you know we talk.

And they recorded it, and so there's a transcript in the book, but yeah she'll pop up quite a bit, but their story is quite interesting. They met in nineteen sixty nine at a Seattle tavern and From then on, you know they, you know they hitting it off off and they were a couple guys standing from Bundy's perspective as much as he didn't want to lose Liz as a girlfriend. He was never faithful to her he's to keep other women sequestered from her, but he wasn't paper or in Washington

Of course he was nine years old and of course he was also a murderer, but kids love for her love. The same was not the same as her love for him, but it's an interesting side story, and so you know I look at a person like Liz Candle and her daughter and in a sense they're just as much victims of other people. No, they just had a different. Kind of LOS but she's in there quite a bit which amazing about TED Bundy again, is this. This conflicted person this. Almost a split personality for lack the term and eat you say in one thousand nine hundred and seventy two. He worked at of all places, Harborview Hospital in the mental health unit and any work He dated sandy Guinan. He worked for the government Evans Campaign Republican campaign in Seattle in the fall of nineteen. Seventy two. He worked for the Seattle Crime, commission

yeah. I work for Republican Party in Olympia, so he started in nineteen. Seventy three began law school at the University of Puget Sound as a night student, and he worked for the Department of Emergency Services in Olympia. So this is where there are a lot of people in this book that you've interviewed that no but TED Bundy from that and as you say when they make their own realization epiphany. That TI is a person, but to say the he had to do. A life is a and understand right now, where you know what's interesting about this help, not going into murder, I mean he was making a name. Himself. He was he was he very well liked They not gone in the murder. He would have gone He would have become the attorney that he wanted to. You know become He have no doubt practice in Washington. State even know that guy

I'm involved in politics who knows he Maybe one you know the governorship okay, he he had friends in Seattle and throughout Washington State who really liked him and would have doors for him. So you have to look at it like he's going through the motions- and There may have been times when he really thought, and I covered this in the Bundy murders. For example, I talk about this. Well, on the lighting net worth you know, there's there may have been times when he thought Maybe I can go that way, but he had this other stuff inside eating at him and uh. That's what makes you know he killed before nineteen. Only four, we don't know because Ann Marie Burr in one thousand nine hundred and sixty one, but he may have, but he killed one thousand nine hundred and seventy

three: he may have killed my seven hundred at one thousand, nine hundred and fifty nine. Those are possibilities, but get busy killing in probably one girl in seventy three, but one thousand nine hundred and seventy four was different. When he did launch himself in the murder. In January of nineteen seventy four money. Didn't make a public announcement. But what he was doing was forever dislodging himself from what was normal world. He was getting rid of everything in his thought process that once held him to a life that could be considered normal. He started shirking his duties in the political He was committing murder. That's all only thought about. He only did enough after these murders started in seventy four

to create a persona that he was still a normal person, but everything within Bundy during one thousand. Nine hundred and seventy four and Beyond was just about murder. You think about this. He knew his life was going to be Sala Terry. It was going to be predatory, He was going to be like a lone wolf, where shark out there just hunting women to kill. That was it there. There wouldn't be a marriage there wouldn't be children I wouldn't be sitting down, or you know, at home, with your family watch and watch on the nightly news. It's gonna be predatory and that's how he conducted the flight so something it happened in him when he totally weather doggo yeah not cover this in the Bundy murders. So you know You got- and I cover something in my first book, where it talks about how he didn't show up

like a caucus and letting him Helen W had to take his place, and so he was letting these things go by the wayside and I'm sure It's compadres in the in trouble political, the republic. The party will not liking that he jerking off but yeah. He probably didn't come out and say: look I'm just leaving it. He just started to pull back and uh. People started to notice so yeah, it's an interesting life, we don't know when that actual pivotal time came. But we do know- and I say this in my first book- that the end of nineteen seventy three for Monday but that ending in that bigger behind those. But it's interesting that he took that the dawn of nineteen seventy four January launch himself into this world of murder. It was almost like a celebratory gesture to himself that he was

becoming something like new in that new year, and so whatever happened to him, it pushed him over completely. The edge, and he was ok with it, and I also say things like You know there would be no exit ramps, he wouldn't need them. He was heading down let's roll the murder and then follow But then, if you look at his murder, in Florida I mean he was like. I thought talk about this shark that move through a lot of time starts with Solitaire E. They just moved through the ocean. Looking for food money bag Florida was just moving through oceans of people. He was slightly separated from family friends? Everything that he knew all he was was moving through oceans of people? This was it like a shark looking for people to kill, that's what his wife had been, the extraordinary situation when you look at the life of a serial killer like this,

how you go from, I mean I couldn't have named it this okay, I didn't get to pick the time All of the book Ivan about name it from hot. There are two electric chair and just think of that I really want to think of a little kid in high chair being electric do one day in an electric chair, but this same covers his life. My first book at the bottom three covers his life. From start to finish, and it's interesting to see like it's right in front of you, it's just a big parade of it. You know going by that's so pivotal late, one thousand nine hundred and seventy three and early one thousand nine hundred and seventy four that's the line of demarcation that propelled bunny, something propelled him over into that realm of murder to where he never again come out.

