Hi, it's Jamie progresses, employee of the month two months in a row leave a message at the high Jaimie hit me Jamie. I just had a new idea for our song with the name, your price tool. So when it's like tell us what you want to pair her in the trombone goes blah blah blah and you say, will help you find carbage options to fit your budget. Then we just all do finger. Snaps will acquire goes statements coming actually saved is coming out. Yet. Yes, no, maybe anyway see your practice. Tonight I got new lyrics for the rap break, progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates pricing coverage limited by state law. Is your cell phone bill out of control? Then this is your wake up call the new Tracfone wireless gives you unlimited talk and text, starting at twenty dollars a month, no contract plus unlimited carryover data with active service yep, the new Tracfone wireless now you're in Control C terms and conditions at tracfone, dot, com.

Hi, I'm Jay, Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine, nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and with over thirty thirty hi, I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two: five percent: the receive a discount rate cut across information intelligence because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty

talk, radio, You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky on May Fifth,.

On May fifth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three second graders, Christopher Byers, Stevie Branch and Michael Moore, disappeared from there West, Memphis, Arkansas homes. The follow afternoon there, nude, beaten, inbound body, were discovered in a drainage, ditch just in a mile away after a troubled confession: three local teenagers later dubbed the West Memphis three were arrested, tried and convicted in early one thousand, nine hundred and ninety four Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley received life sentence, is well ringleader. Damien Echols went to death row Years later, the documentary film Paradise lossed premiered on HBO and the effect on the viewers was dramatic. Many became skip people of the verdicts and also felt one of the father's of the victims was a better suspect. John Mark Byers,.

In untying the knot. Author great day tells the true story of John Mark Byers and the about face. He made to free the men convicted of the crime they exposes. The propaganda campaign used to convince a gullible public debt buyers was complicit in the deaths of his wife and son. Based on court transcripts and hours of personal interviews, and tying the knot explores all the case. Evidence while intervene leaving dialogues and statements, eight races, the I have buyers from his roots in rural Arkansa to his son's murder and the death of his wife ultimate. Prison in nineteen. Ninety nine, reveals a man redeemed by prison and who's change of heart chain His life, the book that we're featuring evening, is untying the knot, John Mark Byers, and the West Memphis three with my special guest, journalist and author Greg Day welcome to. Program and thank you for agreeing this interview great day

thanks for having me, then thank you very much for joining us here. As I mentioned we discussed this is a follow up from last week, show sort of in response to that program for the incredible interest that this case had at the time still in over this period of time, sustained by five movies or and or documentary films, all the books, all the discussions and all the still continued in Preston, Damien Echols, the West Memphis, three, an all information surrounding it and still very, very controversial and very, very captivating for the audience worldwide. So let's get to this right away. Let's tell us what are the circumstances that you came to be involved in this case and especially involved with Mark Byers, John Mark Byers and

Facebook tell us those circumstances yeah, unlike a lot of other people who most came through to the case through the documentary almost Paradise LAS. I had never heard of the films an I actually had never heard of the crime just doing a basic intersite internet walk around trying to find interested in we're capital cases. I came across this case and found it a huge repository of evidence that was growing all the time that was being put online for. For people's review And, of course, they're feeling was at the West, Memphis three had been wrongly convicted and I was we just didn't add as well, so I saw looking through the documentation. So I've actually saw the two, the two films, an I saw the second paradise logs film first and That was my first.

Introduction to John Mark Byers and anybody who's. Seen that as their first introduction to John Mark Byers, and then he was terrified. It was to me anyway, I joined the message board and started working with the people who are running it or three of the people who are featured in the second sound they between show me the second film and these three people, if they don't happen, Damien apples when his friends are, will rot in jail, today. But they were very uh. They would never activists from Southern California and that, but in any event, I had a friend on that message for Newmar fires and thought that he needed somebody to talk too so

in a few emails and he were a feedback, and then I called him and I had written a lot in different posts on the message boards, and I guess he thought that. But I I understood it Story- and he wanted me to tell it so that's really- and that was in two thousand and five. Now you mentioned those three activists will mention their names because they're very pivotal. An reoccuring characters in this story yeah, to say the least. We used to refer to them as the KGB Kathy Bakken passionately and Bourke solve. Back in and solves were in that film business out in California and Paso's a photographer out there, and they were all plans and Kathy Bakken was doing the artwork for the first Lost gum

he's got the preview, the films she sent along to Berks Allson, knowing that he'd be interested in something and the three of them, decided at that point that at the last three Innocent and they started a website and started putting all sorts of the original source nation they were getting. People were going to the West Memphis Police Department and actually photo copying things and copy. Transcribing according to put in them up on the internet, so. Yeah those those people they didn't start the filming process. There was already one film out when they came together, but They gave it wings and between Paradise lost two in the KGB, That's an attractive, they all have contacts. You know: Hollywood type, complex media people and whatnot. So. And that second film, just it also. I got like a bomb. Mainly

My opinion, because of John Mark Byers, He gave them what they didn't have prior to that, and that was an alternate suspect. You- and I both know that when when someone is on trial, especially for murder They don't really have alibi and there's some evidence against them. Their best hope for being exonerated this finding an alternate set but then John Mark Byers, foot. The bill is perfect. He's believable he's a crazy and he form for the cameras better than they could have expected and Leanne S Mirror eleven, also latched on swim. At that time he became the fact, though, alternate suspect, of choice. Well to be fair, though I mean, of course, they need somebody ultimately to be a suspect if you're going to say that these three are innocent and

certainly John, my John Mark Byers, cooperated. So please elaborate for our audience. What you mean by that because you explain above even the cash incentive, and why would somebody do something like that? Well and the for a money is not exhort. And so tell us a certain answers that they were in and then tell us how and what. Why was he performing like that? what were some other factors in that performance besides being a grieving father, if we were to look at it, Now start the beginning: in the end they want sum of cash. Not being absorbed is a relative thing. Do you and I it's probably not exorbitant- But the way a lot of these people were living out there. If you had ever driven through the trailer parks where Miss Kelly, Baldwin and Echols came from And by the way, the trailer park was a step up for Echols

it started resonate with people who are on disability or unemployment are working, they mark puzzled, drugs and a relatively small, not money, was a jeweler by trade and he had to have a short period of time where he was profitable at that. But it didn't last so but you're right in saying that the money was not the big push. Far cry my tires is attention junkie? when he to give you an example of this is one of the hearings out there when the Berlin in the summer. So following him around, he was going to person to person just trying to find the last journal just had a microphone or a camera on He wouldn't go home until the last. You know and was, you know very shortly after his sons murdered. I

but at the time it was cathartic, I don't know, but Is it very much and if you've seen the movies particularly, one the scene at the graveyard. The burning of the mock raise their just. He seems that. You can imagine somebody sitting here like if it was you, and so I was holding a camera in front of you. You know that you would that you would be able to perform like that, but but but Mark put an yeah. I I know that seems to look a little bit. Try but hi. It had it had a lot to do with, and then he got angry because once people started using a based on his his appearances. He started getting angry because he was drunk hang in the drugs and he was by his own admission word

