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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy Dahmer the night Stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. This January film rise released the chilling true crime documentary unseen from award winning director and producer Laura Paglin. For two

years, women had been disappearing from Mount Pleasant, a poverty stricken african american neighborhood in Cleveland, with little investigation from police and city officials, then in two thousand and nine are reported, rape led Cleveland, these to a grisly discovery, the bodies of eleven women decomposing in the house and yard of known sex offender, Anthony soul. How was it that a serial killer was able to operate virtually in plain sight for two years, told in riveting detail by the women who were able to escape soul most deadly clutch is unseen, draws viewers into a world where marginalized women plagued by drug use, shun by society and dismissed by the police become easy prey for a predatory monster. Unseen questions, not only the police failures in this case, but also wide solos neighbors turned a blind eye to his bizarre activities through in

commit revealing interviews. Paglen gives voice to souls victims allowing them to tell their stories showing us how the attempt to come to grips with their horrific experiences. Unseen was in an official selection at Cleveland, International Film Festival and Dark New York City. It was also a contender for the social impact

ward at Green, which International Film Festival and Documentary Award nominee at Portland Film Festival on scene acts as a haunting indictment of a police force that failed its citizens. The subject of our program this evening is on scene, a true crime documentary about the Cleveland, serial killer and the women he prayed on with my special guest producer and director and co Writer, Laura Penguin welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview Laura tagline. Thank you. Thank you very much incredible unseen boat, Anthony soul. Tell us when this was released. You saved it to just released, to tell us how it's available and tell us

when it was released, and just tell us a little bit about these film festivals that it was premiered at ok. Well, it was kind of a long process, because the film was, you might say, released in Film Festival's started exhibiting at Film Festival's in twenty six teen. However, I didn't secure distribution until twenty eighteen with film rise. So now people can watch it on Itunes and Amazon, and I'm sorry I forgot your your other question. You yeah just want to see where was available and is that it is as of we mentioned in the introduction. As of this jam,

Where so the end of January it's available. Now it is yes now. I just look basically at use your I m d background, so it tell us a it. Doesn't look like from that background that you'd be interested in something like this, so tell us how you came to do this film. Why you wanted to do this film? What you thought you would might be able say with this film, tell us a little bit about why you wanted to do this film on scene, okay, yeah. I mean I've, never really done anything involving true crime before I've never had any particular interest however, might perhaps documentaries of dealt with kind of like say the underdogs of society? You know the last film I did called the facing forward. A student's story was about a a young inner city teenager

here who came from a very kind of chaotic background, and he was put in this very rigorous, strict school. So this kind of a culture shock for him, and so the whole film like follow him for span of several years and so I deal with that and another another film that went to Sundance was called when umbrella election day in the city and realize it's been a long time? But you might remember that the two thousand for national elections was a very, very close one, and so the whole film takes place at this. One polling location where this eighty two year old City Council woman, who is about five foot tall, is trying to get enough voting machines for again these inner city people to vote with so

so yeah I had it. I was more interested in, I guess, per people So yeah you would think well. How does that really segway into something like this so kind of a long answer to your question is that when I heard about these murders in October, two thousand and nine I kept telling myself no. I was not interested in doing this, but it's really literally the scene. The murders is about fifteen minutes from my house, so I kind of just created a reason to go down there and

and again I didn't want to be a Cocker act. I couldn't think of what I could possibly contribute, because they were so much press. There is press from all over the world and you know if that will work in the in the end of this is just being covered. It's very depressing. Again. What am I going to contribute? So what happened was? I was working on another film that actually kind of took place in the same neighborhood, so I create an excuse just to go there. I thought it. Women all just get a few shots of the house. Maybe I can kind tie it in and at that point there is. You know the twenty four hour news cycle being what it is All of the press had left because of the Fort Hood shooting, and so you know they were few camera. Local camera people

