Steeped, in luxury, driven by innovation, it's how we do business had Genesis of Willow Grove. It's our mantra, the phrase we can help the RP. It's our promise that Genesis of Willow Grove will serve every customer as exquisitely S. Genesis does steeped in luxury, driven by innovation, its genesis of Willow, Grove on EAST in road and willow, Grove and online, at Genesis of Willow, Grove, dotcom hurry and for an offer as exceptional as our vehicles. Hi folks, Dierks Bentley, here being on the go, is a big part of my life. I love seeing new places, meeting new people and performing all over the world for enerji on the go for Maine. It's five hour, energy. It works fast, works long and it tastes. Good was zero sugar in four calories. Try it it could work for on the go life too,

Five hour, Energi Energi on the go, get five hour: energy at your local Wawa. How to radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dtk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening this is your host damsel asking for the program, true murder, the most shocking. Listen to true crime, history,

others are written about them in prison, inmate Robert Weldons and died and left him an eight point: nine million trust steeped in luxury, driven by innovation. It's how we do business at Genesis of Willow Grove. It's our mantra, the phrase we can't help, but repeat it's our promise that Genesis of Willow Grove will serve every customer as exquisitely's genesis does steeped in luxury, driven by innovation. Its genesis of Willow Grove on Easton RD in Willow, Grove and online at genesisofwillowgrove dot com hurry in for an offer as exceptional as our vehicles Arthur and Barbara Reeve parents of murder victim Susan Reeves acted to deprive relevant of the funds that could gain him. Freedom on parole, the Reeves ultimately got and unheard of ten million dollar judgment against their daughters, killer, affectively stripping the man known as America's richest. In soon after Susan's murder, the wheat set up a scholarship funding

name. The killers money is currently used in that fund, which helps it helps to educate young men and women. The charmer embraces the hunt to bring Susan's killer justice and then the chase of a lifetime of one family determined to give this lane daughter a voice decades after she was silent. The book this evening that we're going to be profiling is charmer the true story of Lava Robin rate, this murder, a millionaire and the women who fell victim to his allure by Richard Muti and Charles Buckley. An with me this evening I have Charles Buckley on the line and thank you, Charles Buckley, for agreed lucidity, this interview and welcome to true murder. I could damage pleasure to be here in thanks for the invitation, thank you very much and then the audience says is going to be very interesting. This story we see we've, we had the audience is probably very familiar with people there-

murder in the family, but this is much more cut, some twists in there to the usual clot. So this, I think the audience is really going to enjoy this one. Now, let's start off with given a time frame for this, because this is not a crime occurred currently, no recently, so give us the time frame and give us sea community that Robert Weldon ah grew up in give us said what parents were like her, and you tell us a little bit about the life of Robert Relevant, so we can really understand the character of this very fascinating killer, so take us back to sort of where these crimes are starting in the mid 70s. But go back to Robert Relevant and where he grew up and how we grew up and what his parents were like. Take us back to their please well relevant grew up with. Would a pretty young, steady family

situation, I mean the father and mother owned a restaurant in New York City. The ant was very wealthy. There was it. There was a sister Susan who was part of the family and it a well put together family. There should be no reason why Robert Relevant, which deviate from developing into a fine young man, but the for he was even eighty years old. He had got involved in a series of juvenile incidents involving assaults on women goods in cars. Things of that nature. He went through the juvenile system in the state, in New Jersey and several times he was given. Psychiatric treatment set. The state hospitals onto agency is directed by the juvenile courts. Do they could be on probation Viet under grow undergoes psychiatric treatment

on each? He just went once and it didn't bother to come again. The aunt Lillian Eric very well. She married the firs booth, who was the summit one of the founders of IBM himself, a multi millionaire. He died after a process. Ten years of the relationship leaving her fifty million dollars, she became one of the focal points in the family and that she was. She was generous with their money to the family. She was extremely generous to society in terms of giving millions of dollars to hospitals, to actors, homes and things of that nature, and that may have been one of the problems which sent Rob

relevant off on that tangent. It ultimately resulted in two murders. He seemed to feel that he was being short changed that to one thousand dollars gift at Christmas. Time was not enough for him, the The brand new Volkswagen she gave when he came out of prison was not enough for because she was buying a Cadillac two cadillacs. We are for herself and her her live in friend, so this disturb relevant seemed to be on this basis. I developed this hatred ended. This was really bored.

Fourth and all the psychiatric report. There was a hatred towards women, it just what he focused on them and every one always psychiatry seem to believe it came from this air built good idea of the really what the relationship should be between Lou Lillian himself, so were he just the parents continues. What give all is his criminal career. In fact, you recall the case where he planned, while in state prison, to have his aunt Lillian murdered in order to gain his inheritance. Early and bullets know where we're going- let's, let's not get ahead of ourselves here for the audience, because I think they were

giving away. I asked talking about you. How we just got a little bit fastened with his story, really really lends itself to really explaining this now. What would you have described is that, despite his upbringing, without potatoes wasn't just as at that had money his family had money in, like you say, you were alluding to an intimate ing about his family, supporting him through, even though his juvenile delinquency, it was much more than that. Wasn't it because you say that it really was money in the sense of like Aunt Lillian had it, they were comfortable. Their businesses are coming everything, but there were no shortages in in the household they they lived in close, which was a very nice community. What's called the northern Valley area of Bergen County Middle Class home no problems if anyone could was aware of, but rather just started on this course of juvenile activities

breaking into home, stealing car stealing tires, which I said I said, ended up continued problems with the juvenile court system. New Jersey he ultimately was, was convicted. In. Do you what happened in New York? He was arrested for a theft of an automobile. Now they didn't want to waste the time in New York on this peanut charge, but he add this ongoing juvenile probation in New York state. So what they did was they sensed him under that violation, probation to three years in the present in New York State, he served his time got out of great meadows which, where he served his time and within a month he sexually assaulted, a woman Import Lee and that one,

the beginning really of is, is adult criminal activities that would amount to a Florida committed to crimes. To me minor crimes down there, and then back to nor borrowing at the back majority was around it did not work in the nineteen sixty three now just back these are small Bunbury you Hernandez was a month after his parole. The to crime in Florida worry were in December of sixty two sixty e2 in January, sixty three in December, one thousand nine hundred and sixty three he's arrested for about ten various crimes in New York state. And in New Jersey, so I mean he really had begun to accumulate criminal episodes, his life all the time living at home when he wasn't in jail and being supported by his family, but it

