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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, We never lock our doors. This is an often heard remark expressing a common place, american attitude or belief that, despite never danger might prevail in public spaces, life inside our own homes remains were

should remain safe, carefree normal. This book covers thirteen high profile case is in which evil paid an untimely visit and found the entrance open whenever it was normal until it wasn't aces include Tommy Lynn sells John Noveske Steven J, Hayes, Polly Klaas Richard Ramirez, Richard Tren Chase, Danny Rollings and others. The book tour featuring the seed thing is through an unlocked door in Fox murder, with my special guest journalist and author Kevin Sullivan welcome back to the programmer. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Kevin Sullivan. Well, thank you Dan. It's always good to be on the show with you. We we have a good time and for you sure, review the books. You know before the office come on because you got all

They live out in all. It was ready to go, and I really appreciate that. Well, thank you very much It's my my extreme pleasure because I wouldn't want to miss a word of some of the stuff you've written this book is a fine example. Like I said before, we got on the air. This thing is jam, packed with d sales and a lot of the stuff for those people that think they read everything you've covered some things and in I got to warn people graphic detail. So let's get right to this. This is through an unlocked door in walks murder. We did a little bit of introduction, but not really. So, as you do in the introduction, tell us a little bit you said, your father was an attorney, so you came to some of this honestly and also there was an incident in nineteen sixty seven that occurred around your home. So tell us about that. How you came true crime and then how you came to want to do this book and why you sure,

yeah I kind of got an early start with true crime. It it well it normally children, don't pick up books adult books and read about crime, but my father was an attorney. He had a very large library in our home and at the age of ten and remember this, I'm sick. Three now, but at the age of ten I picked up book off of the shelf and it's called the world's worst murderers by a author named Charles Franklin, and it was published in nineteen sixty five in England and also had a publication over here that same year, and so I took the book the shelf I started reading it. I hadn't read an adult book before I didn't know whole lot about murder and I knew people sometimes harmed other people, but I found that it took me about three weeks to read the book and I remember having to stop number of time

asking my mother certain words what what they meant, as you can imagine, a ten year old kid having to do. But I got the book and I was just fascinated by it and the thing about the crime. Was these these murders, the two things that got me never want. It was the terrible peep well that were committing them and the folks it will be murdered and very often they just didn't see it coming. They were the innocent people and then made it really. The impression on the and so through the years I kept reading true crime, and I would read about war and things like that, because my father was in world war. Two, his brother was killed in world war. Two is on, was killed in World WAR two. So I grew up here stories and reading about conflicts, but true crime I never got away from it and it just it was something that is always there. It's all

always around us, you, you read it every day in the newspaper and there was an incident that happened when I was twelve in nineteen sixty seven and we lived about a mile and a half from the Anp grocery store which on Bardstown Road and I guess, maybe we're just about a mile from there and I used to go in that. So at least a couple of a week with my, mom and she would do her shopping now with you know, walk along with or whatever and uh there was robbery there one night We were not there and in fact I don't think it was even even dark yet, but formatted Rob the place and police officer with the Louisville Police Department, these men and cornered them basically across the street two

or the side of the building. In a parking lot- and you know just these- I just did not get away, but there were four of them and I think it's also there's a fifth involved that that they had gotten away, but four of bomb we're right there. When the shooting occurred, the police officer, his name was William Mayer. He had cornered three of 'em and apparently one he didn't, and this one man shot and killed him. And I remember being affected by that again. I had sort of to cry when I was dead, but I mean here: here's a place where this this occured it's near my home and it just it, was something so when these men came to trial. I asked my father if you would allow me to go, Gohan sit in on the trial

for at least a portion of it, maybe for a day or two. I would like to see it and he said that that would be okay, and I remember he took me down there. He told me three jobs not to leave my chair that he be back to get me for lunch and just to make sure he told up a court bailiff- that he knew to keep an eye on me and this man did and I remember sitting there looking at these men and Two of them were slouching in their chairs and I kept thinking they all sit up straight and wide in their parents. Teach them better I mean this? Is how a twelve year old thanks? Well, I guess, is it the trial occurred. This was thirteen. And uh, so you know it was just one of those things. My interest was- always there and I could never get away from it. Now is a later. I grew up became educated and I went into the to the

sorry for years and I'm still or data that still conducted, and so I'm busy in that world and I'm also busy in the writing world with true crime times and occasionally things having to do. History, but but that's where it all began when I was just a child and it just kind of look at me and it resonated and school. It's writing about. Two crab is still me today. I'm not just reading. I've been writing about three years now. So how do you come to. What do you notice in true crime? That seems to be a pattern. I'm reading it for so long and noticed that as a as a gifted, where you say well, geez I've never read anything like this, and then you know if you come up with the idea of writing a book. How does this woman idea come? How did it come about well through an unlocked door was a book that I had

wanted to write about for many years, but I never could get around to it, because there was always something else that needed to be done, but it was always in the back of my mind and I remember can log in with in my mind, I would often hear about I understand a lot of murders. They occur outside the home, they would have nothing to do with unlocked doors or or windows or not having your house secure, but they would occur outside. Home, okay and most of the murders. I write about our that way as well, but I've always found it rather sinister when you think of someone creeping to somebody's home and awakening them for reasons of not just stealing from my house but to commit and murder, and I know,

but I kept running track in my head about things over the years. And it, although I never saw any books written about murders that occur when there's easy access into the home because of the unlock door, but I kept cataloging it so when I decide to write this, Look I I have six different. Publishers, but make far. Who was the publisher of my book, the Bundy murders they had started started a new imprint called Exposit books deal a lot with true crime and they been asking me to do a book for quite some time, and I just you know It just didn't work out, and so we were talking and we decided. I asked him if I gave him the idea of this book and and we hammered out the deal, and so I signed it. Ontrac end crap out good, I'm going to finally be able to dig into this book and

there there started two full cases out all different directions. You know there's just just so many things. What people do that, then you know the thing I discovered about murders that occur in in in when they here to unlock doors and windows where the home had not been secured. There seems to be Mindset like I, I don't know how it is in Canada or in other countries. Probably very similar to the United States, but there seems to be something intrinsic about the United States, where many people in this can sorry, for whatever reasons, don't lock their doors, especially in the better areas. Now folks normally have to live in high crime areas, they're pretty smart and the locker their doors, not all of them, but they're better at it, but I've written books on

