Hi, I'm Jay, Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty and now I found from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. These be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but the far thus appealing blobfish,

Come on. To add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. The House of Roll journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life. Well, crafted welcome to the House of Rome loyalty is all about being there day in day out.

Tripoli thanks you for being there with loyalty rewards like when you get savings on triple a auto insurance, just for being a triple a member, and when you switch to triple a auto insurance, you could save more based on how long you've been a triple a member and how long you've had your current insurance insurance. Not just insurance, learn more about triple a auto insurance and loyalty, rewards click now or visit Tripoli, dot, com, slash insurance,. Blog talk, radio

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening. Ae Network has set at November premiere for the killing season. Docu series from Oscar winning executive producer Alex Gibney from going clear scientist, lodging in the prison of belief. This eight episode series follows document

Joshua, Zeman Cropsey and reach emails from killer legends as they investigate one of the most bizarre unsolved serial killer cases of our time. The deaths of ten sex workers did covered on Gilgo Beach long island authorities, but these killings are the work of the long island serial killer after five, years remains at large forging relationships with cyber sleuths journalist and victims, families. Zeman and mills uncover connections that suggest Long island is just the beginning through there investigation. The pair discover connections to unsolved murders from Atlantic City to Daytona each and beyond, revealing that serial killers are targeting sex workers in record numbers. While using the internet as a virtual? hunting ground. The killing season will premiere with back to back episodes November 12th the killings. Reason, the any documentary series premiering November 12th with my special

yes, documentarian filmmakers, Joshua, Zeman and Rachel Mills. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview and welcome to the program Joshua, Zeman and Rachel Mills. Thanks for having us. Thank you Thank you very much. This is powerful. This is important, gripping disturbing incredible congratulations. I give all the credit to this incredible investigation that you've undertaken and this project the killing season now Rachel, you were just a little briefly your background that just to show the audience, basically where you came from before this project, just an assistant director and you were known for killer legends just recently in twenty fourteen

and Josh Zeman. You were responsible for the Netflix Cropsey, brilliant documentary, Auntie, two thousand and nine and you wrote and directed that and you were both involved with killer legends and you, as you say, in the to get to the origins of summer, most terrifying urban. Legends and true stories that may have inspired them. Now, which is the killing season, tell us uh I guess maybe Rachel tell us what was the genesis of the killing season. How did it come to be that both of you people decided to do this? Tell us what those circle chances were sure we we both live in New York, and this first case together. Murder, investigation, wires and long island, which is not the job hopping to get away from where we are New York, so show the first set of bodies for bodies found within days of each other

in two thousand and ten, so those values were discovered after except for her name. Argent. A girl for a young woman went fishing back guy a year before about a year before so during her search on their answers. Are she and go over police symbol upon these four sets of bodies along a desolate highway months after that about six more bodies were found. Not too far away, so a lot of carnage along one strip? highway out long island, and we still anybody's we thought that this case would be solved, but you're one went by your two went by and it seemed to be no movement So you know once about the third year went by on Josh and I were were doing killer legends

and we decided well, you know what this should be our next project and now we were going to do this as a documentary feature, but after investigating the Goebel case discovered that unfortunately, crimes such as these involving sex workers, are happening all across the country and there see used to be not a lot of answers very similar to that being the peace in long island. No Josh. You started, as you say in this that you started this. Investigation on Memorial Day now with that investigation, how did you begin your Investigation On memorial day into the long island, serial killings. Well I mean one of the first things we were doing was you know interviewing sex workers, and you know what

There's a woman that you see in a series named super and we were driving around with her, and it was just so fascinating because here was a woman who was escorting. In the same, you know, kind of hunting grounds at the killer was using, and she didn't know that much about the case New women have been killed and you know we were driving her around taking her from who Delta hotel talking to her about. You know sex work and was she afraid an what she didn't know is that Memorial Day was basically the start of hunting season for this killer. It's believed that he found most of his victims during that time, and so One of the reasons that she did notice is because the police weren't really telling anything to anybody,

You know it was unfathomable to me that with so many murders out there that the police, at some point stopped talking to the general public, stopped communicating to the general public. And you know when that happens. People are going to speculate, and that was one of the reasons that we decided to pick up a camera now let's go back to the story that you capture, so I mean vividly and disturbingly an grippingly. Let's go back to Shannon Gilbert and, you talked about you got had access to this woman called super and you at some point Documentary go on a drive prostitute around for a week, so you really do see get a little slice.

From their own that owns their own lens. So tell me about so tell us about the Shannon Gilbert and her real state of affairs. How long had she been a prostitute? What was her background just before this tell us the case of or the story of, Shannon Gilbert? to reveal how they discovered the other bodies on Gilgo Beach. Well, that's one of the weird things here you know basically, Shannon Gilbert is an escort she's living in Jersey City and she gets a call from a perspective John out in the kind of very desolate area known as oak Beach and she had the driver, which is kind of interesting because you know. A driver is not like a pimp. It's just some who's driving her out to where she's going and she goes. She meets a a John by the name of Joseph Brewer.

They are, you know, party, for a couple hours and then something happens. We don't quite know exactly what it is, but brewers Bin open with police, and he says that chairman starts to freak out. If something were to happen, something with this book tour and he calls the driver who's waiting outside earn. The driver comes in a man by the name, Michael Pack. They trying to bring Sharon and kind of back to the car to get around and she's like hiding behind the couch she so freaked out at some point, brewer reaches for her. You know to kind of pull or outside of the house, and she freaked out. She runs outside. She apparently thought trips and falls on, gets back up, and then she should

parts to run through this kind of seaside community. By the way, it's very isolated. It's about two thousand and twenty five minutes away from any store. Anything like that and she's knocking on neighbors doors screaming for help. She knocks out a couple neighbors doors. Some answer, some don't one of them guy by the name. Gus kind of invites are tour inside This is about five hundred o'clock in the morning and she is screaming that they're trying to kill her she's hysterical and he says he's going to call the police. She says no, don't call the police. She runs back down the stairs and kind of runs in this community. Meanwhile, Michael Pack, who's our driver is searching for and to make a long story short. She basically run

down the street towards the water, and it's never seen from Again- and it's at this point that kind of the real mystery began on the police attention. We come a couple hours later and at that point Shannon had made a phone call to nine hundred and eleven on her cell phone and Shannon did really know where she was so. She said she was near Jones. Beach so she is routed to the state police in fact is not really in Jones Beach, anymore, she's in a different area, she's actually just right across the county line, so the pool gets transferred to Jones Beach and then and it gets transferred to another law enforcement agency on the Suffolk County side and basically she's on the phone for like Twenty one to twenty three minutes reading for helping all these other things. And then her phone goes dead, Ann, so

