« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers

WHEN SATAN WORE A CROSS-Fred Rosen

2012-05-30 | 🔗
  In 1980 in Toledo, Ohio—on one of the holiest days of the church calendar—the body of a nun was discovered in the sacristy of a hospital chapel. Seventy-one-year-old Sister Margaret Ann had been strangled and stabbed, her corpse arranged in a shameful and stomach-churning pose. But the police's most likely suspect was inexplicably released and the investigation was quietly buried. Despite damning evidence, Father Gerald Robinson went free. Twenty-three years later the priest's name resurfaced in connection with a bizarre case of satanic ritual and abuse. It prompted investigators to exhume the remains of the slain nun in search of the proof left behind that would indelibly mark Father Robinson as Sister Margaret Ann's killer: the sign of the Devil.When Satan Wore a Cross is a shocking true story of official cover-ups, madness, murder and lies—and of an unholy human monster who disguised himself in holy garb. WHEN SATAN WORE A CROSS-Fred Rosen
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, this is your host dance asking for the programme to murder the motion in killers in true crime, history, others that have written about them in nineteen. Be in Toledo, oh on one of the
Is your fixed income truly fixed income? Does it provide diversification, income and risk management for your clients at Mfs? We help advisors, deliver these essentials. We call it essential: fixed income find out more at mfs dot com, Slash fixed income, this phase of the church calendar, the body of a nun, was discovered in the sacristy of a hospital chapel: seventy one year old sister, Margaret Ann, had been strangled and stabbed her corpse arranging a shameful and summit turning pose, but the police book, but the police is most likely suspect, was inexplicably released in the investigation, was quietly buried, despite damning evidence for with Gerald Robinson went free. Twenty three years later, the priest name resurfaced in connection with a bizarre case of say, tannic ritual abuse. It prompted investigators to exhume the remains of the slain. None in search of the proof left behind that would
indelibly mark Father, Robinson S. Sister Margaret had killer the sign of the devil when Satan war. Across he's a shocking, true story, official cover, ups, madness, murder and lies, and then of an unholy human monster who disguise themselves in holy garb. The book or featuring the ceiling is when Satan wore a clause by journalists than other Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the programme federal linen. Thank you to read this interview. Well, thank you very much Dan for having me on once again. It is always a pleasure while back you know. What's this is a priority and to put a little blue ribbon facebook about this. This case, this story almost sounds unbelievable and any almost can picture. A movie with this kind of work, a screenplay for a movie. I mean it's fantastic. Now, just tell us
this is a little bit later. This crime happened in the 80s and but you became involved in two thousand and six the telus describe. Why did you decide to write about this particular case and what was it about? This case? had interested you so much well. The reason I actually decided to write about the case was because I had interview Call Dinero and call was one of the survivors of the Son of SAM and I'd interviewed him for another book, and we kept in touch- and he told me about this case- is it was being featured at that time was core tv today, it's true tv and he told me about it and, quite frankly, I didn't believe it Becaus the idea of a priest killing a nun. I mean it, it sounded like science fiction or something,
and so what I did was I you know I did my research and I had written a book called the historical ATLAS of American crime which Chronicle crime in America from one thousand five hundred and eighty seven to the present Anne. I soon realized that this was a first than american criminal history, that there is no in pence in american criminal history, where priest was accused, let alone convicted of killing and on, and that got me interested in it, and shortly after that, I got very friendly with Dave Davidson, who was the first police officer on the scene, right system, Auburn and was killed and basically sacrificed his career and in some ways sacrificed part of his life in order to get the truth out and that's what got me interested in the whole thing right now. Take it back
to April one thousand nine hundred and eighty and the crime itself. Maybe before we talk about the actual crime, maybe you could talk about the victim of the characters in this an primarily Margaret Ann Paul and Gerald Robinson Father Gerald Robinson. Take us back to the parish. Tell us where the is in, and we don't even know what city were here, we're talking about a higher but tell us a little bit more set the stage for where this occurred and and describe the little the congregation that these people were involved with and tell us a little bit about Margaret Ann Paul, an father Gerald Robinson. Well, what happened going back to nineteen this goes back of course to nineteen eighty. It was a cold case that was solved in the millennium. What
what happened was its Toledo, Ohio and too little Ohio is a year is a word about. I can't see was indeed Europe did the Catholic Church, Is very influential and very important to the can pity in that area and the sister Marguerite and Paul was looking at a local hospital with Father. Jerry Robinson are Father Gerald Robinson. And these two individuals had had words about difference is really about the way that the the services should be conducted on a regular basis in the Parrish they in particular, they worked in a local hospital and their words
between these two. We know about that and what happened was the words between the two and shortly after that. Margaret and Paul who'd been enough for many many years. She was born in the in the early part of the twentieth century and she was a dedicated non and she believed in have in orthodoxy within their religion and which is fine and an Robinson apparently did not, and he decided to cut short the service On during the it would be the Easter weekend, actually Ann. And here and so eventually. What what occurs is that in the sacristy, which is right behind the altar, she was found dead and she was found dead in
very strange position with her legs apart and at the time the police did not pick up on the pattern of the stab wounds which, on her chest, which caused her death and what occured was that Dave Davidson. The first police officer seen did his job and question the individuals who had come into the sacristy, the nuns, the doctors etc upon the discovery of the body, and many of them said, take a look at the priest and they meant Gerald Robinson. Who was the priest who was in charge of the hospital chapel and from that point onward? It gets very. Very cool, convoluted Becaus Robinson will eventually be arrested for committing this crime.