for where I was covered cases where the occasional what would come up and I would write about it- and I remember I was talking to a district Pennsylvania, and I- included this this in my book about the Alec Ryder murders and the district attorney said that, of course, and you could see this in the record- that when this kids name Alec Ryder, who was sixteen when he sneaked into his friends out in the middle of the night, with his best friend, would intention of murdering him and the entire family, he knew we would have no resistance because they kept their doors unlocked at night and he walked right in and the slaughter began. Well, I was discussing this with the district all right because, what's in the record, is every body was absolutely freaking out afterwards and everybody in the neighborhood and the surrounding area began, not just

locking their doors, purchasing, more locks, didn't, have a handgun, they purchased one or a shotgun, what they did. They bought more ammunition, and some people were so terrified. I'm thinking of one man in particular. He couldn't sleep at night and he would stay up and lookout his window to see if anybody was coming and but as I discussed this with the district attorney. You know he said, but you know, after a while things got back to normal and a lot of these very same people would not be so diligent as to lock their doors again and a lot of people are even their doors unlocked. So it's an odd thing for Maine to see this and as a crime writer, because writers are as immersed in this up as police officers, are we're just not there to see the bodies up close and person

on the ground, but we go through all the reports. We many times visit the locations of the murders we see have. We know what goes on and when you, but what goes on and don't- and you know there folks out there not locking their doors. It was my aim with this book through an unlocked door that everybody that reads this book if they, even if they're, not in the habit of locking their doors, they certainly should lock the door because, although a lock door will not detur some from getting into your home, if they really We want to get to you, they're going, have to break and enter not just have unlawful, I drink. Do it unlock door, they will have to break and enter there's a reason why it's called that and doing so, you might, you might be wraps from your sleep. A dog may hear you there The number of people who come into homes like that they've been shot and killed. So you have a better

and then walking in and waking you up. So my hope that folks read this book. If they're not used to doing that, they will lock their doors. Now you pick thirteen tails and you say thirteen high profile tail. So if you could just list the kinds of cases and the killer that are featured for lack of better term in this book. This cautionary tale. Yes, well all of 'em author seen, cases have a theme in much as the doors or windows we're not secure or another thing that sometimes the people need to do is those who owns of those with slightly over apartments or wherever you live. We sliding glass doors, get a bar, a wooden bar, a metal bar whatever you can get and place it in

on the inside of the doorway, so that if somebody he is able to trip that lock and these aren't the greatest locks anyway on sliding glass doors, they will not be able to open that door because there's a bar there and a number of the murders that what's the name, Danny Rolling, committed, he was able to get through one apartment anyway. Just that way, and so these are all most are some of them made national news. Some of them made news in the region that they were in, and some of them made news in just maybe a community and then you know it kind of rippled out from there one of the strangest murders in this book that would not be considered. Hype profile, but I had to add it because of resort it was was the case of a nurse fella. That was a

I think it was a diabetic nurse up in Indianapolis Indiana and a nice guy really nice. Guy but something happened to him one night and he snapped and he got in his car and he drove from Indianapolis probably came through Louisville. Perhaps not. This trial isn't even a Jew, yeah. The trial will start shortly, but he came. He got to the area of Lexington KY, which is an hour e of of Louisville, and he he drove another additional thirteen miles from the Lexington area to a small town called for sales Kentucky. I think populations around, I figure out four thousand, but now it's it's early in the morning hours. He pulls

never been on this street before he pulls down the street and he stops at home this mark three hundred on Douglas Ave and it's at the corner of gray street inside this home sleeping is a father. His son is six year old boy and his. Your daughter, the mother, who works for ups, is working. I believe that Cps was working third shift. She was not at all so this. Otherwise, to this point, normal man that is everybody that knows the minute in in the well to him in the hospital just a normal guy, he goes up to the front steps very quiet in the neighborhood. Nobody is out, he tries the front lock.

He goes into the home. It's a two story home. He wanted around the first floor for a short time. He goes into the kitchen and retrieves a butcher knife. He goes upstairs and he goes into this little boys room whose real name is Logan. I changed the names of the family because they requested it for the book, but the name of the killer is the same. Then he stabbed this little boy to death in the head and neck sister tried to stop this man and She was slightly injured, but she's, ok and the father of course. Hearing all this commotion got up, pin the guy to the floor, and within a short time. The police were there and you know, and if you look, at how random this is now the thing about this is it this whole crime is Terab.

Once it sounds, may very well of hinged on the door being unlocked because uh there's no there's nothing to show that he was uh open in but he found it unlocked. He was obviously looking for the Unlock door and he found it, and I write about people there's another person in the book. Who is His name is Adam Leigh Lane who was a trucker and he got a rule of thumb that he was uh? only going to go into houses where the door was unlocked and there were people that would occasionally when he was this, like he used to have a time where he would like to strike around two hundred am- and you know something comes out people with their their doorknob jiggle, and you know I mean they would wake up and then he would move on, but there was nothing to stop him on some of these location

and he was able to go into these homes and and murder. So it's true that some killers will avoid. Any kind of house defense that you have of your garage work, log, your front doors. Doctor, windows are locked. They just move on to other places. Okay, because there is no noise it has to be created if they're going to break in and that for some of these What is a little too risky, I mean if you so we're normal people. I couldn't imagine walking into somebody's house Even it was even if the it was unlocked and wandering around their house in the dark I mean, I would think, maybe normal any minute so go to browse, but that fear isn't present within people and they're going in there with a mission. The mission of the cases I write about is to murder it that it's, the murder and Richard Ramirez. Who would you know

enter to unlock doors or you know, windows that are open or something he could you know, google the door and get into he would do so of course he was a thief, but he also a diabolical murderer. So this is the result of the last thing. Society wants to do is make it easy on people that want to, but the greatest problem for unlock doors. Is what's going on in the mind of the individual and The problem with people is that most people don't think like this most people believe will everything is normal? see, I've always believed most of my life there, Everything will be normal. Everything is normal until it's not. And you gotta remember with somebody enters your home.