It's just a matter of of tat fell because, like you say that rape there is this additive we'll talk about it later when he talks about two people that later informed the police about his attitude about women. Thirty ethic joke that he is, he says about up what one tat followed say to another: it really is an indication of the cycle pathic mind. I know it may be a cliche, but this guy at a very early age, maybe fifteen or so really shows all those tendencies towards very home invasions, sexual assault theft. For no reason really does. I need the money's got much. It's not really he's not poor. Anything is no. There seems to be so. It really seems to be a portrait of a psychopathic killer that keeps accelerating and his ego is incredible and of course, he's narcissistic in it and it gets in his way. Ultimately, it's very interesting story, so so by the time, tell us what

age and by what age is he now in contact with his Anna Marie Hernandez and get it tell us about that crime because that's really the beginning of how some of the most serious up he's doing, that is perceived serious criminal activity. He was born in one thousand nine hundred and forty is he was he committed, though he released from the search out here the juvenile sentence for violation of his probation? He was really e on January 16th of sixty two now he's twenty two years old, but he's he was. This was as a juvenile this this probation was granted within a month. He he in another individual enter this home or Maria Maria Hernandez was staying with her sister and tied her up and started sexually assaulted, her fortune, four for Maria, the

the other come up in security, other guy involved in the issue in the break in it all relevant, knock it off and let's get out. What we have to do is trying to steal a money and he did stop it. I'm after YO mishandling her in watching her in an attempt to begin in a sexual assault so that he's. Only at that time is sixty. Two is twenty: two years old these a month out of prison he then runs he leaves the state. Then I think he's he's looking for to get away from the possibility. Just make him back to haul them. Although I hadn't been identified yet, as I said, he went up, Marty went the Missouri for while leaving Connecticut, but then he came back to New York Jersey and in the summer of sixty threes. Now, twenty three years old, he's arrested by the closer police carrying a gun in the car he's arrested by the N Arlington Police in New Jersey for breaking and entering and striking

woman with a tire iron, the resume, the house he's arrested by the Fort Lee Police, the more rigour Hernandez assault. This is almost a year later when they finally get around to identifying them. So in the mean time, while all this is going on in New Jersey he's making daily trips over the George Washington Bridge committing a series, the source on elderly women in northwest area of Manhattan Island where he follows them into an elevator- and this goes to is a war- is charm, he's very polite, tee with your floor press the elevator button for he he only had seen it there's one one woman on the elevator. They are just put at ease by his manner. He asked charming way about him. Every woman who was involved in these as victims talks about the initial response. One is one up, trust and confidence and what he does

then his signature is to grab them by the throat choke them steal their pocketbook jewelry, whatever get out of the elevator press a button and send them up while he runs and then goes in hiding and the New York police finally track him over to New Jersey and early one thousand nine hundred and sixty four that's for these nine sixty three crimes and the enemy call Paul. This is he works out, plea bargains all over the place and the deal is he'll plead anything as long as it doesn't involve violence or assaults on women. He pleads the guns in the car. He please the break and entries and for ten crimes for ten separate crimes he receives what is an effect one five year sentence, and he does that in New York and New Jersey just hear their senses in do they wouldn't in New York state. After all, this he's paroled in September of nineteen sixty six. Have you done

two and a half years for all these and crimes? Cyanide is really moving up the ladder very quickly. Sixth, not aiming at the police. How does he get the plea agreements who is paying for the borders during this time? Www Lillian has the money, as far as we know, does higher the best attorneys and the ease, or every time is involved in the crime. He as a quality, attorney working form and the job in me, in New Jersey, a Frank Lucy Anna, who is a very, very good Bergen. County attorney, works out this deal, which is New Jersey, strokes, the whole thing away. It says the five years New York is enough get outta here. We don't want to be bothered with you, so I mean that's how I was able to move along paroled after doing only two one slash two years for ten crimes, seven of which involved assaults on women, sexual assaults.

Uh some nonsexual, just violent robberies, things of that nature so with a sword. You know so now he had really moved along and he's coming the jail after two one slash two years in September of nineteen sixty six and in the mean time he meets, he goes to Florida. Now here's one of the problems he and his father do not have a date very good relationship, his mom hurry. He doesn't think much mother. Could she so easy to get over on? He just she'll do whatever he wants, but he doesn't get along well with his father and he's on parole, but he said dance permission to go to Florida with Father. The father is thinking of starting another restaurant down there and he meets Judith Rosenberg and when it within the day she says, she's already fallen in love with him and that's the that's. The kind of

