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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. The nineteen. Seventy eight murder of actor, an american icon, Bob Crane remains one of the most high profile, unsolved, celebrity murders of all time. Thirty, eight years, after his brutal murder in Scottsdale Arizona.

Things around. The world still want answers was John Carpenter, the killer or did police arrest an innocent man, for nearly forty years. Police remained convinced of carpenters. Guilt early dna testing decades ago was unable to positively link carpenter to the crime. The two friends lived on the edge sharing a dark obsession, videotaping women during their sexual encounters in an unprecedented investigation report. John Hook, retest the original blood evidence using modern dna science in a final search for answers. Scientists believe this is the last chance to test dna from the crime scene. The final close up in identifying Bob Crane's killer.

Is exhausted all remaining avenues to on earth answers in this intriguing and haunting cold case will be closed. The book on the crane murder once and for all who killed Bob Crane is hooks first hand account of a two year investigation and search for the true. It seemed through the eyes of the people who were there, witnesses, detectives, prosecutors, jurors and family members. John hooks takes readers on an incredible reporters journey for inside look at the sensational physical evidence in a final attempt to learn the truth in who killed Bob Crane. The final close up with my special gas journalist and author John Hook welcome to the program, and thank you very much for granting this interview John Hook Dan. It's an honor to be with you. You do great work.

I really appreciate the opportunity well. Thank you very much. This comes on kind of a great day for something like this, so I guess, on the eve of Valentine's day, have a twisted twisted love story. I guess in some ways- maybe not anyway. Congratulations on a great book. Tell us of what your background is. How you came to be involved with this. I know you venture into it. A little bit later in the book, tell us how you came to be involved with this incredible case Dan. I grew up with Bob Crane, he was part of my childhood watching him on hogans heroes here, you know I was a little young when it came on the air, but I certainly appreciated it as time went on, and I learned that this guy was tremendous comedic genius as I went along through life. I end up in Arizona was the California kid grew up on crane and Hogan's heroes.

When I came out to Arizona. I happen to come out here in the summer of one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight two months after Bob Crane was murdered in Scotts Dale, a mere seven miles up the rd from my dormitory, so this story, and Bob Crane has been with me almost my whole life. I could have never imagined that I would end up in the middle of it. By re testing the dna evidence from the original crime, but one so. I was in journalism and started to work on stories and understand more about covering crime stories. This story intrigue me, when I interviewed his son for tv show back in March of twenty fifteen Bob Crane Jr, who wrote the forward for the book who killed Bob Crane by the way Sonor, I interviewed him and felt very strongly the pain of a one who had gone through this and lost his father, an really didn't, have any answers as to who killed his father And it haunted me for days and

finally can't tell you Dan how it came to me, but a few days for the interview it was sticking with me. Sticking with me and I saw what happened while that evidence was it around. Could it be retested if we found it? What could modern dna science tell us that they could get back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, when John Carpenter, the chief suspect in the case, went on trial and so He was the first phone call I made. I called him and said if we find this Bob, what how would you feel about his reach and there was silence on the phone I thought I had offended him and he said. Oh, my god do you think that's possible and I say did Bob I'm going to give it a shot? Are you are you ok with it, and he said yes, but that long silence Dan was uncomfortable, because I really thought I had sending him, but once he understood what I was doing and what I wanted to do,

which was really endless for the family and that's how I got involved now before you endeavor to do this. Did you have a any idea about how easy or how difficult it was to get testing read retested evidence retested? I didn't, I didn't know a lot but frankly about dna other than covering the Oj Simpson murder trial, covering so cases here in Arizona that dealt with the I I would say it was really a novice Indiana DNA. So I did no first of all what we would need. I was thinking. Primarily as we go through this too sorry! You learn that when crane, was murdered. There was blood in John carpenters, rental car we can get into the relationship between crane and carpenter. But there was blood found,

in John Carpenters, rental car. The two were prowling around together, making x rated videos together pornographic video Is he in crane would travel on the road carpenter work for Akai? He worked for and would he work for Sony? He was a video was, and he was a very successful video salesman by the way, John CARP, and this was the glue that bound he in crane together. The interest been betting women, an videotaping it that's what John Carpenter introduced Bob Crane two and so when blood was found. Put on the door of John Carpenter's rental car here in Scotts Dale, and then they tested that blood and it turned out to be type b blood which happened to be Bob Crane's blood type? You can imagine what police instantly thought, so the blood we tested was what was on that door panel

in John Carpenters, rental car, but first we had to find it now, let's go back as you do and start at the beginning and talk about this icon, Robert Crane Bob Crane Hogans hero star, as you do in the book Tell us a little bit about the evolution of his career. He was a big radio guy on Knx Radio, in LOS Angeles, at tell us about Robert Crane's career and his ascension to fame and his success with hogans heroes. Tell us about that Dan. He was a tremendous radio personality. It was probably his greatest skill actually and I think he was very wistful for radio. When he got into television because television it can be very contrived and controlled. I've worked in both medium. And I know this first hand being an anchor on television here in Phoenix

I started in radio radio is ultimate liberty and freedom really, and especially I, like Rainy, was a morning dj. He did voice this impersonations, he played the drums, live on the air. He had scintillating guests when he moved to Hollywood and go The Java Canax can actually get started on the EAST coast in Connecticut, New York He had worked small markets and became so good on the east coast. That CBS took notice and said this guy in Connecticut. Is siphoning. Our listeners from our mother ship New York City. We got to get this guy out of here, so they moved him out to LA. Takane x to be the morning guy when I believe it's Jack store, went to. I think it was a sixty four thousand dollars pyramid, or one of these shows he who is the original morning guy they got crane into TIM to replace him and so took became a huge, huge radio star. He was dubbed

getting in the la or waves out in LA on CAN x, which is just a blowtorch station. So when he's out there and he's doing this madcap morning, show producers in Hollywood started to take notice of Comic genius of the sky, Ann Crane was also starting to reach out in television. He was getting gas shots on Donna Reed on the old dick, Van Dyke show with Mary Tyler Moore, who just passed away. He starting to make some inroads Twilight so he was getting gas shots. Then this script comes along for hogans heroes and he reads it and he does

quite understand what they're trying to do, but he recognized the comedy of it and it was a brilliant script and he loved it now, at the same time and he's this he's landed these acting roles, you go back to nineteen forty nine he's married his high school sweetheart and Terzian, and they had three children together. So. Tell us what he is like, as in terms of a family man and and how he balances this. His movie career radio career, this entertainment career with his family. How well does he do that and you're still commented about family life. It was difficult as Bob Crane's notoriety increased his access to women increased. Of course he married, as you said, his high school sweetheart and they had three children. He was trying to play two roles at once, he was trying to get his career rolling. He