Have it, nor did he want to fascinating to see actually now. Another part of this fascinating part of this book is the actual twenty four hours surveillance reports of right once they know that the zero in on bundy- and they say you put in the book- is the suspect is to be watched we'll see as possible not to be arrested or confronted in anyway, and you say that they knew the new everything virtually about the guy had a girlfriend who was an eight year old daughter. They knew everything about her. They also knew these friends name Marlon Wortman and his wife man is, they knew where they lived. They didn't think too highly this workman guy. Who was an attorney tourney they had this rifle down. They knew his sister was named Linda. She was in Tacoma even today, at his again

in a normal see he would stay at his parents, John and Louise is place sometimes. Ah so you talk about this surveillance, so tell us more about what is entailed in that report on their surveillance and what you found the most interesting and unique and new in that report sure the just just just to set this up for for the audience when when body had been arrested for the attempted kidnapping of of character launch and he was arrested in charge with that. He had been arrested actually in August of seventy five as a they thought he might be suspected burglar, but this The murder kit they found in his car the detective said now. This is for More than just burglaries, it's worth

time, somebody up and then later, but this is in August and then later in the fall. You know Johnson link him to the adoption, the attempt of the box in the garage, so he was due to stand trial in that trial. No, he made bail after of appeared of time. In the in the late fall of nineteen seventy five and he had no restrictions on travel and so Jerry Thompson pick up the phone and called the folks in Bob Bob Kaplan and his crew. And let them know that Bundy has no restrictions on travel. He's released on they'll he'll be standing trial for the

introduction of Karola Raj come like February of nineteen. Seventy six and just just actually a few months and uhm, and so They said you know we're letting you know this ok Those are the women in your area and the Washington state. People were already fully aware that he may come home and they had been discussing. Things are quite do what they were doing a profile on Monday with a couple psychologists in in Washington State and they they suggested that they needed to put a tail. The police need to put a twenty four hour surveillance on Bundy and they keep pressure on them. Why? Because Not you know to write them, but Dany, and this was a tale where they wanted him to know they were trailing. They did not want me. I did not know so that he would not be inclined

To go and murder another in a woman I added a little bit of these of that time. Home just a little bit in the Bundy murders, but I didn't, I didn't add it in its entirety like I, you here and it's it's a fascinating look at it because you when I'm reading it you know these cops are telling where he stopped what he did how we tried to get away and if you remember, there's Bundy once gave them the slip. In the University of Washington he had gone into a bathroom. They waited for him to come out.

Yeah there was a door leading out of the other way and they actually, you know, you'll get a real gave this one cop couples swept so I meet. It's just a fascinating look, and you know this. These reports are so interesting because they tell where he went and people that want to go back and track that Today they can go back to these locations today and see where he gave looks left work rather just jog away from them or where he you know mark where the address the block. You know one of the police officers guard. So it's it's interesting and, like I say there is no deep. You know what your revelations as two murders or stuff like that like came out first, but very, very, very interesting stuff. I mean when I'm reading this over the years. I've read these things and sit there, and I regret that people can't won't

people to see this stuff, because they'll never go in the archives. That was the thing that drove me to want to put all these in book form Becaus how you felt than when you were reading, and I'm sure you found that they were very interesting. That's the opinion of most people. They just it's fascinating, just to see this stuff. Now you talk about in this surveillance and again talking about this that city of his attorney O'Connell. I was at that time receptive to plea bargains where eventually Bundy refused will talk about this later, because it is much later, but he did refuse an offer of life sentence in Florida. Then, took him to the electric chair there. So, let's talk about which I found very very dressing is the late great Ann rule,

Stranger beside me, so definitely a person that was more than intimately inextricably involved with TED Bundy. You include good and interesting two hour and fifteen minute uh conversation that they have and tell us where what point Ann Rule is that at this point, how much does she know about her friend TED Bundy and then tell us more about the two hour and fifteen minutes media okay out what included yeah. That's very! It's very interesting. It is an animal book. She said they met. I'm I'm going to give us all of my head. Uh. I think she said that they met for like three hours, but they actually, less than that, but and I'm sure the police are right about the time factor because They were trailing him and and and and noting everything, but what happened was he he

