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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. On a cool spring day in one thousand, eight hundred and ninety seven Alfred Haney left his Williamston Michigan Home to earn a day's wage. He knew his wife's peculiar behavior had become more frequent, and yet he had planned on

seeing the town doctor? But she assured him she was feeling much better there. Go to the following day. Instead, when we returned home that later that day, he discovered him a Cobb murder, so bizarre that it shook the entire community to its core is mother's. Severed head was set on the dinner table adorned with knife and fork on either side lying nearby was the old woman's body soaked in kerosene and set ablaze screaming Alfred Haney ran from the house and search of the law and while neighbors try to extinguish the smoldering beheaded, Corpse Haney's wife, Martha removed herself to the backyard and began digging wildly with her hands shortly after the Discovery of Sheriff's deputy arrived taking Martha into custody.

And lodging her in the local jail at the Village Hall England County Sheriff John Reilly, known as Jj among his constituents arrive by train and surveyed the carnage he and his deputy discovered the murder weapon, an axe hidden behind some boards under the

rear stoop Reilly organize the corners inquest that was held inside the house or the old woman's body lay in attempted determine her state of mind at the time of the crime. Local doctors interviewed the murderous. She told him. She spoke frequently with their own dead mother and her mother had told her to kill the old woman over the next several days. Court hearings decided or ultimate fate. A panel of three doctors were commission determine her sanity. In the end, there would be no prosecution deemed insane. She was sentence to the Michigan Home for the dangerous and criminally insane in Ionia. What made Martha, hey nice nap and be had her mother in law. The book that we're featuring this evening is to Hell. I must go the true story. The true story of a mish

begins. Lizzie Borden, with my special guest journalist and author rod, Sadler welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Rod Sadler. Thank you very much for having me I've been looking forward to it. Thank you very much very, very interesting tale again, one of those that bringing back to the history of true crime. Amazing, very story, amazing story. So let's get right to this and tell us a little bit about I guess first off we have to describe sort of the area and the time- and we are talking about one thousand, eight hundred and ninety seven. So let's go back to the late teen 1890s and tell us a little bit about Williamston and the state of the nation at that time before we talk about Mariah and her son Alfie and Martha, will. Williamston is actually situated in the mid

she can area within Enem County it. At the time it was just a small village located in the northeastern part of the county it only had become kind of a hub of of commerce over the the preview thirty or forty years the railroad had finally come through town obviously transportation, was by horse buggy or by train There was not a lot of telephones at the time, although I think the file when there there actually was a couple of them, but at the time As far as I've been able to tell vacation outside the way missionary was done with telegraph, the political find at the time. It was election year, the previous year and

Jj Reilly actually was my great Great Grand Father, he had actually run for sheriff in eighteen. Ninety inven been defeated then ran again in eighteen. Ninety six and one under the people's Union Silver Democratic Party, which actually was an offshoot of the of the day the original Democratic Party so They were kind of split down the middle over the, free silver issue, in the political arena, but he was part of the.

The free Silver Party and he was elected in eighteen. Ninety six and he ended up actually investigating this murder. Interesting now tell us up just a little bit about the state of the economy at that time, especially in this area, but just in general in the United States and tell us maybe what you know again: you've spoken to it a little bit but tell us a little bit more for people that again. This is all many many people what happened to one hundred and twenty years ago. Well, the nation had gone through a depression in the early 1890s and that's what actually split the Democratic Party in how they wanted to address the issue in the recovery from that depression and one of the way It was two coin what they called free silver at a ratio of sixteen to one or I can't recall the exact number and

and the other half of the demo Credit Party. If you will, they wanted to just support the farmer, so It really was. It's split that party down the middle they had slowly started a recovery from that depression, but I think overall at the time it was still, it was still very hard times. They were slowly making their recovery now tell us a little bit about Mariah, where you having in the book is that she, you don't talk too much about her married life but she is, was had another husband, she's, a widow, so tell us a little bit about Mariah and her husband. Before we talk about her son Alfie, will Mariah and her husband. They had actually been some of the first settlers in the area. One of the townships near they actually,

this murder occurred in Wheatfield township, but recent township was called Lock Township and she had been along with her husband, some of the original settlers there, her husband, actually he had been a civil war veteran and he Survive the civil war, but ended up passing away in 1870s, so he had been I'm gone a number of years, and they were farmers. They were farming, family and she ended up moving in with with her son and his young bride, in Williamston, in a very small shack? If you will, they essentially were popper she was very poor, as was her son and and his wife and they essentially lived off the community. If you will now exact what that means is for,

is one thousand eight hundred and ninety seven. Maybe it was the original form of welfare in that, maybe they just you know, big borrowed or stole you know. I really don't know beyond that, but all the news The particles in the research that I did indicated that they were very poor and they were so. Ordered by the community, so they actually, she had moved from the the country into. The city or right on the edge of the city, the Villa