but so I was just filming the house and all of these people started coming up to me, neighbors, who are still so upset by this, and they just wanted to talk. So I guess my first so ha ha moment was thinking. Wow people really want to talk about this. You know there is something here, there's something for me to do, though, again I didn't know what it was yet now part of the process to do the this is very similar to you are a writer so very similar to an author. In many ways, part of that is just basic you're, beginning process, probably a lot of research, and I saw Roberts Pernas name and he was on the program talking about his book house pores and raise involved in this film in some way tell us about Roberts, burners involvement, but also just the research that you did do before you under

point of this project. Actually, surprisingly, I did and didn't do that much research, because I guess at the beginning in two thousand and nine. You know not that much was known. I mean when I first started. We didn't even know who the women were. They still trying to identify the women. So it's not as if there was anything to research. I was just sort of following what was going on in the papers, So I guess, unlike a book where you can kind of cover a lot, you have to very quickly focus then on a theme, and so I knew sort of right off that I wasn't particularly interested in serial killers because

may I am you know they're, not it's not someone. I can identify with the person. You know I I I mean, I'm I'm curious as a as an individual about you know what makes them tick, but as far as making a film I want to make it about all that I might be able to identify and sympathize with, so I decided to for kiss it more on the victims. The problem with that again, aside from just getting access to families, especially during this time grief, is you know? How do you kind of recreate someone who is already passed and a lot of these women were poor they've been away from their families because of drugs, and so a lot of them didn't even have photos. It was you know, pre digital age, so now there might be just one or two photos so,

well, then I thought well: we've got to focus more on the women that escaped, but. So far there it only been a couple that it actually spoken to the media and again the media sort of all over them because they come forward, and so I really didn't get very far. You know I've just sort of filmed a lot of the things you know the action was going on outside the house sort of whoever whoever was acceptable at the time. But it really wasn't until twenty. Eleven when there was a trial that I was aware of more of the women that escaped and that's that's, how I met Robert actually was at the trial.

I mean it pretty much drew all the reporters and writers and people who are working on this, so so it was really at that point that, because there I should explain that the judge had put a gag order on the witnesses. So So even if they were willing to talk, they simply couldn't so around two thousand and eleven two thousand and twelve is when we're able to meet many of these, these people and building more of the women that escaped.

And again, Robert writing a book head and having he was really great. At tracking people down interviewed, you know far more people and also was able to get his book out sooner of film is a very long process, so he was very helpful in terms of of you know, setting me up with some of the subjects who particularly some of the women that has had a scaped. So that is how that worked. Now you talk you talk about before we talk about some of the victims and a spec.

As you do in the film you opened with the victim MEL that sock well and she leads to at any soul receiving a fifteen year sentence for a sentence where he was he's is in there for fifteen years right. The two reports to police now that cycle very powerful opening to on scene for all of the victims- and you say you met them after the trial. Obviously couldn't speak to me for that. What did you say to them to convince them? Because this is a film that goes beyond the typical, even with victim, centered, focused documentaries? To get that much more information? It's that much more intimate it's it's everything that possibly you would want to know about how they got to where they got

two, what did you say to them to convince them? How did you go about convincing them that you were going to do something different than some people are even leery of the media may have been as well. Tell us about that. Well, I can't say it was. You know the same for everybody. Uh, it's hard to say I mean Vanessa Gay, for example. I think she was more willing to tell her story was kind of a cathartic experience for her, but initially actually, as it happened. My previous Phil with screening and I invited her to a screening of that and she actually met subject at my last documentary and they had

the conversation, so that was really fortuitous and they kind of hit it off and that was kind of an amazing experience to have you know the subject of my past Phil talking to potentially the subject of my new film and I mean- and she is just a people person and- and you know I kind of hit it off with her just personally, I mean she has a great sense of humor, and so I think you know that that may have had something to do. Is it, and initially I did interview her first with an interview, I didn't use but I actually we talk all about her background and you know nothing think about actually what happened in the house and at the time to honest with you, I was kind of shy about asking about the house she had given. This

really powerful testimony in court, which you see in the film and I thought. Well, I don't want to drag her through that again I mean I have to say this is not something I enjoy doing, no dragging someone having the real. If you know what happened in there and to relive all the horrors so You know I spent a lot of time on you know. I wanted to know what she was like as a person growing up, and so we spent a lot of time on that initially, but the I realized wow. I I really do have to talk about what happened so then later we we can. If we did, though the whole thing, and so these interviews, they were long and again, I didn't just get right into the hey what you know what happened that was usually after a couple hours. So you know it wasn't, it wasn't easy and it wasn't something they just