he was going to eat it for lunch. You gotta understand that and rule to him Ann rule, a friend to him. I think love you, Dan Rulan other people all about the same, and he was about using people. And so I don't know how much of a friend Bundy was to her like I don't know how much of a friend money with anybody, but he used people and especially used women, so you know, but they had this meeting and that happened to coincide on the same day. That Monday and I covered in the first Ok gone through the University of Washington and he got into an argument with some people. I a couple of law students who ask him to leave saying basically you're not welcome here, so he left earlier. I think and that that may have happened, I'd have to go back and check my book. I think that squabble happened in may law library, I'm not sure, but but it was something 'cause it's in the police report and so

you left earlier than he wanted to from the university any met Ann rule in a french press in downtown Seattle. Now we'll make some interesting comment. She said, and I explain this in my book. She said that it wasn't in the mood for something and if money sat there. Look at her. He kept avoiding her eyes now she didn't come out and say You're not looking at me, but she noticed that and she was a stupid woman and she must've must've. Look like to hurry at something to hide. So she may have had her doubts about dead, but by and large I think she tried to believe the best of him throughout the thing and later he came to the realization that of course he's guilty, and you know Jerry Tom,

and told me you had a couple conversations with her when when TED was in jail in utah- and he basically said just Dan thanks with he's innocent. Okay, if you call a doctor, may say your your your your old alt two to two and an innocent man. Well, I mean to also knew he was guilty. And so you know Andrew wasn't saying that could be saying it so she obviously believed it, but that that I love Ann rule is not that surprising, because at that time a lot of people in Washington State believed He was being framed. So that was pretty common later every as I say, everybody had their own epiphany and it came. For Ann rule as it did for everybody else. Think of it is they came at different stages and at different times, and I don't know where If I mean she, she may have gotten all the way to Florida. Ok,

I don't know somebody told me that they thought that's when she probably got it. During the trials there, but I I can't swear to it but yeah. It was an interesting thing, but- you get the feeling when you read what she says about that meeting, that TED spent the time, obviously discussing himself Discussing what they were doing and you to him, you you you just hear him now. You know complain mean about them and how badly he's been, and it would it would the same old thing out of Monday. However, she kept noticing he wouldn't look at her, and that is the tell tale sign of somebody. That's trying to hide something. So I think we'll picked up on that it must have been an interesting meeting and I don't think she was aware of it. Bundy may have been at that

probably was, but I don't know if you meant to do, but the cops were outside waiting on it. They purchased. They were tailing him constantly. Now, even with the cop, the tail they would lose him. Sometimes one thing: that's interesting and I can't remember the date. It was December for list of seventy five or not. That may have been when they first were able to really start tagging Monday, but he had gotten there actually in November and for a couple weeks they couldn't locate it, which must have been very, very frustrating to the investigators, but they they probably got a call from somebody and they were able to find out where he was and from then on. It was like that twenty four slash seven deal, but it's interesting.

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com, slash murder. When we last left off, we were talking about the twenty four hour surveillance Kevin. What I found interesting again in this incredibly interesting and fascinating book is also you talk about a woman that was a potential Bundy them and then the counter at Lake SAM Ash or summer. Ashish. Sorry about that her name was Jackie pushy, so tell us how the woman that got away from Bundy and the rules that he used in that instant incident. There were you know I we actually talk about her there.

The number of people. That would not follow him on that date in Lake Sammamish. Actually, so I could see where that does it can be for some puppet of a tongue twister, but Lake Sammamish is where this occured July 14th one thousand nine hundred and seventy four. To be honest with you, I can't remember if she's the lady that followed him all the way to his car she may be, but, There were a number of them, but one lady who did that she, you know, I think it'll. Two people saw his car parked in a certain area. It's done the lie that he need. He had cancer However, on his arm, it need help getting his boat off. Then they go there and they say: oh well, it's not here. I was always up at my parents house in Issaquah. So you know

most of the I'm sorry I can't go on meeting somebody else at all that okay is real nice, but in the course to get you know yeah on the morning to go He doesn't think with her keeps her life and then it gets gets the other lady. Did he snap of later in the afternoon, but they put a ski report. I think I'm pronouncing her name right. I quote a quote from her from that report in the first book, but there are some additional stuff in it too. We you talked about. She had seen some photographs with him later on. A lot of these people were some of these people came forth right away and then some of the people that were at the lake that day came a number of months later. There was a guy named Jerry Snyder. He was a DEA agent. He was a interviewed well,

