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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. Within the pages of the trail of TED Bundy, digging up the under old stories you'll. Hear the voices, many for the first time of some of TED Bundy's friends as they bring to lie

the secrets of what it was like to know him while he was actively involved in murder. The stories of Victims are here as well as told by their friends in having the information and anecdotes that didn't make into the investigative files and are being published here for the first time to the former, actors who work with author Kevin Sullivan during the writing of widely acclaimed book the Bundy murders return to aid readers and fully understanding, Bundys murderous Karere. It's ripple effect impact on those who came into contact with him. In one way or another- and this Ellen commonly held Miss the trail of ten Buddy is a journey back in time to when TED Bundy was killing young women and girls in the Pacific, Northwest and beyond. It's. By my who knew him, and you hear the revealing stories, many being voiced inputs to print for the very first time, the friends with it more here as well, and they to share their insights about the victims and some of

what they tell here had been held back from the investigators such was their commitment to their deceased friends. It's also the story of those who huh at Bundy those who guarded him and those who otherwise were a part of this strange case, one way or another. The book you are featuring this evening- is the trail of TED Bundy digging up the untold stories with much special gas journalist and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program and thing for agreeing to this interview. Kevin Sullivan. Well, thank you and for having me back, and I knew you were going to have me back on after I completed this good to see that it's going to print and I'm ready to talk about it. What's always a pleasure talking to you and always exciting for the audience to hear anything. About the very fascinating, TED, Bundy and also very fascinating, Kevin Sullivan. So, let's talk about we,

talk about it in in your intro. So just us. Why, after doing what exhaustive in the most comprehensive. I guess story about TED Bundy, the most complete story to date about TED Bundy with the Bundy murders. And I know you talk about how someone co author had asked about a possibility of writing about something just a couple years ago, and you said no So why? Why now? And why yeah? The writing of the Bundy murders was a two one slash two year marathon, it literally was a day and night thing there. There there There were no days off and night- and it was two one slash two years and so once I was finished whether that was is this in the book? exhausted physically and emotionally from being in that world, as it were a and once I was free

and it went in the publication I slowly kind of like returned about. Self and I was able to go on the other things and of course the case stays with Maine Another day goes by. I don't think about the victims. By Bundy and and Everything that happened is that happens with a lot of is that I write an it happens with a lot of writers, but I could bang out the Kiesel article they go on a radio program like I'm doing here tonight, and that was ok, but I saw but I would never write any any other books about Bundy or go back into what I call that dark world. True a couple of years ago, another author ask Maine the co author, a book on Possible murders he may have been involved with, but the time, the very thought of doing that really turned me off, and I said the loss of I just can't do that so yeah I mean I thought it over for awhile, but I told person. No, I was going to pass on it. I just didn't want to do it and

and that's the way it it remained for the last couple of years, but last bring up was on the phone with somebody, and I can't say who the person is, but they are closely connected to the Bundy case and they've been having some significant medical problems and I got to thinking about and that and the voices that are still out there that maybe haven't contributed as much to the bus, the saga as it were, and I thought to myself. You know it's been forty one years since all of this happened, If I ever want to record any more voices about this very infamous case. Oh, I need to do it now, and I think that was the impetus which was, of course speaking to this per And so with that, I started down the journey and it was exactly like with the Bundy murders Because- have to re, write a biography of TED Bundy,

or follow him closely on his trail of murder. But it was going to be seeking out those who knew him. Those who do the victims consulting the case files again talking to some of the investigators again and just for posterity, because as a historian, it's very important to Maine to gab Are these voices together and get them in print because one all these voices will be silent and then that's it. You can't gain anything from them. So when I be gay in the book, I thought you know here I go again. I got to find out. I got. I got gotta locate, people who have either never talked before or haven't been printed before, or have basically stayed away from the case, and- and I didn't know how fortunate I would be in finding- people, but I ended up being pretty fortunate and there was some people help me along the way, locate some people and

for other people that I didn't think I would find. But after doing investigations, I was able to find them and the great thing about it is- is that most of the people that I talk to talk with Maine and open up and some were opening up for the very first time. So it was. I never expected to write another book about money, but as soon as I decided to do this book and record voices, that had never been recorded before and get their stories in the print it had, great feel to it, and I knew I was on the right path and then, when I started discovering all these people- and they started talking to me- I thought yet. This was the right right decision, and so that was really the the genesis of this book. Now you start off in chapter one in January, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four new focus on the Washington state murders and

and we talk about the mo- and you talk a little bit about Bundy's you know early I've been and, as is other the other family members. Now he was out of wedlock, foreign out of wedlock and Phil Delphia. But let's talk about as you do in January, 19th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four, the TED Bundy's MO In Seattle, nice area in the Seattle area, with the murder, so as you talk about, for shopper. Let's talk about that, okay, Monday was a meticulous planner of murder and he was never better at murder. Then we He was in Washington State, and that was for a couple of reasons. He knew the area well and he knew where he wanted to have body dumps and. He didn't leave anything to chance later his career by the time you

you get the Florida he's a mess he's very sloppy, but in wash to state and even again in Utah and as branch out from there. He planned murder very well. His mo was one of he was a not just a careful planner of order, but sometimes he would seize an opportunity uh if he saw it and it was, there Many of his murders occurred Becaus because he went hunting for victims. Sometimes they occur because they just happen to look. For example, if you a girl, Hitchhiking Bundy, had a standard way of killing his victims and- There were a number of women that he was wack in the head, with a crowbar wants to three times he wanted her unconscious, but he didn't want her dead. And when he wanted a woman unconscious, he wanted to be able to do so,

really what he wanted to do with her and then strangle her while he's having sex with her and and he would kill her in that manner during those murders- and there were a number just like that- he was isn't concerned about her interacting with him. Okay, and so that's what he wanted. There were. Sometimes As with the women at Lake Sammamish members Into these NAS one, Nelson was gotten in the afternoon, but in the morning he had gotten from Lake Sammamish I thought he had kept her somewhere sexually attacked. Her kept her tied up kept her alive all afternoon. And then he went back to the lake before four hundred pm and he was able, I think, Bob at four hundred and twenty to convinced in east now

I'd love to go with him. I some rules. He just made up some excuse and traktor. She got in his car and left and she was taken to wear. Janice was the two women saw each other terrified, just terror, beyond description and, of course, he sexually solves math, and then we don't know which one, but he kills one. Front of the other and, of course even before anybody was dead that that that was the place was filled for these women knew that they weren't going to get out of this. I'm sure but once he had killed one in front of the other he enjoyed the fact he drank it in it was like fuel to him that the other person sought he met her to see it and her terror must have been just on imaginable and he enjoyed that. But there were times he wanted to kill a woman. He didn't longer to feel terror and there were sometimes he wanted that

all victims. He wanted them to know everything going on so the demo, but the ammo basically stayed about the same, and that would be choking choking a woman to death while he's having intercourse with her from behind either anal or vaginal, and so that the muscle as there is the editor expiring or tightening up their muscles, which would include Regina, and you know that that's the kind of person that we're dealing ok, so he liked it and then of course he loved necrophilia. So if he had time he would stay with them and have additional six acts, sometimes with a hitchhiker that he picked up on all way to law school, in Idaho, he probably had sex with her after he knocked her out a time or strangled her to death and then maybe had you know additional sex with her, but you split, her body into the river, and that was it, but sometimes they Bundy plan of the body.

