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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder. With your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky get evening, Cover the haunting untold true story of the woman, whose crimes inspired speculation that Jack the Ripper was a woman on October 24th. Eighteen Ninety a woman was discovered on a pile of rubbish in Hampstead North London. Her.

Terms, were lacerated in her face bloodied. Her head was severed from her body, save a few cinus later that day of soak stroller was found, leaning against the residential gate. The following morning, the dead body of a baby was found hidden, underneath a nettle bush, so big. And the chilling story of the Hampstead tragedy. Eventually, Scotland Yard knocked on the door of number two Priory Street home to Mary Eleanor Piercy, the pretty twenty four year old, mistress who's dying request was, as bizarre and mysterious as her life woman at the devil's door is a thrilling look at this notorious murderer and the web's she wove. The book were featuring the c doing as women at the devil's door. The extraordinary true story of Mary Piercey and the Hampstead murders. With my special guest journalist and author Sarah Beth Hopton welcome to the program and th

Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Sarah Beth hopped. Hi there thanks! So much for having me it's such a pleasure. Thank you. So much calling all the way from London and thank you very much, this woman at the Devils door, incredible historical crime. Let's get to the date itself October 24th, one thousand eight hundred and ninety you talk of a young man named summer Lid Mcdonald, he's walking home in London. Took an unusual route home. A shortcut through a middle class suburb tell us a little bit about the area and what he finds and what he does. As a result of that find Sure so summer, Lid Mcdonald was the clerk Working in one of the downtown London districts and he

walking home tored his house. He was staying at a place. Five bell sees park, which is in London and he hadn't taken this particular route home for several months because there was a lot of construction going on, he was really hurry to get back out. Nobody really knows where he was going their ass, but he was in a hurry, and so he took this shortcut through some middle class suburbs, It was in between Eaten Avenue and Crossfield Road. Lots of these houses were under construction, so it wasn't very well lit some of the gas lamp had yet then put up and there were. There was no moon that night, so it was really dark outside and when she reached the back of gentleman by the name of Mister Mcleod's house at twenty eight Adamson road. He saw something dark and miss,

curious sort of lying at the side of the street and couldn't really tell what it was. Are you going to hurry? He's probably thinking about where or whatever it is, that he's headed to, but as he walks past this figure here, recognizes the outline of a of a woman. Maybe it was. You know the hem of her skirt that he noticed, but he realizes that what he's looking at is a person. Interface is covered and it seems like there's a jacket thrown across her face and he does what lots of people would have done in his position, he sort of walks on and doesn't really think anything about it. But it seems that some of that is something of a conscientious person and he can't quite let go of that image. She saw so he turns around and goes back toward this woman. Maybe she had fallen in a fit and needed medical help. Maybe

she was drunk alcoholism among women, particularly at this time in London, was sort of epidemic, but regardless he, his contents got the the better of him, and he turns around to see what's the matter with her, and I I think it's pretty clear from his court, testimony that he realizes that something is very wrong with her and whether he touches her then or shakes her or determines that she's or not. The testimony doesn't really say, but he run straight away to find a constable to help her at switch swiss Cottage will waste and he finds that constable a gentleman by the name of Arthur Gardner who was walking up and down along the upper road. The Ave there, and he Harkins PC, Gardner back to the scene, Dan Gardner checks

the woman's pulse and she doesn't have any, and so he likes this match because remember it's very dark outside and there are no gas lamps, the body has been thrown and he pulls back this brown sleeveless cardigan that covers this woman hey and her face was just absolutely blood. Smeared in her throat had been cut literally ear to ear so the constable blows his whistle and summons any of the other constables who might be earshot and he and summer would probably stand there for a few minutes. Looking at that ghastly

site and then gardeners and summer went on to to inspect the doctor that he knew in the office park. You talk about the one thing that was unusual for a crime scene that they didn't find immediately and making them speculate. That about the crime scene itself. Tell us about that. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to what? What do you mean? Well, the there was an absence it was. This is vicious absence of blood right at that? Stop? Yeah yeah, I'm sorry yeah, so you know at summer. Lid goes in such as this doctor NPC Gardner blows his whistle and locked of other constables come to the scene, constable stalker, Frederick Alguer. They answer the distress call, and so now there are a few people who are are from the body and they're doing what constables and