For a number of months I can't remember how long, but it was a pretty long time and but he was able to tell the story and he had a good good memory. But as far as the details with her speech, so they can't remember there's so many of 'em can't remember exactly which one she was. She's the woman that was just before Naslund. So she put in the yeah you talk about how he used the sailboat ruse but She told them. Listen, I'm not very strong and he says well. He says I. He said you told me she was. She said she was. Waiting for someone and he said: ok, I see and he walked away in the use

within minutes he stopped and convinced the nation Asselin believe with her okay, yeah yeah, yeah yeah. He, okay, that's right! She she was later in the afternoon she's not the only one. There was a number of other ones that blew him on right there at the end and like I say in the book my first book the blending words, I say he was tired. He was actually nursing a cold Ann, but why he wanted to abduct two and one day I don't know by the time he got back to the later that afternoon that keep in mind he had done whatever he wanted to do sexually with, with with the with the I thought that he did not get killed her. And he had a secured somewhere and when he went back to the park he had to been exhausted. He was very tired, and I say in the book I say that

you know he was getting revoked from a lot of people. He just was, but I said it's a numbers game and he knew it and that's true, and so he might have a little edgy, but you know he knew how pull on the charm. If someone became receptive to him, so not only did whiskey had to say no to him, but in uh for people, blew him off, and you get the sense that he was a little less cordial with the people not angry, but a little less cordial a little less fawning over them. If they couldn't go, I mean, if you look at how he treated the women in the morning who couldn't who couldn't help him. With exceedingly nice, even ones that fall into it I can't do it. All that's okay. I should have told you

realize. A lot of that was almost completely absent from this afternoon, thanks if they just weren't going to do it with one girl. He just walked off and and and said nothing every day we could get messages walked off well, he was tired and so right right. After putski, he ran into Denise Masline, who was coming out of the restroom, and I was probably about four hundred and twenty pm, and you know her boyfriend and the other people she came with, and that's really sad That is, she had no plans to go there. That day, she actually got a call. Her boyfriend got a call from somebody and they It was like a spur of the moment thing. And uh yeah she just decided to go to be nice. You know, and- or that was that so she became the second victim of today, but that double up that's another thing, a double abduction,

what in the war at another thing that stands out about Bundy, a double abduction from Lake Sammamish is about forty thousand people there. That day, forty thousand people one group- was police department, there holding their own little picnic and he just didn't care. He thought you get away with it and he did amazing now you talk about also at the same time, the incredible effort by detectives to solve this, and so they have November 13th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy five in Aspen Co. You say: Repre send some various police agencies from Colorado, Washington, California and Utah. Discussing similar cases, similar transaction and so you say at the same time during that, still under twenty four hour surveillance, TED Bundy joins the Mormon Church.

Well, yeah, I mean by the time he got back to you to all, and you know it with his is well actually your time, the the the the Utah police were surveilling him even before he he went to up to Seattle, okay, and course, one he came back from Seattle. He was tried and convicted of it in in the garage k. So blindly could you could see once he was arrested for the character put for the Carol Darrage thing that things are going to go badly, so he had met those Utah people, crowded, Kelly, immerse him in their life before he went to Seattle but yeah, but they were following him there too, and the surveillance in Utah really really frustrated Monday.

And he was he- he didn't know how to respond, and he would do things like you would take their picture. He would write down their license. And he did some of that in Seattle and it just it had no meaning, He came up to one guy in Seattle, one cop, and he said Are you? Are you police or a citizen? what I just don't want to. Please follow me, but but I don't want citizens following me and the cops it you have any questions just act. Will it be the Seattle Police Department and you know so yeah? It was interesting. So in fact we have a bunny murders is like an He was like a killer under glass, it was very, very frustrating with damn it. It was almost like they were doing their job but it was a mind game to from Bundy because he didn't know how to handle it and so yeah yeah. It's it's it's it's very interesting. What life

changed for him when he was bought out of the you gotta? Remember he he totally had gotten away with it in Washington State an you know. He came to kill in Utah and when that became a hotbed of investigation, Like Washington, he started killing in Colorado, then it got hot over there in bed, killed in Idaho? and then, finally, when he was brought to light, everybody knew at once. Monday is there man and they had to scram conference. Ok- and I say in my first book I said you know these guys were telling all these facts. I say something like it's: cold is an autopsy table and these men had had learned about Bundy. They had learned about the case and they just do it like You know the back of their hand, they were still discovering stuff so, and so they had this. I think they called the Inter Mountain Prime Conference

And they knew their best hope was. Is that he would be put away for a long time for the killing of of character. And a Utah originally was trying to Jim, with not only the abduction of Karola Raj but the attempted murder. They had to drop the attempted murder. Think if there was no proof of that, although they all knew it even Eve, even in the legal people said you have to drop it. They all knew money was going to kill her. So. He got one to fifteen years in Utah State prison, but they also called point in the mountain prison, and you know then, from there brought to Colorado, and you know two escapes, then all the Florida, but his life became his life changed dramatically after his first arrest in August of seventy five,

where they found his murder kit and they thought he was a burglar, but they knew they. They just knew. He was something more so that was very pivotal from that time. Forward that arrest forward Bundy was never out the spotlight for for very long, and so that's why he could never kill again, at least not until we got the floor, so they they they they they did other your job, okay with him and they they could always tell them, and you know he he would be with what happened, but I don't believe because any murders, while he was being surveilled and you call or a or or or or you know, a it anywhere else, so women were safe at that time and and then they would be three more that would drive for you in

