Flow here with a really weird word: buttery butter, Ree, not quite birds, butterfish or maybe buttery, is like butchery or bakery a shot that sells artisanal butter products dig in America now aware that even more weird flotation should not really word, but it is really good protection for your new home through me and progressive, no ifs and or batteries about about it, sorry save an average of seventeen percent on car insurance when you buy a home in on us through progressive, progressive casually insurance company affiliates another ensures discount not available in all states are situations Huh.

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan happy. Good evening, this is your down to pass. He for the programme to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about them on January 11th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five, the deputies outside Austin.

Texas found a mutilated hi, it's Jamie Progressives number one. Two employee leave a message at the Hey Jamie, it's being Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your Acapella group, Matt Harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean you're, the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name, your price tool. It should be you given me the pep talk now get out there hit that high note and take mad harmony, all the way to nationals this yeah. Sorry, progressive casualty. Insurance company in affiliates pricing coverage match limited by state law body laid across a cold campfire had destroyed cans, hands, cut off skin singed by fire in less than three days they had the kills on a small apartment. Shy, Christopher Hatton was shot at point. Blank range in his bed, Stephanie Lynn, Martin. Despite her devout southern Baptist, upbringing was reborn as a solitary stripper in Cowan

the girl, William, am boosting bird was a good looking wanna be living his own lies. They came together in an explosion of violence and sex. Then he decided there was only one thing missing from the romance murder, but within days they were under arrest and Sadie prosecutors learn the ugly truth behind the senseless slaughter of boosting bergs friend, how twisted fantasies of murder fuelled the couples lost and led to the unspeakable crime and how the truth tried to cover up how they and the and how they both tried to cover up their heinous deed until there they finally ran out of lies. Wages of sin is the book were feature this evening and murder. Was there turn on with my special gas, Susie Spencer? Thank you for agreeing to this interview and welcome to the program, Susie Spencer. Thank you very much

thank you now describe her our audience. First offset the setting for this story. The Travis County near Austin, Texas, tell us what this community was really like describe before us. Please. Well often the always been considered so called liberal. The only liberal city in Texas Work is known for our hippies and our politicians and the University of Texas, and that that's mainly as well and, of course, our rock and roll music. So we considered the live music capital of the world, or at least that's why we promote ourselves, don't know what reality is are. You do certainly have a reputation now. The question I was asked because I'm always curious. I think the audience might be too is. Why did you decide to write about this particular trial in this particular case, of course, the subject of your book wages of sin? Why do decide to write this book I ate

headlines just got me curious, and I always have this thing where, if something happens in my life to me, that sort of like the signal that I should do this book and I so it was already in the back of my head, then I had been considering it and then I was at the Texas Book Festival one day and I looked over at the booth that was next to me. 'cause I was standing in the Writers League of Texas booth looked over and I started talking to the people booth and it ended up that the girl had been a waitress at the Yellow rose Strip Club where Stephanie Morton, the killer in wages of sin worked, and she said

there's this story. You should really do and it was wages of sin, and I went oh my gosh I've been thinking about it, so that was sort of my signal to myself that I should do it then that's why right? Well, let's before we get into Stephanie Lynn Mart and let's go to the other subject of your book or one of them is Chris Hatton and tell us about Chris Hatton his early life. What were his parents like? What was his upbringing like? Where did he grow up? Tell us and our audience about Chris Hatton he's just a drop dead, cute Alabama boy that charmed everyone in Texas, with his southern drawl, because in Texas you might be able to tell with me we have kind of a hard accent. So the southern Alabama thing really church, charmed people here and the reason

he moved to Texas was because I like say he grew up in Alabama and his father died. They don't really know why he died because was running a fever and it spiked. He became delusional from that and then the police, called into the hospital where the father had been taken because of his fever and the police, supposedly beat him trying to you know, get this delusional man under control and a few days later, he so so they aren't sure whether he died from the beating or from the fever. His mother, who then was left taking

pair of will and his younger brother Brian was allegedly you know, an alcoholic with all kinds of issues, and so will excuse me will coming Chris kind of went. You know a little bit wild, and so he was shipped to his uncle here in Texas. Who was a the police officer actually in the sheriff's department, and so that's how he ended up in Texas. Actually it round rock high school, where he was a bit other than the other students and he was in the junior ROTC and he had this dream of oil being a Navy seal either that or a fashion model 'cause. He was again so dadgum cute. I love to look at the pictures of him 'cause. He was just so cute.

So what did he do about his dream about being a navy seal other than talking about it quite a bit with his friends and throughout his life he still or at least in in his young years. He talked about being a navy seal quite a bit. It did dominated conversations. So what did he do towards his dream? Other than narrow DC about being a Navy seal? Well, when he got out of high school, he went joined and eighty there. It ended up that it wasn't. You know his fantasy. He was more like busy swapping index the brother of men and I think, painting the head of the ships out in San Diego rather than training to be a Navy seal and part of the problem, was that he was madly in love with a young woman surpass LISA pace who he had met through Junior ROTC and Round rock.