And they come through an unlocked door and they have weapons or they have a weapon and you wake you up there in charge. Now it's their home. It's no longer your home, you have your life depends on. They want to do with it and when people blindly put themselves at risk by not securing their home normally they're doing so, because the thought of murder or via or anything like that is so far move from their minds that they pretty constant cough currently think will that happens to other people, but it just a they have an animal app intimate and then it's the way that I don't want people to think. I don't like to frighten people, but there is an anyway that I would keep. Are I don't even you right out of my all my offices in my arms,

My door is locked even in the data, and there was a guy going through the neighborhood one day and he was jiggling doors. I mean the door knobs and I had get up one day and this guy had a rag in his hand, and he said he was going to go out and you know he's going around policy and or not well. What he's looking for is to get in and steal I'm sure, but this was very of this individual and with broad daylight, so so ill with him. It's probably just that most people that leave their doors unlocked they're, probably going to escape from being murdered. But why take the chance and a purse like me? I could not go to sleep with my house unlocked! That's how J my mind is about this stuff, and you know it's just you know it's security, all the way from Maine and that that just a normal way to live you have in.

Two incredible examples in the cases of Danny Rolling's and Richard Ramirez and the thing that I found was very very interesting. 'cause just mute. Bring it together and may We're reading that, but does the separate ideas you put together is that Danny Rolling's claim that there was a voice, Oricum, ending voice, call German, I, and that when you went to one of the doors that was unlocked, he said it was locked, but after he summoned the demon gem and I it suddenly online yeah, which I thought was fascinating from who is the worst killers in through true crime history, share. It lean right idea that if the door is unlocked, Satan help me open that where certain? Why Satan but right, but the thing of it is, is that there are some people out there that are demented, that you know

good and there's been killers. Think well! You know they didn't mind me coming in, because the door was unlocked. I mean I write about. You know your chase, however, the a book on M vampire Richard Chase, markers and chase you know he at one point he can. So that he could just go in you know, and one person reported that in one book of Everett a long long time ago that he felt I even told somebody he felt like he He was allowed to go in because the door was open, it's chase was not Richard Chase was not. He was deeply deeply men leave the server mentally ill, but he is not legally insane. He believe this blood was drying up and maybe the powder. So the very fact that he we might be welcomed in all it's quite plausible and a lot people that

going to homes killers take advantage of the the the Dr Pettit family income that I write about, who lost his wife and two daughters, the person the two the pair that murdered them. That was their first murder, the one guy not Hayes but criminal here, whatever that's whatever thank you have to look it up well book at little naked. Pronounce. When I was writing it, I learn to pronounce it, but he had been going into uh homes for many years and burglar. Not harming anybody It just so happens that this time, when this home and here's a doctor, but there was a door that this left unlatched when they got in. But this time it was going

three different, no matter how many homes they had previously burglarized and that's another thing it doesn't take. Somebody just coming in with the intention that so sometimes someone can come in perhaps would not be intentional killing. It'll end up going down to the murder anyway, but you're most dangerous situations or when they come in with the intention to kill and That's what you know. Our chase would do and come right in and start blasting or whatever and no he had killed a young mother. That was our huh. I was at work and she had her day off and she was getting ready care of the garbage outside the front almost unlocked, and he just most right in as soon as these are you start each other a couple of times with twenty two luger style pistol- and you know

very well and go to the next all. So these are things that show up in new. This. They show up from time to time. People do hear them. So you know, but putting all these together in one book, I'm pretty convinced that Somebody has been in the habit of not logging their doors once they read all these things, Danny rolling to Richard Ramirez, it's going to cause people to think twice, because it's a it's a day danger that they don't don't need to subject themselves to do everything you can a lot up and then you've got you've already won over half the battle. Just by doing that, EVA include the horrifying tale of Danny rowlins lips. Go through a little bit of it. 'cause even a little bit will shake you. Have your idea not to lock your doors ever again, so

talk a little bit about you talk about his life and everything. But let's talk about write. His idea, how he gets in and and controls these people any talk about him watching these young girls at Walmart. So you talk about this right Evans here on Christina CALL, Sonya Larson these right between eight years old you to Florida, Gainesville tell us a little bit about roll doing what he does, how he achieves what he wants to do. Rolling was you know, he came from a home that he had a lot of, problems with his father. There were a lot of issues within the home, a boy but none of that turned him into what he became. But rolling was basically a loser in life. He never. He had diff called the achievement. I don't think that this

fire to achieve was really there, but one thing he could do and he cause he was a baby robbed place to see you know he was he was already before he he committed murder. He was going down a wrong, any committed. He admitted to later, even before Gainesville he killed some people earlier than that, but they but what happened in Gainesville was there nothing short of diabolical and it's pretty clear from from what rolling himself would say. There's a couple good books, they're all on the case and yeah, but rolling teamed up with Thunder London, this book and if anybody reads Rollings book

the main thread within his writing is there is a celebratory theme of the murders he that he committed and it's real it's there and. You know rowly where he would would break into these people. These apartments these places where these college kids lived. He He was going to murder them and, of course there would be the sexual assault that occurs to, and you know there were absolutely no mercy on his part and never any any regret later, because interesting thing that I brought out in in the book is that took. He took joy in stabbing people as they slept. There's a there's, a person in every week, Manual, Kubota

and voter was stabbed. There was there was a girl that Well, I also killed in the next room. They were sure of apartment. Weren't boyfriend girlfriend, but they were an apartment and he started stabbing me. God, to the apartment start stabbing him immediately because of course, being a male, he was a threat Kubota immediately woke up call that thought he had been shot started fighting rolling and he got in some some some good punches but rolling stabbing so quickly with this knife that there was no way that the manager motive was was going to survive and he died with just shoot number of seconds after that. But when would rolling was asked by somebody after he was incarcerated?