Clued, the compendium of Lynette Culver, which is twelve years old, and that homicide investigation yeah main at six one thousand nine hundred and seventy five. She was reported missing. So tell us what you found in that. What's included in that, that would be known as known previously well just to give the audience an idea that was one murder where I really. Kind of blew the lid off some stuff, and I found some stuff out that hadn't been really published before this whole story of that murder and his time in poker, Tellow, and I remember people they're familiar with the Bundy case. I call bill hagmaier one day and we were talking I said bill. I've got this girl, her name is Lynette, Culver and I only know a couple things about her bill and at this time I had gotten the case file yet and I had Talk to the Idaho investigators, but MIKE

be sure the coloradoan figure had told me that Bundy had dry, on her in the bathtub. So I said bill? The only thing I know about this, this kid she's twelve and her name And how Bundy killed her, he drowned in the back up, well build, The bar had never heard that and he was skeptical. You know at the he was here this for me and he said well, you know I have all the respect in the world for the investigator. Ian MIKE Fisher liked, like each other I've never heard things like that, and I sat down on every confession. That was ever made and after he also here's hagmaier the expert telling me this, who I'm at the time in Nob, it's just trying to gather information and research and write the book, and I said oh, I said well, you know that's what I was told, but my mind was thinking. Well, maybe this is wrong, but they also do look if you

find out something different. Let me know so from there. I went back to my. Can I say yeah. I got that from Russ. You never know the Idaho investigator, so you need to call rod. So I did and rusted all, that's absolutely true and I'll tell you how this happened you know we had an hour where I said, and I've got that route, not the trial. I've got the transcript of that. Well confession they had one hour exactly to talk to Monday about two murders, the murder of a hitchhiker that he killed on his way to you when he moved there and the killing of twelve year old, Lynette Culver. Well, in that back end for it there's a lot the only over there there's a lot of information going back and forth and they were switching back from one murder to the next and they asked they asked how he killed her. Well, she she she drowned

and then he said he had placed her in the in the in a river, more the poker, Tellow and so in their minds are thinking what she drowned in the river but actually left the prison. Restaurant oh said his co investigator Randy Everett, nobody! Never! You never really clarify that and said out how he drowned her. Could you go back in the prison and see an to Monday's credit he had to hold the investigators at the end of that hour. Why is that running with their while building was very to look at. I know what hour is an hour is a very long. It's not enough time. If you have any other additional questions, you can't, let me I'll do everything I can to answer and you could tell he's being really genuine so, but he goes by, I mean uh. Every goes back in the prison. Randy Diancie Bundy, they say: okay, they take Randy Everett

after winning play three minutes and one thousand five hundred and twenty minutes late here comes Monday. They sit down, talk, there's no hagmaier there there's no, Diana Wiener, the attorney there there's nobody and ever goes listen, You mentioned that you draw out that she drowned. But you never said how he ditto, I drown in the bathtub and and then he admitted afterwards having sex with her after that because he loves, you know necrophilia, but I talk. Already better on the phone, an I said, and it turns out that. Randy never ask whether she was taking a bath like a bullish and or perhaps maybe she was strangled unconscious and then put in there and round We don't know all the mechanics of that, but he said butt buddies at all

yeah? I drown in the bathtub, so he was really forthright about how he did it so keep in mind. Bill hagmaier doesn't know this, so I emailed bill that I had found out that good and yes- and I got this directly from Randy Everett and here's. Why why you didn't know it, and so I published that a portion of that email in my second book, the trail of of TED Bundy. So I really broke the story on there, but it wasn't just the the murder of Lynette Culver, but I also was able, to determine the type of hunting. Bundy did well when in poker Tellow he was for a couple of days, Ann why he wasn't. One the reasons. Why maybe be main reason why he was not able to get any college women to go with him, and I found

That from the weather, here all the police report of the weather at that time that it was cold that, as I say in the book, was refusing to we relinquishing its grip. There were snow showers and it was cold. The city on both days he was there, so you can just imagine only trying to get women to stop and talks and they're just not going to do it, and so the next day he gay. Little. You know where that Culver from from the junior high or middle school Alameda? And it's a straight shot. You take a right out of the hotel, which is today at the Clary on, There was a holiday in you to go on fuller, creek Road and hit. It runs that Alameda and turns

E Alameda then turns into web Alameda, and then you hit the school. So he just stumbled on this school when they were coming out for lunch and got this girl. Ok, so I got the full story from Austria. No, I got. I got the transcript. I got the police reports and so it was published in the bonding worse then, when I was doing This I was aware I didn't comment on this in the Bundy Birds. I didn't. I didn't feel any reason to comment on it, but there was this ridiculous urban legend that she was actually not. Picked up at the school she may have gotten on the bus she may have walked to another high school. Several blocks away and people were believing all this. So I called up you know Russ Russ Renault, not this, and he said: oh there's no truth to that, but he got there right at the school, and so