Heavily under the influence, particularly during the second, the second term, and that that that changes- somebody, but I mean I can't imagine anything but at least at that later on, when he he want to join the bandwagon or start the bandwagon. I can see but at that point I all I see, is that it was for whatever reason wanted the attention right. What was it in the film? Because I mean millions millions of people far more people that they're going to read all the books written about this case. Far more people will get the impressions of the cases from the films and the documentaries. And so what documentary in the second one other than Mark Byers, acting crazy because of supposedly

presenting factual information and interesting you put in the book is that your book is an examination of facts versus opinion. And when there is going to be an opinion rather than a fact, you're going to speculate that so we're going go through that for the people that That's what they're really really looking for and that's what you really provide in this book as well. So, let's talk about what the film, if anything, they did in that second film to save, supported. Their claim in this very big claim that not only was the West Memphis three innocent but in fact John Mark Byers, What was the evidence that they presented in that film. Well, I didn't really think they presented very much evidence at all and so much of it circle back to Mark Byers, personality there's a Baldwin's defense team is to get in one scene and guy named James or as a card, is talking about how

the kind of guy who he was big enough to have carried the three bodies he had the motive. He was a jewelry at the skill to do the hi Inhabitation yeah right which. It was never really proven, but in any event there were circumstantial things like that: That they were already pointing towards him. I didn't see any real evidence. And either one of those films, the first real evidence I saw Kaneland Damien Echols have enough money to hire. A very high powered offense team, forensic experts, FBI, profilers and start finding, and even then the evidence will spend that they found something in the movie. I don't think they presented anything more than now circumstantial. They, of course, went to the things that everybody goes to. The Miss Cali confession.

Joe and Bruce, managed to the same way the scenes. With these little texts green zone, help viewer hear what he was about to see and they would say things like yeah Jessie Misskelley, woods interrogated for twelve hours before confession. Now. I went through that again before I got on the air to find out the exact timeline. This Miss Kelly actually gave four different confessions, one pre matriculation post conviction and he had only been at the police station by three one slash two hours before he first spilled the beans. Now they cut them there for twelve hours, but he went in around one thousand one hundred o'clock in the morning and by one thousand two hundred and thirty or two hundred and thirty, I mean, after failing a polygraph, detract And they said well, he only had an iq of seventy. So that's why practical, yeah, ok, but any

I miss Kelly, tried to remove himself in the Situa to me it made him positive situation like by saying that he after Michael Moore, during the murders and brought him back, and then he left. So what are you saying in this all I did was bring him back and then I left- and he said several times during the depression? And then I love, ok and then it was then. I left. His confession was, was: am I a strong piece of evidence against him and they try to prevent it as exculpatory evidence. So I I honestly can't think of things they came, they came out. Well, let me grab that they all both found blood in what became known as the John Mark, Byers Knife and it the knife that Mark had given to a crew member right

my team and they had notice. There was some material on it, look like blood and they had tested and found out that it was consistent with marks blood and Christopher's blood, which is kind of curious because from the doctors, your biological, but they tried to question him on the stand. To get him his defense to get him to somehow trip Papa and he was very confused and you could tell that it was Drug everybody at that trial was dropped. All the at least on the victims. Parents they they. They ran volume, and this is how I'm getting this from them, not from anyone else. The market is Mark, appeared confused on his mandy. He probably was, but they couldn't get a straight answer out of him About where that came from- and that was probably the strongest piece of evidence that they had,

because, when he got off the stand, I think a lot of people in the jury weren't quite shareable- to make him he didn't he didn't he didn't clear himself, but in the end it just and they couldn't match that any other noise. They had their two guys and they put imagine with wounds so and in fact those my phones will be subject- questions for another fifteen years to this day that defense team there turtle bites well, let's get to that and you do talk about this just last week's guests and William Ramsay, really I pose the question to him, and I really asked it like Duri really believe that a guy like Johnny Depp really believes in every time minutes of Alister Crawley in that

he believes in human sacrifices. I said I can't believe: do you really believe he could believe in human sacrifice, let alone animal animal sacrificed he's, probably a vegan. I says, for God, sakes still said. No, I think he's a fellow traveler of Alister Crawley, and so that's where he is. You know and that's what he firmly firmly believes. But in your book you well, you have a more objective tone will say the least talk about who was really the instrumental people and the admirable job that they did do in once. They believed in the cause. Tell us about that because it fascinating, true story of Hollywood, not just in some noise or some rock stars behind the car I mean they've been again add normal other causes like live aid and farm aid, some abnormal things, but again this is something very, very, very big. If their convictions on these. People's innocence is true,

They did a very, very impressive and, profound thing really here so tell us about the effort by and who the people were to get these people. This new evidence yeah you're right. This was unprecedented. I think the only thing that ever surprise me more was either Oj being a queer or Casey, Anthony but but the way they did. It was nothing compared to the West Memphis three, this case loads, senior day. The first thing that came out with a book by Arkansas journalist, but the blood of management, so its name in the book, and it was just a pretty straightforward count of cakes, if you get a whole lot of attention there

wasn't tell Paradise LAS came along and with the first they were getting some lower level. People like Michael grades from the misfits Margaret Cho, I think even back, then it might have done any better involved and, as that goes life points out, they're, not be where they are. If it was Eddie, Vedder more than anybody, except to say that Johnny Depp, who supposedly according to jail, I spoke with Joey, said Lion's hasn't cost for years, every year. He calls me and asked me to stay in the case and all those bad still in prison so so low allegedly Depp was very, was very disturbed by it and when it got to the point where they a certain amount of money and I'll say that at that point, the most

important persons, the key person with Lori Davis 'cause. They have money coming in before that, but they didn't have anybody directing the effort and Lori Davis without a whole lot of connections started contacting these people, She know, but at least so she got all that personally, but she had, practically ran a publicity office for people to call in an So she hooked up all these people. She started taking the money that they were giving her and doing what nobody else has done, and friends as experts and and legal that was US magistrate, many browsers they had public debt under gray, lawyers. And no money for, their their case. Usually, if you're an indigent you get, the court will give you some money too. But they didn't do that, and so she started spreading that money around she high

word Dennis Riordan who's. He work on the night stalker case and I think the appeals, his heart appeals, and that was his fingers- that he was a federal appellate lawyer and He started assembling illegal legal team. She got John Douglas to go out. And start talking to people. She got the evidence reexamine. There's been dm dna evidence that they had collected. From the beginning I was just sitting in an evidence room because judge, wouldn't give him any money to have it tested. So she got the money to have it tested and out of all that came the most fame Air in history, and that would be the hair, Terry Hobbs. In the binding of Michael Moore and when They- and that was the first piece of physical elements they had if somebody else to the case John Mark Byers, looks they're, not camera, but there was no physical evidence. Terry

and of course, if you wanted to find somebody who was a character who It was capable of violence. Well, so they had a Bondi. They had a hair and And away they go and then they started doing the benefits to keep them uh I'm cranking in the last Jedi they did was on the evening of the Supreme Court hearing, which resulted in their ultimate release Dhani Harrison, was there and depth? Was there Patti Smith, so and Peter Jackson got involved, and and had been involved for some time, but really behind the scenes. He hasn't funding a woman named Amy Berg who produced the documentary called. Deliver us from evil about a catholic priest to this pedophile She had gone like undercover, with PAM Hobbs,

