When you drive with uber what moves you moves us? That's why we provide drivers with the option to sign up for instant pay, so you have the power to decide when an where you cash out. What moves me is my niece back home. I always try to send her something I know she'll love, that's what moves me uber! What moves you moves us get started with instant pay when you sign up to drive with us at uber, dot com, drive experiences driving with uber. Very drivers were signed, resounded with into can cash out of two five times a day term supply

link and they're gone to find out who they are without us all. The more reason we come to West Virginia to introduce them to simple things like rolling hills, mocks in the forest, warm campfires, and we hold on to that feeling for as long as we can find your version of Heaven. This fall at wvtourism dot com. Yeah

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week. Another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zukoski. Good evening. This is your host dancer pass key for the program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Michael Greis bag had been a prosecutor for twenty two years and thought he'd seen

at all, but nothing hi. It's Jamie progresses, employee of the month, two months in a row leave a message at the high Jaimie hit me Jamie. I just had a new idea for our song with the name, your price tool. So when it's like tell us what you want to appear in the trombone goes blah blah blah and you say, will help you find curb which options to fit your budget. Then we just all do finger. Snaps will acquire goes statements coming savings coming out. Yes, no, maybe anyway, see your practice tonight I got new lyrics for the rap break. Progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates pricing coverage limited by state law, prepared him for the case you're about to read and hear about a true crime story where the good guys are sometimes the bad guys and the bad guys, the good it's a case of violent crime with a mind numbing twist, but mostly it's a case about innocence and guilt on July 29th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five

Penny berenstein set out for a late afternoon, jog along a remote stretch of beach on the lake Michigan Shoreline unaware that just minutes later, a deranged sex offender would shatter her world to pieces. It would be a job that would change her life forever in more ways than she could have imagined within hours, police and prosecutors. Zero. Stephen Steven Avery and known offender, who was out on bail for another crime armed only with suspicion and lacking a warrant, they dragged their suspect from his home and took him to jail. What followed was a twenty year crime saga, the grip higher state made Steven Avery a household name in Wisconsin and left the local justice system nearly in ruins. My special guest this evening is journalist and author and prosecutor, Michael Greis back, and we're going to try to connect with him again we're having technical problems. I just was speaking with Michael

he's back for the last ten minutes or so previously getting the show back on the road again from being disconnected. So we. I can see the numbers on the screen, but piano you there. Yes, I am ok Dan, it's MIKE egg. I hope together, ok, hear you on the phone, so I'm hoping that our audiences is hearing you live. So

I'm sure that's what's going on! Ok sure! Ok, so I just introduced your books. So let's get down to a little bit of the introduction of this story. This story occured in one thousand nine hundred and eighty five. So but your book starts, you start and will ask you to explain why it starts on July 14th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five. So let's go back to that must be important. Why you started your book that and describe I've seen that you first described in the very beginning, your book on July 14th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five sure yeah and it's a shacking start to the book and the real I started with it was it shows. I think that there were this dangerous, sociopath really and the loose Angela Fourteenth. Can eighty five and really all that summer,

the reader to see right up front that there is a very dangerous social path, like I said on the on the loose the police had a pretty good idea of who he was, but they didn't have enough to bring him in. So what happens after that? The reader, hopefully in the back of his mind, is her his or her mind is thinking. I wonder if this guys up to it again, because it quickly moves on to that that that you described that the main part of the book opens with ok now. Did you just call me- and I we're connecting via that method, yeah, I think we were we were in before for some reason it got disconnected, I think, but we're we should be on together now. Hopefully, ok, so the number you just called is this blog talk number right, correct, ok, got it, I'm just

I'm a little were frustrated from me to glitches here, so I apologize to the audience for that now. Let's, let's start with this, this, where this story is actually set in, Manitowoc County Wisconsin. I know the population is around eight thousand. If I'm not in correct, tell us what this little community looks like and what it's really like describe it for us and geographically, where is the this county sure why I live here, I'm still a prosecutor here and that it's a wonderful little county little area, your listeners probably are familiar with lucky I go of course remain about the candles Milwaukee well made talks about another ninety miles, north of Milwaukee, thirty miles south of Green Bay, the home of the Green Bay Packers right, which work

proud of hearing Wisconsin, of course, and it's a community that it's actually about eighty thousand at eight thousand and eighty thousand quite right and we're right on Lake Michigan, and it's a real in that area. And it's just that. You know part of whisky incident, the first crime occurred and remote section is, and you are reading a beach and weakness again in a state Forest Cobb Point Beach State Forest with a woman who is dragging along the beach. She was in the habit of tagging. She was a fitness, physical, fitness instructor at the YMCA, and we had a six mile jag per day, really up and down the beach, but a very desolate part of a lake Mi Beach, where the first crime occured right. Now, this you talk about her having this should be a dedicate

jogger, and so she went on an one hour run that day and that's important to this whole thing in terms of evidence later in terms of really defining when this attack occurred, which is again later important, so tell us a little bit more about penny. What she's like did her family at this point? You say she goes on this desolate part of the beach. Why would she run in this place? That's out of the way, tell us a little bit about a little bit more about penny. Why she was doing this this this our run and then what she finally encountered. While she was jogging that night absolutely well pinion or husband, and they had two children by the way they were

actually sort of some prominent people in the community. They were business people, they ran a confectionery or a candy store type of operation that Tom Bernsen's grandparents actually started. So then it talks a bit of a touristy area this candy shop, sharply a tourist area and they basically took their kept their children to the beach that day, and, as we do the day late afternoon comes along a penny, decide she's going to take her her jack, I'm she was very set and the public each where they were. It says it is a regular public beach, pointing people there and join the day, but when she took her JAG from their she went north of air in a very

it becomes a desolate area. She had passed a sort of a scraggly looking fellow on the way away from the beach as she continued Jagging Norris didn't think too much of it although he had a leather jacket in it. You know it's in the mid 80s and she kind of wondered about that. I think I need some time into him, but it's on her way back forty minutes later that this fellow basically jumps out from behind a popler tree or Bush close to the water right at the beach penny. I don't wanna go, the whole book away, but I think that the people will the readers and your listeners, so they need to know what the first kinds about this kind of a complicated story, but then he goes out into the water. She tries to run away from this creep by stepping over there is and not able to do it.