I go on and I tell that story, and that was that was when I had completely Troy that myth that people had built and then I I touch on the fact of how often these things happen. And if you look at the Bundy case, if you look at all the women Bundy Kill, there were so many reports of most of these women being seen in other locations. People swear, they saw them hitchhiking on a ferry somewhere else and all of them. I won't call them live I'll, call them mistakes and it's a total waste of police manpower. They have to check them all out, and all of these problems

you know and say they were: let go over what she boarded a bus. I already tried she was walking to another school. None of it was true, so that was another minute that I got a busted there and then, of course, you know the data entry thing sort but then again this cover case is one of the cases that I really presented in print it if totality for the first time now you talk about the various witnesses to the CHI omega attacks and will also talk about the particularly you can't write this stuff and tion of the Debbie's sister rally and saving her friend, our hair, be yes, and that is in in in Riverton Lease saving her friend. But let's talk about what you found and what you've included about the particularly horrifying Florida attack

Yeah, you know Bundy by the time he got the Florida uh. You know he when he escaped from sex problem Colorado I mean if he had been just They had done their job in Colorado. He would have gotten order. Nobody else would have been murdered, but he escaped with this Chicago went to Ann Arbor stole a car go down to Louisville down, stop head breakfast here in Louisville Atlanta, the car in Atlanta to the Trailways bus to Tallahassee, and for now the days when he was there he's getting settled in there? He stealing he's doing everything he ever he's a master thief right. Credit cards will never turn your back. For one moment he's going to steal, something but then I need to kill start coming up yeah, and when he killed in Florida it was different. Very different, Deemo completely changed when

he started killing in Florida he was no longer the swab predator, the one grew drew women to him. He was actually repelling women. He had these Bob's coming out of these people said his eyes were strange. He couldn't get people to dance with him at at the disco charade Becaus, because of how weird he was. Sometimes he was physically dirty, He was just. He was disintegrating as a killer, but when it came to the murders, at CHI Omega. I say in the book in my first book that he couldn't get the conscious women at the disco tech right across the street. Follow them to their dad. So he went and attack back the unconscious woman at CHI Omega and that's where he kill

LISA Le Veon Margaret moment. But what was different about these murders is. It was a frenzy he had taken these logs and beating them. Broken joy. Invoke the jaws of two other women who led seriously injured them and it was an absolute frenzy nothing like these other murders, no planning and wanting to take away. Take it and in an animalistic frenzy. He even that bit the the butt of one of the girls one of the dead girls. I think it would believe you girl and then you know they would use that against him as it ever just on animalistic thing had he. He didn't think that, but we had these bad teeth. They were very easy to duplicate. You know you can look at it Steve, it's not like. They were perfect. You got there I'll, be back for big beef. His teeth were really screwed up in ways that were very, I mean they had a pattern to him, but

very, very odd, very animalistic, a frenzy now what's interesting is you would think after he left Kyle Mega that night, which was, as I recall, close to three hundred, am he go home? No, he wasn't satiate at all. We walked a few more blocks to Dunwoody. This is gone now, but I've been on the phone with the and there was a duplex and I think no doubt he is probably spot on this woman before but Cheryl Thomas was was that was for place and next next to her to say, look like one AL, but next to Debbie Cicarelli an what money did was we got through a window and came through and he attacked her. What. Somebody stopping around in there her crying

like moaning, so she starts calling out to her pounding on the wall. Uh. You know making a racket calling her phone well Bundy. He had every intention, Of strangling her from behind, while he had intercourse weather, which was uh the normal MO program, and murdering her while he's having sex with her. So he couldn't do that. This Debbie Ceccarelli was making too much noise. So. He masterbated and left semen on the bed after he had beaten her to a pulp on. I forgot this He carried the same log from CHI Omega the dunwoodie apartment, an asian fella named Sigune, happened to see him walking, trying to conceal something. He is really drawing attention to himself and so

slow down and looked at him. He was dressed so I'm trying to conceal something that was the log and he used that log and beat her. But then he couldn't kill her and he goes back out the window from which he came from. You know that that that he got in but Debbie absolutely for life, because without all that going on- and you know she called the police to and the police were brought rated bust down the door and she say wait. I've got a key to your apartment, and so she let damn in in. In my first book, I've got all the test only from the cops showed up there and everything and she. Severely injured, but she lived, but she you know all of these women's. I mean some of these women hand, injuries that they never did get over hearing, LOS balance problems and various things like that, but they lived. But

from there. Then I guess satiated that, after after after two different attacks he goes on back to Is you know, rooming house again, as the college district mean, kids are up, there's a lot of people up in his house and he he so changed that a couple people, Henry Palumbo in another person say something to him as he passing them to go into their house, but he doesn't even respond. Which is very on Bundy, like good body, could pull all the charm but by the the very very changed color and a changed man, and then you got the same. Kind of books are stuff that happens with his last murder in lake City. With the you know, you know the murder of Kimberly Leach, so the different got a killer. He was having his own kind of internal. You know meltdown. He was just not the same killer.