And then eventually, as the case becomes a coat case for a variety of reasons that we can discuss- and it was quite perplexing to the police at the time because nobody could put together the fact that a priest could do this and a pawn. My investigation, I discovered that the church. In into widow was complicit with the police department in covering up priestly abuses, specifically at a failure for the previous vow twenty five thirty years and that lead to what would lead, Peter occur, which is the rest of the priest and, of course, his eventual release. In any case not be ok. Now before we get that, let's go back. Let's go back to the crime
Seen as well, because a lot of stuff happens in terms of potential witnesses, there is nobody that actually sees Gerald Robinson, but there is somebody leaving the seen running away. Tell us also with very interesting. Is this some either father he's another priest anyway, his name is sway, sway attack, techie swine techie. Maybe you can, that property. For me, what did he ask Gerald Robinson shortly after the Margaret Ann Paul was discovered, murdered, strangled, stabbed and the file? Well, there's two things is two things to talk about which is yes. There was an individual who was seen walking away from the sacristy shortly after crime and that individual would not be identified
kill the millennium as Gerald Robinson, but at the time, when day Davidson was questioning the witnesses who would come upon the body and swine attacking was there? The first thing he says is: he goes we too Robinson is what you do this and he immediately suspected problems and it would have been either under ordinary circumstances. It would have made Robinson the pines us back. But because of an arrangement that had occurred, informally between the police department and the Bishop
of the diocese. This wasn't even archdiocese because it wasn't big enough. It gets for lack of a better term, extremely political and so Swiatek e actually would say that Robinson. He accused Robinson of this crime and at that point it will sort of goes into a black hole. Basically, Becaus people work, protect thing, individuals who work for the church who had been accused of crimes, and it was an arrangement between the police department and the diocese, and so what occurs is that well. Well, they Davidson and the other detectives on the case of will do their job at the time. Certain things
Happened such that Robinson, even though he is brought in for questioning, is released, and I can describe exactly what, map is as we go further yeah tell us about the questioning, because they they ask obviously Davidson and his partners. They ask him, they think he's the likely suspect. So they ask him questions accordingly and what is his response to the to the news that this woman is this Margaret and fallen on, which work together with him. What is his response he inquired murder he claims he was in the shower. He was upstairs because the people who who wore which will work for the church, the nuns in the hospital- this was a hospital run by the year, the Catholic Church and the Robinson would claim that
that he was in his apartment at the time which is in the hospital, but he doesn't find out about it until somebody like give him a call tell them what's going on, at which point he rushes downstairs, and it was the job of the police to investigate his claim and decide. Whether it was valid claim or not whether he was a viable suspect, and they do find out that about the fact that he He and sister Marguerite and Paul had disagreed on the course of the regular service and they also found, but they had some other disagreements, and at that point you would think that Robinson would become the prime suspect and that the police would be centering in on him, which is what they did. And then what occurs is that Robinson would event
really be brought in for questioning shortly after the crime takes place and he goes into an interview, room and he's there with detectives, and he there talking to him, they give him his rights, and at that point he seems like he is ready to open up and then suddenly the door to the. If you remove, opens up and walks the chief of police and the chief of police Tells Robinson you going home basically well and the chief of police was a roman Catholic and the detectives were very, very.
Beside themselves for lack of many other way of describing it they'd never seen anything like this. I personally never heard of anything like this, where Mon Senior could walk into an interrogation with the chief of police and walk the prime suspect out and at that point Robinson literally disappears into parish until the millennium. They move him around a lot, and now we see that that is a fairly common situation when priest is accused. Other crime, primarily of course pedophilia and he's moved around a lot until later on. It becomes a cold case and then somebody James, a woman, comes forward to claim that she was ritualistically abused by and uh
with individuals, including Gerald Robinson. When we say ritualistically we mean say Tannic Lee and at that point the police in two thousand and five. They really launch a full scale investigation, including Exu Ming, Margaret Ample's body, and they take a much closer look at the pattern of the wounds on her chest. The stab loans which it caused her death and they come to the conclusion- and it's pretty obvious when you look, I think at the at the photos and then I've got those in the book that she was stabbed in the shape of an inverted cross, which is a say, tannic, symbol, right and the police then call in.
An actual exorcist who I who, from the archdiocese of Chicago as an expert and they discussed the situation with him, and he gives them a lot of information about ritualistic abuse and simultaneous. A woman is it comes forward to claim another woman. That Robinson was involved in a satanic cult and that she was also ritualistically abused, and so it becomes very, very. Scary, I don't know any other way of putting it that a priest of the catholic Church could in some way be involved in a say, ten ritual, and at that point they Continue their investigation until eventually Gerald Robinson is charged by that time were about sixteen year.
It's sixteen years later, from the time the crime first took place and, of course it gets a lot of headlines in the United States. I don't know how it was in other venues and other countries, and it goes forward from there now tell us who the primary, I guess characters are in keeping this. We talked about Davison, Davison, the detective, the the guy that really stuck with the story, but there are other people that have come to the surface of an organization called snap so brings about the tell us about this is again this other important character, this woman, it's important to this in in having this. Gerald Robinson. Finally, at some point, even though right years later will be taken to task and end in front of the jewish judiciary, so tell us who this woman is intolerable,
but about her and and how these involve. She, He is a an advocate for in the Bin tools. She this individual, Claudia, was someone who had been abused by a priest and Claudia was part of this group that I've gotten together and it's a national group to do something about priestly abuse, which of course had become front page headlines and still is, and she felt that the police were in Cahoots with the Catholic Church in not charging Gerald Robinson with this murder, and so she Essentia Lee petitioned protested that they should get off their keisters and go after him.
And she's one of the individuals who helps to get him at least brought in to be questioned one more time and at the same time, Becaus of what quality does and again because of Davidson. Who was again the First conference. Seen the police then go back and take a look at what evidence they had originally and only hold they find that when they had searched robinsons quarters back in nineteen eighty, they find that he has a very well thumbed publication from the catholic church about ritualistic abuse and satanism, and that that
time. They didn't release any of that information. And so it's a combination really of a number of individuals who come forward to pressure. The authorities now Claudia, is somebody who's very out front and would be able to get a lot of headlines. On the other hand,. Davidson was literally drummed out of the police department because he kept pressing to investigate rob and in charge him and that's not what his superiors wanted at the time wanted to do, and so, as a result Robinson, I'm sorry Davidson eventually be cause of his continued petitioning. To look into this thing. Not only does he get blackballed from the department, but he's looked at as being a wild card by the state process
Somebody who's not reliable in terms of what he saying, and so what you have is essentially an old fashion cover up and there's nothing unusual about that. Then I mean the only thing that that the unusual here is that in March and in all the instances that we have read about in a no about in terms of priestly abuse, it involves that failure in the Uk- that's not what's happened in this case. We're talking about murder, an ritualistic abuse. Now the woman who comes forward, who I interviewed, who claims that Robinson had. Sexually abused her when she was a teenager, she then files a civil suit which eventually gets the Smith, but she was very, very specific about what had occurred
and in terms of the actual abuse, and she also implicated other members of the catholic Church in Toledo, oh and the reason that I believe that this could go on for so long. This kind of a cold case when you have this kind of strong evidence against the men who appears to be the bad guy, isba cause this particular section of Toledo. I'm sorry of Ohio is very, very the Catholic. It had been settled that way and, in fact, Robinson is a priest who is fluent in polish. So there, a lot of polish Catholics in the parish and Robinson's role within the parish was to conduct, sir, This is in polish, so he was actually an integral part of the structure of the parish and he served
as I said, a very important role here and in addition to Robins the visuals, I've already name, the other people that big that we see that, become involved with the actual individuals who are heading the parish, including the bishop, who has since died the Mon Senior who since died, and these individuals, according to the evidence, participated in in a cover up and it goes even more than that, because it was during my investigate patient that I discovered that there had been a papal edict. That said that every parish was supposed to keep secret files. Every parish in the world and these secret files could be just about anything and that would include personnel records.