We thought about diving into the water, but she was afraid he was going to grab her and strangle or and how he overpowered aran manhandled over her over the side. The sand dunes, basically she's a very petite woman, but she's also a very strong woman and by the way, penny appreciates the fact that this book was written, she's, very supportive of it. She wrote a blurb or a review on the back of the book. She's playing with us using her name and she's gone on to do some really good things in the criminal justice system, but anyhow it despite her kicking and struggling trying to push back against this. This assailant He got her over the sand dunes header, where no one could see her, then in the forest

and just brutally attacked. Are what, if you don't mind, could you give us some of the details? Some of the particulars 'cause they are important later in in terms of this story, sure uhm? Well, they you know the claim itself. It was turned do, of course it was a sexual assault. You know the law, at least in the United States, doesn't really distinguish too much between a completed act of sexual intercourse frankly or different types of sexual contact in terms of the charge no wait in with gatherer first degree. Sexual assault is whether whether you know it's sexual contact without consent,

with force or whether it is actually sexual intercourse without consent, and it really doesn't matter it matters to the victim Antennae fortunately, was able just threw kicking and screaming and pleading and not given and in her mind she wasn't raped in the law under the laws eyes. She was because he tore off her clothes and when she that my husband will come looking for me. He swore used every name. You could imagine he pounded her brutally on her face. She received serious injuries. Tenney was left naked, worried, badly, bruised completely dazed. Staring off into the waters of Lake Michigan after this cell left just a horrible crime as bad as it could get for any woman to experience of sure. Certainly

Now what are the some of the things that, if anything did he did say to the victim while he was there? You know inflicting this is damage on this woman things like do it now or I'm gonna kill you things like shut up you you know you can you can fill in the obscenity obscenities very far from there. Just an animal, cruel kind of violent type of person gee, I'm sure glad she wasn't. Gonna live had a had and knife, he was going to kill her there's, there's no indication, the police didn't find a nice, but she certainly certainly felt that he had one. She kept her wits about her by telling you know she's going to be late, getting back to her huh, then she sure I'll be out looking for her believe, a failure. To wit,

In the end, I think that's what saved her, but after a while after he beat her basically to a bloody pulp, he he ran away scampered into the woods I'll get a look. Did she get at the perpetrator in her mind? How good a look did she get? Did she did get a good look at this serve the assailant yeah. Well, she felt she had a pretty good luck. You know they were afraid to face. The attack girl did the winning over fifteen, maybe twenty minutes period? It was this. Wasn't a real, quick short confrontation. She had with him in every heritage, drag her from the water up to the to the woods and then, of course, the attempted rape or actual rate, but nonetheless up. She thought she had affair. Really good luck. She knew that his eyes, for instance, were brown.

She knew he had brown eyes. She thought he was had, but we refer to here in Wisconsin is a little bit of a beer belly. That was a term used to describe to the police. He was bearded. Uh anyway, the medium medium height roughly so that's a description. She had 'em, so at five thousand six hundred and fifty seven Yeah right in that area is what she said. I think that, right by some ok- and so she was- how does she issue is who finds her on the beach and how did she get to the hospital and how this outer things work from there. There was a couple failing and show in the area, and she had tried to make her way, basically crawl to the water to wash the blood off of her face. She didn't want her children to see you that way,

type of saw, her came over wrapped a towel around her real quickly and about the same time, her husband Tom Burns and came running up along the beach. Frantically looking for her. He had already sent some some kids on a jet ski n looking for her and he had already called that's amazing. He already called nine one one and there was an ambulance waiting back at the parking lot at the beach shall win when he tried the actually carried his way down the beach until she got sick and then she walked the rest, the way that's how she was found, and then she was taken quickly to the last battle in manner to work, which is slightly larger city here, where I live and work in and treated at the hospital. Now, how did the people police proceed with the description that they did have? How did they go about? What's the next thing that they did.

Well, they they took her eagerly. They always take a physical examination. They have the physicians. Do we caused us? Forensic immigration and uh. The sheriff in stuff got was not sure new once I think it was from church and off of it. My great there for us in Lockport. It wasn t about allegations, but he did. One penny gave a description of her assailant hand at that point. The police after the detective was there a female detector

The name Stephen Avery came to her mind on the meat in Franklin, and it was on the train right that it's deeply did just what police should not do they close their minds and they thought he had appeared after all and he lives sorted near there's he with known offender in the area, and I I guess reasonable, that they thought it was him, but they close their their minds after that, and just just out up with just Every must be the guy, basically rightward we're having a little but a problem, mom hearing everything that you're saying so, I'm not sure if it if it helps the sting and one position or what we can do to, but we have a problem missing a little bit of the information at your imparting herself.