Would you consider would be the worst way to die, he Being said, you know, while I was asleep, and so you know he took great pleasure in this stuff and if you read his variety, I'd, only recommend people by the book, but I got it because of of doing this. You know this this this chapter, but it's very celebrate you can tell he enjoyed the murders, he talks about invoking of the demon and they were just very diabolical crabs, and you know it. It's one thing to murder somebody and it's another thing to want to do things that will were you glorify what you have done and there was one individual that they he killed there, that he

murdered her. He had sexually assaulted her and he had left the apartment and he was going on his way and he couldn't find his wallet. He went back to the up, but look for as well. I don't believe you ever located it, but over there. He said the demon or whatever told him to cut that up. He severed the head, of the woman and about to tell you he did all of this for shock value and it was very successful. He he pulled a bookshelf out of like out, cold or whatever and placed it back like maybe closest bedroom, but it's where, with over the front door, they'd see it and he prob her head on that shelf so that the

would see your head as soon as they came through the door and instead gently this girl that that he murdered was also worked for the sheriff's department as a like, a a real person like an an one, one person, a person that takes calls, and so everybody knew her and you know, and he taken the body, and this is this- is so surreal, it's kind of hard to imagine. He had placed her naked body on the bed. She sitting headless on the edge of the bed with their feet on the floor, I believe it's your left arm, that is, a late. You know kind of like stretched like a normal fashion, but her right arm is frozen in an upward but as if her arm is raised in the air

and the police officers that head right. There in one fell around their first in the whole, entire one stark and he went around in the back- and he was waiting for the like the superintendent of the apartment- complex to bring a key Eddie look around the back and he could see that there was a gap in the weather store was where the shades blinds you. Could could look under and see thru and he shined his light underneath there and looked in there, and he saw that- and it's so shocked him to see that he just immediately backed away from it anyway, before this second officer to show up up email? Who happened to be actually the wife of another officer who had just been too low in preview, scribe saying you know so like maybe not even twenty.

Hours earlier so talk about he. He here like he was boasting and wanted people to appreciate his work just as pure pure your diabolical stuff and for folks who don't believe in the death penalty. You know I can sympathize with folks that don't they mean to have the right thing. But if you look at somebody like Danny, rolling or TED Bundy or or Richard Chase,. It's always been my opinion that we, you have some people better this diabolical they're better off not being here And you know that he committed these. These motors in the state of Florida just about in super hits execution and that's what ultimately happened to Scott, but his words will live on and and he was he you who is concerned about that and that's why he wrote this book. But again it's a he

from the perspective of a celebratory thing for the murders he committed any place that head on that book. It worked its magic answer, the because the officer said that as they came through and of course they knew their friend had been murdered. I couldn't help but look at it and they beat conducting their work and they good look over at it again echoed they did move the head They had to leave the crowd scene when we have a craft like that, it's going to remain a clumsy for many many hours. And you got a lot of people working and you got it hello. He feels that I just couldn't. I couldn't believe it it just. It was past believing and I was as occasional glance over and so that's what will and won it, and so you know it's just a strange strange case:

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did he thought he had a gift from Satan or is serving Satan so is emissary, so tell us, will little bit about what Richard Merece did and HOLLAND unlocked window and door featured in those crimes. Yeah Ramirez. You know he grew up in a family that parents were hard working. Father worked for the railroad, the mom will work in a shop, a boot factory and girl normal people to try other make a living. It was hard. They had a tough time, the other kids. You know there were other kids there interesting at the Ramirez had a couple of head concussions when, when he was small I don't think there's any evidence of these contributed to what he became. But you look at some

those pictures. As a as a kid, but he just looks, looks like and I good, certainly a normal trial and then do you think about how it turned out later, but he he became thief when he was very young, he you know he learn how to slip in and out of homes and, of course, for a long time we're just burglaries. He just he would steal things, but he got into Satanism. And he got into drugs, and you know we would spend time between his home in Texas and then he going out to you know LOS Angeles and ultimately, badges where he was created, is murder and mayhem. And it was it about in LA that that really she's read about night stalker murders that you know just the terror,

the chances of any one person encountering Ramirez and when this is going on was exceedingly remote, and yet somebody was going to get murdered and but- When you have murders like this, people are just you know, they just go bonkers. And you think everybody would lock down there at their places. But you also available day it was hot and exceedingly hot. They didn't have you know Erica difference or whatever some people slept with guns by their night stand or what have you and but sometimes, you know they leave their windows open, but we're merits would always look for a way to and then again there were some people already killed, who riff used to lock their doors and even with the police names of family members. Like one older lady- and she said,

refuse to be a prisoner in my own house. This is a nice lady, but it was a mindset she had and she just didn't feel like it was that She refused, it would be like maybe demeaning to her if she had live but Butthead The house been really secure your he may have gone on to sell to somebody else's home, but there's also missed opportunities in what happened with with with this color, because he had burglarized one couple, an stolen from them and about a year later he came back and told the same couple. He came bright Back to that same house and got into them now between the time when these folks first burglarized until they were murdered, they ticular bother shotgun, get the

shotgun loaded under the bed area. The man had a hand gun the woman had a eight forty five, you know all automatic, and so they will. They will well gone now. When you're talking about this is there's a thing that people need to remember when you're talking about sub purity in any form or fashion consistency. In the military, they call it having your you know what wired tight at all times. You can't not have it wired tight people that don't will die, you gotta keep your stuff. Why, tight at all times, so it's consistency, you're doing the same thing day in day out for your security, just in case the unthinkable happens. Well, this couple was in. Theory well prepared for a return visit for just a burglar they're, not even think in terms

not even thinking in terms of murder, and they kept the shotgun to the bed loaded all the time, but the grandchildren had come over just the weekend before Chase, attacked them and being a smart granddad. He unloaded the shotgun 'cause he didn't want to kids, finding it and some terrible miss APP, which is a smart bank of the one locked up. However, when the kids left, he failed to low and when Ramirez Broken- and you know people will read in the book if they've never read about him, though they'll read about this, he would wake up people being violent. He would slap them, he would beat them He would also he's looking for stuff he's. Looking for stuff to steal, he even for the murders occur. Usually he would kill the or otherwise take. The mail it in the house, but it was in this particular house, and he was he had been.