Turkey has on women. He D is just that personable that engaging that women for formation. She said she fell in love with him. The first day, she's married. She has an abusive husband he's involving the mob in Illinois. He can't go whether, because her ease under a in Illinois, they hear Robin and drew the throws. A bird become quite friendly in a very short time. She goes back and her husband is found murdered than in the trunk of a tree, for she immediately called railways and asked him the canal and stay with her relevant is on parole. He can't leave the state without permission. He just goes immediately and listened with Anti Judah, so they have in a day or so just form this Braun relationship with now. This is

in January of sixty. Seventy is premature and get started. Work now April of sixty seven two months later is one comment rape of police cabin and to apply the New Jersey and again use in a choke old. He gainsay gains entry in her house by posing is someone making a delivery, cleaning material cleaning pants things of that nature, as she is at first Leary, but being competence built into it by his charm in a general manner. She let some commend to the house that he raped her. I mean it's just that easy for him. He threatens to kill her if she she doesn't give and his demands he threatened to kill her son. If he shows up she claims he's coming in, you better run things of that nature. He says I'll kill him. If he goes, I have a gun, so he get The way were media that crime,

it's a merely arrested in two days. They because the identification so easily had been on parole. These easy to force the commission to a police Asian were she seized him and identifies him, but now one of the key things starts. He has a trial. They got all this evidence against them, the specific identification by Miss Missis. When in the identification of the car by a year. Residents who lives in that area. Key Stricklin he sees the car in Egypt. Is that that car that was parked outside her house was We know that that was relevance car. Then he identified as the car, which was there. He goes to try and there's a Hungary. I mean it doesn't make any sense, but relevance

as the family behind him there in court every day he's nice. He smiles at the jury, acting very polite very condescending and someone on the jury. We don't know who or how many they refuse to convict them. So now he's he said, he's developing this, this skill in front of series that I'm a nice guy. I wouldn't do anything like this look at my family with me and he there's a hung jury now. You know yourself hung juries are raring criminal case, so that mean that happens, but the journal run the military field theories not killed, but here we have Hungary each right again and at this time is convicted. Fortunately, and he receives a a sense to the prison, were they met a mandatory inaction, the thirty years in jail for the rape to be two hundred? It is time that a treatment centres, one not Thea

the real basic prisons, routine. It would be in place and he comes in cut in touch with a year, a man whose loose he psychologist at the prison Pendergast do almost we want. The yummy is under the spell of Robin himself in this case, sports writing parole letters for relevant within within three years, based on based on Prendergast, strong, urging to the parole board that this is not. This is not a sexual pervert. This crime we had to do with this hatred of his is his aunt, his mother, the red now train cured of that problem, another jail. He gets out of jail within five months. He assaults another woman, so a Blanche mark in but touching by, attacking our inner cars drawing her

Barber and possibly rape her too. So now we're talking, you know, he's he's it's up to seventy one. He sees now went to his third sexual assault, large. They send back to jail again and he still stays in Giovanni this initial thirty year, rape charge, and now he gets this five to seven years on the assault on Blanche marked in Middlesex County, but he spiling paroled in May of nineteen. Seventy five that takes us up to everything up to before the murders. Now before we go any further, you have an excellent photo. You've chosen to just have basically the title of the book and the and then the mug shot basically of Richard are part of me of so that was the rape arrest, yeah, ok over me. Ok! So now tell us what he looks like 'cause. This is what the audience

doesn't know. What does he look like? What is his hairstyle? Well, how can he get it over with all these people? Doing? The psychologist obviously, is an intelligent guy and tell us that you haven't. I was going to ask that question he's intelligent driver, given these are pretty boy guy battalion. You guys right. What is yeah tell us about that, but tell us what he looks like describe as weight is height is built his hair. How could this guy charm, all these women and almost everybody, becomes across? Well he's he's six foot, six one clean shaven for most of life. I don't remember ever seeing any picture anything, whereas any hair, facial hair, you have nice brown brown, hair that he know neatly. Combed. Answer me here: I don't know how to explain what is looking just a handsome guy with a a treatment

just personality which just radiates from him. He knows how to turn on the charm one of the reasons that the parents just couldn't believe he had raped this. Mrs Kaplan was because he had so many girlfriends that time he raped a right. Mrs Kaplan, he had two girlfriends in New Jersey, but they didn't know about each other, and you also had you know Rosenberg from Illinois who he ultimately married, but women just were all over him, the matter whatever it is, and Charlie. I never really spoken to the man, but though the women who have dealt with insane his initial is initial contact within just causes them to drop their guard. So it's it's hard to explain what he looks like he said, he's a good looking guy and he's he's very muscular well built. Well, mannered got a lot going for him and he could he I mean he brags about his ability with women. Me

just that's one of his strong point is he's telling telling people in jail the Williams brothers. He never had a child with women so that that's his makeup, yeah, ok! So now we got got that got us all caught up in this criminality up to the murder itself. Now at the key person in this too, is this Judith Rosenberg very interesting, like you guess, she's, apparently with some gangster than just after she needs? Well, then he's killed what a happy coincidence. Then they get together because he really can rely on this woman and as it is understandable once given who she was already already looked hooked up with you know, so you know, maybe that's why he seemed to be charming, of course, maybe wasn't abusive, but he must have seemed like a preppy dream compared to maybe the

MR that she was or gangster the child with heat where their lingered in away India think larders, where they were he's therewith this family, his mother and father and sister. It's you know. It's a nice family he's a nice guy, he's there with her son, I mean all the all the factors are coming together. She is in a bad relationship, ears guy, who has a nice family friendly, charming good, looking show, showing attention to her the chief wasn right away. In fact she waits for well. Are you well? The year does his time on on the on the Kaplan rape, I mean she's, she comes here. She, she Jason Illinois until it's a he's about ready to get released because of all the Mister Prendergast effort, and she then comes right to work, the father and mother in close during burden county. So and then, then, when he does get

rolled, they immediately get married and the day you put up get together, place up in just over the border into New York state, which is interesting because it's one of the heavy factors in terms of playing Anthony's murders that, where he lived within cross, close proximity to wear these bodies are ultimately found. So it became an important piece of evidence. Right now tell us about the just prior to the murders itself tell us a year again what what year were talking about and he'd be just been through a lot to learn

long before hand, so tell us about what is going on just previous to that, and then tell us, of course, about the first and the second he gets paroled. Finally, on May 30th of nineteen. Seventy five he's got like a twenty two year. Parole requirement is not supposed to be of parole until one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven, as I said, Judith, is moved into a new jersey. In the mean time, she's gotten a a an apartment up in Valley Cottage NY were there they're going to live. Of course, relevance not supposed to go out of state to to re Ciety supposed to live in New Jersey, but he now he's taken a chance of living up in New York state with her, which would be a vial no parole. If he's caught would then he would be sent back to you there's a lot of pressure on him, but they get married in almost immediately in June of nineteen seven