Alright, let me let me try to maybe if I just a little bit there, the connection will be better 'cause. We were good. We were good there for the first little while there for first fifteen minutes. So ok, ok, so now you say that will have to go back just a little bit too, you say that there was a physical exam of penny bernsten and then the woman that was there was Judy Deputy due divorce and right away. She said it came to mind for some reason and we you can tell us why. The reason is because their her relationship to Steven Avery is important like where she lives so tell us why she thought that and what was her relationship and what did she know or what did she think she knew about Steven Avery Sure-

and this is one of those problems with smaller counties, where everyone knows everyone or leaving a lot of people, do their duty to work the first police officer at the hospital, the interview, penny birds and lived across the street from state every ain't. She knew that he was. I deal for trying to assault a different woman in the neighborhood intact. That in itself was a pretty serious crime he had based. Run down a woman, a neighbour, a different neighbour, of his He got in his pickup truck and rammed into her car. Basically an had her pull over to the side of the road he held her at gunpoint. And clearly

you had in mind that he was going to assault her. She pointed out that her baby was in the car. Even that is, is he wouldn't go pull up a circle, but, oh so here this person was on bail on a pretty horrible crime in 2D Dvorak. So under new about that crime, she knew more about memory, because his neighbor was I and then. And the victim in the case Avery was on for the pending case was the life of a deputy reserved deputy sheriff, so the police kind of had Avery in their consciousness. I think that's largely why he came to her mind so quickly. Now,

The thing is, you say police, but really it is more so a specific sheriff. I missed pronounces. You can correct me cook Eric and really be. As you know- and you can explain, this elaborate later is at fault, but the sheriff did goes along with deputy duty to work is the sheriff Corrigan he ends up being you know. This is an interesting story where he, ah of those strain turn of events, happens in this and a lot of things that aren't known in nineteen. Eighty five come out much later, so tell us a little about sheriff Coke Eric and hopefully that's the way you pronounce his name. So it's the shared coup. Sarah time could surrogate yeah sheriff soon, as he heard. Here's the name Steven Avery he he had the deputies at the sheriff's department, bring up some photos from mug shots.

And basically I wanted them to include one of Stephen Avery I believe the that at the beginning, it was Stephen Avery the do. As we indicated earlier, you have deputy who was on the scene. Deadly dirty diverge was every she use the name Avery and she found it certain about it, for whatever reason, so, let's sheriff Kucirek at that point, but now it's probably Steven Avery, so he had a photo array prepared by the forty did there. He had a police artist, his did detective crochet do come to have it with a description from penny burn from and where they, the thing, where least in

opinion, in anybody's opinion, I think they had the mug shot of Avery on the scene when the composite sketch was drawn anime. Basically the composite sketch the police gadget looked almost eighty, That way like every much so makes you wonder whether the police artist didn't take a look at Avery's, shot and kind of suggest to the victim while he was doing the the composite sketch. Well, maybe the could the person look a little bit more like I have to It's hard composite sketches are tough. When the person has facial hair, you know because people with beards you're missing a large part of the features of their face. See it, and I lived with eye color handling, hair and that sort of thing. So then the sheriff you know nor about the Avery silk, so he was mine.

Happy to make a case. Is he thought that Stephen Avery was was his geiger? Now, let's go back just a bit, because I think maybe the audience is not fully aware. Maybe I'm not fully aware too at this point. We talk about this heinous crime where he pulls sheriff or proposes woman out of a car, and there is, if I'm correct, not corrected. There is talk about dragging her into his vehicle, so

you know I didn't you say the sheriff knows about his past and and the woman that lives across the street. This is deputy thinks these days she knows his family so that they instantly think that this person- that's capable of this rather heinous rape and assault on the beach, has to be this guy. Is there a sexual? This is Steven Avery. Have a sexual history may be filled us in on all the criminal past that he has so that maybe we can understand what they think that this person is capable of in certainly soon as there is some suspicion that they pick him up and run with it. So what is it about his criminal past? That implies that he's able to do this crime of this nature? Well, I I tell you he was a disturbed individual there's. No,

what about that? He had an incident when he was about nineteen years old, where he was involved in a cat burning incident. He had also threatened to start his parents home on fire. He had it been convicted of burglary in the past and you know, most importantly, did at this case pending that happened six month earlier, where he was. He was away to battle. He was out in the community, but when this claim occurred, but but he had been charged six months earlier with this. Incidentally, technically raining this woman's car neighbours car off the side of the road, and he had kept an eye on this woman. For the months preceding I said he was a very disturbed individual and really he was. He would watch her with binoculars

on the road is she left her vehicle, five hundred and thirty six in the morning in the summertime he ran out to the road naked right front of her car one time he he masturbate at the heart of his truck, while she drove by me live once one happy, I guess that way the attic yeah so They called it reasonable that basis per yeah yeah. So that's what I wanted to make clear that the audience knows it yeah did you know that and ended in a description, a talk about while he hasn't been convicted of a violent crime. But those are all the hallmarks of a guide is capable of what they're looking us out. Looking for us back so I again it's a little more reasonable why these police could jump to these conclusions. However, that's not the way things are supposed to work now. What what happens when now continue with the story then, and what does peace policed

now that they think they have Steven Avery in their sights. What do they do, but they go? pick him up day? The sheriff doesn't do it through an warrant tat which, in the United States and I'm sure in in Canada, to you break into somebody's home, you you need to get a neutral, detached magistrate. They com, a judge, allow that in to say that there's probable cause that that person committed this crime and that the police fired into his house arrest of in this case they didn't, they use anaemic, I think they they had Stephen Avery's uncle. Who also was a sheriff deputy and they used him to get into the house a minute they arrested Avery the only thing they had at that time and and again you know you can look at what they did at that point. It is reasonable at this point. I think what they did is still

reasonable other than that getting a warrant. I guess that's a hundred pound grow a great there by the sheer in terms of thinking. Every was that it was reasonable because at this point the dictum remember had done the composite sketch with the police jam. He actually picked, Avery out of a photo array, where there were six or eight suspects and she was able to say yep, that's the guy who did it and that was Steven Avery's breeze shot. However, it be pretty clear trial that once they did the composite sketch in her mind that Composite sketch, not the real but in her mind that sort of, because her assailant, but at any rate you know they had an identification, so they felt at an animated around no going back just a little bit when you talked about three the earth, the the coach, I think you were pronounced his name, the visa,

