“He could not stop what he was doing. It was either sex or suicide.”It’s often said that we will likely never understand how a person becomes a serial killer. However, I believe we can. In fact, we must, if we are ever going to find a way to stop the sexual abuse of children. But it’s not only the victims we want to save. We also want to stop our children from transforming themselves into killers.Arthur Gary Bishop and Westley Allan Dodd had many things in common. They were both psychopathic pedophiles and prolific child molesters who eventually turned to killing their victims. Both were executed for their crimes at their own request. Most importantly, both desperately wanted to know one thing before they died:How did I become a serial killer?This book is an attempt to answer that question. THE MIND OF A DEVIL: The Case of Arthur Gary Bishop and Westley Allan Dodd-Dr. Al Carlisle
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Blog talk, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. He could not stop, he was doing it was either sex or suicide. It's often said that we
likely never understand how a person becomes a serial killer. However, I believe we can. In fact we must, if we're ever going to find a way to stop the sexual abuse of children, but it's not the victims we want to save. We also Wanna, stop our children from transforming themselves into killers Arthur Garibay. Chip and Wesley Alan Dodd had many things in common. They were both psychopathic pedophiles and prolific child molester, who eventually turned to killing their victims both were executed for their crimes at their own request?. Most importantly, both desperately wanted to know one thing before they died. How I become a serial killer. This book is an attempt to answer that question. The book tour featuring the seeds. Is the mind of a devil. The case of Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley
Allen Dodd, with my special guest doctor, Al Carlisle Phd Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview doctor l, Carlisle Hi Dan. Yes, good evening, doctor welcome to the program. Okay! Yes, thank you glad. I got yes Thank you very much. Let's get right into this. We've got a lot to cover and this is a fantastic book. The audience is going to love This, I extremely enjoyed your about Bundy, and this is in the same vein, incredible incredible. Access that you had. You wait at the Utah State prison, engaging in research on violent inmates and the projects in actually again when you completed AC the logical assessment on TED Monday for the courts now use
stay in your book, you didn't want to speak with convicted child killer Arthur Gary Bishop. While you read this maximum facility at the Utah state, prison death row tell us how you came two change your mind and why yeah my whole career, the prison? Did various things in therapy research. A lot of you, valuations and I work primarily with violent people and to talk to a someone, who's, Clyde Violence say: a violent rapist is one thing but to talk to to somebody
kill. Children is totally another an when archbishop was sends to be executed. He yeah he came out and was on death row and I went out and met with him and said our dog from the side, cology department and if there's anything you want, let me know, and I anticipated they just say. I don't need anything. Thank you and then I would have walked away and say well, I did what I supposed to do and that's it, but he said two things he says. First of all, he wanted to die. For killing those kids and he actually had to fire his Kerr lawyers attorneys because they said they couldn't representing to too
by early and he had to hire a new set of attorneys who would and then, but he he got that approved by the court uh and the other thing he wanted. He Says I want to understand why I killed those kids. How did I get to that place in the first place? And so I thought boy? That's that's a good piece of research for all this stuff, I'm doing on by that's, and so that's we. I met with him about two to three times a month until this execution, then I was with him on the night he was executed. Yes, now in this research, you say that he sent you volumes of biographical data about him
biographical data about his childhood. Now, let's go back to home and I do yeah. Yes, As you do you go back to his childhood? Let's, let's go to his childhood when you say is born in nineteen. Fifty two in Hinckley, UT. Because you really get it from him. Really what went on because he as we've just men and he really wants to know how he became this person tell us about his early upbringing. What he had told you well, he came from an intact family. Both parents were fairly religious, Hinckley is a small town, very small town and his grandmother. Parents going on Father live close by and in a small town like that, you No everybody you have friends, you have family an. He remembers,
come home being out doing some things: a child his mother, would have hot rolled had been set out of the window, sealed a cool off and he could smell those need came in at a hard roll and honey and butter, and now all That so he was really fairly happy as a child. There was no no sexual abuse, no physical abuse now, so It started out fairly normal way. You talk about that. He had also sorry go ahead, but and he was religious, he went to church and was quite active.
And as he got into his team, he can you do get good grades, he L he started to develop an interest, no wasn't so much a sexual interest. It was more of a curiosity about boys and he found himself something akin to being a little turned off when turned on. When you would see boys, but he didn't have it e Desire at this point you know it desire group and I got very powerful over time.
If you got high drug couple, cool go ahead, no go ahead! Well, you got good grades in school, it was an eagle scout and he was a respected by white people. Now we find you did have somewhat of a temper. But the cause of that is basically unknown is just like a lot of kids get angry so, but basically it was a fairly normal you talk about the religion, though, that he did get involved with? Was the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints and we'll talk about
later about a mission. He goes through this very, very import. In his development will say now. You say that he also what I mention religion is that, because he had said to you. That there was a strong belief that you shouldn't have sex with a woman, a girl before Marriage- and this was a was a sin. So he did live in again comparative maybe now a fairly religious home with those kinds of ideas open to him, yeah
but there was an interesting twist to all of that he would be here. Is religious people preach that it's immoral to have sex before you get married? All of that, but nothing was said about it being wrong to have sex with the boy. Now, when you said that my thought would come on, are you got to be kidding yeah, not that dumb, but he insisted on that that, for some reason he came out with that interpretation. I it's wrong to have sex with a girl, but no one has said anything about a boy and therefore maybe it's Not that RON and hell to that all the way through and it's uh, weird God, men dad forgot.