And so he went a wall one night to go home to have to fly back to taxes, to see LISA allegedly- and I don't really know if I'd buy this story, but allegedly he no doubt packed up his clothes. I think in some plastic jumped off the side of the age in his and and know know, went to the swam to shore put on his dry. Clothes went straight to the airport and flew home and so then he eventually got out of a kick out of the Navy, because that would at least to say when it was there any talk of what LISA said to him when she knew that he had done. He had. He had gone a wall because she had an interest in the military. The Navy, as well so will lose their any did you did they talk about what they had said to each other

about this? Well. You're gonna have to piracy refresh my memory a little bit here, but I would, if I recall correctly, there were, but there was a part of her that was, you know like. Man? You know my guy, you know, skip the Navy for me, but at the same time, because she was also military are met near met, they admitted Junior ROTC and she was very responsible in the military that was sort of like oh, my gosh. Have you done so? I think she had a bit of mixed emotion there about it So now he what happens as a result of him going AWOL, yes, my charge from the army, yet what data from the Navy? Yes, and came back home and was feeling pretty much like a screw up. You know because there was a part of him, because he also had other problems in the navy that he, if I recall correctly, he got trouble for driving, drunk and stuff like that 'cause, even though he had an image as a sweet little.

Could you know with his family that they thought? Oh, he never drink or anything. He also had a heavy duty party side so when he came back to Texas We like a failure that he had blown his dream. You know the fantasy of modeling, isn't one you can really pursue an often he but feeling pretty dejected and he and LISA moved in together we're engaged which they got engaged while they were in the night. Air or when he was in the Navy and but he pretty much spin this time at the night, clubs, partying and then would come home and in the meantime, she's going down to San Antonio for her ROTC tray

name and so she's working like a dog and she's, getting the little irritated that he's just going out in parting and spending money, and I probably well, let's just go on for their wool and will come back and while the thing is that they eventually to split up, and but it's it's more from the it's from his initiative, that they do split, he moved out of the apartment, Moser stuff. What why? What did you find? The reason why they did finally break up and and and who initiated this Break up it's all that was never sort of what I was going from from the way had talked to me and she- and I spent numerous our sitting at my. My dining table talking kind of bossy. You know at least she won't back. Then I don't know what she's like now. I don't want to be know, condemn the person who she's out there listening somewhere, where she

kind of ruled him. She controlled everything. You know she wanted to control the money, the shopping, and so I think it was just he was kind of fat ' He wanted to go out and enjoy life, be a young man and so of tied down and You know he had his best buds to go out and party with him now what was his character, because there is some contradiction in terms of a guys that once the party, but then you do talk about his character, at least a lot of people talk about his character of him being shy and not much of a drinker. So it was really interesting. 'cause. When I was writing the book I felt like I never really got to know Chris and finally, I realized why, because he had such different images, he had one image with his family. Is the good clean cut sort of studious good boy, and then he had this other side of him that

who's going AWOL and was going out and drinking all the you know every night and partying and country western dancing and getting into fights. So I think that's why I felt like. I didn't really know him because I wasn't sure he knew who he was you know which I am I am I, this clean cut kid who's going to help my aunt Holly, who I'm living within, do every good deed for her and make her happy find the one who's worried about my younger brother or Am I the one who's ticked off my girlfriend, whose Manop

realizing my life and then let me go out and drink and party and country western dance. Well, there is at some point I don't know how important it is. It don't really explain how important this is, but LISA finds a yellow rose bar the Strip bar that Stephanie Marten dances that she finds a yellow rose. T shirt in the Petit here it ended and asked him some question so as much as she might be boss, your dominating, I know being a guy that something like that will kind of put a damper on everything, including try. You'll probably never hear the end of it, but I can just imagine how much trouble you trouble you to try to explain this away or downplay this t shirt. So now now. Occasionally, when I woke up, if I recall correctly, he swore he would hear

look for a beer companies delivery company and if I recall correctly, he explained it office? Oh, I was just doing my job, you know and that's how I got the t shirt right and then you could probably try to explain why he kept it. Again it. So it might be a ok explanation, but I think you could add to suit his problems dramatically now. The thing is when we talk about the Yellow rose Strip are here that it is a topless bar is met, Mr Compactor, ironically, I was then touched you today with a person who used to work there. Ok I'll tell us about tell us about the bar itself: the yellow rose. What type of you know what type of establishment is? Is it a diver Zulu the little class here and tell us about