She could never tell the police when she was on the phone where she was and the only reason the police came was because the neighbors who had called her and so there's a little bit of a disconnect there between Shannon's nine one one call and then the neighbors nine hundred and eleven calls an in fact that connection is never made the two longswords legacies Neversink up an what basically happens is the drive he goes home he doesn't know what happens to her and then Shannon's boyfriend calls the driver when she doesn't come home and then they try and file a missing persons report. We hear that or were told basically when the boyfriend and the John GO to file a missing persons report in Suffolk County there's, some make kind of laughed because sex workers,

You know she's a sex worker. You know she probably just ran out. That's what they said. An there's, a definitely fumbling of the missing persons case Shannon, as I mentioned before, was from Jersey City. So you know there's some Oh no idea of where the missing persons report should be filed, Jersey City, where she from or Suffolk County, where she disappears from and Shannons missing persons report. Neither law enforcement agencies really wants to kind of take the missing persons report. So, there's all these factors that lead up to the fact that no one is kind of looking for Shannon. For a couple days now the crazy thing is Shannon. No one can find her and it basically takes more than a year for that to happen. So, while the police, they spend a couple of days even weeks looking for her, they can't find her. Nobody knows what happens, but me

while one of the cadaver dogs and the trainer who, had been searching for Shannon. Basically, had been using that same area a couple months later to train his dog and the dog stumbles upon the bodies of four other escorts sex workers who had been found wrapped in Bro, about a mile and a half away from where Shannon disappeared and that kind of jump start. The whole story now Rachel just the part that in in the da documentary that you, you and Josh do is to talk to somebody, the police and get their opinion Shannon Gilbert and the likelihood of this being an accident and that's what they chalked it up to. But you also talk can have incredible access to people in the family. So tell us the diff

since between those two interviews opinions on what happened to Shannon sure well, just to be transparent. The only we did not talk to any active police in the first few episodes that deal fee probably changes later on, but we talked to dormer, who is the x? police commissioners of accounting- and he does believe that Shannon is just wasn't accident. She simply drowned in the marsh and expired now. The thing is: is that the police have been pretty tight, lipped, The family would probably argue that they haven't heard from the police for quite awhile, and when you don't hear from police, you know it creates a void of information and there therein creates a lot of speculation and also you know this is

family members who have not a lot of answers. You know the twenty three minutes, nine one one call has not been released. And I understand their argument that if the police are saying it is an accident, then why wouldn't they release the twenty three minutes? nine hundred and eleven call that doesn't seem to be a lot of reason that if they do I agree that it isn't accent why they wouldn't release that, so the families simply looking for answers and they Do you believe that there was some kind of foul play with Shannon's death? Now you know Josh and I Err on the side that you know, she probably did expire in that marsh. However, that doesn't mean she didn't need someone during her twenty three minute journey, running up and down the dark streets of oak beach

You know we don't know. Someone gave her some saying that you know combined with maybe another drug. She turned that led her to go into that March and that Marsh is very very cold. You know long long island I mean here it's a small stretch of land between a bay in an ocean away. Things are very strong, even in the beginning of May, which, which is when she when she died in that Mars, Josh and I went out there and I was using you know an I had gloves. I had goulash is on a and you know she supposedly stripped bare and went through it. So it doesn't surprise me, with the come and get you when when you get into that marsh, so so it you know, there's I think, there's a lot of unanswered questions in the Shannan Gilbert King,

and again if they do really believe that that it is totally accidental and she did drown just really really the twenty three minute phone call. So we can move on and investigate the rest of these these murders, because when we talk about Shannon Gilbert, the attention goes to her understandable, but there's also another anybody, five of which are unidentified which could lead to a lot of answers local investigation. Now. What you do is you introduce I guess to the world that people the rest of the world that doesn't know about websluice dot com and- and you also introduce a character- you say an amateur profiler that you vetted through free in

sing process to be able to believe that what he is saying is kredible and uh. This is a Peter Brent, so tell us about web sluice and the rise. Of this crowd, solving community and also what p had said initially about Shannon Gilbert and in relation to the long island serial killer and what he had in his thoughts about the long island serial killer. I mean this goes back to the ideas act. You know. After three years, the police have stopped talking to the public, and you know I guess he stopped talking to 'cause. You know they really didn't, have any answer an as a result. As we were saying when you stop speaking to the public, you start to get a lot of speculation, an especially in you know, in this kind of digital age that we're living in, and so there was a?

explosion of speculation on the internet. Now. What's very interesting. Is that lot of the speculation. We did. A lot of different forms, people work trolling, each other sniping each other calling each other the killer. The whole nine yards back in a very on organized way, but you know the internet. You know when it comes to true crime. What we've noted Is there spin this real rise in the internet, sleuthing and one of the places that's very good about internet sleeping is a site called web source, and you know this explosion

kind of looking at fear using clues, really started, and then Germany Ramsey case. But you know it also like took on a life of its own and not the least case, because it was so much speculation so because the police were saying anything we went to what we wanted to hear what people were saying and on let loose. We met this guy Peter Bright and you know everybody says, there's a lot of kind of crazy crack. It's on websleuths an you know. We definitely saw that, but but we could also tell that there were other people who seem to know what they were talking about. One of them was Peter Remember we kind of called him up and he right off the bat. You know he seemed to know exact What he was talking about- and I remember I even gave him some of the case files from Cropsey to see if he knew what he was talking about and he did and one of Peter's initial claims that he gave us was staring. You know, hey, listen, you know, I don't.

