Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com right. Subject, change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of cost information conditions, equal housing lender license in office and the number thirty the world is changing at a rate like never before. So why is an education at Strayer University? We make transferring credits simple, create binge worthy course, content to keep you engaged and design ai powered tools to help. You graduate welcome to the future of education, Strayer University out with the old school enrolling Strayer University today and get a brand new laptop to help. You finish your bachelors degree laptop offer, subject to restrictions and requirements. Strayer university certified to operate by chef,

Oh. You're not listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true cried history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, I the night I got DC came every week. Another fascinating operate talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist, Ann Arbor, Dan, asking. Good evening, this is your host dance of asking for the programme to murder the more shocking killers and true crime, history and the does it have written about them. In here, 1970s Frank Matthews became America's biggest drug.

Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com break. Subject: change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of cost information conditions, equal housing lender license in office and the number thirty His organization, headquartered in Brooklyn, stretched across more than twenty states became the only black gangster to establish direct ties to the french connection Heroin pipeline after being sighted in one thousand nine hundred and seventy three. He disappeared with fifteen to twenty million dollars in drug profits. Equivalent to totally one hundred million in today's cash, despite one of the largest manhunts in US history, Frank Matthews hasn't been seen, since

there is no proof of whether he is alive or dead. To quote the federal prosecutor assigned the Matthews case. He is a pioneering giant of drug distribution. His organization of this eventually outgrew, even the italian mafia, when he built himself a mansion in Staten, Island's, most exclusive neighborhood and across street, a mafia boss, podcast allow he found himself on the verge of war with la Cosa Nostra. He also battled militant blackmail, homes for control in the streets of New Jersey and Philadelphia's. He built his empire. They made two story of rank. Matthews rise to power is America's biggest Cancun and how gave justice for nearly forty years, it is in the Frank Matthew story be discussing this with this. Is a documentary movie to Frank, Matthews story with my special guess: RON, chaps, thick and Al Profit and our show is the Matthew story and I'm just going to connect with RON. We had a little bit of issue with our other guests

now Bradley when we're going to put both of these people on the line right now,. Good evening, gentlemen, good evening run and good evening out good evening, how's it going it. Thank you very much regret To this program, just for our audience, we normally do books and why I put this in the book grace because IRAN Ron is an author and our z, film maker and they've done extensive research and I think the audience that are interested in the books of RON Roncesvalles done extensive, true crime coverage of mafia- and I am true crime in America and these team with RON his team with Al Profit and created this movie. This documentary true story, the Frank Matthews story. So gentlemen, please of our audience a little bit of your background first

Libya, IRAN and then out and tell us why you decided to team together and to write to write this story and then to produce this film. The Frank Matthews story. Ok, then, thank you for inviting us to the show, I'm also working on a book on Frank Matthews, for that sits in with your pussy, with your general theme for the show and I'm hoping ever done, and maybe about nine nine months or so. Actually, I've been researching myself, Frank Matthews, since I did my book gangsters of Harlem, which came out about five or six years ago, and I uncovered the story of Frank Matthews and I couldn't believe who hadn't been nothing written about it since one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven is a book called easy money, but it's out of date and it doesn't really deal with the most interesting part of story. What happened to that were able to master? He jumped Bill Nike. Seventy three

and I had various people that wanted to work with me because I was running to crime and these people, where you know recognizing me and then my ended yonder was writing it but never seem to work out, and I met AL through mutual friend and always admired his work. I thought he was a great great, filmmaker and we always thought about working on something down the line, but you know he's in Detroit. I'm in South Carolina so would have to be a very special situation for us to get to you and and I had my right managers especial right right and add a couple of your there's that were good. When I worked with me on this Matthews thing, they never seem to work out. So I'll call me last fall and said you gotta get this thing down these did. I told him that several people have died, last five years and that the story is very hard to research and waited much longer. The story would disappear and we

very hard to document- and you know, he's one of the most interesting gangsters in in american history, and so we teamed up. We did the research, my skills, research, interviewing as an afterthought, editing and- and we put the story together and you know what seems to be a success it while of people you're like the story out well yeah, like RON said we were aware of each other's work and you know mutual sort of fans, and we had briefly talked some years ago about his work on the Frank fuse, and I was very- a tree 'cause. Obviously it's one of the great untold stories of american criminal history, so, as I saw the time was passing and he wasn't able to kind of bring bring this move to fruition in Hawaii we got together and we we did it.

It was. It was quite eye opening experience and he had done a tremendous amount of research already that served as the base, but even as we delved into it more and kind of started to put the pieces of the puzzle together, we saw just how big of a mosaic So Frank, Matthews story form, so it was very interesting for both of us. This isn't like my six crime. Document or have done depleted feature. Film, also name, shame, Orban, and the background and economics ever measured, green economic. So I like to bring a cannibal soldier so historical view to these crime, documentaries and right Anna is same way. You know we like to place these things into a social context and racist crimes.

Part of american history in gangsters are apart of mail component. Frank Matthews are part of american history dislike, you know, Dwight, Eisenhower and Steve jobs and their important stories, and this is really important and really interesting right. I think yeah. I was talking about bringing the socio economic in bringing the historical background making more than this, You'd about gangster documentaries. Both because may require back off would be both compliment economic background. We both have masters degrees and you know Alice specialist in economics and I'm in history. So we put it together and you know we appreciate the historical context and that's why we try to bring out in the documentary. Well, I want to congratulate you guys on this film to an end, and I watch a lot of documentaries and there's obviously good documentaries and there's not so good documentaries, but uh. I think your documentary is is very good, but also that it plays like a movie and also be.