Neil Martin. You can go back to back early upbringing as well, because it is as you as we talked about before she was. She comes from a christian background and and ends up being in a Strip bar in Texas. So tell us about Stephanie Martin from what you learned in your research about her background in her parents and then tell us where she got to at the end and the prominent she had at this yellow rose Strip club start off at the Strip Club, yellow relish back and then those days it was considered like one of the two high end strip clubs in town? It was one of the places to go one of those type where you draw and they have the valet service where they put put the expensive cars out front. Whereas you know some dive, where you're going to go and just park in the back and jump in so yeah she was considered,

supposedly a really high end a stripper, but, like you said we'll get to that in a moment, Stephanie kind of like like Chris, is a bit of a dichotomy dichotomy in that she did have this southern Baptist developed. You know background where she was in church. She went to church camp. Her parents were very, very involved in the church. I was just noticing a while ago that I opened the section of the book about her where she's lost her cat and the cat comes home, and then her mother's going clean up her room and discovered this note that that Stephanie had written same dear God. Please bring kitty home safely, and so she had this reputation of being so loving animals, but it seemed like from the beginning of time she had this exhibitionist.

You know in her that makes me sort of question what all went on an her background, because when she was in the sixth grade- and you have to remember this- is you know back a few years ago- I think she was born in nineteen. Seventy two. This was the time that it was as liberal as it is now. So I can sixth grade she was pulling little girls into the bathroom 'cause. I'm feeling up whether you know the bean sexual with em right, then she would go off to church camp and then she would show up at school, then say: oh look, oops! I accidentally forgot to put on my underwear, and so it was and she's she's, charming she's, personable, she's outgoing, she loved to dance. She took dance lessons from it

over childhood on up and was a competitive dancer, and so her parents will sort of present this image. As she was this good daughter. I believe she was the youngest of the three kids, but then she was also getting in trouble all the time, I'm like she wanna dance competition and that same year she was pregnant and smoked their first joint then she would like go and you know: go to school, the community call college? But then I remember that she was telling me something about join with the occult that you know with Ouija boards and with cats and stuff. You know here she supposedly loves animals, but I remember they would, I think, it's more like a fantasy land or something that about the torture of cats in and she

she seemed to me that she loved to create drama that you know. Supposedly, Well, when we talk about her boyfriend will boost Buzenberg who presented himself is a CIA man which will get too in a minute Stephanie bought into this, but I really think she wanted to buy and to achieve there's no way. I believe that she believed he was really a CIA hitman, except it fed into her, to have to have this flashy big, bold life like who, supposedly when they went to try out at the Strip club at the yellow, rose to dance. I think she tries to present it where oh, they were pulling her there. When reality she was the one saying: oh, let's go, let's go, let's try this out right.

So she was the good girl trying to be a bad girl, or vice versa. Right there was interesting to is that to lend to say maybe the parents being in denial or being naive or a combination of both. Apparently, according to your book, the father didn't know she worked at this yellow rose. If I remember correctly, one of your coworkers mentioned mention that he thought he saw Stephanie there and then she just said: oh I'm a cocktail waitress or something but do know the father had some issues if I'm again. Recalling correctly, I think he sometimes had a little bit of a gambling problem and I think he had mental health issues and battles with depression, a lot, and so my I had always been curious whether he had or mental health issues, then

he allowed us to know and that maybe that was going on with Stephanie that she also had some mental health issues. That would urge her into the these fantasy that you know she kind have created right now. What how did Stephanie in Chris Meet and what was their relationship exactly well, shall I say that they didn't get along? They met through his roommate. Will bird who eventually became Stephanie's boyfriend and I believe they met at the yellow rose, because you know the yellow rose in Austin back in those days was where all young men went I always acquainted the place. Has the age girls in the B girls, the bee girls are the ones that dance in the time that a ones are the ones at night and the lack the a plus once don't even bother to come in and top ten o clock at night?

Could I remember when I was doing my research and I would go to the club hey, you know the rider, I'm not a party here, I'd be there, you know, seven eight clock in the place is dead and then by ten o clock MA, I'm exhausted. We want to get out of there and that's when it's just starting to go so of the girls like Stephanie would only come in then, and and at that point the young man to come in at that at that time are very serious on getting drunk and seeing the girls dance right now will boost in Burg, we won't get into. We will get into what he did say to Stephanie what he did tell Stephanie about his life and who he was and his and his father and

tell us about what will boost and bird told Stephanie Martin. We thought we already alluded to it. He told her. You were for the CIA. Tell us the whole incredible story that she had to swallow and accept wound. He's he's sitting in the club, and she says that she was mesmerized by him, because he was one of the few that when he would talk to her, he would look in her eyes. Instead of her chest and that when she would offer to give him a lap dance would say no. No! No. I just want to talk to you and then would tipper like crazy just to talk. So, oh she totally love that and she says that he was really hard to get to know that she had to really pull out information from him.