Situations like the one we're describing where someone is accused of a crime and then transferred from one church to another within the parish, and so it's a combination of individuals who come together Davidson Claudia the person who accuse is Robinson, priestly abuse a rather accused him of of ritualistic abuse, and it was the kind of of perfect storm in the sense that the authorities at that point could not ignore and so You have to go further with their investigation, which eventually will lead to Robinson being charged with murder. What I thought interesting to fret is, is it Bobby beat you put a lot of references and there are very good
explaining some things and of course you talk about some movies and some of those things are just given a historical background to give it content right, yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit about the. Anthem movies, say tannic Bible and the idea that the human body as an altar and also about the altar cloth itself, sell a salute and the weapon that they at least suppose that they thought that was the murder weapon. It's uh, used to stab Margaret at so tell us a little bit about elevate and this in it, who were the people that were buying into the satanic ritual thing, was Davison? Was he convinced and who did some of this research other than or did you do, the research about the say, tannic Bible and the whole feasibility of the crime scene itself being ritualistic? Well, I did well in the present I did the research, but simultaneously
We, the police department, was doing that as well, and I should explain that again when I say the present I'm talking still going back seven years, but but they had written the satanic Bible and part of this involves symbols and the simple of the inverted cross being a symbol of the devil. Ok and what what occurs here is that when she found there is an all too cloth over her and the wicked be whoever does this crime had put the old the cloth over her and stare
you're in the pattern of the inverted cross. Now. The important point here is to understand that none of the police at the time picked up on this. This doesn't get picked up on until the until relatively the present and so eyes went there. Back an I started, researching satanic rituals catholic rituals to understand what was going on and the police posit that the murder weapon is a letter opener which Robinson had on his desk. And if you take a look at the pictures in the book, you will see that the pattern of the of the stamp owns a margarian polls
asked which again her death were in the shape of an inverted cross. I mean there's no way around that and nobody not Davidson and nobody, except perhaps for the. The person who comes forward to claim that Robinson had had done. Some ritualistic abuse on her. Previously nobody really understands it and therefore there's nothing to really believe than because at that point they don't have the evidence, but in the present What occurs is that when they, when they disinter the body and they examine it, they are able to determine the pattern of the wounds. At that point, they the police and too little do the right thing and they go to the exorcist in the deep shook go. Archdiocese Chicago has an exorcist on staff, who I interviewed
and it was with great interview- was the first thing I said to myself. I said to myself the key: What do you do? How do you get this job? And he explained to me that he got the job because he had actually done. It is his doctoral thesis on exorcism and he to explain to me that he does most of his work on the phone, because nine out of ten cases, if not more, involve schizophrenia. When someone thinks the possessed by the Devil right was. This brings up in our memories of of the exit, the famous shown the exorcist shirt and what so? What happens if they work eric-
closely with with with the monsignor from Chicago who is the exorcist, and they begin to realize the police that this was some sort of say, tannic ritual. Now the real question and my feeling all along was that Robinson had done this and done at this specific way to divert attention from himself and not necessarily be cause. He was some sort of committed Satanist or something there's no evidence. There's no hard evidence to show.
Oh, that Robinson himself was a sadness except for this woman who came forward, who claim that he had committed to say panic ritual on her previously. But the police did the right thing at this point and they went with the evidence and as I can't I came into it after a father and was conducted and by the way for the romish. Since the where's, the collar is still a priest even in jail and as I got it. With that's when I realized that, if you don't have
corroborating evidence that Robinson was Satanist, you therefore have the possibility that he did this deliberately in order to divert attention from himself, and so the police are putting all of this stuff together, including when they do the the young, the second one. Topsy of modern and Paul. There are able to take this letter opener and match up the wounds themselves in because he stabbed her so hard and went to the and they were able to match up that. They took the Tipp of the letter opener and they were able to put it into the bone that had been damaged when he committed this crime and it was an exact match at the same,
they took the letter opener and they discovered what they think was blood on your knees, part of it the handle, but they were able to make a positive idea. So therefore, that the fact that the letter opener is the murder weapon with something that was positive. On the basis of circumstantial evidence and the jury believe that, in addition to the weight of the other evidence and there's one more thing, I feel like a lumber one more thing, which is that in the press
as the conductor investigation what day find, and this is the thing that since it certainly for me- and certainly, I believe, with the conviction of Father Robinson- was that back and eighty they somebody was seen leaving the pair of leaving the leaving the chapel shortly after the murder was committed, but there was no identification of that individual, except in the present they track down a fellow who was an intern at the time or resonant. I don't recall- and this doctor positively id Gerrell Robinson and said he was the dude that I saw skulking around and leaving the chapel, as I was going into it to treat her now, she was already dead, but they didn't know that. Of course, you know he didn't know that, of course, at the time you know he's going in the chat
because she gets call, you know, there's somebody down and needs help etc, and this individual. This doctor sees Robinson and Ids him in the present, as as coming from that direction, which completely contradicts what Robinson it said Robin claiming that he was always in his apartment at the time and the only time that he's back in the sacristy is when he's notified. What occurs that's when he comes down and that's when swipe pecking accuses him of being the bad guy, and I might add that they Davidson, even though he's not a detective he's a good decab and so Davidson continues to interview witnesses in the hospital. Despite the fact he's not supposed to do this he's supposed to leave it to the detectives and all of the individuals he talks too implicate
Robinson and say Robinson, had problems with system Margaret Ann Pool, so there was never any other suspect in this case, except for Father Gerald Robinson. You know it's interesting too, and we haven't spoken about it, but you put it at the very beginning of your book and you describe it quite quite well in and graphically chief Pooh Pooh presided over the funeral mass for Margaret at Paul, ironically Gerald Robinson, the killer The killer in an act it during that during that mass, the whole mass, of course, one of the things that I had to do when I was reading. When I was reached, I took a four month when I was working on the book because I'm I'm I'm jewish I'm from Brooklyn. So I didn't. I was in a way I didn't even know what
SAT Christie was so I had a learning curve. So I read so I really a good friend of mine at the time work for rum idiots guys and he sent me the idiots Guide, the Catholicism and at the bower. This was very good work and an eye- and I read up on Catholicism and of course I read up on protestantism. Do you know to understand the differences and under you know, all that stuff and and it was It was quite a quite a learning experience because the fact that he kills her in the sacristy on Holy Saturday with the host present, I mean I can't give anything more and in the way he does it. I can't think of anything more sacrilegious yeah and that, but you
anyways- you have to take out your emotions and look at this as a murder case. Once. You look at his a murder case begins to come together, but when you let your emotions carry you away, especially when you religious in the there's, nothing I'm saying here up of detriment to Catholics. It's not it's not like that. At all I mean the the average individual in the parish didn't know anything about this yeah, but the upper echelon did. They knew they know a lot about it and they kept secret records on this, and some those the police were able to eventually confiscate in the present of through a subpoena. Then answer the question yeah. Yes, yes, it is about about her funeral. Was that Jerry Robinson presides over it and suddenly, in the middle of the funeral, the doors blow open, a big