He's a very intelligent young man to you that we talk about he's very successful in school business in an hour, Department, but you also talk about. I found interesting too, when you talk about the bad temper, but you say well, he was, he grew up kind of normal, but when he did have is you mentioned as you delve into this and got the entire report from him. Did he mention. A couple incidents with you put them in about a baby pigeons and his anger yeah and he's talk about that. But then we talk about later that anger. Increasing so maybe you could talk about this anger that he exhibits in the story tells about the pigeons uh. He didn't have a general desired hurt animals, but he saw the other kids
with their BB guns, shooting birds and other things, and so he at first he thought. Ok, that's that's wrong. I don't want to do that and but then he got angry at one time about something m. He chilson pigeons. He felt bad about it now later on. Later on. After his whole, sexual habits had built was extremely strong. He and he was living on his own in salt lake. He would get some puppies and he loved little puppies, but he get mad at Matt said pill on the floor. He would hit him and some he choked him to death and
and then you would cry afterwards and if somebody just beat to death and then he cried, then he missed dogs. So it go out. Give me another one, I This was a time when he had totally violated his belief about who he should be what he wanted to be in the future and so yeah. He is very cruel later on. You talk about this strong moral code that he believed to have, and then so he you talk about him, believing that he should pray to God for help because he kept talking about things being out control.
All of this is earlier on. He even felt that things were out of his control yeah. He was religious and he would go to church all the time and You know he became an eagle scout M and a lot of it was because his mother was quite religious and she was active in it search, and he always wanted to please his mother was very important to him. Am he started developing this desire for to see what kids would look like when they were naked and that and then you cut some,
self and say it doesn't want to do that? You shouldn't do that it, that's not who he is and all of that, but so trade, but nothing really changed. And, of course we can't blame God for that. I don't believe that it's nothing changed, but the thing he did not do and you can sort of understand this. He did never tell anyone. Hey I've got a problem. I've got. Problem, and I need help and it's to me a very strong principle is a person is controlled by the secret things that bother them. Certainly you talk about this challenge that he puts himself in. He is, with the latter day saints
They go on missions and he's picked to go on a mission and goes to the Philippines he's twenty one years old. This is nine. One thousand eight hundred and seventy one any already. Has these urges and he wants he thinks is sexy is out of control on his urges under control. Tell us about this trip and what is accomplished or not accomplished when he goes to the Philippines. What happens there okay in the LDS religion, if you want to is asked to go for two years at their own expense and they're sent somewhere to preach about the religion, and so the bishop approaches him as his art. How do you like to go on a mission and he's thinking? Yes, I want to be
because we're pleased my mom and yes I want to because maybe then I can get control over these urges it's starting to get out of hand and find myself sexually attracted to boys, and not girls and so he was hoping that by going on a mission that God then would take away those urges, and so he wouldn't have many more. So you want me to say more about the mission now sure what what happens I mean the lk absolutely so he goes to the Philippines and a missionaries within companions and they go out and visit people together and he's out there and he sees his naked boys and he's thinking. I'm not going to look at him, I'm going control. It is not going to get out of hand so.
He looks away and he doesn't look at and he's very proud of the fact that he is controlling it. Well he's there about a year and he's feeling good except he is beginning to feel lonely and he's big. We need to feel bored. You know the same heading over now go over game which is going out and make these people and converting them, and so up and this one day there's this little boy who is in the room and he's naked, and he sitting on a pot on the bathroom in a pot in that room with him front room and he finds himself getting turned on return turned on that it bothers him and then goes and he's taken a shower at night and he finds himself
climaxing in the shower and It's not that he wanted to 'cause he's trying not to the climax, is in the shower and Then you find this is one of the major turns in his whole life, because at that point he seemed very guilty and he's thinking. Although this is not the LDS belief, he's thinking That I repented- and God forgave me and I was doing well that was feeding his spirit and everything was good. Finance and now I do this and therefore I have send- and God will be
disappointed in me- and I won't have his spirit anymore and therefore all the repentance I've done over the last year has been done and he is very depressed about it and that that are of this next day of which is very soon. He tells his companion. You go visit the people today, I'm not feeling well, I'm good stay home, so the companion goes out and visit some families and he takes a bottle of pills, all of pills, aspen and he's laying there laying there thinking. So this is what it's like to die and he's feeding peace, because he's thinking all of my struggle
Will be over puke Samala and he's just very sick, and then he tells his mission president, that he he's depressed. He wants to go home and miss. You president calls a man and talks to him. The thing he doesn't. He doesn't tell the mission Pres anything about this sexual stuff All he says is I'm depressed and I'm missing home and I I would like to go home well, the Mission president touch to him and give him a blessing and when art walks out of that, he feels energized Susie Astic. He feels okay. I can do this, I can make it is going to be fine.
And he is then made a supervisor over some other missionaries. But art is not one who can really tell people what to do? You know he's passive And then that doesn't not work out so well, so he goes to another place, but he makes it to his second year. He comes home. And when he comes home now I returned missionary is highly respected. The ward members and other people that family and cousins, nibble and looks up to this person says wow. Here's the return missionary great he's been out there serving God for two years at his own expense than which,
The parents, it generally You'Ll- want to pay for this, and, and so he comes back and he's still feeding very disappointed and it he feels like he doesn't want to be active cell. He gets a job and the job. Is one where he works every other Sunday? You thinks okay, that's what I want to do out brilliant plan. Because that way, I won't have to go to church one day is in church, and why and the leaders come up to him and says art in Sunday school. This teacher didn't show up for the teacher, can't come and teach this Sunday school class for kids are about one thousand four hundred and fifteen years old. Could you take the class
And they were thinking well, you know return missionary can just step up and they've got lots to talk about, and they can step into that place do a great job. Well, he bombs it and he apologized to the kids thinking. You know. I can't do this anymore and so his feet, been extremely ashamed, and so he gets him a motorcycle with the money's making and drives around on it and one day picks up this kid and. Is he giving him a ride and he sexually fondle kit, and then he is really a shame that the self you tell the kids, please don't tell anyone that the is related to.
