« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers


2012-11-07 | 🔗
Anthony J. LaRette Jr., had been on a ten-year-long path of violence, murder, and rape.Everyone knew Mickey, with her stellar grades and driving ambition, would eventually follow her older brother’s path and become the only other family member to graduate from university. Though separated by twelve years, Mickey and Dennis had always felt a common bond. On July 25, 1980, at 11:10 a.m., LaRette parked his car in a corner grocery store lot in the small town of St. Charles, Missouri, and followed Mickey into her apartment. When the savagery was over, he thought he had left the girl dead on the kitchen floor. But despite a gash across her throat that nearly decapitated her and two deep knife wounds to her heart, she somehow ran naked across the street to a neighbor’s house, where she died on their front porch. Her final desperate attempt to live provided a key to capturing her killer. For nine years, LaRette sat uncooperative on death row in Potosi, Missouri, until he was introduced to a young deputy, Patricia Juhl, from Florida. After that first meeting, the killer promised to cooperate on other murders and rapes in which he was implicated, but insisted on being interviewed by Juhl. So began a six-year odyssey as Juhl made numerous trips from Florida  to Missouri in order to interview LaRette. The investigation eventually led to LaRette’s confession to thirty murders and rapes in eleven states. The serial killer carried a portrait of Juhl into his holding cell and awaited his execution. THE GIRL THAT HAD NO ENEMIES AND THE MAN WHO HATED WOMEN-Dennis Fleming
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them, Anthony The house of journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life. Well, crafted welcome to the House of Roll Laret Junior had been on the tenth your long path of violence, murder and rape. Everyone knew Mickey with her stellar Raids and driving ambition would eventually follow, follow her older brothers path and become the only other family member to graduate from university, though separated by twelve years Mickey and Dennis had always felt a common bond on July.
By 25th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty at one thousand. One hundred and ten am Laurette parked his car in a corner grocery store lot in the small town, the St Charles MO and followed Mickey into her apartment. When the savagery was over, he thought he had left the girl dead on the kitchen floor, but despite a gash across her throat that nearly decapitated, her two deep knife wounds to her heart. She somehow ran naked across the street to a neighbor's house where she died on the front porch. Her final desperate attempt to live provided a key to capturing,
her killer and for nine years Laurette sat uncooperative on death row in the toes in Missouri until he was doing in introduced to a young deputy, Patricia Jewel. The book that we are going to be following this evening is the girl that had no enemies and the man who hated women with my special guest journalist and author Dennis Fleming, welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing to the center
Dennis Fleming Car, you welcome my pleasure well, thank you very much very interesting book curve and a little different perspective with this being a true cry, memoir, very, very interesting book, and so let's get right to this, tell us why you came to this in any way. To listen to the introduction might not know what was it did. What was the reason for this project? Why was this book project so important to you? Who is Mickey
to you, and why did you want to write this book? Well, I come from a rather large family and Nicky was the youngest of the eight children an arm. My background, my family is one of there were quite a bit of violence in my family to do that. My father's alcoholism and my parents continually fighting and a lot of my siblings next paramount- is- was alcohol and drugs, and I seem to be sort of an oddball in my family. I did some of that stuff too. I mean you know. We all do that were one thousand seven hundred and eighteen years old. But, as I grew older, my youngest sister now seem to have a bond that we were the ones that were going
go to college and we felt like we were kind of strange family. You know she right. They want and said: do you feel like you're adopted and I we had this bond? she was living at home with my mother and and my other younger sister was living there when Nikki smart advisors says serial killer from out of town and flew right and then we'll wrap a killed her. It was as if he killed my whole family. Is it right away the connection for from a for my family and I waited years and years and years and years and finally, I wrote the memoir about her death, her loss to the family, and I published it in two thousand and eight and after I publish
should I be contacted by a number of people who were family members of some of the victims, and it got me think think about the other murders that he had committed. Answer and how those came about how he confessed to them, and so I started the researching more into him as it as a killer. Who is he and now these other people that he had murdered, and I rewrote the book and brought it out this year with a different title and it deals with some of his psychological background and also the deputy you interviewed him over six year period and Ghana contrasted each other's thirty rapes and martyrs right. You
you had one heck of a story as it was already, but I think we're adding. This is just there's a couple other dimensions added to to. So, let's get to that that let's talk about your your sister, a little bit more more what she was again you from like outsiders within your own family and she was certainly a bright and an ambitious young girl, but tell us a little bit more about her in terms of what she had been doing in the last couple years. Previous to this eventful day, well. It sounds like a fairy tale story: orders that she's the youngest in this in this family, that's of pretty much of a dysfunctional family and about she was, you know, high grades, Aizen babies. She she played on the basketball team. She played on the softball team, he's athletic and very set clean, cut, didn't didn't smoke, cigarettes, didn't it
her last couple of years before she died when she was eighteen when she died, I think she had gone out with some girlfriends and you know how you doing high school or junior senior year. You go to parties and I'm not saying she was a faint, but she was compared to most of the people around my family. She was, she was sort of like a diamond, a call pile, and the great irony of this is that my mother had just moved Inter Alia, location, location, divorced divorce, my father, she moved into a very nice neighborhood and. Once in her life. She felt free from from my father, and the girls