what did the Komposit drawing and he just been out of the FBI Academy for about a month. Let's, let's talk about that as well, because he was totally. I think this is the first drawing wasn't it for the police, so now. What are you aware like what you know for those people made even myself? What are you insinuating happened there like not to say not to accuse but say and the sanction of what may happen with this young guy and the sheriff and the deputy and a small place and a character like Steven Avery? What do you think happened? Well, I don't. I don't know for sure, and I I try to let the reader that out in the bar 'cause. They look at it, but but I I can't say a few things about that: Composite Eugene Crochet that detective the eldest police are very proud of that catch sketch removed from it

answer was allowed to do it and headed hanging up his walk through the afterwards MA afterwards. Judge at the trial mentioned that that sketch- and these are the judges- words Bore it- an uncanny resemblance Who did much tat was in the sheriff packet that made at the hospital and the last thing to sit here. That eventually- and I took her yourself here- but in there wrongful conviction, goods like these remind will let the cat out of the bag here, it's called unreasonable in France is of course, because in the end it wasn't Avery that did this, but it's lawsuits that the defense lawyers convinced that they pretty well had approved Jeanne Crochet, the police, herded luggage pretty much either

he's dead, are quite trays but drew it had some answers to that. Much as he was doing, this gap right catch. I can't prove that, and you know him Jeanne crochets Nolan, but he was actually very nice person. I did someone with him, but he was a character and I will say that sometimes police, if they think the they have the right guy. Some of the rules get bent a little bit and their minds just to do to do what they think is. Is justice getting a bad guy like Steven Avery off the streets, yeah, and then I mean the prosecution can be. Prosecution can be also accused of that as well,

and you gotta have want yeah. Ok out was so what happens with these Stephen Avery is is arrested. Where is it that he is a rested and in terms of when they obviously have to question him as two terms as to where he was at the time of this this crime? And then, as we remember from the earlier in the story, this woman noses specifically when she was attacked and the duration and everything else we know the timeline, tell us what happens with Steve Avery in police arresting him sure. Well, it restroom in his bedroom at night, he sleeping with his wife and their upstairs. They have five children and they had just come home from a shopping trip, basically up in Green Bay. About thirty minutes, north of where, where this occured occurred, it was, it was virtually impossible for Steven Avery to have committed this crime.

The pan. When the claim happen, then, where every was able to prove he was there was the receipt from the shot go store, which is a department store here chain, basically in Wisconsin, showing five hundred and thirteen pm and the assault any burns, and it keeps right very good tracking time she was a you know, a routine runner. She ran. She knew how long thing stuck and she had her watched. The assault ended at four hundred and five p dot m we can I about an hour and thirteen minutes. Steven Avery with his family, including the newborn twins at the check out color of a shot store, thirty miles north of where the assault occur, but he so would have had to have gotten from the local. Should I be assault back to the parking lot? That's the only place the park there in ST shoes

three quarter mile, walk and even home to where he would have had to pick up his wife and children actually to his parents. House. Excuse me with is about twelve miles away. The police ran a it was possible for him to commit the crime given the receipt at Qapco, ten or fifteen miles over the speed limit, just to make it possible, and that doesn't even include a staff to pick up the kids and get him in the tire and that sort of thing right. So pretty implausible and the other thing was. We originally heard that this scraggly man at the beach had a leather jacket on and so tell us a little bit about that intriguing part. The description and the the leather jacket sure at any burns and was clearly at a black leather jacket and a pretty good description of the black leather jacket when it got close to trial.

We didn't find any leather jackets when they did a search warrant that Stephen Neighbour's house in vinegar the trial all three or four days before the trial. The prosecutor Dennis Vogel the DA at the time sent a letter to the defence. For your saying, oh by the way, I'm gonna call some witnesses these two officers. That say they know they had seen Steven Avery with this black leather jacket that matches the description perfectly of the black leather jacket. That any said, her assailant was wearing D, like an energetic you're, really quickly to that Stephen Avery had blue eyes any burnt, send a victim immediately called the police and told them. So I think that her assailant had brown eyes. She D also called the police that the assailant was had a sort of a beer, barely thirty projects and that he was right

about five six, I believe Well Steven Avery- is only five feet, one inches tall and at the time he he wasn't pudgy and Steve re, as I said, had blue eyes. She also told the police in the police were very interested in this issue. They were hoping that she would say that the assailants hands Greasy and that they were smelly that he was kind of he smelled at, because they knew that Steven Avery's hands were always greasy because he worked at a car salvage shop and he professionally had greasy hands. Penny birds had said now: her assailant had perfectly clean hands, know Greece, no dirt. No grain and hay feel it smelled. Frankly smell good he's. Who was nothing know how old are about it? I think there are lots and lots of inconsistencies, including the

alibi that Avery had twelve or fifteen. I think witness is. It said he couldn't have done it cuz. He was with them all day at the salvage yard right and what does his wife say? What is Steven, Avery's, wife, save and the hill? With the five kids, I mean what we did. I haven't mentioned as well. It's just six days before they have twin boys, his wife than and Steven show another just another thing to put the story is well add: yeah yeah. I try to get them out of it in the grip of Avery family. You know, as I also you want, your your readers to know what these people are like, but you don't want to make it real boring. You try to get out if you kind of unusual things- and I tried-

we have somewhat of a description about that by by explaining how they named their children, the two twins that were born. They named him William and Billy Junior. So I don't know if any of your listeners are familiar with the american movie Deliverance, but it's close to that there at the old Avery salvage yard, yeah yeah yeah, you get that picture with the bill and William and they're just totally oblivious that this is the same name or that anyone would consider it the same name. So it's yeah there's some some antidotes that kind of properly illest, that's for sure, now you're. So how else do? How else do please proceed with this continually sure? Well, you know they don't have a lot of evidence really other than the idea