That that he was back in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four seventy five in the NW and even in Utah and Colorado. What was different most different about the last murder of Kimberly Leach. Is, and there is a little bit of do talk about the controversy or the disagreement you have on with other people about where she was actually murder, Yeah, that's a good thing to bring up. I had a couple of people had several people contact me and when, when I was writing you know the one the murders I look, I look. I had all the case files, they weren't sure exactly where she was murdered maybe if they know where she was found, they don't know whether she was

actually murdered under that hog. Little hog shed uh, or maybe the I mean they weren't sure yeah I mean there was some blood in the van. I don't think there was enough. It looks on the record that you could say she was murdered there, but I remember I came determine the determination of writing the book that it's kind of like I'm, not sure, but I'm going to lean this way. She was killed in the object when they other body she was. You could tell that she was placed a certain way that the medical examiner thought that Bundy was inside the hogs head with her having sex and that's where he ultimately cutting through it. With that now now he may have had sex with her on the band two and began to color there as well. I don't know, but there is some blood there so that that wouldn't surprise Maine. So these people are contacting Maine and I'm thinking well, you know, maybe they found something that I don't know. I

that's the way it is. I mean I don't care how it is. I'd rather know the truth, and if it changes and it's not there, I'd like to know it, but then Well, I mean you know 'cause, he don't know they could have found something that my had determined it, but I thought until I see something I'm not going to just change my opinion of what I wrote the first time so when I was doing the getting all these case files out again and doing all this, I ran into stuff from both the meh go, examine it, examine IRAN. Bob Beckel who prosecuted Bundy they're, giving testimony that's about two months after the van was located. So you know they've already gone through the can you know, sit up and down one way than the other and they know everything they needed to forensically about the band, but the medical examiner was leaning Tord

that she was killed right there like under the hog shed an index closes at. That point, is that we don't know. I mean we've got some theories on it, but we don't know so I thought will see that part of the no, I can't do that conclusion. So I say in the new book: the money syrup in won't bother me at all. If they discover something tomorrow that states she was categorically killed in the van. But whoever saying that now now I don't know I mean I just I'm looking at the evidence I had I had, and so I'm just not convinced it would take something more than what I've heard to convince me. Change my opinion. So I did bring that out and also brought out if you'll notice there was a new. Going to say who it is. He knows who who he is, but did you like the bar? When I talked about this occasionally people will talk about Maine.

Making stuff up for the book and adding stuff to it and I'd, say: they're, always wrong uh. They just usually don't know the case as well as I do because of all the research I've done. I had one person who was contact I was working on the Bundy Project and uh, was a thing where you know. I say in one passage when Bundy contacted list. Within about forty five minutes of a docking, did we can't so she's not dead yet, but he's by a doctor in in the car? I said he did that to step back from the croat insanity, okay, and because of something that she had said in the case file about that, and

so this person took issue with that and this personal problem is only about the alibis and won't alibi could be part of it. But it's certainly not going to be the main thing. It's going to be this, But I couldn't remember where, in the case file where I got that from so I answered it with something else, but would also prove my point, but not quite as well as wherever the case both. So when I'm doing this book, I've run into it and if I find it, ok I find it, and so that's basically what Liz said to Bundy. Is this reason why you do it like this? You know and yeah he all but but agreed with her, but this person had said that I make. I say his word not not be said that I make shit up as I go along. Well, never do that. I've never done that and at those times when I do speculate

I make sure I know what I'm talking about just like when I was writing about Lorraine, Fargo beating Kathy. Parks on the campus of Oregon State University late at night, only thirty minutes before Kathy disappear and I stay in the bond emerge without ever having talked to Lorraine fast said you know Bundy who want You know what we're calling library and it says in the record that Maria come from the library. Maybe

he was originally following her. We don't know- and I said also there's a letter that that that that that can't be parks mail to her boyfriend, which has eight polls mark date of May seventh, and this is may sixth on the night that you that you disappear. I said it I don't know, but it may be that that was mailed at the ST got close to think that maybe, like you know, White Van meet that night How? However, I put it in in the bonding works, but those are speculations based on what I know about Bundy and things like that and how things work, and maybe she the other thing so I thought well at the speculation, turns out Lorraine, Fargo, contacted me within few months after I booked the bunny worse with published and but I had many dogs and she said yeah well, somebody was following me in the library.