in our sister who living there with my mother we're sort of in an idyllic situation, and and this you know this event just came out of the came out of nowhere. This guy had been traveling around and eleven different states and, and he just had to see her and doubtless it was July Friday, Friday afternoon, close to there in a very sunny nice clear day, beautiful day and he saw her and take her out and fall home and and did it and it's it's really shocked that this entire town, a little town saying
very nothing like that ever happened and it's it was a. It was a big deal. You know woke up that little town. No, I won't of all we will we'll spare. You know spare uses to go over the details of what exactly happened, but we we talked about is that he had slit her throat. Tell us, you know you didn't you if you make a point to basically it is because she made it out of the home into the neighbor's house that there was some help in capturing this killer, and so I tell us That's what that is unless it is giving too much away for the book. What was it about? What was it about that it gave police some iota of of direction in terms of who to look for well what what state you know! What they said was that
The way the word martyr it happened, she had left the apartment and purchased some items for one she was making at the store. There was just a block away and she had entered a come back into the house and and that's when he attacked her and he he left her for dead. She she got up and ran across the street, knocked on the front door of the neighbor's house and and fell down, and that's where she died really on on. I walk but the full you know, so the fleas were called immediately. There was a a receipt for the grocery she purchase and she could see if it really gave them almost tell me the exact time that she purchased items at TAT, they could figure out how to took a few minutes to walked back to the apartment and and then by the time they got a phone call. You know it's there very very shortly
window they were able to put a bullet in out the exact place at almost the exact time, and now it is caught a number of people like us as a small town, and is it caught a number of people's attention tension that one moment in particular new that she was precise. The the time that that she was in the parking lot and and saw a man run out of the house and and jumped into a car that had a bad muffler numbers, a convertible that was easy to identify a vehicle that then, and the woman became a key witness and put the put the police onto on very quickly. I guess it had she laid there. She died in the house, no one
have been home. My mother in law and her sister were both at work. No one would have been home for a number of hours and then I'll all would've been quiet in the little town, and I I I I think it was this sort of the proximity of the event happening and the police being notified call going out and everything happening quickly, that they were able to get the little town excited and then follow. Buzz and couple people came forward
Right now, so so, how does the this is the police tighten their their scope on on this Laurette in, in so tell us proceed as as the police do and and up to the capture of the serial killer. Well, he had come into town and he'd never been before, and he had run into someone who he is been in the jail with for Ray earlier and he was spending the spending a few days with the with the cell on the part of his car and the he he killed my sister and the drawback home and had lunch with his friend who was off work and offered to take the the the the other guy's car form.
And the seller thought? That was something odd about that and this guy being in? I think he has to be careful with he's hanging around with another ex con. I was what kind Let me get into for all violations, whatever I don't know, but he thought that was kind of odd and he heard the stories about the you know: the the murder and the description of the car, the you know, I you realize it was his car and about red, had already formed. I think the of someplace a place against car painted and there will I heard the description and you know I didn't get I didn't get the car painted, but he got his friend to drive him the candles to get him out of the state and
the fellow at the car shop, call the police and said I think, there's something funny going on here: car that fit that description. Guy was trying to get painted and and the fellow who Lorette was staying with contacted the police of the police contact it's him as a result of talking to the people as a patch shop. I dont remember all of that very clearly, I'm not that's that. That might be the kind of it you know. The detail of the of the murderer is a kind of thing that I think a lot of two crime books go into, and I didn't go to it. That deeply, because that's not what I was writing at the time. I was writing more about the general events. The this of who she was and how it affected my family and the so absolutely
good morning I'm wired and in fact, but my agent got me a contract to to rewrite this, as the is is sort of a a more of a standard, true crime book, and I couldn't do it because I was too close to it, and I couldn't write is in that in that format you know what to a true crime book. We took reader is used to picking up a certain type of book and a certain kind of narrative and a lot of it is about the police hunt at the moment by moment part of that. There's some of that in my book, because I cooperated with the major case squad the FBI and everything. But it's just from Whole point of view of it is, from my perspective, what they were asking me and but they were sending me off to do and things like that yeah, I don't know. Certainly we I just want to set up this up so that the audience understands what
of monster that we're dealing with here, we really really legacy introduces This is a memoir, so so really really at talk. About how this affected you and that what that affect turned into what obviously obviously turned into this fine book work. But what else transpired were? How did it transform your family? Really that's what's more important and I got to say that Maybe publishers think that there's a there's a traditional or a typical, true crime book, but I will tell you that the true crime audience reads about wrongfully convicted in memoirs and all kinds of things, and-
sir. Now in this programme we have had a variety of true grand books. It don't fit the norm at all. I know it. I know what the typical book is, but I think publishers or think that that's what people want to digest the same book over and over and over again, but I don't think so, but I getting back to this, so the police have him the day. The captured him thanks to an in depth party, your sister sister when the police contact you. And what is your I mean you express this in the book. What is your reaction?