the five and he said I mean he takes as far as we know. He takes his marriage very seriously, the does having another fling with another girl refer to gimbal, who he takes to another place, exactly a place where the second body is initially located. I mean she's import with its and say well, that's within one hundred feet of where Bobby and I had to add a picnic one day. This is early in July, probably of one thousand nine hundred and seventy five. So they live a couple months as man and wife, and it seems I mean he's now uh into a business. He's got a contract, ing business, odd jobs, he'll do all kinds of construction things like the and he saw the day the year first, the first woman disappears. He had to go to work over to westward

the Westwood area to get this car engine cleaned. Now I don't know if you want to get into the specific details of the where MRS Haynes was picked off or or you sure you want any more familiar sure sure do that. I have always thought here. Robin s wants his courage and clean soberly westward area, and MRS he's at this same time, is in the Westwood area. Trying to get a job. She's here is, as a nurse she's trying to get get work. She doesn't want to be home alone, or husband has his own job and it. This is a very unique instance, going back to the Kaplan rate. He didn't relevant, didn't know, MRS Cap, but he had never seen her as far as we know, but he's he's got a problem. He's got these two

girlfriends in the Aries got Judith down in Florida now back in Illinois and he's driving home from having been with one of their girlfriends in the morning spotters pressuring him about this business. They want open up in Florida and rolled in his room home would take him right. Planet pass the route it did. This is captain would pass coming home from delivering pass over copies, poor mother over Hackensack, so the route they would pay would bring them into close proximity. There is no reason why relevant was in the area where MRS Kaplan lived. He had no business, there is no art was that he kissed the situation. Worry. He happened to see her now, whatever it was in his mind at that time, which snapped it was just that kind of incident with no wrong

Seymour reason. He saw her and he followed her and he made the decision. He was gonna do what he did for a first for some reason, and no one can explain it. We don't know why. But he follows her to the house and, as I said, he easy prey for equity by a subterfuge, at any rate, for the same thing happened to Missis Hale he's coming back from this boat. Haven't the engine clean up the car she's travel on the same road. It would be worth five miles that they're driving along this road and at times are all in sync with when she was at the office trying to get this job and when he was having the engine clean, and he sees her drive into our driveway and he yeah evidently goes down. The street turns around and comes back and drives up in the driveway. He makes those kinds of Instante

these decisions, whatever it was, or whatever it causes in the pressures of the day, what it what he was under. That seems to be the gist of why it happens, he's under for some reason he snaps, because there's absolutely no contact between him and these his victims at this stage is life before the assault occur, and she takes take sir no gifts control over and she disappears from the house, no sign of as any problem in the house nothing's overturned, he didn't get into the house. He caught her in the driveway. Is she just leaving the house to go to the post office so, and that was the last anyone saw her, so it that's. That's the thing that jumps out at you with it with what happens at these, these all these things, that happened, Blanche, Marty

and when he saw but her and Middlesex County, he never saw her before they do what they what happened there. He was coming out of the hospital from from visiting Mr Prendre gas. He was having trouble at home because his salary had been cut at work. Any was that he was in by is having some money troubles and I felt the lowly was in being generous. She could to an almost study sees MRS Mathieu. I buy you any follows her out of the hospital parking lot down the street about a mile to her home in a big apartment. Complex for was around. Let's drive into her barrage. Races downturn still were softened reaper,

so it's. It always seems that he's under some sort of tremendous pressure- mental pressure at the time he snaps and does these things. So that's that was MRS Haynes and now the next week that happened on October. Sixth, seventy five on October 14th, he sandblasting the house he gotta And lastly, the house, his wife, who worked for a company in the area, got another coworker from her company to help him with a sand blasting. He there were in hard all day long, but they don't accomplishes much if they wanted to, because the sea and blasted mass got broken so it afresh media frustrating day for him, things are going right, he's driving home now and who does he see? Susan? Read it off a boss, a pretty young girl. The bright dress, smiling blonde and he's here

sharp web parties almost by it according to privacy. These who see you Eddie races up this street passing her and we think waiting for her? They reach up a point programme. Speeches about a quarter of a mile to half mile walk to get to her the area where her houses up that street and he waits for her and observers, she said walking up that way and is she's taking in the car and never seen again. Now there are some witnesses, so special witness who happens to see a lot of this, but that's what happened. Always a pressure situation causes relevant. I think the snap and then do these these criminal acts. While it could also be a psychopathic killer just accept reading. I made sure that, obviously everybody every kill probably has a Strasser. I would say that, but you and I have bad days-

we might, I might kick the tires- or you know, throw some, hence the wall and out to clean it up. I just got back at an hour ago, but here s the thing is, it seems to be a classic. Celebration as well. You know within a week two murders I mean Well, I await a serial killer of famine and Anthony. I also he guessed. What has I'm sorry? Ok, sorry What is okay so we're into the second week here he has this murder. These people disappear from the face of the earth. Continue, how does how to see? How does he unwind or how did the further unravel? What does he do? What is his wife do at this time? Where is his wife in all of this, in terms of he's doing this, but what is it a later workforce? Words jumping the gun, but tell us what they say. The police, with no right at that time, with this

appearance with these people were were obviously cop police were call than they were noted as this. As well have disappeared. Tell us about that of the first woman she, which today she was an english bride. Yes, the bride and issue over here husband work that legal motors, british car company and the initial point about her was that she she may have we just gone somewhere. She was homesick, the husbands knew she was homesick. She was. She wanted to go back. He wasn't really happy here. So the first thought was. This is just a way who's gone off somewhere and for several days there was never a feeling that this was a you know across. There was a crime involved here which says more thought in terms of