with her son and and his wife. Let's go back a little bit because we have to introduce mark the LP's, wife and Martha had been married when she was sixteen and her husband was twenty one and John Woodward, and there is a story that you chronicle about that when Alfie meets or she has no children, he asked the story about it, and then you will also include the story of reverent sly and his rocky Beach benevolent association. So tell us about Martha and her marriage to John Woodward. It didn't last too long in the three children. What happened to the three children? How did she deal with those children and why is it that you came to the marriage with the and there were no children? Well, what had happened was she did very very young at the age of sixteen two, a gentleman from Ohio by the name of John Woodard and together,

she and John Woodard had three children. The original research that I did one of the newspaper articles indicated that when. Her. Youngest child was just old enough to sit up essentially, she disappeared with that child and on foot and she was gone for several days and when she returned the child was, one in the application was or the suggestion was that she had. Put the child out of existence and this was this, came to light as a result of the murder article that the book was about. They were highlighting the murder, and then they mentioned that the fact that she had married this John Woodard John Woodard eventually abandoned her. I have to assume, probably because of her mental illness, although I don't know

all that for certain, but he did a banner and soon thereafter, within probably three years she re she remarried a gentleman by the name, Alfred Handy that would be Mariah's, son and he was known around town his nickname was Alfie Alfy. And so throughout the book I refer to Alfie. I I learned later in in my research, for the book that in fact she had not put her youngest child out of existence, she had actually The child over to a gentleman by the name of Reverend Sly revel sly, ran a an orphanage in Lansing which is Michigan State Capitol. He, an orphanage for children, and she had turned that child over to him and the child was subsequently put up for. Adoption I was actually able to locate

in my research and original ledger from the from the orphanage, and actually found the original document that she signed over custody that child to reverend lie. So that was kind of a fascinating aspect of the whole story, but she did not kill our children. They were all turned over for adoption to the Rocky Beach Benevolent Association. What did she tell Alfred when she I looted to it, or I mention it that she didn't have any children in tow when she married Alfie? What did she tell I'll see about the children? husband. You know I had to make some assumptions there. The the actual conversation between her and him, starting the children. I I really don't know the the article, the research articles that I read

mention nothing about Alfie's concern about the children, so I have to assume that that he made assumption that hey they're, not here, I know, really ask about him, but I've Basically, the three children even so they had been turned up or turned over for adoption in an in essence played in a central role in in the cause of Mariah Hany's murder, and we can discuss that in a little bit here but I think that it was all over the children. Let's see also talk about what you do describe in the book. Two is when you talk about, they were poor, we're talking about a whole, I mean we have to you have to qualify. That, basically, is that that these were dirt poor. This is a dirty squalor,

that third living in and he doesn't work. You say that they have to live off the charity of of the community, but at this point in later on, he does get some work through the community, some labor work, and so he is busy for a change where he hasn't been busy for years. He's busy, and you also talk about the relationship between Mariah, his mother and Martha and right from the very beginning, you say that they really didn't get along. Can you tell us, did you find out why Initially, Mariah didn't like the daughter in LAW Martha. Well, I think that that she recognized early on that that Martha had some emotional issues, some mental health issues Martha frequently spoke with her dead mother, the The research indicates that she would break into religious fervor. Quite frequently

the inn at inopportune times- it. It also alluded to the fact that she had suffered epilepsy throughout her entire life. You know: does that qualify, is mental illness today, to you and me not by any means, but back, then before they probably knew what what it was. That was probably part of it in in maybe maybe because of of that. She was treated differently and and her mental illness just went downhill from there, but Marie, I did not like Martha and Martha, Inter did not like Mariah. In fact, on the morning of the murder she had made this, statement to Alfie that that that she, Mariah out of the House and Alfred, obviously it's not going to turn his mother out. He just kind of ignored the issue, but

there was a there was apparently we've lost our connection, I'm going to try to reconnect with you here shortly. Good evening, Ryan. Are you there? Yes, we've had. I got dropped here in the phone in the in the queue here. So I'm glad we're both back at it and I'll do so oh, absolutely, wait where we were last speaking about we take it from there. We were talking about the live, conditions with Mariah and Martha that they didn't like each other, and you noted that she probably noted that she didn't, like my So because of the mental illness that she had noted so and then I also mentioned that that Alfie for a change was working steadily, so tell us about, as you described in the book there was. They were right next door to a bunch of workmen and so tell us about some of the things that the workmen saw even weeks before in terms of the relationship between Mariah and

Well, the house was actually located next to what was known as the stave factory. They, the barrels that were shipped all over the United States and worldwide and it was a pretty big business for Williamston at the time they sold several thousand per year. And the house literally sat right next door to that and the workers quite frequently would see my Bertha and Mariah arguing and going at it. If you will and they would also often see Martha outside wandering around singing religious songs. It is a matter of fact on the morning of the the murder itself they saw mark outside singing and what they described as a ladle her head while she walked around the yard. So they were familiar that with