Is a family man born and raised Catholic, an altar boy? Probably some repressed said visual things going on there with that upbringing, very middle class, Connecticut, but when he gets route to Hollywood, and you start seeing Calif and I mean all of California, and not just the topography. If you know what I mean His interest in women and pornography grew and it eventually consumed and cost him that first marriage there's no doubt about it: uh so as his celebrity grew and his access to women group, probably by the by the MID 50S, certainly by the late 50s, he was playing around and he was taking polaroids and snapshots of some of this, so. He was doing some of this early on, but it wasn't till he met carpenter on the set spoken zeros when he met John Carpenter that ignited the firestorm that consume them, because Carpenter introduced him to VIC,

the shape which, at that time was only consumer. Consumers couldn't get their hands on it. It was only industrial type. You know the technology so Carpenter introduces crane to this, and carpenter had been introducing people like Red, Skelton and Elvis, and people like to this technology and teaching them how to use it, the smothers brothers, among others he

teaching kind of the mucky mucks in Hollywood, how to use this new technology and for crane it became a vehicle for pornography. You also talk about Richard Dawson, one of the other stars of Hogan's heroes, and he facilitated. He first met carpenter and then Carpenter was introduced to Bob Crane fly that and it's still be important later when we mention Richard Dawson, as he comes up again in this story. You talk about this natural sex obsession that Bob Crane had and then matched with his need to photograph and chronicle and document his sexual encounters. So tell us what the relationship started with like with a carpenter and really what was that? What did this relationship and tail well? They were pals and carpenter. You know it's been portrayed as a hanger on and a loser, and some of this is true that he was a hang around, but it wasn't a loser. He was

so the first national sales people for the country for Sony Electronics, Carpenter doing pretty well on his own. He had been raised hardscrabble in LA born outside being dissent native american descent and spanish descent, so it gave him his start complexion and always refer to himself as an Indian. He in crane strike up the friendship after being introduced by Dawson Thakker they corrals around strip clubs in LA because crane love to go into strip clubs and play the drums beat beyond all of the work he was doing. He still love to be around women and his music, and he was uh a frustrated, jazz musician. Buddy rich, was a big influence. These are people I idolize but being in a strip club playing. The drums was probably his nirvana. He he Carpenter would pal around and then when they started picking up women. Carp

sure showed him how to videotape this stuff and they would they would hit the road and particularly once crane was out doing the dinner thing your circuit. Once hogans heroes was cancelled in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one crane still doing tv spots, but he had to pay the bills and he ended up going out on the road doing dinner. Theater, that's what brought him Scotts Dale Arizona Carpenter as in the usual way they would operate Carpenter would meet him on the road crane. We have all of his video equipment in to and it was very bulky and junkie. Back then, and he had it in his apartment in Scotts Dale, when the murder happened. Now, as far as the family goes, you talk to Bob Junior. How much did the family know about this obsession and what did they do as a result of that obsession that

Daughters were too young to really know they have more of an idealized version and vision of their father than Bob Junior has Bob Junior, as he tells me in the book who killed Bob Crane. That his father's sex talk to him really revolves around showing him kind of x, rated films that was their birds and the bees talk bye, Bob Junior was certainly aware of his father's darkroom in California, and that this was a just a man cave, but it was a place where his, I was really taking hold an Bob Junior new where the sash was looked at it himself, an was very familiar with what his dad was up to and his dad to some degree didn't really hide it his dad. Just to passed it off, as I intrigued with beautiful women. Here's If you want to look at it and it was that kind of thing, he wasn't ashamed of it. However, as this obsess

with pornography grew, it certainly harmed cream. His personal life and it's certainly harmed his career as well, because executives at Disney on down were start. To catch when that this guy had this dark side an for Disney, particularly that was not a good fit that cause just a lot of trouble and they were worried about image at Disney as they rightfully should be, and so it cost him some

there's no doubt about it. Now the relationship between John Carpenter and Bob Crane may have changed, and you write that by the time one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight rolled around Bob could certainly handle the videotaping himself and certainly wouldn't need anybody to consult and things had changed and he had learned quite a bit in. There was other people that could help him. If need be. Some of the evidence you have is that you had. There was a conversation with Bob and his son Bob Junior about John Carpenter. What was said at that time. And what you think he the relationship was turning into or changing too well. I think, according to Bob Junior and he's the best source on this because he's the one who had his conversation with his father, he said his fa other, as he was approaching. Fifty well

was starting to worry about what what the next few years would bring. He Wah Isn't the matinee idol anymore? He wasn't the young Hogan in Hogans rose, he was a middle age guy approaching fifty and worried about. Could he continue get work with anybody want to see him perform I even have the recount. In the book of his last radio interview, which was it at the station that I currently work It was cool radio and he was definitely looking ahead to fifty and worried about whether he would be viable in the entertainment business. It worried him. Ah The time was going on. He relayed to his son that he felt carpenter was becoming a nuisance, This carpenter have been meeting him out on the road for several years by this point and they would go wherever cranes dinner, theater engagements took him whether it was Austin or Phoenix or some- far flung city.

Yeah his video equipment he'd be on stage for an hour and a half at night, doing beginners luck and then he had to fill the time. The other hours of the day, the other eighteen. Nineteen hours of the day he wasn't drinkery wasn't a smoker. I didn't gamble. He was womanizer that was his. That was his crack cocaine and he loved videotaping And for many years he needed carpenter to help him with this expertise, but as the equipment got better and better and Bob Crane became more familiar with the equip he didn't need John Carpenter hanging around and showing up in every city. Crane by this point could do it on his own. He didn't need a sidekick and carpenter was becoming a little bit creep. Please theory. That's Bob Crane, Junior's theory and Bob Crane Junior felt his father was sitting fifth, He wanted to make changes in his life. And shed some of these have which some of the hanger ons, particularly carpenter, and

kind of start to reassess a little bit his one, believes he was in that process and it came to a, in Scotts Dale on the summer of seventy eight, do think there is anything to the idea that if you look at the of the good looks and the charm and the star status that Bob Crane was still enjoying at that time, where John Carpenter will was older, and certainly didn't have any of those things to his advantage and yet wanted to be included in three ways. You think this difficulty as Bob got a little bit older as you write in the book. Sometimes they would go out and they would strike out in terms of not getting lucky, as opposed to Bob Crane, probably having a better track record on his own. Do you think this pdf and part of yeah? He definitely did Dan? I mean Bob Crane was still in one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight. There was still cachet in

Colonel Hogan! This show was in head. Be heavy re run around the country, I'm trying to like it to someone currently, and it would be as if Ashton, Koocher were murdered or. Maybe Charlie, Sheen, murdered a comedic actor on tell Vision, primarily who would be savagely murdered and every He would say what in the world now with Charlie Sheen, you might understand it, because it's a risky lifestyle. No one knew this about Bob Crane at the time, except the very intimates in his circle that he was obsessed with pornography. Lot of people didn't know this, so when He died here in Scotts Dale when he was murdered. It was a shock now only to us here, but to the nation that this kind of below guy on television that we've grown up with, would meet this kind of fate. Crane could still pick up women. He had a very good track record carpet are hanging around with something of a distraction. Perhaps was

even maybe a bit of albatross around cranes neck when he go out, he had to worry about what carpenter was up to and what carpenter was thinking and feeling they were friends, but I think it became a bit of a burden to him. At least that's how his son felt about it now, as you write in the book through your investigation, you find. Did the police ask eventually so we'll just take a little bit out of order order? Tell us about this long weekend and in Scottsdale, and they were were previously they've been in Dallas, as your investigation shows in an apartment there now he's in Scotts performing at this dinner, theater tell us about what what different about this weekend and the relationship before we get into just previous to the day of the murder and tell us about carpenter,

