The Rocky Mountains hold a celebrated place in the "wildest" West of both myth and reality--yet this is the first-ever travel guide to the many sites associated with Colorado and Wyoming's notorious past, complete with precise GPS coordinates of significant places. Written with the same fast-paced, gripping style of bestselling crime author Ron Franscell's widely praised earlier work, The Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw Rockies takes you on a time-traveling tour through the haunts of Butch Cassidy and his Wild Bunch, serial killer Ted Bundy, the Columbine massacre, and hundreds of the West's most lawless characters. It's an indispensable resource for both criminal-history enthusiasts and travelers because each site description includes a concise summary of the location's significance, historical context, maps, directions, photos ... all with exact GPS details! THE CRIME BUFF'S GUIDE TO THE OUTLAW ROCKIES-Ron Franscell
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Good evening, this is your host dance about for the program. True murder, the motion can killers in true crime, history and the authors the written about them. The rocky mountains hold the celebrity celebrated place, in the wildest way I I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com right. Subject, change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of cost information conditions, equal housing, lender licensing office states, a number thirty test of both myth and reality that this is the first. Ever
travel guide to the many sites associated with Colorado and Wyoming's notorious past, complete with precise gps coordinates of significant places, written with the same fast paced gripping style, a best selling crime auth one friend cells wildly praised earlier work. The crime buffs guide to the outlaw Rocky takes you on a time. Traveling tour through the haunts of Butch Cassidy and his wild bunch gang serial killer, TED Bundy, the Columbine massacre and hundreds of the West most lawless characters. It's an industry, simple resort for both criminal history, enthusia, Sts and travelers, because each site description includes a concise summary of the location, significance, historical content, context, maps, directions and photos all with exact GPS details our book this evening.
Featured, is the climb buffs guide to the Outlaw Rockies with my special guest one friends. Well, thank you for agreeing to this interview and welcome back their programme RON friend Peter. Thank you for having me Dan. Well, thank you very much always fun to come to your show. Oh great you're, making me blush here so that the audience can't see that so now, for those people They aren't aware and didn't listen to our last interview last year when they were good enough to come on and talk about delivered from evil, you're really best known for, even though you've written some nonfiction and for some true crime, and you ve been at it for a little while here, quite awhile, you're associated with, which is now considered, even though it just came out in two thousand and eight. What's considered now a true crime classic and that's called the darkest night how about a murder in a small town? And you were personally involved or you- you knew
full intimately involved in the story. So this really was really close to home. For you, and not just metaphorically, like I said you did deliver from evil and then last year in twenty ten, you put out the book, the Crime Box Guide to outlaw Texas, and I know that you live in San Antonio TX, but what I found interesting was coming from the truth. I'm perspective, then also being a non fix, a fictional writer, Anna Nonfiction Writer, but having these this classic the darkest night and delivered from evil. What made you or what brought you around to the idea of combining basically two genres, which would be true crime or true crime, history and this practical travel guide. What you know,
oh, that I've looked into your past with work, will as a journalist them repose but teller audience how you came about to this idea of combining these two genres and coming up with the crime buffs guide to the Outlaw Rockies. Well, you know it did the answer. Kind of goes back a little bit to the point. When I decided I was going to write the darkest night of my intent was to explore this this monstrous crime that happened in nineteen. Seventy three to my two child friends of mine who lived right next door to me and not not just that crime and its aftermath, but also the effect on community and why even this day. Now, nearly forty years later, this small town continues to treat this as a fresh wound.
And I really wanted to explore that in and I didn't start out saying I want to write a true crime. I started off saying I want to tell this fascinating story and NGO a little deeper and in in touch ass. Some of the humanity that sticks did sticks to our memory for such a long time, and now I was fascinated by that so so the book did come out of course, and became a best seller shocking. Nobody more than me, because I thought I had just
told a good story. It wasn't a true crime writer. It just have to be a true story that was about a crime. Well, that suddenly landed me in solidly in the genre to the point. Where doing anything else became very difficult agents, editors or people along the way. Now they want a new, true crime, so continued in that, but. I've always been a history nut. An and, of course, is a journalist, I'm I'm fascinated by moments when people are Even if their best in their worst and that that usually comes down to two things, war and crime-
and so I I was fascinated with those stories as well. Well, along comes and well, I should say- and I love the road I love to be on the road. So all of a sudden, these three things kind of team together- and I was going out in exploring on weekends here in Texas, with my wife and in we were. We were finding ok history of among among it were these crime sites, and I begin to think that we might have something here if we could just do this little history book
that was about crime and just tell people where these sites are because I really believe that the history that our perspective on history is is greatly informed by standing where it happened, or at least standing in places that were significant to that history. So it all came together beautifully. We did the Outlaw Texas Book, which was very successful, and the publisher had already Contractid to do the Rockies book, because I grew up in Wyoming and worked in Colorado. This was a natural for me, and next year will have a third installment come out. It'll be outlawed EC. The Washington DC area, just in time for election year here in the United States, right interesting, interesting characters. You gonna find there while you're just that.