Thirty two right away, usually wouldn't meet with first but yeah I mean I can't tell you it's not like. I have some some magic formula and he wouldn't give it anyway. So just you know, I really don't know I mean I didn't make any assumptions that they would want to do it. You know it just told them what the film was about. It was about humanizing the victims and telling their's not that 'cause you do see in in most films that deer will deal with a serial killer. Victims are just come, and if the tools I mean they're, just sort of thrown in there, like ok yeah, he was his first victim and you know that kind of thing yeah. Well, I wanted to say to is that you in you do have that

an interview with her another interview, another interview, then you show the powerful court testimony and then it's Juxtapoz or you cut to your interview, which deals with the same thing and then again her very, very powerful testimony and her powerful testimony in this film. I also want to just tell people that are trying to visualize this as well is that this is an s again other victims in this. Despite what you might think when you you know when you picture these people in your mind, I want you to tell us about Vanessa Gate as well in terms of what she looks like by what you might think. Despite all this background, and then this film is quite a bit about not to say that it's only about that, but it is quite a bit about drug addiction. Isn't it? Yes, it is I well to your for

first question: yeah Vanessa is a really effervescent kind of bubbly person like when you first meet her. In fact, I didn't. I specifically did not label the women, you know when you id them and lower. They just put her name, I didn't say, survivor or victim, because I don't even well kind of giving it away. But I don't want you to know immediately who they are. I just want you to see them on their own terms and so yeah she and Latondra, Billops or R2 with then there there really well spoken. You know: tundra comes off as kind of a business woman, maybe you know again someone you might want to chat with over with over a cup of coffee. Have a conversation. So- and you know you asked me about kind of what I learned from this, because I I had a picture

Turn my head of what a crack addict was, I mean most, these women were lowered in with the promise of crack to so how so. I kind of had this picture of you know, least women with their falling out there are falling out skinny, and so you know they were anything, but I mean, of course it does affect a lot of the women that way, but they had been kind of spared the physical ravages of this addiction or so so yeah. It's not It always what you think an again and that's how I want the audience to view them as well. You know these could

be my neighbors people. I know, and I think actually I mean it's interesting because back then the whole heroin addiction epidemic hadn't really hit, and so I think now you know middle upper class. Is people are kind of realizing yeah this this stuff? isn't just something that happens in urban neighborhoods are in poor neighborhoods. This could happen to me or to my friends, so I may be digressing so feel free to stop me. You talk about as well, and you show and then you have a very chicken very interesting subject here: Pastor Larry, Harrison very interesting character and he talks about Mount pleasant than in the

beginning or when he was young and now when you were making this film Mount Pleasant, is where all of this happened, as you show and as you tell through this film, tell us a little bit about Mount pleasant and Pastor Larry Harris, ok! Well, it's ironic that the place where this happened is called Mount pleasant. I mean it's a sad irony, but but in fact, it was a very pleasant place to live, and you know it's been kind of an immigrant neighborhood, but then for very long time of solid working class black. You know mostly black neighborhood up until maybe the early 80s and then again when the crack epidemic hit- and you know it just it just got destroyed. So it's in and even now it's it's pretty sad. When you

drive around- and you see these cute little houses of the little porch is and yeah people talked about how they leave their doors unlocked at night all the little stores breakfast places and this sense of community, so you know it just like it kind of kills me to see that and then it's you know it's right next door to Shaker heights, which again is one of the more affluent neighborhoods and it's kind of amazing how you can just kind of go around a corner and feel like you've dropped off the edge of the earth, so so pastor, Larry