He had awakened her and already attacked her husband and he was rooting around for something she pulled the shotgun out from under the bed. He turns around and man She has got him dead to rights yeah. Both the trigger and it just clicked, no shotgun blast, no shotgun shells. She could have killed him right there. Now that would have saved her own life. And that would have prevented additional murders from occurring, but she did not she, but it didn't work out Then he might have let her live. You might sometimes he did let people the female live but but yeah, usually when that happened, they they normally had a child there, but it. But, but even then that was a guarantee, but he killed her after that, and so that was what what what a missed opportunity would you have to look? You have to look for. Why that that that happened and if

from the lack of consistency but like the grand did the right thing by unloading it, but you can't drop the ball in this stuff. You gotta load the weapon back up you gotta locking your doors and so Rivera like with all killers took advantage of where ever someone had let down their guard, he depended upon and by the way he he was a Satan worshipper. But this is this. Is this? Is our chronic bolt and funny he was and he would would mockingly make people repeat that they loved dating or whatever, and the people would do it not not, meaning it just to not be killed and where they discover who this was, and they were put posters out on him. Ramirez found himself in a or what people were recognizing him and he

he ended up being chased and beaten by a lot of people and when the police officer, finally showed up if he was laying plug needed beating on this this curve. The first thing he said was, thank God that here can you imagine that idea is thank God, you're here but yeah, and so you know, Ramirez was unable diabolical individual, but he look for the Unlock door and or uh window, and more than not. He found it. Can you write, we won't get into too much of the detail, but you do in the book. Is that these guys, Ramirez and and Tommy Lynn sells is. When you talk about no remorse, there is some people there are times when these killers will let somebody go that's compliant exam in here will let them go if there's a child and then there's other,

but people will be the exact the exact opposite of that, and you talk it is in the Navy and her sister and she's in a wheelchair and yet yeah carving at the grounds on in in bodies yes, yes, yes, maybe part of the guardian wrote is that these are the the killers that are not typical but Jen Way they wreak havoc. This will last for generations right right I mean the we're level in in in LA was just off the chart and everybody everybody thought you know. There's he couldn't not visit everybody again, your chance of, because I read a night stalker victim was extremely well, but for those that he that that that that don't make them to love the- and I was just it- was horrible and Is there there's even a story, including there from a newspaper article where people were in fear

and sure enough. He had struck just a few doors down, so you know- and in fact Ramirez even was trying to get into a window where uh we're a sheriff's deputy lived and the wire heard somebody trying to raise the window, and he said it can. We have painted that thing shot? She fell off Why you trying to get in that? There's something going on there. So somebody's doing something, and of course it was him. I and so he had to go on to do you know something else so yeah it it's the psychological aspects of the fear that these people create is what creates the pandemonium, when a diabolical murder happens in the home. Chances are the people to did. It will not be coming back to that area. We're just not going to do it now. There could be flip. Where would but chances are they're, not but the p

well that live in that area, especially on the same street or within blocks. There is this: this is a war, if I worries throwing the match in the rocket fuel. There's just burst, of pandemonium and fee and for a while. It's way over the top, far more than it should be, and they go just off the parts in what they need to do to protect themselves. What's interesting, psychologically, is that over a period of time, while some people Will remain locking their doors that one before. Sometimes the majority of those that started, locking their doors would fall off again. Now that is, problem in the mind, and that is I think that is you could do a psychological study on it. Just it it's really interesting. When I

talked about Nettie. It was Florence Nettie Lang. She was eighty one years old and her sister was Mabel Bell. She was eighty three. This is interesting. They did Believe in locking doors and the family, it implored them the lock the door. You know we don't we don't want to live behind locked doors, and so with this is a credibly ironic, you have two or three this is out of. There are more more where the people were Adam, that way that they were warned so in In retrospect, they can't believe that they were warned by family members about exactly that, and yet these the people that were attacked and the the worst worst attacks with these people. Actually, yes, absolutely yeah. It was just you know, when you're confronted with that and your trying to convince somebody to lock their doors,

they're, saying they're not going to live like that. It's almost like. There's a strong hold in their mind, they built, an image and a belief system of them there and for some people it's very, very difficult to crack. And you know, people if they would spend a little time research, thinking about things and just doing a little bit of study on something like this. They could see the with some in locking their doors or there's other precautions like even beyond the to make sure that you don't fall victim to climb. I mean this thing you People need to remember about people that are out there that want to do on the people and what they do on. It's not just a you know, points of or whatever it's to to take their life. To do something very bad to them and kill them. Why

remember this they're, looking for the opportunity, they're looking for the easy mark, they're looking the female walking late at night alone. They're looking for the kid that's walk other tended I'll, never forget, there was a killer that was getting ready to be put to death and he said it killed and children, and he said he said What would you tell parents, he said? Tell parents to it tell children if there ever grabbed the start screaming king in fighting and making as much noise as possible. Very often I will let them go b they're just too much and I wrote about the case just like that to wear a guy tried to grab one kid and she for him and he actually put the child down, grab someone else and the other kid just offered: no resistance at all and so the solidity there, this guy knew what he was talking about, so prepare yourself for the,

the terrible thing that probably will never come, but make yourself safe, a locking your door because it could be that evil will come to you grab the door by and move on and you'll stay safe in your bed. If someone is hell bent. So you talk Ramirez using us about this. The doggie door or the cat, the door that we would think did no one could possibly get in, except some really very small. How does that? How did it get in through there and how is that not safe. Well, you know we We've always had dogs and, and some of them were small, but my wife. I would never have anything like that, because we could learn someone would get in and in the case, what what he did there. He widened it, my understanding he

he was able to widen it, and he was a pretty thin guy anyway, and he was able to just get in there so anytime, you do something that creates an opening. If that opening can be abused or you know worked on where it could be wide, then your look for problem to happen. You gotta remember it was TED Bundy who was able to assist gate by going up through a light fixture that wasn't. That was, bolted right, and he got up there's a thing and move, and they looked at that thing beforehand. They said: well, it's due to be welded, but there's no way a human cow. Get up there and go through there, but he the way he was able to do it so and and that somebody that that is it captivity. Ed goes so here you know here were mirrors is out he he come to this thing and