He could either go back and visit the body or in the case of Washington State even back in Washington state. He admitted kill bill, hey, he had as many as four heads in his apartment at the Rogers rooming House on 12Th Avenue is Seattle, I think twelve northeast. I can't remember the exact exact address, but at one time- and of course you know, people need to understand. Doesn't Becaus. He just wanted to view these heads ok and put lipstick on him. He was obviously using these heads for all sex the demented diabolic individual that we're talking about, but even with any of them all it could very a little bit and it wasn't until Bmo really change with the killing of lead coal. In poker. Tellow, Idaho and May of seventy where he change

a little bit, so you could say that bodies that have all stayed almost almost the same. There would be some differences in that, but for, for example, women just to throw this since we're talking about them when he and forever, if everybody, the people listening now the Bundy case at all. They know who Caryl Ranch is Carol, Carol, Carol, Daronch was kidnapped from the fashion, place, mall Bobby took her to a about a block and a half away. Stop the place called the Middle School and she had to fight him to get

from and she's the only person that ever go away? She said she saw, he had a crowbar, she could feel it use party, but she also said the other personal that night now the prosecutors, the the prosecuting attorneys out there and they told me that they they were. You don't think that Bobby had one, but there is that possibility. He had a pistol. So if you did have a pencil on that night, if you did, that would be a look at that. I think that would be. A significant change in his mo because except picking up a twenty two rifle when he was on the run at that cabin in Colorado after his first escape, except having a gun at that time. There is no mention of a firearm anywhere Bundy doesn't mention it, but, like I say, if you did have a pistol in Utah, at least on that night. That would have changed at MO just a little bit anyway. It gives you an idea what was TED Bundy doing in his alter light,

at that same time and washing you say, he's very prolific and he's as good as he ever gets in terms of serial murder and he's a very good serial murderer. Right was his alter life really like at that time? Well, hey. It said that Warranty I like to say that his launch in the murder have when, in January of nineteen seventy four and that that he probably killed in seventy three, we don't know, I even think he may have killed Ann Marie Burr back in sixty one, but we know he launched in the murder a full unabated murder where he wasn't. Gonna come back from it in January of nineteen. Seventy for well prior to that time, in seventy three Bundy was, you know he was. He was working with the republican party. He was, you know he

was rubbing shoulders with some of the political elites there he was dating. This can, so she has a daughter, he was preparing for law, school and so you know he was conducting. Self in a normal professional fashion, and that was the mass now. The interesting thing is there may have been a time in and here's despite these things on the inside of and what I call in the bunny murders. These dark emissaries like circling just like a cloud over him or something is that he I'd have thought that maybe I can pull this off. Maybe I could be the lawyer. Maybe I can you know, governor of Washington. Maybe I can do this. Despite all these things going on of what I really want to do, and so there might have been a back and forth within TED Bundy by January, of seventy four.

He had already internally wave goodbye to that and when he is fact that one woman that he didn't kill, which people, identifier, is Johnny, lent uh where he attacked her, in the U district about two or three weeks, I don't have the exact date before he attacked. When they're really, but he didn't killer. He thought he was going to, but but he didn't do it, but he locked himself that now from that moment on, but he still went about his is business. He would you know he would go to law school for that here at the University of Puget Sound, he would still do some political stuff, but as the murders increase that year I noticed in the record that his attendance at These political rallies started to fall off and like there was a call

being held in Laurelhurst, I think in June I have to go back. Check, my book, the Bunny Mars, but I think this caucus was in Laurelhurst Washington in June of seventy four and he missed it, and it said in the record- and I put this in the book- the second delegate, a lady named Helen West, had to take his place. So by then not only was the missing things. I don't even think he was contacting people and say look. I just can't do this anymore, so he was emotionally cutting his ties with everything that was normal in his life. That's why one thousand nine hundred and seventy four, even if he killed before then that's why one thousand nine hundred and seventy four is so significant isba cause he launch himself into this this world of murder, and he was not going to stop for any reason until he was captured or killed. So it's basically

and he was leading a normal life apparently, but the life that could not be seen by his friends and his co workers was that of a guy murderer and the only people who ever saw that where the women who were captured by it. So you talk about from Washington. State January to September eleven women. Why did Is he from Washington? What's the impetus for him to move from Washington State? this place that he knows real wellness is popular and successful hunting around what makes a move sure he. You know: Bundy came to realize overtime that he was going to drive himself out of every area where he was killing women. He he decided to leave. Washington and go to Utah to the

Utah School of LAW in the fall of seventy four, not by the fall of seventy four. There was a red hot manhunt in the Pacific Northwest, for this killer of women. You gotta understand that serial murder occurs in an area. It's not always recognize that serial murder, until certain patterns emerge and when Patterns emerge in Washington State and They culminated at Lake Sammamish up until Lake Sammamish, which is July 14th one thousand nine hundred and seventy four I about time they had and uh missing women, women that vanished nobody wanted to come out and say the girl I've been murdered and the dead cops of course suspected this people

Is it but they didn't want to believe it, but once Lake Sammamish occured, where a guy named TED driving the Volkswagen at lower two girls away and they and and they're just they're gone, it was a whole different ball game and every and the in the manhunt got very very extensive out there, and so True, he want to go to law. School What he really wanted was a new killing ground, and I believe the reason why I chose Utah Tall is because his girlfriend lives candle, and I use her last name. It's actually closer or something like that, but that's the name she chose for her book. The fan branch, so I mean I also honor. That, Michael is Kendall she's from Utah, and so you know she would Home this year. Folks, here we go with her, he got there, that area fairly. Well, we're moving to Utah, wasn't like just

moving somewhere, that he didn't have any knowledge up, but here's the thing about Utah when he got the Utah, he was like a kid in the candy store because he was, he was becoming a very Very good murder, he was having a lot of luck and he was very disciplined and he was He was as good as what he was doing and he only attended school at the law school that does the mat first semester, three times classes the rest. Time was spent hunting and killing, and even though he didn't have normal body dumps like he did in Washington State, he would put these women at various places and he would dump them any kicked it up. A notch in Utah, Because in Utah he was bringing some of his victims, and this takes this takes this takes colonnades, but