Martha and her and her mental illness, and they were familiar with the animosity that she had Porter mother in law and vice versa. Then they they sat right next to the to the house and in fact in a pivotal role in the discovery of the murder. Now, let's backtrack a little bit, because of course we have to get to the day in question now, as Alphys working he's actually getting steady wage one day, he sees this doc some way. So tell us how this conversation comes in. What is the impetus for for Alfie to suddenly think and consider that maybe he should talk to a doctor? What was it was a coincidence. Tell us about this incident with Doctor Shum Way

I think it was happenstance. Quite frankly, I think that he saw the doctor and he took he took the initiative to say hey, you know I'm got some problems with my wife. She needs to. She needs to see a professional. She needs to seek some professional help and pardon me the the doctor of course said you you bring her down the town's new about Martha too. They knew that that that she suffered from some mental instability, though I had seen her around town too so dark some way. I'm sure was familiar with her, also and when, when Alfred finally took the initiative to say, hey can bring her in to see you. He was, he was all about it. You know he was going to was going to

he's going to try to help Alfred out. Did he did he did Alfred? Could you didn't mention it, but you do mention in the book that Alford say very much about the condition of his wife in the behaviors wife. At that short little happenstance meeting you know I don't. I don't think that he did. I think that he just said that that she had some problems. You know there may have been. He may have. Alluded to some of the problems that she had, but essentially he wanted to to get her in the next day. If that was possible and of course, the doctor said sure bring her in because he was feet, I think the doctor new based on what he'd seen of her around town that that she suffered from some sort of mental illness to sell

the exact conversation that that was not something I was able to track down right, just for the audience as well. What was Martha's mother died. You say in eighteen, ninety, I believe, and she died in Ionia, where there is the asylum for the criminally insane. So did you is that it's his mother died. Did her mother die in the asylum for the criminally insane or just in Ionia, well that's one of the mysteries of the book. I have to tell you that The research indicates that she died in Ionia does not say the the be home for the dangerous and criminally insane, but I will I will say that Martha came from a farming family, He lived just south of Williamston on Lynn Road and to

no anywhere back in those days. You know a long distance, the real ways to do it by train, if you're farming community or a farmer in a small community I'm wondering what they would be doing in. I Onia, so baby done, Martha's mental illness and when I was able to find out later at once, the book was actually completed. I truly believe all I don't have any proof, I truly believe that her mother may have been institutionalized and may have died at the the same. Adam where she ended up being sentenced to again, I don't. How many proof of that I did try to find some of Martha's mental health records and those under Michigan LAW are all sealed. It doesn't matter how

old they are doing the Patient privacy act. You don't have access to him, so I was unable to find that out, but I do know that her mother died in Ionia and I have to assume that it was probably at the asylum. Now there was some indication Alfie had seen as well and obviously more. I had seen this as well that she did have a hair trigger temper marks out that there was some indication of of violence, so there were the ones that was in there, I think that there was yes. I've indicated that in the book, because because the two hated each other, they that animosity. It had reached the boiling point and I think that that there was probably that that one

point that that pushed her over the edge, and how violent it got before that there was nothing to indicate any Ical violence. I think it was strictly mental mental anguish, mental violence. If you will the yelling and screaming at each other, the the hate for one another. Let's get to back to the conversation with the doctor, so this is a Thursday LP says that he would like to bring IRAN, and the doctor agrees that then the next day might be a good idea. So Thursday night he goes home his mother and Martha so tell us how what the hold up the incident unfolds and tell us how he get through this bit of information. He does not asking her he's giving other information about the the

the doctor and the visit so tell us how that conversation transpired and what is her reaction and the mother's reaction tell us about what have you written in the book? Well, I think that that Alfred was essentially for afraid to to probably confront her about it. And so he said it more in passing, hey well they're sitting there at the dinner table, hey by the way we're going to see Doc way tomorrow, whether you like it or not. I think the the Mariah so being at the dinner table, feared that conversation feared that, Martha may lose it that she may become a a shiver, violent and and so, if you can imagine an old woman sitting there, you know a very slight old woman in 80s

trying to avoid a confrontation with her daughter in law. You know trying to eat and probably watch out of the corner of her eye for some sort of reaction. That's that's how I I pictured that conversation going Martha didn't want to go she obviously she knew that if she did she we found out from the dark wood German, that she was mentally unstable, Ann, and so she kinda shut down to the poor, where she went and and laid on the floor in the living room and- and she laid there all night wondering how she could get out of this doctor's appointment. If you will how she, avoid going to see the doctor the next day and and the only way that she could do it was trying to convince Alpharetta Ralphie that she was fine and-

and so that's what she went about doing the next morning. She she convinced him, hey, I'm much better. She put on a good show. She was smiling something that that hadn't seen in a very very long time and she convinced him hey will go tomorrow. I think there a plan was hey, we'll I'll convince will go tomorrow and maybe he'll just forget about it or he'll get caught up. And something else and and we'll just keep putting it off and it'll, be forgotten and I'll. Try to keep him convinced that I'm okay, and she did a good job of that. She convinced him that morning, hey I'm fine I don't need to go see the doctor well you have to understand that they're living their living as poppers and I have no money and for it has the chance that day to go out he's got. A job working on the streets he goes out to to.