This is a historical context that you put everything in its very enter, and the thing is it's: it's a new breed of of documentary watching a film you watching a documentary. It's it's got contempt. Free music, rather than maybe the something that you might see in a documentary and it moves very very quickly and it really hold attention. It's it's great. It's like it's like an action movie and that's what I love. I want to congratulate you guys for taking a man. The idea is to trade trade Kappelman. Thank you to realize tat. You guys are really pudding for the idea of true crime. As is entertaining is fiction, and I think that's what's happening, you see in the compilations end. In true crime as well, I think it's uh. Nobody can even come up with stuff. That's this dramatic in this exciting and interesting in fiction. So I applied you guys for digging up a story. I had no idea- and I know the audience will be intrigued by this guy-

he's very charismatic guy now saying that let's get to the Frank Matthews story, because I don't think their audience knows and so introduce Frank Matthews who we and end where he grew up and tell us a little bit about the rise to power, to Frank, Matthews, obviously ascended to but take us back to the beginning of Frank Matthews life you could set of it before he does. If your listeners are on the computer, they can go to frankmatthewsmovie dot com and he had an instant Donald Insane Digital Download. So they could actually have the documentary before the assurance. How glad saw it it's it's the waning days of world war, two a baby is born in. We think Mississippi named Frank Matthews and after few years he he ends in Durham, South Carolina growing up with some relatives now,

of course, being black in one thousand nine hundred and forty four nine thousand and forty five in the United States and growing up in the 50s was not a lot of economic apple Shorty, but where Frank actually grew up and Durham NC was a little bit of a different case. It was known as the Black Wall Street, in a tremendous amount of black ants, preneurship and black wealth and, while Frank himself to not grow up wealthy. He grew up in please seeing ah a blank entrepreneurship, etc. Now a lot of a positive, successful people came out of Durham. Of course, Frank chose, go a different path when he was in his teens. He leaves North Carolina. He goes to the NE apps briefly in Philadelphia. He ends up in bed. Stuy Brooklyn in the MID 60s and what's going on in New York and in the country good time, while it's the rise of the drug culture,

arrow one is moving in. You. Have young people experimenting with drugs? You have Vietnam veterans coming back from overseas with heroin problems and somehow by a very early age like early to mid 20s. Frank is working with italian mafia in a high level and some other big time gangsters and he's become a very large heroin dealer in New York, but then it some point it's unclear here when the late 60s, maybe one thousand nine hundred and seventy he circumvents the italian mafia, becomes the first african American or probably the first gangster of any kind to outside of the local channel strip to establish it direct contact with the french connection for heroin, and he starts going down to Venezuelan. Getting here on. It came bringing it back to the you are having it sent back to the: U S and corner we search and things. We were told that the EPA and Etc

Bradley in all one thousand nine hundred and seventy seventy one hundred and seventy two, probably the biggest drug dealer in the United States, Liege of like two thousand eight hundred and twenty nine right and the house the right context, the context of love of the Euro. That thing might be operated very interesting, maybe ten years before he kind of operating, because the french connection was the major pipeline to the United States, the YAP, the opium. I was gone in Turkey and the other refineries in more say, that's really get the projected found and it was distributed through my job and New York, and I was in the end the italian radicals in Austria control this

distribution network and that they had ninety five percent of the heroin pipeline and the did. The bags were essentially the handmaidens of the Italians and they said we would be worked on the street. The only word It gave rise too high over the organization because the Italians are clannish, but in the late 1960s law enforcement had a lot of success. Taking on the french connection, if you maybe we, the french connection, like you said, I do get up privatized Vista. This circle was a development and because the french connection began to break up, it opened up opportunities for black, and this was done in the context of the sort

right you were to lack power lacks the more assertive they wanted and work controlled in the neighborhood, and so they were becoming much more aggressive in terms of getting a piece of peace in the eye. Ass, a Frank Matthews came at the right time, while nineteen the MID 1960s, he started to the only heroin. So what time is it early, Nike seventies came around. The french connection was really fragmented. You had a big heroic effort. Panic in the United States, which created a huge market. It was like the perfect storm and Frank Matthews was able to take this opportunity to become the biggest drug dealer in the United States. No one question I had a lot of this is that maybe you can explain how he could possibly do this, the power that you may have to have to be able to do this? How could he far from being the head maiden of the Italians with the locals and Austria too,

circumventing their participation? Can you explain it a little bit more in terms of this very unusual in and is not very tolerable. I wouldn't is they're out there, but what are they aerial about it? There's the great mystery? How did he know what what went on had something that in our research in all Emil, the federal government hasn't really figured out now the repercussions of that as you as you intimate it, were that the Italians didn't like it, and there was a great deal of animosity at some point between the highest ranking members, such as parallel Gambino family, look, easy with Frank Matthews, and all that was exacerbated, and this is just another really interesting part of the story

Frank, when, at the height of his power, built the house and moved his family into the most elite, part of Staten Island and the same black with two of the biggest mafia chieftains of the day, and if Ryan wants to expound upon this. Right watch what we have to give a lot of credit to Frank, Matthews and I'll, explain: well, the environment that he grew up So when he came to New York, you know a lot of a lot of blacks. He was part of this migration that have been going on since world war, one where we go back from the S with the north right and North Carolina. Most of tax evasion ended up along the eastern Seaboard, Philadelphia, Baltimore and New York. And a lot of unwanted he'll work legally ambitious. They wanted the legal things but Frank wanted to be a big time gangster that what that's, what he did and