For several years trying to get evidence, okay, Hobbs, you put out her own documentary at that time. Called west of Memphis So they had at the same time, Bruce and Joe were put in one slash. Three Paradise LAS together. So there were three paradise lost films. There was the west. This documentary there is Devils, not theatrical release by that Adam never and the canadian guy would that with the Now it wasn't an Adam alloy and yeah Colin Firth and Reese Witherspoon and all that, so that's an overwhelming amount of media and it's it's ' forget about the boxes. As you pointed out, people are reading those, the beginning to be read. Mera Lyrics book and

They use it as their Bible, but that book was three orders. I invite anybody to go through and tell me otherwise. That was three slash four of a good job. On John Mark Byers, it's all that book was yeah. And then their bodies, these days so thing is how on earth does the number one, the movement uh, How does because Marilyn leverage there at the end? You know when the the dna, at least in their minds, completely exonerates the West Memphis three, an impo kates in their minds completely. That Hobbs is the guy in Mark Byers, isn't is Hollywood and documentarians, because they're they're not you know the film makers aren't supposed to be as responsible as documentary film makers? How do they go from blaming in two movies? Basically, like you, say three slash four of Meryl Everetts Book Devil's knot.

Using mark buyers in this, almost same kind of way that, ironically, that the West Memphis three were accused through not complete police work. Play. How do they do that? How do they justify that? Do they say anything to the address that and how does that work? Well, the one thing you said that that's true is that their health of a higher standard than regular filmmaker- they refer Jo Numbers, refer to themselves. When I talk about through Sonoski, I should mention he passed away. Your back still show now, but they. They refer to themselves as journalists and, in my mind, that kicks it up another notch. As far as. Pain pain line to the integrity of the film, and I just couldn't see it being there? If there was enough, if you didn't

If you didn't do anything else, but watch new movies, I suppose you could believe what you saw, but there is a website out there that I leaned on heavily. I could, thirty, two pretty heavily as well, where since the beginning of the case that in piling evidence we were talking about this in the pre show they had things, transcribed recordings transcribed they had. People describing court records and things like that and evidence reports and photo copies of police reports, I mean they had to set so much stuff up there. It was very, I wouldn't say it was easy. Movie, tedious to walk yourself through what was up there but it would also tell you the facts and a lot of the people who not with different facts. Now include something like John doubles again over completely different scenario. The amount of possibly going through the records and looked at the facts,

the documentarians. You can have one of First things Joe said after after Seeing Damien Echols Import was, but after talking to him for five minutes, you realized that he was totally innocent and. If somebody, if somebody can tell you that they can tell anybody, is innocent. After talk Sing to them for five minutes, obviously didn't read all the psychiatric reports. He didn't Michaels, history: this is a violent disturbed. You know an emotionally disturbed, I even if you don't buy But that's not for the motives for murder It's still something that, but that that the film makers were unaware of when they, when they, when they interviewed echoes when they made that movie again the first movie was better factually in that it was less magical in nature in the second movie

they got Kathy in Grove in Burke. And Meryl Everett. It was the whole it by Joes one hundred mission, the movie was them watching the free, the West Memphis three supply that's what the whole second movies about. So it tells you right in the beginning what you got I see you, I say filmmakers. It's really easy to do in our films are just what you need bedroom floor. You can make your case and still Now let me say that I think that I, yeah. I believe that that Joe believes and what he was doing I don't know if he would say that he was close to the highest standards of journalism, but he season ends justify the seems, kinda guy, and he said that the problem with Joes he likes to talk, and if you look to the commentary, the film, which I did internet for all the hundreds of interviews with these, given

he just loves the blast, because nobody disagrees alone. You mean I have to get that against any screwed you'll find in this. In this case most people believe that Bless Memphis. Three are: are innocent. I find that my blog, but it's a lot a lot of people well before we get too again. That will be, of course, an opinion. Let I want to go through some things that again they're just highly contestable and some things don't come up. That boggle my mind, that they don't come up and one of the most important things. I mean your books called on time tonight. There's devils knot, William Ramsay, talked about in his. He claimed that there was proof the way is the shoelaces were tide of the say, tannic ritual and

And yet I read in your book about for the first time that there are three distinct. Styles of knots, which indicates three different killers. Can you talk about, yeah, that's that was one that didn't get noticed. I don't think very early in the case either, but it did Shirley during the appeals. Even John Douglas and admits that one thing. One possibility for different knots. Is that not it's not unheard of for a better to have his victims tie each other up, and you had three boys that never comes out and they, theoretically, you had had that. I'm not that's impossible. Terry Hobbs found one of his his. His hairs in the Not binding Michael Moore.

And there's a lot of disagreement about that because they don't. I don't, have access to the actual piece of evidence and they seem to be kind of fake. As far as was it hang on the shoe they flows it in the not but it was associated with that? Not the bound more. The question arises why we already tight three different Knox, not. All right one moment all sense, Sometime over for Miss that too, I rebuild is different then, and he postulates that maybe one of the kids tide up the other that's possible, although if it was Jessie Misskelley didn't say that, and he never said that, anymore of his four confessions. He never said anything about anybody, but Damian and Jason fine which means that he probably tagline himself too John. This also says that it was impossible,

so for Jessie Misskelley to have run away and grab Michael Moore, bring him back, because he was already he's already back. You couldn't have run away I don't know where it gets, that bit of information is it's not in the fax. So that's just something he made up. But it yeah. I don't really. In fact, I sound here with the pilot leather, trying to find out As I was not a boy scout, I don't even buy nights and get a very good description of you know how these knots are are tired and They sound and seemed a little more complicated than an eight year olds can type but Jesse made an interesting point when he was ask during one of the professions. Well, how come that the kids? How do you get the kids to stay still why you tie them up Jesse said well he's a piece of kids are just like puppies. He say you can welcome and no stay put.