In a day's wage, and so he, he's he say. This fight, hey. She seems. Okay, today, alright, we'll take her tomorrow, you know, what's one more day got tomorrow off I'll go out work on the street today, I learn a little bit over wage on that. Maybe that way. Maybe I've got some money to pay the doctor, and so that That's how that all came about. He had an appointment for her to see the doctor and she convinced him that she okay soon after he leaves for work because he's coming home for lunch at noon or so so he's coming home for lunch. The two women are arguing And now it becomes a little testy or more testy, because what Mariah sees is that the the framed photo of the frame that she has with her husband in this frame

But now that frame the husbands folder was not in there and it's replaced with a tell us what it's replay by and why Marias is so upset. What did Martha do well Mariah had a picture of her deceased husband, her civil war, veteran husband who had been gone for a number of years. She That in a frame and Martha took that frame and tore out the picture of Mariah's husband and placed it with a picture of her three children. When Mariah saw that She too lost it. She, She had had enough. She she lost it and when she and Martha got into it.

They began to shove each other, And at some point Martha went out, front door of the house and Mariah locked her out and that was all over the picture of the kids that she had net frame. Replacing the the picture of Mariah is dead. Husband. We've got quite the scene here, because this Mariah is eighty five years old at this time and she's, not a big woman and Martha is a kind of frail and not a big woman as well, but Mariah hits Martha and they they get into a shoving match and, like you say, the locker out. So what does mark to do now and before you do? You also included

again we talked about the stave business next door and those workers that would usually be witnessing their arguing between these women, and so they didn't think it anything out of the ordinary. They did hear them, arguing that day and even did see Martha briefly outside, but they didn't see what she did next so tell us what Martha does next. Martha at once, she gets locked outside her temper. Her temper is boiling. She is she's reached the breaking point. If you will she she goes around the house and she gets an axe and she because she's now locked out of the house, the the the workers, the statement all saw her locked out. They had heard that the women arguing, but it was- It was an everyday occurrence they but nothing of it- ok, Martha's locked out loud,

down to the front of the house. Let's go back to work big deal so so What they don't see is Martha, go around to the back of the house and grab an axe. Martha bring that x back around to the front of the house, and she begins to. She begins to hack away at the front door while Mariah is inside even she can Mariah, can now hear this this loud banging on the front door and suddenly she please the head of the sacks coming you know slashing through the door and essentially Martha ends up taking the door right down all knocking it completely off? I think there was one hinge left. It was hanging on one hinge.

And then she's face to face with her mother in law in the living room and she's got the ax in her hand and go ahead, so I didn't want to stop there so she swings? The axe and she knocks Mariah down- and I have to to preface this by saying that the newspaper articles were very, very descriptive. An and some of the injuries to Mariah, and so Martha Knox Mariah down and she swings a second time and mrs or but then next, a third time and essentially Knox Knox.

Mariah out. She then stomps on her with her feet. She tells later an interview that when this, this crime is being investigated, she tells the people that she's talking to I jumped on her as hard as I could with my feet. So now You've got Mariah, lay there in the living room, near death, and Martha realizes, hey. I've got this sacks here and. She's got. You have to assume that she's, probably a little ticked off it at Alfie too. Because Alfred wants her to go see the doctor. So she wants to. She wants to give Alfred a little present, little wipes gift. She takes the axe. And she commences to chop

offer mother in law's head, and I can tell you that if you're beheading a person. It's not Easy task: it's not unless you're using a guillotine or guillotine ten, going to get it in one whack. In the newspaper articles describe several hack mark in the floor with embed flesh in gray, hair in this living room floor and once Martha succeeds in chopping off her mother in law's head. She begins to panic she's like now. What do I do? What am I do with this. What, if someone figures out that I did this you she's got a million emotions running through my mind, so she decides hey, I'm going Well, for the present she

fix up your mother in law's head and she carries it to the kitchen table and she said sit at Alfreds Place, setting on a plate, and then she adorns the plate on both sides with a knife and fork silver ware, then she looks at her handiwork her mother in law's bruised and beaten had on this plate. And then she goes back. To the living room and she drags Martha's body to the kitchen. Her headless body, Mariah's body,. Then she takes some kerosene lamp and she douses the body in kerosene and or left to the body, and then takes up. Again from the stove in it's got some some potatoes in it I'm cells out under the floor and in this pool of blood, and she reach is into the stove and grab some some hot cold,