and there's a lot of things he did, but he took the victims apartment on the second floor, at five hundred and sixty five first Ave and kept them in there for and uh birthdays. Probably they were in a Akala to state, but nevertheless they were still breathing and then he had the kill them and slip them out, but uh who. But when he got to your call there was no man hot, but if you'll notice, after a bunch of girls, start you'll disappearing and then summer for murder in Utah, like a you know. Smith and Milana and Amy there's does well. I made this place hot. Just like Washington State I've gotta go somewhere else. So what does he do? on January seventy five. He has to Colorado and he starts sobbing at the ski

so yet again he's going to an area that is a neighboring state, but thus far hadn't had any missing or murdered women, and then they start dying over there. So that was his them. So it's so when he finally made it to Florida, and turn Tallahassee upside down by killing two at CHI Omega, an attacking Cheryl Tom they're done with the apartment. What do do you get in the so in Van and he goes to Jacksonville to get away from Tallahassee, so bon He was always getting away from what he had created to go somewhere else to find victims. He never friendly buying Jacksonville. He almost everybody did came back in his last murder was committed in Lake City twelve year old, Kim Leach, but that's why he did it

he was a very mobile killer and and of necessity that he loves to drive anyway. He love that role, but of necessity he had to change location, Becaus, of how hot these manhunts got in these you know respective states. What's fascinating is his dissension. When he goes like you say you talk about Colorado newbie. You demonstrate that with all these aces in the precision and the charm that he had yes did And so by the time he gets there, aspen though, by the time he gets the Colorado he is not a suave, a he's standing in the cold without any ski apparel. He seems comes out of place. And then by the time he gets to Florida, people describe him as creepy and greasy. So, let's just talk about a little bit by the time he gets to Colorado how things have changed

things are always a little bit similar with him but changed by the time. He gets a colorado. Well, not not having warm clothes and hunting at the ski resort was a mistake because he stood out and, as I say in the book- and I I also cover this in the first book, there was a woman name, is harder. Who saw this strange man, and you know he he just had pants on. Are you standing back out of the light near a service closet the elevator opens and- and she sees them and of course soon after that, you know? He got Karen Campbell now. That was a mistake because he should have but You know. I have something warm on, so we could blend in that said, he hadn't descended at that point. He was still. He was still very. You know able to get women to leave with him and

what happened was and of course, I've been there, and I know how it works when you're walking those outside walk ways. You could see every being around you, but but something that Bundy noticed and he took advantage of- was that in the you know, I want to say close to zero. Whether the heated pool on the outside people would swim. Even in January, and that cool would have so much steam wafting up from the surface of the pool that very often you couldn't be in a call. So it's also like in the evening you couldn't see who's walking along. Sometimes on the second floor outside walkway, you couldn't even see sometimes people pass on the little walkways around the pool, because there's that much steam book that Bundy would not have missed that, but so he is true, he was, he wasn't dressed in warm clothing, but he was so what I would call a mature

It was planner of murder. Even then Where you see the real meltdown is in Florida, but but Cala Rado. He was still the kind of person and see the difference is. Is that in Florida that charm had left him? In fact in Florida women got a creepy feeling around him. I mean like he was given all these vibes and nobody wanted to be around him. I say in my book the Bundy murders that when he Couldn'T- and this was unthinkable it back and watch stadium in Utah, you got to women then went well he's attractive young guys, articulate yeah. Let's talk, I'm going to be real. See that's the way it was not in Florida. He walks up to people to this go right across from Kyle Megan, Florida and uh, this guys creeping them out.

There was a woman who told detectives later we were open, he wouldn't come up to us. He had this weird look into that, so that kind of a killer, this wall, killer the the the the killer that is really really on target was gone from him and that's why say in the book the Bunny Murs. He left. He couldn't get the conscious women to leave with him, so he attacked the unconscious. Women at CHI Omega those, ladies that were asleep. So that's where you see the real me and that go into great detail about all the things that that that were evidence of the meltdown at Bundy was honest Trailer park Florida in being that Colorado thing and you know if you've been there, you have to be there. There's a lot of ski resorts and how he ended up at this particular resort. At that particular place, it's just it's all a matter of chance and 'cause the play Scott Scott stuff all over there. So yeah just for an interesting and you know

say this in the Bundy murders, if this woman that he that he led away willingly to a parking lot in this is had to have happened. Any muscle away later at the parking lot. For example, she was a nurse from Michigan. She was there with her boyfriend. Doctor Raymond is asking his two kids And then there's another doctor, a friend there that that was there, the kids wanted to She had to go up to her room to get a magazine, so she could switch the magazine with this other doctor. That was with them. The kids wanted to go with her now. Just think of this just to think What is engine on life and death? She said no sts stay with your father. Have the kids gone? with her Monday, would have had no choice. To leave her alone. She had gone to a room, got the magazine gone Back down the elevator with the kids gone downstairs,

And she and ramen Gadowsky would probably married today watching tv right now. As we talk you see, a girl was by are self care. By so that's why I say in my book. Sometimes it's it's a matter of chance just chance that these things happen, so whatever Bundy did he convince her don't know the ruse don't know whether he I don't see probably probably see you some other excuse, he might not have pulled the policeman thing on there. I don't know we don't know, but he do some ruse and got her to walk to one of the parking lots and probably the one that even we use right next door off to the right 'cause, that's the closest area to it and, and then that was it and like Fisher when he was doing his investigation. He came to Conclusion no one who did this and why his mo was that whoever got Karen Campbell.

Had her uh you John Kerry willingly to go with him at least to the parking lot, and so and he was right about that so anyway, but he he was still a and on target killer in in Colorado, but he sure stood out to a little bit harder. The sad thing about this is the harder didn't even tell Fisher the first time a year later, when he came back to interview a doctor. Again He said we need to go talk to MRS harder was over and and order new new, this doctor, because she said she saw this strange Brandon with Fisher got there and and talked to, and then you know, a shopper see some pictures sure so the burger store she identified so interesting and Fisher could have had that information a year earlier, but she along to it. I don't know why you talk about chance. Let's talk about

the huge error that happen, in Colorado, the facilitated him getting down to Florida SK being twice in Colorado. Let's talk about the escapes and how it possibly could have had and- and it's so movie ask the last. Cape so give us the details, how it could happen. Yeah sure, it does well, you know. Well, I guess I can just say this that it thank you for people. Don't surprise me they just don't. I mean it's like if you're a clear thinking person you just have a sense of what you should do in situations, specially. If there is the possibility of danger, I mean there's just search. Ways, you need to conduct yourself in life but, as you know, when the audience knows we run into people all the time that we think are clueless.