Yeah I mean the hardest part is trying not is trying to avoid having it be a political book. I also saw I put a high value on finding crimes that word political, even though there are a lot in there I really wanted to find something that went a little farther afield. Well, you know after this, the third one, the the guide, the box sky to outlaw DC you'll, be pigeonholed and no age and publish what you do anything. But well, if that's the case, when a well with their successful at least I get a few road trips out of it. Yeah great. Let's forget the good for you now that you know it for those people that don't know it's incredible. When I went through the book and looked at all the characters, the famous characters, and not so famous how many you know just in
read about the the list of people that you have written about in this boss guy to allow rockies now some of the more famous and we should go through them, because it is fascinating due to have some of the EU that the biggest names in crime. I think in true prime history, maybe can tell us what you found and whereabouts are geographically. This is, is the witch Cassidy where some of his HANS and though, and also his gang, the wild bunch, tell us which Cassidy Well, which Butch Cassidy was in our young young fellow born in Utah, raised in a Mormon family in and sort of a very young age started to go bad hanging out with the wrong people and just enjoy general not staying out of trouble at one point. In there he takes
a job in a butcher. Shop in Rock Springs WY, and it just happens that the guy who runs this butcher shop for lack of a better terminal up, a butcher to the to the rustlers rustlers, would Russell cattle bring enemy in an endless destroyed, slaughter, Roman cut him up in and we ve disposed of the evidence and made a buck southern. Ah, this is one of his first jobs and that's where he gets his name to that point had been George Le Roy Parker. At that point he he's known as Butch, and he takes another last name cast and that's how Robert Leroy Parker becomes, which Cassidy he then goes on to the hole in the Wall Country in Wyoming. We're which is really
an area that, because of its seclusion, is very popular all kinds of outlaws, and everybody who hung out there was loosely called the whole the Wall Gang, even though they weren't a gang. It was just a bunch of outlaws that came and went as they pleased it was there that which starts starts doing things. He does his first bank robbery in tell you ride Colorado and that's one of the sites in the book. The butcher shop in rock springs is in the book still exists. He in the late in the mid 1890s. He did you can do this himself. He can put together his own gang and in with with a buddy of his, not the Sundance kid We put together a gang and they begin robbing banks the Sundance kid
it comes along later now we tend to think of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance. Kid is being these lifelong inseparable pals, but in fact their acquaintance comes much much later. An they are presumed, of course, too died together in Bolivia, but even there are even sites around the west that are connected to the legend that they didn't, that they survived in and came back to the United States in and lived out their lives, but which is a fascinating character. It said: did he he really didn't like hurting or killing people and in fact, there's no real evidence that he ever did some of his gang did, but he gained the reputation of being a pretty friend
Lee Operator, almost a hood sort of character, and I think, if somebody wanted to write a great book, a try to a business management book based on which Cassidy approach to his business, because he took care of the people who were important to him and the were the ranchers and me people along the way that someday he might need to call upon for a place to sleep a fresh horse placed hide, you know or just not turning him in so he he really does a pretty good job. He's got a pretty good business model going there and so he's one of the fascinating characters, and I think Bush cash
city in the Sundance? Kid would be fairly well known, outlaws to us in North America, but the movie in one thousand, nine hundred and sixty nine starring, Paul Newman and Robert Red really really just skyrocketed their legend to the point where it is today. No longer allow only the way, and some of these places is- is there any attempt to set any of these up as tourist attractions? Is there anybody capitalizing on these locations or try a capitalize on setting them up the sort of Tourist attractions along the way at all. Is there anything like that? Oh absolutely yeah I mean a lot of people.