wind blows, open the doors and only and it was, and what I read it. It was quite dramatic. It was like you know, God was present, saying something whatever and I and I do believe that by the way, I think that you know the Lord does work in strange ways, but again the the the cost of the fact that and I'm going to use a term. The catholic church was mobbed up with the Toledo Police Department at that time. We know that this was something that was later exposed by the Toledo Blade, which is still find newspaper in the city, even though it's been beleaguered besieged by cutbacks just like every newspaper and dumb, but again all of these
clothes and there really clues are left unanswered and on undiscovered because of the fact. That's the monsignor walks, Robinson right out of the the interrogation and and literally into the millennium, in fact, by the time Robinson, is charged not even ensure of any parish. He doesn't have any problems of any church. He doesn't have any real official duties, he's just he's not even listed on the official roster of a church. Employees within the parish he's just getting whatever you know, whatever his his salary, is, or you know to just hang around, basically and so, and that that continues until two thousand and six or two thousand and five. I guess when they finally charge him now. How does the? What is the churches respond? You talked about him still wearing his habit
was a church. Ok with that, and we talked about cancer in polish in an indian dear to the polish speaking community, so tell us trial just what camp or who in what camp, and indeed he have your orders and and who were those reports. Predominantly Father Robinson supporters with polish Catholics within the parish didn't want to believe that one of their own could have committed this crime. And, of course he was supported by the by the archbishop by the bay ship an end, the monsignor in the parish and Andy supported him, and those were his supporters in that is- is very strong in this particular section of the United States, because polish
folks had settled that area going back into the eighteenth fifties, and so they carried a lot of political clout. And so during the trial, these are the individuals who refused to believe that Robinson could have committed this crime and, to this day, still believe that Robin didn't commit the crime, and I might add that Robinson claims he didn't commit. The crime now would the ideal, going to be defended. Now who pays for this? Because basically does the church pay for his his lawyers attorneys? How does it happen that he gets the particular attorney that he does have, and you talked about the polish community is that the people that raise the money for his bail? Yes
and but at the same time as I recall, the one of his attorneys, the sides simply volunteer his services, be cool and quite rightly, be cause. The guy needed a good attorney and you know when it comes to attorneys in these kinds of situations, I don't think it's really particularly relevant. I mean you know on it. Leave. If I remember, I didn't even look into whether the the lawyers them said that defend floors were Catholics, because I didn't particularly think it was relevant because under a system of justice area, visual, just as it is in Canada and England and Australia and every place else. The people listening to us. You You have the right to an attorney to defend you to the best of his or her ability, and so a cup attorneys had come forward to offer their services to help him out because he was an underdog and so the commission,
raises some money. I think the parish put in some money. Is it really it wasn't? It wasn't an issue, let's put it that way down. It really wasn't an issue and when you think about it, it can't be an issue because once you have a cover up, the cover up has to continue, because if the cover up does continue, then people have spot taken responsibility and what they thought taken responsibility, and supposing the whistle supposing for the sake of discussion, Robinson had had had opened up the somebody and said it lets, say robbers and opened up the monsignor said I'd. I done it well. If you then turn around and try to free this individual, you would be, you could be indicted for being an accessory to murder. So it once you have the cover up going.
It has to continue all the way through because otherwise people can get charged. So the in what occurs during the trial is. The church is supportive of many of the. I couldn't tell you the exact numbers, but but there was certainly an appreciable portion of the Toledo Catholic Community and protect the polish gap, a community that supported him because people, but in quite rightly they don't want to believe a priest kills a nun. Excuse me: you know I mean it's. You know when I grew up. I was taught that, regardless of who the per when was they were person of the cloth? You give them that spect, I was always taught you notice, and here I am a jewish boy in Brooklyn
and so you know I always you know so. You grow up believing that these individuals are above conventional law. Not above God's law. But above conventional law and their paragons. Just like doctors, for instance, its own. It's only in the last, maybe ten or twelve, you know twenty years I once wrote a book called doctors from Hell. It was my first true crime book. You don't want to believe that people that are so respected
people that have such standing within the community could knowingly commit murder. That's, like you know a it. It is it's a disconnect, because once you is it once you believe that, then it calls into question. You write. Your other believes, because you want to believe that these people are paragons of virtue. You want to believe that they follow. Jesus is path. You wanna believers stuff, because if you, if it turns out the other way around what it means is you got caught by somebody
and nobody, nobody wants to know that they will conned by any body, let alone by a priest and let alone that he called his way into murder. Now, I'm at while you say that he was there we ve already spoken about it. Did he was eventually convicted of the murder by a jury? Yes and evil and then he was sentenced yet some prisoners. We said any less likely said it needs a fairly old man too. So ineffective, basically, would seem like you could spend the rest of his life in prison. Now, let's get to these other charges and in its interesting. You're a year, you a little bit cynical in
in the end of the book when we're talking when you're talking about those charges and where they came from, tell us explain to the audience why there was a civil case rather than a criminal case, and people are familiar with your J Simpson case, but tell us what happened in terms of why the civil case, but So do you believe the prosecutor would have went ahead with criminal charges with this satanic ritual thing? If there wasn't these conditions that forced it to civil court, because there is a difference, people I think will know that. There's a difference between the burden of proof in terms of civil case is in criminal court based on the Oj Simpson case. So explain exactly what happened in this particular case. Well, yeah and using Simpson is a good,
good example, and the Simpson case- because I am I know- for a golden and in the sense in case you have you have a crime murder, which is eventually tried and, of course, Simpson has found not guilty but you have again and actual crime that's occurring, and it isn't it in a situation where it becomes a cold case. So in that case, what what occurs is that Fred Goldman goes and in the Goldman family goes after Simpson for a civil verdict and in civil court, as you point out, you don't have, the burden of proof is less back,
You don't necessarily even have a jury of 12v, a jury of seven, for example, in the Robinson case, what you have is- and it is Robinson being convicted of
killing Margaret. I am Paul and they downplay if there is evidence, of course, but they downplay the satanic stuff, because if once they go into that, you gotta go it's a lot of stuff for jury to take in shirt, so they will primarily concerned with simply proving Robinson done it as opposed to how Robinson done it. That's why I'm an end it? What what occurs is then an individual who says sees this has a recollection, repress memory of having been a young person who had been involved with with somebody who took her to a it, was about
Psmith someplace, in fact, that the legal police Department would eventually search the entire area. Trying to find evidence of, say, panic, abuse and in some of these US underground locations and they couldn't come up with anything, and so at that point, paint, the individual involved simply comes forward and says I'm going the Sioux General Robinson in civil court doing this to me, and she also claimed that there were other people who were present at the time, but the one ideas she has is of Robinson. Now again the problem is is corroboration, and if this was a criminal case,