When that happens, when you run in the clueless people who will watching lethal killers, that can be a problem. So when TED, Bundy was delivered by Michael Fisher and two and three of his guys. To the jail in the aspen courthouse. You know At that time they eat. He warned them. You warned them what a risk. This man was now the aspen courthouse house jail in the courthouse I mean they. They deal with drunks bad check, writers, people that got into various problems.

They didn't usually have somebody like Bundy, but he made it abundantly clear that this man is not just going to stand trial for the abduction and murder of Karen Campbell, but he is suspected of killing women in Utah and Washington state. You can't turn your back on. It well turned on. The charm did did what he always does turn on the charm. Not really friendly with Everybody everybody kinda liked him. You know, and up in the courthouse used to go in and do research in the Wall Library because having some law school under his belt, he worked. You know with the attorneys that that help them and he had you civil library at the time the they used to keep in the springtime the top window open. So you could get a breeze.

Right now. If you stand in front of the courthouse I mentioned in the book, it it looks, it looks it looks like it would be something to jump out of it. When you're standing on the ground floor 'cause he jumped out. If you ever see a picture of it, it's at the top left window second floor window. If you go up into that room it, and now it's a court, it's not the library it is it's a court, but they still have a lot of the library books on the wall, and you can you. Look out that window and boy that it's a daunting drop. It's really is it's it's something I mean you look at it from up there. I'm surprised, he didn't break his leg. He did injure the leg again Disney a little bit but and sometimes was recaptured. Five. Six days later, it was very swollen but It's a very high drop well anyway, so he gets out this window. He sprints in a way they don't know is gone yet, comes in there and says: hey, there's a guy, just just just jumped out

went on it at all, my god it was not Bundy. The body gets. You He goes down by the I think it's a red gorgeous something I can't remember the Red River Gorge, it's something and it's and then he take golf and he gets into the wilds of Colorado and he's gotta make it a he's trying to make it to Crested Butte These are trying to go over the mountain and he spends a lot of time going in circles. He ends up getting a cabin and he ends up, doesn't even know what he's doing. He's losing a lot of weight, he's becoming delirious easy just what the jail Couldn't do the wilds of Colorado was doing and it it it was corralling them eternally. Comes back. He thinks he somewhere else. He steals a car either add driver anyway, he's weaving this car. Please see him he's they think he's a drunk, stop. They find out the persons out drunk it's just TED Bundy.

He's arrested, okay, put in leg irons. Now he gets Ferd late. Now you think that's a wake up. Call you think no gala wake up call. Stupidity still reigns in the minds of some people. He gets transferred to do the other jail uh. I think it's a Garfield County jail and they put him in a cell where there's a light fixture, it's a fairly good size. It needed to be welded. But the sheriff and the people in charge determined that there's no way he could get up through there, but just check this out again Michael Fisher warned them Jerry Thompson warns Everybody is warning them if this gets, the guy gets out, he's going to kill again you, mark is out, women will die. So they do they didn't weld it not just check this at this almost sounds like fiction

The inmates in the jail work- telling the authorities we hear TED Bundy, who will be up above us at night, he's trying to fig the other way to escape. We hear him moving all about above us and then he goes back to his cell and they they don't do anything about it. He gets out the second time he slips down. Into a jailers apartment changes. Clothes he's got like seven hundred dollars on him from people who in Washington State and perhaps you to almost have it, came Washington State who believe that he was innocent. He had this cash on him. That's all Seven hundred dollars, I mean in today's money, probably, five hundred dollars and so so he use that money to escape the solar car, but that broke down. He hitched a ride with a soldier to Denver call of Flight Chicago took a train to Ann Arbor,

and from Ann Arbor stayed a few days. One of the Go to the university setting you love to kill women at at. He was so comfortable with the university setting, so he found in trying to find a school on the Oceanfront school in Florida and he couldn't so. He decided to take Florida State, university and and then he stole a car came down through Louisville Doppler Morning, head breakfast on Jeff St Uncle Hank's pancake a cottage on down to Atlanta dump the car picked up, a Trailways bus took that too to Tallahassee and then got it went on College Ave Ann got a room as Chris Hagen a past himself off as a lot like a graduate student because he was older than and so so That's how it happened. So these women that were two women Kyle, Megaan kevel each these people should be alive today, the

only reason, they're dead is because of the jailers in Colorado. There is no other reason they're only dead because they didn't do their job, so some people lost their jobs. But the women in Florida. These women lost their lives, two women and young girl. So there you so that was stupid parks a lot and it's just unbelievable, but two times he got away from Colorado. Well, but the TED's credit he is a diabolical. Mastermind. If there is any kind type archetype could use in the movie. There will be a TED Bundy movie and I'll be a blockbuster. No doubt I mean the guy looks like great caneer. He really does it He looks like all american like break near the actor. You know, but anyway, I wanted to talk. I wanted to talk about this information. It's not so well known that it and you've painted of vivid portrayal of it. When you talk about his

rampage Starting January 14th in Florida when he goes and starts looking for victims, but he's now this creepy guy so January, 14th Eagles hunting, Jenny every 15th, he has to outdo himself from the day he abducted two women. At the same time, he is his crimes of escalated and he's more desperate and the stories are looking form so describe as you do in the book January, fourteen is unsuccessful, hunting trip and then the very we're flying January 15th and a special. I want to talk about the show tomix when Thomas when he gets the duplex and and her friend Debbie Cicerelli. Basically saves her life. So let's go back to January 14th in Florida. Well, if you're talking about the that had to do with the Kyle. May I don't know if you know that the CHI omega occur,

on the same night as as the as the attack on Debbie, it they both pass right on the same night yeah. They did that's right now on the on the fourth on the fourteenth. You know he. They may believe that the murders that in a car until that time in Florida, Intel by date when he attacked all three people now on the fourteenth I can't remember what what are you drawing from exactly because I can't remember anything from that period of the 14th, so you have to refresh my memory. What happens is he's just he's been there only a couple weeks. And he he basically The is is having some problems with lure. And people anywhere so he's striking out with the kinds of things that the rules is, that he did beef More people are, are

hesitant to do anything with them. So, like you say he has to resort to people that are sleeping. He fa means. Sorority house just is just down the street yeah. He know he's creeps in there. You find he cases off the place earlier. Make sure that the doors are unlocked, then those in there and well all attacks were people killing you, ok, ok, you're, talking like Iomega, yes, yes, that night at CHI Omega the sure rods or share it. I don't know exactly how you pronounce it, but but that is that it's gone now, but that is right next door to to omega and Their work, some chi girls in there that night, There was a lot of people, it was like. I mean coming from all over but was in there. So that's one of the people that I mean

one place where a number of these girls later came the detectives and said: look there was this weird guy and they describe him to a tee and of course you. You know that was funny now when you and there one woman reported that I can't remember, because this isn't in the new book is in the bunny murders it might have. Around midnight or one am make, maybe around midnight. One of the came out from from the from this to Sharad. And somebody called out to her: are you cryo, chi omega? She no, he said well you're lucky help me level, that's probably Bundy, probably him, because he we already determined that he was going to attack. The women in CHI Omega now I don't think he had at the door and found it open,

because I know he did that when he attacked when Dan Healy, when he followed them home from Dante's in Washington, state to her place in the rooming house that she living with a girl? He did try the door, it was unlocked. It came back later and attack them, but. Sliding door which had a lock at keypad, lock on the outside some times they would shut it really well and next girl coming in without to use the keypad and some They would not shut so well and you could slide it open and what happened was one of these girls must have just let the kind of open and- and he got in that way. What is interesting about CHI Omega is that it was a a frenzy, it was not Cmo of what the years like you know had, and he just different. He went in there and he you know he