You see a lot of communities that are that have been desperate for money and tourism for a long time long ago started recognizing the potential of these outlaws to bring people to town and many of these places. When you go Can you find outlaw graves? For instance, there are a lot of places in Colorado and Wyoming, for example, where. Well known out, laws came in and trade Rob a bank in the citizenry just rose up and took matters into their own hands and and and killed them. They typically were buried out beyond the fence of the local cemetery. Maybe in
an unmarked grave as the years pass and as the sensibilities change in as the town Father's kind of recognize that they've got something here. You know after a few people show up at the Chamber of Commerce and say hey tell me where Tom Party is buried, then I realized hey. These people are coming to town in spending money to see this old outlaw. So maybe we better do something about that. So you see that all over all over the Colorado, Wyoming but other places, even Texas, where. Interpretive signs have been put up, maybe there's a billboard on the edge of town that says you know the place where this outlaw died, but yeah they are capitalizing, you see it all over and and it's rather fast
in aiding really Sundance Wyoming it, it happened. Debris. A guy named Harry Long about a young. Fifty in your old horse thief gets caught Encrypt County, Wyoming and thrown in the Sundance jail. He ultimately, you know it does his time in his release, but he also gets a nickname. The Sundance. Of course we know about that. It was within the last few years. Sundance recognizing this has has. Has a life size, bronze statue out on the courthouse lawn well of of
very long about the Sundance kids sitting in a jail cell and it's a very popular attraction for people outside of Sundance people in Sun dancers. Little discomfort because they've just put up a statue to a criminal right interesting, but the people go and see if they take pictures an it's a popular little attraction. So you see that you see that across the w when, when it's possible, you see these into could have signed. You see communities taking advantage of that another more. My Cobb example. A train rubber name, the big knows, George per rot right,
participated. Well, he was being chased by a posse and he killed two lawmen when he was ultimately caught. He was convicted, but before the sentence could be carried out, he was lynched The local townspeople visit was an extraordinary lynching. Actually local doktor cut him down and take him back to his old doctors office in his house in an dissects him just out of us in the interest of science, he says but
when his dissection is done. He begins to do some pretty strange things. He takes big knows Georgia's skull and turns the skull cap into a candy dish. He didn't do drips. The skin off of of big knows George and has a pair of shoes made. This doctor ultimately goes on to become the governor of Wyoming and he wears the shoes to his inauguration. Yeah, it's incredibly. The skull in the shoes and other artifacts are on display in in the Rollins the Carbon County Museum in Rolla. Wyoming for anybody to look a rather Greece. We display her fight again capitalizing on the interest of tourists.
Yeah, it's amazing what they eat these scrotum medical bag, ashtrays change purse with incredible gonna, go to tobacco patch out tobacco pouch. Out of the scrutiny of this outlaw some animal they'll. Just there were just. Go backwards a little bit before we introduce little bit more characters, I want We did mention that. What is the expanse of time that you cover modern homicide in this? Not just did into the wild wild West, but how far back to go? How many years would you say the expanses between the modern homicide? You cover a more modern homicides and where you started off in terms of this wild wild west history and primarily, what's what state Are you primarily concentrating on in your travels and in terms of the uh specific locations? Yeah I'll start at the end, with that the display,
regular good only looks at Colorado in Wyoming right, subsequent books will probably undertake Montana. Nevada and Arizona New Mexico which all have rich outlaw histories too, but this case only Colorado and Wyoming. The span of time this covered is from rough p d. You know that the period right after this to the opening of the west to the white man- so you know the MID eighteen hundred by all the way up into the two thousand so that we have this. This span goes from essentially the mountain man period through the guns, slinger outlaw age in
and then up through the gangster era an and then finally, you know the more contemporary where we have serial killers and mass murderers and white collar criminals, Anne Anne and, of course, some even more interesting things on the eve on the good side of the law, where we see the development of some really fascinating technologies and some heroic people. So it really covers the gamut. In terms of time now, in one thousand eight hundred and sixty four. You talk about the sand, Creek massacre, and you know I had not heard about this, I'm so it was new for me, and the EU in Colonel John Shavings, in color Calvary killed, hundreds of indian women and children
tell us why that why you included, then why you felt this was an important historic story to include in this book in general. I tried to stay away from in all of these books. I try stay away from acts of war. I because we could. We should talk about whether the massacre of Custer at the little bighorn was a prime or was just a battle in a war, but there would be no no disputing between you and me, an probably any of your listeners. If I included the meal I massacre in a book of crimes right because it was a crime, it wasn't it wasn't it
only happen during a war, but there was criminal behavior. The sand, creek massacre is an example, is the meal I of the Indian. It's one of the me lies of the indian wars, where loosely confederated military unit, Colorado, Colorado, Cavalry. Just get together and goes out looking for Indians to kill their day to day days. They come up pawn settlement of Indians who work friendly and who were who had been given permission to be where they were, but to be their soldiers get drunk and- and they just just sort of slice into this,
this encampment of Indians, Mug, mainly women and children, and massacre them ends and so those that they don't go on a you know, an incredible journey to get away all the way to Montana, so nothing is ever done, the shooting ten. Although there there are two two of his officers who absolutely refused participate because they see what this is an they meet. Interesting and quick ends after all of this, but there is no prosecution and it's is one of the real dark moments in our western history. I deemed it a crime
because, ultimately, when you look at it, there was there was. There was almost no other explanation: it was pure prejudice and and and pure hatred and pure stupidity. Behind it there was no military purposed. There was really even know military bearing at all it was. It was a horror, Letterfolk event, so I it was one of those acts that happened during a war that I decided really qualified as a crime, and there really are in a lot of those. But but that was one may agree to another story. This person was hung at the age of five z3 in one thousand nine hundred and three, and he was called the detective than the lawmen and his name was I'm horn and it seems the to be that he was lynched and and hung before up twice.