investigators? Do you know they're starting to look for clues? Meanwhile, Gardner also telegraph to uh Spectre right, who was on duty nearby at the Hampstead Police Station and ask him to bring an ambulance. So there's a lot of activity going on right now, an inspector right does show up he's a veteran detective, uh and everybody's looking at at this woman's body and there sort of making estimations about how she died, and here she died and maybe even why she died and to your one the things that they're looking for is blood, Is there a lot of blood at the scene of the crime? Is there not a lot of blood, and, and one of the inspectors makes mention of the fact that there's just not a lot of blood. In fact, it's really difficult to find any evidence that a crime had been committed at that site at all. There was a

strange nuts that was found from some sort of you know mechanized vehicle or or tote or stroller or something, but there was a nut that was found and it seemed to have some blood on it. And then there were bricks that were found nearby, but not so near that that investigators thought that it really had anything to do with the crime they had blood on it as well those bricks, but by and large there just a lot of blood at the scene, and so that, of course, led detectives on site too, surmise that the crime could not have happened here that what they were looking at was obviously

a murder victim and a woman's body, but that this was the dump site, not the actual crime scene. You talk about to the body being transported to the mortuary. The wind, pipe and spinal column had been divided nearly separating her head from her body, and they talk about the you talk about the fracture to the skull that they found and she was hit so hard that you say, shards of, of skull had splintered into her brain and her hands. The knuckles and body were scratched. Gashed and cut up and it looked like some sharp object was used and the police were looking for a heavy, pointed murder weapon near the scene. Right away. You talk about the influence of the media, and so the media is important in this story. What do they do immediately with just the bare facts of what is he

and as an example yeah. So we have to remember that that that the context of this crime is really important, so it is fall. It is autumn. It is October, it's late October and it's one thousand. Eight hundred and ninety- and this is just a few- you after you know the autumn of terror, when The person that has been called Jack, the ripper. Nobody knows who that is, but the person that's been called Jack. The ripper has rained there are down on a neighborhood. That's not too far from where this happened a few miles away from Camden Kentish Town, which is where this crime happened. But it's not so far that it would be outside the realm of possibility. I believe that perhaps jack the Ripper had expanded the area

which he was murdering. So the media, of course, is deeply involved in investigations of crimes at this at this time, partly because the media is very powerful of the tool of investigation and what I mean by that is that you know, even though the alliance between investigators and the media was an perhaps even still is quite tenuous. Investigators needed the media as a distribution channel to distribute details about the Keenan about the woman's description specifically in order to generate leads that they can then follow up on. So the media arrived at the scene of the crime and there are eighty estimating what kind of murder weapon could have been used. So the pall malls is that which was one of the leading newspapers at that time

The pickaxe and other suggested things like a hatchet and a hammer, and then we get the suggestion, of a razor and, of course, the minute that all of these dots start to be connected in the mind of the media, certain reporter start writing things that suggest or sound just suggestive of Jack, the Ripper's mo later. We learned that that none of this is true, but in the very early days season hours of the investigation, it seemed as though there might have been some credibility or some creed to the to the rumor that that Jack, the ripper had murdered this woman, particularly because it was a woman. There was some confusion among certain constables who worked that particular beat as to whether or not this

woman- was or was not an unfortunate, which is a euphemism for a prostitute and, of course, Jack. The ripper tended to murder prostitutes so far as we know, and there there were also because of the way that the different uh these divisions were organized at the time there was a law of overlap between people who had worked the ripper case and those who were working this crime. The fact that her throat had been cut with also very suggestive of Jack, the ripper Zemo. The fact that she had been dumped in a very dark secluded area was also very suggestive, but there were lots of things, of course, that pretty quickly confirmed that this was not the work of

the ripper. The emos were very different. The location was very different. This particular victim was not disemboweled, so on and so forth. Even so this may vary salute. News headlines and You know the area was panicked at the time most of London at this time was very panicked about these attacks. It was a nun solved murder. It was a gruesome murder. No one had ever quite seen anything like it. You know women were afraid. To walk alone at night, so it was not you know under men or or even inappropriate. I don't think for the news media to have the

on high alert and you have made some of these connection. I think what what was what was inappropriate about the media's bent on this case was that it took them. You know weeks to give up the idea that not only Jack the ripper was not to blame for this crime, but it has been weeks to give up the the idea that that the actual murderer had had not had an accomplice and, of course, we'll get to that later. Absolutely you talk about. While this is unfolding, a police officer named John Roser is walking his beat in Hamilton Hamilton terrorist, so this is an apple upper middle class neighborhood with villas, and he know. This is an abandoned bassinet and you talk of the term perambulator what was called a pram.