Gotten a log from from around the and he went in there, and I mean he was bashing this woman in the head and he would have sex with someone. He would write them. The one girl. I guess I think it was LISA, leaving he better in the block and uh, so it it was just a frenzy. Killing and no one would think after that is done and he's had his jacket. Nations, maybe two three who knows and he's killed them and he's he's satiated that but he's not satiated and he take this is unbelievable. He keeps the bloody blog and a lot of that bark on that log had already gone off the thing you smash them as such for yes, that that had that bark had flown all over the room, but he takes this loggan. He walks just a few blocks to dunwoodie and there's a guide,

I've been back, can't remember his name to that. I name in the book I think, is a asian ball, but he sees this guy and what drove them to all he. He looks like he's trying to conceal something any yes, that's body trying to conceal the log, but but these were like a pea coat and like I, cap on his head, and so that's what they reported. You know I should mention this at I was leaving that that horrific scene he was seen by a girl who did he didn't see She was standing back out of the light. He came down the steps you have to speak hold on his hat. He had the law his hand and he went out the door. Ok. Well. This guy saw him dressed that way holding something to aside, and he could tell him he's trying to conceal it. So he took that same log to dunwoodie by the time. He,

the dunwoodie. You know he can already hear the sirens going off. Okay and are heading to CHI Omega, and you think. Well I I guess I better go home for the night, but no he wasn't satiated. So you know this is duplex and he gets into this He comes through the window of Cheryl, Thomas and Debbie. Cicarelli or whatever name is next door and she here's some noise over there and sounds like to Her- is like somebody crying bring or something, and then she hear some like banging stuff. So you know she's, probably from the wall. She's calling out sure she even called her on the phone. Well Bundy. Of course he had every intention of you know having intercourse with her, raping her

you're, Analy or vaginal e and then strangling her, but he couldn't do it because this girl next door kept creating all these problems. So he masterbated and you know that was found on the bed and he left the log at the scene and he got himself together and went out the window and from that moment on, he went back to his apartment and it's. A college rooming house, basically an everybody's up, and you know he comes back and he again he's not the refined killer of nineteen. Seventy four one thousand nine hundred and seventy People speak to him from rooming house, and he he can barely respond, he's like in a daze, and so you know so so that was it now there and then, of course, after that there is this intense in in Tallahassee. You got. You got two people said you got another two seriously injured.

And attacked in the middle of the night as they slept. So that's when he then goes the likes it Jacksonville, couldn't get anybody there and then comes back to Lake City and then kills Kim Leach, which happens to be his last murder anyway, but, like I say, the new book, I written. Then I you know I I go into various things, especially going like, for instance, for the new book. I found a guy named Gary Matthews who interesting Lee made the run the CHI omega and dealt with. I think he said he got what Karen jammer I'd have to check the book and and another one and then after an hour he made the run to show Thomas, is on Dunwoody and if it doesn't get and then it gets more surreal after Bundys captured. And then Bundy plays his own attorney in one of the upcoming trials. He calls on

this guy, who has to give a deposition, 'cause bunnies, acting like his own attorney and the guy said he just looked at funny and they thought why you know just thought to himself why CHI omega. You know why dunwoodie yeah, but anyway so yeah, but it was a whore it was chi. Omega was turned upside down. When I was at two thousand eight, you know I I didn't go inside, but but I took pictures of the front in the back and they were doing extensive remodeling and they had a lot of doors propped up a lot of woodworking torn out and the doors looking vintage 1970s. So that might have been the they have remodeled be outside over the years, but that might have been the first inner remodeling that they've done but but anyway so yeah. But it's still there. It's still the Yo Kai Omega Authority has that's a

nice about your book to you, traveled the the route and got field in the pipe, for the horror that happened once upon a time and then lot of these places still remain a lot. The same. Look if not exactly the same, what Pretty close, so you were able to go there and take some great photos in your included in there. You also talk about which is an exclusive to is that you, which was hard to get, was when Bundy you had his variances with the Mormon faith in Utah in SALT Lake City and some of the frame, is that he got as he entered to try to enter into this seriously enter into this LDS church of Latter Day saints so tell us Larry Anderson and a couple of the other people that you met and what you discovered from those interviews with those people and bodies. Like your sure. Well, it was very interesting there there there's a fair

a photograph of Bundy and a woman drying dishes in at a party, it's one of the Q, photographs you'll ever see a buddy outside of a courthouse or a jail or something like that. There just aren't a lot of pictures. I mean you'll, see a couple pulled around from his was Kendall Base, but there's a picture of this real. You know pretty you know a blonde woman and he stand there doing the dishes, whether it's what I call an iconic photograph Well, that woman was a woman named Carol Bartholomew and I was able to track down. Caroll and she was kind enough- two talk with Maine and open up to me and she sent me an extensive email as to what her life was how she knew TED. How that photograph came about, and I got the whole story in there and she talks about John home.