it would have been thrown out immediately because there was no corroboration was essentially her word against his right and eventually the case thus get thrown out. The case does get thrown out Becaus. There is no collaboration and some people looked at hers of goal, bigger who's, just trying to make money off this whole thing and again the problem is when you don't have core operation. Where do you go with it?. You know what what do you go with it? I mean an the answer here. Is that the the judge Threw it out before it could even go to trial now, I might add something else which is I saw. I saw something in Toledo when I went to investigate the case. There was another priest I'm sorry, you wasn't a priest, he was a layman who had been a teacher within the
Irish and they had already found this guy guilty of of pedophilia and he had a quart date and I was in the courtroom and It was just me and another reporter and in this particular individual and the lawyers, and suddenly the judge goes. Let's do this and chambers and I've an end. You're not supposed to have a hearing and chambers. That is that the violation of of the United States constitution. We have public trials and I saw this dude go into the into chambers with the judge and they made some sort of a deal to let this go and the guy snuck out the back way, and I would ask as the second item again, it was like. I thought I was in the past
right, so I couldn't believe I was in the United States of America an I asked people about it. I asked to reporters and they said. Oh, this is Toledo and I go. What kind of answer is that What do you mean? It's Toledo, you know when the United States of America, that's why I always say that you know people will always talk about things? things that happen in the southern states, you know what I mean, and the s gets bad reputation for repressing this. That and the other thing will open your eyes. This stuff goes on all over the place and in this particular case you had a criminal proceeding that goes into chambers which it shouldn't shouldn't have had should have happened, and I have to believe that the only reason that occured is because the church was involved- and this is the present- this is the present, and I just you know I just
what did this? And you know one of the problem is that when you are journalists d, you know you're, not my job is not. You know. Anderson Cooper can get on CNN all that as much as he wants an advocate, but that's not what you analyse does what a journalist does investigate for the best obtainable version of the troop and present that to you reader at or your viewer and the b, the reporters in Toledo literally stymied by the court system in this particular case, let alone, of course, the parish which did want to say anything about it and, of course the parish had little or nothing to say. Regarding robinsons gaze. Now again, that's pretty you know it goes back to what we discussed before, which is what are they supposed to say? We covered it up
you know what are they supposed to say? I think that if this, if the individuals who did cover it up within the church, there were not within the church, they would have been charged, they would be charged with covering up a murder forgot sakes, which is probably a pretty good metaphor right and it it was a very peculiar situation and I might have one other thing, which is I've investigated, murder cases throughout the United States. I've I'm I'm in one instance in a book or lobster boy. I actually solved the case which led to the conviction, the killer, who frightened me, I was never is worried for my own safety. As I was in Toledo, I and I'm not paranoid, really not paranoid. I can't be on the New York Mets fan,
and I really was concerned that people were paying too much attention to what I was doing and I was extremely careful about where I went now granted. Toledo much of Toledo is a high crime area, but that doesn't that doesn't phase me because I you know, that's again what reporters do we go wherever we have to go to to report on the story in Toledo, I had the feeling that people will watching me and I could be clear on who it might have been, whether it was the police or intervene up individuals from the parish or whatever, but I I was very, very, very care full about where I went and what I did Becaus. I didn't I, of course, that you know I'm there myself, I'm the lone ranger you know in Tonto is, you know, is off getting help, so I have to be very, very careful. I felt.
About what I was doing and the individuals I was talking to an end even Davidson, I confronted the prosecutor, the prosecutor, who got the conviction, got robinsons conviction and this guy, I said to him. I said once you called Dave. Davidson is a witness. He was the first cop in the scene. He did. He did all of the basic invest of investigative work. He said well easily It is not a reliable witness, I said he's not a reliable witness. He said now and I have my notebook and I from Adam I note book. I unfolded a piece of paper and I should there's Davidson at the top you list how come you got him at the top of you with this list. Of course the guy could Nancy so even at the time that their prosecuting trying to cover up the fact that they didn't do their job initially. And they in whichever way you come out on it, whether you think robinsons guilty or not,
there's no way in the world. You can say that the police did their job initially Becaus. Well, they were stymied. You know they were stopped and nobody came forward for fifteen years to get justice for this individual who was was, by all accounts ass, a very loving good person devoted to cries and certainly didn't it. You know what occurred to her and I might add that didn't the all the nuns in the hospital they're, all nurses, there will it is in one of them. One of one of the orders is as nurses, so this would be another so these people had other duties. Obviously, in addition to being to their to their duties, to the to the church, and so it was light. It was quite an eye opener. You know it was quite an oil
winner and, as you point out in the book I am I am, I am an adjunct, associate professor of film at the New York Institute of Technology. So when film is relevant in something as I felt it was here, or I I pointed out, and the fact is that many of us have our conception of what a priest is form by what we see in the media and for many many many years that be the ideal of the priest being Crosbie in a film by we'll make carry cool going. My way and people fought, including me. This is what a priest is. You know granted. I don't expect them to be singing the high notes like being, but you know you don't expect that a priest expect I mean it doesn't even enter your consciousness that something like this could happen. Well, let me ask you this question, because I don't think I got it from the book itself and I think that the audience is listening to
would ask this question in your research. In your estimation, based on Davison, based on the witnesses that did come forward to talk about, say, tannic, tool and maybe could describe some of the allegations that this woman made but, more importantly, without the say, tannic allegation, rituals ritualistic allegations against and it included Gerald Robinson he would not have been indicted for murder. They would have been not the case where do not come back, so I asked combined with the idea that the holiest day of the year in the sacristy itself and the file meant the upside down cross the altar and club. The CE mark on the forehead
the filing humiliation is. Do you believe that there was a satanic group operating in Toledo in the priesthood abusing people? Won't, let me just say one thing that you you you you you you point out. Also the fact that she had been. There was a smudge of blood in the middle of a fart head and again. That is a perversion of catholic ritual and do I believe that it was satanic abuse within the parish. I'm going to go with no No, I don't believe that quite frankly and the reason I do I do it well, primarily because the police. Did do their job and trying to find when this, when this other in
visual came forward in the present and claimed that she had been the kind of abuse she's talking about is the kind of thing where they would draw. They would rape her they would. They would draw satanic symbols on her body. The problem is no corroborating evidence and usually in these kinds of situations, just like in situations where you have pedophilia. It's more than one individual one individual comes forward, says, says something, and then other individuals who have either been repressing the memories or through a shame to come forward, do come forward that doesn't really occur here, and so I go on that. I go on more on the basis of of the evidence. I also feel that Robinson, we Robinson.