If you could tell us for our american other audiences about what a pram is and then You say that it was a brown skin rug draped over the hood, so tell him tell our audience what he does with this pram and what he sees yeah, so particular constable John Rosser was, as you said, just on sort of his Nightbeat in Hamilton Terrace and in this, but ticular area was firmly upper middle class neighbor it it was a neighborhood populated with these beautiful semi did gothic villas. He had been on the clock for about an hour when at about you know now it's about one thousand and thirty at night. He notices this bassinet perambulator, Mothers call this a pram. We in America would call it a stroller and it was

leaning against this garden wall of number thirty five, and there was this brown skin rug draped over the hood of the pram. You know prams at that time had hoods that almost like sun shades. You know they some of our more permanent. And this one was permanent, but some of them could retract and extend anyway. He goes over to the pram and he's holding his bullseye lantern and he turns up the edge of this rug We don't have a very good description of what kind of rug this was if it was even the rug or maybe it was something more along the lines a blanket, but in most of the testimony that Slater, given it's described as the other rug, and he sees that the underside of this rug code or blanket is lined with some sort of red coffee tugs it off the pram

and he notices that the handle was broken on the pram. It looked wet inside, but it hadn't rained, and so he suspected pretty quickly that it might have been You know wet with blood, so he didn't have very good light where he was at and again it quite dark, and it's quite late at night, and so he will it back to the S division, and to the police station there to get a better look and when he comes inside you know it must have been kind of a funny site for all of all. The inspector friends in his constable friends to watch this. You know big sur LE man walking into the police station wheeling or pram, but anyway that's exactly what he does and, of course, the the investigation into the the murdered woman was pretty hot. At this point you know it had been

a couple twenty three hours by this time and so word had clearly gotten back to the police at the police station that there was a murder of foot, and so they would have been chatting. You know all the other constables that saw roster walk in would have been chatting about this so Inspector John Hall, one was the senior officer on duty that night and they took the the pram back into some approximation of an evidence, room and started to invest and interestingly, you know forensics does and does not play a large role in solving this case. It does play a large role in star solving the case in as much as detective in an factors and constables were aware of the fact that blood evidence with type of evidence that be used to convict criminals. But, of course the technology and the science was

like it is today, and certainly you know, some of the very best forensic tools that we have now say. Fingerprinting were still you know a few years or even in this case, almost a deck get away from being used in any sort of concerted institutionalized manner. But even so you know, constables were trained. In sort of rudimentary forensics, and they were thinking about these things and so very smartly Inspector HOLLAND actually saved some measure in some of the court files. That says a teaspoon, but he saved some measure of blood that was collected from inside of the pram, expecting that could be, or should be, some examination of it and at the time, the only test that they had with to determine whether or not the blood was human or animal, but still you know it could be really important

so he saved it in some vile and then they started to pull out these really eerie objects from the pram, all of which were speckled with blood. They pulled out a waterproof apron. They pulled you know almost like a butchers apron they pulled out. The steel part of the prams handle there were black hairs, which looked sort of long, Stringy like a human, not not like a mouse or a rat or any other kind of mail. They pulled out a piece of string and I think, most or perhaps worst of all, they pulled out a piece of candy that was still wrapped in paper and it must have Look you know I sort of envision. It in my mind, is looking something like a Robbins egg. You know it is lightly speckled with blood. This little

You know perfectly round wrapped toffee candy speckled with blood, and then this is where, of course, some of the other and since collected at the scene of the crime comes into play because that brass nut that sergeant Brown had pocketed earlier that night at at the scene of the crime, or at least the scene where the body was dumped. It was later connected to this prim that roster had brought in, and when they attempted to put the nuts or a fixed and not back into the carriage it fit exactly and of course, that then linked this, ready, bassinet pram to the murder victim. You know- and these were these were about a mile bout. Two one slash two miles apart from one another. So