all I don't know I don't remember what he used to widen it, but he did so. It was just enough where he could just really what he was doing snaking himself through and he was able to get in there and it was once he was in then it all long to him, and even he had this feeling he knew one he was in the apartment because he know he always had a twenty. It something on it one he was in the apartment, it's almost like he could relax because he work the apartment by way of a pin light and the people were sound, sleep, and should anybody get up, he knew we could shoot them immediately. So there was no real threat to the danger part. I think what he considered to be. The toughest part was just getting it one he was in. They shut the door behind him. He that he was in control, and that is very, very common. For these killers me talk about control, the the very dyeable local Tommy Lynn Sells,

and children enjoyed all of it, his nickname it was cold in coast, yes tell us about, he meets him and his wife Jessica Meet Crystal Harris yeah, trailer and their two children tell us how this diabolical man operate. And uses the unlock door unlocked window and these. Trust, Well, you know, sales is complete cycle I mean all these people are just completely unfeeling completely without remorse. I always thought it was odd that the cells in his wife would attend. This church Texas and if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, I think it's where they met each other, the harrises and they became friends, and this is for the

friends I mean you wouldn't think you harm somebody's child of a friend. You know I mean just, would you should do that and turns out that that you know, while Mister Harris was gone, to help another couple move, because there's had moved move to Texas from from another state and could come down to visit? They want to move Texas too, so he went back with them. Oddly ran into cells that very day sells learned that he was going to be out of town, and you know and here's people. He knows you know, MRS Terraces, at Allman, the dog, nursing home. Of course, there is also on the boy and the boys blind and then a friend over well so comes over and he goes through this open window and uh. He goes

boys, room and the boy can't see, but You know he gets into the other lane. He looks in on MRS Harrison she's sleeping with, with one of the kids and then he goes into the daughters that also has a friend up, yeah right and then has the friend up in the top bunk. And you know he's wanting to. He wakes up wanting to molester got his knife and, of course the ultimate happens. She tried to break away and he stabs her numerous times and She falls up against the wall. Collapses. Blood is everywhere. And he doesn't at that point C, The little girl pull up in the bad day or friend. And uh. But the spots are right before, and course he stabs her too

ill and and leave her for dead. And then he goes back out. And ITALY, but thank God she she lives and she makes her way to a couple of plays, and you know a couple: let let her in and the man helping her. He thinks she's going to die on him any moment to bleeding profusely, but she survives and she testifies against them, and ghost cells is just a cells as a walking murder machine with any conscience whatsoever- and, I believe, include Radford psychology thing on in the book as well. With some living his life there the different events in his life, but yeah he's just a just a worthless, worthless individual.

And the father mentioned. You know when cells was finally put put to death. His daughter had died so horribly that the dad, maybe the normal guy, but he said you know hey after the drugs. You know went into his vein and see that we Do this all the second at that business? What went when you execute somebody? He said he said it looks like the dude just one of those late at at a tribute sells us with the fleet, and that was in but yeah very, very evil, evil individual and no no talk about killing children, adults and yet you know from the outside. He could be a very nice person. Certainly there This is like them thought he was available individual and you know could be funny or whatever. But again it's what's looking on the inside of it that person so yeah so, but he was probably

put the death and and and that was a good thing for the world. You talk about cells, admitted the crime and then even demonstrated for the police step by step re. Crawling through the window for a re yeah. They film the police, film the event. So yes, I've seen He talked to yes and he talked the incredible rush he got from killing. Yes, you guess you've you've glued some of his early life, though there's some l events. I would say that would report due for later, so maybe you can include some of the things you know the funeral of what he claimed the first murder was tell us a little bit about some of the things he claimed later. What

which were now. Are you speaking of the thing where there was an interesting case where there was a a murder that occured in the house, while the father was away. Is that the one that if you could bring me up, which more you're talking record like I was so many of that book- can't really remember what she was talking about start talking about it, background when he talked about he claimed his first murder was at fifteen, and then he talked about crawling into bed now with his grandma, then he was strange behavior when his father died around the funeral casket you talked about. You know Yes, the tried to rape, his own mother, that was official level yeah yeah well yeah. He was very sexually. You're messed up, but I think that read report yeah yeah that that that document that he would very strange stuff and that's right. He had committed his first murder out there, I think at fifteen and

so you will I don't know what you know get the thing about these killers. They leave this terrible destruction in their wake and in retrospect we go back and we look and we see these things. We see these the problem by air and we see the things that occurred in whether there were beatings from the parents or whatever we look at all this, and yet at no time can we pinpoint where they passed from the if, if they were abused child to there, the ever growing predator and you look at the life of cells. I don't know of any point in his life that you could point do that even looks all, and you know that when he was just very, very small child. So you know these signs of ok get more weird than one of the crawl in bed, your grandmother or

text Willa family members. So you know he he was. He was off the rails from an early point as far as personality, but when it got into the killing of people and how he and the. Be remorseless aspect of how he could recount it I mean some of these killers. I mean and your body was this way you can reach cal things. You know what just at MIKE Mike Fisher said. He might say something valid murder and it's like you could have said fascinated: sugar, complete indifference to the victim and there's no sales was with one person that once he was captured, uh huh. I just like to talk about he. He would talk- and you know this, against the advice of his authorities, but he would give interviews all kinds of stuff. I need someone to talk talking talk which I actually think is a good thing so the more people hear about how these

people think and how they were. You know the better off they'll, be because yeah just some astounding stuff that he did an yeah. He would boast of the fact that you know he would kill from coast to coast, so he was uh. About the mobile killer. And He would leave a trail of bloodshed. You know wherever he went You talk about November, eighty seven. This is again some of the others is probably one of the worst things. I've ever read this Russell Dar D'Ardenne twenty nine years. His wife is Ruby is thirty and he has a little son Peter three years old and Ruby is seven months. Pregnant. And he's watching these p when he knocks on their door and tell us about this ruse what how does he try to

approach these people. This is in a locked door. What is the first try to do, and there tell us about this- that is that very often I eat, when people read the book, they'll notice, but I will include other things that happened. That didn't happen in a locked door, even though the person would look for lock, or what have you to make it easier just because of the totality of the crimes. So they a good picture of who they're dealing with so in that case, correct I'm wrong, but I believe that's where he was was he was wanting to act like you want to purchase the house and they open and yeah? That was it that was it and then he his way in with force and you're right, the murderer of that family. I think that's probably the most horrendous murder

that I've ever that I've ever written about, because she was pregnant and because of what happened with the beating of everybody with the bat and stuff and the demo just he's killing her the other child, this killing the baby insider. I mean it just it's a stuff. It's really the stuff of like a horror movie where, if you want to theater, you have everybody screaming, but everybody would be saying something that horrible could not happen, and yet it did happen and. This stuff, that when murder occurs like this this, is really the unthinkable I mean there are. I have read about people like that I've written about cops that have their hardened detectives. I mean they're veterans,