When you left everything he did was a related to illegal activity, and you have to give frank credit because he was A very unusual guy in our will attest to this. Even the law in force the debt investigated and try to bring him down. Have this respect for him through in our inner documentary with it. He can around you know you can write any Mcdonald's, he has twenty or thirty Mcdonald's. So I should Gary says that so he was four year wet with a tremendous business sense and he was able to see beyond in the hood. You know even the italian spot, like that, you know they weren't very, very strategic minded. They didn't think outside of New York City but Frank, had big ambitions to franchise his operation and for the time law enforcement caught up to him

He wasn't even in twenty one states, which is unheard of. You know there weren't any gangsters at that time, big time, drug dealers operating at that level. Now the thing is that tell a little bit more of the extent of his power. At that time you talk about controlling the currency Board an and heroin. What the money you guys start with, which spoke about it in the army spoke about it in the introduction in in terms of giving people the same of how much money this would be. What are we talking about in term? of a yearly empire of money, and what did he own and where did he live? Tell us the kind of wealth and opulence. This guy lived in well to review engineer: there were wiretaps, the DEA intercepted with the Matthews organization talking about securing one hundred. He will loads of heroin from the french connection now

the time Heroin one is the street even buying in bulk. It was probably less than ten percent. Pure software organization was getting all nine five percent pure heroin, so they cut one key all under ten, so they become means a hundred becomes a thousand. So it's a thousand keys its weight thousand each wholesale twenty million dollars in nineteen seventy dollars, which extrapolate allows about sixty one with inflation, since twenty million dollars wholesale. So I mean even if you're, going to head for five times a year, you're talking about one slash, two billion dollars in all our policies. You're right you're right when they Roger Great one of the big eyes we interviewed with idea talked about defining sunlight was a criminal in addressing angle of two and a half million blessing. I walked. What are you

straight out later now tell us a little bit about, Well, a little bit about Frank Matthews, though the charismatic Frank Matthews, the guy that you do. You have some priceless interviews in there with friends and cohorts, like you say, even the DEA and FBI guys are kind of in admiration of the guy. It seems like they would be hanging out with them. They really admire him. So tell us about what made this guy this self made man, because he starts off when he moves as a barber and then, of course it is no one really knows, but his charm and charisma lead him to the next thing in his life. Tell us a little bit about free Matthews, the garrison, a guy, the friend sometime, I think you, may I make a pact with the devil. Does what all the things that he had? Other everything that that you can pack into one individual,

for example. I mean I'm amazed at how many woman in you and there are still coming out of the woodwork yet though he had woman at every single city on an stewardess on air, Playboy bunnies in Atlanta and TAT for a guy that operate at that level. Could he was a businessman with operations in twenty one days, and seventy working for me that he was able to do that is his appetite for life was just amazing and I d make anything that we found was that nobody dislike them? How would we know we intervene by disliked him yeah? They fear growth, because you either take your business and he did. He was involved either directly indirect. You lived with summers with some murders, but I mean people like them. He was generous there stories in their about him leading money and forgetting it and you're telling the guy to keep

your rather than and taken your taught. You talk about that. You'll chump change, your lighter commanded argued I'm forty thousand dollars you'll end and money in that range networking, and so he was generous you to your. U is of tremendous serve tremendous we attractive, you'd, very handsome, be described as having having the upper, the other about above wave after, but I no evidence that Europe that he was lifting anyway but he was well bill. You could get your business, he was really tough, and the really interesting thing about him. He had a high pitch voice, Yet a really big boys in that you, a couple of people mimicked his wife to the animal. Your tabs and then you personally in Durham of the various. Cannibal shakespearean character. You get a different view,

Avam, depending on who you interview. Obviously law enforcement was watching, am distribute. You know vast amounts of narcotics, but it's funny. Even when you interview the guys they were getting drugs from him. Like the two guys we interview in Baltimore, big brother and Liddy John they're anecdotes, our care more about You know hanging out with them and womanizing and it was almost like the drug dealing was ancilla re. You know they were just friends hanging out and have a good time and oh yeah, you know here's your honor hundred thousand for that hair when you gave me- and I think he has never change- was a murder Anders Real, no farm. I mean there's rumors of him being involved in more, but there's no firm evidence. We never heard any specific names and I'd think he insulated and put them can himself by. Ah,

for one thing he was the golden goose of you are his friend, you make a lot of money easily and and uh people like them and they didn't wanna see anything bad happen too often, people didn't want to give information against him and he didn't wanna Raveman kill and they wanted most interesting interviews to me in a documentary 'cause, it was unexpected was of Keith Dima, who, in his wife, John who keeps diamond, was a tutor of the Matthews children anyway, the early 1970s or you have this young jewish teacher, who gets sent over from his tutoring service to tutor these kids and he finds himself in the house of what he later found out to be. You know this huge gangster what he talks about it being a very normal Ethel. Outsold very well behaved all kids and meeting frankman to several times and just kind of