your family's reaction. How do you get the news I'm? I was watching. It was a ten days about ten days after the the killing and the of the the families just devastated will work. I was living in Saint Louis, which is about thirty miles from St Charles, since it was a bigger city, and but you can be next in Saint Louis, every night, on the six o'clock ten o'clock news in August on the local stations are covering this every night. They they flashed her picture out. The so or watching the news in the one thousand o'clock at night and the new starts, and I get a phone call from one of these two detectives who who were put on the case and who tracked it tracked him down, and I got I got the phone call and I said you know we found him Ann
We know it's him, there's no doubt he's already signed a confession, and so you know all this. This is the guy. They tell me who it was and he was from, I think, the campus and, of course, it's hard to describe. You know people say it's like a big weight off his shoulder and all that. Well, it is all of that and I and I broke down and cried. I thank the guys you know for, for your job. Until my wife and I and then I said all the news is just started- the local stations. I got the phone book out myself, calling the local. Stations and telling them because it all that covering it in they? They got it on. You know of the ten o clock news, a cop I want you to do, that is to say an update, anything in and said that enough data data capture killer.
Of so many of her friends in that we could have found out about I am sure, but like a pardon sorry, I I'm not clear why you contacted the police or the media part me well Well, I was there I I know that I know the police will probably going to contact them, but I would I was sitting there after I hung up the phone and the news and the one thousand o'clock NEWS has just begun and I thought now am I going gonna sit here on the phone and call each of my family members, everybody. I call I'm going to have to either say: look they just got the killer, blah blah and hang up or I'll get a conversation that will take a long time and then I'll to call another another. I have seven six other siblings and I thought if I can call the tv stations and let them know,
and, of course, I'm sure they probably heard it from me, and then they had to call somebody and follow up if they hadn't gotten the call, but I thought that was just the fastest way to get the news out to everybody, because she she was very popular in high school, and it'd been in the news is so many people you know, knew about this girl who no with the murdered in Saint Charles and the I thought this will be the fastest way to together to get it out of. You know took me about to call the stations it took me about five, five or six minutes to call the local stations, and that that I started calling. You know my my my my immediate family and I just thought it was a good way to get it out when you initially were given the news of your sister being murdered. How did you get that news.
I was at work, it was a it was about thirty on a Friday afternoon and I was at work and microbiologists and one of the things I had to do go out into the I worked at a to fragrance toiletry, perfume factory. And we make it hand lotions and things like that and shampoos. And I was in quality control. One of my jobs is to go out into the plant and the get samples and and the Markham and bring them into the laboratory. So we could take and I heard heard my name on the page. And I grabbed the phone out in the plant and I heard a voice on the end of the phone I couldn't tell who it was,
when I realized mother was mother. I realized it was my mother. It sounded. She was a bad connection and This is one thousand nine hundred and eighty before cell phone. So a lot of times you get a Actually, if you, if you make a call to your back, then it gets fuzzy connection and that side and I kissing speak up Masahiko, but what she was doing was just trying to tell me that you know her daughter. My sister had been murdered and She was mustering as much I guess energy she could do to muster. To tell me it was really forgot that that then I finally realized it was her in what she was telling it took me. It took me out, a long time for it to sink in I kept again. She was telling me that that Mickey
in a car wreck and she at the hospital or I kept saying she she's not dead. What what is it my mom, had a way of blowing things out of proportion. Sometimes you know- and I thought about this- this can't be what's really what she's really talking about you know and then that she's, she told me she had been murdered and I still, I just couldn't believe it so I was going out of trying to accept that as it's, it's a hard thing to accept. Is there something about your your? Your psychology? Doesn't let it come through to you, you know yeah, I guess there were we have mechanisms built in. It's probably the same way: the parents when they hear that their has been killed or something must be the same thing. It's a disbelief. It it takes while to get through, get through, makes
dark and how long roughly was it between that period? And when you called the media to announce that hey they've got someone got someone days candidates, is seven ten and it was a funeral in between that the time yeah, yeah and. What was the funeral like in terms of the media and the public? I know works. You know I've been a funerals family funerals, but what was the media attention and and the public's response to this? Well, there you there were there were there were always police are around everywhere and
I asked one one for Nasco: one of the. I don't know if you do not have one point I can't couldn't tell if I was talking at the person or or local detective in let's say, once a noon by sight, even if it has a very old we took her out to the cemetery. There were put that most. You know I didn't see a lot of funerals too, but this this was tainted by the fact that the police around in areas it's almost like you know when the president comes someone your secret service people around season. Thirty, there cops around and- and I have in the one fellow said- well sometimes the these guys are hiding in there watching and it's part of what they do. You know it's part of the ritual and so I had a sense that the guy could be looking at me right now
another another really odd aspect of it was that No one, none of her friends from high school. She was popular and she had dated a number of guys that were eighteen. Eighteen years old, who would come, up to me and and and sobbing, and you know,. Trying to say how much they loved and everything mostly. I had to detach from that because in in the back my my I'm thinking this, this have been the guy. That did it because we had no idea who did this It never occurred to any of us that someone from out of town could have just come and randomly picked her out and been done this to our and then left town. You know it, never. It never flashed into my mind that something like that it was it was always on.