without that piece of evidence. Without that nut specifically, it might not have been conclude that. These two pieces of evidence were part of the same crime right. You introduced a very important figure in this book in the store where is inspector banister and right away? He enlists the presses help, as you had mentioned, hoping family member might read the description and come forward, and she was just drive does thirty years old, are Karen Complexion Blue eyes about five foot six and they described her clothing and what she was wearing. She was quite well dressed and that in the underwear and a white linen underwear that was initials, p h, embroidered

and she might have been nursing a child? They they released the all of this. So what is the next thing that happens in this case once they have that description, and they have this inspector bannister and other inspectors on the I think this is an interesting moment in the case, because it demonstrates how shocking it was. For the real murderer to be found out and what I mean by that is to say, you know, you still have these Pall Mall Gazette reporters on the scene and there working with the police to circulate now not only a description of the victim, but also a description of the suspected and straightaway. The description of the murderer is that he must be Some, you know a male first of all, a man somewhere

around the age of forty about six feet. High he's going to have a dark, mustache he's going to be wearing a light suit and a peak cap that was circulated almost immediately, and it's very strikingly similar to other descriptions that had been circulated by people who said that they are claims that they had had witnessed Jack the ripper after he was leaving the scene of a crime and so we're. You know a day or two to police, of course, are thinking that there after a man, the fact that the idea that a woman could have committed this crime. Just never entered into the equation at all. I mean so much so that when the theory that a woman,

might have been. The one pushing the pram is entered is suggested by a reporter. Yo Bannister completely dismisses it. You know, and the reporter says. Basically, you know mister saying like look. It would be really difficult for anybody to take the ball we have a woman very far in such a small pram. You know, and he starts to calculate about how he might have turned on to the Ave and which path he might have crossed and why he picked this particular spot the body out over and how the causes and of the body when they found it was No just perfect. Had someone roll the body of her size and shape out of her pram of this size and shape and the reporter and says, but doesn't it strike that a man wheeling a perambulator would be noticed. Bannister says yes will, of course,

just one telling you all this. If I desire the public to be made aware, we want to find out whether anybody seen a man wheeling a bassinet seven eight o'clock on Friday, night there's, not even any suggestion that a woman would have been involved in the case at this particular. Point, even though the reporter then follows that up with saying well, do you think? woman could've wield the body to where it was found and Bannister says, I don't think it's likely if she did, she couldn't have wielded very far and we see this kind of no teeth about this sort of gendered idea? Uh women as murderers throughout the rest of the entire k and the trial and portrayals of her in the media. It was just such a shocking idea that a woman might have been involved in a crime that was this and I'm going to use this term

I'm going to say this masculine and what I mean by that, of course, is that lots of women during this time not lots, but there were enough women during this time who were murdering but the kinds of murder that they committed very, very different. You know it was much more likely for a woman of this time to have committed the crime of infanticide, an example or if they were going to commit murder, they might poison their husband or their lover or their lovers lover, but but you to have conceived and executed a crime that was this physical, took investigators and the press down a path of speculation that that was really well. It was undone of course it was proven to be undone later on, but it just wild. I mean it was just completely outside the realm of possibility that that they could conceive of

woman actually executing a crime that was this physical. Let's get back as you do to Saturday morning, the very next day at six hundred Am October 25th, one thousand eight hundred and ninety a man named Frank Hog, a thirty one year old men. He woke alone. He was terribly concerned about his wife, but his wife had discussed, leaving possibly to tend to her sick, Father he said so what he, what he worked for his brother, Frederick and he told his brother about his wife and child leaving to help the father likely he didn't know for sure, but anyway, in any one slash two expected you say a telegram when he got home, but there wasn't so tell us. What who Frank Hog is in his living arrangements and tell us a little bit about what he does later when she hasn't still heard from his way.

So Frank is, as you said, this thirty one year old porter. He moves furniture, and he works for his brother, who older brother and yeah the deal was that he knew that Phoebe's father had been quite ill and what sort of on again off again well and then unwell, and so when he got home that night he says he got home at about one thousand o'clock. That night and his wife wasn't there, and he did- I think a whole lot about it because they had this arrangement that, if, for some reason she he wasn't home- that she had probably gone to Charlie would be either to nurse her father or because her father had died and she had taken the baby tiggy, which was the Chai nickname, and they had gone on to make preparations morning and and the funeral.