And it is connected, and he gave some really interesting reason to any, also kind of sad. You know it. The problem is the Suffolk County police. You know the kind of big big box the case, and so we started to real connect with Peter and what he was saying was very interesting. A lot of things that I didn't know at the time like, for example, the behavior profiling unit that was made famous in the silence of the lambs like that agency has been gutted. All those profilers have been taken were and are now working on counterterrorism, so kind of no one is left, really look at serial killers anymore, and so he just opened up this whole fascinating world have whether it's the amount of serial killers who are really out there or the fact that You know he believes, and people now say. I had no idea that he knew you city alone. There are six active serial killers at any one.

And that was just shocking to me. Another statistic that was is very important to this story and I think, will be very important to the feature of being able to profile these killers and addressing this problem even remotely, and that is that you cite a statistic about how how many serial killers hour, how many the percentage of prostitutes that were killed at one time time, as opposed to percentage of prostitutes are killed by Ciller Serial killers today and why yeah it's interesting. It says it's a statistic I didn't know either, but makes a lot of sense when you start thinking about writing from the 1970s. We learned that. Serial murderer involving sex workers increased by, I believe it's seventy percent you know back in the seventy in the 60s and 70s

those are going after runaways Sorority, girls hitchhikers, you know, but in this trackable society that we live in now, they know the killers know who to go to go after and those are the people who are living on the fringes, those the people who were true, it was a law enforcement themselves. Those are the people who are using burner cell phones who are dealing. Cash transactions who oppose heated, packs, Backpage and Craigslist. You know we think that ' Everyone you know can be connected by and ip address or a phone number or obviously they can track something. But you know these women smart and they want to continue doing business in the way they are and to do that they need to be not trackable and the serial killers.

I know that they know that for one just technologically they're, not trackable. In addition, These women are living on the fringes and do move around a lot and do go underground and in some cases are being controlled by pence, then sell send. So they know that We know also that uhm, you know sometimes a lot of police agencies, don't take their missing persons cases seriously. In addition, do if text Parker comes up dead may not have that at the top of the private because they're, not blonde hair blue eyes, authority, girls, they don't have community,

rain down on their doors to solve a case which is completely traffic. So yeah. That's that's interesting. I did not know and Don. It is very fast. Let's get back to kill, go beach and we just touched on the how the four bodies were buried and ranged, you can talk to you, discuss Josh with Peter about the significance of how they were buried will say for exam, full end the burlap and so before we get into the other bodies that are found later. Let's talk about those four bodies and what you and Peter discussed an what your conclusion was in the film at least.

About the long island, Selinka, serial killer and those four body yeah. I mean those four bodies there known into Gilgo Beach for and that's because the signature is pretty much the same, Sex worker kind of around the same height and size are all wrapped in burlap all they were scaled tonight, but they weren't dismembered and they were kind of dumped in the brush about five hundred feet from each other in this kind of very specific section so so that's kind of very much one signature, and you know as Peter was telling us. You know this is very much collection behavior. You know this guy likes to probably drive along the highway. Knowing that you know he's buried these bodies there. You know a lot of returning to the scene of the crime. He stops. Maybe doesn't, but you know these women '

'cause, their signature is so specific because of the graveyard staging because of The bodies were wrapped in burlap, they get one one. And their known as the Gilgo beach. For so now tell us the circumstances, of the investigation. How again we already know that this investigation is stymied, obviously, but they give us a search stances in which other bodies are discovered. Well, I'm sorry go ahead, Ridge and yeah. I was just gonna say I mean after the four were found in December, two thousand and ten over the next four months. I believe it was another. Five bodies were found that continued we identified that includes a mother and child mother and toddler, an asian male who is found in women's clothing,

another woman on whose body parts were found years before she actually two women whose body parts were found years before and that another set of their body parts were found during those months. So you still have I've unidentified remains, which is huge, in my opinion, to be a source of clues to possibly solve an investigation. I I think, that's actually one of the biggest way is that you could solve this case is to identify one of those identified. People- and you know we talk about Websleuths Ann exam we worked with the gentleman on. What's this, whose name is Carl K who's had, I think about five or six matches of linking up. Different person with an identified remains, and that is one of the best things. Drug food is good at

so you know, we know there is information, but the police had, but they have not yet released, and I hope that they do and maybe they will, after the show airs. For instance, they have clothing from asian male. He was dressed in women's clothing. They could release the photo of that draft. Someone might have seen that person. We think that he wasn't sex workers, so you haven't Asian male sex worker in women's clothing. We also know, but he had a limp. So that's a lot, that's actually doesn't sound like much. Maybe that's a lot to go on, so if they simply release that information. That could be a huge, next clue. In addition to that, the mother and toddler who were uh throne, seven miles away from each other and which I think that pretty much