Could this be the Ex boyfriend who wrote her name on the tower and was in love with her. She rejected our. Could this be this guy that she dated the night before our son. He took her out and maybe you know he tried to make a pass at her and she didn't want to go all the way and he freaked out, I mean all kinds of so I couldn't be a really it's it's. It's It's a very odd experience to have people comforting you throwing their. Arms around you and trying to comfort you and you feel, like you can't accept it. That's the that's one of the and to watch these. I kids in high school on you know coming up, and to the into the funeral power for she was laid out- and you know most, like I said I think said in the book most of these divorce- that
what happened to them is maybe our parents divorced I knew someone who got killed in a car right this this murder. You know this the way it was described in the news papers and, and all you know they all knew how she died. It was a you know. She was stabbed multiple times in the heart and throat slit, which was this guy's am all his his his signature was said. I think of.
Of all the women he murdered. He slit their throat from ear to ear. It was the thing he did in the puncture the hardy made. She went to make sure you know there. There were that right, so it's it did did give use you describe in the book. It didn't give you very much comfort to have this guy arrested, but you'll take a little bit of solace. I guess at that time yeah it was. It was great to know that they caught the guy. Then I could that I could go to all these kids are know. Kids, who would talk to me, are people adults even who were under who are suspects, and I knew that wasn't them specially, because this guy had confessed. It was a great relief from that perspective and to know that he was off the street. You know, then, if you could do that to her, you could do
to someone else. We didn't know that he had done that to to almost thirty other women, but you know it doesn't take away the fact that the loved ones gone and nothing's going to bring that back. But but it was it was. It was nice to be able to especially the the one fellow who dated her for the first time. I took her out with the first date and he took her out that night and took her home and- and and then that happened, of course, the police grabbed him and of all things this guy he's a nice guy. I know I'm even now, a heck of a guy, do anything for you, but he likes to collect weapons and I mean thought it was so crazy that the police go to talk to this guy and then they take him to. The and he has knives and all kinds of.
Like medieval weapons. You know the balls with the spikes hanging hanging on his wall in his in his living room. All kinds of knives- and you know I would find it hard not to think. Well, we got this. We got this solved right here. You know yeah, but it but the part of the thing. For me it was nice to be able to go up to John and say John. You know yeah. I'm glad that it's not you you're a nice guy yeah, because it is it. It was impressed upon me quite a bit that he did approach you at the funeral and- and you just like- you had already explained that you just couldn't couldn't embrace this guy so,
You, you had this opportunity later, the poor guy yeah, the cook, the questioning with all those weapons on the walls a most of an interesting for sure. Now. What is your contact with the police? In terms of you know, I know, police will often keep you abreast of what's going on, but the two what is and what to what extent did they do that regarding that Loretta and then his other, crimes or what was happening and proceeding with the travellers at work well weakened, CALL now and then some members of my family did but I mean he was he was arrested. There was a pre trial
the trial. A year later- and you know I was even convicted of capital murdering and given the death and up during that they're, not one year period, that, aside from notifying, a that there's a pre trial, do we want to attend that and then, when the trial is it that there wasn't much communication between at least me and the police? And I don't think. Many of my other family members talk with them and then once he was convicted and put in jail. We we just forgot about it. Really try to put it out of our mind. I I am. I would want A couple of my brothers would contact the the sage police polices, the two detectives that is originally worked on. It
it just it just to see what was going on, and you know I would get word from a family member all he he. He made an appeal, and you know that's not what are you going to happen? Then?. Gary out and I and I knew if they were ever going to actually executed on that? That would that would be a big deal, because they were not executing people in Missouri, And I think I think something came up in the news about, some of his other murders, had been solved and a few of them were in the St Louis area and that that brought it to my attention and I started watching more closely and one one idea, I can't remember- I made a call, or if I heard on the news that they were they were going to set an execution date.
So I knew I had to contact them and the authorities and tell them that if some someone from the family could be a witness, I wanted to be a witness at the execution. Oh, you did yeah and they sent me some forms abounded. Not. Why not I feel like the paperwork, and I was allowed to do that. Why did you want to be a witness? Did you have any qualms whatsoever how how strong a decision was this for? how sure, where you of it well one of the things like it you they had a special connection with her and it sounds kind of morbid, but that when he was killing her. I know that I know she was probably at some point. I think a person is going to be out and they're going to be saying, help and they may even be to yelled irrationally for people who may not even be around. You know how
Baby might yell for mommy when mom is nowhere in sight, but I thought you know Mickey had me and four other brothers and I hate. I wondered if during the struggle, as he ever called out for me, if she ever yelled out for me to help her and I even wrote to the guy and with a Anthony Lorette and was in the penitentiary. I wrote him a couple letters and I asked him that I said that's all I'd like to know is: is she If you remember her calling out my name Dennis, do you do remember that and it sounds kind of morbid, even when I talk about it, but it just I just wanted. And the last moments of her life? If I was Our mind, you know and at some point, I realized that. That's not something that you could know one really
kind of crazy to think about that, but- and he was the last person to be really with her alive and in here talking, and so so I felt like when he died. I needed, be there when he died. Wasn't there when when she died, but I had to be there when he died really didn't have a desire to you know. I don't want to go and I want to watch this son of a bitch die You know I want to go there and I initially, when it happened, yeah I would have killed him with my bare hands. In fact, I wanted to do that, but fifteen years later, when they executed him. I just wanted to be there because he was the last one to be with her when she