A lady who knows is arts, grandmother very well, and so in essence, you see I've gotta get outta here. I can't live this way, I'm not worthy of it, so he movies at SALT Lake and it goes to school, get his degree in accounting and does quite well in school, but he starts getting sexually involved. Eazy e he's living with Annette for awhile and he's fondling some of the her boys and and and
Then she wants to move out because he thinks ok, they're gonna tell and then we get to that the whole next section of his life. Where he's sexy interested in kids and he developed this technique, it's taking pictures of the genitals boys, and he has no interest in girls. He would like to get married and have kids, but he doesn't want to date. He has no interest in girls and what he's doing is is technique.
Keeps using this over and over again for years. The technique is to tell a kid that someone is, it is, has something on you and the art has to take pictures of the general told, because the person who is doing this has sexual desire for kids. So you said, look, let me just take a picture of your genitals and ascended. This guy not give you fifty bucks for it. I won't take your picture of your face. Yes, your general yeah, so the kids start saying: okay, no, no face no one to recognize me. Just that takes a pitcher, give kids fifty bucks and he gets some kids doing that, but what's happening the problem. Sexual problems just gets worse and worse and worse, then he he literally falls in love with a couple of young boys. It becomes very jealous in this set big heart of him and are also quickly dial.
Two la molested kill three boys less than a lot of kids, but Bart put six thousand dollars on down at home and he gets a nice bed and he has this one boy who is willing to come over and and just sleep with them: him and all of this and he's starting to get involved sexually involved with kids beyond just the picture, taking a lot of touching a lot of just mutual masturbation and things like that, and then he gets fearful of these kids are going to grow up and leaving. He is a very lonely kid at this time he cut off his family, and so they don't know just where he's at he goes and talks too
The bishop is ward in SALT Lake and he tells the picture up. He wants to be excommunicated from the church. The Bishop says why and it says, because I've then immoral with the girl. I am being immoral with a girl Anna, wanna get excommunicated and I asked him. Why aren't why you had such a strong belief in God before Why now? Are you just cutting everything off your family your religion, your deity, all of this, and he said I figured you find a member of the church. God expects a lot more of me, but if I'm not a member of the church, Scott will expect less of me and therefore, by the devil- and maybe I can get control of this.
So in essence sees cut up all of his support system. An only has is an accountant. He gets good. Jobs is very good talk, almost anyone into hiring him and he's good at what he does bookkeeping any embezzles money, because he wants to buy things for the kids needed, not make it enough. He wants to buy this kid a bike. He wants to bite this kid games and all of that stuff. So now he's embezzling and then he gets caught. Ah
and people find out about the kids and the kids, leave him and he's, but he's just very lonely. Very empty and now he's been picked up on an embezzlement charge and he said he embezzled. What's three thousand seven hundred and forty thousand dollars, son yeah he best a lot of money yeah and when you went to a halfway house, went to court in a halfway house. The judge. Looking at all of that says? Okay, here's a return, missionary been very active in the church and he's name, had been arrested, he's basically a good kid and therefore will put him on probation and and he goes to that. Halfway out Jimmy
the center and they finds that the guys really look down on anyone who spent a sex offender- and he begins to think. If I get picked up on his six charge, I'll go to prison and they'll write me they'll beat me up, they may kill me because I'm coming in on sex charge on a child, and so that prince is up to that point of the first time, a site. You talk about October 17th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine Alonso Daniels and uh he's working as a bookkeeper at a steel company, And so he is short on money. Like you say, for buying gifts, he's been already convicted of embezzlement, he's in therapy, for that embezzlement. And he's also supposed to tell us and he's also supposed to
those probation officer about any children he's not allowed around children, so tell us set up the situation where he comes into contact with Alonso Daniels October. One thousand nine hundred and seventy eight yeah yeah he's been a therapist. He had one therapist, he didn't carefully very much, but he got hurt
the therapist, and he really liked him- and this is a highly respected therapists in SALT Lake, and so he, like you going to him. But again he was talking about the embezzlement. He wasn't saying anything about desires for kids and he's working and one day he comes home for lunch, and he said one of these apartment complexes, where you have two apartments on the bottom, two on the top above them, and you have set of stairs that go up and add, go up into the upper apartment, so he's downstairs in his apartment and move Alonzo is out there and playing and art finds himself
getting turned on like the kid, and so he asked the kids that come in it says: hey. Would you like to? Would you like to come in and have it stay away, a kitchen that type of thing and so Alonso came in? And this you know I his post go back to work about one o'clock. You start with the boy the boy was sitting at the table and the boys started crying and got scared, and because he just knew that the kid was gonna call tell it's mom, and so he killed a KIA. Yes, the book I've tried to minimize just the way he did these things we all of he works very hard to reach. It's it's, I think, exceptionally good in so far as telling the details of how the person became this way is the killer
but it's hard to read because it's killing children so that he killed him and then here's the mom going out calling to the boy yeah I'm going up and down you know and and then that night he buries that takes a kid out. Berries in the see
getting very guilty. He feels the house is, haunted, has nightmares, and but he said something that was very interesting. He said that when he killed the boy, he said something left me and he pointed to his chest when he said that and is like and he equator to his conscience, and he said it just left me and after that I didn't have any difficulty killing. Kids, no and the flip side of that is. He really did.