and Bob Crane and their activities during that last day and that last weekend, Dan, usually the the pathway was usually pretty clear car printer would find out where crane was on the road they make. Arrangements to meet on the road carpenter would kind of for this by saying it was business, but it wasn't business. It was all pleasure he did very little business when he was here he visited one shop that he did. Some video biz one of his clients up in feet, and that was the extent of it. It was an afternoon in a lunch, and that was that, he came here to see Bob Crane and pick up women that that's why he would come out on the road usu if they would stay together, crane would have an apartment, typically a two bedroom apartment when he was performing Beginner's luck provided by the theater, the theater paid, for crane state in it, but it was two bedrooms, so he'd have carpenter stay with him and

they would chat around until all hours of the morning. Looking for women bars at that time, in Phoenix close to one hundred o'clock so it was a fairly early night by EAST Coast standards, but on this particular trip, carpenter did not stay with Bob Crane. He stated a hotel down the street and this was also assigned that crane was trying to distance himself from carpenter. Didn't want him staying with him and this is actually started earlier in Dallas Carpenter stayed afk two nights in Dallas the stop before the beginner block Stop in Scotts Dale. He also stayed in tell there so, for the last full of trips. They were not staying together. Crane was in the view of investigators and his son. Emancipate from Carpenter and carpenter was not apparently taking a well and p people saw them have an argument. It wasn't openly ha

little, but the waitresses and bartenders at this establishment in Phoenix saw them. Having this very intense discussion where the body language was such the carpenter was very unhappy and put out by whatever was going on now after this after this event, at the at at other than the stab, which meant what does John Carpenter do, and what does Bob Crane doing? Who is Bob Crane with were fast forwarding now to the night of the murder? This argument help in a couple of days before the murder and they parted ways, but Carpenter was upset. Now they still hung out. Carpenter went to his performance on Wednesday night in Scotts Dale, which was based leave the night of the murder. It happened in the early morning, hours of Thursday June 29th Carpenter attends Bob Crane's performance.

Beginner's luck on Wednesday night, as you typically would. This would have been carpenters last night in Phoenix in Scotts Dale. He was supposed to leave the next morning on a flight to la and crane was supposed to take him to the airport. That was the plan that never happened because Bob Crane was killed. They attended the performance of owners luck at the Scotts Dale Windmill Dinner theater. They get out to the parking lot and very interesting Lee that night. The tire on cranes, vehicle, The right rear tire is flat. Now you can imagine when investigators in hindsight. The right rear tire is flat in a darkened parking lot at the end of the performance, and many people read that that that may have been could've been carpenter that let the air out of the tire to Lee Bob Crane, vulnerable

in that parking lot, trying to change a tire late at night, where that might have been the first attempt to kill him. That's what investigators thought they were a little bit divided on that point, some thought is a coincidence. But what are the chances on the night year murdered that you have a flat tire out in the parking lot? I suppose it could happen, but it certainly looked suspicious to investigators instead of fixing it crane says, let's get in the car and will drive down there, so they drive to the Arco station about three hundred yards away. They get the tire change, go back to cranes, department, after the performance and they head out and pick up women. They did their usual routine. All this night, both of them struck out and that's where we end up the night ending carpenter going to his hotel crane going to his apartment and the two of them having a telephone conversation very late or at

early early early in the morning on Thursday, now the woman that was with Bob Crane says witnesses. Something said from John carpenter but she's not sure it's either or tell us what she thought he either or said regarding background. They kind of met with two women at the the at the cafe right at John Carpenters, hotel, which was literally I've driven it it's thirty seconds down the street from Bob Crane's apartment? That's how close this was. They go into the car shop, they meet these two women there they had planned to meet them. One of them they drove with Carol Newell. Who was world that they had met at a bar that night she came to breakfast with them crane like to eat breakfast after his show and after he'd been out at the bars uh

and then Carolyn Bray, who was crane state met them there. So there's the four of them at this cafe having Breck just an making small talk talking mostly about videotaping, shows by the way they end up out in the parking lot carpenter takes his day. Newhall Home and as he's walking out to his car crane is a little bit behind with Karolyn Baray, who was a local they are saying. Their goodbyes and carpenter says something to crane. He seems upset and crane says what what's the matter with you what's up carpenter either. According to Bray I'll, see you later or I'll, see you tomorrow, because The plan was for Bob Crane to take John Carpenter, the airport, that next day when Carpenter was flying out, and so that's the last that anybody that we know of seas crane that night Crane says goodbye to Carolyn Bray, Sheeraz, listed his advances. He want

to come to his apartment. She wouldn't he offered to go to hers she wouldn't let him carpenter in the meantime takes new a young girl in a early 20s, maybe twenty up to his hotel room. They this they roll around in the bed a little bit she wants to get out of. There he's quite a bit older than her he's in 40s late 40s and instead. City take her home and he was a gentleman and did took her home just a few minutes away and goes back according to Carpenter, to his hotel room and call spot great. This is John Carpenter's account that he called Bob crane and said what are you doing and Crane says I'm standing here in in my apartment, editing Saturday night fever in my boxer, shorts odd conversation to have, but that's how carpet, remembers it and that's what he told place. So he says everything is fine in the Bob Crane struck out and that he struck out and Carpenter says that

I know you're busy tomorrow I'll drive myself to the airport. Now the plan was for crane to take Carpenter to the airport. It was noted in crane's day planner that was by his bedside stained with his blood when they found him the next day. So Carpenter insists that he made this arrangement to cut off crane, taking him to the airport that he drive himself. He hangs up, he packs for twenty more minutes, and then he says that he calls crane again now the to me, is a little bit suspicious. If you've already had this conversation, why do you need to call the guy again and this this how's. My curiosity and investigators what's left to talk about, but Carpenter says he called him back a second time. Twenty minutes later, how you doing? What are you doing? well I'm standing here, I'm editing Saturday, night fever and my boxer shorts and I'm going to go to bed.

The carpenter says well great I'll call you when I'm back in California, that is the version from John Carpenter. Police, believe otherwise police believe that he went to cranes apartment that night after he had struck out crane open the door. Let him into the apartment, because he knew He may have been even perturbed that he was coming over that late, but it was two hundred and thirty in the morning, probably, but means motto in Life- was don't make waves. And so he would have let him in, but he also Dan would have let in a woman if a woman had come to his apartment late at night too, play around. He would have let her in so this is where police have to figure out who did crane let into his apartment that night, because there was no sign of forced in into that apartment and even someone with a key. We have made a lot of noise opening up to locks on the front door.

A crane was a notoriously light sleeper. If, if the kill Or had come through the Arcadia door, which looked out on the pool in the back of the apartment, the killer would have you come through a tangle of video cables and tv sets and video equipment lined up along that Arcadia Door and trying to enter in the dark would have been a nightmare and probably would have knocked something over an awoken crane, and it also would have in a noisy entry, so police theorize that the killer was let into the apartment willingly by Bob Crane. No sign of a struggle in the apartment, no sign of forced entry, we're going to talk about John Carpenter and how he becomes a suspect so quickly and the call that Bob Junior gets just going to stop for a second to talk about our sponsor tonight. I wanted to talk to you real quick about hunt a killer.