Churches right in Mount Pleasant and again, you know I couldn't put a lot in the film, but he talked about how yeah the people that come to the church were mostly from the neighborhood. But now they you know they've moved out in a lot of them to drive in just from the suburbs and so uh, so yeah, even the church. It he admits this in the film there's kind of a schism or not a schism, but the church is maybe not as involved with the community rounded as much as it could and so I think he kind of admit some of his failures as as it has a church to really kind,

embrace these women are addicted to crack and and really kind of give them their full full love and support an and you'll see that and other parts of the film where this is really harrowing description. That Vanessa talks about after she escapes from the house. That was on a Sunday and then there there were these church people they just kind of looked away. So so yes, but let Pastor Larry, make some very powerful statements in the films. Absolutely you have a character that really stands out at first. You sympathize with them to a certain degree's. Obviously somebody immigrated to to America and he is in this new transformed neighborhood in

Mount pleasant across from Anthony souls home and raise sausages at the corner, and all of this mayhem goes on in that neighborhood and his names Assad KIA. The he's, a store owner and you show his background and he talks about these. Two young crack heads and his brother tell us about this character and there that first interview You, like you, do the interview and then continue later and later, it becomes more and more powerful. Tell us about this very, very interesting character that you dug up yeah. Well, he is, you know the arab store, our corner store owner And you know you see that and a lot of these poor black neighborhoods usually a corner store and and you know originally he talks about his brother

getting shot and killed these these two. I don't know if it was uh, for some drug dealer you know what exactly happened, but he was held up and then shot, and so yes, you do feel sympathy for him, and you know he talks again about it, just how he and his wife family to work in this really dangerous environment, and he even again it's not in the interview. But even you know kind of is nice to some of the kids that come in and go. Some candy, and so so yeah, you kind of feel for him. But then I don't know if I should be giving away the whole story, but

But but then later you learn some of his real views about how he feels about the women who were Sowells victim, and it is, it is kind of shocking, but you kind of have to put it in context as well, because he reflects, I think, what many people in society think of these women that were addicted to crack and it just would be afraid to say in front of the camera or would know better. So I guess that's what I have to say about him. It's amazing, though he has US companies interviews about his impressions of, and he said you know I had You know I hate to give this way, but it is a powerful. He says that I had a really good feeling about this Anthony soul. You see,

like a high class guy right right and also, and then yeah. We also get- and I know that you have a obviously a focus in this and sort of perspective, for this documentary. So you take information. You have short clips of the police and, very again, I think it's interesting, fascinating and disturbing. Actually police officers eating bags of potato chips. Talk Nancy saw tell us a little bit about your impression and what you were trying to convey or what you thought was conveyed with these short clips,

uh. I guess I wanted to. I wanted this on the surface, to feel like kind of a crime thriller or a I don't know. Just a reg other crime documentary we're kind of trying to figure out hey what what happened? What did so well, do you know? Is he going to tell us the identity of these women. So I read it. The I use the the interrogation footage the police had and kind of threat at that throughout the film. But but you know he can you kind of learn that he's just playing with them. He's almost pretending to be is if someone who's in

And so that's pretty much how I used it in your kind of asking me before the interview you know right, right interview so well, and in fact I didn't, and I knew a Robert it had interviewed him or and and written to him, but I think to do that would have just made him seem more like a a regular guy and again the the focus is really on the the win

and I just don't think it would have really added anything. So here he's kind of just this unpleasant cipher like individual, so yeah. I guess that was more sort of an intuitive decision to use use that material. The way I did you have, as I mentioned before, you open the film with velvet sock. Well, that's the first victim and that's where she escaped and and what happened is he got fifteen years and he was released and he came to. Imperial avenue. The infamous address you have access to and gained access. I should say not had you gain access to the tundra, Layla Billups long have access in the okay. Thank you and you had crystal does yours son

you decide, tie a likely. We mention the store owner. You had survivor again incredible Gladys Wade, you had Anthony soul, sister Tresa Garrison, and then you have lists and list And Sonya: okay, sorry one other you have and you have some given us a gate. As we mentioned, you have Pastor Larry Harris. You also have. This is incredible: who is this Lloyd, Roosevelt, former sex offender? Just tell us a little bit about this. This is not given too much away. This is interesting. Footage.