And something interesting happened with a lunch so and then, with Kim the next one. It was felt when you kill them. He went in to sort of that date state you know almost like it was him It's like someone else, although I knew it was him, but then with the last ones. He help the reality and he couldn't escape the genial reality. Every scared you talk about when you talk. He is by now having an alias. At Lynn, Jones, Scott about security card and drivers license, there's a warrant out for so now he's
so he's disassociating literally in that way as well, and then, when he kills this Kim Peterson. It's interesting that Jess was it just gave gave a ride. I'd art gave Jess a ride home, he called to say he needed a ride. So cool and calm and able to be able to do these murders and adapt and then act normal with and then still. Have this relationship with these kids at the same time that he's gone much much further, yeah and that's, I think, Danny Davis you're talking about where Kim was the one who had some roller skates and uh art says: okay, what
let's go out, go heading out here and hope you might with demons and then Kim says you know I can't and you because art one sexually perform on him Kim says you know I can report you for this, and so you need to, start, give me money and then that's when our shot him and buried the body and said two 'cause, your lancer was right there as well, and he said to allow Okay. Here you have a friend. And then he went back and yeah Danny Davis. That was an interesting one, because little Danny within a store. With this grand father, I think you are a bit in salt lake and uh. And there's a lot of interesting things about this story. But Dan It happened to be alone, and art walked up to him and said two hundred play some toys. If you do come with me,
Walked out, and a boy had the following. Then you cut out the parking lot and grab the kids myself and another side, Colleges said the prison doctor, Allan Rowe. We were asked by the police to do hypnosis with some of the people who thought they might have seen the perpetrator walk on the store and it's interesting all the different store which we got you know, ok is it came out and he jumped in this car and drove off. You grab this kid and put him in the car and drove off. You know, and none of that happened But there are a lot of people who want to help and gave lots of different stories and whereas Bernard got the boy he went around the back and over across the street, then to his place and
Yeah- and you know what you really feel sorry sorry for the families of these kids. And he changed our changes name and he change. This identification. You know I asked him I said: well, how did you get another Jarvis lights and other social security, and he explain how you did it and there were people that he he guy Do it with pretty easily and decide to stay in salt lake because now had another name and uh a warrant without for his rest, I figured as long as he didn't do anything to get arrested, that they wouldn't know
you talk about this theory, part of it again very movie esque. He goes back to the store to get some snacks for the kids. Yeah and a four pardon me for his friends later after he kills Danny. And then sees one the employees talking to a police officer, and he asked well what's the what's going on and they said well, somebody is misplaced, a grandson, so you know pure pure example of evil, certainly yeah, and he feels real bad about that. He feels guilty, so he has to leave in art, felt guilty about these things over and over and over again and there's a quote. I have on him in the beginning of the book where he he says that.
When you get this. He says, even after witnessing the grief and pain I've caused still, my interval spots and desires, art for evil, the God of PET Ipedia, is captured my heart and no other desired seemed so real, strong insisted or pleasurable is this. I know the things I've done her sick and revolting to anyone who's normal. Yet I get inside. I feared that I would continue such atrocities given the opportunity? The compulsion to do so is too strong for me to promote the overcome. He said the worshipping prerogative. He was just like what should be that God and he knew that he could never stop. He also has one of the most disturbing quotes is that he to explain why he could continue. So
seemingly easel, even though he's remorseful when you spoke to him and all these guards we remarked is that he said you can only go to Hell once yeah yeah yeah it's not going to be any worse killing a second person because of that.
And he developed the capability. This is where the whole cycle pathic process comes in, developed the capability that when he started feeding guilt, he would put it out of his mind and if you felt guilty about having killed a kid, it start thinking about the next adventure, the next one and Wesley Dodds, who killed the three kids up the NW. He did the same thing and yes, that they create themselves as a cycle path rather than being born with it. Absolutely thank you talk about to that. This escalation and. Acceleration you talk about that. He wanted to next time.
Take the murder more memorable- and I think this is I've- read this quite a bit that It's never satisfying enough, and so, even though you say he's totally regretting, but they are planning and the sizing about things better than the last time, Wednesday, yes yeah, and what we've done is a good one is an example on this. One west dot started molesting kids, he was shot nature about fifteen years old and he was asked to babysit and he what the baby sit there was. I think two or three kids, when I was a boy and he did some sexual things with the boy and then when he came home he thought the next summer I've got
Make a list of everything I want to do because there are some things I forgot it is it's it's like he's saying. If I'm going to do something as dramatic powerful evil as this, if I I'm going to go that far then I might as well do everything I can and get everything I can out of it, or else I'm gonna regret. I didn't absolutely. Let's talk just briefly about there's another two murders, there's five murders in total yeah. How does he finally get arrested and what happens
that he, that police know the whereabouts and the details so quickly tell us about those circumstances when he was finally arrested? Ok, so he's he killed the child and then he waits little while and then he kills another child and waits for the cloud and then the last two months last two months, everything is falling apart, he's still working he's doing fine in his work that. He is noticing on on the one before um he's notice, saying that he's in reality. That is, he gets this one kid and he talked him into coming downstairs and he's thinking of setting up a.
Contraption down there with the kids would lay down and. He could chain him down and then sexually molest him and killing and he's thinking about having a cage or something down there to do that. So he gets this kid down there. Am he pulls out a gun points at the boy? boy and says I want you to lay down and put these handcuffs put around the pole and put him on and the kid talked him out of it, and then art feels bad. He cries, he hugs the kid he says. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry! Let's the kid go well.