Then the information that she allegedly pulled out from him was that you know he was this wealthy guy, I think, grew up on a ranch or somethin and was, had discover working for an orthopedic company here in town and but that was just his cover because he was really a CIA hitman, and so he was this good guy killing for his country, and there was another part to the t, even though he was young I think he lied about his age, or at least he lied about US education that had a pre med degree and he also thirty years of age, just to top everything off, he was going to inherit to millions of dollars so that this man who taught him how to shoot- and you know, taught him basically how to be a hit man, and so he was yeah poor. Well, he's he's one of these that

will and Chris to me never really had a chance where Stephanie grew up in a comfortable middle class family where her dad worked for an oil company in Oklahoma. You know well headed them if tobacco to Chris had you know this father who died a supposedly abusive alcoholic mother and then he shipped away and will family just according to will really screwed up the family split up supposedly

be cause. The father was a drug attic and abuse the kids physically and emotionally, and by split up I mean that they were living in one state and part of a move to Texas and part of them stayed behind because the family was so abusive and will was just spent his life looking for someone to love him and accepting, and then he got involved in the church in his family was very against that you know, and but he loved the church because he felt like he had a family, and so he was sort of torn between the family he wanted, which was know

He wanted to be loved by his real family, but couldn't get that at least the way he needed and the church family which loved him the way he wanted, but wasn't his real family. So I don't know I always felt sorry for will, but I also felt like he had a after this happened and he realized what he had done. I always felt like he got his ass. Together simply because he refused to talk to me, and I thought that was really smart of him right now. Obviously Chris and will are living together. He's not he's not he's in some contact with LISA Pace, but it for all.

Two purposes of relationship is over and know they were still communicating with each other at that time, but at the same time it will, as is, is having a relationship with Stephanie Lynn, Martin, and they are roommates Chris and will according to will there's information that he has about Chris, that he doesn't like about Chris certain information, negative information What does will tell Stephanie about Chris? Well, he he basically tells him that he stole a bunch of money from him. If, if that's, what you think Now, what I remember- and so he is, you know just basically referring to him as loser. I remember that Stephanie would walk into the house and or to the apartment and Chris would be glued to the tv and he would be watching a video and should say what is it and it was his video

when he was graduating. You know, and maybe I'm forgotten what he could you don't call it Navy blue. Camp, but whatever that is right, and so he was just really depressed and they would sit there and that have a dart dart board ended, throw things out of the dark, at it. I remember that there were holes in the world from it and will constantly told Stephanie what depressed loser. Basically, you know Chris was, and then he came home Christmas I mean, will was always telling Stephanie had all this money, like you say coming in and that he made milk since the dollars for these heads for the CIA, and you know bragged about how much money he would make from these hits. But yet he was always broke.

So when he didn't have the money he started. Blaming. Oh Chris stole my money and that supposedly made Stephanie mad right yeah. He talked about Chris basically will said that he supported Chris and then had given him money to pay utility. So he said the utilities weren't being paid that he was spending his money and just defying him constantly. Then it was something very important where he had certified checks and apparently the only person could steal that check would have been Chris, and so he told her that they needed to knock him out and search the room to find this check, and so tell us a little bit of a that they did go to this and find a strong box, apparently or will had said he had found the strong box and there a credit card so go from

replace. Well very well was just always basically lie. Will I say line, I dont know the actual facts, because who knows one thing you learn in true crime? There is the killer story, the victim story. There's the judges story, the prosecution story, there, the same story and the real quality is a combination of all of that. So was a true crime writer you just try to piece it together. The best you can to figure out what the facts are. So it's you know they. I think everybody was basically lying and it was just whatever would feed Stephanie to make her feel good is what they would tell so

they eventually decided, because what we're missing one of the big facts I think in this and tell me if I'm getting ahead of this is one day when the will was telling Stephanie one of his. You know Gloria stories about killing someone where he would talk about. Oh, I climbed up in this tree, and I had to wait there for hours and hours and Stephanie would be an edge. Quite really, really tell me more tell me more in it. She said you should say what is it feel like to kill someone? I want to know what it feels like to kill someone so when this happened that their angry, yes for allegedly stealing this money that you know obviously will do

really have, because what his real job was was polishing orthopedic parts and have an orthopedic in fact in town, so he wasn't making the big bucks, but he would try to present two Stephanie. He was to be no big, taking her own trap that they decided to kill Chris, so that Stephanie could know what it felt like

to kill someone. Am I getting too ahead of the story for nor? No, I think it's important. I just wanted you to talk about how you know it's hard to say what actually happened in you spent quite a bit of the book. I try to get to that because you interview everybody, you possibly can in new asked, and you ask all these questions. I just didn't really know if that was part of what was really generally accepted, as fact that she had actually said that I know that she admitted at she probably could have said something that she was curious. I just don't get it. It seems very convenient for will to say that, of course, I will find out more as the story goes on anyway. I just I didn't want. I didn't know that. That's what exactly will we're gonna we're going to speak about because, but anyway, it's I'm glad. You brought it up now. The thing is that they are talking about wanting to do this for the x,