And Larry Anderson. They were a part of that how's that for guys lived in and why- I'm, the guy who took that photograph was a fellow named wind, Bartholome and Carol ended up marrying when and they having a number of children and they grandchildren and he became a a well respected attorney in Utah and he just passed away in twenty thirteen the car was extremely nice and I sent her my book, the Bundy murders, and so she is very kind opened up to me. So then, when told me about Anderson and John Homer I thought perhaps they might want like to talk to me and ultimately they did and they are two very nice fella. And they carried a of information with them about this. Their dealings with TED and the stuff that they told Maine, I've never read about any other

place, and I know that that they haven't much about it. I don't think any of this information is ever been in principle and it's just very interesting. Could you get to see the other? So This is one of the most interesting things. Is that bond either? ask him to go skiing in Colorado and like January or early winter of nineteen seventy five and they were set to go on the particular date date. Or in jail. Another weird, I'm not sure if he knows went, but he did say we were going to Vail now. Avail is where one of the ended up Julie, Cunningham, but whether available at that time or not, we don't because, when he pulled up to the curb to pick where pick up Mary had all the ski equipment at the curb at his place, ready to go on this trip that bun. Ask him to go on. Bundy, pulls up and says. Do you mind if I go along, he said We need some alone time,

which means I need to murder somebody, but the course Larry doesn't know this and I'm sure Larry was aghast be cause. He's got all skier. Go back, he's ready to go and he's not like he's calling from his apartment ai can't go, he pulls up as if he's going, and so, I just want to go all, and so he takes his. You know he does and on the go so sold. So that's coincided you know with with with you know, you know one of the murders we just don't know which one, but I thought that was very enlightening, and so you know that that that needs I kept thinking as I heard the story that need and Bundy that, at churning need to kill, must have been rising up and he probably thought there himself thought to himself You know I can go with Larian Ski and I'm all out not to be able to think about 'cause. I want to go over and kill these woman. I can so it's better to cancel with him. 'cause I'm

if it probably would have been at any other time, Monday but he wanted to kill he felt like he needed to kill an off. He went by himself and of course you know, I'm sure it surprise. You know Larry, I'm sure he thought it was rude, but Lairy had a close relationship. And he introduced into a lot of women in the church and and even said they double dated on occasion So we got to know the man very well, so it was very good, like I say it These stories are being recorded for the first time, but you have in the book two is very interesting for Bundy files and for people that, want to know more details about this fascinating killer and you have MIKE Fisher and Matt. Well. I believe in Florida now explain to us why the most in your mind,

what was the most credible confession from Bundy about his murders and why is it the most readable what was the motivator? What was the motivation for Monday to tell the truth now and then tell us how we told the truth in this third person sort of fashion right. He had made her confession before you know. I think what he told Michelle yeah conversations with a killer. I think you're getting a lot of good information there, but when it came time, but when he wouldn't name names- and he wouldn't talk about everything- SP when it came time like, for example, when he was dealing with some of his some of the psychiatrist and some of the other people Anne. Just occasionally he would say something.

And it they wouldn't match, is end of life confession. So, in my opinion, I mean I know I'm right about this, but in my opinion, the most trusted confessions or his end of life confessions right at the end, when he had to talk to the detectives from the respective states that had missing and murdered women, he had to clear up cases. He had the name names he had to give details and he. Did so, and you know he called MIKE Fisher uh before my pressure went down to Florida and MIKE said, look I'm not going to come down there and listen to some bs. Are you telling things in the third You're going to have to come clean, you're going to have to you, know: you're you're, you're you're,

but I'm not going to come down and just looking to talk about something out of the third person. Well, he did come clean and that's why they are the most trust. For example. What I'm doing the research on the book my first book, the Bundy murders I I was able to get the transcript of the Idaho investigator and body confessed to the murder of not just Lynette Culver from Bogota hello but from the hitch. I he picked up on his way to law school in September of nineteen? Seventy four! Now they you know that Bonnie gives great detail how that happened. He picked up a hitchhiker and he picked her up just just on the outskirts of Boise. Well, he directly names. As of the end of white confession, the three

you're over there down eighty four for three or four hours- and he said- that at the time you know all for in the it went back and forth and Was I in the river off till like his left and he pulled off and went down some road and that's where he? He probably like the girl in the head. He grabbed the crowbar from behind whacked in the head and took her your body down the river had sex for a single slid, the body into the water. Well for some reason: now that's a transcript at the end of life, trance For some reason he told one of these other people, and it appears in in you know, one of the books.

That he was riding through the hills of Idaho looking for a hitchhiker, and they did this and did that and it doesn't match up at all at all with what I said at the end of life confession: now you can't the people that were listening and wrote it down. I think, by the lack of that now why he would do that. I don't know that's why I say in the book. Is it possible there could have been a second article hitchhiker? I don't think so, but you guys have possibility, but I don't think so. So the end of white concessions are the most trusted the most trusted. You know the Bundy murders was published in two thousand and nine. I finished it in July of two thousand and eight. I never did get to hear the transcripts of Dennis Couch. The detective I couldn't. I couldn't locate them last year Dennis Couch

of those tapes and they're all over the internet. Now to a tv station in your Utah, and you can hear it and chill. Even in that you know, I I knew he took MIKE Fisher said that he believes he's the one that told me. He believed that Bundy took a couple of the victims up to his is rooming House MIKE thought he kept them in the utility closet. Myself. No Bundy would have carried him upstairs. He would have. I just know he would have no way it's gonna keep it I've been there. He would have kept them in the utility cause. I just don't think that well in this thing of tapes of couch, when he's talking about the abduction of of baby cat, he admits there. He carried her up to his apartment and this will be his apartment in five hundred and sixty five first Ave. So you know it's just strange to hear that. After all these,

I knew that he had Debbie. He had to have had either in his apartment or in his car. It is odd because you know he kids and after I guess, a little after one thousand and ten, twenty, I can't remember the exact from the high school. She went to the parking lot, but he was calling Liz an hour or so later, just an hour or so later and there's no way he didn't have her with him, either in the car or up in his apartment, when he tells caps that he took her up to his apartment and he said he killed her, like I thank the tapes of like the next day or or something or what I can't remember, but he did make the admitting taking her up there, so it

in any event, it was very odd hearing that after all these years, 'cause that's one tape. I had never heard now. You also talk about this, confession? He was also very kind of angered that the the two officers, the two investigators, were not responding to his please What he thought was in a reasonable thing that he would give information and that people like himself that and you describe it, as I guess, sarcastically a malady in that he would be studied and that it was. It was value to law enforcement, because we in touch on in your book. But it is of part of the fictional mythology and we're going to get to the myths of that have been debunked in this. As well, the TED Bundy

was offering advice to law enforcement. He was a very articulate guy. None of these people liked had really existed in terms of been studied by anybody before Robert K, Wrestler John Douglas, and these guys at the FBI. So he really was like a a valuable commodity. It seemed if you were to be able to write all the truth. All they did about bunch brain scans on him and all kinds of physical and mental test and see there was anything out of the ordinary, physically or fizz, logically about TED Bundy. Was there any value to what Bundy was saying in terms being studied, or was it it was merit to what he had said? Well, here's the thing about Bundy to remember this You know Bundy could have been locked today. He was offered a plea if he would cop to the murders in Florida. They'd give him life imprisonment,

but then he left without natural causes, probably not that you get great medical care in prison. He he would be there now, okay, so so so you know he blew that that he was fighting for his life now Monday. Here's the thing about killers like buddy- and this is an absolute fact about Bundy the man like money kills. It is metaphorically those people, but He owns. He knows what happened to him. He owns the process by which they died. You got understand by these to be there used to love the fact when the air stop coming out of their mouth. Breathing their last. He look at their fingernails or they were turned. That is what they call I give to. So I am not a q as as the fingernails Toronto, he loved that he loved it. He wouldn't miss it for anything. They consider all that stuff say: cool

any consider. It is the only reason why he gave up the information he gave up was Becaus. He saw the green, the the reaper coming for him any wanted to stop it now state of house somewhere and not pull into there. There's a great dance either up you might have given them some information, very arrogant man and again he only started giving real and verifiable information, he was trying to save his life. And yeah sure. He got angry at that and a lot of these people. Okay, but you know that's just way. It is. He was dishing it out. He was very petrified of dying court time. He died there. That's all a myth that they had to be dragged out of the cell and he walked.