The kid knows that family and he doesn't kill that boy and then he and a kid he's be printed from a single mother. He spent some time living with them a few months, they're going to go to California. That Disneyland am so. They planned the whole thing biggest kid come over, Graeme Cunningham, Becaus him and get him to come over it. So let's come over. Let's plan just some last details about so
we're going Saturday Morning and and the kid comes over and he blessed the kids and then he killed him and he's feeling bad about this. But come Saturday morning you know well, the mother calls calls you. Because the boy gram doesn't come home, I think the first thing like doesn't come home As she calls around says art, if you seen him while he was here, I gave him a form to fill out regarding medical things on the trip, and so he left. So she can't find him and the next day you can find him. She calls the police that can dream team at night because he's
just a missing boy, but the next day they start looking and Saturday morning. It comes in so Jeff an arc and Graham are the three of us supposed to go to California, Disneyland arts paying for all of this, and the gram, of course, is not there because he's deceased and so the mother, then that you help calling the place and and Graham know, Jess is the mother. Will state will say you know, because just really didn't want to go that much and that's why you wanna Gram to go because Jess and Graham, are good friends and so just said: hey I'll stay and I'll help. You look for it and the message says no. It's ok
Ok, you just you and art, you go ahead and go, and so they get Nard Cardnet go and periodically. Jess gets on the phone and calls back and see if you found him yet now, May have run away because he had threatened to run away once before an all the time are
is that they want to go to this restaurant artist been to before and he loves the food and he's thinking. Ok, this is the last time I'll be here and various things he keeps thinking. This is the last time I'll be doing. This seems like subconsciously, at least he knows it's over, and so it comes back and they stopped in in Beaver UT for the night, because they guard has a massive headache. Couldn't come back the next day and mother calls and said: hey when you get back to police, want to talk to you and you're back in the mother. Ask card about grammar turns out that art indicates, or it shows that he's the last person to have seen him and then the police come.
And they started terra gating, Heaven and there only king for the connection agree at this point. But after a bit. After some hours of this, and then art says to him, look I'll tell ya if you're promised to get me some help and of course detective bill says oh yeah Shirt will do that and he said like yeah, I killed him and isles. I put the body in the crick up the canyon and I also killed his other kids. I'll show you where I put the bodies of the first two and the others. I just want some help. Well,.
He showed him where the bodies were, and, of course they locked about you at two went to I got Nessa sales is a good good attorney and she was his attorney and but then he gets convicted and sent out to prison That's where I committed picture we're going to use this as an opportunity doctor AL to stop for a second to talk about Ziprecruiter. What is hiring could easier, more streamlined and less time consuming so when you're busy. You could still smart about the way you hire zip recruiter. You can put. Your jobs over one hundred of the web's leading job boards with just one click. So you can rest easy. Knowing your job is being seen by the right candidates, then Ziprecruiter puts it smart,
watching technology to work actively notifying avoid candidates about your job within minutes of posting, so you receive the best possible matches. That's why zip recruiter is different, unlike other hiring sites, zip. Recruiter doesn't depend on the right candidates. Finding you it finds them the wonder. Eighty percent of employers who post on Ziprecruiter, get a quality candidate through this right in just one day, and the easy to use zip recruiter dashboard. Let's you manage your hiring process from start to finish all in one place, zip recruiter! The smartest way to hire find out today, one zip recruiter has been used by growing businesses of all sizes and industries to find the most qualified job candidates with them. It results and right now
my listeners can post jobs on Ziprecruiter for free, that's right, free, just go to Ziprecruiter, dot com, slash, murder, that's Ziprecruiter, dot, com, slash murder, one more time to try for free, go to ziprecruiter dot com, slash murder. Now, doctor, let's talk about Wesley, our and God and yeah before we get into that, because we, I don't think we can go as far into the story as we did with Jerry Arthur, Arthur Gary Bishop. But let's talk, about some of the things the similarities in the Wesley phone case. When you talk about see early life of Wesley Allen, Dodd, it was different. So let's start right there with
Ashley, Allen, Dodd and his early upbringing and what was different one of the major things that seemed to have happened to West. He was the first child. There's a couple. You shoulder and a brother was born a year two after that assist was born. An the attention who was put on the brother and after W came to prison. His father visited him and said W.
When your brother was born, you just crawled into a corner and didn't come out and West said he had all the toys he wanted. Everything was great and doing a lot of things with cousins, but he never felt like he really belonged in the family Ann. He didn't start out. The art started out with the sexual attraction voice, Westin. He would get out bicycle when he was thirty teen to get an's bicycle and go for long rides and he came to this settling pond, and so he went step by step. He thought this is great and then he go out. There spend a lot of time go up there and you take off his clothes and sit there naked. Then he would walk at certain from this to that
to that naked. Then you get on the bike and ride naked and he building the little raft. You got on that, be out there naked and he thought this wonderful. This exciting someone came over the hill in the a car such I could just go right. This water and I'd be fine that he start being attracted to boys and girls. No, he didn't care. He wanted his sister, and some others to show themselves naked in that he would do the same and such and I like naked in the bed and dad says W. You gotta put your clothes on and it says, but dad you go to sleep naked. Why can I Ann
and then dad so damn it do it anyway and Westford then would cuss dad would sail for health. Thank God sake. Stop cussing said you're cussing was to be angry because dad can do it, but I can't anyway, so he sought developing an interest in that and the big turning point wealth. First of all, as eight as an early teen in this set junior high? He was small for his age. She was young, he and when the record going to shower it guides and make fun of only one guy says guy I'll give you some of mine and everybody laughed and was did noise. Talking about you know a girl say
Hey Westry epidermis is showing, and so he looked down series unzipped and she laughed laughed laughed M, so you know he he would just humiliated so kids, then boys, young or young or girls were something he really wanted. So one day he was standing up in his parents' bedroom corner room LE out the window street in front of him had kids coming from elementary school, and so one day when kids were coming down, he made sure there was no adults on the road. But there were no cars on the road. There was just a few kids and
he pulled down his pants and he exhibited himself out the curtain and kids laughed and one kid says: do it again? I did it again and someone actually went and got another kid to come back, and so this