I thought that was fascinating thing to say, because I also believe that that's true, it is easier to control children. I don't think you needed any kind of Jaya Intellect or a huge body size or, but it is only. If you had help that would do it so I'm that's the obvious explanation for different knots and said: there's fifty three different kids involved could be for one of the victims was tying the knot. No every think about whether they had a fair trial. I mean we won't dwell on this too much about the fair trial, but at least that has to be said that that's part of the These people's argument is that did the West Memphis three you receive a fair trial, especially given the say, tannic ritual theory that was put earth's motive. Let's just get that off the did they receive a fair trial that they

especially in light of the dna evidence that they that they did and cover did. They deserve another trial, so two questions yeah they totally deserved another trial. Their first travel was completely unfair and the fact that they, deserved another trial? Not only did they deserve it, but they were going to get it and that's what force. They offered deal to begin with right because they had they had the state had the a choice of be there letting the killers belfry and admitting there wrong opening themselves. That's all the civil suits, and you know whatever all that or getting to just take the for play, and they said they still would wind up this context. But there will be- released after seventeen or eighteen years behind bars, but the thing that made. The trial. And it goes right back to beginning even forgetting the

colts Yeah, I know with Vicki I just another point and I still never found out why it's a mystery, how much Jesse Misskelley was into the policy, and- and I don't know I mean they had a little little. Groups going on around town, but I I don't think anybody ever really proved vehicle, but they use a question. I think you're asking is, did the jury by it and It's a two pronged answer in any case is Jessie Kelly trial. This huge tried separately because he wouldn't Sophia against the others in his case uh The jury believed her to take the passion confession played in open court. That's all. They need to hear. What they did, though, was That information. Found its way into the trial of Damien Echols,

Jason Baldwin, who were tried together. It was later uncovered that you know the jury had included the mask great confession in their deliberations right The construct- in their deliberations an also they had a juror. Who are who talked his way on to the jury?. He lied about. You know some some questions. You know they ask you: don't have idea all the different questions that might preclude you from providing a bias services, He lied to that and he also disgusted with his attorney, and why No occasion was dropping the ball.

And there were there were connectivity- says he wanted to make sure he decided they were guilty. He wanted him convicted and so You actually bought the Discover convention confession into jury deliberations. That's enough! That's your misconduct! He take the jury. An it Judge Burnett given them a new trial right away. They may have come up with the same jury. Payment, because those people were there local people in the news sort of is still big. He didn't didn't. Do that stonewall them for fifteen years and. By that time,. They were guaranteed new trial and they were going to be acquitted and everybody knows. So I thought I think that would be absolutely so. That's the deal. Yes, the short answer is they deserved a new trials and they should have had him right away.

For that reason, ok we're going to ok What we're going to do is great we're going to take this opportunity to just for two minutes to talk about. The sponsor of this program, which is Luke Rate, who create, is a mystery crate, filled with Exc use of items from the biggest and Bob best pop culture, franchises, delivered right to your door. Every month,. An exclusive items, including apparel collectables, license gear and unique. One of a kind must haves, loot, crate partners with dot Top brands, including Marvel then tendo, call of duty in star wars to get you every month, use of products. Thirteen ninety five per month, plus six dollars shipping and handling total price. Nineteen Ninety five, that's a recurring monthly rate, but there are no commitments, and so you're in control, cool, limited edition stuff, like shirts, vinyl figures, other collectables for six items over

forty five dollars of retail value in every crate for one hundred and twenty dollars, and this month pop culture is full of brave new world societies, influx that don't always turn out for the best June game will be Expo some of the ways things go wrong with dystopia featuring classics, Robocop Terminator two judgment day and the matrix new Faves, Bio shock, infinite and fallout. Four and they've got the loot to lift your spirits and subscribe for this June's loot, crate mystery crate by the 19th of June. At nine hundred Pm Pacific standard time and that's the deadline. So every month a loot, crate number wins a mega crate value. Today for two thousand dollars loaded with exclusive collectible gear tech, gadgets, game systems, apparel and accessories, and other items so big and epic, they can't fit in their monthly crates and if you use

to use the Truman code Codethatsthatlootcrate, dot, com, slash, true murder. You can get an additional three dollars off your monthly subscription, so that's go to lootcrate dot com, l, o t c r, eighty e loot, crate dot com, slash true murder and get your three dollars off that monthly subscription get yourself. Dystopia June's loot, crate, mystery box. So we last left off. We were talking about. The effect of this Alford plea will not be effective. The alpha plea, but effect of all of the the five movies, the films and the movement to get these people release from prison. What is the state of the case legally?

as a result of all those five movies and all this activism and the Alford plea in reality, what is the legal evidence against Gary Hobbs in reality and what is, if anything, any kind of movement by the police or any progress by police in that area. Yeah, the police- aren't really involved now. But there are there a group of some of the victims: families Mark ain't, one of 'em, PAM, Hobbs and uh. Some other people because they they're looking to exonerate the less my three rather than just have them released from prison and the only way that they can do. They're all focused on Terry Hobbs, the evidence, but they have there's the hair the hair is go details in the book I got. I do go into detail about my one hundred dna and what the story is.

With that hair and how It actually is. Yeah, there's no hair follicle is just a hair shaft, so you can't get anything but mitochondrial dna which can trace things through the mothers line, and they could say things like No Terry Hobbs is one of our group of in West Memphis, three thousand five hundred people who could have done this? You know that kind of thing and some butt, but it's you know it. It only give her good evidence, but it's evidence. They also have some state. Events by hards, then neighbors and I'm going to Giza Little bit her today. He was Jennifer Baird. They were sisters and they lived three doors down from from Terry. Less methods and they They claim to have seen him with. All three boys at his house on a date where

He said he had never had not seen the boys yeah. He had you seen his own step, son seating because Terry, then come home from work at once. Tv went out riding bikes, so they where they're showing that he. Not only saw that was with band and talked to these three kids. The very shortly before the American within an hour or so So that's another pieces and they they. Those are just sworn at the Davidson they are they've got Terry's. She wasn't a wife she's, a fiance, I think She said that he used to talk about the murders in his sleep. Mind you, this stuff is coming out Like within the last five years, She will tell you about it, then she said she didn't cheat like she didn't hear about the case

so she didn't know to come forward with this information. The same way with the girls and see that your boys they didn't know that it was an issue or else I would've brought it up years ago. The loss of a woman named Mildred. I can't remember her name she's out in hot springs. Arkansa Anne Terry knew her when he was young before he married PAM. And he claimed that he, like. Broke into her apartment while she was in the shower and sexually assaulted her and that the Let landlord, as there is all kicked him out of the apartment So this is another sworn affidavit We said this. Woman very old, will not very old now but she's. There she's, probably my age she's meeting her 60s or something and She came forward and