And there's a little bit of conflict in Frank's testimony. On the one hand he says I got home, she wasn't home. I really wasn't that concerned about it, because we had this prior arrangement, but then later he changes his testimony, and says actually, as the night war on I I was so worried about it. I was so concerned that I hadn't heard from her that I slept in my clothes that night in one part the trial. He says. I really expected to hear from her to get some word from her, but then later during trial. It brought to light that he did have word from her that there was actually a note that she left for him. That said, looks numbers in the pan feed yourself. I won't be long so there's a lot of conflict surrounding Frank hardy and his involved. Moment in the crime, how much he knew how much he encourage.

Or whether he was as he presented himself to be throughout trial. This really in bystander. But all of that to say what we do know about Frank Hogg is that he was definitively married to Phoebe and having an affair with another woman, and that other woman is where He went the night his wife went missing and I think that's one of the interesting thing to remember here is he comes home. He perhaps sees the note his wife saying, eat some dinner, won't be long. He sees an Community that that he decides to take a a job, and so he tools down the street to his mistresses house and find that she's not home either and then supposedly comes back to his house, and it grows more concern

and and and goes to sleep if we've been as close and so on and so forth. Next morning he wakes up she realizes that. Why still isn't home, he doesn't have any word from her, and so then I think that he does become a bit more aggrieved in turned about where she may or may not be an he inquired with his sister, his older sister who's, a spinster and his mother, who is a widow and they live in the same flat. On a different floor, and he said As you know, hey did you see Phoebe and the baby, and you know his his sister says yeah I saw yeah today afternoon. You know she left. She took the baby in a carriage, they went for a walk, they were walking in the direct

Priory street. Now, the last that the that anybody at the hall of presidents had seen Phoebe you're taking you go back to inspector banister, then the mortuary and what did they find there and what does he do as a result of those what he finds and how did you conduct interviews after that? What's the what's his order. Yeah so after Frank realises or pretty needs to realize that his wife is legitimately lost, he mounts something of a search, so he is dispatched Toot really. Would he decides that he's going to take the train to truly would wear parents lives and see if she's there, and he meanwhile sends who sister Clara to visit family friends named MRS Pierce

and MRS Percy lives. Just a few minutes. Walk ten minutes, walk down on Pryor Street in Kentish town, Kentish, town in Camden, town but one another there's sort of contiguous to one another, and so Klara does that she she walks down to Priory ST she knocks on MRS Percy door. She says: hey have you seen TB, Miss Percy, says no. I haven't they're very worried together and they decided that they going to go to the they're going to go to the mortuary. They read a bunch of newspapers in between here this time that that tips them off that this woman has been found and from the description everybody starts to to think gosh. Could it be for Phoebe? Well, it might actually be, and so they're going

go to the mortuary, to identify either their friend and sister in law's body, or to confirm that no, it's not Phoebe and so they go to the mortuary about middle of the morning. One thousand and eleven o'clock and inspector banisters there he's leading it now. He is assisted by the chief constable for the criminal investigation division as well, sir. Melville not and they They go in and Doctor Thomas Bond who's. The divisionals vision for Schottland Yard had recently arrived at the mortuary and he hadn't start having quite started the autopsy yet so Klara an this is Percy or ushered into the autopsy room and doctor bond draws back to the sheet covering the dead. Woman's body,

the and the body is so dirty and disfigured and disheveled that Clara can't actually recognize her. She recognizes her clothes, and so she suspects that it's her sister in law, but by looking at her she is so disfigured. She actually cannot recognize her. So however, starts to act quite hysterical and hysterical, and she slaps clears hand as she tries to reach out in touch her sister in law, she's quite Panicky shoes, breathless, she's, hyperventilating she's, just really acting very traumatized and kind of strange, an inspector bannister. You know starts to get a little annoyed with with her histrionics and asks Sheehan cleared to leave the room.