is a big turning point because he found the kids really liked it and after about six weeks in the event exposed himself again and again and again after about six weeks, a cop came to the door didn't come in the cop says you have. A report has been that you, someone here, has exposed himself out of a window and west upstairs at thirteen years old he's upstairs listening this and the cop says. Well, there's no charges just can you kind of watch it and if it's going on, tell him to stop and and the elites in West up there thought this is one smart. Thirteen year old, the kids like it, the parents don't care the police, don't care, and so he decided he's gonna, keep doing it, talk about
one incident around the same time in seventh grade. One topic seemed to really fascinate him and he'd saw a film one day. Tell us about his experience. Looking at something regarding the Nazis yeah, he was fascinated by. It is fascinated by the dead bodies he saw. He was also fascinated by National Geographic, where he can see naked kids in some of the pictures that he became interested. And death and the six, and so he would go to the library and check out everything he could relative to the concert tration camps in the death thing is and would look at any films you can find,
and then around this time there was a time that he he and a friend of his in The house were watching, cartoons are member and somehow it got switched and there was a naked woman They are laying there and then it was switched off again is just an accidental thing in the Datka moment said: did you see that this was his wife thought? It was a guy because the breast for pre flat and the dad laughed and laughed and laughed and West felt very, very humiliated because in the desert you really don't know anything about sex that do you cell, but he found the kids that was his his release. His his enjoyment in life. So you talk about to another dramatic event. According to him at fifty
years of all fifteen years of age. His birthday is July Third, and is so and seventy six he as of about dad in the hospital. Tell us a little bit about this sort of. He said it all it is very important happened around the same time. Yeah is about fifteen years old, so member and dad mom. When you get it you, and they stay television and he's really angry about it, because his is birthday and and that attempt suicide is, in the spittle and he's angry. He says: well, they really screwed up my birthday and dad couldn't even kill himself right and so yeah. He has a lot of bitterness. This happy he just eat, seemed to
I've been to a guy who never really did have any compassion. You know if there was ever a person who fit the true meaning of cycle path from a child on S. West died, and that was the difference between Wesson ART, because art kept feeding Gilley and he would put it out his mind and go on doing it, but w never felt guilty, but he kept getting caught and he would spend some time in jail, and so he decided then the only way he is going to be able to keep doing. It is to kill a kid and so he's working at a construction site in this little kid is there and he's gonna. Take this kid up and killing, but some workers common, see him and West takes,
pick him up and question him. But a very fascinating thing in all of this is W. Has this big collection of pornography and he's only interested in kids and he's living with a friend who has a girlfriend there and the mother. But let me with the mother and a daughter comes, and so Wes is with this daughter pulling and she comes in. Is there long? She says W. You mind if I lay on a sleeping bag in your room and his yeah sure, and she comes and climbs in bed with him and this his first experience with sex and she's kind.
Doing next day when he goes to work. She walked him out the car and she kisses him Ann and Him is absolutely wonderful because they get talking about having a relationship, and he says, says wow now I could be a family man, and so he actually gets rid of his pronography. But then she disappears and she's gone for about a year and then she comes back. Ann, she has a little boy and she tells him in the process of all. Of this will be more big. She tells him that this is his child and he is a static. It things well, I now can.
The Father and I have a child and I have a wife and we have family and all of this and that's when she said uh. This is wonderful. We're going to do this, but we need to move down to Yakima, because I've got friends down there and the girl's mother. Was there with them so one night they did W quit his job and they go down The acraman stay in a motel and the funds run out his funds after about a week, and at that point then.
The girl in the mother go out with night w stays back, takes care of the kids and they're all dressed up and he figured well. Maybe there prostitutes or something, but that's, ok, because we need the money. The next morning the girls boyfriend prior boyfriend comes in
taking the kids will never see your son again Ed, he is devastated, so the kids are gone. Colleen's, gun and Wes calls his dad said that I want to come home as dances. Okay come on, and so he has enough money to buy. Well, he he sell some tools and bites enough gas to get all of his mother. His father and stepmother now they're going to go on vacation for a week end process. You know each trite statements before and it didn't do anything and self, but this time you sync it up again, and so he says Satan. If I kill kids and I dedicate their souls, do you would you give me some kids to kill and it in the process? Well as before he gets up to his parents. He picks up the check. Credit tracker starts talking about child and such and he's thinking. Well, this must be sign the devil. These can. That we do this yes, so you sides of
ok. He he writes out about it: a multipage contract, the Satan and Sciences signs in his blood Ann. Then he starts planning on killing, kids and and uh labor day. One thousand nine hundred and eighty nine. Is when he goes to well. It goes to park a few days before he scouts it out me makes maps of it, but his objective is just to see if he can kill a kid 'cause he's thinking. If he can, then he'll have sex slaves, you'll, kidnap, kids and uh. He can't find the ones he wants, because there, with someone with their parents with too many kids are jeweled, and then these two boys come it.
The near boys and he so he used this technique. Hey kids come with me generally, it's one of. Let me show you some baby birds that I can only take you wanted out of time because it might scare him this time. He says: ok, kids, come with me, I want you do something. So it goes up. This other path gets marked, decides he kills the kids and it bothers him because he blacks out, and he can't remember something she did and so, but then within uh you get a month. He kidnapped. The boy now
West, like guard, had a couple of kids. He fell in love with and Wes has a kid. He filmed couple kids. He fell in love with, and so he's extremely lonely and he kidnaps the boy Ann. He takes him to his place in less the boy, and then they go to a store buy. Some things may go to a God and buy some food and boy is playing on the playground. Equipment and west is talking to the kids, father and feeling very much like a father and takes the boy back the apartment and what is coming morning. He knows he can't just leave the kids because his landlady might come so he decides is gonna, kill a kid and he does and and come back
Good afternoon and eight hundred he takes care of the body, but then it within a month he tried to kidnap another kid out of there show house and the kid gets away and then then, about a week he tries it in another show house, and
it gets away so he's get crimes in his vehicle. He's driving up gets out several blocks in the vehicle breaks down of is a trucker carpet. It breaks down beside the road, please come along. They know him from prior arrests and problems with kids and so and they have a description and so they're interrogating him regarding trying to kidnap these kids yeah after a couple hours. You know this story is one of the cops that day and wanted to get kids west. What would you do if your us, it is said, I'll, go search, my apartment, that is books because he's got the details in his diary journal of having killed the two boys have been killed. All three he's got pictures of this last one.