that's really all they have, although they are using, he filed a defamation suit against Natalie Maines in the fifth and the Dixie Chicks, names individually and just collectively, for defamation because the they, information they had put on their website right after this is right. After the hair was found, and all that Natalie Maines, actually went up to little rock the capital she claims. She's going to see the governor, the governor would see her so she's just sauced on functionary, presented in that particular position in some public. Right to work, not, but she apparently had said something on the website about Terry has and he felt that it was Hannah Taurine, so he brought suit. Lawyer, his neck of the woods to do it pro bono and they want

through depositions, and you judge ended up dismissing the case. By evidence, but a lot of things in fact, I was sitting on my shelf like fifteen hours of pauses, depositions and they're using things He says and air as part of the case that they would put together now So I thought I know that they have against Terry on there's probably more a little things, but those are the biggies. Well. One of the things that was raised in the film and I found compelling is The timeline inconsistencies end I think that's very, very important and again we haven't mentioned that of all the people. They normally police would look at the members of a family first and what you point out in this book is Terry. Hobbs was never questioned till fourteen years. Later and it would have never been questioned if it weren't for the films. That's true.

Now the time line he includes very interesting again. This is you you have to you know you put this together that together to create your a your c, sorry not your theory but other people's theory that this David Jacoby is a very interesting case. Character because he is four at least with some people, Terry Hobbs, again, he isn't in my police, so he doesn't need an alibi per say, but he says different things to different people involving David Jacoby and then David Jacob is interviewed and says different things. Contrary to what Terry Hobbs said, so tell us what you found and what was tell us about this. This is actually a friend of PAM Hobbs family back from up in Blytheville and he, but he lived there in West Memphis. And him and Terry used to play guitar. Yeah, he did. It just how police with

yeah they interviewed, but they didn't interview Jacobi till later on either they had no reason to he's going to the same set of foggy recollections. He he's not, a hundred percent. Sure, like you said, on the timeline We have a couple of different timelines, but there close enough to around what might have been a time of death 'cause. Remember they never stab Lish timed out either but they can they can. They can narrow it down. Circumstantially probably took place and has had come to Jacobi's house somewhere of prior to six hundred o'clock on that night they played. Guitar for a while and. Terry had actually come from from home, for Steve Stevie and Jacobi's kids used to play and a little bit problem. Stevie had

PAM had already gone to work and when Terry got home, Stevens VON, so he went looking and Do you think that you know how concerned they said? Well, why did you play guitar with Skype Half an hour and Sean was mentioned, But you know it wasn't. Everybody knew each other and It's just not an unusual thing. You know this Steve to be out riding his bike but at one point it allegedly got concerned and after ships fuck and he left supporting to Jacobi for around forty five minutes and when he came back he said he hadn't found him. Now there are those who claim that that was enough time to commit the murders, and I suppose it probably was everything this strikes you when you drive around that area is a close everything. Is you know it makes people are miles and miles away, but all these sites in the trailer parks,

the Bayeux Hobbs Buyers House, all that is like walking distance, it's very close. He he didn't tell Terry at the time I mean take over his assignment yeah, where, where he Band but You just said they hadn't found Stevie, and then he left again. And it gets confusing after that, you actually have to go through the documentation and Terry, don't statements to see where he went because shortly thereafter he hooked up with Mark Byers and according right. That was the first time you ever laid eyes on Mark Byers, even though they live Molly is played the he did not Todd Moore, Michael Moore's. Dad was away on a trucking trip and Dana Moore's mom, was there and cry

Melissa,. They were there together, also review the meat came out to take their statements with Mark had already called him. Please Christopher was everyone is supposed to be, and so she came took this famous and she never made any mention of seeing Terry Hobbs, I Terry said he's in one account is in his car the whole time. In another county city was there with them, and he saw me only came and asked her. Did you see Terry Hobbs, so I can't tell you whether he was there or not. She just it was silent. They just don't say anything about, says that mark is there muscle? Is there Dana? Was there Terry said he was there and he joined the search effort at that point,. The people going in and out of Robin Hood Hills Dad. He was with his father in law.

I called her dad Well, talking about half hour forty five minutes to get down at Jackie X, senior and he entirely had gone through around. People buy you a beacon, truck, stop and doesn't start, but never never, really clear about whether they lines in the woods Pam said she went into the Woods Jacobi said he went into the words Terry House. I think he went into the woods. But in any case they didn't find anything and with that crime scene that was so trampled that it was done, It is just the night before the next day they discovered the bodies to like one hundred o'clock in the afternoon and from dawn all the way through that time, the crime scene, it's just been trampled so I only had a few things that they can rely on, like they fish their bikes added value and so

somebody had definitely thrown them in there after committing the murders or before, but probably after. Let's get to again, I think the the before we start talking to looking at Hobbs and eliminate Ing, Hobbs or including Hobbs or accusing Hobbs, and and creating a scenario, or that happened was there really or what was there the corroborating evidence that Jessie Misskelley gave in totality of the sorted out all the five confession. Under all the circumstances, one in front of or a couple infra. Their attorneys where they pleaded him not to you know plead with him, not to confess

what they did, regardless of all the top of the. What was the what was the first, the corresponding evidence. That said, yes, what Jim a Jessie Misskelley said, corresponded you know we had. We had talked of again very, very confusing when you get somebody saying there was surgical, castration and then we're talking about sea turtles or some kind of turtles, and we talk will a wound on the left side of the cheek that Jessie Misskelley had made. So tell us the things that collaborated, what he said to prove that there was some crucial evidence in his confessions, I think it was the things that he said that could be true and false the protein is lying or more 'cause. He didn't give a whole lot of cooperating evidence. The he gave were all circumstantial.

The closest thing you got the physical evidence was, he said that there was a whiskey bottle that he had drank and then, after the after the murders he left separate from you scallion I mean from echoes in Baldwin and he went walking along the railroad tracks finishing this bottle of Evans Walker, Whiskey and he threw it off the bridge there. Dance did and then I'm going back down there and finding it and it's very difficult to take a bunch of broken glass and say well, this is evidence so, but I mean it was something that he told they could kind of corroborated ' I think, the biggest problem with with That confession was that he may all these people new where he was none of which were Damien adjacent because he was supposedly said he

What is wrestling that night up and Dyas about forty miles away and. The guys that he named ok up to the standard initially lied about? dates, and then it was proven that they they didn't see him on. That particular day then it was a different day that he was there. I think they convincingly, He wasn't He wasn't where he said he was so that was a bad piece of its kind of counterevidence. I'm really goes back to the alibi, I can't think of anything that Jessie Misskelley gave them that they able to corroborate, with the exception of his dealings with Victoria, but she was supposedly working with the police. At that time 'cause. They didn't need Miss College. Yeah.