Keller did know what he was doing on two separate those those bodies. The toddler was wrapped in a blue, you know another fabric that they have and it's a child There's family members out there, who I'm sure, know that this child is missing so as far as status on these additional bodies, there's a wealth of information out there and it hopefully it will just take time for the case to unfortunately go even more colds to where the police will feel compelled to finally reach out to the pub

for nation held back for so long, can I say something else about these bodies, so you know we were talking before about the kill. Go beach for these bodies. Interestingly enough have a completely different signature. These bodies were not wrapped in burlap and for the most part they were dismembered. Also, you know they were just ma'am, the body parts that were seen here, they're pretty much identification by parts hands. Forearms had things like that now, Rachel had mentioned that there were six bodies and it's very interesting. One of those bodies, a woman who is known as fire island Jane DOE now what's into thing about her part of her body. Parts were found along Stretch of road called Ocean Parkway, but her severed legs were actually found

on another barrier, island just north of guilt, because each culture, fire island and those legs were discovered in nineteen. Ninety six, now that's where you start to bring in these questions. If your friend Ex guy Tang HAI, nineteen, ninety six and and and the GB four beats for women were found in two thousand ten wow, that's quite a long time for a single killer to be active. Now, there's something else. You should start to question here: Q, two of those to the same dismembered body parts, the other half. Let's say these two women one is now known as Jane DOE number

six and the other one whose name we do know Jessica Taylor, their other halves, their torsos, pretty much- were found in manner Ville now manner. Ville is there another desolate area, but this is like the woods. This is called the pine barrens of Long Island and they were found over forty miles away. So you start to get confused. I mean look at all. The different body parts were talking out. Look at the different signatures that we're talking about. We've got women who are found. Half their body parts are found here. Half their body parts are found. Forty miles away. You've got another woman whose body part whose legs are found in nineteen. Ninety six, it starts to bring up a lot of questions about different signatures and length of time and what is really going on here- and this basically gets to one of the core questions hum.

Case, which is how many serial killers are we really talking about here, and I remember when we first heard about this case, and somebody started whispering that it may not just be one serial killer, but it's in fact too. I thought that was somebody was making it up and send it to me like a movie, but after looking at this case, and it's extremely complicated if I've confused you, that is what the kill there's have obviously intended to happen, and I now do believe in fact that it is two killers which goes against the form. Commissioner Richard Dormer theory, but some other police, including the current district attorney, do believe it's to kill and to me the fact in this day and age we can have all these different body parts and we know so much

Yes, I and and forensics yet for there to be such question among experts is really shocking. To me, what's fascinating is that you take it to the web sleuths an Peter and why this Peters deduce about the new in the grease with you about two serial killers. But what does he say? It's very it's very dramatic and I meet Peter German right. He you know he he he. He has a great what the stylus eighty things and and like we say very good. He got you're, not dancing with one zero killer, you're dancing with you and bill what Peter says and what I do. I found the most fascinating, is that you know when you hear about two serial killers operating in the same area usually think they're working together, but what he says is in fact there in competition and he believe

we're dealing with two different serial killers, one the list killer known as the long island, serial killer, who's killed the GB four, and then we have this other serial killer, known as the manner bill butcher and this guy this manner Ville butcher. He calls him a torso killer, now, Peter you know a lot of what Peter says. Trust me we go in and we do a lot of background check like it's Peter really right is, you know we didn't know during the whole show whether he was kind of taking us for a ride. An torso killers are really a special special br, They come up a little bit in history, there's the Cleveland torso killer, which is a very interesting case for everybody, who's kind of into that stuff. Some believe the black dahlia killer is is related to torso killing and then there is probably one of the most famous torso killers of all time, which is

the Whitehall, chapel, murder and again this goes back to the idea of torso. Killers are very competitive, and that may be actually what happen in the jack the Ripper case, hi Jack the ripper, and then you had the Whitehall Chapel murders. Interesting now, let's get to one of the most profound parts of this Well I mean the entire series is profound, but early on you have an interview with Melissa. Barthomley up we miss pronounce. The name and then the sister so tell us, first story and this brighten the phone call that to get years later. Tell us her story. Yeah Melissa would anything if I'm not mistaken, which I definitely could be in a two. So one thousand and nine and she went missing from from Manhattan.

Supposedly she got one thousand dollars, Outcall and was headed to long island. That's about all that we know fast forward. I believe it was only A few days is that right, Josh, uh. I don't think it's a few days if you weeks, yeah uh, and and her sister Amanda, her sister Amanda was actually supposed to go, see her only a couple of days after she went missing, so they knew something was wrong very early Can you try to call her? No answer, no answer, and then all of a sudden they receive this phone call from melisses phone. It came up on caller id as Melissa. So, of course there you know leaves Moses, okay and and and calling but Amanda answers the phone and it's it's a guy

on the other end of the line, and she tells Amanda who's very young. At this point I believe she's only about fifteen years old very close with her sister, told her that you know he has Melissa and that are you a? I don't know the specifics right now, but over the course of the next few weeks he continued to call her and torment her with with what he was doing with Melissa at the time with the last phone. All I'm saying that he had killed her sister, her sister and maybe one day, he'll go and show her where he's body where she's buried that's the biggest clue right now that I think we know exists, that of the

I don't. This is a prank phone call at all. I think this was really the killer who killed, who called her. Unfortunately, you know this is fact six years ago, technology wasn't as as great is now it's it's. Unknown whether they were able to really trace a call if they were when they traced it. You know it was traced to to midtown near the long island, railroad near Penn station. So there's so, culation whether that guy was a computer who lives in long island. Could you just go there because he knew that a lot of other people, it's a big tourist attraction- would be there, so even if they did trace the call they couldn't pinpoint it to him, but it's real,

interesting, and it's really tragic and sad that you know she she's the only person. We know who's actually spoken to him, and you know it's twisted that he continued not only to torment Melissa but got his rocks off informing the family as well yeah I mean what we do know from sellers. What we do know from an expert on. I think it's communication. What's his name, do you remember that gentleman's name? He was awesome and yeah? That's right wrote numerous articles on So this idea of the communication that happens after- and you know this- this could be very similar to you know the kind of either that Jimmy Breslin son of SAM, communications, although that's actually in reality quite different but or the Zodiac,

which this is probably more, but you know it's a way for these killers to continue to kind of relive the fantasy, basically that same killing by kind of tormenting the sister I mean he said I hear Half breed, you know, do you know what your sister did? You know indicating the fact that you know some judgment on the fact that she was sex worker, so Eight, it's really tragic what happened, but we do believe in fact that is the biggest mistake that the killer has made to date. You also I don't. I I want to elaborate just a bit because you do have like in the book are part, in the series that you talk about that he called and he said to Amanda, who was fourteen or fifteen? Are you a whore like your sister, and that very important the words and the Lang which data used in that call

then to have. You also spoke to Peter as well. You discuss with Peter as well. The significance of this in this communication, and also he mentions at the end and he said: listen. I've killed your sister of finally killed your sister, I'm going, watch your body rot and maybe someday I'll come and get you to go, come and see every it's very powerful when you have the father explained and then you have the sister just in silhouette explaining her story very, very powerful. But what is Peter believe about that communication from the long. I will include killer in terms of significance in terms of every century value, that being the first verse can't