variance or let's, let's put it this way, they both will. Has it a reason to do this and she has a reason to do this. Maybe it's her see experience. They both think Chris is as a dirt ball or weirdo deserves to die. Put him out of his misery. They even used the David spoke about that. So tell us about their plan, their initial plan, cuz, there's a the conspiracy and then there's a actual murder, so tell us about their original plans and to deal with Chris hat. Oh well. At one point they were just I going going to. You know loading up with sleeping pills and she she was very specific on when I say she. Obviously Stephanie was very specific about the kind of sleeping pills that they tried and do you know what the store and read the labels carefully and picked him out and the sleeping pills supposedly didn't work. So I believe at one point they were going to put rat poison in his burrito,

and so I think well came by with a burrito and Chris wasn't there. So we left it for him, but I don't know why I don't know if I made this up in my head, but I have this thing in my head: where will brings the brain go there and it's in Chris is that they're, so he eats it himself. You know so it's kinda like maybe they bought the rat poison, but I don't think it ever actually made it in there. No will may have told Stephanie that are aware, but now they they tried several several times to allegedly to kill him before finally giving up on it and now from everything that you know and in so that's where we'll just schiphol a little bit ahead, tell us about the actual murder itself and tell us what you think really actually happened.

Who did watt an? Why but tell us about the actual murder God I hate to tell what I actually talk. Some more scared, I'm going to get soon, but it's hard to do because we don't have that much of a budget but yeah it's well. Bottom line is, if I recall correctly, Chris, was lying in bed and they came in and took a shotgun. And blasted him now Stephanie will say she wasn't there and that will killed him, but but when they were arrested, she said no, that I shot him. The cause heat a Chris tried to write me because in Stephanie's eyes everyone was always wanting her and suppose it

she constantly and it seemed to something that her mother had to these fears of rape, which again makes me wonder what happened in her background, but so, she is. I mean she was constantly throwing out this rate scenario with May, like, oh, I went with this guy after work, but I was scared. He was going to write me. It's is she brought this line up a lot of the so when the police arrested them? Eventually again, I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead a little bit. She said, oh Chris tried to write me, so I shot him in self defence and then later on, she said. No, that will shouting, and the idea of one of the things I will never forget is how the police

to describing to me the blood room, the room when they did the luminol because Stephanie and will try to some degree to clean up the crime scene. They shot him in the bedroom at the apartment and they Then then they came and came after. The murder came back and tried to do a little bit of a paint job to cover it up and the police said when they they spread the luminol. You know SP the women all and turned off the light that it was just glow. Everywhere, with blood dripping everywhere that they had never seen anything like it and if I recall that, because of the blood be but being between two layers of paint,

what kind of flash like lightning in the room, while the other thing is he was his head- was blown off from the shotgun blast, and then they took this body eventually out of that apartment, they may rare blood the drain of blood and about the rest of the blood. So you can imagine that there still was more and then rapid, regardless of what ever Stephanie Martin said of not being there. She does say admitted said regardless. She did go and help transport, this body clean up the body. She was there to witness soon after the murder, regardless of whether she was there or not. Whether anybody believes that, so they did try to dispose his body. What did they do? Where did they put the body and in what condition did the police find the body? Finally?

Well they wrapped it up and carried the body out like it was a rug or something put it in the back of wills, pickup truck and drove around often in the middle of night, trying to find the perfect place to dump the body they would like go. No, this place is a right that places arrived. This place, isn't right, they finally drove I'm guessing it's probably twenty thirty miles outside of town to Lake Travis to a place called Pace Bend park which is of nice peaceful, happy place that back at one point, I think it was the Texas version of the health. Angels used to allegedly you know, have killings out there, but nowadays you know a nice happy campground, where people go for picnics on the holidays and stuff

Then it was a warm January night and in the middle of the night they drove to pace than park by Lake Travis me hair down Tord the shore and at one of the barbecue pits, but set up an put Chris on top of it. Actually, I think they put the firewood put Chris on top and then Stephanie took a hacksaw which they had brought with them and storing. Throwing off the hands allegedly. This was because well said we ve gotta get rid of the hands because of the finger print, which does not make any sense at all, because hey got, you got teeth, no teeth with staff that word in a fine, but they didn't. They didn't wanting to be identified by the hands. So Stephanie took the hacksaw and started sawing off the hands.