But which one voice yeah, actually that someone that Robert was really helpful in tracking down. In fact he had not registered. You know you're supposed to read Easter. If your sex offender anytime, you move and he hadn't, so we couldn't find him and it involved. Going around to all these, former residencies asking neighbors winding up at some you a little dive bar and slipping a note to the own, because he supposedly came in there. I mean how we actually got to him was kind of amazing but yeah. He tells a story of how you know he was so well cellmate

and you know they offer these programs for sexual offenders and so well would not admit to being a sexual offender. So we never got any of the. I guess went through Any of these programs supposed to help you cope and real life and admit you're, Prob, and so when so well got out, he was deemed you know, low risk, so so only because he wouldn't admit that he was sexual predator, which it sounds ridiculous, but that's sort of another way. He kind of uh, you know, fell through the cracks and maybe people weren't paying as much authorities weren't paying as much attention to him.

I don't know so so. Yeah uh Roosevelt talks about that can Roosevelt Lloyd with this was a sex offender himself, yeah, which I mentioned sure. Certainly everybody wanted to be wanted to cooperate on this incredible one of the most powerful things in this incredibly powerful film is Gladys way and the response from the police- and of course you mentioned how crucial this is because six more women are killed after this. So this premise that you're presenting is, is are reinforced by Cladist Wade. Tell us a little just a little bit about Gladys Wade, yeah now that is probably one of the most shocking stories just on the surface. So Gladys was attack.

By so well and she and she managed incredible. You know to escape and she gave down the Stairs here's cut her hand and glass and she got out- and this part is not even in the film but she she actually went to it. Wasn't the corner store, we were talking before, but another store she ran over there and ask them to call the police. I said: oh get out your your hand, you know you're bleeding on the floor if you can believe that and then so well was even standing right out there well, this is going on, and, and you know, people and then he he said she stole money from him, people believe him and but at any rate. Finally, I think she she ran from the scene and she flagged down some police and they actually did their job. They they came and they collected evidence.

Uh they found you know the blood you know. Obviously they must not have gone all the way into the house, but now they did that's right. They rested so well so they did everything they were supposed to do they treated her? Well, you know she she got treated. For her wounds and and then, ultimately, It went to. I guess this was an assistant prosecutor said, you know obvious. She had a background of course 'cause she been on drugs and there had been some violence in her background, and so they, the prosecutor, deemed Case they said she was not a credible witness and decided. There was not enough evidence to continue investigating the case, and so

She says they. They took his word over hers and drop the case and then, after that, six women were murdered. Well so I mean that's: that's the price of the most shocking part of this whole story and in fact recently, I think it went to this case- went to the the Supreme Court, but they've decided that the family to do in fact have a right to sue the city over this. Well yeah, you talk about the tundra bill. Up to you, you have an interview with what to order a few interviews with the tundra Phillips

a lot, and this is so. I can incredibly powerful too, because in the later interview she talks about her. I mean really we're talking. Not exaggerating brush with death and how exactly she did it. I read a lot of things. This is more than I've ever read exactly what she said to convince this guy so tell us and not to give away too much away, but just tell us a little bit about that interview with the two hundred build ups and her incredible. Brush with death yeah, you know again, I think some of the women that got away just had a talent for talking themselves out of it or sort of acting as if you know I mean what under Billops, I mean she blacked out. She was nearly choked to death and then

amazingly woke up. She describes her shock, it kind of looking at so well. He was shocked to see that she was still alive and and again I think she she acted like. Oh no, you know no big deals if she didn't remember and being a and it to be all upset over her shirt that was ripped and then went on about. You know that was my mother shirt and just kind of diverted the attention and managed to talk her way out of the house. You know just acting pissed off at him, and so that is just an amazing story, because we have kind of what he's saying on the outside and then what's going on, you know inside, and I think it's the same with the the now

it's a very similar kind of story. You know how they sort of kept their composure yeah. This this camel arity is. The similarity was that it looked like and you could not. I don't. I just don't want to underestimate or downplay say how crucial it was both of them, and you could see that that probably is part of their transformation from this tip is evil that we cover psychologically from. This is amazing. So it's way beyond survivor, but both of those people had to talk him into not killing them. They thought, because that's the kind of language when Letendre woke up and he was watching, he said all I got gotta