and put him in this pan, she place the pan on the floor between her mother in law's legs, hoping that the heat or the Kohl's will set. Her body on fire and it does it does and at that point She this essentially into the bedroom, about that same time. Alfred Haney's coming home for lunch He's walking along Alpha had this way of walking, you walked kind of hunched over with his hands behind his back. He was known around town to walk that way and so he's what Kind of hunched over kind of looking at the ground doesn't really notice a little wisps of smoke coming from inside the house doesn't really notice, as he walks in that the front door is only hanging from one hinge walks in and he's a

asked what he sees. Can you imagine that site literally Can you imagine how how Riffic that site would be uh. I can not. I was a police officer for thirty years. I've never seen anything like that in I've seen some pretty bad stuff, but. He sees that he screams He runs from the house. He's he's going to find the local deputy who's who's assigned to this little village of Williamston About that same time, the state workers next door. They hear them pardon me they hear healthy, scream you look and he's running away and they, notice, the wisps of smoke coming from the house, they figure he's discovered that his house is on fire. They've got no idea. What's going on inside they, completely forgot about the two women that were arguing,

and so a couple of them run over and they they grab buckets of water they start throwing it through a side window of the house trying to about whatever is burning inside. They can't see in there because of the smoke at this point Guy runs around to the front of the house, who runs in past this front door. Hanging on the hinge And he is stopped in his tracks. By the grizzly horrific scene that lays before him he's got Mariah's head on a plate. He's got a heap of something burning on the on the kitchen. Floor, he grabs a bucket of water and pours it on the on Mariah score If you will and extinguishes that and and now he's trying to take it all in, he is frozen and he's looking over. At Mariah's had on this plate and yet some

these people here this story in there like is this true yeah. This is a true story, I gotta, tell ya. I was astounded when I read this. He looks over. He sees the the head on the plate, he he's now extinguished. The body which is on fire was on fire and he looks up. Just has Martha comes out of the bed. And she's in her what they called back then, as a princess you, Union shooter her underwear, if you will, and they make eye contact and he's frozen, he's he's not it can you imagine, you must think you're in a dream or something he's frozen there. She turns around and goes back into the into the bedroom, and he is still trying to take it all in and she comes back out and she goes into the living room and Neil

on the couch and begins to peel wallpaper off the wall. She She moves the potatoes around a little bit before she heads into the in the living room. Potatoes that are laying in in Mariah's blood on the floor She goes in the living room starts peeling, the wallpaper off at that time. The the witness Miss Robinson he decides add think time to go, get the law. So he it's the house, after he leaves he's going to look for the sheriff Martha ann- Zap, going out the back door to the house and she begins to dig in her in the backyard quite frankly, I have to tell you. I think that she was probably planning on bearing gonna try to bury the body when the. When the deputy arrived

she was as the papers put at digging wildly in the backyard with their bare hands. And they confronted her with a grand yeah yeah, can you imagine that because, The deputies already been informed at that point by Alfie. What's happened and he's, let I mean his backups, probably thirty miles away so He and the the witness approach her and he asked Cerises Martha what's going on and she says I killed my mother in law And so he has the whip stay with her and he goes in the back door and he Two is astounded at the site that lays before him the the head on the plate, the burned, corpse, laying on the floor, and

and he immediately steps back out and they put the handcuffs on Martha. And take her down to, the local village jail. Now by Michigan law. You talk about that. There needed to be an inquest when there's a death like this, and so they have to cobble together six male men, jurors and the CS classes this basically to determine guilt that what happened and and so there's only a couple witnesses, including share of John Ray, really Jj. So just briefly tell us how that what happens at this inquest before we get to? what Martha how marker reacts in prison? Well it what happens under Michigan LAW it in it's much like today. Only it's done differently today in a court room, it's called a preliminary examination where it's. Like a mini trial where for evidence is presented and the only

The prosecution has to prove is whether or not a crime was committed and. The raptors reason to believe that the person they're committed the crime, that's all they have to prove they don't have to prove any elements of the crime. Essentially, so back in one thousand. Eight hundred and ninety seven, though, I had to the law required an inquest be conducted in front of the body. Is that tells me at the house? It had to be done at the house. And in my research, I learned that the that the should Drift didn't leave with the prisoner till late that afternoon early evening. So that tells me they had the inquest they essentially roundup six local men and they have the sheriff test. Fire about what he saw when he got to town and they

who had the first witness in the front of it and that went in the front door and discovered the head on the plate. They had him also testify. And this was in front of the justice of the peace, the local town, justice of the peace and clearly, there was no question you have, there's been a crime committed and yeah she's, already admitted that she did it sell, there's reasonable cause to believe that that she's, the person responsible so she's, essentially remanded to the custody of of Jj Railey. My great great grandfather and so he loads, are on the train and he takes her back to the small town of Mason, which is in in Ingham County. It's actually, the county seat for Ingham County where she's lodged