I I I'm sleeping, I think, of anything. I know that there was anything. No, in your mind, is the dna and experts minds and the courts mines in terms of historically did they take DNA, what they found, what they uncovered with their their experts. In that is that an exoneration of the West Memphis, three There is no dna linking them at that crime, scene or dna evidence at their residences. Yeah, that's a good! That's a good question. None of the dna evidence that they collected was real. They mainly useful and there there The circumstances leading up out to the alpha play had absolutely nothing to do with events a them on. You know on a panic.

They would have acquitted him on public opinion, and so I don't yeah I don't think that, because your id at the total absence of dna where they would find it is, you know, is beyond me as far as it in their houses, though sounds of the five round ends and I'll admit I'll, try, I'm not a fiber guy. I read what they said about the fiber I think their word for it, but it didn't seem particularly convincing odds, and it was all that stuff is, you know, might pizza, the exclusion of such and such and that's you it's not enough to get a condition or acquittal. So the thing is is then, is in the

Porter's minds, they were, They were sure in the first place, because based on the movies and based on their just their ideas that that the West Memphis three. Were completely innocent and there were railroaded and there was some other killer an first, what was John Mark Byers, and so they destroyed his life almost completely and then it was Terry Hobbs. And that crusade continues. Yes, it was official. Ask I'll, ask you the question, then: why do you think What's your evidence that still maintains the guilt of the West Memphis three I don't like to use the alternate suspect that, have a kind of alternate suspect in reverse and they're really there's nobody else who could have done

what they did? They were. They were glued suspects and I'll start with that they boot suspects at yeah we could, we can go ahead and use all the medical records on Damien apples as evidence of anything other than that he deserved kids. They had said are some things you understand if you're involved in this case, you're not really hard. Or either way the supporters tend to be hard for, but it falls apart. Pretty quick because. Because its nature, in this case. I I hear things like when Jessie Misskelley was getting one of these statements to the attorneys. I asked him were We're all three boys dead when they were thrown into the water and Jesse say: I know he said one of them was alive and well. How could you tell it was alive?

is there wiggling like a worm and that image just wanted me because To me that there is somebody who saw it He said he wizard like a worm. He saw that and also- so the fact that one of the Let's have water in their lungs through the ways of water in her lungs, among one we had one hundred. The other two didn't mean they were dead when they were put into the water, and one of them was alive right. Where is the absence of Damien Echols various trench coats? They searched his apartment. That night too now I say now at night they were all arrested and they searched his. His trailer and they didn't find a similar notice I wore a trench coat everywhere. He went and that's the one thing that everybody agrees on: what's not, this is Damian Apples, war trench coat. One thousand year everywhere you want the chance at seeing that time. He was wearing that trench coat. Now, all of a sudden, there are no trench coats to be found.

Please don't ask I mean they asked later at trial. Where we're trying to build. You said my parents must. But of course they didn't have him as he had pitched it. That that always that always bothered me. Well, then I will ask the question I'll, ask the questions and why I mean again not to say that I have to have all five tenants the who, what where why you know I can't nobody gets. I don't think we are very rarely, but still you I have an idea, you're very, very involved with this for six seven, I'm in ten years, almost why? Why would they do this? I mean. Is there anything? Is there anything to this angle that the police in, Prosecutors had is there nothing to it? Is there anything to it Nothing to this attack ritual per say the fact that Damian apples probably

believe pretty strongly in the occult. And if you read document called the five hundred. That was something they put together. This kind of entire psychiatric history there from all the different places, but he's been an you look back on his life, his life was hell. And I encourage somebody to get the book and read that particular? and how they can grow up? He was, an accident waiting to happen. So I think that if a drug stillness and some alcohol Jesse, so they were drawn foot. I don't know what that means and, and then you know it The story that Miss Kelly told about him on the kids over and then Is it a little

Junk southern town- and he he was despised- that can do a lot with somebody like, I said, put together this personal history. But that doesn't tell you why, and I don't really know why but I'll tell you what I also don't know why Terry Hobbs would have done I don't know why anybody would have done such thing, so your face is having to come up with an answer. That's not going to be really satisfying. No in which is her cock in your book, and there is talk, of course, of the uh the, The alternative is that a Hobbs did it and Jacob Kobe or Jacoby, was involved, and there was a couple other people's Michael Hobbs Junior. So tell us about that story and why that's in your mind doesn't have too much credibility Well, I you know David, you Cody was a friend of the families,

yes, he was a friend of Pams family from back in Blytheville and the New Stevie well, and I mean I can't I can't conceive of any situation where he would. Team up with Terry Osmond sign the other two boys. It makes sense. Cool sense that you'd have to have compelling. Physical evidence and then you don't have to worry about motives, and that's the problem in this case is you've, got a lot, I've noticed, since I know, Capella Heavens, and the the nephews of Terry Hobbs or nephew Michael Hobbs and his two friends, They came up with the story and again this is done very recently, post everything they can so the story that they heard Terry and his brother downstairs and Tori's brothers house.

Talking about the murders, Terry, basically confessing, Michael already knew this and say this is the has family secrets and we don't tell and they They took. My nephew denied any he can either he ever heard- is his father or uncle say that His two friends claim that they did they they gave affidavits. It's a polygraph and pass them at an interesting thing about polygraphs, especially in this case, is that when they, when they point to the guilt of the last month. It's three there turned out their terms. That polygraphs, but when they turned out to be Terry Hobbs, they're good. They're going to polygraph. I've. Never several clever person believes they really believe in what they did. I mean they really think that that their craft shows him something, but

but they're not admissible for reason, and but so I don't have any previous these boys at all because of the time they waste. Is there telling the truth that's a shame that they waited so long to tell somebody Those that they had Terry has never punch. Her house is never going to do any time for this crime ever. And those boys aren't well. The thing is there's many reasons why they would not go after I mean, even if more evidence came against Terry Hobbs, they likely not try to prosecute them? yes, you're right it does that, but so here's the thing I mean again for our audience is going to ask this question and I guess I'm going to have to ask this question. From what you're saying, because there's again no core- Corroborating evidence of Miss Kelly, basically or very very little and you say there is no

No evidence of, say tannic, ritual motivation, uh And Terry Hobbs, you can't imagine, motivation, and it looks like that there again, if I'm wrong, even correct me that it looks like more than one person have to either control these kids and tie them. And or tie them up so which rules out Hobbs doing it completely by himself, and then there is that presence of Pam's friend David, his hair, for being there, and so people have talked about wild hops, could've planted that and then jobs immediately, like almost like a guilty person is talking about secondary transfer. Like he's a lawyer, You say you can't imagine a a motivation or motive for Terry Hobbs and his friend David um and then but the motivation for Damien, Echols and Jason Baldwin is what is it