Did not appear to me anyway to be that heavily to be to be involved within a a cult, and there is again in the in the in the years afterwards and the police investigate him, and I did as well about what occurred afterwards, because now talking about fifteen years, then there is no evidence of Robinson or any other individual involved with the parish committing satanic abuse. So my feeling is that, based upon the evidence, Robinson had read about it and tried to throw the attention off
himself in the way that he kills or end again. Remember it's a very specific, ritualistic way of killing. Somebody now look at the first want to say I could be wrong. You know and to me it's more relevant that the evidence points to him. Once you got you know, and now I might add, a mighty had now again it circumstantial you don't have it you know Robinson has always claimed he didn't do it to this day and when Paul is an interviewed him for show. I was part of on the case with Paula Zahn Robinson again, insist that he had nothing to do with this, and but he's not convincing to me, because the weight of the evidence is that he definitely
was the bad guy, that's the weight of the evidence, and so I feel that what you have to do. If you are prosecutor, is you go with the weight of that evidence and is far and again that's why they downplayed thee, satanic stuff, a trial because they didn't have x x for the way that the crime occurs. There is no other corroborating evidence, and so you know they day and I think it was probably a pretty pretty smart move on their paw. Now, I might add one other thing, which is that I can tell you that there was an individual who Who- and I haven't spoken about this publicly, who was involved in the case who actually said to me? I have evidence that nobody else has and if you give
give me half of what you're going to make on this book. Like I'm making a lot of money I'll give you the evidence, and- and I was like sorry- I you know- I don't do that sort of thing you know. So. Is it possible that Robinson was a satanist absolutely, but do we have any evidence? Nada, nothing! We don't have any Greenwood that if you would have paid, if you would have paid this individual, they would have given you what they thought you wanted in terms of information. Is that what you believe by paying them? Well, that's what that's what he I am being very cagey in this because I dont want to you know I'm I'm I'm I'm subject. Obviously the libel and slander laws
so I can't really reveal who this individual was, but I think that do I think that there was anything additional. Quite frankly now I think the individual involved was just trying to get up get a fast payday. I will also say that this is the first time that's ever curtain occured occurred with somebody came to me and said I have evidence blah blah blah. If you pay me, I've had people say pay me for an interview, but I've never had anybody say well. I've got evidence that wasn't shown there and blah blah blah. You know, and this particular individual, was, I thought, a pretty. He was a prick good source in terms of where he stood within the hierarchy, but at the same time
journalists don't pay, don't pay for information, because, obviously it's painted once you do that. So I mean that's sort of a side light to it. You know more than anything else. What's interesting to me again is that is that Father Robinson is is, is still a priest. I had been under the impression that he had been defraud, but I I was subsequently told otherwise by Paula Zahn's producer, who was present when they interviewed Robinson in prison in Ohio. Well, he's probably want to probably gone to confession, so it's all good now. I would think that if he went to confect well see that was one of the things that he first claimed when Robinson was first arrested.
Get back in eighty. He claimed that an individual had committed this crime and come to him and confessed to it and sort of like this old movie with the uh, I think, was Montgomery, Clift and Alfred Hitchcock yeah, I might have been Hitchcock here. You know it's got in and it will be called eyewitness yet anything He said was like almost the dialogue from the movie. His wife Robinson said: yes, exactly yes and end, and what again Robinson. With a eunuch areas and in the in the interview, Rome, I guess in those days we call the interrogation room
and he's claiming that somebody else did this and told him this and whatever, but he couldn't produce any. He couldn't produce any specifics of mens and the detectives continued to question him. He started opening up a little bit. More and that's the point where the month senior in the chief of police come in and walk him out into the millennium did need the undergo a light effect, your test and powerful. He may I be I'd. I'd have to go back and read it, but you see the thing is I dont place any credence and lie detector and I'll tell you words. First, first and foremost lie detectors
our only useful as an investigative tool it did. It can only sort of lead the cops in a certain direction and they're not admissible in a court of law, and the reason is one of the things that lie detect. Why detectors basically task things like skin temperature blood pressure pulse things of that nature, while if you have high blood pressure chance in and you're being questioned by the police checks, are you going to fail? If that doesn't mean you a bad guy, I've seen look I Britain about bad guys. I wrote about a serial killer in a book called body dump where he was questioned by the police and he passed the lie detector test, and then you know a year later. They arrested for killing a prostitutes and he confesses and they have all the corroborating ethnic. So the go on to me
again lie detectors that are not very good I don't realize here one way or the other whether Jerry Robinson passes it or not, because people have to remember that if a person is a is a cycle path or so so bill passes. It's now called the individual doesn't feel guilt. If you don't feel guilt, then you're not going to register on the machine. So any you know there are many individuals that we pass every day in the street, whether we're in Winnipeg Sydney, London, New York, wherever it might be, or you know or or Toledo who are psychopaths. I mean, I always say the same thing. Jesus, you ever wonder why your boss is such a creep. Why you get you all those problems and doesn't feel anything about it he's a psychopath, but that doesn't mean he's going out and killing somebody. You know for every for every cycle
at that goes out and kill, asked I'll. Show you million that donk. What Robinson was different Robinson with somebody who a jury? We felt committed this crime as I do well. We well people been list. Two went Saint Maur across our last time I spoke to you. We were talking about a particular case, your book trails of death, and I had a name Gary Helen Keller, or give us the update on that case, because it's an interesting stuff- that's happened just not so long ago. Tell us in that case short book, it's trails of death and uh available at Amazon or Barnes and noble, and in this particular case it is a series killing named John Gerald Robinson Meda. I gotta get my killer. Streak carry Hilda and I got to know you help me
quite well through many of the people who knew him as a child and he was eventually convicted of killing, killing and beheading. A woman in Florida also look of her hands to to prohibit identification. He also be headed a woman in, and they're in, and this was all done, postmortem in in Georgia, but and so those are the two crimes he was convicted but there were two other murders of the of the Bryants Green and John in the Carolina which were committed in the murder of the murders were committed in the fall of two thousand and seven, and that case those kids. Those cases did not come to trial until this past March and they were actually schedule for trial and what occurred was that the federal government? This
did they were going to prosecute for death, which is sort of a difficult thing to do when he already has death in Florida right and- and he has like in georgia- and I remember- and I couldn't I remember thinking like you know like why are they wasting my money on this? You know why don't they make a deal and that's exactly what happened so in March, the federal government made a deal in the region with the federal government is because of helping preferred killing people in a national forest subtitle. The book is the National Forest serial killer, and so they made a deal with Hilton that he would confess to these two murders in return for getting life in prison which they gave him, and in fact nobody even knows at this point which prison system he's in because now you you've got the feds involved. You got Georgia and you got Florida and he's he's under, of course, he's under
a death sentence in Florida and he will be, he will eventually go to the electric chair there. He six thousand six hundred and sixty six. I think- and so it usually takes about ten or eleven years to wind its way through the system and eventually, I believe he will be executed, because he very good health. He was, he was a runner and but the family having made a decision in this case- and I think, was the right one to make a deal and not go for death rate. While death is hard to get in and with the appeal process, I mean this is gonna, be the format, the victims and the victims, families for this or the victims, families for another- how many years because it takes them, adhere to the wine through the given these entitled those appeals. But it's my lungs gonna, take ideal and deal with him right will not only that the federal government doesn't execute. There are very few individuals being executed in the last five years by the feds, and
even before that and those were talking in order for the feds to execute you. It's going to be particularly highness, like Timothy Mcveigh. Right back the otherwise they just don't do it it's a waste of public money to go forward. It would only be a political situation. Somebody try us prosecuted trying to score points, and so I think they made the right decision in that case, to make the deal with Hilton, yeah 'cause we are talking about do our differences like in Canada. We have no actual life sentence. There is no such device and own up consecutive sentence ng. So am I the porter still Robert taken as forty nine murders. He still has a parole date, so it is my hope- and I say, yeah really. Yet, if the pigs- the PIC farmer well, we'll have a pool hearing in you don't
twenty years or whatever it is these. The killer was involved with, will have a parole hearing as well, but picked forty nine was partly thirty, three only thirty three convictions, but he there is no consecutive sentencing device ahem this he will have their poor hearing on the one murder so well, since you brought it up is as far as I can recall. I believe that The United States is the only country in the northern hemisphere that still has the death penalty on the books. And we have it now in it was thirty. Eight states and I think it's down to thirty seven because Connecticut recently outlawed it and Illinois out there. Well, yes, yes, well, Illinois', yes, absolutely because of Governor George Ryan and it's yes, absolutely!