For murder that he was accused of down I'll tell us why, years later, he was there was some talk of him in review of this case that he might have been wrongfully convicted. Tell us about the idea that any Tom Oranges, one of the great legendary figures in the West and in very and any no waterways, very typical of of characters that we see throughout r r r history here here and in Canada is a matter of fact who who had at different times in their lives, have been good guys and bad guys, and sometimes the line blurred
and we're not really sure if they're good guys or bad guys, Doc, Holliday, Wyatt, Earp, Bat Masterson, you know big Bend Thompson. There's a string of these people were not really sure well hum horn is one of them in and here's he's a war hero he's got all kinds of of adventure in him. He ends up going in and becoming a stocked it active during during the the worst part of the range wars in in Colorado and Wyoming in and he's known to be a cold blooded killer and he's acting on behalf of the ranchers who hired him and and there's a string of people that he's been
that he's killed, and I don't think anybody anywhere has ever made the argument that Tom Horn is not guilty of murdering people. The question comes up in d: he murdered the fifteen year old boy whose whose death sent Tom Horn to the gal write an an. I think it could be argued both ways. It is true that horn confessed to it. It's just the lawyers arguments were that oil he was drunk and he always talks peak when he's drunk so did Tom or until Willie Nickel, I don't know, but it certainly one of the great mysteries of the old West Horn is one of the great figures of the old last and a lot of
the sites where a lot of this particular crime, men on related site still exist horn himself, buried in boulder CO, Willie Nickel, oh boy, the fifteen year old boy who he is he was convicted of killing and then hanged. Is buried in Cheyenne, but then then you dig a little farther. Can you find some other interesting things? The gallows that taught that we're Tom Horn was hanged were innovate if they were invented by a local Cheyenne guy named James Julian and. They were the first gallows that didn't require a hangman. In other words,
the condemned man would walk up the steps and when he stepped onto the trap door, uh a series of water buckets began pouring until his own weight with wood, snap open the the trap door, and he would in effect, hang himself. But Julien is buried there in Cheyenne, and the gallows themselves are still in the frontier prison in in storage room in Rawlins Wyoming, And they were actually used a few times after that
you get to see them at all, run, oh sure, yeah. Well, I actually saw them for the first time when I was doing research for the darkest night, because the two killers in that book had spent time on death row in that prison, in fact, no no more than ten paces from the gallows and the gas chamber. So you can imagine waking up every morning and see yeah.
Yeah, that's atmosphere for you, yeah yeah, that's incredible! Well! Horn horn is a fascinating figure. You he too was made even more famous by Hollywood when Steve Mcqueen played him in in a movie back in the 70s. I think so it's a lot of these people enjoy a lot of these characters, enjoy new life because of Hollywood right now, jumping up to the modern era. So to speak, we have come and it probably true crime fans aren't, as familiar with, of course, will get to TED. Bundy 'cause, we know show, would be complete without a little bit of TED Bundy right, but we have gentlemen, a young man named Charlie starkweather in his young girl in fifteen year old girlfriend. This is in the 1950s, and this is quite shocking for the 50s. We think the good old days
in a time of innocence. While please tell us about the Charlie's, Charlie Starkweather and his girlfriend in their crimes. Charlie Starkweather was a young, you know juvenile delinquent in Nebraska rub really fit the classic mould of what we think of, as these were greaser kid. From you know, West side story, or you know Greece. He just fit that mold money, It was definitely a rebel and probably didn't have a cause. He had this girlfriend Carol, Fugate Carol, Ann Fugate, and you know they typical teenage kind of thing.