thinking. He was some kind of businessman, but certainly not having any suspicion of you know. He really was Doing so. Amazing frankness FED is like a chameleon, or maybe it was just so complex. He arm. You eat veto Tudor, he told the truth be told the tutor in neighbours that he was involved in real estate State right of any man who was involved and real estate, he wasn't Bobby we'll, say you gonna. Why did I have read that every eliminate all anxiety? I didn't get a couple of our companies and he was in fact that one of the deferral prosecutor said that you never got indicted and all that he could have been a multi millionaire because of some of the things that he had and I was planning to have on that, and so that shows his his ability. He was a sharp, sharp businessman

and you know left never left the scene. Who knows what will would have done? I mean God he could have been, maybe the biggest gangster of all time, pretty close in making that claim that now, though, getting back to the the La Nostra, because I think that's interesting to people that this. This sounds like something out of sopranos. It's not surprise would think of this, where a guy moves into the same neighborhood across the street. From these guys, like you say, circumvented, either they don't get heroin from these guys plus he's a major player. You just nobbut his nose at these guys we don't know, how is he dies killed is right no attempt. There's nobody really explain to us why he, went there. I mean nobody ever the coincidence or was it on purpose right, so imagine the coincidence he's living in Brooklyn and he moved to Staten, island and right across the street, and we went down the street. I mean it's like

The way to each other across the street and two hours of thou, I write about it, so he moved there and you know we heard the explanation that he wanted a good environment for his kids, which was probably probably true. I mean a lot a place. You can have a good bye yet without into an earnestness in a world where were they? Where are the italian mafia was and some, as you saw in the documentary it created all kinds of problems. Were really outrage, you know I could get eyes were lower. Prices are tiny, other races in that didn't want lax in the neighborhood and because this is the sort of an insult, and the fact is that we found out that even informed, even if one gun on Frank, he had a pipeline to the due to the Parties an alcoholic out will remember that there was amazing. We we saw. One the gas from Baltimore. Sorry about how frank I am there

and being over at the time, was the head of the Mafia Commission. His eye is subordinate Paul Castellano, who later became the head of the Gambino's and that's actually with John Candy, kill, take over the Gambino crime. Family was giving the license plate and other information from everyone to shore up the Franks House to the ba, and it will- and I can a thought while isn't true or whatever but federal secure, said tat. We we're receiving quote unquote anonymous information was pouring in about every license, plate and went to Franks House. So that's the level of threat that they thought he was an apparently they didn't feels are strong enough to do that. Go ahead and what violence, because the wiretap wherefore Frank, a all the high ranking math. Remember few one of my men

go down on Mulberry Street and shoot every wife, I see so Frank, had enough money and enough manpower and enough and enough maybe eyes with corrupt police. Who knows that he was able to at least for a brief amount of time stand toe to toe with the ahead of the Mafia Commission tell Dubai, we really don't know what would happen if he wasn't indicted, because that situation was intolerable. I mean it couldn't have continued without some kind of confrontation, probably violently. You know something would happen. Bourbon earlier had hit placed on maybe retaliation and it could have been really a mess on that. But the fight was indicted rested in July? One thousand nine hundred and seventy three indicted, and you know the family. We should talk about Barbara Hinton, who is Even with all that woman, he still had a family life as our right to with the tutor and all, and he had a common law. Wife,

meanwhile, were hidden and three children. Can they move from some forty hour after hour, Frank was indicted. How would you know how much did you how much they did the authorities believe she knew about this business. Was she oblivious or how much did she know about what was going on while she was uh, sure is a woman and Roger Garee in there is one of the deviations again Ruth retired Ass upset that they believe that she handled the money part. So she was very active in the organization and she was indicted after Frank, split and disappeared took about eighteen months, but several members of his organization where we were brought to trial and ass. She was brought to trial as well, but you get off on a technicality limitless Cooper.

Back a little bit because I think the most interesting thing for important thing for the audience to understand is that there was two and not two indictments, but there was a talk of a second So let's go back to what happened, how exactly he became charge? What was he charged war and then how was he able to get bill and what kind of money we talking about at first to explain that whole bale story and and what he was indicted for before we get into what happened inevitably led to his disappearance Ok, while so it's nineteen Blakeney eighteen, seventy two on and data comes out Anne Frank. You didn't even set up. Is it running? Ok, then the media continue on this.

Indiana July? Nineteen. Excuse me in December, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two, the authorities decided to moving on Frank. They had arrested some of his associates in Venezuela. There was a big there's, a big indictment of several corsican traffickers. Some of them believed to operate with Frank. As part of the remnants of the french connection arrested and that they have some information on Frank's got. The data could indeed be enough information. So he was arrested in LAS Vegas on his way to the Super bowl game. Remember the fame everything: Miami and watching the Redskins right, a galley premium, chaotic it's one of the Dutch. And my dad, I remember it because I'm a big man often says you were even though they sat now as a full body but

He was on the way to the soup and the rest of them, so they they slap. The judge slapped unheard of barn with five million dollars right- and he was unheard of- I mean God I'll- be like three thousand five hundred and thirty million on that So I put my plane by backing the earth and they wanted a big one, because there are rumours that the Frank was up US cycling, money off from his offer, Asian I've got a million dollars a month for like fifteen. That's where that fifteen or twenty million dollars contact comes from where they started bleeding left inflator. Fifty. We believe that he was putting the money away. And so the judge for before the judge and the judge cut the bond. He was cut you a couple million Sorry left LAS Vegas and then it came back in New York. It was like three hundred and twenty five thousand dollars, which was right