And even these folks sometimes come into these crime scenes and it's very difficult for them to take and they've seen a lot and so coming in to those who had to come in already knew from the description, but people will read about it, of the brutality of how he killed the guardian family guarantee that those people that came in there that had to work the forensics of that in the crowd scene, that's something that they will never forget. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have to attend some kind of counseling. Because it was the most horrendous thing that anybody could think of. Yeah this. This idea that he would. You know I couldn't even believe it. He pulled the man's pants down and cut his genitals off then was and endless pressured said. I'm going to take this to your way.

I'll. Take this to your wife, yes, and then bashed in little baby's head that it was sickening is sickening to read it. It was unbelievable that I mean just keep reading the depths of depravity some of these killers yeah in the good old days of when they took a while to catch these people. Yeah. This type of murder makes a simple shooting look: almost Santa ' 'cause. You know what I'm saying as evil as some of the shooting somebody in killing him. This type of murder is unthinkable. You know most people most people out there. Most people in prison, most people who have killed people- wouldn't do these things. In fact, when Chase was in in jail there, there were 2re

actions out of the violent people there. The killers, some of he said, give him to us and we'll take care of him, but you very hard and people there who were tell, in the jail staff. We can't sleep having him there us it. Bothering us having this guy Nearest because they knew of all the things that he had done. And so even the even what we call. Bad people were very upset with these tons of actions and uh yeah, and if you, if you don't have to make anything beyond the murder of the dirty family, to know that the Most diabolical things that could happen to a family did happen on that day to them and there's really nothing else, he could have gone more horrible it

we just would have kept him alive and just tortured for days it if you think about what it takes to take a baseball bat and do that to somebody. And willingly do it Ann enjoy doing it. I mean you look at a guy like cells, you thank you can't be humid, you can't be, but he Less than the mystery of how he got that way is something never know, and I guess we should tell tell you know the listeners that he had taken. Mister dart out and away from the family and I don't know maybe a mile or two away on the sounds of the displays place near like a school and. Did Mister dirty tried to gain the upper hand and, of course, sells gilding and then cut off his generals. As you say,

And there is why I mentioned that it Becaus about the killing off site is be cause when they came and saw the darting family dead and they couldn't Alyssa. Gardein temporarily, he was considered a suspect and then it was a long after that they'll, ok in the body, and then they knew it was. It was someone else so yeah and you know. When you don't leave a lot of trace evidence behind which- which Shells apparently did not. Then you know for his crabs. It you have to have some luck to. Probably you know, map somebody, but He was able to go on from there and kill, and then you know it's just one of those things who is a killing machine and he wasn't gonna stop, he didn't even want to stop killing. And uh, you know there are some people out there like

and when they're like that they have to either be about right or incarcerated for the rest of the or incarcerated rated for awhile then put the debt, because there's no way, there's no way these people can be rehabilitated. That's. Why that's why you know who was at the Lady WAR of the Manson people. We were going to roll over and there was just a outcry in California and herb always been denied again. It was reversed and you Well, they say that text. Why I mean I'm a Christian, I'm a minister, they say: Tex Watson is a born again Christian. Now I think that's great, but I think pixel staying. The rest of life and minister there, and he After day he would he would be staying in my house. That's ok, that's just the way it is so I think Mister Watson needs hey there, so I can understand the outcry in in California about that absolutely.

We have time for one more again, this incredible cautionary tale of tale. That lot lot of people knew about this. This resonated NASH Julian internationally to the case of Polly Klaas. Yeah, the night free living with her mom and there's a half sister and there's a party again they and you get a more innocent scenario. After Tommy Lynn sells. We got the Polly Klaas story, well you can tell us what happens with this and how it comes to be that this Polly Klaas is disappear. Well, it's that easy. If you read that that that is the one chapter that I included. Who reports a lot of them verbatim because tell you so much, and Il here was was an innocent sleepover and the door was left unlocked at night and the

course this Richard Alan Davis was able to get in and take her, but but even before we talk about that MARC Klaas, Father he he talked. He talked about how Holly this is so surreal used to have a fear. Of somebody coming in a man coming into their home and taking her away, he imagine that yeah this came out, the dad talked about it and it's so weird and then like they were playing, make up and one person you know it was allowed Halloween. My person was doing one, playing in and she and they will make it a poly to look dead. It is isn't that a horrible irony and yet and yet so Richard Alan Davis, just

the scum of the earth was a to come into a locked again had the or been locked. I do not believe for a second, even the broken in, but he came through the unlocked, but we can't know that for sure but came through the unlocked door and he got her and was so terrible is that uh he had his car had had a problem and gone off until like a little, ditch or whatever and the police had come. He had put poly on the like a little hillside. He said that little elaborate a time and the there was a breakdown in some stuff. There wasn't that police department didn't know that there was like an APB, Alana On the missing child- and there was just some itself through the crowd- and, and then they- you know they. He was on proper. Property really. What is happening was told to leave

the car got out. He was told to leave and then and then he said that he we over afterwards, so it was just a terrible terrible case. Of course the house was still there in the Petaluma california- and it's a call from this, so we're we're christian Park and then there's another part down the street and it's the kind of place that you would you would look to for safety and it's just a nice neighborhood, but again no matter where you live, no matter how nice it is remember this evil, in the air evil is in people and wherever people go, there can be evil and so nice area, you still have to be on guard. You still have to lock your doors or there can be a tragedy. Tell us of the incredible response to this incredible crime.