Some point in their her father and decides. You know this is just not a good relationship for her and puts his foot down and Charlie, who at that moment Unbeknown to anybody else had already killed a service station attendant a couple of months before comes to his girlfriends house, kills her mother, her father and her baby sister, and then they hit the road and they David in this killing spree across you know the breadth of Nebraska Ann ultimately find themselves in Wyoming where they are. Going to steal a car. They kill traveling salesman, who sleeping in his vehicle next to the road, and it's at that moment of a sheriff's deputy drives up and sort of catches them red handed.
Caroline few gate runs to the arms of the deputy and Charlie arc, whether steps on the gas and an escapes he's ultimately chased by local law, men and arrested and he's a fascinating figure, because you know he you're right. This is 1950s. We we have been mass murders. By that point I mean we. We we we're not virginal in North America. At that point we ve seen mass murders happen, but now not really in the heartland, not like that this seemed so senseless and so shocking, and it's. Barely a year later, when the clutter family is wiped out in Holcomb Kansas, not really that far away
So all of a sudden right there at the end of the 1950s nineteen, fifty eight and fifty nine America is shaken to its core by by these senseless killings, an it really probably for at least Charlie Starkweather's case, but when you look at the two of them together, you're seeing some of that discomfort between generations getting more uncomfortable, Charlie Charlie use bad to the end. Shortly before he was executed, he here he was hanged. They asked if he would donate his eyeballs to science.
And he said no, why should I nobody ever gave me anything an that? Would that was it, so he he was he's interesting any intercourse. Again we go back to Hollywood. Martin Sheen plays a Charlie starkweather character in the movie badlands. We see similar characters in natural born killers, absolutely. Now the locations that you visited. That concern Charlie Starkweather on his week long ram page here is killing spree How many locations would you say that there are and tell us about some of those some of those specific locations that you travel to and that were regarding Charlie Starkweather.
The key ones are the police that at that moment, when he is he in his girlfriend have killed this travelling salesmen in his vehicle and a deputy aegis by chance derives up that spot is known, is not widely known. I actually interviewed these son of that deputy the deputies dead now, but his son he had taken his son there. You know this was the biggest thing in this deputies life he had taken his son there over the years and said here is where I found Charlie starkweather in and so that son was able to take me to that spot. Charlie was Ulta Lee arrested after this high speed gun battle.
Many miles away at a little crossroads, again known because of police reports at the time And then, and then some of the people involved, we have located their graves now, so that we know where those are the jail were here he was held, is no longer there, but we know the spot. So so it it's things like that. An when I get around to Outlaw Nebraska will have many any more related to Charlie starkweather. Now he's a character that really when we talked about people turning things into tour subtraction- and I mean obviously he doesn't have them apology or hollywood- be enough,
what has an immortalized and per se but Charlie Stark Weather is there's not too many. It's not turned into a tourist attraction concerning him in his girlfriend. So much is now. I am, I think it might be a little too fresh where humanely see that is with the long long dead out was who almost occupy a different realm. You know a different parallel universe. We, like I said data at the outside, of the people of Sundance who are uncomfortable with building a statute to a criminal you'll, see many. People like that, you see plaques in tell you ride Colorado, there's a plaque on the building that was the bank. When young,
which Cassidy robbed his first bank, and so they have a plaque on the bank This was the first bank that Bridge Cassidy Rob not not. This was the bank I am making this up now, but why don't we see plaques say now, this is the bank where Young, SAM Walton put his first dollar. He horror Warren Buffett door, but we don't see. I hope that we have this
ass, a nation without was again, I think the DAS Das. What we see in this, like I said I think what's what's interesting to me- is that in crime and war both we see humans in their most vulnerable. We see them at their best and we see them at their worst and we see he rose. We see terrible terrible villains, so this life story gets played out and if we can get enough distance from it so that it doesn't seem personal, then then we can read. In it to a certain degree and so yeah? I don't think you're going to see Charlie starkweather monuments or anything, maybe ever, but it's certainly not not until a few more generations have passed.