I don't know reach what does he say about that? I presented yeah. That's that's a good question. I mean we talk about. We talk about like trying to figure out where he went wrong like where can we find his like so so so Peter says, with Marine Brainerd Barnes, who arguably alright first victim, you know, go back to her 'cause you'll, see him in his forming stages and see where he may have tripped up now. Do you want to do you want to get this away Josh

yeah go ahead? Ok, now Sarah corns, he was with Marine Brainerd Barnes the night. She went missing and she's the first of the Gogo Beach four to the missing back in two thousand and seven her front. Sarah was with her that night last person to see her Sarah says two weeks to the day she received a call and She does believe the person who called her, who said are you friends with Marie Marie was Marines Street name for cargo name, and he said you know she's fine. Are you the house and clean? So you you brought up. The work, for you know is: is that once in which their current is is convinced. It was SAM

he's using the word whore, which a lot of people don't use, and so you know that could have been a mistake early on that he made. So you know so active. You know he could be, he could have moved on. He could be in prison, he could be dead he could be in a latent period and is killing, but he sounds like he is a person who does really enjoyed the communication factor in. Joy, continuing that tormenting of people who are close to these victims. So if that is true, and have continued doing what he's doing. It wouldn't surprise me if he, if he does continue killing that he will communicate with those with those close to the people he has filmed yeah now, Josh tell us about the further involvement with web sleuths and how they uncover

an actual name from the Suffix County Police department. Right This is very exciting and well. You know that wasn't a web sleuther, but that was actually one that was actually are one of our associate producers, but she much like the website is kind of just you know trolls the internet. Looking for information and you know, as she says, I had no idea about this. That Wikipedia is community, the you know sourced and you could go in on with the Pedia. What you wanted to do is she just wanted to see what people were doing. In terms of like vandalizing the the list Wikipedia page and she finds in the history. Somebody had put a proper name, a gentleman's name, and we kind of pull up the gentleman's name, and we see see that he is currently please

in charge. Theoretically, corrections officer and he's been charged with harassing some women in the Suffolk County prison. We. You know that's interesting for sure, but of course it could be trolled, I mean there's so much strolling, but the but the most interesting thing was the person who posted the information seems to have posted from inside the Suffolk County Police Department, because that's where the IP address was from, and so that, erase a whole bunch of questions. Is it somebody who believes that this guy did it and somehow

you know they don't have. The evidence is in an example of strolling. I mean just the idea that somebody from inside the Suffolk County Police Department or somebody using that ip address posts and aim to Wika Pedia suddenly calls into a whole bunch of questions. Is it the guy or you know what kind of control is running at Suffolk, county police department? Is that just you know Tro Ling from inside I mean so. We ended up looking at that and that was very interesting kind of. I think we we didn't listing job of you know, kind of sourcing, whether he was involved or not. But I think this is the idea. This is kind of like a perfect example of how you can use the internet in the proper way to kind of theoretically dig up clues yeah the thing is: is

this is an incredible while he this long iron serial killer and then, as you talk about in the series that goes way beyond this. Just one investigation and we will talk about a little bit of the linkage that you do make but what I wanted to say was the incredible step by step, hunt that you you have for this long, island, serial killer and the I guess bad. Their term of sort of a gumshoe approach to tracking down information. Speaking with victims, families, anybody that could speak to you, every telephone call is recorded, so it just seems to be like little bits. Little piece by piece very much like a police investigation. Your investigation is going where the police neither have the time focus or as you point out in the in the series, how unconnected police forces are

and while we're talking about that non connectedness, you do talk about Vicap and it's failing so tell us about what you did find out about Vikash what we think we believe about Vicap and what is reality yeah I mean look. I was in. Hindsight I was really naive coming into this series, at least when it concerns lawn Forsman agencies. Being connected. You know, I think that we all have. This preconceived notion and that there's some big Brother data cloud. We're feeding data into twenty four slash. Seven, and that's really not the case. I really thought that you know there's a missing persons database, an unidentified means database, the homicide database and they

all interconnected. A cross reference stand if someone goes missing on campus and they pop up and Eleanor. You know I'm simplifying it, that a a yellow light would would go off and- and you know, the kids to be soft shot. Absolutely not the case. You know we live in a very, very fractured system, the broken system. You know I did not know that law enforcement agencies do not have to report their homicide data. They are not mandated to report the homicide data into any kind of federal saturdays and that's that database would be by half. So there are so many the dots that cannot be connected. Because of that you know, and further on, in the series we become acquainted with Thomas Hargrove

Hargrove who's, a data journalist who he's a citizen, he has compiled the largest homicide database in the country by going through freedom of information acts and, in some cases, doing the state of Illinois for their homicide data, so we have a long way to go to the place where I think a lot of people think we exist, which is like this. It kind of goes into that, like csi effect that with our what we think is so far future good technology that we should be able to solve all times. It's really just not the case. And I'm hoping that so well watch the show well and realize realize that it's yes, these cases are really horrific and tragic, and it's really sad for

families and and the victim then that these cases are installed, but in addition to that, but there are reasons why these cases remain unsolved, and that is because of this kind of linkage. Blindness because of these connections that cannot be made. In addition to so many other societal factors, you know we're creating a virtual petri dish for these tailors to get away with murder. Right I just to add on to that. I mean you know we're not here to throw law enforcement under the bus. I think a lot of month horsemen understand the limitations of their own. Computer databases, you know, and a lot of enforcement law enforcement agencies do send their information, but a lot of times information doesn't get sent for whatever reason and that really prevents even the best detectives from doing their jobs to the fullest extent's she in in in our show. You know we had one of the former.