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sent off one word: murder. So, head on over to hunt a killer, dot, com and register now tell them. We sent you Hunter killer, dot com. When we last left off John, we were just about to talk about what happens the discovery and I wanted to take it. Take you back to how he is discovered, because it's interesting as well that one of the women that he was working with supposedly Bob is supposed to meet him for some rehearsals, supposedly voiceovers at his apartment. Tell us about this. Is Vicky pardon me. That's a disk Rivers, Victoria Apartment actress Victoria Berry how she discovers Bob and in what state dance she went over to cranes Department the day he was myrrh Word at about two hundred in the afternoon, they were planning to meet

over job. I've seen from Beginner's luck that, ironically, John Carpenter had taped a few days before using video equipment they had done. It theater, but she wanted to overdub are voice on to that scene. She was looking for tv work. Another work outside of begin. There's like she wanted to try to get in cellavision. She was having a heck of a time I The biggest part sheet had was in Starsky and Hutch she'd had a fit bit part in that she goes over to C Crane and have him help her do this overdub now, who knows what else was on cranes? Mind Even her mind because they had been in bed twice during the run, a beginners luck. They had had a sexual relationship, it was infrequent, but there was some attraction there and they had got together before so you can imagine she

goes over. There are two two in the afternoon who knows what would have happened, but she gets to the door, though going to ostensibly do work, theater work, if in cranes apartment using his video equipment she knocks on the door. There's no answer she knocks on the door and calls out Bob Bob, no answer now they have this meeting, a crane is usually pretty good about keeping his appointments. She decide is to just kind of open the door. Thinking maybe he's out in the pool in the back and to her surprise, the front door is open. He always locked his doors. Crane had become very carefully locking his doors, and this was known to anyone. Anybody who was around him so for the door to be Ope, and it kind of startled are but she walked in and it was completely dark in the apartment she heads out to that are

Arcadia Door picture in your mind, going through a door of an apartment in straight ahead is a window covered with drapes. It's completely dark, but the pool would be out that window the Arcadia door. She goes to that Arcadia Door and opens the drapes to see if Bob may be out by the pool she's. Calling out his name in the apartment and there's no answer. The apartment is pitch, dark, she's, trying to adjust her eyes, no answer from Bobby's, not out by the pool she ducks back into the apartment deeper into the apartment and takes a right hand, turn which leads into Bob Crane's bedroom. She pushes open the door and Bob crane is dead in that bed, though she doesn't realize it at first. She sees a form, a lifeless form in that bed with dark. Streaks and believes it's a woman with long dark hair and she

king the woman may be shot herself or killed herself there's she can. See the blood. Now her eyes are adjusting. She thinks that one of Bob Crane's girlfriends has taken her life in his bed, because others had threatened that before girlfriends of his. So it wasn't a complete The novel concept. Upon closer look, she thinks it might be the form of a man, but could it be John Carpenter, his friend? Could it be Bob? She doesn't know she runs out of the apartment. Scream Runs into a woman in the apartment, complex, screaming telser, there's somebody dead in the apartment and they call the police Scotts Dale Place, Scottsdale police arrive about two hundred and twenty just a few minutes after the discovery, and then we're often.

Trying to figure out first used at in bad and what the heck happened in that apartment, and is it Bob Crane when the police finally get their what's fascinating? Is that the phone rings, the police? Are there taking a statement from Victoria? The phone rings? A please ask Victoria to answer the phone. Tell us about this, and and it's not just one phone call now, on the other end of the phone she picks up. The phone hello hi is Bob there who's this. It's John John Carpenter, who's. As it's Victoria Victoria, very big story. Berry was giving statement to police, as you mentioned in the phone rings, are startled an officer dean tells her lieutenant dean who lieutenant RON Dayne. Who investigated this case from the beginning. He says pick up the phone go ahead and pick it up. She picks it up and it's John Carpenter on the phone calling Bob Crane's apartment.

He wants to know where Bob is. She says, he's not here right now and then Lieutenant Dean grabs the phone from her. He says, is Lieutenant RON Dean from the Scotts Dale Police Department. We have an incident here, carbon, says well. This is a joke. The carpet on Bob's friend, I'm back in LA I just wanted. Tell Bob I'm here, Carpenter never asks what the problem is in the apartment. He brass and police say he never asked because he already knew the answer. But at this point, They didn't really know who this John Carpenter was, but John Carpenter was trying to make it very clear to police that he was in LA not in Scotts Dale. He was back home and had been, for many hours, starting to as investigators were later

build an alibi? He was building a timeline, an alibi to try to tell police. In so many words, don't look at main, I'm back in LA, and I have nothing to do with this. He even said to dean on the phone that he had talked to Bob late at night that he Bob was going to take him to the airport, but Carpenter said I'll. Take myself and I'm going to take myself and drive myself to the airport and that's the last time they spoke was when Carpenter called him on the phone own the night of the murder just hours before twelve hours before that's what carpenter story was, and he was sticking to it. So he calls once and then he calls a second time, but in between the Kohl's department twice in between those two calls. He calls Bob Junior. He calls Bob Crane's son

a highly unusual move. According to Bob Crane son. He told me in my book who killed Bob Crane that printer. We typically if he would call him at all. He would call him before a trip to see his father to get video equipment to get it cable, that his father might need, but never at the end of a trip to trips over there's, no reason to call. He calls Bob Crane, Junior and says hey Bob. This is John just wanted to check in and let you know I'm back from my trip with your dad. Everything is fine. If you need anything, call me and, as Bob Crane tells me in the book, Bob Crane Junior he so taken aback by the call he said he literally held the phone at the end of the call and looked at the receiver and said what was that all about, he was shocked and it instantly call it one slash six sense: he was instantly concerned,

and after sitting on it for a few minutes, he called the apartment to find now just to kind of check, make sure everything is ok in Tori berry answered the phone that time she said no, your dad's, not here he said his dad. There are no it's Victoria and Bob Crane Junior knew who she was. She said, no, your father is not here she is a consummate actress. She never let on that. Anything was wrong. Here's Bob Crane dead. Just thirty feet away: and she's pretending that everything is fine. She doesn't want to alarm. He says well when he gets back. Tell him that I called and thank you for the card. 'cause. He had sent him a birthday card. Bob junior birthday was right around this time. And so sandwich after. That call is the second call from John Carpenter highly suspicious same thing, where he's trying to discuss the timeline, and we can get into that if you wish. But investigators at that point were very kind of

wondering who this John Carpenter was you kept calling the apartment now there is. You also have the they do, the campus of the neighbors and there's an interesting testimony from the the neighbor upstairs in the unit above and what does she you say about a phone call again phone call she heard, and what that phone call sounds like to her Carol. Car fled. Is her name. She live directly upstairs from Bob Crane's department at the Winfield place, apartments which still exists by the way in Scotts Dale. She overhears the phone conversation. The Bob Crane made after he had remember, will go back to our timeline Wednesday night? He perform, beginners luck. He in carpenter go out to the car. The flat tire on his on his car.