a woman who's just trying to resolve this unhappiness she's under because of the living conditions. She's she's undergoing here. It's not till about four days, were one that one of police, the police chief in hall worth. I think it was makes the comment that we may be looking at something more than more than just. You know not happy unhappy woman unhappy. Why one? The second when the second girl Susan Red, disappears, I mean it's a clear. There is a serious problem and I lived. I lived in that area, what's called the northern Valley area, and I can tell you this. Second, the disappearance of this second cause tremendous fear throughout up the area they just no one was certain to what had happened, and it just was too to coincidental but think that there's these two women,

and even even the first witness, really wasn't sure that it was relevant at that time relevant who had and been the one who was with Susan Reeves, his identification, your LOS ear, the problem was relevant, had been working insane blasting all day long he's been doing it without a mask for most of the day, and he was covered with soot e at at time to clean up and the initial description of relevant was. He was sort of hispanic dark. You know, and it was really on his confusing because they hit the color that that he had was because of the work he didn't do it. So maybe he was there with tremendous uncertainty as to what the year, what the situation was, but what the police do in cases like this, they start looking through. The recent parole list

you know people who have sexual crimes, crimes of that nature and relatives name come up very quickly and here's here's the into see part of this. How have the case really the solving of the case of if you're interested in this the factors that really led to identifying him as the guy who was the probable killer? And yet the bodies had been discovered. Yet relevant on the on the 21st day of October. Now these two girls had wanted disappeared on the six and one of the 14th. It's now, though, twenty four twenty first, the about caliber and one other jobs up at Poorman State pork worthy of do is get damage check the chlorine level, the discharge from the pool and there's an area where it flows into whenever you test the water and on the top.

The first is checked by Michael Batman and there he finds it declared green is fine and, on the same day, Robert Relevant is over in Macy's, trying to pawn a ring and engagement ring. Now this ring was not your typical gagement ring was a very special ring here, specifically made and sold over in in London, Paris to Big Department store over there and it was very easily identifiable, and on that day he point it for one hundred dollars and things worth a lot more, but he took the one hundred dollars that night. He comes home, Henderson call from the processors office directing him to come down tomorrow to the prosecutors office. They want to speak to him. He has to go because

get out on parole, but now he's thinking. Yesterday I pull in the ring there making me come down today. He had no idea how much they knew or anything, and he really didn't know anything. They just wanted him to come into me speak to him, so he spoken to, and now he panics the next day he goes back to Macy's and he wants his ring back. They have to keep it for fifteen days. If somebody wants to redeem it, they have to let them buy it back, but the key bring can't be found that he causes such a stink in the office screaming about this ring is going to have to have to call security to comment down. Finally, the ring

spare then he leaves with a ring and that's the last time that rings ever seen, but now later on security, when one is arrested later for these a couple of stupid break ins, the house's security from Macy's calls the prosecutors locks and tell them about this situation involving a ring. If he had made such as think that never would have happened, then it would end in a ring and his possession of it was the most vital piece of evidence we had. This ring belong to missus pains and it was the most significant piece of evidence we had with respect to were who who murdered her. So what happened? Then? The bodies were found in a couple of days The first body is found by Michael sharing, I think, was named Lucy.

He opened up the reservoir at clutched down, so it like the force, Matthew, shamming finds the body of Susan aims. The body is really a pretty well. Not by by animals, is a decaying things of that nature next morning now now. This is right where relevant and Judith Rosenberg were living after he got married after he came out of jail. This is right in the immediate area where they live the next morning, the body of Susan Rivas found and that's found in Tallman State Park. That is exactly where

relevant and Roberta. Gimbal had had a picnic on a day in August in one thousand nine hundred and seventy five a month or so before. This happened, and the interesting thing was that body what was found by the fellow who comes down to the quarry level. Again, it wasn't there on the twenty first, but, as is, they are under twenty Eightth as eight twenty. Now, whatever the date was as the the body, the sick, anybody had Willow lisas, the body had started. This integrate willowleaf had fallen on it and start to become imbued in the in the in the body as it started to bleach out as the body.

The melting, and there were no willow, leaves in that particular area. The willow treated at area, but where Sousa pains body was found, there were plenty of willow willow trees, so the body which had not been in the water in the lake, the hidden in the torment state park, clearly had been at a different location. At least some period diamond was in that week between the time of the two examinations of the water in the pipe are leaving the pool and that's exactly when relevant, got panicked and started to do things to try and cover up these murders and and one of the things that he admitted to the Williams brothers. While he was in jail that he had moved the bodies and he shouldn't have done that. He he and he tried to put him up in New York state to get away from police looking at him.

It just didn't work and moving the bodies. He said was a mistake, so they were the things that really started. You know made everyone pretty sure that relevant was the the person who was involved in these killings, so that was police have enough evidence. So when did police have enough evidence and what did they do as a result of that evidence in terms of charging them for murder grand jury? I was over these. Didn't they didn't do anything for you. They were gathering evidence. The sandblasting mask was found on the street right right up the street from where uh reef disappeared within within twenty five yards of where you know she with poured into the car. We think that the mass got kicked out through the stronger support be determined as if it was a standby thing mask. With a year

the glass play kicked out. There was the people who had seen em in close proximity to a car, which was exactly like the car that Robin had in others job in the book. It's it's a truck car reeling loaded with working equipment, things of that nature. So they didn't do any thing yet and there is still trying to accumulate Evans because, like the call from Macy's didn't come for a week or so, but we were told, the police were told that relevant if he was the one who did these murders the psychologist from the hospital, not Prendergast, but one of his associates said he's likely to do something really stupid deliberately to get caught to sorta, get him in jail