Divide cats tell us like they are missing connections. You know thousands of missing persons unidentified bodies. You know if these systems were bad. You know if all this information was mandated and sent in then You can do a much better job of connecting these crimes and look. It can happen the in Canada. They have the Vicap system as well. It's slightly different, but basically it's based on our system and all the law enforcement agencies in Canada have to send their murder data in in America. We're dealing with seventy into twenty thousand different law enforcement agencies is a lot of jurisdictional issues, and you know, there's there's the perception that you know it's a freedom, it's an individual freedoms issue, but

or talking about murder here, and so I don't think we should be dealing with personal liberty issues when we're talking about. So having murders, and so it was just shocking to me again, not one single law enforcement agency in the United States federally mandated to share its murder data with one with them at the ice by cap system. Eight- and it's just crazy to me, and all the time and effort and tv shows that that just deal with solving cases and murders all day long. Yet we don't even do that in real life. How did the world? Don't know that now this incredible series has some stuff in other episodes that people will see November 12th in the two episodes that they view.

But how does this investigation into the long island serial killer that we already have been talk talking about it looks like two serial killers with different signal. Is operating in the same area, if not more, you said six so. Let's talk about how this investigation morphed into a much bigger investigation and included other cities like Daytona Beach in Atlantic City and talk more little bit, about which I thought was one of the most shocking things? Is the statistics. Surrounding long haul truckers and that type long haul, serial murder. Before we get into that. I just want to clarify what I don't think we're talking about more than two zero killers. What we're saying is like in any big city with with with numbers like New York City,

we're saying there could be six active serial killers at anyone time, but just to be clear, I think in long island were pretty specifically saying it's probably too so, probably not more. However, there are more serial killers, obviously in long island, but I think with regards to the Gilgo Beach case. I think we're talking about a max to some may disagree. No, that's great, I mean I, you did say New York, six and long island. We've, just It was is enough, I think so, right now, anyway, activeness. So how to take more republic? How does it take investigation morph into those other cities yeah. You know you really interesting yeah. It's really interesting. I think I think it was not too far to reach to go and investigate the AC murders, which was,

for sex workers, found behind a seedy hotel in a graveyard staging close to water extreme similar to, long island with the Gilgo Beach for broken November of two Open six, which was only about GOSH seven, eight months before Green Brainerd Barnes disappeared, which is the first of the guild of each form. So you know, AC is only one hundred and twenty miles away from from long island from Gogo Beach, and so that would definitely worth us checking out. And we did and yes are definitely area similarities? I would not say the same perpetrators responsible but watt. It led to was really discovering and that's the point when I found out from

in Aquanet, who has done tons of research kind of on the progression of serial homicides involving sex workers that they have increased by. Seventy percent include 70s, so this whole kind of world open up to us that I think we did not know, necessarily existed, that serial killers were praying upon sex workers in record numbers all across America. You know we started this series out looking at the log time in caves and looking at serial murder in general. Thinking that you know we can to get different, serial murder of not just sex workers but as different populations, and it just tap coming up that these cereal,

her case is almost always involved. Not only people who live on the fringes, butt, butt sex workers, an people who have substance abuse issues. So I think that once we investigated ac- and we looked down- not dark alleyway, that dark road and with our communication with web sleuths, who told us, you know what there's this case in Daytona which is is quite similar. You know another for sex workers who were killed at the beach commune, do the tourist town near water kind of just kept going with this story? Let us and you bring up long haul truckers. That is a terrifying subset of killers you know not only do serial murderers, no, all the different contributing factors to having them be.

Able to get away with murder, but long haul truckers also understand that there is territorial ism. When it comes, crime, they understand they can pick up a woman in one stage killer and Denver somebody in another state and there is going to be a jurisdictional issues. Look. Listen to be a lack of connection for that, so you know it just and bigger and bigger and bigger, and the winds just became wider and wider and wider as we continued looking into these cases. You know that, and that was one of the things you know people ask us you know are: are these cases really connected and we like to say they are just not in the ways that you might think and that's kind of one of the big overarching themes of the show either look a lot of your guess.

An deal with serial murder. You know we're very into it as a society, serial murder, it's it's one of the most taboo sub action is one of the most interesting to kind of figure out why it is somebody do with eighteen year, L and that whole thing. You know profiling in stature- and you know I like it too, but sometimes. We create connections to alleviate our fear. You know so it's a natural tendency to create connections, and it helps us survive an unfortunately, When we kind of create these connections, everybody had the last name or everybody was killed on the same date or all these uh issues weekend kind of miss the big picture. An the connections here is not that it's one super duper see real killer going through all these different. You know beachside communities and killing these women.

The connection is that we've created a culture that allows these women to be killed and it allows these killers to believe that they can get away with it, and that is really the true message of what we're talking about. You know as, as you said, you know this. Serial killing and sex workers is gone up dramatically, but there's a whole bunch of other issues at hand. The fact is Rachel said: there's databases that aren't speaking to each other and there's long haul killers that know that with so many different law, enforcing agencies that believe it or not, that same old kind of Hollywood, trope of territorialism that real. You know they know that the best way to Um get it. With murder is to dump a body over state lines and you would think

well that might even that probably work in the seventies, but still true today, and that's because the shot know what what did you talk about in the in the series as well as that? once upon a time if it wasn't risky enough for a woman, just to jump into somebody's vehicle for drugs are for for sex without any kind of backup whatsoever, and those were the victims of serial killers- is that now, as you talk about in the series that people feel that because it's social media or because it has some kind of legitimacy by internet that they feel safer. And then you point out: again the phenomena that I hadn't really thought about very much at all, the very, very horrifying subset, as you say, of serial murder, with the long haul, truckers and to add to the horror in the in the series you are you a serial killer, John,

Robert Williams. So just tell us a little bit, don't give it away, but I mean just tell us on. How you got this interview, an what you wanted to information that you wanted to get from John Robert Williams, yeah. It's a really good question. You know we wanted to find a killer who was in prison who would admit to his murders? That's very hard to do. I mean a lot of these, mostly men are you know, going through trying to get new trials, get things overturned and so there are always looking for you to help them and match. I think that both Josh and I knew that I'd had or luck on your mostly men right.