And uh his body and such and so w things. Ok, I've done it now and he confesses, and then he ends up in prison on death row and he wanted to die young. When I saw him on tv in an interview and wrote to him and says would you be willing to tell me your story. He said yeah and you wrote me up that point, which is about September, eighty, eight He wrote me out about two hundred pages of his biography is light describing every detail of everything and send it to me, and he said at one time he says the the court has approved
The early execution- so I don't have long to do this, so we're going to have to hurry so we can get it done because I want. I want people to understand and to help it so that other kids won't be kidnapped or killed. You know, and so I saw him up until December- Wild ninety one yeah. Ok, I was wrong on the first day that by December. And uh in a couple weeks after that, by three weeks he was killed. He was killed by hanging. Any what I said, but lethal injection is a better, more humane way to go in a sense I don't want to. I want to die by hanging, because this last boy,
in order for my landlady, not the same. It was strapped around him and hung up on hooks in the closet, and he says I don't deserve to die any better than how he did, and so he was hunt. You write about and you include a he wrote a pencil in prison when you a stranger or other bad people. Just briefly, what's the list of that, and what was his purpose of that with this? Well, I think I think, there's a couple purposes of what he said he was doing. He says I want people to understand and in essence what he saying there is hey. If a stranger approaches you run, don't talk to him if someone tries to do,
something touch you wrong. Tell your parents tell a please tell someone and so on one hand he saying I want to write this and even sketches uh some pictures in it. I want to write this so that it can help protect kids, And I remember one time when we were talking think about the hair afterward? I was interviewing him he's talking about God and he just got tears in his eyes. You know- and someone reported after that, this test he believes in God, and he asked for forgiveness. So you know we do get that
the theater baby just appear, but I think so one thing is, I want to protect. Kids is what you're saying, but the other thing he seemed to be saying. If you writes this and gets it out, people won't think you such a bad guy, they'll. Think there's something good about him. Sure. So, there's something genuine and something funny about it. Which interesting, too, is that in both these cases, what he saying with This is that you should do this and you should this victim should do this runaway. Somebody tries to touch you because if anyone would he did that in both of these those cases that would have helped them immensely people of the time and people still do suffer from diabetes, and
a real innocent time or less innocent time. Absolutely if, when W God exhibited himself from the second story window, if the first some of the kids had to run off and got the police got their parents, it had come back and if the police had a question where they had to take him down the station, it says okay, happening, you were you're. The only one who could have done is because you're, the only one who is home time and so forth and so forth, help because West kept getting away with stuff
yeah. There was a time is on probation and he's in therapy, and he can't be with kids that can't have kiss in the home, and yet he's got this child in the home that he's molesting and when the probation officer comes to check on him unexpected. It just happens that the mother of the child took the boy I did that day before that morning. It just seems so when Base Napster king. Yes, no kid, and now you know he just kept getting white one. This big thing wes- and you see this with with sex offenders, often with special child molesters personal. When they give
this may confess. Ok, I did this this this this and I want help. But what w gloated about- and I didn't tell him about the other kids on the last- it no and he seemed so sincere. So. Cooperative that the judge and everyone else thought ok. This really is is a good kid he's a good kid who just has a sexual problem and we can get him some therapy and that will help and then we haven't damaged his law. Life and we've kept society safe, but in reality, if they come away from the interview thinking, the person speaking is asking me about. It's only has half the information
Well, look how wonderful that I got away with the other half. I gotta say doctor Carlisle to that the difference I think, I know some somewhat of Wesley Allen, Dodd Red Book and some of the things that have said, but I do know anything about Arthur Gary Bishop, but I would say in comparing both of them. Maybe you can take on this. You say The idea that somebody would want to be executed is rare. Somebody would want to find out why they did something, and you say that in the one case with Bishop that these people were guards Experian,
guards. Thought man we've never seen anybody this remorseful this remorseful between the difference between Bishop and DOT. What I thought was interesting, too, is when he talks about when, when God talks about pact with Satan, pardon me. There seems to be a much different sort of mindset in the end There see, like you say there seems to be some ulterior motive for him to show remorse. Rather then Bishop seems to be again, not giving him too much credit at all. There seems to be much more genuine remorse. Is there? Did you know that difference between these two people in
early in that regard, yeah very much so I think which holds up one of the reasons for wanting to be executed. Do you read that that an appeals over and over and over again for one thousand and twelve years before they finally get executed. Is their life is the kids? That's all I've got so when they get in prison. They don't have. More and so they're lonely if depressed. Their hated by everyone there, if not-
death row there on protection and to them. It's like. Ok, why keep living when they're very saying that is my entire life is gone, but with Bishop I think he felt more guild and when he was in prison he would put earphones on and live to whatever he could share. There's a religious station in the listen to that and he asked me for some religious music- and I gave him some of that and that he was executed. He had the Bible, the scripture
right there and, as we talk in the evening, knowing that you're not and hours so he's going to be executed, he's going to die. He wanted to talk about his mission and you want to talk about God and he knew that he was not going to be forgiven of that totally. He just know he says I can't get what I could have got in the hereafter because of what I've done, and he says that thing that bothers me most is having to face those
It's a new year after, whereas with west DOT, he had a lady and she had a son who establish a relationship and would come out and see, and I think it was a prison a couple years before I got executed, but yeah and the boy like with some, but she wrote a letter to the President United States Please don't kill my father, you know stepfather, please. I need him no, but I don't think that God ever felt that guilty about what he did. You never talked about saying again to me. It was just a thing that came up and it's like I'm so desperate to have kids
I'll do anything and the Satan is a possibility I'll try that, even though it's a second time, you tried it, it seemed to work this time, but it's not like you, worship, Satan after that, he didn't know anything about Satan or about any of that. You do talk. I was just going to ask you something very, very interesting. I want to ask you about this 'cause. This is. Disturbing and incredible, you talk about that. He prayed. Not expecting to have any guy Sort sore help from Satan, but he figured he might as well and he figured if he was going to pray. He muzzle prey on the holy day on the Christian Holy Day, which would be a Sunday and he prayed to be able to three children. How many children did he kill? Ok, the way that came up. He was playing a game, and in this game it seemed like his solitaire
he's playing it and he says they now want you to tell me how many kids you'll give me that's where he came up with the tree. And then on the holy day. That's when he did the contract signed. It is blood and all of that- and he thought this is good because it's supposed to be God's day and I'm worshiping Satan. No, so that's how we came up with the number three and he did kill the three kids and he said, as I was talking to him, he figured then that Satan had actually given him what he asked for, and he never seemed to
leave that that the souls of the kids were the same, so he didn't really know anything about savings or about the ceremonies or any of that it was just cheap. This is working and uh, but very disturbing. Now in comparison and comparing both of these and you've studied more than these serial killers. What do, you think, is a common theme. We talked about humiliation at a young age and that being traumatic, tell us, the similarities in some regards When I use that example, where you saw similarities between these two very, very prolific and profound child killers,.