They drive to the gas station, get it fixed, get it changed and they draw back to Bob Crane's department. Bob crane is late because he wants to call his wife Patty there in the middle of a bitter divorce, they've got a son Together, Scotty who's, six or seven years old. At this point he was just about turning seven. They have a conversation that, as typical during this period, ended In a lot of shouting and yelling and Carol Car flood up upstairs this conversation, it was a one sided conversation, but she could hear Bob cranes framing shaver remark to her husband, who I've interviewed that if he doesn't stop screaming, he's going to lose his voice and not be able to perform the next night. That's how loud it God, even by John Carpenter's own testimony. He was so alarmed that the voice was so loud that he looked outside the window. At in cranes department, he was there with them. After the performance,

He wanted to make sure nobody over heard all this, because it was getting loud. They were arguing and Crane slams down the receiver, so they had a big fight, big row on the phone crane slams down the receiver storms out of the room, the back bedroom says to Carpenter that woman that woman, let's go, let's go find some music and they hit the road and went out looking for girls, their typical strategy, but that fight was interesting because Bob Crane Junior thought all along that his his mother in law. This is Bob Crane's, second wife, now Fraulein Hilda on Hogans heroes. He married her, that's Patty, uh Buckley Jr, always felt the patty would have been a very strong suspect in this murder because she had money to two game. If Bob Crane died, they were in the middle of this divorce. She would get it all and the

it became a real source of suspicion for Bob Crane Junior. The only problem is is that the phone records are very clear and flight records are very clear that that Patty Crane was Bainbridge Washington on an island with Scotty their son, and it would have been impossible for her That phone call was made to Washington confirmed there would have been no flights out of Washington state. Could have possibly gotten down to Phoenix or Scottsdale that night for her to kill. Him could not have happened so investigators when they dug into this discounted that pretty early on, but they checked on it. They were also intrigued. But they do not believe that she was the guilty party. Now you document how Carpenter becomes more and more a suspect by his you talk about lies that he says are inconsistencies will will put it that way.

Inconsistencies and also suspicious behavior, like Carpenter, also called the windmill theatre, which seemed to be out of the norm for him as well. For no reason for him to call there as well. So tell us about some of the things that police find from the phone call they get from him and then once they get to to finally get to talk to him, some of the things that he's either revised or changed or now has said Tell us a little bit about his odd behavior in some of the things he says to police well, sandwiched in between and even before, calling cranes department, the day of the murder and when I say yeah, the murder it occured really early in the morning, probably three hundred to three hundred and thirty. In the morning is pretty much a timeline that police est time of death based on food contents in Bob Crane, stomach carpenter, call the windmill Jenner

theater that next day didn't only call cranes Department but called made two calls to the windmill dinner theater. Now Bob Crane was notorious for showing up very late to performances. He would cut it right to the edge when he would go to the dinner theater. He would show up just minutes before curtain. He drove the stagehands crazy, so Carpenter New, if he's calling in the afternoon asking is Bob around is Bob there. He knew better than anyone that Bob Crane would not be at the windmill dinner theater at two hundred in the afternoon. It just wouldn't it sense, Bob Crane would show up when it was time for work and not a moment before he called there twice asking fishing police felt. He was fish. King and eager to find out if anybody knew whether Bob Crane's body had been discovered. Weth

police were on the trail. How far along were they they felt. This was all about finding out information. It was highly suspicious I'll give you that His friends say it doesn't mean anything, but investigators thought it meant a lot at that time. You talk about, and this is the current and lots of the books that are over twenty or thirty years old. Some of these cases tell us our audience just for people that don't know. What's the state of dna testing in seven he ate and then tell us. How significant is this blood type b, which is you say, is not only in the present and nine percent of the population. What do they do with that, and why is there? No charges at that time will tell us about the struggle to get enough evidence and there at the the tension between certain factions in

this, when, when Carpenter kind of rose to suspicion was not only the phone calls the strange relationship, the two of them had, but a day later, Scotts Dale Police were Curie about John Carpenter's comings and goings in Scotts Dale, Bob Junior had told investigators that Carpenter would be somebody of interest that they better look at that concern them. Then they looked for carpenters, rental car that he had been driving it. This is a car that became the linchpin of the whole case, They tracked down a nineteen. Seventy eight Chrysler Cordoba that Carpenter had rented carpet or turned it in the day that he left, the airport and took a cab to Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix, he turned

the Cordova at eight hundred and thirty in the morning going by the timeline. This would be about five hours after Bob Crane was murdered early in the morning he's in a hurry. Everyone who interviewed him that day or talk to him that day at the anybody who spoke more had an encounter with him. He was rushed. A carpenter says it's, because his flight was that he thought it was at one thousand one hundred o'clock and then. Like it, was a one thousand o'clock, so he was suddenly in a hurry to get out of there. Nonetheless, he turns in the car and before he turns it in at the haute. Well, at the Sunburst hotel he tells the woman at the desk. The cars got a problem. When I put on the brakes, the interior lights come You should really take this out of the queue and and have it serviced and have this fixed. So the car ends up at a Dealership a Chrysler dealership to be serviced. Scotts, Dale police tracked the car

down to that dealership the day after the murder they finally tracked it down. So now it's been about twenty four hours. They find the car they approached the car. They find out that it has not been read. Anybody that they are trying to fix it? They look inside the car and see a blood streak on the passenger door. And upon closer inspection, there's blood on the window, power switch. There are some blood smears or smudges on the door. There is a felt portion of the door in the middle of the door, that had blood on it and Scotts Dale Police immediately impounded Cardi Psr State Police Agency did all the testing on the car at this time. Dan. There is no dna one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight dna in nineteen. Seventy eight is still oh twelve years away from being invented, at least

in a criminal sense invented it was there. We just didn't understand how to use it, so they find the blood and they test the blood they take swabs of the blood they come shut off the entire part of the passenger door. That's got the blood on it, they tested and they find out its type b. Blood well. Wouldn't you know type b blood found in nine. Send. The population and Bob Crane happens to be type b. So now investigators are really focusing on carpenter, because they've got what they think is the victims. Blood in his rental car

And the working theory is time went on was that the blood was deposited by the murder weapon that was placed in the passenger seat, rubbed against the door and left the blood, and that's what became the key part of the case against John Carpenter. Now you talk about the valley proceed with this, but how does he perform under pressure in interviews with police, one Scotts, Dale Police found the blood in the car. They said we need to go out and visit carpenter by Wayne. You alluded to it earlier. Carpenter had called Scotts Dale Police that same day that they were looking at the car. He called Scotts Dale Police that morning and revised its timeline from the day before during the phone call

to Bob Crane's apartment? He had told investigator dean that he had last talked to Bob Crane at one in the morning. He revised that timeline to a guy on the desk at Scotts, Dale PD and said. Let those guys know that got kind of mixed up. It was actually more like three in the morning that I last talked to Bob Crane because we had breakfast out out at the safari, which was the coffee shop at the Sunburst Hotel, where Carpenter was staying. We had breakfast, morning and we all got out of there at about two hundred o'clock. So I think I talked to him last about two thirty or three, something like that. He was revising his time line because there were witnesses who would have known there were witnesses who they ate breakfast with Caroline Baray, an Carol Newell. Who would have known that that timeline was correct, so he revised his timeline in that call to Scotts Dale Police, Scotts Dale police were becoming in