He walked down there. You know he sat down in the Electric chair Don patching. I know Don He came in there and he was lead detective on the case down there. That day on, it had a was invite by the governor. I have lunch. He cancelled that because somebody said you want to come see. You know Buddy get put to death. He said yes, I do so as he walked in there, but the way this hand, at him very calm and you know he would not certain people but yeah, I'm sure by then he was just guy. He knew that was it, but when he was fighting for his life, he was willing to talk, so if they help him somewhere chances, are he we would have glammed up. He would never. Even giving information. There were things he was never going to talk about when Bob Kapple ask him. No, he finally got your hand Hawkins place. You know up enough

what where he killed her away from her sorority house kill the around one am ok, but he stayed with her until about five hundred asking what happened between those hours course apple knows he was playing with her. He was having sex with her. He was doing all kinds of stuff He wouldn't talk about it. He said will have to he used to have a phrase, but we you know if we have time we'll get back to that I'm getting back to it. He didn't want to admit that he was having sex with a dead body with Georgann's dead body. He did admit the Temple he he did enjoy. Sign Audi Q, see all the fingernails of the dead woman. There was something to do with that, but there were other things he just wouldn't talk about, and that goes also for the killing of you. Girls, as I say in the Bundy murders, slaughtering coeds, is accept. Apparently it is mine, but if you start killing them too,

young, I don't know. That's off limits, I can talk about it, keeping him alive after that. You might not have gotten anything, it just be a. You know if you have been a lot of probably would, even if you even bother seeing and I'll tell you why I have a short fuse for people. People around probably would ruin the meeting by saying something. Stupid maybe becoming angry? I got the truth from the record and from the investigators and from everybody involved, a lot of people in Florida said here's how you nobody's lying he's moving his lips. I don't know how yeah I really I don't know how advantageously it is for people to uh, view and get anything from him, except fact, except I think in the third person he shot pretty straight too uh Q and Steve Michelle and with who

homes was dealing with him, the criminologist from Louisville. I think he shots straight with homes too, but a lot of people could come in at all. I don't know I like. I say I don't think straight with everybody, necessarily that was trying to help and did tell doctor are normally at the end. He did admit to killing a couple woman in New Jersey when he was back e, but he kept shut mouth to everybody else. I see it. You almost have to catch Bundy at the right time. Sometimes it get anything from him. Mike Fisher said you gotta get him. When he's exhausted, you can't wait till he gets rested. He told the Florida people you've got to get information from him while he's exhausted. If you wait until he's rested your clam up, he won't talk and that's what he did.

Briefly, what we part of give a nod to the late, great and rule who just passed away last year and she wrote an incredible book, the stranger beside me, but again Monday is an incredible character and not everything about Monday was in there and it really, I think, for all the people that read stranger beside me, like myself, with We weren't aware of the necrophile aspect of TED Bundy Shirley was more than round played in there now include some letters that aren't so alarming or shocking, but you include them they're very interesting. Letters that rule now, given that he told the truth to certain people well that certainly makes a lot of sense. He worked had a suicide hotline with Ann Rule and he responded with her right to the very end, and you include some of those letters how much of this of the truth,

Did he tell Ann rule? Well, here's the thing I'm sorry that I never got to meet and rule, and I would also like to have met the other fellow Larson who wrote the deliberate stranger but by the time I did my research. You have passed all I could ever locate rule what now what makes rules? What good is that it's, world book- is a biography of Bundy or the case It is it's her relationship with Bundy and that's what makes that book. So it's so interesting and she is later by the they work together. But you know as crisis, you know counselors, you know he corresponded with her. They were together a time she she came down to Florida. So, but that's what makes that book unique, because it's her story with him. And I wouldn't call it like a biography like man or like the

you know living witness, but but that's what makes her book special anyway now rule talks about The only place I use anything in my book. Bunny merge for rule is that in a police record it talks about when Bunny came back to Washington after he was out on bail and it was getting in since nineteen. Seventy six and he was getting ready to stand trial for kids in a garage come January. It's one! Seventy five! from January. He would be standing trial. Was there any and he has one day he has lunch with her and at the end I think it's uh french restaurant down. And he's being tailed by the cops and I know-

so that in and rule book I think she said they met the two hours and I point this out in the book, but I think the Seattle PD says three so there's a discrepancy there. I don't know who's right, but I gable stories, but rule meant Is it in her book? She said that Bundy chose to sit with his back. They must've been a boot, instead of looking her in the eye in the eyes he he had his back to her and he would like talk off, and I think that was intentional that he would look her in the eye, and this was noticed by Ann Rule, so she might have thought he a little bit of lying. You know he was being a little bit kg weather, and so but she know that's what she said in the book that he just looks straight ahead, so that might have been a tip off the and rule still. So Andrew, which is like anybody else. She took along for her to believe that he could really be capable of these things. So, but basically the connection there and I'm sorry did I miss a question you had about that about and

or or or not a single one reference that for for those people and all the the you know, it was interesting with and rule. I interviewed her in two thousand five. She was gracious enough and I was doing a radio show that wasn't specifically true crime but I had the opportunity to interview her about Bundy and the stranger me siamese interesting is that she did believe in his innocence, or at least in blue. He was guilty one or the other right on right to the very end and when she said she did, she ran the core, my believe and and vomited in the washroom. Yes at the at the sort of of the idea that yes, this and that she shared that she shared so many things with information with that. She had a get introduced for young daughter to the two at Bundy and considered him a friend and vice versa, and yeah so just end and

is more even more interesting. While they were working out that suicide hotline she being a former. Police officer was doing some writing with the detective magazines and she just got a publishing deal when If this and it was running around killing women's cotton yeah he handed and it right to be the person she was working with at night and so incredible beginning of anyone's career in true crime, especially when you're dealing with the infamous TED Bundy. Well that true and yeah, it's associate hurt that bad, vocal, be unique, and yeah and yeah it's it's something, and but you know what I think rule was a friend to him, but I question how what your friend Bundy was the her money. There's so much into using people is so much into using people