Excuse me for the murder of her mother in law. No would would surprising to me is that in eighteen, ninety seven, the courts are as sophisticated. It would seem as as today, I'm very very surprised in eighteen. Ninety seven that there just wasn't that there was an assumption that there was no such thing as insanity, so they really take. Your defenders. Take this insanity, defense and she's, going to get examined by a psychologist, so tell us how seriously they take this insanity, defense in terms of of assessing her and and having as part of the the the trial, that's going to happen. Well, the insanity defense actually goes back to the eighteen sixties and- and I briefly discuss that in the book right back over in England, instead,

where the the insanity defense in order to use it insanity defense there certain stipulations that that have to be met, and once that was set back in the 1860s. That would the the base for the insanity defense here in the United States and that was essentially did she know did he realized at the time of the crime? whether or not she did anything wrong. In fact, during one of the interviews with with J, J really she is that or it might have been with one of the doctors. If She had killed her mother in law and she said yes, but I didn't do it to be mean well that, obviously there's there's some mental issues there

If I had done it to be mean she makes it. She leads to some statement. If I had done it to be mean, then it would have been wrong or something along those lines, but clearly I I think even we even without statements like that you have to you, have to look at the totality of the of the crime and clearly that is not a woman. You know twenty seven year old woman who beheads her mother in law and sets it on a plate, I mean I don't need a doctor to tell me that the woman's got some mental issues. You have a message for every budget. Go ahead. Sorry I was just going to say so. Everybody recognized that obviously Jj really the the sheriff recognize that the the justice of the peace these when she was arraigned, recognized that the Circuit Court judge

judge when she was taken on the following Monday up until dancing for the circuit court, the judge we recognize that, and it was his responsibility. To appoint her in attorney, which he did and her attorney recognized that so they weren't working in concert against her. They were really working in concert for her. Knowing that that she had some some mental issues, and so the doctor, I'm sorry that the judge had to Take it upon himself to appoint a commission of three doctors to determine her sanity and they they essentially we're Bree on the crime. Talk to the people involved, interviewed her family, an

and discovered that, in fact, she wasn't saying you have to understand that. This crime occurred on a Friday she is to jail on a Friday afternoon Saturday and Sunday she's in jail, while the sheriff prepares the paperwork she's arraigned on Monday, She goes to court on Tuesday, where a commission is established to determine her sanity- and I Wednesday morning. She's declared insane based on the three doctors up. The commission, and And she is shipped off to the home for the crew insane on that same Wednesday, you're talking about five days time, including two weekends

that is virtually unheard of in today's society. Absolutely unheard of oh yeah, for you just had a you said, woman woman in custody for improper lane change for three days, so yeah yeah, exactly exactly I was going to ask, is when did speak to doctors about or to Jj John Rayleigh about the voice is commanding her. She said she spoke to. When is it? That is it is it is Is this something that came out later or was there a record of witnesses to say? Yes, she spoke about speaking to her mother and then after she was arrested. When was it that she spoke specifically of the voices from. Emanating from her own mother. Well, when she was originally locked up at the village jail

immediately after the murder, when Jj got to town, he knew stamp on the crime and what he had seen that that she probably had some mental issues so he cornered two doctors. That he knew, and they were the only people that that she would talk to in the and she admitted to them. I killed her and she said my mother told me to do it- my mother said killer or she's going to kill you. So she spoke of of that. It within hours of the crime Welch is still in the local village jail it wasn't something that she had time to. You know well when they talk to me next, I'll. Just tell him that my dead mother told me to do it. No, she she she she admit

to that immediately at the jail that that her dead mother had told her to kill the old woman and she maintained that position throughout the weekend when, when Jj talk to were she she, and recognize her own brother. Her brother had come to visit her at the jail on Saturday. She didn't recognize him. She would at the jail she would break into religious fervor again it was. It was just a very bizarre situation is a matter of fact on, the title for the book is based on a song that she sang at the jail. She would stand there in her cell and she would sing I can't go to Heaven to Hell. I must go. Murderers, don't go to Heaven. So that's where I must go, and I thought that's the perfect title right there to Hell. I must go

so that's actually a part of the ditty that she would sing at the jail and then she would she would just collapse in the number liver cell sell to answer your question. Yes, she did immediately after the crime speak of her dead mother and how her dead mother had told her to kill the old woman to kill Mariah. Now you talked about the three doctors in her defense, speaking to her mental illness or insanity or schizophrenia, but yet the same time, he said, unlike most khaki cases of trials where this adversarial system, the prosecution, was kind of going along with the defense. In that there was an agreement. Is that