There are one of the darkest moments in american history is also involved, is also covered in your book, as well with the Columbine Mass Current Colorado for somebody to just got off a boat somewhere. I guess maybe you could debris, they tell us about column by, but also the afraid, I'm not the effect which, as we know, the fact must be met new mental for the community, but tell us what you found in your travel. Why you included to Columbine ass occur. I mean it's obvious, but important is it? Is it to the book and what are some of the significant locations? As specifically,
but you ve included, ended. There were obviously kind of moving to you, as you have included in the book. Well Course Columbine. He is one of those transformational moments for four for those of us who lived at that time and you know, you've got it. Wasn't the worst mass murder in american history. It wasn't even the worst school shooting in american history. It was partly driven. I think the Publix shock was partly driven by the narative. That sprang up very quickly that these guys were getting even with bullies. We now know, of course, that no they were the bullies,
they delighted in bullying, people- and this was this- was just part of general behavior that they add, although obviously the worst part of it they were bullies. These were bad kids. They were delighted that they could do the things they did, but this you know, of course, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. The two shooters were dealing clay, bold and Eric Harris and they killed. You know they went.
In intending to you know, set off a bomb and then to kill people as they ran, kill survivors as they ran away. The bomb didn't go off, so they decided well, which is going to go in and shoot shoot everybody an so for basically, forty nine minutes, they they just wandered around killing their classmates. An it's horrifying. I think. During the during this research, I was given the security surveillance videos from inside the school, where you see them going to from desk to desk and shoe
Keep your kids are hiding underneath and ultimately in in rather vivid detail, frightening detail. You know what a surveillance tape looks like it's. It be speaks a certain reality as they sit down together in the library and count to three and then shoot it did shoot themselves Sosa, shilling, it's as chilling videos. I've ever seen. But in the grander, since you know why why did this? Why did this event? Why has this event become code? Why has Columbine just the word become code for a mass
when, when really we have other examples, we have worse examples in Mcdonald's, its anti she in the Texas Tower in Austin, and I think it's because we were just we were just at that moment in our history, one. Thing. I found when I was writing about delude, but the survivors of mass murder in delivered from evil was dead dead. I believe we we are. We are in this muck, hob, sort of perverse.
Rhythm and that we are shocked by these these events. When they happen, then we grow a little complacent. Then we forget- and once we forgot and we're ready to be shocked all over again- and you see these things going on a kind of twenty year cycle so that you have the bath Michigan Mass murder, which remains one of the worst in the United State. Ever in the night, nineteen twenties by the nineteen forty you have Howard and ruin and by when Howard Unruly kills people in Canada, New Jersey, on his walk of deaf people, wanted to call it the first time that wasn't the first time. It's twenty years later, when Charles Whitman goes up Texas Tower and we're all shocked about it again right twenty years after that San Isidro, Mcdonald's, Mcdonalds
and then the Luby's cafeteria twenty after that Virginia attack. While so we are when we get shocked every time, is it's it's an incredible thing to go back and read the accounts and see that Columbine just kind of family. In there we were just ready. We were just ready to be shocked again. He had already due to work to get some credit today colonies, while he really like who initially was you talk about the narrative that it was these people were being cacti call the trench go gay. It also it right. If there was a narrative that was, as he discovered in journalist, discovered for themselves. It was wrong, it was-
so they jumped to some conclusions and it seemed to be nicely drawn, but it was far more complex than that. The store we see that every time we see it every time when Jerrod Lee Lochner shot Gabby Giffords in Tucson last January, the immediate narrative was he must be on hardcore conservative, who has been in influenced by this hateful speech coming from talk, radio right and I was interviewed on CNN, and that was how they wanted it to go. That was the narative that they were playing right then and I was saying no, he any kind of looks like a normal garden
rioting, mass murderer alone, angry and angry lone wolf, but that that narrative played for for about a week before it started become clear, noted, disguise and angry in deluded lone wolf. So there's a tour I there have been in every big mass murder. There's always been a narrative that debt that immediately leaps out. That is almost always wrong. I I can't think of one where it was right. Well, I think one that you've included in your book that really no one ever got wrong for long, I think, is Mister TED Bundy, probably one a infamous serial killers of all time. Here's guy that really the people knew from