The one thing you know the people, people always put their emotions first, as I do, and that, and- and you know when you, when you have a situation where you have a particularly highness Killy, you know the emotion say: let's just execute the guy, but the fact of the matter is for many of these individuals it's worse for them. They just warehouse them for the rest of our lives and in itself, rather than ending their suffering by executing them flaws. It costs a heck of a lot more money to execute because of the appeals process than it does to wear out. So I you know again. If it comes down to what do you want? You know what kind of system do you want? How much money you are you willing to spend on revenge? That's what really comes down to how much my an end, if you don't people, say to me what if it was your child, how would you feel my answer is always the same, that it would never
go to trial. I'd kill the individual first and take the responsibility you know, which is what Michael Dukakis shooting Nineteen. Eighty eight, when they ask him a question, but that's not the story, nor is it it's just interesting that not all states have that, necessarily that, voice, and I I get news stories where overcrowding, budget concerns or letting criminals out and criminals and killers and heinous criminals have been let out of prison early in certain state. It seems ridiculous to be in a rush to put them in prison and then somehow or other not afford to be able to keep him there, and I think this aids for realising the appeal process just bankrupt the state itself, and I should like to know what they are really. I think you're right, especially now with, would you know everybody suffering? I mean you know this, despite the fact that that the economic recovery is is is is under way.
Slow it slow and we don't even have you know. I just had a discussion tonight with somebody about health insurance, which is not something that you guys. You guys would ever have because I'll get national health insurance, I know it the jewels who were you know having to drop it because they can't afford it, and so you have to take on for me it it's all the same. It all comes out of the same dollar. You know gotta figure out. What are you priorities? Are you know why are you priorities? I'd rather see the ten million dollars that they would spend to execute somebody put into health insurance for individuals personally Cyprus. What you do I covered a case. So there was a boy come oh Jesus
Sheila Johnson anyway, and blood highway and the victims of this psychopathic killer here. Basically, they paid for their own medical bills, and it was substantial. And also the there was long long term health effects or detriment to these these people. Now I said, oh, no, wonder they they are. So we are adamant about these people spent and the rest of their life in prison or worse because they add insult injury by being a victim and being re victimized by having to pay for their own health costs attributed to the cycle. So they were talking about an issue pictures of case. The county sort of some people went out of their way to get these victims as much compensation as possible, but I can really see why American wanna hang on high when the victim is
already. Has this all the other things that have happened to them, but the absolute insult to injury that drove home for me was that they gotta pay for their own health. Here, it's longstanding. So it's incredible, absolutely absolutely incredible difference. Now I want to just going to have to wrap up, but I also wanted to mention I found incredible: is that you're also the author of there, but for the grace of God and tell us what news you have regarding this book and just tell us a little bit about the book and what is happening in regards to the film adaptation of that sure there, but for the grace of God, the book that I did right after this one where I travel, I posed the question and the question was to end visuals. Who would survive the worst serial killers of the 20th century
and I asked them if God had anything to do with their survival and I travel throughout the United States, interviewing them and what happened was the answers were surprising in well. Maybe in some ways rising, but that nearly all of them felt that God to hand in their survival right and what happened? What happened was the the book's and bought by actually buy up. Echo pies and Mark Powell and they're producing it as a movie and script is already been written and there in the process of getting a direct, are together and getting the financing and all that stuff, and in the film mark who is a former police officer in LOS Angeles, he basically takes my trip interviewing these individuals and he's doing this because he's got some stuff in his background
that he wants to put to rest and in order to do that, he needs he needs to. He needs to talk to these individuals and the the working title on it is surviving evil that could change again. You know and I'm a sort of associate producer, which means I get to carry the coffee and stuff like that and you know and the, but are you be, did something salting nor to write? Won't you you be consulting on this very well. The truth of the matter is yeah, but when, when, when the display, The fact that I have, I have an academic movie background and I've worked in the business when you're the author of the book, basically rat of its failure to you, no doubt that Vienna without the they'll ask me questions stuff like that, but in terms of actually being on the set every day or something. That's
that's probably not going to happen because they don't want to pay for it. You know they got their script. They got their star and stuff like that. So you know, but then they're putting it together and hopefully they're going to make it pretty soon yeah it. I mean if they're, if they're reputable people will put together something that you'll be. Of course, it won't be note for note for the book, it's bay, he's gone. So we know what Hollywood does still congratulations it's looking forward to, it would be very, very it's an interesting stories of the long looking forward to the film adaptation. So I might a couple years, but well this case I think it might. Actually, if it happens, is going to happen. Blah quicker and, as you know, most times want to book his option to make a film it doesn't. It doesn't happen, but in this particular case They've already done the script and I actually got to read it and they have
my opinion, and it was the strangest thing in the world because I'm reading their scenes in the book we are one of the characters read scenes in the movie where one of the characters is reading out of my book, they're not going. This is weird man. This is very, very strange in their they're, putting it together in the planning on shooting up. They can get it all together and the Louisiana, because there's certain tax breaks there and part of the book takes place and such there, and so hopefully you know it's. My is my my who says your mouth to God's ears yeah. Well, what is your latest project that you're going to be working on in the future and when you have any kind of idea when that might be released? Yes, I'm working on a I'm working on a novel and I'm working on a novel. It's going to be my first. It's
working title is the assassin's bullet Alexander, Graham Bell's race, to save Press Garfield in its a fictional account of an actual event when in a Garfield shot he didn't die. He wasn't assassinated and I had done a lot of research and discuss who the real killer was an. I decided that I was going to do a book that it and eventually a publisher turn a publishing, decided that the they like the idea and we decided to turn it into a novel and it'll be out some time next year and in that book, I'm going to name the real killer, even its fiction, I will be naming the real killer of President Garfield interesting. Again, congratulations will have to have you back on talking about black is it has so much tie to true crime and his colleagues. You got here with this.