really reasonable and he got some of his friends value for the March summit. Boys from La Durham and that he put up the money while the bunker and he got out yeah. He from all that could be gathered from the law enforcement with running his operation while yeah what he was on behalf and it's kind of questionable whether it is a big question, whether he was really gonna jump on whether he was going. Going to trial. He thought he could beat it and there's a rumor about one of the judges of telling him that that they were going to go for a life sentence and some people believe that that made him say. Ok, I'm going to jump, jump jump on, but he did jump on in July. So

one thousand nine hundred and seventy two and there's a story about So11 detective, a guy named MIKE Bramble fishing into traffic. They found his car. There was blood inside they found on a wooden human blood. I'm going to you know all the details, but it's an amazing story. I mean one of the sources. The interview was IRS guy, He got wind that Frank was it at a bank in Durham after he had jump on in New York and was cleaning out a safety deposit box, and he got there by one minute before you know, and he saw cargo off. You know plus rank for sure I drove off and it so you know and disappeared and as there is a pine and taxes, we believe that the better was on that plane and we haven't even talked about another Maisie at second story chauvinist round. You know who's his girlfriend.

About what I have already had. Our way to charity still had a girlfriend and a very beautiful you described as how we bury like appearing and she's like so about seven or eight years, younger than frank, depending on who you talk too and she disappeared. At the same time and now most law enforcement, we talked to believe that she left with Frank, but some You say: there's no evidence that she left at Frank's, but it's kind of weird it right. I mean she disappeared and she's as mysterious as him, because there's never been a sighting, never been anything that showed up Kate, whether she's alive or dead. What she was especially most of her family. So they said that seems very idea. We tap perform for five years and digest this she's. Like twenty two, maybe twenty, maybe and

he's very loyal to her family and all of a sudden. Just you know so right and she, She gave him a good family politely. We understand them I'll expect. This word is more in the book, because Europe and others are do more research into the pro documented. But there will be there. There are believed to be teachers in Gotham. They retired moves south end up their various drop in all lustre, the daughter, random and, as far as we know that she never make contact with them, which is really strange. You know what even with which it says in the in your movie in your in the movie. Frank Matthews story is basically did someone almost gave him a break, it doesn't say necessarily the judge where he hello, hello. Well, are you guys doing? Ok, get your back. I wish I was here. I could hear you guys. I don't know what that yeah you you said earlier just for a bit, but that was a big cut out there. So

Ok, what we're talking about what I wanted to to explain, and maybe what we'll get you to do it now is Exactly in your research. It is. It has been established that someone actually said to Frank, listen to another indictments going to come down and you're going to get you could that could hold a life sentence and that's what prompted him to say. You know I'm going to disappear, so tell us a little bit about that. It was at the talk of another indictment where it could be life. Explain that to me please wow yet another example of francs luck, so he's out an banned for this initial case and he was going back and forth to court. He was apparently going to fight the case because at this time the penalties for federal drug violation these weren't quite so high and there was parole. Even if you get twenty or thirty years, you might do seven or eight years ten years and get out so he's going back and forth the court

a one day he's making is banned, appearance at court and he crosses passed with I'm not quite clear. He was either charge in the case or he was a federal prosecutor, in the area of again hearing about the guitar you're tolerate Dearie them he's now. A federal judge was a prosecutor at the time that conversation on the courthouse steps- hey how's it going blah blah blah Frank says: what's this I hear about another indictment going to come out and he says oh yeah, Frank, that's probably going to come down and Frank says! Well, I hear this one Carey's life. It was a eight hundred and forty eight, a continuing criminal enterprise, which was mandatory life in a real life sentence mean and you go to prison. If you don't get out in this ass, a cuter yeah now it's

so weird, I guess it was just a blunder mistaken his part, but why you're telling someone that thereabout they get invaded for something that there might even get out on bail for, and that was the day was gone again, while he thought about Re Gary and we we try to talk to a dairy, but he was sick at the time. But I did talk to him. I have won t and I listened to the table and he he you know. He said he never said that you know he never said that, and so that adds to the mystery of whether Matthews had a plan or not or whether the square of a moment thing, because you only get that eight. Therefore you weren't reminded do apply to the story. I sit. I write and

we'll probably interview rate Jerry for that and probably feeling that that's not gonna do it. For the book to as well so if you ever so many mysteries about the mystery of vague Matthews issues at the edges, amazing story, while the most compelling thing for me- and it is really drive me- you know really not with this- is that there is no way up persecuted would make a mistake like that, in my estimation, gather yeah. I think that, just based on your movie and again, you've done an excellent job of convincing me stabbing the guy's charisma. You have to be very there is much to do with this guy did in and when I talk and normal charisma, we're talking this yet again once you know very original guy now. The thing is when a prosecutor for it, the process, he's never going to admit it, but that prosecutor told them and someone must have- he must have known somehow again, charisma and power. He must have known that an indictment was coming down or the only other scenario that makes

he said that always la Cosa Nostra got him on that and that's how we disappeared. There's only two things there. I could see somebody you're saying that does not, of course, an austrian you. You think there is a possibility that they kill them. I say they know. I think that what would it would ass to what you have to serve conclude is: is that the prosecutor did I'm a favor. The prosecutor had enough respect for him or see if he, if he, if he if he said that, but you know fine- could have made this positions in himself because well we talked to Jerrod Yard Millard, and this is not in the documentary will come out in the book. You know he said that they had evidence that he was putting away a million dollars a month for about one thousand five hundred and fifteen to twenty months, and that's came. So that's the big question. We don't know if you know he had a plan,