application by the victim by many birds. They ignore a few other things. They ignore the fact that penny received a phone call from somebody who she believed was her assailant a couple days after the crime, not an unusual thing, as you know, with sexual's her other social pass to call their victim after, and you can imagine- penny at home recovering a couple days after leaving the hospital receiving this call from this guy who says you know, is any there and or his time there, and he knows her number. He knows where she lives, presumably, and this this is the em all who turned out actually did assault a birds, but anyhow Steven Avery was in jail with no access to a phone, so it couldn't have been him, but the police ignore that they'd

help any. Not you you must do you have the right? I let Us Hanover saw the boy did their training in when it gets to the prosecution. That's that at the trial is when the case, I think, really takes off in terms of how the system is not supposed to work yet like tell us about the trial. We have some interesting characters at trial. At first, we have of the court appointed at defence attorney. Is a woman named Risa Evans Marcin, yet again problematical in that name, but she's, a record court appointed lawyer tell us, there their mean that's an unfortunate thing. She seems to be a real fighter and believes that Stephen Avery is innocent, so tell us what happens there and who ends up being a tell us about Judge Fred Hazel would in his reputation that the judge before of all this occurs sure every first quarter plant lawyer reflex,

Evans Mercy message. She ended up telling reporters and other people years later that she wouldn't even go to the beach where every was but where they assault occurred. She would never go there because she's dead I believe the real assailant was out there. So this is somebody who really believed in their clients innocence. Frankly, you know most of us in the system down here is prosecutor or is a defense lawyer. Even the defense lawyers get pretty jaded after awhile and they do. I really believe their clients and they say they're not guilty. Hopefully we're not charging people for guilty, but she was so convinced that her client was innocent, that she would not go down there to investigate the case or take pictures or talk to people or anything penny filed. Eighteen motions: excuse me that penny reset the first attorney filed eighteen motions in court. I think one was granted in it was clearly meaningless motion

and then she became ill. She there was a physical illness and she had to leave the case Another public defender was been appointed and had to come up with speed. Really quick judge fright he saw it was the judge in case a trial judge, and I am hoping that it comes out and awkward. The judge. Yet there may not be too many of those laughed. The very Canada down to earth friendly humorous judge trying to do is past and the trial. You know it's really. A broker includes alive at the trial and how trials work out. Jury selection works. How I jury gets sequestered and was in the United States now spend time in a hotel, it's Corsica, cold time. It's in January, when this or December I should say when the dial occurred.

I'll say one other thing. Just maybe there's some interest from your listeners here to the timing This trial was about two weeks before Christmas, in do member of nineteen eighty five and, if you're a criminal defendant in a serious case like this one, was it's hard to get a worse time to have a try well in around two weeks before Christmas, because the last thing the jury wants to do is: send a victim white penny burnt, some home with a mad guilty verdict by any set up on that stand and explained you know, and and was so good at explaining to tramma of everything that happened to her and was a very, very sympathetic person and as much as the jury would look at this and say you know we can't find guilt and less. It's proved

and a reasonable doubt. It would be really tough for them to send that not guilty verdict, because that would just crush her and writer. Christmas people, people are dead Sugar plums are dancing in their head and they're worried about their shopping and their their not paying, perhaps quite as close attention as they should be The legal issues like proof beyond a reasonable doubt and circumstantial evidence and credibility in that sort of thing sure. So now the what are the charges officially that are levied against Steven Avery? What is he potentially up for to be convicted up? Yeah is charged with first degree sexual salt and it and murder of those of the charges any facing, including at the attempted murder. Ok

Now. How does the trial proceed? There is obviously some things at a judge can allow it in a trial unless there is something in the the what audio in terms of the jury ass election that you found interesting, tell us how the trial proceeds or starts off. Tell us about some interesting aspects, of the trial right at the beginning sure were first about the jury, relatively small county like ours. Eighty thousand people there's a pretty good chance that some of the jurors might know some of the police officers with a name family like the Avery who had a ladder troubles

you're. The jars knew at every San hand, tat those things come out. Others heard of a built in prejudice as much as you do. Try to make sure that doesn't happen a child, but you know you had jurors answering questions about wealth you know they've and how well sure I used to you know, know them from school before you know. Johnny got- kicked out of school or something like that. So some of those things would come out and then, at the same time a few of the jurors were you know this police officer with a church Wesson. This one was my boy scout, my sons, boy scout leader, things like that. So it's a tough jury for the Avery for Steven Avery to have as far as the child self. You know, if you don't have the goods trial side. What you do is you

you play to emotion. English prosecutor should not do we're supposed to be interested in. You know, truth and justice. Frankly, has more to do with reason- and this is the proof of this- ask knew you had a week. He really played on the jury. Sympathy I quoted point where you had been the victim penny and her husband, TAT, basically reenact the crime in front a jury not quite all the way, but he had pennies husband. How her assailant grabbed her and what you know. So he pushed her under the ground in their pen is on the ground with her husband and type of her. I'm only using those to try to show the jury how horrible this crime was an early rely just then and sympathy. So the prosecution provocation didn't have much when you don't have much time

you know will explain what you doing. Sorry explain why. That is a problem. Why do you have a problem? With the I mean, I thought it was quite unusual having someone other than someone from officially from the court being part of the reenactment and put in there. The husband in there seems to be an emotional ploy, but other than that or speak to. Why, specifically, this is so raw. That the not only did the prosecution resort to. But then again, how did the judge allow it and how did the defence not object to it and how was or was it not grounds from some form of appeal for us simplistic folks how to explain why this is wrong wrong? You know, don't like it, course car, it's a gray area. It's not a question of you absolutely can't appeal to emotion or you absolutely can't camp

reenact a crime with her husband it. A lot of this is in the discussion of the trial court. If they're going to allow that sort of thing, this judge thought I guess that it would help the jury able to see what occurred more help a jury understand the crane. Perhaps I think you know what he attempted murder charge. The prosecution could argue that exactly How the beating occurred would be relevant because we have to show what called unequivocal intent to commit the murder that he absolutely intended the killer. So exactly how the assailant grants her and what he did with her. I suppose

could be deemed relevant and that just appeal to emotion. But as a prosecutor and and a lawyer lawyer, you know I just didn't pass the smell test. I know when it prosecutor is doing something just to show imo. And having her husband there, and these are wonderful people and having her basically re, victimized and cord and bringing that picture to the mind of the jury. Really isn't what we're supposed to be about. The jury should be looking at evidence based, and you know mostly reason