And then directs doctor bond to clean up the woman's face. Inspector banister usher, two women back inside after You know lately admonishing MRS Pear seeds. You calm and and pull it together essentially, and at that point, when her face is cool And then some of her hair is sort of pushed back in come through a little bit bit clearer said definitively. That's absolutely her! That's my sister in law that that's Phoebe, and so the body is positively identified as Phoebe Hand, slope hog, I'm sorry, Phoebe Hog and and the two women leave to go to another

divisional police station to identify the pram and of course they do this, hoping that the baby is still alive right. You talk about superintended beard and Mcnaughton had to interview Frank Hog in his mother, Maria and but there's a young woman named Elizabeth Styles, and that's Fo B's maiden name styles. He she wanted to talk to Mcnaughton alone, or what did she say to Mcnaughton about her aunt yeah. So you know, while these two women are moving on to a different police station, to identify the pram and the contents in the pram and hopefully find the baby, Mick Naughton sends a few other of his men to the hog residents to interview? Frank now is back from Charlie. Would an old MRS hog?

or mother hog. As she is affectionately referred to Ann. And as there Mcnaughton is not stepping out from the police station. This young woman, smartly dressed intelligent sounding woman, ask to speak with him alone and tell Mcnew button a rather tawdry story. She basically says: look I'm the nice is the murdered woman and I can tell you who did it. It was MRS Percy, and so when Mcnaughton and beard and some of the other constables get back to the Hog house, they searched the hog house and then they kind of wait. They wait until Klara and MRS Piercy also return to the hot house, and now we have the whole cast of actors

and whether that was intentional and sort of smartly put together by Mcnaughton or was just a happy coincidence who knows, but he in his autobiography paints. This picture of of all of the potential actors now being to get there in this house, which is being searched and upstairs the neighbor uh is being interviewed and items are being collected and covered their being gone through and nobody we really find anything Frank Hogg, is sort of acting equally histrionic. You know he's throwing who down on the couch and the chair. You won't move and he won't speak and then he'll Bob he's acting a little bit petulant, they can't find anything. You know nobody else is saying anything and, and they can't find anything in the house and and everything would would lead one and to believe that if there was a crime committed again

baby, it wasn't committed in the hog home one of the inspectors. Ask inspector barrister asks Frank to search his person and he find VON him a set of latch keys and play trial, the last keys in the different parts of the house and every keyhole, the team that it our mock, or vice versa, except one and so inspector banister says well. What is the key to Anne Frank is caught. He has to admit at that moment in front of all of these police and his mother, and his sister and his lover that he and and and free Percy are are lovers, and so now, Bannister and Mcnaughton believe quite strongly that there is some connection between these two

families between these two homes and now between these two sites of crime, and they want to talk with Clara and Frank and Mary down at the police station straight away We can use this as an opportunity to stop for a second to talk about our sponsor H. I M S. Hymns sexual performance issues are more common than you think a. Why do guys turn to weird solutions or do nothing when they can instead turned to medicine and science? The solution for him dot com, a one, stop shop for hair loss, sexual wellness and skin care for men. Hymns connects you with real doctors and medical grade solutions to treat ed,

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that's f, o r h, I M s: dot com, slash, murdered, murder ET for h, I M s: dot com, slash, murdered, murder Et H, I M S for men now we have quite a bit of progress with this case, with the incredible fact that they find this key. It's that reveals so much with his key that now that's a surprise. Did his mother, maybe a surprise to his sister, tell us what detective Bannister and the other officers do with this information. And how do we proceed in questioning those involved, especially Frank COG, in Clara and Mississauga? So they they take. Banister takes Clara and Frank to the police station and he takes me in person to the play

station too, but he separates them. So it's it's Clara and Frank are in one room and there being interviewed, and then MRS Period- is being interviewed separately and, of course, we have to assume that Bannister is well aware of the information that Mcnaughton was given by Elizabeth Styles, suggesting that MRS Piercy. Had a greater role in this crime and people might have previously thought. We have to also consider that, at this point, Bannister has seen MRS Piercy's reaction to the bar and this used to be and I I mean way back, but there used to be this sort of detective tool called the tree well by ordeal, and it used to be thought that if a body bled when the perpetrator or the murderer got close to it, that that was a sign of of that person guilt

later on, this was a detective technique that was used to basically psychologically intimidate a perpetrator, into confessing and Mcnaughton, even wrote in his memoir that he thought that it might have been the last trial by ordeal that he ever solved. Meaning that MRS Percy's reaction in the mortuary to seeing Phoebe hogs body was so intense that it suggested her guilt. So all of those pieces are clues take and together gave banister a pretty solid hunch or a pretty solid lead that you know things were not quite right, and that perhaps his supposition that this murder was