We would have better luck for me. Writing these letters, which is quite scary when I think about it, but so he was one of the few who wrote back and said, yeah I committed these murders. I actually killed up to thirty woman. He may be embellishing not quite sure. And I would talk to you and what we heard from him was actually spot on. Quite surprisingly, and she she said all the things that we been talking about, that he really understood as a long haul trucker that he could pick up a woman in one stage and killer and drawer in another state, because he said I believe he said he has certain rules when it comes to killing anw, One is: what was it charge? Don't kill

don't kill your own hometown. You know drop the body and drop the body over state line and he said that he got caught exactly exactly so. We were really surprised that he had such a keen inside in how law enforcement works and that he was able to manipulate then really use that you know, and then you know I don't want to give it all away, but then he told us a very what some people might think is a tall tale of arm doing other serial killers who were still out there still on.

Working in the highways of America and still getting away with murder yeah. That was just incredible to me. Look at you know. I think we were so shocked by the idea that in disdain age, religion between law enforcement agencies, what's so prevalent, that would prevent murders from Bing solved you know like, and so what we want it is. We wanted to find a long haul serial killer, who would tell us that they use these inadequacy's of law enforcement? That do they existed this church oils and existed and they used it to their advantage because we were trying to you know we want lawn Forsman to work together, We want everybody to work together. We want everybody to kind of create the best create the best database as possible. So if we can speak to

a long haul, serial killer, who kind of could point out who could say, point blank? Yes, I I knew you know that these guys, don't speak to each other, maybe it would help convince everybody to close that loop and the Good NEWS is. We are seeing that looping closed a little bit. We now know that law enforcement agencies are making better attempts to put that territorial ism aside, but we need to be even better. We need to really be working together as much as possible, and so that was our goal. I think it's interesting too. Is that you expand this. As you say that this investigation is expanded to an examination of the int, phenomenon of serial murder and murder in general, especially when it comes to

marginalized, the prostitute. That seems to be always the victim of these people and then you get to do again. This is so profound, this series that you even talk to this very courageous that you interview a motorcycle club member and prostitutes already didn't have enough of a tough time in America. Then you talk about the border, the border states, where It looks like what you found his prostitutes that are used as drug and money running and then disk was like trash in It doesn't show that expansion includes to talk about. Albuquerque, tell us a little bit about. This expansion into even more horrifying murder and that reality that goes along with it.

Yeah I mean when it came to New Mexico. We didn't know what we are stumbling in jail. I mean that's a lot of bodies found in a mass grave. You know it is interesting. Some people ask like why do you feel like going to solve any of these cases? I hope done with the show that we do on practical case to Albuquerque case was one of the few that I felt like guys, what what's going there's so many different threads to go down there, there's so many people there's so much speculation. There's all these, like grumblings of people knowing these women witnessing missing before they went missing, and these are women, unlike the one and unlike the women in Long island, they were working the street

they they had face to face, with vice cops on a daily basis people knew them and the drugs were hard. There I mean that's, that's places. You are like hanging out at three hundred o'clock in the morning and very sketchy neighborhoods. So speculation with that case is very very interest. Thing, I think it could definitely be some kind of drug cartels. Creation there, but again, that is one of the one of the LAN ports agency. Is that what the topic for us? They would not talk so as they are under investigation by the DA, adjusted and they, and they were mean to be into this. Data- have not really correspond with us at all. It's gonna be interesting with that. Well, not not lunch. It is going to be interesting with that case There is some new information coming out that we will

I'm back to as these as these episodes air. So there might be, attraction there. With that case, but that I'd be interested to see how that evolves one thing we do know for sure drugs. You know it's like. First of all, no little girl ever wants to grow up to be you know, a sex worker. You know- and you know, sex work is- is that a lot of times part and parcel with addiction and right? You know drugs are, there is number one, a huge opioid epidemic. Ravishing their country, and you know, and yet we even get into that- and of course you know, that's what's happening in Chillicothe, Ohio and and as the media you know we have again a tendency to like. Oh, there must be some reason for this. You know discovery id went

chill a coffee, Ohio thinking it was a serial killer and then they found out it was drugs. You know, but you know that doesn't fit with the narrative that we want to create here. You know it's it's sad and. You know, I think, there's a lot of drugs going on and I think you know that's one of the reasons you know that's here, but Rich brought up a very interesting thing and kind of stepping back and looking at it out of we worked with some very great law enforcement officials and the ones who were transparent were great MIKE Chitwood, who, at the time was the police chief of Daytona. The guy was extremely transparent, an you know,

you know I think people feel really safe in Daytona. Despite what was going on, and you know he was very open and he was great, but a lot of the other law enforcement agencies that we look at, let let me just say out of the five cities. We look at three of those cities law. Their law enforcement agencies were under investigation by the Department of Justice for civil rights violations, so that should be a clue that, you know unsolved serial killer cases, lawn Forsman agencies that are under investigation by the Department of Justice. What we looking at and what registered before? Is these? It's not just the killer, who commit these murders? Yes, that's the individual, but that the killer has to believe that he can get away with it. You know, and I think that that's the problem that we're looking at here it