to get go anyway. At least law enforcement knew that they had a bad guy here. It's too bad, they weren't as secure as they possibly could. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about TED Bundy, why you included TED Bundy in this in this story, some of the locations that you discover, because TED Bundy was a traveling serial killer for sure not being in Colorado, but tell us about TED Bundy and what you discovered writing about TED Bundy in these and in relation to these locations. Well, of course, TED Bundy is in some ways associated with really three states. I don't think his crimes were comf, find two three state, not bad, but he's associated very strongly with with you, Tar Colorado in Florida
an end to some degree because of an rule, the northwest, so that those are the spots well course I'm writing about Colorado and what's interesting, I think about Bundy, and he really is the apex of you know the serial killer mystique in this country in much in the same way that Manson is the apex of the mass murderer. I think that what you see is a handful of of murders likely well
in one case definitely and my friend Kevin Solvent, and I think you ve been on your show before I could tell you or not specifically in some of these cases, whether Bundy is is in fact guilty or whether is worse or better than what we think, because he was never convicted Monday escaped twice while he was to be standing trial for one of those Colorado, murders and Anna Course went to Florida, where ultimately, he was caught convicted in ultimately executed, and here we are today now somebody finds a vial of Bundy's blood and we're putting it into the Codis system to see if there is he's related to other unsolved murders. I don't think we'll ever be over
for TED Bundy, but his time in Colorado. He definitely he definitely left a trail of bodies in Colorado. I think the question is whether whether there are more than we think, or even in a couple of cases, weather we've. Pinned a murder on him that maybe he didn't do anything real killer is, has gotten away with it. No, the for those that don't know it's Colorado is where he escaped and went on to Florida was there any did. You was the court
close or any other location, and when he was on the run part of Europe. Yes, he escape twice because he had a had gone to law school. He was allowed to represent himself in the in the murder case in Colorado and, as part of that was allowed access to along library, in the county courthouse in ASP in that law? Library is on the second floor of the courthouse and it's it's a fairly Paul Courthouse, but he he went to that law library one day and crawled out the window and dropped to the ground below an and was at large
for several days finally arrested. But then they took him down. The Glen would springs Colorado to be held in what they thought was a much more secure jail, but he then escaped from that jail and ultimately, of course, found his way to Florida so that deck Linwood Springs jail doesn't still exist, but but we know where it was an e Pipkin County Court House, where he escaped from the law library does still exist in the book they have. You know I have a picture of the window where he escaped, so I also have the place where he abducted, killed and abducted and killed. One of his victims in in
aspen, so you know, and then there are other little Bundy related sites all over, but those are the key ones. Now you, the monk were incorrect. Here there was: is it Highland cemetery in your book? Will you talk? Is there one cemetery that you visited? That has its more than the lion's share of entry in characters residing in the cemetery? Oh yeah, I mean. Certainly in Denver. You know we have MT. Cemetery in Denver has has come an array of of people, all the older Denver cemeteries, have have on a map
We re of of good and bad figures from from crime history. One of the interesting stories in here is the story of of Cheeseman Park in Denver, which is of eyes imagined central park, but it's in Denver. What's Cheeseman Park used to be was the city cemetery and back at the turn of the last century, a local mortician was hired to dig up all the graves and transplant them elsewhere, so that they could make this beautiful park. Well, he he was, you know he was a con man himself and was overcharging. City. They were sometimes not digging up the graves, but charging
or they were charging to dig up a grave, but then they were getting paid by the coffin. So they would order children's coffins and break up a body into as many pieces as they possibly could so that they could get paid three or four times the amount that they should have anyway. He doesn't get the thing cleaned out completely before he's arrested and uh I so we actually have his grave mart in the book. But the fact is this: this beautiful expanse of green and in the center of Denver. There remain thousands of unmarked graves there that they, they run across from time to time. The botanic
gardens would we're just expanding and and came across several of them. So every time they stick a shovel in the ground down there. They are reminded of this con man who took him for a ride. Now, the gps, you talk about the GPS coordinates poor. All these laws patients as well was that year. That was initially your idea was that someone else idea and in our view, has a book then received? Firstly, the Crime Box Guide outlawed Texas, for that simple fact that people actually just don't have a description that sort of vague they now with this technology of the gps coordinates so that they actually for those people that are the potential fan and the potential inquisitive mind can go to these actual places and find them quite easily. Thanks to your book.