We focused on John Carpenter and, in fact flew out on the first of July to interview on carpenter out in LA they tracked him down at John Carpenter's Girlfriends House John Carpenter been married for fifteen some years, but lived with a girl name, Rita cloture in an apartment and Scotts Dale Police went to this address carpenter. Wasn't there, they talked to Rita, Rita, said he's out he's not around carpenter calls the apartment out of the blue. The cops tell him that they want to talk to him. He says I'm at my mother's house. Seventy miles away I'll drive over, but it's going to take me awhile. It's going to take me over an hour, but I'm coming back and I'll be glad to talk to you guys he was very cooperative. He wasn't it. As my

this house, Carpenter was staying with Richard Dawson that weekend right after the murder, he stayed with Richard Dawson Peter Newkirk, on the show, Hogans heroes right and there was tension and bad blood between Richard Dawson and Bob Crane in that show by but ironically, as we mentioned it was it was it was Richard Dawson who introduced John Carpenter to Bob train on the set of hogans heroes. So it's now kind of coming full circle, but where does Carpenter seek refuge after the murder? He goes to Richard Dawson's house, a high profile celebrity that investigators felt he did this to provide cover, provide cover from police, make it harder to find him.

Give him time to get his head together, whatever it may have been, that's what they thought now, at the same time, you juxtapose you have the autopsy with this doctor, Thomas Jarvis, deputy medical examiner, and you talk about the the manner of death, but you also talk about some abundant dry blood on the face and also a flaky white dry material in the pubic hair. Tell us about what happens with this doctor, Thomas Jarvis, especially with the Questions that Dennis Borkenhagen has for him regarding that flaky white material. Well, at the autopsy there is clearly dried semen on Bob Crane's right, thigh, an lower right abdomen. It's curious because Craneway clad in boxer shorts. When his body was discovered, Borkenhagen wanted the semen tested he wanted to know

if it was Bob Crane's or possibly- and it was just a theory- did the killer masturbate over cranes, lifeless body. That was a theory. Nobody had any proof they just wanted. The semen collected The dried semen and Jarvis, told Borkenhagen Borkenhagen said can said to let's scrape that off and collect it and Jarvis gruffly said to him: what's that going to tell you that he had a piece, fast before he died, and that was the end of that because As in the medical examiner's office there, the boss and Jarvis didn't want to collect it didn't think it. Many thing, and that was the end of that. It would have been interesting to know if it was Bob Crane

Demon or someone else is so that stops that part of it. But what happens with any of the evidence that they do? What evidence do they have at that crime scene that they find that they feel is useful and able to be used as they move forward in Bob Crane's bedroom Bob Crane is bloodied and on partially on a pillow on his bed blood soaked. His left side of his head caved in from two vicious gloves. There are two peculiar parallel marks on his skull about two inches long. This becomes a search for the murder weapon that later much later, the theory becomes its camera tripod that killed him. They arrive at that theory because of these two parallel marks and all

so marks on cranes bed at the foot of the bed. There was a v shaped stain and investigators, kept kind of racking their brain. What could cause that was uh? The murder weapon wiped down twice, but it was in a very metrical v shape on this on the sheets and investigators in Phoenix. Was a camera tripod, a bloodied tripod that was laid down at the foot of the bed. Crane was found with a video camera power cord wrapped around his neck. When he was found dead, Victoria Berry sought the investigators whoever the killer was bashed in crane said and crane still may have been making noise and the killer, either in a panic to silence him or maybe, as a final fu to the victim, cut the power cord from the video camera and tide it around cranes neck right around the moment of death.

It didn't cause death, but it was kind of an ancillary act by the killer, but the v shape bloodstain led them to believe that it was more tripod, and it was only years later when they put John Carpenter on trial. They started pouring. Through all of the pornographic tapes that were shot with Bob Crane. They noted that in the videos taken in Dallas to stop before Phoenix Scottsdale, the crane had two two tribe, it's in his possession to Kwikset junior Tri pods. He had him with him in Dallas when cops entered the apartment in Scotts Dale, he only had one that led him to believe you. Just later. It took him years to figure this out that it was a missing camera tripod. The killer used on crane and then took out of the apartment. That's how they arrived at that at that theory. This is all of my

now the way the pictures are in there and you can see that v shaped stain uh, Clearly in the book. We have a photograph of it yeah. Even looted everything I was going to mention that to you've, got some incredible photos and even have well. It's a crime scene photo of Bob Crane, some of those by the way I've never been I mean before dance, so you know when we got into this. We got into evidence that that really no one's had access to we were given Carte blanche, and it was an amazing experience to go to that evidence. Years later. It was like opening a time capsule now before we get to the

the journey that you go on to try to get this blood retested and again, if you write a book, you you don't know whether there's enough of it or whether DNA technology has advanced that much or whether the evidence is, as even survived so you've gone quite a bit of a journey, but before we do that fast forward to how did the police finally get, and you also chronicle the battle between police were police, think they have enough evidence where the county attorney doesn't think there is enough, and also tell us fast forward to how. Finally, we get to the point where John carpenters charged and going to go to trial. It took fourteen years Dan. It took fourteen years to put John Carpenter on trial police felt they had motive. They felt that this softap breakup between carpenter and crane that carpenter was

taking it very well that crane wanted to jettison Carpenter, didn't want him hanging around anymore, that that was the motive. The opportune he was clearly the carpenter was in Scotts Dale thirty seconds down the street in a hotel right down the street from cranes, apartment carpenter leave Scotts Dale the day the crane is murdered. He makes peculiar phone calls to not only Bob Crane's apartment but to the windmill dinner theater. All of this is adding up they have by now confront. Carpenter in two police interviews that I lay out in the book who killed Bob Crane. I there verb eight hundred am and Reader will be fascinated to read this. If you think John Carpenter's, the guilty party, to read how he handles this interrogation, which sent by the way handled very well by the investigators, but nonetheless it's in there and it's fascinating, In the second interview with Carpenter, they confront him and say you kill them. We know you're about to tell us. Why did you kill him? It's dramatic

and I've listened to the audio of that by the way Dan, because there's audio recordings of this that I listen to in in evidence- and you know the written transcript is one thing and the audio is is another because you really get the sense of the tension in room, but prosecutors. Just weren't convinced they said. Look you know it's. Nice you've got blood of the same blood type of Bob Crane, but you still have ten percent of the population roughly, that has type b blood. How do we know that blood and carpenters cars from Bob Crane? It looks peculiar, but we don't have a will this we don't have a confession. We don't have a murder weapon, we don't have a murder weapon with prints on it. They wanted something much more ironclad because the investigation initially had been sloppy. People were trade through the crime scene. Victoria berry was in cranes, apartment making her way in a statement. So she

contaminated, the crime scene, the the medical examiner had climbed up on the bed and shave range head in bed to get a closer look at the wounds on crane said highly unorthodox. That yeah I mean they had problems with the case, and they knew it. They wanted something ironclad they wanted to can fashion. They didn't have it, they did feel they had it and they went through two prosecutors in Maricopa. Until they finally got Rick Romley, a tough marine who'd lost both of his legs in Vietnam, who was brought into office in nineteen. Ninety eight