It's just too easy for these guys to get away with it, whether there long haul serial killers, whether they're killing after american women in Cleveland or weather killing. You know caucasian sex workers on the internet in long island. We just make it too easy for these guys to get away with it. Now you talk about Trisha, Trisha, Griffith and he's, the owner of Websleuths Com- and you do talk about or basically refer, to the rule of of again this cyber community in being able to assist police and unofficially, because the police aren't asking nor they're encouraging any of this assistance whatsoever, but regardless this is somewhat of a call for. Energy is you prove in the series, it's very very effective, so tell us really what you would envision the role of

web sluice and documentary film makers, like yourself and just interested citizens could not ideally, but in practicality. What can they really do? That's a good question and listen. We get it like law enforcement like in terms of like having a real case and one that can stand in the court of law. Can you imagine somehow using a web sleuther like that that would never hold up yet at the same time, we all understand that law enforcement is underpaid and overworked, and you know the question here is you know? For example, like we see in long island, there are five victims who are unidentified in one of the largest hero killer cases in the past that five out of ten the victims that

So many possible clues here, and so one of the places where we found Websters really great, is doing a little work. The little details that law enforcement can finding those unidentified looking through. You know, court records public records, anything that can alleviate the burden law enforcement. An there's an example. New Mexico. A law enforcement agency had an unidentified victim and they had a partly disintegrated sure right and they gave that sure to let loose, and it was a very like specific asked they said: can you guys help us identify

what this picture is on, that we found on the body within twenty four hours, a wet suit. This had the picture and where you can buy and and all these other great information, okay, so Vax how you use these crowds looting sites, you give them one specific task. Can you put the power of the people in that one little tasks? So Lake region was saying earlier: what we want to do is encourage one enforcement to say: ok, everybody today or this week or this month. We all we want to find out who this unidentified victim is long, island asian male hears everything we know about him. Please help us find him we're going to have one specific officer. Who is there going to be asking all

You know they're there to answer all your questions read on the internet, like is how you use web solutions to solve these crimes or can that chip? You know what is this picture or you know you use them for the little details and not you know you would never use an actually solve a crime quote unquote. Did that make sense. Absolutely, and in this is as well, this fine worked at websleuths is doing in this encouragement of this fine work. Also, Rachel. You have undertaken a campaign to be able to correct some of the glaring problems with Vicap Ave. Well, I hope that if it's not us that someone will pick up that torch, Anna move forward or figuring out how we can create a system uncountability and check the balance is, you know we have

One person, one of the want to be asked director of Itab Greg Cooper who drugs were speaking About earlier, who understands me inside, the issues with and really does want to see law enforcement agencies. Having to enter in all their home aside data to make it completely mandatory and he, along with his organization, he's in our private citizen, called the Cold case foundation, is working at doing that. You know it's hard to make such Jude changes, especially on a federal level. So there working on a state by state program? These called the state compact agreement

it's kind of the same idea of drivers license. You know each day and the different drivers license, but supposedly, all the databases are linked up. It's kind of that same idea, that from because we are a state driven nation that go from one state to another, each state breeze two sign on and it will slowly become federally mandated we'll see if that happens, that hopefully at least people will understand the in total fragmentation of these databases and which, which I definitely did not know and will hopefully put some pressure on those in charge, you look on the who can make those decisions. I mean we're hoping look at you know it's not like you big data. Is you know, big businesses are using this all the time you know he is just a tragedy here. Is that the public sector,

who's behind the private sector. I mean look, you have an algorithm through Netflix that can tell you exactly what movie you want, but we don't have the same algorithm working a database, For connecting crimes one day that will happen, but there's no reason why that day can't be today. An you know. It's a shame that you know we don't have the same. You know check people working in the public sector that we do in the private sector. And you know it's a shame that, unfortunately, a lot of you know the financing that could go towards these Peter systems I mean- I get it like. If you had an opportunity, you know, would you want to, you know, get armored personnel character or would you want to get you know a better computer system,

You know I I kind of understand that you know we all why some people might say in our personnel carrier but at the end of the day, if you really wanna solve a lot of those crimes, those cold cases, you know you need the computer system. You know that's the reality of what in in doing your due diligence here in finding out what the reality is in terms of serial murder and who those victims likely are with that being the again vulnerable drug addicted, prostitute. What we've found is that this glaring void this whole will affect every single citizen in America, so

Congradulations on bringing that up and to the forefront, because it is up to us this system failing prostitute, it's feeling every citizen in America. Well, yeah I mean that's the whole thing. The crazy thing that we learned is that your idea of a prostitute, that's totally old school with the internet. Prostitution is changing as we know it, the world's oldest profession is changing, an now. Anybody with a cell phone can take a picture and post it online and meet up at the holiday Inn. So you know we're not talking about girls in necessarily walk the streets anymore. You know you don't have to do that anymore. You don't have

you know what we're finding, what we saw in Long island, which is especially this was middle class women. You know who needed to pay their rent, who had children of feed- and you know there's this idea that, because it's the internet, you're posting on Backpage or what have you that somehow shaper, but speaking to the professionals out there. We realized and found out that it's. Much more anonymous, the internet actually create a new level city that nobody really understands an you know what we're also finding is that you know nowadays the woman who is posting is? Is you know it could be you sister, your mother, you know it it again. The world's oldest profession is changing as we know it, an anybody could become that victim now,

absolutely tell us again when the premier of the killing season Dokyusei trees, will begin bye, premieres on Saturday on November, twelve, with back to back episodes long Island episodes one and two and then go next four weeks. So I'm two episodes every evening, I'm starting Saturday November, twelve, we're also wanting to the end of every sorry about what we call call it a action card or we give the hotline that people can give Simpson, but we also want to drive people to websites dot com which both Josh and I will be on quite frequently actually was on. It, derive conversation today and posted to Websleuths to continue that conversation. You know Josh,

recently called this show America's most wanted two. So we want to join that conversation to Websleuths and hopefully be able to source some additional clues, and nothing else continue to have these conversations happen. Absolutely. I want to congratulate you, both Josh Zeman, Ann and Rachel Mills, for the killing season again very powerful, important and gripping is not superlatives. For this. Thank you, but for coming on and talking about the killing season, now. Thank you so much for the talk. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Goodnight.

And now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah lisbie the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but the far appealing, Blobfish, come on to add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. The House of Roll journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life well, crafted welcome to the House of Rome.