gonna kill you, I'm not going to kill myself. You could certainly going to go to the cops and she had to really do an acting performance of her life. Didn't she, oh yeah, yeah, it's amazing! Now you have these other interviews with Crystal dozy, another victim obvious. Crystal Dozier son and again a lot of these interviews really explain. The personal toll on the families Tell us a little bit about that interview with Crystal Dozier son crystal. Dozier was one of the victims, and so we're son, Anthony Dojer, describes. You know what it was like to grow up with his mom on crack and often how he and his younger sister, who was kind of protecting just didn't, have enough to eat

and you know so they would. They would sometimes live off of teaspoons of peanut butter and and then the horror of this was it when he was taken out of his mothers house that even his grandmother was a dick with the crack, and you know that's one thing I learned I originally thought well, you know I knew about the crack epidemic and but I did, and I thought that these women that had been the victims were maybe the one person in the family that had been Addicted to crack, but the more interviews I did. I realized you know their whole families addicted to this stuff. Just I mean it almost like a lost generation or two generations of people up and so Anthony Dozier yeah he so he talks about you know with grandmother, was on crack as well, and he has a lot of mixed feelings about his mother, which you can imagine you know, because he kinda

says. Well, she wasn't. He didn't call her on mother's day, because she wasn't really his mother. You know we hadn't acted like a mother, uh, and it it's not in the film, but he was very lucky in that. He was taken in by foster dad who I met. Who was just a real, really warm and caring person that didn't happen till he was at teenager, but I think that that really saved his life and it's also interesting because at one point he himself was thinking of becoming a police officer and was do some of the training. So we even had some sympathy for for some of, police officers, and you know why they couldn't find- he's missing women or why they didn't take some of the report seriously, though, ultimately he he was definitely really critical and that's that's another part of the film about how some of the family

he said, reported their loved ones missing, but the police didn't take it seriously or one even issue. A missing persons report said say: well the she's, an adult. You know she'll come back when she wants to so. His feelings about his mother are just very conflicted and it makes makes some really kind of interesting care in the film. He seemed to have a lot of sympathy for his mother that he really didn't ever get to know right all right, it was really sad to hear that he he seems have a comprehension of his mother's situation and their relationship. But after the fact much after the fact yeah I mean he did get to see her in her sober moments and could kind of see the person or the mother that she could have been.

Any any actually knew that that's. He was convinced from the information that he had heard that she wanted to be clean and it was evidenced by her being around. She wasn't like she wasn't around, and so when she did go missing it wasn't a matter of it. Took too long. Every other people in the family also reported her missing as you right right. Yeah I mean it's true. A lot of these women would go missing, but they would still call still come by after a while. So I think I think that's where you know a lot of the families had difficulty conveying this to the police that, yes, she is on crack, but she still calls she still comes by. You know she doesn't disappear for a year or half a year,

so, yes and and yeah. You know that it's, I think again, it's hard for people to comprehend, but when this drug addiction gets a hold of people, which is it just changes them. So, yes, they may be. You know in their heart of hearts their family person, but they still have to go out there and get that drug. So yeah, you have very powerful footage. Vanessa, gay and again, very similar in that it's crucial. You know this is addition to anybody. That's read anything. Is these peoples these victims brush, like I say, near brush with death and again we won't give it away, but her, it's amazing

We have her looking and sounding that, together, after what the experience, because, even though these other people had this brush with death, this woman had even more in terms of things, to wipe out of her mind that she saw just tell us a little bit about how she escaped from this and again, you provide this footage for the trial and the interview tell us a little bit about Vanessa Gay in this very powerful part of the film uh. Well, I don't know if you want me to give that part away. Do you bye she saw when she left the house, but but yeah, I would say she saw what you could only be described as something you'd see in a horror film I mean really just so you know, I can't tell you. I just think

these are really resilient person. You know she is another interests beyond the horrors of what happened to her and she's again, really a people person, I think, you know she is strong relationships with their friends and family and I think that that's helped her to a large extent to to try to get passes. Though she's admits you know, you can never get past something like this but I mean I think she just has a real love of life, an that's how she's been able to cope this so and you know I can't say- oh well, she's just sure she would never admit that she's perfectly ok, but you know she moves on and and in fact right now I know she's she's actually working for a victims advocacy. Group- and so she really finds that work fulfilling and so