I was going to be there when he died in a way I was. I was representing her that's about as best as I can explain it. Yes, now in terms of the rest of your family, say your mother, what was the effect of Mickey? on your mother. I, my mother, I knew my mother was not in the best of health and she had some heart problems and she's can never exercised or anything, and I knew the shock of it was. It was just. I could tell that it changed. And I remember saying my one of my siblings. I said this is going to kill mom she's, not going, she's like to last five years, she's gonna die. This is going to kill, hurts too much,
I was the youngest daughter and all that and she Mom died about. She died four years later and I could just I could tell it changed her. I think it's a terrible thing for a parent a child, any parent, the thing about something like a a purposeful You know murder like this, for no reason at all this guy didn't even our and at what like he didn't know where he was driving a car and he swerved and killed her. He didn't know her, but he saw her and he picked her out and then he purposely killed her. He was, he was the kind of guy that killed and raped. He sometimes
of his victims were raped after the police. I don't know how they determine this, but some of the victims were raped after after they were killed is yeah. And I just I don't know that worked on my head of all a lot and I I think it's his mom is just kind of I could just tell she was not. She just didn't last the same way and more you. It really took a lot out of her. So. You know, I can't say it sure did make the rest of her life. Sure. What I was going to ask you is is the very interesting the letters that you grow too to Anthony the right here you say
wanted to find out what if she did call on the name- and I I just got to say I would imagine it's the it's the people that you love the most of that those machine. You would certainly have enough time for those people's faces to flash into your mind. What do you call that your name specifically, you know so I, but I think that it's interesting that you wrote him and then he responded. What's interesting is what you wrote in the book. What you really thought he would he really felt about this, but so tell us a little bit about the contents and then please do what you wrote in the book, because I think it's interesting, that the difference between the two- oh you mean when I terms of our conversation on how we felt really about you know this is somebody says, are: are you remorseful and and their their killers of wood, St Court yeah? I I'm I'm sorry but
really Mars or behind closed. You know so well, he was out of. I guess what I wrote. The book was that I he is a something in court. You know and every every time this is this. Guy was always he always made. It seem like it was not his fault and I found it out when I when I, when I looked at the rest of the murders, it was always that whatever he would talk about a a murder and I'm I'm, I'm really glad that he fast all these other murders, because is people could find out what happened to you know what actually did happen to there loved one I only went through ten days of not knowing there were people that went through ten years. You know I'm not but his. He would always say that he'd
gone to the house and he just wanted to rob the woman our steal something from the house, and They would panic and then they would cause an altercation and he would have to. Tell them? It was always he would he he made himself the victim in a way and I am I wrote something in the book about what went through my mind, I think I I don't remember if I was sitting at the trial or if I was thinking about this, there was a as I was writing the book, but I I I think that he, you have to be filled with so much hate to do something hello like what he does is I I I can't read a quote from a book. If I had the page as I'd read,
But it's pretty nasty, I guess I'll see. I would like you what he would really like to say. As you know, I I I went in to kill the bitch and you know what I mean it be more. I don't know if I could actually say the words that said that I wrote the book on your radio shall because it sir it's pretty now you know he wanted to know she started to scream, so I smacked or some more and she wouldn't shut up sites, let us vote and that you know, and I had to hurry up to their pants off before she died, because you know I wanted to. I wanted to screw her while she still moving. You know that kind of stuff yeah I see so I just felt that that the there has to be that kind of ugly hate it. I hate for women in in in this man. Somehow you know how that I don't know, but no, no, you! You know you're bang on because I won't go into it too much, but I
we interviewed a serial killer for the book that I had and the person was more than candid with me about how he felt and- is along those lines So your your meditation is not yeah. It's because you have to think I mean the I that's what I say. I you see these lust killers in court and then they they asked him a question whether he was you know. He says, he's sorry I mean You're, not sorry, that's not a show of remorse, because nobody is even capable of what these people do on normal. You know. The vast majority of the human species is not capable of such a thing. So you're right this kind of anger is that you have, they have to hate one way or another doesn't matter. Why does and how they got there, what they have to hate and they have a good cry.
Amount amount, energy to kill, kill thirty women, thirty women raped and killed. This is this is a very, very hateful man, so you're not far off at all, no, not at all now even included quite a bit of the back, and of Anthony Laurette as well, and I dont have we done all I've done. A lot of programmes in the is the baby or the gamut of cases are that the serial killer Sometimes I have head injuries and then the author that it covers the case thanks jeez they didn't deserve the death penalty because of these mitigating circumstances, the head injury. Now with this Anthony Laurette he has, is diagnosed early on by a neurosurgeon, with frontal Lobel epilepsy
and some sort of a very pretty I don't know nasty, but a bad childhood as a result of some of this stuff. So without going too far into it, tell us of what he was doing I've noticed with an what was Anthony to Lorette, like in terms of his assessment from psychiatrist and psychologist from an early age. Well, I think this is. This is something that I gained in in in re writing the book. I I I didn't. I didn't realize that you know that he had had those issues he had. He had some.