this woman was insane. So that being said and being the time of eighteen, ninety, seven and surely some kind of, even though it's a short trial. Why did they need three doctors? Testimony that may have been a you know to be honest with you, I can't answer why there was three other than maybe that was the procedure that they had in place rather than take one doctors word, for it will appoint a commission. Excuse me. I know that the the research that I do, indicated that the judge himself appointed commission of three doctors, so that was the which is doing, and I have to assume that that was based on some sort of legal precedent, maybe from some previous insanity cases where they're not going to have one doctor, we need to have

three doctors in agreement that that she needs some help now she's in this hospital, like after she's after she sentence till the asylum for the criminally insane. Here of the maybe can tell us the exact title, because I've I don't have it right in front of me, but tell us about the conditions in the hospital and her behavior when she's in the hospital from people depend who heard want to feed her want to speak to her, but I have to tell you that the because of them because of the the Patient Privacy ACT I don't know how she acted there I have to so that that she acted much the same as she did on the outside world. I do who I did some research on what life

was like inside an institution. At that time there was a book written in the 1860s or 1880s by a woman with the pen name of Nellie Bly Bly, that was her pen name. She was actually a reporter and had been hired to pretend she was insane so that She could report on the conditions within an asylum in New York. All the asylums at the time in time period essentially were the same as far as the treatment. All the research I did indicates everybody use the same sort of treatments at the time although there some breakthroughs that Doctor Lee one who ran the home for the criminally dangerous, dangerous and criminally insane in Ionia own. Martha ended up

I was trying some new things using a homeopathic approach to curing mental illness and that was treating a more essentially treating a more like human beings rather than animals. But yet with that being said, I think that the troubled employees still had not employees, but the troubled inmates we're still treated how much the same as they were around the country, and I have to assume that that Martha probably was one of those I did did find some original papers from doctor long at the archives, and they indicate that the inmates at the asylum were allowed to to roam free. Within the building that they were confined to, but they

did have small rooms. I can't recall exactly what they were called, but but for the troubled inmates, if you will where they were restrained and things like that, so I have to assume Martha, probably had good days and bad days, both before right before we. I know this is more of a question to were wrapping up, but we still have a few minutes, but I want to ask you this question. In light of the recent decision with Mister Holmes, the the Batman movie Theaters Spree Killer mass killer and that decision to deem him not insane criminally responsible and sentenced him to I haven't. This is, can be executed, but definitely ignoring the insanity that eat curry. You know definitely was suffer

and from in light of what you and this sort of not adverse aerial situation. Where judges recommending three doctors too, a confirm her mental illness or insanity. What do you think just? What do you think from one hundred and twenty years of insanity in the courts any ice? the prices, I think we can conclude. No. I think that that the the shame, I think that the same, what's the term, I'm looking for criteria, the same criteria is essentially used today. That was used one hundred and twenty years ago. That was that was actually set back in the 1860s with that case in England, and it comes down to

who did the the person know that what they were doing was wrong? I have to be perfectly Frank with yeah. I did not follow that that trial, well in Cala Rado, I'm familiar with the circumstances. I think their horrific, an I think, that, given the circumstances that I'm at least aware of their there's no question that he was involved. The question is, did. He know right from wrong and beyond that. I can't. I can't speak to whether or not I think he was insane, because I don't know what what we brought out at that trial, but obviously the courts had to support that defense. Attorney's decision to seek the insanity. Defense. Just because

the magnitude of the killing? I mean that it was absolutely horrific but again They are using the same criteria, essentially that they did one hundred years ago, The person know right from wrong. Well I mean it using the same criteria not to get into a bit debate, but I just I just find it odd that if you were to give MA and a application to that an politics with standing, sometimes whether a person's insane or not or whether they knew right from wrong. Becomes less of an issue and- and it's just retribution period and people are certainly not satisfied- that a person like homes or anybody else in the insane killer, like that would be, would have any possibility of being out of an institution, and so they don't. They don't think that that person, the punishment, should be institutionalized as insane. So they want to guarantee that this for

given a criminal, a prison conviction. Well, maybe, yes, maybe no, because there they're there been high profile cases where the person was deemed responsible, but insane yeah. I can think of assassination attempt on President Reagan, I can think of the assassination of John Lennon and those are the you're just too high profile ones. Where you know those two people were loved and adored and and those two people Hinckley and and the other. Guy's name escapes me, but they were deemed insane and- and I think the public one would want send them to go to prison. I No, I did and when they were deemed insane it was