go and take him out of the crosshairs of this murder investigation. So what happens on the 30th and 31st of October? He commits two daylight breaking entries, one right across the street. Where he's doing this sandblasting on that doctors house the daytime with his car there at one on another one in a house in in. Nor would we climbed site on the second story right will the woman in the bedroom and he runs away s court and put in jail. He almost Demille plead guilty those who get sent away for two to three years in state prison on that to be an ease, and his hope, is there going to forget about me now they got other things to do. I'm here in states present, but so the police do nothing. They continue really just to try and accumulate evidence against him. So you underestimate matter fact he was never arrested on these charges. It was actually indicted when the investigation is concluded,

but he was he had never been arrested on and it's in the prison that he on these charges that he needs the Williams brothers that gets involved in this plan to murder his aunt to try and get money to worry. Ayers Edward been Wigan Sperm Whale Saint Conley, a big date time, Washington DC law firm. His can't get some seventy five thousand dollars to pay for the initial representational, probably caused by an app dollar so altogether, but she gives him seventy five thousand off the back, maybe two hundred thousand their representation. In any event, she gives him the money to hire them it turns out. Now the police are undergoing his second investigation, involving the plan to kill again and he's arrested on that charge. While he's in prison as he's planning, this murder and the date back right

have a case, they leave New Jersey, then they're not going to represent him on the murder case, but Then I'm sorry droller, let's go back a little bit, skip you're skipping over some really fun stuff. Here Williams brothers, most people, these jailhouse snitches, are famous people in numerous cases where this data television, where the cross examination says what did you get for this? What deal did you get for this and I'll tell us about the Williams why they came in close proximity with relevant? Why on earth relevant? We confide in these guys about a conspiracy to explain this and then what happens with the Williams? Who do they contact? Is there a plea agreement and, if reason, why would on earth would they do? This explained a loop

about a relationship, the kinds of things that Robin started telling them and what did they do as a result are relevant relevance in prison? He is doing is to the three year term. Was it to be at ease he havoc close friend a guy who she's come very close with down here. His name is Albert Barber called the buzzard is his nickname and they're very close and spending a lot of time together down in Rahway State prison. The Williams brothers are really big time. I mean big time breaking entry, guys they are famous in New Jersey in the South Jersey area, for the number of huge breaking entries, stealing Thea thievery that they've been involved in and probably murders to always never been convicted. Of that mean witnesses against them always have a strange way of Disip.

Hearing just before trial. Anyway, they happened to get sent because there they ve been convicted on dna or something and down in Trenton, and they they go to Rahway State prison and they are from the Atlantic City area, and they know Albert Barber and Barbara Bouchers for Visa. A barber is he's awed by them. He is eat like hero, worship of them, because you're so big, so is the one who really recommends them to relevant speed vouchers for them and their term of now. Rel then has some now here's a here's, the guy who's it just comes into jail and immediately gets a job in the in the office with the one that choice, jobs in the officers dining- good idea. The commissary area, because he knows, is Lipperty Lipperty shall guard

with a year prison guard who knew him when he was in jail earlier in New Jersey, but so they they eat speaks for them. Barbara does and they get the serbian relevant, gets them hired. He talks to Miss liberated sure if you want to buy and that was another indication of the charm this guy had he gets a prison guard to do his bidding, who he wants hired to work with him and he's very plush jobs at anyone. Well, everyone in the prison wants these jobs, but he gets there, so they they are very close and relevant has been thinking according to work. The Williams Brothers, Robin has been thinking about this plan. His initial plan is too were robbed. The aunt he wants to go to get a lot of money to help pay for defence as it is it progresses

at the time he is indicted on the murders. Now that happens in January with one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven, I believe January 20th. Seventy seven he's indicted on the murders- and it's a surprise he wasn't really didn't think- was going to happen at that time, but he's indicted and now it's sort changes at the same time, never mind the robbery, let's murder her, and so the idea. Is it's not the Williams brother going to converter because they're in jail with him? He, once it's done immediately and he wants him to provide a hitman now the Williams brothers don't know if they're being set up, I mean they are people who are targeted by by law enforcer for years and they didn't know if they were being set up. So one of these they do is they decide. Well, will call the police and let them know, what's happening and they reach out to the

because the year the indictment of Lucy Indict was was released. On January, twenty of the seventy seven and it was in the paper, so the we invest asked his wife to call the prosecutor burn counting the naked or she calls and tells their denning, who is the chief investigator on the murder cases that the brothers have information concerning these murders. Now right away red flags go up. As you start to say, you can't believe much of what prison inmates tell you. You know they're looking for a deal trying to buy some time off their sense, whatever it is they're looking for something, but he goes down and talk to him after telling all the story about about this. Sir, this comments that the realm made about moving the bodies,

things like that they say, oh by the way, he's also got us involving a plan to kill the. Yet this is like some of the war. Then he can't believe this is happening so were, but they they give it some cretin say they see letters back and forth between relevant who was transferred from raw away too were trend. State prison after it stated on the murders, are more secure, location and now there's how barber and relevant, or sending letters back and forth which have references to this job, this other job that needs to be done, involving the Williams brothers, so they finally decide to have a meeting with a guide that the Williams brothers have selected and it turns out to be a Nick Gallo is an investigator that I worked with in the Bergen County Prosecutors office. He's a guy who's very good. At this kind of work, he's done many of them. He goes down and has

conversations with relevant in jail, and then the second one I mean it's a face to face in the prison yard and relevant lays it all Audi he wants this woman killed. It doesn't bother him that this is aunt. He wants the boyfriend killed. He wants it done. He can't be done till May because he needs he needs to end to make the money available for the defense on the murder cases. So he doesn't want anything to interfere with that until after, after that, so set up that then taken murderer, so were at that time. After warlike goes, I think it's it's some by MID March thirtieth like that that they get an arrest Albert Barber and Re Robert Robin for the murders and move away and others are threatened, because their lives were