And I remember her specifically when I was interviewing her telling me about how difficult it was to sell off the hands that she couldn't get a good groove going, so she kept having the to start doing this again. It's really weird, because a few weeks ago I was in my backyard pruning trees and I was using a hacksaw and every time I would. Do a a I would think about Stephanie because the limbs I would I was cutting off were about the size of a bone in the hand nor the arms the wrist, and I just kept thinking how hard this must have been, because I was working so hard to cut off that tree limb, and you know a tree limb,

it's only you know, a few inches in diameter is not going to be as strong as a bone and what what makes it it would have been understandable if you could. If you had gone all these people were on drugs, but they weren't right. There were stone, sober and so then, once she, I think they got like one hand off or something and just got tired and gave up 'cause I was you know, I think the sun was getting close to rising or something, and so they wanted out of there and so said the body on fire and let the hands there

That they had to cut off so they couldn't be identified. Will they just left the hands there tucked it under the body? They did panic, though, because I did hear some dogs barking, so they abandon their plans and left the body there. Now who discovered the body or how was the body discovered, not specific, who discovered? How was it discovered and then Did the? How did the police proceed from there? Now? This was just so sad. There was a young man with his son. I think it if I recall correctly, the son was like three years old, maybe five somewhere, I think three, the five and they were looking for a great camping scottish spot because they were planning on. I fun Father son evening.

And they look up and they see something the devs like that. Oh so he goes and looks, for you know a law enforcement guy in the park and gets out of the car and saying look. I don't want my son to hear this, but I think there's a dead body down there and the law enforcement guys going yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard this story all the time. It's just a dead deer or something in the guys going now now you know, come look you or or you know. Let me tell you where it is in the law enforcement guy because at sunset the next day getting close to sunset, the got the law enforcement, guys say a man, if you don't show me where this is we're never going to find this before dark. You have to take me an the guy who found it's like. No, no! No! I don't want my son to see this. I'm going to get out of here he's going. No, no, you have to take me so they drive up and the law enforcement guy

it's like seeing this and going no, this isn't it dear. Maybe this is a mannequin because he's just seen this white white skin 'cause, like I say it's in January, and he pulled up and he's going. Oh no, this does look human and the kid is in the truck going and there there saying oh just yell, that this was a man can or something, and so that my son will hear this and the funds in the truck going or I think it was a ban- was going now. I saw her on the legs. It was just all that poor kid. So that's what started going where then, The law enforcement guy will got on the radio and called in his superiors to you know, identify that this was this young man

and of the way they actually identified him. As you know, I had said that they wrapped his body. And you know basically a sleeping bag and it was identified by Chris Hatton's military. You know markings on there with his name and I think part of the social security number and then you know all of this was so law enforcement oriented because

Here Chris Hatton was the nephew of a sheriff's officer. I think it was the guy who found the body. I think he was involved in law enforcement and then the copy it's like if you're gonna shoot somebody don't kill. The nephew of a cop is also the ant. This aunt Holly that was married to you know his uncle. She was a cop too. So, of course, with this you know the cops are going to be all over it now. The thing is that how did police? I know police, put this together pretty quickly, but how did was the key to them? Putting this together, obviously they're going to want to go talk to Chris Hatton's roommate But how did police get turned on to these two people so quickly? Well, they they went to after the body was identified. They went to the apartment and so then

we're doing the all and see. I know that this is definitely a crime scene. They notice that this crime scene isn't completely cleaned up there going to be back, so they basically just waited for them to show up which they did and then they took him in for questioning- and you know Stephanie said: oh, I did it. You know he tried to write me, and so I shot him. You did when you did interview her later on in the end of the book. You talk about how she said that they had a few precious minutes where against police procedure, the to accuse were left alone in the car together and that's where she had that plan. She admitted among the rape and murder. Yes, those interesting again at its. If what I

find interesting is every case that I have worked on where the Travis County, Sheriff's department has been involved and as opposed to the Austin Police Department. There have always been what seemed like really screw up in the investigation and that's not coming simply from me. That's coming from the attorneys that I have interviewed about. The case have been involved in it, and so what I discovered, because I you to live in an area that was patrolled by the sheriff's department and the supposed to the Austin police, and what I saw was that they're they're really good people who try really hard and want to do their jobs well, but at that point- and it may have changed immensely- they just weren't trained well now in

forecast quite a bit- is dedicated to the end of the incredible trial and and the investigation of what actually went on because you have so much to so many pathological liars here at least a couple of them anyway, where it's hard to sort out what actually happened in so you spent quite a bit of your the book. Trying to find out Firstly, what did happen and the police are aided- I guess- and by overly complicated by so many people come for coming forward. In so many people willing to talk again, Stephanie and against will boost Limburg so tell us basically without going at all the names, but they did speak to lease apace. I did they did speak to love a fellow stripper at the Strip club. They did speak too will boost in bergs in made body MAC or Para. So what did? Basically a litany of people say a group of people

say about Stephanie Ann about will and this murder. Well, if I remember correctly, they were just basically that these are too crazy. Screwed up people- and one thing I have failed to mention about stephanie- is while all this was going on the yellow, every year at least back then would do a calendar, and she was because girl girl of the calendar, so why? she's being arrested. There are like distributing com, you know calendar of her worthless gorgeous. You know sultry, look so to see her in prison compared to the gorgeous gorgeous southern Baptist. Stripper you. It was a kind the change, but you there are a lot of people who don't believe she did it, for example her parents. They are one hundred percent. You know innocent, but basically.