So you know she she's just like anyone else. She she sees, you know which is living her life. So you have a very amazing interview and especially that she agreed to do an interview with this is Tresa Garrison, Anthony Soul sister? What do you? What did she speak to in the interviews that you have with her uh? Well, I did feel they said. I wasn't focusing on so well, but I fell, I kind of needed to give a little background to kind of lead you up to this. So you know that there's you know you know so something about him. So she was his sister and uh yeah. She paints pretty scary picture of 'em. You know, even when he's a child, and she describes him as a

mean child, a man. So. And then she also describes- and I think what's what's interesting about this- is that she is is just as shocked. I mean she knew he had problems and but that she's really just as shocked by what happened, is as we are. You know, being his sister. But you include you conclude the footage where he calls her on the run and he's he's on the run and yeah. Yeah, so it's amazing what he says to her and again we won't give that way. We give those for people that would like I want to put away 'cause. I was actually just a shocked when I was interviewing her that she revealed this, but I get I don't want to give away the whole.

Whole film, but I I was kinda. Actually you can kind of see that the person buying the camera looks a lot. And prepare to face to face if we are just the camera suddenly, when she makes the statement so, but yeah you'll have to just watch the film yeah. This is it's it's. It's amazing at All I can say is that, just as the film slowly develops and moves forward, just more and more too pawn, and and is more and more revealed what we didn't mention too, is it again? Everyone knows the story that there was this incredible smell in the neighborhood. So much that trays sausage was at the corner. I was forced to put expensive

modification MAR Mental controls to be able to deal with that smell and yet the smell persisted and do you have footage with very powerful footage of a sod, the store owner talking about smell and garbage bags, and so incredible that this could go on, like you say, in the womb, do it in the beginning of this that this could go on for so long yeah I mean again, it is a bit of irony, that you would have. I mean people make a joke of it, but yeah yeah. You would have a sausage and factory right next, four two sold house, but you know just to people know this was a family owned business, so the owner ray sausage. You know they were like the first owner

years of or african american owners of a sausage business, and they actually employed ex offenders, and so they were probably one of the strengths of the community, again there. I did do some interviews which were not included in the film, but you know got to know them and so when the smell of the dead bodies first became noticeable. Neighbors complained in the health department was sent out, and the first thing they looked at of course Was- was sausage company and then you know they made them go through all these costly modifications. I mean totaling, like thirty thousand dollars, redoing their sewage system and no installing all kinds of things- and I mean again, it just sounds like a nightmare from their perspective because they could barely afford to do this and then- After all, was said and done, you know the places

spotless and they smelling MEL and yeah, and then even they again is not in the film, but they described so well, it's kind of like he was they thought of him as the stable and reliable neighbor, because they had some some pipes or copper. Pipe types are siding on their house or on their factory. That was stolen. He said, oh well, I'll I'll keep an eye out. You know so, and I believe actually he he had stolen some of this, so so yeah it just damaged them and and then obvious, please, but you know, prevented them from investigating what was really going long and then you know some of the people thought it was coming from. Assad tires store because it smells

what they were. You know it depends on what direction error I mean the wind was blowing, so you couldn't really tell so they you know people would accused him. Oh you dirty arribe, and so he would get comments like that, and you know his wife got too sick from the smell that work there, but yeah even he thought. Well, it can't be the sausage, that's just so clean. So just nobody know I knew where it was coming from. So I mean yes in retrospect, you could blame the health department, I don't know you know, should they know what a dead body smells like it's but they're, just such an odd circumstances. In this case. You do talk about this, though that.