major once it became known that they had ratted on the relevant. So that I mean then it happens. You know the relevance now charged with two indictment, always he's not invited till April in the plan to kill the end, but by the time may of nineteen. Seventy seven, not making seventy one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven he's got two big indictments won a plant kill conspiracy to kill his aunt and her boyfriend and murder, the murder of Susan Reeve and Susan Haynes. These are both it over his head and now the prob becomes which draw which case it's try. First, then, how do we perceive out. Exactly why? Why does the EU? You talked about a limits? Suddenly he stuck on your book to the right. The way once it was that this murder indictment his his big

high powered law team just said, see you later now. Why is that? Did they figured he wouldn't be able to afford? Why? Why wouldn't I stay, for that was exactly the point that they knew that did they know that we did the relevant hadn't provided initial seventy five thousand dollars. They knew it come from Aunt Lillian though they did nobody else, Lillian who's, gonna, Stick by Robin or through their trial, so that they assume that the source of funds had now dried up they immediately within a day or so had the motion to beat the width far from New Jersey. You know if you're an out of state attorney- and you get permission to come to state that to handle a case like this. If you do, if you want to get out, you ve gotta, get almost immediately what you're in for a period of time before so I won't let you leave that's the problem yeah. They made professional decision, let's get outta here before it's too late, and we have to try this relevant case and have no money coming in from it.

So that's what the approach that I just knew did you knew they had a sinking ship there with that kind of guy. That's why they'll be here all through the trial. She she had said Lillian touched by the testified for relevant in the in the trial of the Georgia did they kill her and her rough read me here and she just wouldn't believe with him. She now, Even changed her, will she just didn't care Bobby? Wouldn't do this to me? He was her. Favorite so how on earth did he talk her into believing that the prosecutors and the police. Were somehow mistaken, or he was innocent of this conspiracy to river dinner companion. Well, I told you how charming he was. He just could charm women, but really what he did. He came up with the story. This his story

is that he knew this. He knew is that the Williams brothers were really working with the police and he decided to embarrass them he's going to go along with them and at the very last minute he was going to call a newspaper reporter from Bergen record who he was friendly with and lay the whole story out, but he says was frustrated because the prosecutors got their indictments so quickly. He didn't have a chance to tell everyone that he was in on this all away, I mean, is it ridiculous? But what else could he say that that was this? The argument and it will continue to support him chiefs, yes by she made She didn't change your well and then she died in the directive, two thousand and seven. Yes, yes, and giving him a point: nine million dollars. Well, she actually what she it was. I think there were six brothers and sisters she gave five.

There are five other. You know five brothers and sisters left and she gave each of them whatever it was twenty some million dollars and then go to the go to the her sister and bro Now we and relatives mother died Marie, so her her twenty million RO thereabout with divided between Susan Bob Sister and himself. That's how they they each get. Eight point: nine. It was really the mothers money which which was going to them because the mother had died down so that That's how the money got split up and so relevant lossed his money, but his sister still has the money and she continues to financially support him, especially with respect his attempt to overturn this this twenty year, parole ineligibility he was hit with the last time was up for parole. I mean

the item is at that time, in an extra twenty year, additional period before he'd be eligible parole, so there to attack not through an appeal and also the state legislature in New Jersey is now chain. Change the law, and I think it requires to get a parole hearing every three years, which you know. It's just that it's a problem. The guy like this with his money each year, they're gonna, have all kinds of bar is why you get out of jail. These no threat, any moors sister has the money he gave up. He gave up his money and he agreed to the consent judgment for ten million dollars, showing his people. How generous he is. He didn't want. The money should give it the missing. Three Mister and Missis Reed, and all these arguments as to why you should get out of jail but is being financed by his sister when he talked about the reeds petitioning through the courts through civil civil court to get money,

and then they were successful. Tell us a little bit about that yeah! Well, you know- and this is not a sum of Stan case. You know a criminal by law in most states cannot profit from his own criminal activity that this is not that kind of case. This money did not come from his criminal activity. It came as an inheritance from his, and now they had changed the law in the state of New Jersey in terms of the statue limitation uses. Statue limitations is about two years of civil matters, but the back in the early in the 1990s. They had changed the law on murders with respect to.

The end of the year, one for death, they change recycling, limited, say there is no statute of limitations. I felt as if you were to murder someone and then someone who wrote that could prove a loss of wrongful death, a loss of income or something like that. You can. You can sue the problem without. Is they omitted the survivor, your aspect of it? The survivors are different. Yours, your claim for survivors ship is the loss of companionship, the love and affection. You would have back and forth between the deceit and the person who was murdered and the family, and they had they had omitted that it was an accident, so Mister Reed hired an attorney Robert Zeller, who did an incredible job in terms of changing the law to get the stairs this overturned. To make also the survivor act not have a statue limitation

And he did then actually governor course. I find that bill on almost his last day in office here to chase the war and with that in his pocket. He then he had already filed suit. I mean David a relevant offered a million dollars in settlement of this claim. They turn them down. They got to the point, was gonna have to be a trial and Robin through into town and agree to a ten million dollar judge. You'd love against himself and that money would be. It wasn't immediately all paid out. It was paid it because the money is in trust, really relevant, never had it, it's all held in trust, and so it's paid over a period of time and, if relevant, if relevant, dies that maybe maybe the end of it. I forget now all the working some mechanics of this, but the most thing. It is ten million dollars today

and up with less, but it doesn't matter if man he either Mister Reed, the wonderful guy Missis Reed. She was in court every day. They serve three murder trial. It wasn't the money which is the idea. He could not stay at the idea that this guy would be living have had the benefit of ten million dollars, and he heard his daughter he just couldn't stand at Bruges was was not going to say nothing I'll tell you got this. Change of St Thou interesting story. When I heard of anything rule six, That's well like that. Just for the principle was the Nicole Brown Simpson oh yeah with Father he got boy I'll, tell you in jail and got the money, do so little a little bit of a happy ending, but there really is no happy endings in these stories right. So the interesting thing is relevant. As you know, we had day we had. I told you the first