and as you know, I I believe they could very well at a plan because Frank was always ahead of the law enforcement and one of the one of the DA guys explain yeah. Then we said he was always adamas. You know, because you so smart on that. So it's still up in the air and see you know, I documented just introduces Frank Matthews. The story of trying Matthews American Gangster on black entertainment had three seasons with all these secondary gangsters, but never had anything on Frank Matthews, which is amazing. You know on that. There's never been a documentary about him. The book is one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven, and so you know there's so much to the story and it's going to come out more and more and I'm hoping to bring it out. We do the book and then we're going to do the you know the part two come up here to meet with major six. That's why I'm here you know in the thing is, it did really just reads like a movie made it sir. Obviously it's it's a true story, but it is the movie and basically I doubt it

it's a great entertaining story and I get for guidance Barbie. I said, get a script which have completed on on the story frame Matthews and I have some people looking at it. I called king. No, I think it's great. It is logical progression, for this, too, is to take it all the way and let somebody let Hollywood do something That is well great story. I you could make a story up. I mean you, could you could you can pick it up? I mean you when weighty, butchered jumped flaring Now- and I can only five- I mean he was gone for sixty years. They knew that he was that he was alive. Lucy's combat washed in their atm machine in Europe, the picture of him there, but I mean Matthews, nothing, no one form of snow sightings of him at all the others. No rumours in a mafia mafia. Can't you the secret, like a bunch already,

no, no, no, no rumors! In there like it's Jimmy hot up. There is all kinds of words about him in the mafia and we know the mafia kill them. I mean we will find the body, but I mean you know I mean there's so many frames, there's no rumors anybody killed him. I mean nobody, can step forward and said: oh yeah, so, and so you know whacked him and put him in cement. You know in Yankee Stadium and you can find them there are, you know, he's living in now in the Bahamas. We hear that story. They were here he's in Africa. You know, which is completely opposite. We're here is in Venezuela, because that's where is his connections were an that's one thing that even here he's in Durham I one of the stories within a documentary that somebody told me that their doors remember. He came back three years ago, dressed as a woman to a funeral, no I bet you feel you laugh at it, but I'll be right here. Right now, essentially over you don't like it, you look good in a scared or not said that

you also big women. You can't the scout, you can't discard discouraged and soldiers is mystery. You know it's like God has associate right. In the music in the movie unusual suspects, alright gray, shadowy character- and you don't know it if it's real or imaginary, or what so there's a fascinating subject. From that perspective,. Here- is an evil in four for those turning to the interesting is the The incredible access you had to these really important DEA, guys FBI, Guys Anita variations very strongly the of between you and Adele, but You know really incredible access to a couple of these guys, friends and like you, it's amazing how many people will have nothing but dirt once somebody's dead, even if they they just gotta, give it or a war or the order I always the filmmaker wanted to, but is also

little dirt on this guy. It's it's interesting to see a gangster. This. Obviously this guy had something to do with murders. He had something to do with you know. Heroin is a devastating drug and so, but at the same time, just like very much like fix, oh characters in Hollywood, whereby we want a like this guy, very drowsy. We get out of resources, but also a lot of people wouldn't talk to it. Yours as because, especially in his home town, then look better access, I'm working on a book now because of the documentary and beside it was a fair documentary. I think what you either, because sugar right trying finds out in the in trouble, you know 'cause, he did have a reputation for violence or they're thinking that by not talking to you, they're protected him. You only on that on that sort of thing, and so

well, there's a lot of other people that poverty has information and that we are absolutely witchery your tracking him down and trying to get him to tell their their part of the Saint Matthew story. Right and he disappeared in nineteen, seventy two or so seventy three one thousand nine hundred and seventy three in July. He jumped he jumped bail, and so his anniversary would be next year. His birthday is February, 13th and he'd been old would be no he's sixty eight years old this year it was relatively relatively young. I mean whether he died of natural causes in since his disappearance. We talked to the Marshalls and they said summaries fingerprints for the showing up or have been some kind of evidence that he died. I don't know if that's

or not, but that's what they that's, what they told us. I went back to Durham and I've seen some of his homeboys. Some of the people who were in his organization and a lot of the marks are sick. You know they live very hard and fast lives. You know as junk string when they're, like Frank, was only twenty or twenty nine and there on walkers, now on respirators and they're, not doing too well, never say mages, Frank, so you under your frank, no thank you still alive and then, of course, the prosecutor in there. We Italian said there is a belief that he had a hardware, so your problem and then one of the amazing stories in there the marshals went out to use them. The guy rules that Frank had a heart, transplants and- and he had got to use that which has really get medical facilities there and they had to check it out. So they went out there and they checked everything and got there the word from one of his shop girl. I love it.