It's just one thousand, eight hundred and eighty one. You know you know killers. The killers whenever you find him makes no difference with century. It is castle has been going on for centuries, as you think. Well it accurately as well going back to the Bible. You know we go back to enable Abel, I mean you know. If it was today, you know, came would be, would be indicted for at least second degree murder, and I don't think, there's anything blasphemous to say about that I think that's just the way it is and you one of. Things that I found in american history certainly is that things tend to be repeated times ten to repeated, and I try to deal with what the motivations are, because that to me is is really it's not so much who done it as it is wide uh and because, unless you want me, you know why we can't stop it. You know,
and if we know why, then we can do something about it. Exactly that's what I put in my book. I said this is not a whodunit whodunit, it's. Why had he done it? You know so has worked like every other, most of them. Well, we'll talk about it, Fred, 'cause! I would love you to read it and let me know what you think, because I think we have some similarities in. We talk about lobster boy which is famous true crime book. It really is a famous true crime book, and it is unusual for a journalist to be involved in the prosecution of any subject for a book or any criminal. So that is very unusual and that's, I think, that's what we have in common. I think might find it interesting to us and also say that I just got the right back to the book and I'm looking for a publisher of anybody. Listening ban, I always requires open my lad. I won't turn the item. I publisher anyway, by the way
that book was also option for a film by a fella named SAM Worthington, who was an avatar right in, and SAM has production company and, if it, if they do make it SAM, gets the choice because he's the boss. Of what roles to play since there's only one in the book that he could play campy lobster boy, the only guy These me I'll I'll make a lotta jokes about you know I make a make a lotta jokes about it about how this israeli and play the jewish boy from Brooklyn. I thought you'd, be it he's gonna have to do a lot of voice lessons for that one. You, don't have a good rate, pull that off. Yes a good guy at you know. You know you never know what what what can happen in this business, but very kind of you to say those those things and It is an unusual situation for journalists to get as involved as I did, and I like to say that that was more
with the beginning of my true crime career and I didn't know any better. I just I just thought that the idea is to serve the truth and I still bought yeah. I know that's that's exactly where I was to decide. I ever do you like the people who care about the truth, all you know I don't know her, will think again about the true. That's about it. Yeah the reader cares about it. Then you know you. This is why get so much too. You know trip not as much today as we did years ago, but you get so much tremendous reporting when, when report is, do get involved in some and they don't put themselves above the law, and I I just got involved in that case because I was very close to the to the family and the family lied to me and eventually I was able to come up with the evidence that led to the conviction of the killer and, as I said, I got threats and stuff like that, but
you know after a while, you just sort of throw it off. You know not that I'm brave or anything like that, but you just say to yourself: look if somebody you know somebody shows up. I've got an axe by the door. You know I mean I, you know, I'm not Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter, but you know I still got the app yeah. He had anything you do the you know. The thing is, is it the truth is important, and so you do what you have to do to do that were at least we're. Not we're, not reporters risking our lives in a war zone. I mean that's, that's something I wouldn't sign up for so I think if we get feathers, ruffled or threatened or peopled analysis, occasionally this is true crime, authors kind of get that all you're an exploitive? This or that yeah, I think I think I think you probably have gotten your
the occasion than your ear, Aurora yeah, you support from your readers, because, basically that's that's really what we're doing this for is for the readers for the audience that people that appreciate this kind of stuff, the people that are very, very interest in these cases and some people even read true crime, I've met them and they said people think I'm weird, but I go. I don't think you're weird at all. I think it's history, I think its current events and I think its true crime is a lot of things, but it really is the one of the best forms of non addictions because really you're not trying to is not fluff. It's not entertainment. You tried to elicit a serious response because lots of times these cases are very important. People need you know them, and also some of these cases, or landmark cases and effects of love in our communities for ever and ever so very well said, and just take it
go what's happening in Florida right now, with the prosecution of Joy Zimmermann and the trade Mart in case I mean look at that, I mean the endeavour to create a true crime, I mean. The fact of the matter is, is that is that crime is, is something that we've had forever we're going to continue to have it and it sells newspapers in itself. Tv shows yeah yeah and it's it's it's important to the Kennedy someone in this city that I'm in we are the reigning murder capital year after year after year, and some people, one of the afghan people, don't want to know about it. We certainly don't have the murder rate that American Citys have. We maybe have a fifth or a tenth of some of the major cities, but it's not like it's decreasing and its end and some other crimes. As you know, some people might say well, there's not that much. There isn't any more murder. Well, there are some bizarre murders when you know the very first program
Why did a woman is carving out a baby out of edible womb? You know you as well. There's been five or six of those cases in the last series, when you're going really wow, you know so there's. What information so I gotta say, though, then that that you know the de. The fact of the matter is that I mean I saw bowling for column. I you know it's. It's were much more violent culture, because as much more embedded here, yeah and and and and the availability of hand guns is, is something that you know what are our legislators have been working on forever. You know so it's it's, obviously it at a different culture, but what it all comes down to his murders, murder. You know, and you got to do something about it and you gotta get the bad guy and prosecute. And then we get to write about it yeah? Well, the thing is what I'm campaigning for in this. Is that somehow or other? We believe whether it's a mental?
What would Madame a mental court statute and where the person is not criminally responsible way, Are there a heinous killer? We still let these people out on the streets for various reasons, but no one really almost no one spends the rest of their life prison regardless, and we do have this idea- that's been since the 70s that we, rather than punish people, that we can rehabilitate them now I do believe in rehabilitation for certain types of crimes like you cannot rehabilitate rapists, pedophiles files and killers and violent people. You just cannot so it's a failed experiment. In this country that somehow or other we can kind of understand them, excuse them fix them. Somehow, it's People in America, I believe in other countries, know that's not true, it's it's impossible and it's a waste of time and resources. So rehabilitation is fine for the kid that throws a rock through your window, but
for certain crimes, there's just no way, and you see the dramatic you see these serial killers. It's soon, as you know, we just haven't luckily had those kinds of been inundated with these kinds of cases all over the country 'cause we're a smaller country being about a tenth of the size. That being said, I hope to God. We can learn our lesson before we get to that point. That's all boy that's well said. That's extremely well said, and I agree with everything that you're saying well shucks bread. We should hang out sometime absolutely absolutely. Let's have a canadian beer, it's more alcohol. Yes, absolutely right! I want to thank you very much. This has been. I e in a credible interview and a lot of fun had a great time doing it, and I want to tell the audience we been listening to Frederick than any has a He told you have your own blog as well, so this quickly tell us about that sure it's red rose and dot com, and I and I keep my readers up today.
On cases that I'm working on both of former cases and active cases. The people can go there and I have up. You can click on now the information on these cases or and also if they want to buy a book they can, they can click on the the image I mean. If somebody wants to buy it and and hopefully they do 'cause, I got but make it through school, and so he eyes Red rose, and I can't I don't horsemen. Somebody wants the contact me through Facebook, I'm on Facebook, and you know, I've got a bit pretty PA public presence and I love to hear from people because, as you well know, this is who we do this for without people who the people who are listening, uh, I'm not in business,
we're not in business. You know we rely on you and- and I also rely on the readers to tell me what they think not just about the book, but as we've had this discussion about crime about the social problem. Is what they this is. This is what this is, how you learn you keep yourself open to people and and the more people communicate the more we get. Someplace absolutely well spoken. Well, thank you Fred Do yourself a good evening when people been listening to the program when ST more across Fred Rosen? Thank you very much Fred. You have yourself a good eve. You wouldn't have once again here, but I do so. Thank you. I beg you figure.
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-04.