Will didn't have a lot of friends because he burned a lot of bridges. For example, when he was in high school and family life was so bad. He was taken in by the Round rock Baptist children's home, which is a fabulous wonderful, loving place. I've known about this place since I was like five years old and then getting to go in and get a tour of the home and see how they lived. They really do great work and will go even though he initially went to get there go. There was get out, get out get out, and so anyone who had tried to help him had sort of turned against their. I mean he had turned them against him, so neither one

them had a lot of friends with the exception of Stephanie, desperate Roxy and her parents, and will basically had no wine right and what it came time for four to to get an attorney for himself to defend him. He also was destitute, too, and had to go through just the public defender, whereas Stephanie spirits did arrange for a lawyer, did added have a gentleman named IRA Davis yeah. They immediately went as soon as I got a phone call

that she was arrested. Her dad was saying: don't talk to anybody, don't talk to anybody and should already given a statement, and he called up. You know members from their church and said who do you recommend and they recommended Ayra Davis, and you are probably now, despite Ayra Davis' attempt to minimize the damage, like you say, from the statement that she already made to police as well as wills, Bucine, bergs attorneys as well or attorney these p will still continue to correspond, while they're in prison is not correct. Yeah, that's uh! I remember that Stephanie would talk to me about the love letters that he would send her in seems like I, even copies of the love letters are, I remember going through his psychological medical records. You know from his time at the children's home when he was

through therapy and reading all of that, as well as reading the love letters that he would send her. You know I I think in my opinion, cause you were asking my opinion. I think he truly loved her. Obviously if he was willing to kill for her and that she was just totally using him the entire time to learn to see what it felt like to kill someone right. There was a lot of friends that came forward. That said that she had mentioned to them that she had stated that she wanted to experience the thrill of care, someone that she could kill someone. There was a lot of people that came forward to say that, and in Will's case there were people that came forward to make statements against him as well like this former inmate in uh.

People as well so now, how does this play out in court in terms of just? How are they trying to? How are each one of the lawyers trying to frame this? As he said, she said they try to blame each other. How was the court dynamic exactly and what happened is steadily was getting ready to make a plea. Bargain were and will beat her to the punch, so you know that he as as what happens when most cases when there

a male and a female involved that the female usually gets the harsher sentence? Well, this happened in this case in part because will beat her to the punch and got the better deal because he was going to testify against her, but it also it was as a result of the prosecution, not believing her story of her innocence and not being there. They did really believe that she did want to kill. So that's why they did. They were anxious to make a deal with will because they didn't. They did want to prosecute her fully for those crimes as well yeah I mean, and- and I understand why they- they felt that in fact today I was talking to a man who recently read the book and he the one of the first things he said to me as I think she really did pull the trigger right I'm I'm like TAT, so

I you know, I kind of think that too, and I dont want to think that that is the story doesn't make sense. Why, right now, the thing is, is the term the plea bargain it we're talking about is not so good for will, but it certainly is is not about. Much is obviously not the death penalty, but the thing is what type a plea bargain did he actually get in exchange for his testimony in and providing evidence against. Her will find remember correctly. He got twenty years and she got thirty, and if I remember correctly, neither one of them appeal the centre right and what was interesting is after this all went to trial. I went to to her several times, as you know, as a reporter

and then after the book was turned in. She put me on on her visit. Her less and I went to see her more time is untrue, talk to other true crime writers where it gets. It is just so emotionally draining to go to prison, then and visit with these people, and so I finally kind of quit going and then a long time afterwards out of the blue, I got a letter from her way need to help her with her appeal and I'm like well that was one of the conditions of your yeah,

and so I never answered her letter and never heard from her again right now. The thing is is: did she was you in approval over the tone of your book? Did she ever get to read the book? Would you would you know about her personality concerning this book? What would it you? What would she think, and it did she have any comments about the book or its content or anything I'm guessing. She absolutely loved it, because if you go to Amazon and look at some of the reviews- or maybe it's barnesandnoble dot com, one of the two someone wrote on there I'm reading this book 'cause, it was recommended to me by Stephanie, Martin and Stephanie, was on one of those websites where you you know, data girl in prison or something like that

and so she had, I think, maybe one of her yellow rose cover girl. You know photos on there 'cause. I remember that the picture on the website look nothing like what she was in prison because when I interviewed her, she kept her hand over her mouth and that's because she had gotten in a fight in prison. And had a tooth knocked out right and our mother was just I rate that the present people that this wasn't like you know going to your private dental person, though what you call up the doktor and get an emergent the appointment she was like furious that hey you she's, imprisoning. She can't get devil care immediately, Vienna, this. Ah, what what you did talk about visiting heard numerous times in prison? What is her demeanour in prison when you do have these visits? She's pleasant sociable? She, wants to come across as very good. She, she doesn't seem to realize that how