He is the head when he was a kid. I think you started off pretty much with a low iq to begin with. He was having trouble in school and you got it the head of the US and the lexical shocks at one point he started having epileptic seizures and like like you'd mentioned, it senses diagnose a temple of epilepsy. And he was in, and out of you know the doctor losses in that and then institutions he was? He was institutionalized. I single is about thirteen, and so he was close to fifteen sent out of state. You know and brought back and and then the the he'd given to some type of trouble. He'd he'd have some kinds of problems in the be seeing a doctor again and back in for and back and forth- and I saw this when I look at it over the span of his lifetime- what I see
as a fellow who is, is who's being seen by the medical profession and and and recognized that the there's something wrong here and they are, they keep treating them, and I don't know if it's, because they put him back with his parents who weren't watching him very closely or what. But you know he was that he didn't altercations with peacefully break somebody's army to in public. It is doing all these crazy things and eventually he started doing things that would give importance to jail for awhile
and the other was the first really bad, one being eyes convicted of rape and still, even while he was in jail, he was being seen by doctors and they were talking about. I have as these dangers and and and he's he acts out in violence, ways toward women and everything and Anna I did to me. It seems like. I could get really angry and say you know, if, for mental health profession was a little blood one of the ball. This guy would wouldn't have been out on the streets. So much it seems like it got to a point where he would he would. If he wasn't in a mental institution, he was in jail and then he was just he would get jail sentence.
Is that we're now I think he got one jails ends for ten years and he was out on the streets and less than a year, and things like that- and it just makes me- makes me think that It makes me wonder how well our mental health care institutions for criminal criminals, how well how effective they are. And also I'm I'm a firm believer that if you get this, if you commit a crime that serious enough to get you ten years, that the judge is going to give you a ten year sentence, I don't I don't see this getting out in the year stuff. You know I. I really think people senses should mean something you know and well, we you know, the thing is we were talking about, is for serious crime is twenty two: he rapes and murders a person, the senseless and rape and murder he is. This is where he is diagnosed with this Temple, lobe, epilepsy and the smiling rotten cat,
virgenes wet. You know he's grandma seizures like you, you you mentioned, but they have all this passive aggressive personality disorder with social and sexual deviant features. So: that's what they knew they they had. They had a fair amount of information from the past, from military from there right right and yet so I can't say you're going to not that I wouldn't love to blame so psychiatrist for all of society's illness. But no it's it's can see five twenty. He could have done. Twenty didn't do twenty, so it was back out on the street and using the first guy that goes on and does a stint in prison and it goes on to continue in his murderous way. So I would say that this is this. Is a person that's been you know, like you mentioned, he was breaking people's arms when he was a kid
right posing himself. So we had all of these things that that he was finally properly diagnosed with a twenty two. So he he had organic brain injury and he had psychiatric and psychological problems. And so you know that at a young age, so it's a sort of recipe. I don't know what you wish. You can say, but it's interesting story. By dint of it there's a there are people who would say that this this person, maybe not totally responsible for what he did. But you did quite a bit of research on this person's attitude. What was he like a trial and in all
overall in response to all these rapes and murders. What was his overall attitude? Well, like I said he. He saw himself as the victim Ann. He his attitude, I think Tord at least at the trial until he was convicted until he got the the death penalty. He was kind of smug well, but when the Jerry came back with the death penalty, that's the first time he put his head down and uh. I think he
he wept, but until then he was you know, sort of indignant. I guess at the pre trial thanks a year after murder, my sister, I confronted him and- and I I said you know you- you murder my baby sister and I expected. I don't know what I expected him to say that I expected him to say something and he's right kind of smirked as if I just ask them you know I just mentioned it was you we were having a nice day, you just don't remember if he said so. What are you just it like? It was no big deal and I thought to myself: how can you, how can Respond to somebody whose sister you just murdered that
way, while I realize it, but he had murdered plenty of of women, and now you know they are one of the detectives. I thought you said it that he created fantasies about. And uh a lot of times. You know, I guess, if you, if you talk to, if I was talking to him about murdered sister, she said something about it. If he could stay in his fantasy that he is the victim, is it. That he can live with it like when I, when I wrote to him and wanted to talk to him, wanted to ask him if she crawled call out my call out my name, someone from the the penitentiary wrote who had been interviewing him said he won't acknowledge your letter, because that then you would have to consider your sister
a human being, and that- and that would break, is fantasy and and so he's not going to bother with that. What what response did you get from him overall yeah you need to, directly to me. Yes, he didn't responded, all the letters. No, he in response to the letters he he was, that
given the letters and I guess he handed them back to the the the people at the at the penitentiary in and they they contacted me both times. I have tried many of the letters they contacted me and said he won't talk to you about it. Do you think he read them? I don't know, no one is really in the business now you talk about to detective, Patricia Jewel. How is it that she comes to question him? What's the turn of events and that's where they got the it in the in the inevitable compassion of all these rapes and murders? But why did the he speaks to her? How did she come to speak to read about other murders, already started out in Florida and analyses county. I think it is and when he was younger and then his family,
move to think it can as well. I think he he went back down there a few times and there was there were some There was some connection with they were. They were investigating some type of murder in Florida and were right was being held in in Missouri.