That this? When these bodies were discovered in two thousand and nine up to that point, those eleven women? There was no investigation by police of those level. Women till that two thousand nine and then Anthony Soul, promise to help authorities identified those victims. And yet, as you put in this, that didn't happen, did it right uh. So so what is the engine, I'm just saying I just make a statement, but you also have that the result of all of this. This was a definite. The case. You show the very powerful reaction in court. You have that footage included. You have we mentioned Vanessa Gay at trial, talking about this incredible horror story that she witnessed,

but you show the reaction of Anthony soul. And it seems to be no reaction when she's making these claims and her testimony and she's hysterical. But the death penalty gets his reaction. Doesn't it. Oh yeah, I mean he no he's just stony faced and- Uh, I am actually that he acted rather peculiarly sure during the death penalty mean he kind of bows to the audience and there's this one place and it's again not in the film. For his one of his sisters is talking or one of his family members about how they love him or something, and he cries a bit, but

yeah. Any any kind of emotion is for himself and nobody else so yeah and I don't know if you know lawyers told him not to react, that's very possible, but but yeah I mean you can't expect him to react as if he he did something, because that would be admitting it an yeah as we discussed earlier. He he never helps the police with anything. And to this day is never admitted that he killed any of the women. Then you have that in on tape as well. It's interesting with the police, where he just he pretends. He can't remember it's a cloud. He ran a lock. What of it all. I think we need to say that mentioned as you do, the all the victims, Imelda Hunter

Turner, Crystal Dozier, all the Sciandra Long Michelle Jason Nancy Cobbs Janice web to Culver to Felicia Fortson, Tonya, Carmichael Kim Smith. This film was you, wrote this with someone also as well. Could you tell us on nails Bangerter? Could you tell us a little bit about the his contribution to this site and and that little bit of that writing process? Yeah I mean, I guess it It's not really. Writing I mean it's now something that documentary filmmakers will put in when they now the director and the editor you in a sense you're, writing it, but you're really editing it and making decisions about what

to put in and where so so. Actually, we both agreed nails in the did not use that credit, but once we and I ended- and I am D b there was but but still I mean they, there is a storytelling process going on in nails is just a brilliant. Editor is one of the last documentary see edited called camera person was nominated for an academy. Any award, and I have to say you know I I made a rough cut myself, which was kind of pedestrian. I mean it kind of preceded chronologically, told the story, but it wasn't really work the way it should, and he just he grabbed them material and in two weeks had just like it really powerful opening

so- and I think it's also a matter of you know- just using there's so much material. But it's just a matter of using just enough to tell the story and for us to feel the emotion of the scene and yeah. He just has kind of the magic touch. So I would, I would in fact watch any film that Knells Bangor Door has put his editing hands on it's just. It was just a real joyed to work with him. Yes, is it seventy five minute film and it really does move despite people sit in being interviewed, but just incredible way, put this together and also very, very affective, music, very effective yeah, actually, my composer to is FAT

Simoni Giuliani, who, who I use for my previous film facing forward again. It you know just getting getting the editing the music to me is is really not just something you just do at the end. It's it's everything so. Yes, I want to applaud you for this. It's incredible since it's been very careful, very powerful, very dramatic, very explored of I don't anymore so superlatives I can give you accept. This is a must see. This is unseen. True crime, documentary about a Cleveland, serial killer and the women he prayed on fantastic job. Thank you very much, Laura Paglin for those that might want to see this to give us information, maybe a facebook, page or website, or how they could get to see unseen. Ok, hopefully you can,

the sign your your website, but the the website is Ww W. Wunseendocumentary, dot com, and there you'll find all the links to Itunes and Amazon and the other platforms. At one point it got to number two on Itunes, so people could watch it on that. That would be marvelous 'cause. We want to keep it up there and have people recognize the films absolutely well. Thank you very much. Laura pregnant, it has been a pleasure. Thank you very much for coming. I'm talking about unseen. Thank you very much for having me. You have a great evening. You too connect

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If you don't dispose of the unused or expired prescription drugs in your home, they might find a new one. They could end up, lost, stolen or simply misused. Keep them safe, clean them out, take them back at the US. Drug enforcement administration's national prescription drug take back day Saturday October. Twenty sixth from ten am to two pm to find a collection site. Please visit the d e, a take back dot com, that's d, e, a take back, dot com,