What is this really shell and in most of this trial was mad. So much about reason is what a horrible crime this was, and we think this guy did it. So therefore, please just fine and guilty and will put him away. Is there any responsible responsibility on part of the judge for not being able to for allowing this type of evidence in this question You say it's a grey area of which so there it it be open to some interpretation that would think wide. Is there any responsibility for the judge in this decision to allow this information in this way. Stepped in and that allowed the reenactment, but you know the judge doesn't know anything about the case other than that he's given in or so he's not privy to all the information. The police have he's

activity, other information that might cast doubt on the states case. I know he did, he did that the real assailant called any while everyone jail for judges is not quite in the same position. Know we can kind of Monday morning quarterback, I guess and say well, may the judge shouldn't have allowed this better, the other thing, but there there. I don't want to say just as a referee, but they're not the mean the main party they could in, and I think a good judge will limit that kind of appeal to emotion is unless there's some good reason to do it. You know, is some Regarding pictures of penny shown the the jury Europe was that necessary. I don't all close call yeah, ok, so

now what would slit Steven Avery is? He is he who is his supporters other than his lawyers? Obviously acting on his behalf? Is there any interest, and is anybody looking at this guy as an innocent person as he have any surf? prisoners. It is family there to support him. I would imagine they would be, but tell us about what what what kind of support is Stephen Avery getting wow large large kind of expanded. Awake at daybreak clan is what came to be known as an friends too. They had some Different people who are at the salvage yard that particular day when this crime occured with Steven Avery, so they had about fifteen witnesses, actually testify that Avery was working with them and a project that is and had

at the salvage yard and a lot of women who are inside the house watching by taking the divorce cord Ashley. I shall we have down here damn and then, and I'm sure there were other people in the audience at the time too, and then, of course, you know his lawyers both believe so strongly in his innocence and bother them for years as EVA Rees appeal failed after he was one of these letters, and it just severely affect in those years. What am I to bother them immensely to know that he represented some guy who, he was sure, was innocent, but it was spent a year after year. After a year in prison behind bars, ok, well, we got ahead of us a little bit, so we now know that tell us with these.

Cast of characters exactly how this trial gets to the point that he is sentenced. What is he sentence two and tell us the wrap up of the trial? What you know you put it in the book that Steven Avery in his face We, especially Steven Avery, were totally surprised by the outcome of this. But how does the trial fair in terms of somebody just being an observer in terms of Steven Avery's chances and then, ultimately you for already alluded to that? He is ultimately sentence. So tell us what happens in the trial wrap up and what is he sentenced to sure the jury goes out of any in the air in the late afternoon, one day and they can't reach a verdict that first night and then they asked first semester

since they wanna see his shoes or his boots, and I think it was to see we're guessing. I guess, but they wanted to find out. If there was any sand on on those shoes is what most people would have thought. The police had confiscated his shoes that night and they're looking for sand. That was on the beach. I suppose they would have seen it fan they. Let that wasn't didn't do much for him, and then they were out another later that next evening, the secondary deliberations, I believe it was when they walked Avery over from the jail was the sun was setting can afford. Thirty at night, and and winter time better called here, and he and his family stood to hear the jury pronounce the word. The word guilty of both counts, attempted murder and first degree,

short Judge Hazelwood, two or three months later at the sentencing hearing sentence, Mister Avery, two hundred and thirty six years or excuse me thirty, two years, prison in prison, the Wisconsin state presence. So he was shipped off to out Dad Correctional Institute in here in Wisconsin is the receiving institution for anyone who sent to prison, from a walkie or any other part of the state. Now we only have a few minutes left, but I'm we're we're gonna go a little bit extra. I if you can stay with This is, for you know another few minutes after that, because you're were nowhere near into the this incredible story and that's why it's so involved now he is sentence these shipped off to prison. I thought was interesting part of your book two is that Alan Avery, his father, called the judge immediately after the sentencing, and maybe you can tell us this little anecdote because again it shows

character of the family and the Father church yeah Ellen Avery, Stephen, every father called the jet asking for is guns. Vaccines is weapons and and dad the judge basically said he needed more information and he they weren't hid his guns. And then Alan Avery said that he's going to start making his own probable cause determination's if he doesn't, if he doesn't get the guns back, so

Any sent this letter actually called, I should say, called the judge at night and asked for his guns back in the judge, sent a letter back about probable cause and and neighbors response was well, I'm going to start making my own probable cause determination's. If you don't get those guns back to me, yeah yeah. That's interesting, now tell us how you became involved in this case. At what point, and how do you proceed with this and why I mean what I talked first. I think it to the audience. Maybe was the first introduction, but I'll talk about it now I found it very very unusual. I don't know how often this would happen, but a prosecutor trumpeting the case of of a convicted person.