and by one thousand nine hundred and ninety, he was off and running and said: let's pursue this thing, let's try to let's try to figure out who killed the sky it's time. It's too! It's been too much time now. What new evidence did they have at that time? What did he think he was armed with other than his tough on crime stance that he was elected on? What if any new development did they have to there at least so called advantage. It was called the tissue spec when they reopen the case in one thousand nine hundred and ninety, when Rick Romley said, let's take a fresh Look at it, they did not go into it. With the re determination that carpenter was a guy. In fact, romley said: let's revisit this from the beginning, they brought any guy named Jim Raines, another former Phoenix Pd Guy, who was very good, berry vis AL who would investigate

case of Scottsdale PD was brought in full time to look at it. They started from scratch as they went through the evidence they said, there's only six pictures in this apartment. There's only six photographs of the car they had plenty of the apartment. Pardon me I misspoke only six of the car that they could find. They said there's got to be more pictures of the blood in the car. This is the most important thing we've got, they start searching for the photographs. Rains believes there's got to be more photographs than six. They fine. Find it a roll of twenty one photos and on one of those photos which was discarded was a photo of what they Leave was a tissue spec, which pathologists looked at and said that is subcutaneous tissue from the skull that is. That is matter. That is not brain matter, but stat under the skull are

did spec on the car door along with the blood smears and now they think they've got a smoking gun, not only Do we have the blood in the car, but if there's a speck of brain tissue you in the car. It is game. Over and John Car orders rental car. He is the guy period that photograph was great, but what they really needed was the spec. Self and it was either never collected or it was lost. I believe it was collected in this place. I think it's still maybe somewhere out there, I don't know or it got thrown out. I can't imagine how, but they could never produce a trial. The actual tissue spec it was. It was either law store, never collected and that killed him, because the jury wanted better proof that carpenter was the and they didn't have it. They didn't have dna His dna was primitive and they didn't have that too

respect and they didn't have carpenter. The defense didn't feel carpenter should take the stand, and so he didn't in his defense. You know there was talk to Joe in carpenter, wanted to take the stand and that his attorney talked him out of it. There's even discussions and there's there's some there's some reporting that that Carpenter actually kind of did a mock and got killed at a much cross examination that they did, and so he realized I shouldn't take the stand. They didn't need him anyway. Now this is all presuming now that carpenter was the guy. Now there are the people who say they chase the sky around an they harangued him forever, and he was not the guy we'll get into that later. I know, but when carpet are finally went on trial in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, the jury wanted DNA and, by this point DNA had finally come around. Oj Simpson was on trial that same year, DNA,

was in its infancy, but they had gone back and taken the blood stains from the car. The Chrysler, Cordoba and tested them for DNA, but everything came back inconclusive. They tested it four times and every time they either got nothing or an inconclusive. They just could not pin it to Bob Crane's blood if it had absolutely been Bob Crane's blood is the format of the He told me in the book who killed Bob Crane. He said if we knew for sure that that was Bob Crane's blood not just type b, but Bob Crane's blood in John Carpenters car we would have convicted John Carpenter, but they didn't have it the dna was inconclusive? That's what led to my investigation,

how, many years later, almost twenty years later you you speak of the fallout from this for John Carpenter, his wife after John Carpenter, you you write that he only lasted for years, and this cloud hung over him constantly for that for years and his wife even call the Maricopa County Office, he died said. Are you happy? You killed them he's dead? That's exactly right! That was that was from your moraines, the investigator. There was a bad feeling about what did happen and because the people who thought he was innocent, his wife among them felt that they chase the sky and try pin this murder on John Carpenter when he was not the killer, Anna's. I'm sure you'll note in the book when we get around to that blood it does.

Raise serious questions about whether John Carpenter was the guy, now tell us just a little bit of this journey. On the the hurdles you had to get this that, once you said a, I think, white, why don't we get this tested? New surprisingly got the endorsement by by by Bob Crane Junior. I his support your next move, and what of some of the the hurdles you have to overcome to be able to do this? Well, it's it's frankly, unprecedented according to Cellmark Bodie Cellmark Forensics. That did the testing they by the way, did the testing on Oj Simpson and on Jon Benet Ramsey there, one of the best labs for DNA in the world. They told me they had never done this with a reporter before they had never do So they didn't really know how to proceed. It's just you usually police agencies that do this stuff, but before we got to that point

I had to find the evidence in this took months. It took months for them to find it the Maricopa County Attorneys office. They finally agreed that they would look for it. They I told him what I wanted to do. I said I want to look through the evidence, but I'm particularly interested in re testing the dna. If it still exists, the Sampa from John Carpenter's rental car, the DA's office. I give Bill Montgomery the current day. Ok, a tremendous amount of credit I've had a long relationship with him. You know I've been here, Phoenix for thirty years now, he felt comfortable that I would do it right and- and he allowed me to do it- he said if we get it, I'm ok with him testing it. If we think we can learn something more than we've known, he said even if we learn- in the truth, and it's not in a court of law. It may would be very helpful, to provide some closure for the family, finally know what the heck happened

so he was he was. On board. From that perspective, we had to find this evidence and once we once they finally found it on there at the county attorneys office, they had to go through eleven boxes of evidence and it took them months, and remember they had other cases flowing in every day, fresh cases that they had to worry about. So it took them a long time to find it where they were looking for snap cap files and tests that have been done at Cellmark years before and they finally found it an when I got that phone call from those go, as I can't tell you how exhilarating it was because we had been told many times on the way. Well, you know we've got the evidence, but we don't think the bloods in there. It must have been thrown out it was a biohazard. We don't think we've got it we're going to keep looking, but we don't think we have it and in the book I describe that phone call when I think the chapter is called, we found it,

and it was just an exhilarating moment after more than a year of waiting to try to figure out. Could we even do this? It was unprecedented we would be given this kind of access, and so so that was a thrilling and frightening thing at the same time than it really was, because You know I really wanted to get to the end of this and see if we could. If we could get an answer- and we got an answer- we just didn't get the answer that everyone expected. Why was the issues that you didn't get the answer that you wanted? What was their dna complications tell us about those complications that stood in your way. Well, the dna was preserved, in snap cap tubes in evidence in Maricopa County Attorneys office. They handled it all. We did not. I mean we were able

to only touch it from the outside nothing. We had no direct contact with evidence on the inside. No one did it was bagged up and shipped off to Cellmark Forensics inside those tubes were cuttings from the vinyl on John Carpenter's car door, that had blood on them at one time. These are the same samples that have been tested four times previous. There were two we're particularly promising that we had that they had tested it had the best blood markings on them. Those were the two that were sent to Cellmark the others were not usable uh we sent those to Cellmark, but you can imagine. Having been tested four times, you start too, especially with the early tests that were only looking for blood typing. They were Soi sing these stains and just taking all the blood off them. The protocol would be completely different. Today, you'd only take a,

part of the blood, because you only need a tiny pinprick to get you a sample at that time, they're trying to swap the whole thing- and this happened three or four times now before we got ahold of it. So when cell mark got it, they told me they said we I don't see any visible blood left on these samples. We can't see it in the lab. We've looked at it, we can't see any blood, but I didn't mean that there wasn't still cellular material from the blood still on those samples and that's what we tested. That the dna we got back, but with DNA, it's very tricky if we would have had just the blood and been able to test the that we would have known that the dna we're getting back is from the blood on the car. We got d, then a back, but we just but be sure that it's from the blue that was on the car. It could be for some other source. What I call in the book outlier DNA,

which is becoming more and more prevalent, as I'm sure, you're aware. Tell us a little bit more about it. Now, I'm not so aware about this outlier. So tell us a little bit more about this. Well, there are some famous cases. Is where particularly one out of San Jose CA, where a guy His dna was found on a man who had been murdered in his mansion of Silicon Valley magnate. This Scott was a bum and a drunk in San Jose, and he got charged with murder turns out Paramedics had treated the sky earlier in the evening and trance heard the dna from a temperature device that they clip on your finger. My his dna was transferred on that device to this guy who had been murdered when they treated that guide later, who had been murdered when they went to the murder scene. They transfer the dna from the sky onto the victim