Criminate ing some so much of what she says is how it makes her look bad. She thinks it makes her look good and I think I'm put it in the book. One of the things I remember is that, what I was interviewing the cops one time and they were had just gone to Quantico for some FBI training and they talked about how, when a person goes a lot that they're making it their stories as they go along exit, and so when I was interviewing with Stephanie, I noticed that she was constantly going and I put that in the

interview a lot and it drove a lot of people crazy. The reason I did that was to show how she was making things up as she went along if go by what the FBI Fbi sure sure it's the way people talk to it it. Certainly if you 'cause I've seen transcript it conversation. You start a sentence. There's a certain certain wave to people normally talk and when they're trying to be deceptive, I know what you're speaking of it. It seems to be more plotting and their establishing things as they go along and in almost all of you can almost hear the wheels turning as are coming up with, as is their sort of establishing a with

and giving themselves enough time to embed, were or create the rest of it. So he deliberation yeah and went away to criminals, or at least with martyrs up I found it. They have their story line and they have to stick with that story line. So what I always do as I let him talk that story line long enough, that they feel I'm totally buying into it, and then I will stop on and back em up or shoot him toward the end of the story or back to the front that I get him out of order and when you do that they almost always say something that they don't intend to. Interesting is, and so your conclusion to is that this woman was just pathological are part me so psychopathic in her desire to experience this, and that is evident.

By, like you, say she loves all the attention she's recommending the book to her friends. That certainly doesn't seem the person that's ashamed or humiliated by what they did in very, very remorseful and wants to put it in the past. In contrast to will who just tried to disappear, you know he, disappear in prison. So that, like let me do my time- and you know what I did was wrong- let me pay for it, whereas she still saying no. No, no, I didn't do that then you know, would send me recipes of what how they make cheesecake or whatever in prison. You know sort of a party to her, and I hate saying that, because I want to be respectful to her parents, who I know that if they heard this conversation tonight they would be so absolutely devastated by what I'm saying-

and I think it's important- that when people realise that when there is a murder, there aren't just the victims of the murder victim of their friends in the families that the killers their families are victims too. Oh certainly, I've done so many cases. You have the Bernardo Homolka case in Canada, where the daughter was killed and yet still the family. In light of all the information it came out, a trial was still in support of their other daughter who, in effect, help murder their their younger daughter, flower. In fact it,

Lots of people have referred to, Stephanie Ann will and the same vein. Is that case? Well, yeah, it's incredible! When you do, I think it's. The scariest thing is obviously person. It has the capacity to kill and kill without any remorse. What's even more shocking and more terrifying is when people can find a soul, mate of sorts to live out their fantasies together, it's even more frightening, I think so. Yeah there's the photograph in the book that Stephanie had made for me when I went and visited her on her visitor less and to me it just sort of sums. Her up she's in prison, she's in a prison white, stand before a sign that says happy Easter and you know there smiling for me that she went

a photo made in prison for her for me, so that I can run it in the book incredible. While it is an incredible book, wages of sin, murder was their turn on. I want to thank you very much for this interview of Susie. It was a great red great and thank you for a great enemy. You, oh thank you very much. You been listening to the programme, a true murder, the more shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about them with my special special Susie Spencer, author of wages of sin. Murder was their turn on. Thank you very much a Susie and have yourself a good evening. You ok good night

good night. Are you hungry afford the usual today or you ready to spice things up with the new Nashville hot risk from firehouse ups, we're kicking up our slow smoked beef brisket with Nashville HOT sees Nick. It's talked with melted, pepper, Jack it. Our Sweden tagging slot serve piping, hot toasted, corn, bread, roll yeah, a corn, bread, roll save time. What are your new Nashville high brisket on fire? How subs out today, firehouse ups enjoy more subs, save more lives, participating locations limit. Emily.

Excuse me captain. This is your wake up call from the new Tracfone wireless works at now. What if you had to fly this plane, while sitting back in the cabin I wouldn't have any control? Well, that's what it's like going with some wireless companies but Tracfone Wireless gives you control, get unlimited talk and text on America's best 4G Lte network, starting at twenty dollars a month, no contract slots, unlimited carryover data with active service, that's cool! But how did you get my cock pit? This is your wake up, call people the new Tracfone Wireless, now you're in control, c terms and conditions at tracfone dot com