Is is usually done from the defense attorneys that are digging some up or from law schools where you know the innocent projects where people are looking into cold cases where people claim that they are innocent and they look at the merit of those cases tell us how you got involved with this and why yes, honey. Ask that because my wife narrator prosecutors conference right now and I'm wondering how some of my cohorts throughout the state of Wisconsin there are thinking of this, because I've known that I've written this book and the Steven Avery case was a very high profile case. And I

I just started to have married a cold and I wrote an hour in our whisk answered BAR monthly magazine, but I tell you I became involved in and I wrote it because of what happened is I became involved? I wasn't here I vehemently when the rough conviction occurred, but I was here in two thousand and three when we got a call from the state Kramer Crime Laboratory with Gazprom, saying that the DNA Evidence- and this case evidence from here that was located. The victims, body pennies person Back in eighty five, I would still preserved in evidence and the car- was that the dna came back to NA to Steven Avery but to a different sex offender, a known sex find out who was in imprisoned and his dna within the prison.

A bank sex offender bank and was guided by the name of Grigory Alan. Here. We are eating years after Avery was first sentenced to prison. Coming out in the fall of dna tat, it was a different area, was Gregory Alan and we started. This show. The first question you asked me was at first scene. I started with that claim before the claim to penny births. Two weeks before in July of nineteen. Eighty five and that was Gregory out Gregory. My Allen had been committing horrible worse than he very leading up to penny burdens attack in eighteen. Eighty five and I dont know how much time we haven't. I don't wanna be to too Conclusi too much conclusion here. I had a tank, but

You know the police were really wanted watching Gregory Alan and they other police departments were convinced at the time it was Gregory Allen and even a but they didn't go after Gregory on they went after Stephen Avery. You talk, bout, Gregory Alan as well dead that the one interesting part of this you know was that you had spoken to a woman and then you also happen to find a file that wasn't supposed to be. Where was was where you did find it, where a complaint that have been put into another I also explain that turn of events 'cause. I think that was a little bit of Lhasa turning point. You know that we're turning point in terms of information for you, you got it it was actually why we were still on the conference call with the attorney general the crime lab from medicine with hands and indicators

is. The dna belong to this Gregory Alan. So I went back and pulled the file, the nineteen eighty five file back on the Steven Avery prosecution. While we're still on the phone. I came across a complaint again, Gregory Alan, the name she had just use the name I never heard of before this criminal court. It was in the every file. And I looked, and it was the same data birth It was is a criminal complaint where Gregory Alan, the real assailant here, have been charged with trying to commit the same type of offense, basically lunching at a woman who was walking her dog along the same stretch of beach and Lake Michigan. So here it gets a little complicated, but here now I know that the prosecutor who prosecuted Avery Dennis Vogel had also

executed? Gregory Alan, the real assailant free very soon, Miller praying that occurred almost exactly a year earlier. On the same beach and the Alan complaint was in the EU, every file tell you my heart just dropped. I knew something wasn't looking right here at that point that that this just wasn't an accident. It was just way too coincidental. Yeah well! Well, that's it! It's just amazing that debt that turning point in how you conveyed it in the book as well as very, very important, and it just a little bit of chill up your and when you realize you can't you can do this more than inference. You know you're putting this two and two together, so they railroaded this guy when they had a real, credible, dangerous person that easily they could have figured out who this was its very essence, very strange, very strange tale.

Now the thing is that there were glad of courtesy and, as you know, the under the grey area in the actual assailant who day who they did not pass cured because they railroaded Avery, he was left free. He was out mad in prison where they belong, he brutally raped the woman in Green Bay eight years later, because he wasn't in prison where he belonged from the from this case. He broke into her house and attacked her while she was sleeping so here's the case in one other thing thing could the prosecutor at the time in the Avery case Dennis, although who is the one who wrongfully convicted Avery, he staff members of the days off his actually came up to him during their case and said, look we think you have the wrong guy. We think it's Gregory Alan, they can Ryan was in court and other things and

like the day tat now I checked with the criteria. Innovation in the agent said that there are problems now said he had an alibi that he was with the issue that he in Killarney a different city: thirty, by not all day well, the attorney general's report after we took it to the attorney general's office, ended up making. Clear, they Gregory Alan, wasn't even an probation. So it is pretty clearly intentional at that part of the district attorney, although he and the police proud We I'm sure they thought it was Avery in the first couple days. They soon discovered that it wasn't Avery, but that whole feeling of well he's a bad guy, and we can't turn back now so too bad. So sad, let's send him to prison. That's exactly what occured here well, kredible, malicious prosecution, certainly and uh, with devastating a repercussions. Now it takes you

a few years to get Steven Avery out of prison. How many years exactly is the fight to the? Finally, you say at this time he's in there at eighteen years. How long does it take to finally release him? Well, we moved once we get the physical evidence round, he had been appealing twice. It went up to the state Supreme Court. I am, there was denied by the first. The court of appeals and then the state Supreme Court did that one here it and it came back again to the court of appeals it It became apparent even during those appeals that the state was didn't, add, sharing all evidence without exculpatory evidence with evidence that It has a tendency to show that the defendant is match guilty. The appeals were based dip on the state withholding or at least allegations at this state was withholding some of that evidence, but any

both appeals, failed and then the innocence project finally got ahold of it, and the dna was was determined to be Allen. At that point, we did not feel comfortable just based on the DNA to just release. Mister Avery immediately, because you know we didn't know all this at the time and it's funny how one piece of physical evidence the last her it was a pubic hair to be tested in this whole file. Eight. Years later, when one thing we had left king, the real assailant Gregory Alan, but before we did that, we wanted to look at the whole file to make sure that, just because that one here was there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Avery wasn't somehow and- so we look through those boxes of evidence poured through the all night actually, and it became is clear that no every wasn't guilty,