Damien's mentally ill and Jason is his friend he sixteen. And looking like these fourteen, if it's not occult motivation. What do you think? The motive again, I asked you before, but again, if it's not, both people don't seem to have a really good motive. Yeah, that's uh. They don't. This is what this is the problem with this case. This is the whole problem with it is that there's there's there's no motive. There's no motive! If you haven't caught Richard Ramirez Red Handed. You and having order for him either. Why did I do what he did? You know tell me why he did what he did to my satisfaction so that I can understand that he guilty beyond reasonable doubt and there isn't anything and so and Charlie Manson helter skelter? Audio C had to go into port, improves health risk, but he did it

You know that's a pretty nebulous type of motive Spend four people to their deaths. Three of them being teenage girls, the most it's just something we're gonna have to do without, in this case not going to postulate one 'cause. I have slightest idea that doesn't mean that those boys are just as dead. There was a motive or not, and you could take two hairs and say that Fifteen years later, a guy and his best friend killed his son, ok, Ok, I think that's, I think, that's a worst motive, then free wasted so Katic teenagers they carried away with that. Yeah, because all they really did was time up and drown him each one and they passed him on the back of the head with a rock that is pretty basic Jesse Knew how to bash somebody with the rock. It was very carefully is very pliable. He would do anything he was told just about in Baldwin, also very valuable. So those are just you know just things they don't prove anything. I'm not gonna sit here and tell ya what about the

Surgical precision or lack of surgical precision. What was in your mind, because they're so diametrically opposed those two theories and and the testimony from the original medical examiner. What did you find likely happened? Was it surgical? Was it animal predation or was it? Would you find well considering the size of what we're talking about animal predation isn't out of the question, but. Didn't seem like a surgical saying to me, and but I I don't really know, I'm not being an expert, I couldn't say the pretty the medals, and there was a hack alone hack and he's been spreading. So many times over the years and allow thanks but he did you know that. That's not the case. I don't want to set the stage for the case. From the next fifteen years he's the guy who only the only guy who got to look at the bodies?

Body else is going like picture. I sat in quote: listen to Warner, Spitz say that when he looked at all the marks on their bodies from the pictures that it was no doubt in his mind that this was animal product. And I said you know what I think that's I think that's nonsense because I saw those pictures too and I could find a bunch of things that look like, I don't care. If I'm on a path, ologist or not pictures, and why would anybody the I have been in that ditch for a long time, for models to build much in all three of them and the fact is they were in there say twelve Fifteen hours I don't see. I hope it all this, and but I will say that there's a mark on Steve Branches, skull that looks exact, like a functional from a knife, semen

functions, so I I nobody. Nobody would address that, and so I don't know. But but if you go Ocallaghan website at that picture is up there somewhere and that supports the use of a knife. But the wounds that they found them were so shallow it's nice that they would have had were you know when I'm talking like butter, silly, if you had a pen knife, it will make a deep enough mark the deepest partial in their founders. Attention three slash four, but that's more than a turtle can do so. No, I don't know I was watching. I don't know, I know what killed them killed the worthy point: objects in the Basel regions and skull free kids, there lined up their head smashed in and that's what killed them. Was there one more of this corroborates,

question was there. I know there was controversy over, but what did you think about that? The one rocker operating statement. He said about the the wound on the left, cheek of the the boy. But he couldn't have known otherwise, I didn't think a whole lot about that. Unfortunately, Jessie Misskelley was he made so much The contradictory confuses statements that, and these boys were so badly. Brutalized is really hard for me to link up a fished with a wound on the side of the, but but it's certainly possible impossible. Now, the big part of your book, is of course the journey of John Mark Byers, anatomy is a sympathetic character based on just the evidence in Newport for some bad luck, you know full foolish behavior, however,

Again, I got have sympathized with a guy that loses his son and his genuinely distraught like this man and then what Hawley? put it to this guy or specifically, not Hollywood. But specifically, these film makers so tell us a little bit about what this effect. What the effect of being at used did to him at the time that he was still grieving and for those people that I not understand the reaction that they saw in film. How did you I was explain to you by understanding his character. How could you explain. Somebody to say listen, you just don't know what this this can all create, and and that presentation is much different than the man that I know. Yeah that's, not easy either. Obviously, you know Choirs that I knew for seven hundred and eighty nine years what

I never saw that guy in the movies. So you know I like that, except to see them in the movies, so he never really offered. Excuses or even explanations for some of the things that he did. You know he, some basic How much does a scene in the movie where him and Todd more blaster parts and pumpkins pretend I said the last night this period- he told me that he went to the hotel bar waited to the film makers and got draw I went there and shoot, but did Mark Byers have to get drunk to. In burning the grades in effigy he's a very, very emotional die and I will say this point that I met his entire family now and will put his dad was passable

her mom is sad, mom password this brother sisters and nephews and everything and is the only one- is even remotely the way he is. I mean there this just average, little Arkansa family there, nice decent people. He had it. Bringing in fact Smiley said that you might have even been a little spoiled, but Why not As boredom apparently started, I'm getting into trouble as a teenage, there was nothing to do there and Mark Tree Arkansas Population I think they're down to three hundred, and so he but I think he did get into a drug dealing thing. Is marijuana, but he was into it for awhile, and you gotten thought a couple of times and. But he didn't go far too Paris.

Paris, Junior College s Harrison Jewelers school many guys degree in horology and he up a started taking this out and then as early qualities? He was pretty straight. Is going around collecting jewelry from people that need to repair he he got married once and another. It produced two children, then last, what's wrong after that. Many shortly thereafter met Melissa defer. And marry her, and they opened up the jewelry store together unless Memphis But you know I guess you just had a little Krooked Bent to me now. You know some people have to do things that aren't quite on the up and up like the robot, watch into them, where he had. As a junior, he was able to get some more. Let's watch it sent to him. On on back. Tell 'em in the jewelry store well and he

and it that he said that he never received them and they sold the two inches to Somebody Cherokee Village, you, actually got caught for that, and right around the time of the murders, because what I ended up using the money, though they had raised forum really sorry. He said Publicly, he didn't have enough money to various sign, so there was a fun that churches had started in, all three victims, families and mark use that money to pay off the jeweler so that he wouldn't press charges not any other time they probably just dressing up, but because of what was going on, they wouldn't pay it off. So it was a little things like that murders. I think I think things got worse form now here His wife was an opioid addict and each