but it was a shock to her as it was to many people that he turned out to be the killer, because He wore that mask of sanity, so well around her around you know everybody that he was wet. Well, yeah, it's it's a it's strange, Genpact cheek. I thought about her a number of times and still out when I was out Pacific, West West Seattle area, I'm going over these sites and Like I say in the book, I knew she had been in the hospital z3. You know. That's all that unusual, but I didn't know she was that sick and after my wife and I returned the Louisville week or so later we heard you passed away so yeah, it's a shame, but anyway yeah it's interesting. She she did. She. She stuff for her to believe that and that's understandable, let's go two, because we don't have a boat ten minutes left and I wanted to get to a couple of the biggest myths

our surrounding that surround TED, Miss pardon me TED Bundy Mythology in said: ok, there's two miss in that part of the reason why TED Bundy became the monster it became is because he didn't know that his mother was actually what he thought. It was a Cyst it was actually his mother and who he thought his parents were act. His grandparents and the second myth is least we can talk about that, is that the re and he chose. Victims was because they looked like a girlfriend. It's spurned him early on. She wanted them back back, but it was too late and his victim the was related to the part in her hair and the looks and the comparison with the, round or darker hair with his girlfriend. So let's first tackle Miss One and miss two and what you discovered in both of your books, but especially the trailer TED

any regarding these myths yeah well, that really is a myth that he didn't find out. Until he was much older about his mother. You know it's it's weird. That that was ever believe by him as a little boy his mother was a sister. His grandparents were his parents, but that was straightened out when he was a kid and I don't know how it got there. But it was straightened out. I have found nothing in the record that says it went It really was an adult. Now, here's what is in the record. He had significant rage, Becaus, he was illegitimate and he never knew his father. That much is certain. However, if you look to the fracturing of his purse, banality you got to go back to when he was a little boy. This is this is this. Is he was so little

little thing, maybe three years old or something like that when he took these kitchen knives and we stuck them in the bed around his aunt under the covers with the points for facing towards towards the body, and she woke up and saw him doing this now. That speaks of something really off kilter, that's something really psychologically off that a boy would do that and you know, and so something happened to his personality. There is some type of fracturing not going to be caused because we thought his mother the sister and that was cute cured early, but even as an adult man when he was interviewed, by the probation and parole officer after he. Is convicted in the Carol Daronch CASE, and this probation and parole officer interviewed him to make this report and he asked about his father. He said that his

face got red and became contorted. Can you Imagine that and it took him almost to calm down, and then he hear response in something, of course, in the book. But it's something like well. You could say that he he left my mother and me and never returned, but that rage that came out of him, somebody can be very sorry. They didn't know their father. Most people don't have that he's a grown man and this rage comes up any that's the lancer revealed. So that's that was there It had nothing to do. I can't find it in the record where he believe that that foolish thing about his mother being his sister and all that stuff grant it's been apparent that was fixed when he was little boy and I'm sorry what was the second thing again well. The second part was the idea that

you know. Everybody knows this the story. Basically, that was the the girlfriend with great expectations. He was wealthy and and beautiful, and he was she thought he was weak and a loser, and so then, when he did achieve in her mind the things that he respected and she respected cheese seem to want him back and at that point He said no and people attribute that point in time and that fact that event is and they link it all to subsequent murders and that cause and effect okay yeah. Well, that was her real name. Is Diane Edwards I give her another name of the Bundy murders and I give that same name, there's a mention of and the second book. I call her Carla Brown in my book. That's the student but her name is Diana when she was quite striking to look at she. She was a very pretty lady.

Do they have dark hair? I recall with parted in the middle And uh I talked to other people, they thought yes, she was very nice looking lady and she was from wealthy family. She was, you know she didn't come from the same socio economic background instead, but she liked it the first time around. You know I mean she you liked him. He was fun to be with, but he had his things of ways of doing certain things that she didn't like anyway and like he'd user credit card, you just just kind of a leech to women, but he had baggage and he didn't look like he was see in some areas, and so she dropped him and that crushed Bundy. Now here's the thing. When you got a law school and he started to really surge in life people started to take notice. She became interested again, so they started meeting again and and Bill Bundy was at one point off work in Olympia,

Liz Kendall- believe they were going to get married and she was helping through law school. In other ways, you know financially and he's working but she's helping. He's dating diet, words again or, as I say, in on the act, and so so there was a guy I talked to well had hard body for these, you know political jobs. He said I'm Never even heard of this scandal but Iram Diane, and so he set it up for to be married. He asked her and she agreed, but listen to me. He had no intention of marrying her. All this was was a getting back at her. She leaves to go back. He had no intention of marrying her no intention. This is right, but or you start in the murder. I believe this was in this number of seventy three. He would be killing the next month and he knew it and so he's he gets in America. This is his way of making getting even.

Even in the score she goes back to San Francisco. He never called her again six weeks later, she's calling him say, what's up with you, why aren't you calling me why not this one? I bet- and I see you book the murders that you know she's stronger than money, but you know here's a man who was never at a loss for words with her. He just shuts up and he listens to her and she said. Never call me again, like I say this, I say she's stronger, then click that was it, but you gotta know is that was never real anyway. He just wanted to get her back for what she did to him. That was, it Tell Kevin I want to thank you for and then talking about the trail of TED Bundy. Now this is a wild blue press release. So yeah tell us about wild blue Press and where best to get this version and if it's ok, it's been ebook and Paperback Ver

and so tell us a little bit about where we can get it best and a little bit allowable a little bit about while blue press. Yes, well, it's the my my new book. The trail of a TED Bundy digging up the on to stories is out now in trade paper, Ebay book an audio book and you can go directly to Amazon or you. Go directly to Wildblue Press, while blue Press is a new publishing company, a lot of authors are involved in it and it's growing I mean they're, putting out a lot of books, they're, adding authors all the time, and I think this is my third book with them I'll, be doing another. I'm doing research right now on another book that will be published by what the press it. It's just a great group of of of people and a great group of writers and yeah. We all enjoyed very much yes

swap your driven publishing company. Sorry, yes, company, I'm just saying: Wildblue, press dot com and I write write crime blogs. We all do if anybody wants go they all, and even though I have books that are published by other publishing companies, they they have You know them there as well, so you can see all my books and you can and you can load the archive blogs and read those as well whoa. Well, that's great Kevin! I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about the trail of TED Bundy digging up the untold stories and people want to contact you. They know how to get ahold of you and ask any questions you're, one of those people that's very accessible like that on. New prime discussion boards and so form so you're very out there and it's uh. It's spent a year benefit. I'm sure and thank you very much for this interview and you have a great night and I hope to hear- and thank you soon. Thank you.

Then we will be the next time. Thank thank you. Bye, bye, absolute goodnight, goodnight.

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