And I dissolved in in the trailer TED Bundy and she said he kept. He kept bothering me sit beside me. And when I went to library trailed me out, ok and she's, trying to avoid him that was probably Bundy and when we talked about the letter because they stood like fifty feet across a street from the Memorial Union Commons were Kathy went in. They were right there on the other side of little side Street and we talk about the letter. She said: oh yeah, she had that letter in for an, and so when we said goodbye, I watched her Walker Cross. The street put it in the mailbox. And go into the Memorial Union Commons. So why speculate on something I'm going to do it for a reason of probable thing, and I, when people have said that uh,

Very I remember a mention in the practice of of of of the Bundy murders occurred when I'd be specular, so it'll be based on things that Bundy has said in the third person of what things how he might have felt now this was a belt or what this person did so that's the thing about when you're writing nonfiction, you really really really really gotta know yourself, you gotta know your case file and this person that you know with the rake me over the coals. I put told this individual, you don't there's a lot about this case. You don't know and that's a fact so, but in any event but yeah it's interesting. So I do put a couple of those things in there that kind of clear the record. I also put in there a couple of places where I

made like minor mistakes like the girl that that that the girl, the kids that that he killed that he picked up the idol hitchhiker. For some reason I had said that, but the it said you probably came from like while but it's really Montana I I know how to get that messed up, but you know it was just like a little couple will be. You know, corrections make it at that. That's good to do you see something I need that you messed up. If you have a chance to correct to do so, but I do go into a couple of things that have been brought to me that I knew I was right about, and so I did comment on those in the Bundy surface

Dependable stand as a record, and it's all through now, one of the most fascinating parts and we've only got a few minutes left I wished wanted to. This is some profound stuff in Bob Detective Kapil, an Liz Kloepfer again Bundy calls are from prison. And so he talks about she's there. Having a conversation he says, are you tell sing me. You are sick. He said.

And so he said, why do you want to talk about how I hurt you list so now in this you have some incredible stuff that he talks about his desires. His need to kill, tell us about that four weeks. Let you go tonight, yeah, it's a very interesting thing. He basic I mean you gotta, remember. The chat is so garnered that he doesn't want to talk much about anything. Like that, but he talks about this sickness Ann. She said something along the lines. Are you talking about? You know like what happened. Chi Omega, and he said I don't wanna talk about it, but he talked about how this got ahold of him and how he tried to stop and tried to break it, and he just couldn't

so he, even though he's being guarded even with Liz at that moment, he's basically confessing he's basically confessing that, yes, all this is true and- and you know it's just he's just saying Yeah, that's true, but he doesn't want to come out and say it. It kind of reminds me of when Bob Capital he's confessing the Bob Keppel about the Georgann Hawkins Murder and he is talking about it, but then he becomes uncomfortable when couple asked him What did you do? You stayed with her all night. So what did you Do with her safe from the it was a one hundred am to five hundred am when you left. He said: well, you I'll have to get back with you on that or something like that.

Of course. What he was doing during that time was, was necrophilia and severing her head and what whatever diabolical things he was doing. But when it came to the mechanics of the abduction very forthright and boy he did miss a beat, but when it came to the diabolical things sometimes, if he did he would want to

stay away from those and he wouldn't lie. He would just say. Well, maybe I can talk about that later. I can't do it now and so yeah very. I opens a conversation with with with winds, worried, basically contesting the or and called himself sick, a sickness, and it's about the clothes he did come to admitting that there are what we've also what you've also included in again. We just don't have time to go through it all, but for those people are going to go out and buy this book, you talk about the The actual two hours before he's executed there's an interview with authority, so we won't go into that, but that's just part of what is included in this incredible book, the Bundy secrets, just none on the eve of his execution. He

there's more to say I want to thank you Kevin for coming on and talking about the Bundy secrets for those people that might want to do. You have a facebook page for this website. Tell us a little bit more about wild bill press on where people might find out more information about this and the other two books in the trilogy. Well, I have a regular facebook, page, Kevin M Sullivan. I have an author page, Kevin M Sullivan so could track me down there, but you can always get hold of me At wild blue dress. And I want her the office at Wildwood Crest and I I right who crowned blogs. They also have links to all of my books, not just the ones that they published, but the ones that other publishers in pub and they have links from there to Amazon and, like I say I had people that cause, Matt and and I can get back with them that way, so you have Do is, is to Facebook. Well, I want

Thank you very much Kevin for coming on and talking about. The bank statement or files of America's worst serial killer. Thank you very much Kevin. It's always a pleasure. I hope to talk to you again soon. Thanks Dan will see you next time. Bye, bye, ok, goodnight,. Don't like that, and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah lisbie the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah, but the far. Appealing, blobfish come on. To add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. Loyalty, is all about being there day in day out

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