no other evidence other than a faulty identification of them under weird circumstances, with the composite drawing and we quickly did a stipulation with the innocence project and even he was released from prison about three or four days later, goodnight course right. What was the last thing you just said. Sorry that is was his release was with a lot of media attention, cameras, tv cameras and and newspapers out from all over the state, and even the New York Times had an article about this person who had had in prison for eighteen years. So whenever he walked out of prison, he was almost an instant celebrity in Wisconsin. And he got himself a good attorney and he was looking at a fairly sizable income or up a compensation for his time in prison. Was me here

asking and thirty six million dollar lacerated what they have filed? I'm sure they wouldn't get there, but it would have been well into the until the double digit million dollars. I'm sure now up there into this story comes in, and this is the huge surprise in this story and distant amazing. Mazes part of the story is a woman named trees, a hall back, and how does she want, and why does she want to go to the Avery Residence, the scrap yard? What's your reason for being anywhere near that property right? This is about two years after Avery's released from prison and in the book I go through a few occasions that I had contact with Avery at one point in the deposition in the wrongful conviction, lawsuit and a different trial. I did where I think you perjured himself, but but this is

now, it's two years after he's released from prison and all back was a freelance photographer from this area of Wisconsin. Appleton Wisc actually and she is called out to the Avery salvage yard there by her employer after Steven Avery called, and specifically asked for her to come out and take some pictures of a vehicle that he was putting for sale in the car trader magazine so he had been out there a few times before to do the same thing and then this particular the date. It happened to be Halloween actually of two thousand and three October 31st. Two thousand and three three went out to the Avery salvage yard in Rural Manitowoc County. To take this picture of a car that Avery was selling and what happened to Teresa Holbach well,

Teresa had gone missing on that day and about three days later, her mother called the authorities and told the police that she seen her daughter in three days and that one very unusual Teresa didn't liver? Their parents sat later on, but she kept in close contact with him and immediately a manhunt started. It became clearer after not too long that she had this appointment at the Avery salvage Yard, the police, when out there they did a quick look. They did not see her vehicle. She drove a suv around four hundred, I think, is what it was and uh they. You know they of course, look at the last place, she's known to be, and that was the Avery salvage air, but at first they did not see her her vehicle, so they left.

Your eyes time goes on. It's getting worse. Sad story is getting media attention throughout the answer to this You know anyone that goes missing. Of course, it's a story, Trisa ha back was was I don't know? How is the face of a beautiful young woman well known well liked. She she was missing and days went by and she still wasn't so her family and friends. There was a group of volunteers that were searching for her and away actually that group about a week after she went missing.

Where are they re savagery property? They let him come on and they are the ones that found her suv, dairy concealed with his corner of this, which yard and so what they did they find when Did they find her body on the property? They they do it. They should have been backed off right away. They call police and I inquired the time myself, so the police arrived in the day and myself, I'm an assistant, yet we arrived at the scene actually, it's kind of a long story, but I had run for day. It was the day my ended up doing the job anyhow, but long story, but the two of us right there and let the police lapses. Media helicopter, the narrative,

I'll never forget, police dogs is turned into night. Have a nice fall day turned into a driving cold rain, as we were searching for what everybody thought was likely to be Teresa's know we didn't, we didn't have that we had her vehicle, but that night, the police dogs, on a a burning barrel, basically in in that burning girl Teresa's, remains, were discovered, discovered along with parts of cell phone. Now we will leave the story here for

now it will. What I'll just add for the audience is. Is that term? The fact is that when he got out of jail, he got the he was looking at the huge settlement are. You said he was an instant celebrity. There was a lot of sympathy for, of course, what he injure being wrongfully convicted and railroaded and being in prison, and it was really exe After that that would there had been a police conspiracy, obviously share of the deputy and everyone else. So that was an accepted thing and now, with the Teresa Hall back and her body being found on the property were hearing the same story. So again, I will go

the rest of the book. Awake is it. There is still a lot more to happen at such an ironic twist. I think, and I think if people can keep that in mind. No, when I finish this book, they realized my god yeah. That's that's an ironic waste if there ever was one. So I want to thank you, Michael for coming on and awaiting the story of this book. The unreasonable, inferences, it's a great book, and I I want to thank you for it. We're coming on and explaining it so very well for us. So I really appreciate and began to pleasure, of course, people, king and you get the book if they wanted to Amazon or at our website they could look at WWW, W Dot, Dat, unreasonable inferences dot com. All one word unreasonable, inferences that camp, don't wanna too

my own horn horn, but people do say they. You know it's one of those things you just don't put down and it's this story. I think more than anything, it really is an unusual stranger than you know. Truth you can't meet stuff. I'm sorry! absolutely, and you know it's just a story that isn't like you say it be a page turner. I was I got a fake Kim trail at two through crime book reviews. Returning on, I probably wouldn't known our would have known a lot later. Let's put it that way, so I wouldn't really want Baker for introduced I'll, send and send, as a results of you would have been a great guest and talking about a great book, and it's very well deserved it. This looks a little bit different than a lot of books because of the perspective that you

Did you have being a prosecutor and then again later, like the person that gets him out of prison, then later is going to investigate a crime that again this guy's accused of again. So it's an amazing twist, it's one of the most incredible stories with just when you think the thing is ended. No, read more to come. So thanks, very much Michael in and have yourself a great evening you today. Thank you very much. Even listen to reproach am I to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the others that have written about them. Thank you tonight. When you drive with uber what moves you moves us? That's why we maintain auto liability insurance on your behalf, so you have peace of mind right from the start. What moves me? That's? A big question, definitely family. I just want them to know. I do this for them and then I'm ok when I'm out there ooh what moves you moves us

get started with auto liability coverage when you sign up to drive with us at uber dot com, slash, DR the strategy will uber area. Is your cell phone bill out of control than this? Is your wake up? Call the new track. Tracfone wireless gives you unlimited talkin tech, starting at twenty dollars. A month, no contract plus unlimited carry over data with active service up the new track phone wireless now you're in control, see terms and conditions, attract, owned outcome.