And one of the top one of the cops at the at the penitentiary had heard about the the the murder in Florida and the people they are. The murder in Florida somehow was connected to a to a to either the people from Missouri our people that they're committed that murder in Florida committed I'm murder in this area. I I I can't remember now, but the military officials were contacted and. They went to Florida as part of the investigation and they met this. The deputy jewel Patricia Jewel and she helped them out.
While they were down there and somehow information that she helped them gather help solve a crime in Missouri, and so once that's what's that happened they had. They had suspicious suspicions that that will read and may have committed some crimes in Florida that have travel back like a steady, travelled, eleven different stage, and I think a couple times you went back to his own state. And he committed a few matters and in Florida and. The jailer or I can't I don't know the term but the car warden, the or somebody who is in contact with Lorette, while I was sitting in jail in Missouri, said, look there's
woman down in Florida that help us solve this case, and you know she was mentioning this, this case sound flawed. Florida had to do with this young girl, something something but you know anything about that. Would you and he said, Sultan like? Don't you? I might have some information on it in the end, the war to work. You think you might want to help This young girl out- and he considered talking to her and he talked to her and gave her some information that helped her solve the case and and then said that he'd like to talk to her her about from other cases they had been trying to get right to talk about the they they they were suspicious that he had committed many crimes. But they they could. They could never get him to to get in thing out of a man, any kind of interviews he just climbed up, but he decided that this is this.
Woman from Florida. After he had matter. He talk and only her, so she began making trips from Florida to Missouri the interview him and he He started. You know revealing all this stuff to her. She tracked it down and solve a lot of these cases. Yeah she spent six years doing it, She's never done anything like that before. And when it was over and he was executed she ever she, she I gotta best job. She said I I didn't want it. I didn't want to go through that again It's sort of like got hooked it in a way and felt obligated and felt like well as if I'm the person that he's going to open up
well. Then then, I'm gonna have to do. This is if we, if we can find out you know about this, so she she became that the messenger and actually yeah, so so that the police in had an inkling that he had been active, maybe in their state or in. In other murders, beyond your sister, but this woman put it all together with this sort of what other for it other than the relationship that she develops and cultivated with this killer and then finally confessed to thirty rapes and savage murders. Home cooking credible, credible her a friend yeah, but she said he certainly wasn't my friend, but she had the sort of ours put on. You know put on channel the thing that the thing that did the
I think it's kind of interesting. I thought about this. He was a serial killer and once he committed to the crime and was convicted and put in jail, I mean he was contacted by authors. He was contacted by people from universities who wanted to study him and this, and that and everybody who met him knew he was a serial killer. So you know anybody got a chance to talk to my new that I'm gonna talk to a serial killer. If you would have a particular attitude about yourself, talking to. I would I know I would I would be on guard I with the odd, but he said
he he opened up to her was when she first was when she was first introduced to him. She just treated him like a person. She she didn't. He didn't sense that she was judging him or something. There was something about The fact that she was just I don't know if she was emotionless or what, but he didn't get any sense that you know yeah she's looking at me and she knows I am a monster and I'm sure she hates me you know I'm all at it. There was something there and that's that's what the nurse will out in the open up your so she had to kind of play on that. I guess she had. She had the somebody in the department said that he thought she was Laurette thought he will. She was his girlfriend or something and- and I
I I mentioned that the Patricia she said. Oh no, no way he thought it was. You know he thought I was his girlfriend no way, but it was kind of interesting that when he went to his execution you don't He drew a picture of her and hung it on the wall and is waiting so he's holding. So I think you do. I think he did think he had at least, if not a girlfriend, at least a friend. He felt something quarter, but she didn't like that well the thing is she's trained and is trained to treat this person like decent human being, regardless of the revulsion at.
Who we was and what he had done now, a normal person wouldn't be able to contain themselves professional. Does you then, when he thinks oh jeez? I can you know, and obviously these people are trained to deal with these narcissistic personalities asked them about themselves, like you really give a damn, but really you have a disdain for them. So I, but I still think it's a masterful job, because Hardly anybody can do that and elicit that kind of confession out of anyone, so she did a master job, but I can understand why she might want to have a desk job after that. That's the kind of experience you would do once and never want to do again, Sure, well, you hear all that all and horror, and then you know I don't know the house.
If she was involved in contacting the families are not that I mean just to just to go through. One of them to go through. One out of one case is: is that enough and the effect it has on on people, but go through get get that one done, and then then you know now we're gonna start on that one. If this is a, I don't know how she did. I think I think the woman is a real hero Absolutely and as what I said to homicide homicide, I said I'd, I say now: it's it's the toughest job that no one wants. You know you imagine, murder scenes crime scenes. I don't know how you get that out of your head, I don't know how you go on and have a normal day or normal week, and these people, some of these dedicated guys, have done it for years and years and years. It's incredible. Really. You. Someone has to do this job and there are only a few that cannon
and now you have their art select tales like this, where a person goes in and and rolls up their sleeves and gets the confession out of people, and really we only get a taste of that in fictional television and movies. You know so it's incredible. This story story that you've you written Dennis. It's been how long since Mickey's death- and I know that, do you have some people in your corner that helped you get through this. Obviously you get the birth of a daughter, Megan and and your wife, if I'm not correct, Charlene, tell us about how you really, I don't know how you got through it, but how you manage to pick yourself up enough to be where you are today and and have this book
I'm out and the overall affect? What's who's behind you and and where are you today and and and tell us a little bit about that? Well for the for for decades, I I need just some. It became a part of my life every every day. Every day every single day I thought of my sister everyday and you know. Time goes by, and time goes by and I ended up in therapy over over. It was. I thought it was over something else, but it was over that it was over that and hour and that's what I got into the creative side of myself. I got into making films and things things like that.