I don't know- I guess you just have to let the system you have to the system work and- and hope. I didn't think it was very good. I just think it's a very. Cavalier as and your story has. It was very, very surprised me this book in the cavalier approach in eighteen. Ninety seven, that's that's really only the point I'm making is that I think that it's, I am very, very surprising that they would come to that decision quite easily and quite readily. Given you know the heinousness of that I mean. Obviously, we've been desensitized to the some of these killers over the years have discussed on this program as well, but one thousand eight hundred and ninety seven in a little place, it's not so common right. So well, that's true and in it was a completely different time. Back then, too, yeah yeah understand that although Lansing was the the state capital and part of Ingham County

rural Ingham County was was was rural and very small and you know. You would think that, wholesale say: oh yeah. She needs to go to prison, but yet they wrecked you know we've seen around town. We know that that she's got some issues so clearly I don't think there was any question that she was insane. And maybe that's why everybody supported yeah. You know what she needs to the institution for the rest of her life. It's the same this prison they knew she wasn't going to get out and in fact, go ahead. No go ahead Sorry, I was just going to say a man. In fact. She she only survived a year there and what happened or she ended up dying. I think it was about thirty

eighteen months later, she died of tuberculosis at the institution. She was not really eating or taking care of herself, so she did have a pretty rapid decline in her. Didn't she she, did and, and I I think that that Tv probably ran rampant in some those institutions she was a very slight woman. Anyway, you know for twenty seven years old and she was very very gaunt sickly. Looking So I have to wonder if maybe she had that even before, even before she can this heinous murder. Maybe she had to be Kilo, Sis and, and once she was institutionalized, it just went downhill from there. No in the beginning, you mention- and you really haven't exploited this, but unless I miss her, I miss her. Do you said that Jj Rail.

Was your great great grandfather. Yes, he was. He was my great great grandfather. It was, I I have to tell you this whole, Came about from Genealogical research I was doing. I came. I was actually just looking for old crime articles with his name in am to kind of document. What he did is sheriff back in the 1890s an and I came in cross this this article titled awful deed, which Actually, I used that is one of the chapter titles in the book and The subtitle was woman chops off her mother in law's had with an axe, and I thought well that's interesting it's that morbid curiosity that cops have and then I saw that the date was was kind of in the range I was looking for and I quit

and in size name, and I just stuck with me. I said I've got to write a book about this. And so I spent years literally years, doing research on it on again. Again, you know when I had time and then when I finally retired I said it's time to to put Grampus storied up to paper, and I did. Well, that's what we really haven't really explored and then for those that are going to pick up the book and further look into this story, because they've been compelled by this interview is that you really do do a character. You introduce us to this character that your great Great Grand Father an you really get really into it, because it's when she's put in prison with Martha's put in prison, it's Jj that sits out front of the sub, noting that maybe she's

suicidal are thinking considering maybe she might be so he's very concerned like that very hands on and his wife goes and feeds her, so we're we're talking about a very end. You bring us right into the story of this compassion for this woman, despite this incredible heinous nature and it wasn't like everybody hated this Alfie Haney guy or the or the mother. There wasn't like there was any animosity towards that, but I just I got a marvel at this story at that time in in history that there was this compassion. Rather than just this disdain for this woman, there seems to be a comprehension of her mental illness, which I think

is abnormal for that time. Well, I have to tell you that that you're, not the first person that has said anything like that I've had several people that have read the book that have said you know you almost feel sorry for her at the end of the book and everything that I found it and let me preface that by saying I did, I didn't write this book to make my great, great grandfather out to be a compassionate. Hero type. No put down everything that I found regarding how he handled Martha and the your situation and how my great great grandmother was also involved in that she was the jail matron. That's typically how it was in the 1890s the share S. Wife was the matron and she would cook for the prisoners. In fact, les you're in the book. I mentioned how

while he was away on a trip at later. After long after Martha gone to prison great grammar, really stopped to jailbreak. With with a gun she caught a guy trying to break out of jail, but They were very, they were very compassionate people. I found nothing nothing to indicate that they Mistreated prisoners or anything like that, though just the way they were, and so this book really offers it off is a glimpse into a horrific grizzly gruesome, murder in eighteen. Ninety, seven, it offers a genealogical look at my great great grandparents- and soccer zone am I in

to 19th century law enforcement in courts in Michigan and that those were the three things that I wanted to do in this book and I think I've succeeded absolutely it's a it's a fascinating step back in history and in of course, includes all that context that all true crime fans really strive for, because, together comprehension of the crime, you need to have a comprehension of the time, and you also need to have a comprehension of the characters involved. And so it's been fantastic read this hell. I must go and thank you very much for coming on and talking about to Hell, I must go so. Thank you very much. But I wanted to ask you if you have a website or any way for people to contact you Facebook, so they might find out anymore information or any other work that you've done or in those rare circumstances, people might want to contact you.

I do have a. I have a facebook page ride, Sampler author, that's our o d S, a d, l, e r, author, and I also have an email I'll address, I can be contacted through right Chandler author at g dot com, and I welcome inquiries. I welcome speaking engagements and I just wanted to take just a quick opportunity to say thank you for allowing, need to talk about this. I'd truly enjoyed it well,

the pleasure was all mine, end, I'm sure the audience as well. So I want to thank you very much and have yourself a great evening. Thank you again for this interview. Great thank you Dan. You take care, goodnight, bye,.

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