Then he went out there and they didn't find anything. And then, of course, there were well past security does not. Even if you ve ever had plastic surgery, the others surmise that dead. He fled he They have plastic surgery? Well, and you know, make sense, someone could have you get a few things done and you can, if you had a Who knows fortune or you know so, there's some things he could do even a facelift. So

things that could alter the way you look anyway, while they did do thank Bender forensic sculpture and I waited too long with him. He passed away cancer. I I missed my two months. He was actually going to do a sculpture fight like you get four America's was wanted. He did something uttering and died and we have a clip in there. You see where it what he would look like and my poor by using ought to be the earlier early sixties, but you know there's no guarantee that he looks like that today. You know about his features, features altered on that, but you know even now that they see I was involved, which is hard to believe the story. But, as you know, in the document we talk about where the prosecutor I was approached by the CIA,

toward the cut off the other venezuelan part of his indictment because of national security, and I was very, very strange agenda and there was a national security. Well that I was innovation. Lady the course begins. Your thou explains in the documentary. The Corsican had a very good shot. Your energies involving drug trafficking is beginning, but the Portuguese were involved. You know what this with the CIA and as part of the campaign against communism, you know, and as he able to recruit anybody Goody Ex Nazis in Lahti. Visa corsican traffickers I did have nazi backgrounds from World WAR two, so you know what happened I mean you could speculate. I think it's very fishy because you know he's going to flee the country. You might want to go where he knows people, so you might

Venezuela and yet to be really had a lot of money right. Eighteen, twenty nine dollars an hour, so maybe somebody you know set em up and down and because that yeah, how do you explain somebody disappearing like that after face of the earth and without even at the other end, then believe me? There is in one piece of evidence, were he's alive or dead, now, there's one disappear like that. It has to be somebody with a lot of power. You know I like this, you know CIA, or somebody that nobody knows how to do it. Well, like Albania, Corsican, Mafia right and that he is, he had disappeared, there's no, your judgment, sightings and fifty countries, but they did at the end, the marshals and the aid they had their task. Why someone after thanking the day is one of the biggest man until the history and there were sightings in like fifty countries, but nothing definite,

nothing that they could say like when they had that picture of what he Bulger in Europe you now here he is, you know, we've seen a picture of him. You know this is him he still alive. No what did you know? I mean you, don't really get any conclusion out of the DEA or the CIA or anyone authorities at all to exactly what happened, but why did? Why? Are they so convinced? Just because you know I know, and you know that the mob constantly talk because they get a my wiretap one way or another, but but the same time again, that's not. That doesn't mean that there's evidence that if they would have killed them, they would have talked about it. They could have done it with just a few people knowing that, if they have blabber in the organization Hidell is the CIA in the in and yourself. Even, why do you? absolutely think that it's not the mob that just disappeared them, because there's no reason for that

one I mean what he was gone. Why would we want to kill him? I mean how would be fine if the law enforcement couldn't find? having dinner hour. The milder fire you ve got. The other headache was gone. Never too, there's no rumors, I know I am people than all of some of the biggest mop years in prison and I asked them. Do you have any rumours really get his own rumours knowing bragging about it? You know I mean, and there was nothing I mean usually and Marty can't keep the secret services. Oh merchants stuff, you know, but it's not really really good, because it will reduce, keep out about people being whacked and all that sort of thing is absolutely no rumor Nobodys bragging about it, no ones explaining it or nothing. So as far as I'm concerned, that's the least likely scenario for what happened to Frank. The model had something to do with

and if I was on the line, I think you would agree with it. But what about his own families got these strong family ties and community in Durham? Ok, so maybe you can walk away, but he's got his kids so that than it is at what that's what the question, what he's alive or dead? I mean you know. If you look in the the documentary- and we thought you talk to the you. Listen to the tutor Frank was actually agree, good father. He bought this fair amount of money. I mean you know they bring a tutor in every day to help his key

kids and their well behaved, and you know he obviously loves his kids and all that and it was concerned about the welfare and then suddenly disappear and the Marshalls and talk to these offspring and interview them, and they concluded that there was no evidence that Frank ever ever ever contacted them and since, since Frank fled, it's been downhill for the for the kids. You know they had problems with the law. In fact, one of them is in jail right now, 'cause I'm researching this, and so if he was alive there, you would conclude that you know there would be some kind of connection. You know there would have been some kind of reaching out or stuff like that, but it

where's the marshals knowledge than an absolutely no connection at all. So it's like this. It's like the family as a shield in his brow was very odd. Is there any possibility that they were killed once they were? They were there secured somewhere like what does it make sense to maybe go over to the Venezuelan and somebody to cut their loss? Is there? Well, you get good very well, I mean you know. They know they got to Texas, there's a plane and all that and they figure that explains in the documentary. But what happened after that? You know where they went there soon after he left the country is an assumption, is not something that serve the factual having a bullet. Where did they go? I mean people. You talk to somebody law enforcement, and they all have an opinion that is not based on non fact. You know it's like a high ensure or speculation based on now you'll goddesses nor Frank, like the frank, like

as well as yet connections social media, maidens, whaler or the Bahamas would be a good place because the other friendly too You know money and all that sort of stuff, and you could probably hide in there and it's not warm weather. He went to Africa. You know that's another spectral, I don't think that's very true. He was even He was even said. You were going to Algeria, which is kind of weird, but that's where all the black revolutionaries- seventy remember they want their own labour asked about car Michael and I interviewed very twice for a book called six, radical, like tat, he was dead. I would call them up and ass. I said to you, you see this, this guy with a high pitch voice. Looking like

you own the place, while you were in Algeria there for a couple of years or how long you were that we were there, but he had passed away, not interesting. Now,. Exactly how you are you marketing this, where, if people are interested in this document, this film you talked about the instant download? Is that for a preview or for the entire holiday? That's the entire. It's a new technology, instant, digital download for seven hundred and ninety nine did you go out there and download it, and it's been very popular with a lot of that they could bite off our website if they want and will ship it out. Yet in probably about three days on that, and then you can get it from Amazon dot com, of course, and it's being distributed in outlets around the United States, but, like I said, the best places