And eventually I I just felt like I had to do something through artistically, at least maybe too, to deal with it and in until about the book book people on I top people I was writing a book. People would say. Well, you know, even if nothing happens with the book, ITALY, for you to do that, and I say yeah yeah the good for me and I thought yeah, it's it's it's it's not so great. For me, it's it's sort of. I wrote the book to in a way to to have something so that if somebody somebody may have managed to read it and they read about what a good kids she was that that somehow my sister lives on in and I want to do a good job of it, but to fully one I get got to the end of the book. I felt like a lot along with it.
This has happened in the bed in the end of the decade since her death. It made me think that we don't you die that there's an after life, because I got signs of that deadline. I knew were off from her, however, It is not happening and I figured it gets it finished with the book. I thought well, I've. Never I've never really talked to her. If I believe that she, in some way is still existing people. The people go on after they die somehow, then maybe she can. Hear me, and so I wrote a letter to her and that that's the last part of the book and when I wrote that letter, that's really what sort of ended the crisis part of that. For me. I wrote that letter and it if there's any kind of closure of any sort. That's that's what did it?
I know I felt compelled I thought well, if she can hear me, then maybe weekend too. So I wrote a letter to him also and in the letter. I basically- I told him. I really couldn't forgive him for what he did, but but can think of him as a child as a young child and, if I think as a young child. I can. I can love that young child and I can give him that I can. I can. I can forgive the child, but I can't forgive adult this- can take somebody bigger than me to do that, and when did this version, you mean that the girl that had no enemies, which was basically the memoir and then this is the newer, the new version
with the addition of Loretz crimes and the entire story, which, when did this, come out an when the d original the original came out in two thousand and eight and I had you know I try to get different. I got an agent, that's up the thought they could handle it and get to get the book a book deal for me and they could and I finally, I said well in this field- publish it myself and I did, and then that got me another agent and and he he said you know what there's there's there's more to the story. He sort of put me on the idea that what about the? What about the kill himself and the other way in this woman. You know you never, so he he
sort of gave me the idea to write a second book, but it's kind of funny. The first book called she had no enemies you you can still buy that the Kindle version that still uh for sale- and I have that for sale for zero dollars and ninety nine cents. I just thought at that. I would sell the Kindle version really cheap and that would be advertising for the book. Well, as it is now the Kindle version is still available, but the but the focus on her and put the Kindle version is selling like crazy, and that is the new one is, selling, but not like the like the older one, the older first, the first version is selling. This is really selling well. Yeah, like I say it's hard to the. I don't think publishers know what's going on anymore. You know I mean it's. It's just you've touched people with the book and I think that's why it's snowing. So now that is a fine book as well. I mean the you you have you. Do you separate the two
Voices, so it is a again we follow along. It's like a trajectory of both lives. Basically, same time very, very interesting, want of egg it this is there any special or any place you'd like people to go to purchase this guy? No, it's on Amazon, probably Barnes and noble through order, but is there any any place specific? Did you like people to go to order this box a website or something like that? That's the the the that's the place to get it, get it get it through Amazon or Barnes and noble. You can get the if you get it through Amazon. You can get the Kindle version of the book that I have that's for sale for a couple blocks. You know I'm not trying to make it a bunch of money on the books, I'm just
in fact, when I published it on on Amazon, I want to know what was the lowest price. They would allow me to sell the book and I think that it is eight dollars and forty cents is. It is the least of allow me to sell the book here so in the Kindle version is like a couple dollars, but you get the became a versions of the earlier ones, Two. No, I I don't you know, I'm I'm I'm working on other things, and, and is this long, is if people buying isn't and I get I get all all after I get strange thing happened to me. I know you want to get me off. Right now, probably, but go ahead the Laurette NICE contacted me, and she said she's name after him, she said I was named after my uncle and I never thought think about that. Until I found out who he was and
and I found out about your book and she she got in touch with me, and I guess I don't know what her circumstances are, but she couldn't afford to buy the book. So I I a book and she read it, and she contacted me a couple of times and written to me. There very strange, but now a lot of a number of people from from victims. Your family members have contacted me and now they were grateful. I wrote the book because for some reason the part where I witnessed his execution helps them go through it interesting yeah yeah anyway. No, I think, buried the big tribute to to your sister to your beloved sister and it's a very, very interesting book. It's heart, wrenching, of course, as I think the two
Prime reader has gone through enough our in their lives, they they can relate and on all the two grand books I read it. Is it a few huge component of the story, it's just its great when we get the perspective right from someone like yourself right in the family, so it's a fine book, and I want to thank you very much for coming on this evening and sharing that with us in true murder. It's my pleasure, nice talking to you well, thank you very much Dennis and you have a good evening good me too, good night.
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Transcript generated on 2021-06-01.