I can then smoke a lot of pot and when they went to their exile up in Cherokee Village, they just chose a perfect place for them to find trouble and they found lots of it. It was that really that led to no a succession of of crimes and arrest that led to his being president, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. So you know, that's my Take on it, you, wouldn't you wouldn't know that the mark before the murders in the mark now or difference in the guy in between Mark Byers. Now you think, use my sky around and he is he's realized. I sixties- and I mean I from all the things I've seen to it's. It's you see the difference and I mean to me. I just got to say I don't have too many opinions about movies and documentaries, but I couldn't. I couldn't believe that the staff while the documentary style- or I thought it was irresponsible? Those scenes

were staged. Obviously you can't say that spontaneous besides, I would have never included them. I anyway, why would you even anyway them there's only one reason, and that was the whole thing about and the second movie really didn't have enough material for a movie first, first, who is completely different. Animal. The second movie. Without mark wires and free, the West Memphis three club, you didn't have any movie at all: yeah yeah uh. Well, the question I was going to ask was: why did mark Byers then, after he knew the horrendous treatment and the unfair treatment he was in prison, realizing didn't even get to see the premier those movies or the second one till he was released. Why did he cooperate with the third one I was wondering if you have

I I was on a scene by that time that that third movie was made during during my time they had actually is a simple answer is money. Now, He said that he would be an opportunity friends. They show people that he wasn't, that crazy redneck that he was in the other. Two movies and also if you look at the third one he's not featured anywhere near is prominently Becaus, he didn't have. I cannot, but they wanted to. And they and they had long joke, He didn't pay people to be in. This is an documentary you're not supposed to pay people yeah maybe pay their expenses for interview, maybe, but he paid a lot of people in Mark included and he got up in front of a bunch of people benefit and said: yeah. We don't pay people, I called him out on that. He walked

back but yeah. I think it's more than more than that, need to exonerate himself or rehabilitate himself, I think they even with money. That's my opinion. It's such a it's such a fascinating case and and mark. This is just a fascinating character and his and his wife's dies- and I think the worst thing of all this has to be that somebody implicates him in his wife's death. So tell us about that that that tells about the implication. Yeah yeah, the implication, and I think that really drove the rage that pushed him over the edge. Now that Ended up getting out of prison, he was he angry beyond beyond imagination.

You can say that he open themselves up, so he did if he hasn't been in the second film. We wouldn't have to deal with that, but it and yeah. He tried in the NFL Would you be accused him on film? Add more Turner's life and yeah, yeah? It was a really really amazing thing: someone to do they didn't. They didn't even know him and they did it based on something Meryl ever had written, but- there was a full investigation marking system an autopsy, because he knew that what people are going to think bye. And I give it in the book there's a section on Melissa's death and what the Many things could have been that caused her death. You know she was up she smokes. She was a drug user

yeah she she was completely decimated in Greece straighten to the loss of her son, because unlike market Christopher Biological Child and she loved that boy and she she acted like any any mother would and you can give up your life so anyway. She had a million things that kill them are fires that have been in awhile. You roll over his bed after an afternoon nap in color, but they didn't think of you know that they just decided. They won't start, questions at him on screen to plant the seed, in other people's minds and that's why, to this day, I forget, the KGB. I'm gonna grab what they did to, but then his mark Byers was cool right now. This, like I said this, is such a fascinating tale. But then again you don't sum it up in sort of saying: hey, listen! This isn't a cautionary tale, and this is what we

need to, because we already, we already passed the effect, because now we have making of a murderer which again so it's again, the same sort of effect with people like and some of the same care features in Hollywood, Alec, Baldwin, just demanding you know right up Obama is the people they can think they can overturn things with the president. So the thing is is that as a cautionary tale. What would you say because the person that saw this what and you went through this into time with changing perceptions, changing facts being revealed and still your assessment? What's the cautionary tale, I think the cautionary tale is, is age, old and very simple. It's don't believe everything you see in here. If you do your due diligence- and I was raised that way- I raised my kids- do your due diligence, don't The first thing you get as as gospel because

you know it may not be. If people have done that in this case, who knows all about it. And I'm talking about the jury to you, I don't know what was in their minds, but I would have to guess that they were predisposed against the defendants, but but Have also we have you have something that you're not I won't be able to avoid like. Ah, is this true in West Memphis at the police department good guys. There guys there's a lot of people who are not up to the task. They did not handle of it in. They didn't really know how to interview such that they talked with functions of people, but how many of them did they disqualify by by trying to implicate them? So if you If it happens in West Memphis, Arkansas Arkansas, it

would be better if it happens in LOS Angeles and that's what a lot of people said and yet what did they do in LOS Angelus Oj Simpson goes well was if the police would have done this. One basic this. My question police would have followed up by interviewing Terry Hobbs if they would to scratch that surface a little bit? Would they have been so committed So the Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin theory to the point that they would have again. Well, let's face it, the questioned Miss Kelly, with a lot of information brought to that interview will say What Vicki came right.

She'd already talked to them and told them a Damien. It said to her inside so yeah Jesse was. Hi he was predisposed for sure, but the. Yeah you're right in that, if it I'm not going, actually what would have happened, but I believe it would be a lot different if they had talked to Terry Hobbs like there. Post? Now he wasn't home, it was An evil thing on their part was just really sloppy because they talk to PAM and they let PAM talk for the both of them and It might be ok if it's you and me in our neighbor, but these are these are two victims and more often the now they have something to do with the prime special in the death of a child. So for them to not interview him is inexcusable

and they have no excuse for it either. I mean you ask him today that we just missed it and they did they just missed it and that's that's emblematic how this whole investigation wanted. Some guys are very good, some guys not so much yeah, so crap yeah! Well, I I wanna thank you for coming on and talking about this, and this is just to a just, a fascinating book and a fascinating perspective. You get from us, especially covering John Mark Byers, because you you're in the middle of this maelstrom, where he he's in the eye of the storm here and things change. Completely. So it really is in companies. Is the entire trial and all of the hysteria and then the post trial. And, like you say, a very profound the unprecedented movement in the way people were released from prison and the the result. Despite the legal decision, it was really how you

good, trance end. The legal courts in uh Arkansa with Hollywood and some rock musicians. So it's interesting yeah. You want to know, I want to ask if people are interested in contacting you, do you have a website, uh do facebook, and so they might see some of the other material uh. I don't. I no longer have a website. Our blog, but they can contact me through the same way you did through the Facebook page. For untying the knot, great is there there was just before. Do you go that you are following this book up with another book about the case. Is that true or no? No, that Steven not true had enough of this yeah? I actually did start a treatment back in the day I called skill TSN, but

I got out of it real fast and then I gotta I wanted to get back to my guitar. So right no more books, yes well, thank you very much a great for coming on and talking about your fine book on tying the knot. John Mark fires in the West Memphis three. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. You're quite welcome Dan. Thank you. Thank you. Goodnight.

Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with the Quicken Loans thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two: five percent the receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions, because when it wasn't enough to states and one hundred thirty- and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle, it took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, please be the cheetah and learn your animal, isn't the cheetah, but the far less appealing blobfish

Come on to add insult to injury, you could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you, fifteen percent, or more on motorcycle insurance,