Well, you know the actress who Winona Ryder the Petaluma missing. You know they still didn't know they assume she was missing, kidnapped and hopefully you know presumed alive. She had put up two hundred thousand, dollars of her own laugh a lot of money today, but it's leaving more money bed put up two hundred thousand dollars for her safe return they had started a eight. Thank you just above the maxi thing too, to find her and, of course, after she was found that there was a real let down to the you know in the community, but good things. Something good was born out of it and if you could ever bring some good out of something and so horrible, then it's always good to do and MARC Klaas is he's got his own organization.

To make people aware of these things and and and and his mom and always mother, and course but no, but they they were divorced but Bob has her organization and they it's not just keeping Polly lab death. Not would in the memo people, that's not what this is about. It's keeping kids safe, making parents aware providing kits for for people to understand the need to protect, but if the worst happens, there's a chance to get your kid back, and so they have turned what was a terrible destruction. At least good was born out of it and I'm sure this helped them mostly throughout the years and terrible terrible storage used to be stupid. Little girl that was taken is just horrible. You talk about.

Another case, the last story in the book. Why include that story and tell us a little bit about it? Well, that was the story that last story was the was the thing of the nerve And the one that happened in for sales Kentucky and and included, because it was so bizarre. It's never going to get the airplay something something like a know: Klaas or Richard Ramirez and his killings. But it was so unusual that I wanted people to know because, like again, this probably this unlock door in in in for sales, Kentucky maybe that up and down that very the huh. Those were filled with unlocked doors and.

I just want people to know that you can take something that so so far from almost reality or someone could get in a car in another state in another city come to a place they do A bit before went to a home. Murder child and take the child away forever. None. This should be yeah, it should be, but it was and what made it easy was that unlock doors, so When I was reading the book, I wanted to choose the cases that would have the best representations of it. Men believe me that there there were others and he'll sometimes said Bundy he dependent on the unlocked for most of his murders heard out now I could have included cases of where Hey did so there's more out. There is thirteen cases, all the out there there's a lot more than that. We can only put

much in one book, but I wanted to choose those cases that would, I think, best speak to people whether they are on a national level or a local level of the ferocity that can come from these colors, that ever homes that are on your and what you can do about it to help, keep them out, but again, there's no guarantee. What was something it is a guarantee, because there are some that are out there that will only enter through and door, so you've got some going for. You got a lot going for you if a person becomes security conscious and it's never too late, lock your doors in your cars lock. Your doors in your home keep your doors locked during the daytime too, because I read about a lot of murders that occured, the data okay, so you never know what could happen. Do everything you can to protect yourself.

And then you just hope for the best and you move up through life, not in fear but doing everything that you can do to protect yourself and your family. It's interesting to when people think because they live in a small town, because Nettie and her sister Mabel lived in a place of forty thousand people, and move in tonight, they did place and they had nothing to steal and they were in a wheelchair. When was in a wheelchair and yet then in LA even after the night stock. Where is loose? People are still not locking everything It's still not clear to everyone in LOS Angeles, despite the fear and that's what we write a month to more murders after that and in in terms of at least people not doing as enough security. In spite of that panic and that fear what in fact how about the story of the computer programmer who had moved to LA had a girlfriend

uh, I think he had called home to his mother. His mother was just insisting he he just lock his windows and stuff like that, and he just didn't. Do it and no Ramirez got in there shot him in the head I can't remember, maybe shopping more than once, but you know his life. He lived that is like radically radically change. He could no longer work with a computer company The relationship with the girlfriend eventually ended here living back. I think it's Detroit with his mother and. Could tell the man was very better and in fact I quote from an article, but he liked to put this gallon so use some kind of tool on him. Basically torture. You know, remember it for for what he has done. But what's ironic? His mother was saying that very night lock your doors. This person is running around doing this stuff and it again yeah that

gas was very low, that anything will happen, but when the ball stopped rolling, it stopped at his house, and that was just a fluke and it turned out to be very deadly. He lived, but he was never the man that he wanted to be after that day yeah. It is incredible to you include a key I covered in another with another author name escapes me at this moment, but to. Case of the first citizens to ever capture a serial killer. And it was a a great a lucky they didn't have. Air conditioning was a hot night Yeah. The daughter, as you tell tell, tell us a little just in closing. Tell us this one. Now. That case is where he gay. End of the house, it almost reminded me of almost like they the same

case with the with the coming down from Indianapolis the nurse he was able to get into the house and trying to kill you know the daughter, I can't remember her name, but a struggle ensues, and this is Adam Leroy Lanes and he's a he's. A big fat guy, and it when people read the book they'll see that he must have considered himself like a soldier, of murder because he would dress up just like ninja garb and he would put on these various knobs on his belt and on at least one or two occasions even had one of these chinese death stars but he was going to do with that. You know, you know, God only knows but he got into this one house and the, the husband of the and the father of this girl, who was smaller.

Then yeah then Lane, but but boy his address old is popping and he was a wire he got he. Hot lane and was able to contain him. Just like The nurse was able to be contained by the dad. That's why I say the cases are almost similar, but but it turned out much better for this other family and, of course, you know that the police got there and they were able to capture himself. It was a it was. It was a very, very interesting case of This Adam Leroy Lane is one of the killers that absolutely choose to going homes by breaking in. He had clad in a locked door and enter therein, but you know his his. His trail of murder came to a close in that house, and yes, they did. They wrote a book on it and I quote from that book and they are the one american family that has update, a serial killer, and it's made it easier and I guarantee about by doing that, they saved

sounds of because had he not been caught that night, he would have killed again absolutely and Adam Leroy, lay with the kind of person that wants you got it in his blood. He wasn't going to stop, which is a normal thing for these types of killers once they get the idea and act on it and they consider- themselves, pretty good with it. They they want, red blood rush. They want that high. They want to commune with, with the p so that they kill and it becomes almost a mystical thing and they're not going to stop and bonding was like that. So these are not people. But killing people to commit robberies or whatever, and they just have to kill people. These are, people that are out just murder for joy of murder, and so yes, they can be.

Very proud that they stop this guy 'cause. They not only save their own daughter, but but they saved they saved future victims as well, absolutely alma. Thank you, Kevin Sullivan for coming on and talking about can unlock door in walks. Murder its been fascinating. It's an incredible book. Thank you very much Kevin for coming on discussing it you a great evening and hope to talk to you again real soon. Thanks, dad bye, bye, bye, bye.

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