to check our website, Frank Matthews, movie, dot, com and that were working on distribution deals for Europe and for North America, and hopefully we shall have no place in a a month or so I said they were married to a basic right. But we know it is only when a month and a half months since we released it and day is it'll. Take a while back that we feel that there is very interesting documentary taboo in response to the good you ve already got reviews on this really glad really positive, rave reviews on us as well. So right- and you know it's- it's not just against your story, it's a mystery story to you know it's like unsolved mysteries in a way you know whatever happens. Is this big time gangster? How could you disappear like that off the face of the earth? Isn't somebody said. Another documentary everything is food, yet

thing is to really would you guys talk about? You guys sounded like orgies or if somebody is listening. Oh man, this guy is going to be a dry documentary, but it's not at all, because the footage that you guys have is incredible. You got Nixon and you've got you know, it's amazing, that's what I love about a books that go back even fifteen or twenty five years, like you forget this history, you know wherever it is whatever criminal we're talking about now we're talking when a criminal organization and we're talking about a bunch of cities because using Falada, in the New York gathered around a lot, but each one of the community's at each these committees fool. You make you know Durham with its history lesson. Did you learn about a play? I swear at that time. Where body every black was disadvantage and white people were making three two one was making the wage of a black man. They still had this civic pride in this unique. Did he wear black people strived in became things in bright Matthews, at least

the lesson. The economic lessons there in Rome the prominence just in illicit business. Very interesting. Remember remember to all of this happen. You know up to his disappearance. He had just turned twenty at twenty nine you did not We can all this happen, so you wonder you know what could look at it happened. If, if you know you didn't, have disappear and didn't get on to him, because his stories just amazing in that short period of time of one's life right here, it was interesting now that the euro, again there, the heart, brought you had your hard drugs debt. Stating America, but now it's almost switch. It's completely from heroin. Now to amphetamine crystal meth and crack cocaine, but just a different, devastating drug taken over again,

the same kinds of players are there and, of course, is the minor flares in bigger players, but again just sort of not like it's legacy golden age or anything. But it's certainly a time where a Frank Matthews could have existed completely different. Now, no it's completely different, like you say, ten years before, one of the the former Associated Ready, Ready Jones said that he couldn't exist in today's environment because it changed so much. I remember Frank, operated just the time that Nixon was declaring. War on drugs is the first. It was the beginning of the war on drugs and this total failure that's happened, and so it's been going on for forty years and see how it evolves and Frank was also into cocaine smuggling, and he was before his time in that, because cocaine didn't really catch on until the late now

in seventy Uruguay became a really big. Job of choice is still limited value, entertainers and all that sort of thing but you're right. I mean they do a good job before people out of business and then there's somebody else to take to take his place because you're dealing with supply and demand and as long as you as long as you have a demand for a product, whether it's coffee, peanuts or heroin, someone's going to supply it, and it doesn't matter whether you have laws against it or not. There's still going to try to do it and that's with simple fact, and we saw you would have with prohibition was a total failure and I don't they. Anybody today would say we should have been vision back and that's we have now is drug prohibition is the same thing as alcohol prohibition. You know that was implemented in nineteen nineteen.

Yeah. I need create the same kinds of organizations and certainly there's been stories of over the years of guys that are nicer, but they're still in criminal organisations that kill people and spread a devastating drug throughout the world and in the console, This is these. People are very, very serious business men and everything that comes with that murder and mayhem. So they get spines criminality. Yeah, but in american culture is fascinated: America, Canadians people throughout the world there fascinated with these stories, because there are characters behind there. There's forces, like you say, there's forces behind this a lot of people when Frank Matthews time didn't have opportunities didn't end, so they took what was there, and so we have the same sort of so Economic conditions still around today, you know not not for an excuse or justify Obel.

Everything that contributes to these people is very good, fascinating story and amazing. Some of the things that happen, like you say with this year, how somebody can rise in prominence in control of most of the US in Heroin were or big chunk of it and amazing. Here. Thank you very much wrong, and I am ianal for coming on the program and talk about this that you're not. He said he can listen, but he couldn't you could listen. We couldn't talk evidently or something get. I think he got out about ten minutes ago, or so the light is not on here, so they got out. Maybe just listened with the area itself will postpone, not feasible right. I tell him how easily the yeah I will absolutely

and also tell US dollar audience a little bit about to you, your website and also dear you're quality, to crime problem and what the radio station. That's on and how they can go to that as well. Well, that's very timely because tomorrow night we're having the second part of a two part program on Frank Matthews: it's going to be the disappearance of trying Matthews the flight and disappearance and we're having some of the people that are in the documentary on the show the talk about that. So it should be very interesting. It'll, be just focusing on that and they'll be giving their opinions on whether you're alive or dead and talk about you know some things we talked about here, but some of the other things too so should be interesting and people can go to my website RON, chapstick ch!

Yes, are you Kate COM and also a publisher? I published two frameworks and that strategic media books that calm strategic media books that calm and they can go there and joining on Facebook. If you want out of it friends, there are great and for those listening, the woman talking with rancher Chicken and AL profit and will the Frank Matthew story, the rise and disappearance of America's biggest kingpin, Frank Matthews story. Thank you once again run in the best of luck and keep us updated on. What's going on with this like I know this is going to be a success and let us know of any new developments in the Frank Matthew story. Thank you so much for your support and having on the program we really enjoyed it. That's a great show. Thank you. You very much RON. I appreciate that and best of luck and I'll be tuning in tomorrow night for more on Frank, Matthews can't get enough. Thank you very much.

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