I made was tried on the earth Marie Hernandez, the very first big cases involved in its own jury and then they have to be tried again. The captain rape case first trial. He gets on jury. The first murder trial, the two double murder trial, hands in nineteen. Seventy, seventy nine in the guest may of nineteen seven night. He gets a hum during one of its yours fell in love with it. One of ensures just disregard, arose, comply

quickly and just sitting there. I am not convicting him, there is family theory. They just man can't have been the one who done this. We know that for a fact, because one of the jurors was the daughter of a Bergen County Prosecutors office detective now the defendants knew who she was, but they decide to take her if she was an african American and I think they like the idea of having some diversity may be feeling about police announced Suntrust, but don't trust the police they put her on. But she to that that's what happened. This woman fell in love with relevant and she wasn't it now. That's a third hung. Jury. It's just an incredible development. The second trial, because the first trial had had been hung up in that way. I think the county prosecutors side he's going to

RO everything in and he bought in this other crimes. Evidence involving the rate of MRS gap when the assault on misses the mark Miss mud at the time and there the court's founded, I was at the trial, judge allowed, but the court ruled that was too prejudicial dependent and they threw the conviction out. So it took three trials to try them for these murders the things that happen. I mean he jumped out the third storey window. The courthouse Gordon Second trial Holly was in jail between before the appeal before the conviction reversed during the second trial. He developed a friendship very pretty woman. With a spectator in the court, and she used to talk to your and breaks which the gallery, which is furious about anyway. He gets her to come down to the on Easter Sunday. They come down to the house,

and those with a loaded shotgun in bag, ready to help him curious way out of jail. I mean maybe it's hard to believe but even that was rounded guys a little bit of body that I think either just a classic serial killer, really because he he's the consummate, TED Bundy, very, very charming, really, but Lily hell bent on hand his way and being violent, just everyone ass and whether any other murders he could have done and we sort of resources. He was Hu Jia source for such little, pier it's for tiny. First got outta jail back within the when it was put in for the violation of probation back in what seven thousand two hundred and fifty two five thousand and sixty two, they're just he was always in jail and there was never any unknown. You know open murders were done when he was out

the year prison until these to happen with Susan Raven, Susan AIDS. So everyone just says he there had to be more but the terms of being a serial killer. Buddy guess he wasn't. He wasn't pre at the time. So it's interesting to the role that Judith plays in this, but we won't give it away because I'm sure the the reader would like to hear how Judith was it is crucial in again enabling I have an alibi and so, but there you know that stories quite interesting. Little aside to the trial as well. What Judith Rosenberg did in this as well. An earth observation by helping to understand that a wife she sure you'd madly in love with him. She believed he had two women do what he would ask him to do so, Like I said, I think he has all. This is all the character. I've done this for a few years now and then

he is among that has the same kind of characteristics is a lot of these guys, the Bundy, the Ramirez you have to have what a charm to be able to do what this gentleman did, and yet you go from charming to this this rage. So it's it's interesting. Well, out of modern wanted. A funny thing is under work overtime raising, but what are we trying it for the third time? Didn't try the first two tonnes as early as the county prosecutor's office tried it, but there is the defence argued that was a conflict of interests and they sent me up from try the third case, one who's trying the case there were two men in the courtroom, each your writing everything copious notes toward open day or they are right.

They're gonna write a book now this is one thousand nine hundred and eighty six they're going to write a book on the Robert relevant about his these two murder case. Anyway, that's great so I wait mean I'm now, I'm back to office, I'm doing other things. I retire at ninety five, but there's never a book. Then I get a signed up as the acting prosecutor in Bergen County for a couple years and I now have access to all this information. I said. Let me try to take a look at this and see if I can write a book and I so I started writing. I wrote about five chapters. I read it and I realized I don't have the skills that are needed to make this a saleable product, but I did know rich beauty and we work together in the office that I knew he had written a book and I spoke to him at first. He wasn't too enthused

start a game about twelve boxes of material. He read through it all. He said you know there is a book here and that's what we started together. Push it to put this together and it's been it was, I guess, a three year job. There were very proud of what we put together: so. That's now know that great red, its value. It is hard, as you know, to take the research and turn that into exciting gauge turn right on it. You ve done it and that's why it takes so long to do that, because you know you've got to pour over it and go well. We've got to take that out. Then we gotta, and we really have to you- have to really cut out all fat and there's a lot of stuff that you gotta go through, like you say, boxes and boxes of stuff it could be in there should be in there, maybe, but which, which was very rich, was very adept. At doing exactly

that, I mean when I write I write, I write something with twenty five pages. He do it in seven or eight, because he this new yeah and authors concept, is still what what's needed to just get by you. Just can't put every single thing in the focus will be like war and peace. He said you just can't do that so what what's turned out is primarily year. His final product in mine is really great, so the burning operator yeah. I know it's very good and you've done a great interview yourself, and I want to thank you this evening for explaining the book to our audience as well. We have a rabbit. True crime fan fan ship here and people comment all the time. So I'll, let you know what kind of numbers and if anybody did make any specific comments or inquiries when people love the Show- and I thank you very much for coming on explaining about this book. The charmer about Robert Redolent and Weldon pardon me and his fascinating tail in is incorrect.

Add to stop by him all the way from amazing story of everybody in and and family sticking together, just for family sake, wow. What a story you know so: Thank you very much for me. I really appreciate what, like each other and just one just before I go there. Our website that you have for this book. Obviously people go to Amazon and they go to their local bookstore and people can. Look you guys up and it's easy to just to type in the charmer as well, but is there any special website? You have any information or not, but I have no now. Britain has one are much you're right. Well, people Amazon, great marketer, for books about what Amazon and Amazon, so you can't beat the and I'm sure it's going to be in books, those as well in the entitled towns, the publisher to itself in the last couple years. It's they ve been quite the prominent in publishing, really good titles and listen good authors in some great story. So

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