What similar between them and also with serial killers lot of people very you're lonely when they're young they don't fit in they there. They start fantasizing and there's a difference between fantasy and daydream. Fantasies is deeper and when these guys get Ben aside, you know art bishop, when the police searched his apt. Four hundred pictures of naked kids and most of the pictures were just of the genitals. You know- and I said part White: why did you have to have four hundred pictures and the.
But if it was just getting the kids to decide that be willing to have the picture taken. So a lot of it was just the interaction with the kid itself, but they are lonely. They start getting sexually turned on and then they don't be it's a secret. They can hide it. They don't have to give it up and they get into all of the masturbation with it, and then that starts. We can Connecting them with this and by the time they are fifteen there into it to such a point that is going to be hard for them to get out of it and so w dot art bishop both had that who is archbishop. He wanted to change it with w dot. He didn't Westside was how I'm happy with that,
Sorry, how important was the fear once they realize they were arrested in that fear of imprisonment and further arrests? How important was in their decision to kill well with w going to jail multiple times and but you would be given a longer sentence to just spend a very short time in there. Now it's different now it's quite different that the laws have changed, but with w that was quite he killed because he didn't want stop molesting. And in essence he wanted it's family, there's a family of kids who would worship yeah with that archbishop. He didn't want to kill kids. He had no desire to ever do that and with a lot
so when he had him in his place and he felt he had to kill a kid otherwise Alonzo's going to go screaming his mother will be arrested, he'll go to prison and after that he could find a good reason not to he thought
I can only go to hell once and to kill. More kids is not going to matter, but then it gradually got to a mini fell apart, more and more and more till he literally said himself up at the end to get killed, but so with art, Bishop, the first one was more of an accidents in anything and with dog he planted. In fact he would try to desensitize to the thought of killing you kids to see. If you could do it now, this project these this, these interviews and this book. How long did it take you to put this together, and this is incredible result. This research just tell us when this.
Is done and how long this took you to put this mind of the devil together hum the actual writing didn't take long collecting the information didn't take long, because the only reason I wrote it is because I had the information, and I had seen another book in print. You talked about the psychology step by step of how a person becomes a child killer. So I thought I've got this information. I really don't want to write a book on it because who's going to read it who's, going to read about someone who months it killed kids, and so I just sat on her for the longest time and after I got the first TED Bundy book done. I
but I've got this information I might as well write it, and yes, any police departments or universities or anyone wants to understand at least it's in print, and so it probably took six months to year the most to actually right that. I want to congratulate you on a incredible piece of work and a great read. A fantastic read the mind of a devil in the case of Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley Allen, Dodd Doctor Carlisle want to thank you. How much doctor Carlisle do you have a facebook.
Page or you do the have a website. You might want to look at other work yeah. They just go to Al Dot, Carlisle on Facebook and I'll pull me up or violent mind and I'll pull me up yeah, and anyone who wants to contact me and ask me any questions: I've got my email on there and their freedom all right or whatever and I'll be happy to talk to anybody about this. Absolutely thank you very much doctor Carlisle. It's been a pleasure hope to talk to you again. Real soon have a great night. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Goodnight goodnight.
Hi, it's Jamie progresses number. One number two employee leave a message at the Hi Jamie. It's you Jamie, don't be alarmed, but I think there's a guy following you. Maybe we should get that guard dog. We talked about nothing too scary. Maybe like a bichon with an attitude you know progressive collision insurance covers injured dogs and cats and no extra cost so weak. The guy stood up when I stood up he's on the phone he's looking right at me. It's just my reflection, don't tell about this progressive casualty. Insurance company NFL expect coverage not available in New Hampshire in North Carolina high. It's Jamie Progressives number one. Two employee leave a message at the high Jamie. It's you Jamie, don't be alarmed, but I think there's a guy following you. Maybe we should get that guard dog. We talked about nothing too scary, maybe like a b Shawn with an attitude you know progressives collision insurance covers injured dogs and cats and no extra cost so wait. The guy stood up. When I stood up he's on the phone he's looking right at me, it's just my reflection, don't tell
about this progressive casualty, insurance company affiliates pet coverage not available in New Hampshire in North Carolina
Transcript generated on 2019-10-19.