I wasn't anywhere near the murder scene, he had and uh. Ironclad alibi. He got thrown in jail for many months because his dna was found on this guys. Fingers dna is B I'm so sensitive than that. Sometimes you bore in so far that take carpenters car door, the sample we got back, is it is the dna from the original blood that was there or could it. From the guy who put the car door together, could it be at at the plant? Could it be from the cops who swabbed it? Did they deposit some dna that we detect it? Could it be a lab worker who is advertently contaminated it. These are the things with DNA so sensitive. Now, sometimes you can get false positives that have nothing to do with the crime.

And now it is a very real possibility. According to body Cellmark Forensics that is very possible but equally possible. Is that what we got off the car door in our sample was from Bob Crane. I'm part of me was not from Bob Crane that it just was not Bob Crane's blood in there to begin with, it was type b blood from someone else that is possible in your with this investigation and everything that you have found and discovered with this, despite the not so consumed conclusive dna tests, you still believe John Carpenter is guilty of this. Can I don't know it's one of those cases where everything leads to carpenter until we get our test back

And the test of the blood, what was once blood in that rental car comes back and not only is it a profile of an unknown male, but through all of this sensitive detection, we're not getting anything from Bob Crane. That's the part that bothers me the most. If that was once blood from Bob Crane on that door and the sample that we tested, wouldn't we get something from Bob Crane, something right that has troubled me. That has troubled me. Would be certainly the leading suspect, but this raises some serious doubt, and I will tell you this Prosecution had our results in nineteen. Ninety four, because remember everything then had come back in. Conclusive. If prosecutors had had this finding in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four? I do not believe

I would have put John Carpenter on trial interesting. I wrote this you partnered and you we've talked about in the beginning about Bob Junior, doing the introduction or the forward part me so tell us about this sort of roller coaster for Bob Junior, while you're in falls in this investigation. You kept in touch with him that berry vassal who had this case it sort of consumed him. He had kept in touch with Bob Junior, so tell us what Bob Junior was feeling Throughout this thing, I tried to keep Bob in the loop, but I also was very cognizant that we were having trouble finding all this stuff and I was really worried that we wouldn't find the blood evidence and I kept him in the loop but kind of kept him a little bit on the outside. Just because didn't want to raise expectations any further than I might have already. I was concerned about letting them down. It remains

My biggest regret to this day about this whole thing I'll show here with you something I have not here with a lot of people, but I wanted you to know it when I started this, I had no intentions of writing a book it was to be a television story and. You know you get into something like this, and I just I remember. Turning to my photographer Joe Tillman, and I said you know that this really needs to be a book. I cannot possibly this in a television story, it's impossible. It's too. There's too much there and the working title of the book, as I was working on it was the Bob Crane murder case closed. I believed that we would get those results back and it would shut the door once and for all the John Car. Killed Bob Crane, it's just not what we got and it was it was tough, because I think we expected that's what

it's going to happen. Investigators thought that's what we'd get iced believe it, I think, Bob Train Junior believed it. You know we wanted to finally end the speculation is this should become like the Kennedy assassination. I mean that sounds like hyperbole, but there are some. Any theories about who killed Bob Crane did. I wanted to be- I guess, selfishly the guy who and did all this crazy speculation about who killed this man, and I thought we could do it and you know it just it's one of things where you start peeling the onion, and sometimes it leads you down roads. You never thought you get to, and that's

that's where we are right now, incredible, after all, is said and done you talked about. I guess this question will be a little bit moot, but how affected were you buy this entire investigation? You just mentioned that you know this couldn't be in a film. You had to be a book, and- and I know what that means, when you it's a burning desire, it has to be done. It's in you. How much of this affect you again? You say it was a regret not being able to give more to Bob Junior, but the case in general, this the. How much did this affect you as opposed to a lot of the other work. You've done all right. Are you know I've been living in breeding this? for two years now. Ten I mean it, it becomes. As you know, I would call it an obsession a lot. Time was spent researching this going

to the evidence which is chronicled in the book, the eh, This is fascinating, absolutely fascinating, and you know you start to kind of fall into the world of Bob Crane. His son, the people around him that the Inve, the Gators you get immersed in it, and I don't think You can do a worthy job without getting to that place. You have to be all in It's not easy on your family. It's not easy on the kid who want to know why dad's riding on Saturday afternoon, but it's got to be done, going to tell the story right and I believe in trying to get it right. I believe that the part of everything we do with with an open and honest heart, that's what I set out to do in this book. I wanted to try to put it out there

in an earnest, as there is no way possible as soon as I could on yes, and it was unknowable an incredible effort here too, and- and you really do read- take the reader on this journey with you involve all of us, as we all think. We know who Bob Greene is because we live with Hogan's heroes and we've loved his on stage and on camera persona, and we feel that we know him to certain degree, and it's interesting to that, like the family, knew the wives new people loved Bob Crane despite this, and if I think this is disgusting behavior, but people love them despite this obsession that he had and people do, like. You say a very, very interesting to see what happened to Bob Crane, the Beloved movie star

I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about who killed Bob Crane. The final close up John for those that people that might want to follow up, and do you have a facebook page for this or website? How can people follow us up in committee contact you about this Dan? Thank you thank you for the time. You've been a you've, been a great host and- and I admire what you do and your passion for what you do and into your listeners if you're interested, I I would, I would be so honored if you read the book, go to whokilledbobcrane dot com that the easiest way to order it who killed Bob dot com from there. You can get links to Amazon, barn the noble all your fine booksellers. You can do click on it right there. It's easy and we've got a very interesting page with evidence. Photos stories, blogs. I've talked a lot about this on that page and

I think, if you're interested in the in the crime, you'll you'll find it interesting well. Thank you very much for the kind words and it's been a pleasure talking to you about your great book who killed. Crane. Thank you very much. For this time, John, it's been a pleasure. You have a great night and hope to talk to you again in the near future. I hope so Dan. Thank you so much. Thank you. Goodnight Is your fixed income truly fixed income? Does it provide diversification, income and risk management for your clients at Mfs? We help advisors, deliver these essentials. We call it essential. Fixed income find out more at mfs dot com, Slash fixedincome, loyalty is all about being there day in day out.

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