Well, it actually, my wife and I were driving in Northern Louisiana and I wanted to see the spot where Bonnie and Clyde were ambushed and died. So we got to this little small town that I knew to be nearby and I stopped, and I asked directions- and the fellow gave me some directions that and out to be wrong. So we came back to the town and ass somebody else. There directions turned out to be wrong, and so on a third trip we finally scored. We found somebody who could really tell us where it was. We went out there and I think it was at that moment. I said to my wife: right when it just be easier that when you ask for directions, somebody gave you gps coordinates and I think that's when the light bulb went on, I said well,
hey: why don't we do that? What's right, I don't we gotta GPS right here and now, what kind of where it began the gps part of this. That's where it began so tat his fascinating. I think that people with GPS are doing much more comfortable with them this this gets them much closer and any in the you know with did there are slight differences between models and whether it can make a few but you're going to be usually within ten feet of the exact spot, and when we go to these places we're trying to get an exact spot. I want example:
old Abraham Zapruder, who took the famous film of JFK being assassinated, stood in a specific spot. That's a known. We were able to put the gps device where his feet would have been, so you could follow your gps device and b reasonably certain that you're, where it happened right. Well, that's fascinating! That's incredible!. Kredible addition that you stumbled across or that you came across at the right moment then then it's just sort of keeping your mind open to the possibilities as as you know, being a writer yourself. That's that's half the battle sure, certainly all that's! It's been greater, We're talking about that. I also want the letter. Audience know that you're going to be back on in a couple of weeks again talking about a book, that's prob,
the very, very close to your heart. Without a doubt, the sour told club cocktail, the you got an odyssey of father and son, and the father and son happened to be yourself and your son bright, and so we're going to be talking about that in a couple of weeks and that's on Tuesday instead of Wednesday October. Fourth for the audience has been listening so far this evening. It's going to be I'm looking forward to that. The I also find it it'll be fun. Yeah, it's gonna be great as we variant sting read too so I will be starting at very very soon and looking forward to anticipate read that now. I just wanted to say to for our audience. You have written some nonfiction as well. Maybe you can tell us about those three books that are still available and also we talked about delivered from evil and also the classic now soon to be true crime classic the darkest night really best selling true crime book.
Get some you could find it everywhere. Tell us about your nonfiction and then tell us again just remind us about when the crime boss guide to the outlaw outlawed DC is gonna, be released. Well already, she will be out in two thousand and twelve budget is closely. I can get right now. We, I don't think a puppet has been announced. My three earliest books were novels Angel Fire chosen, a literary novel setting. Why homing, where I grew up and then to mysteries and also said in my opening one of them, oddly, has to do with a dead old, outlaw. Queen boat isn't about her, but you mixed in there and in oddly enough this little
down, is trying to make her into a tourist attraction. So those first three novels and I think that very soon I'll be going back to fiction a little bit. It's I need a break right. Yeah two crime can be taxing, I'm I'm sure. I've heard that from other crime authors as well, it's hard to be immersed in it completely and not come up for a little bit of something completely different, so yeah. I understand that that's great well! This is something completely different: the true crime, buffs crime, boss guide to the Rockies and, of course, the previous crime robots guide to outlaw Texas. So I want to thank you very much for this interview RON and come on and and speaking about this excellent and and look forward to talking to you again about another book. That's coming up very close to your heart. This hour, told club cocktail and that's October. Fourth- will be talking about that.
That'll be great, and I it's my pleasure to be on here with you Dan. Thank you so much well, it's been pleasure and I'm sure our audience pleasure and we always get a lot of comments in Europe. Great interview, and I want to again thank you very much for coming on this little program and have yourself a great evening. I will see you in a couple weeks. Ok, thank you RON. Alright, Dan bye, bye, goodnight. Listen to the programme to murder the more shocking killers in true crime, history and the others that have written about them with your host Dan Husky, good night message and data rates may apply, Tnc and privacy terms can be found in Bible, dot, com, slash terms, please don't text and drive. Do you want to learn to speak a new language, but don't have enough time? Then you need to try babble, the language learning app that you can try for free babbles. Lessons are just fifteen minutes or less and you can go at your own pace. You'll be amazed at how easy Babel makes it start.
First lesson in the language of your choice for free download, the Bible, app or text begin to four thousand eight hundred and forty eight forty eight text begin to four thousand eight hundred and forty eight forty, eight mister, deploy Tnc in pharmacy terms can be found in Bible, dot, com, slash terms, please don't text and drive. Do you want to learn to speak a new language, but don't have enough time, then you need to try babble, the language learning app that you can try for free babbles. Lessons are just fifteen minutes or less and you can go at your own pace. You'll be amazed at how easy Babel makes it start. First lesson in the language of your choice for free download, the Bible, app or text begin to four thousand eight hundred and forty eight. Forty eight text begin to four thousand eight hundred and forty eight forty eight
Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.