Added by a man wasn't wasn't true, so he sent some some constables to MRS perceives flat. He after he said you know, would you have a problem with me, searching your lodging and weirdly. She says: oh no, not in the slightest and she handed him her set of keys, and so these two constables go and they searched the flat and it first they can't really find anything they start the front room, they searched the parlor, they searched the bedroom, nothing is a mess and then they searched the kitchen and in the kitchen they find all kinds of blood stain. They find a rug, a hearth, rug in front of the fireplace that seems to have been washed with paraffin, which was

victorian kind of stain remover at the time they they. You know, there's blood on the ceiling. They find a poker and it looks like there are some human hairs wedged into the crevice. It also looks like the end of it have some some blood on it and then they go and they search the other rooms much more clue this. So they find under her. Under her. Wardrobe. A bonnet box Oh I'm, sorry under her bed, a bonnet box and inside the box is a single card like a business card and the words Sh Hager printed on it and there's this sort of weird shrine that looks to be You know dedicated to or in memory of her love affair with Frank Hog. So there are copies of dozens of love

There are bullets that fit a vulvar, and then the unloaded revolver. There are pages of a burned novel in the great There are knives that are very sharp that seemed to be sort of tucked away, so the police do a pretty thorough search. And what I'm trying to suggest is that in that search they find circle. And, although it may be, they find a lot of evidence that would suggest that something terrible happened in the kitchen at two Priory ST. Which of course, are the rented flat room for MRS Percy, and so they telegraph back to inspector ban. Easter and they say look. I think you need to come at once you're going to be really interested in what you find here and based on the overwhelming blood evidence found at the scene. Bannister decides to arrest MRS Pair

for for the murder of Phoebe Hog and perhaps even the child. As well. Although the initial indictment is only for Phoebe hot. Right away, he also is inspector banisters wants to interview a MRS Pierce, these neighbors, and talk about Sarah Butler in her huh and also Elizabeth Crowhurst and her son. What do each of those neighbors have to say about that evening? The neighbors also suggest rather damning evidence You know Elizabeth or Sarah Butler Rather and her husband yeah that there was a prim that was sort of wedged in between this very narrow, hallway downstairs and when Butler's husband came home MRS is had to go

I'd him around it. When she came home she she was guided around it and later, of course, when she, when Sarah learns that You know a child and her mother were possibly murdered and conveyed in that pram. She makes the connection rather ghastly connection of my God, she must have been ushering me around this PAM, so that I didn't accidentally up against it and get blood on myself and that she would have been found out and then the other two neighbors miss Crowhurst and her son. They suggest things about. Are they talk about MRS Percy's comings and goings about the rotation of men that seemed to come in and out of two priority. St and some and they they say? Look. We know that Percy told us that this particular

the older gentleman with her father and that Frank Hogg was her husband. But you know there see to be other men, we're not quite sure if anybody's identity, all we know is that there's this set schedule, and on Sunday is one man and on other days it's another man, and it just seems like the kind of men that she's bringing through the flat are. You know a bit suspect and perhaps Herbie hey easier to is suspicious. They also say that they saw somebody with a lamp walking through the flat around one thousand o'clock at night and of course, we know from later testimony that that person was frank. Hog. Frank says, of course, that he didn't see anything didn't smell anything, didn't hear anything, nothing looked out of place and he other than note down saying you know name at one thousand and fifteen can't stay the longer you know I'll meet up with

later, so this evidence really makes this. Cast of actors. You know it really pulls the through line between this cast of actors. Where now you know you have You have the murder scene pretty definitively, and then you have you know this affair- that taking place. It seems like MRS Jersey is maybe a kept woman as well like somebody supporting her, and it seems like she's trading sex for that support, but yet she's positioning, Frank, her husband and telling her neighbors that that Phoebe is just a good friend and that Frank and Phoebe's daughter to he is actually hurt me. You know there it's starting to Will, become really apparent to inspector banister that now not all, is, as it scene between Frank

and Phoebe and MRS cursing to add confusion to this and mystery. There's a telegram that arrives addressed to MRS. Here's the and with no return address or name. So what does this telegram contain and what the police conclude if anything yeah, so the the tell Graham arrives, and it basically says office surrounded at ok, then you know seek protection, get help, and it's this very mysterious telegram with no return address its postmarked from in the Gravesend area, but that's it. That's the only identifying information, I believe that it was fine with a c as well, but that's it, and so you know that

please don't really know what to do with it. In the end, inspector Bannister decides to send uh another constable or investigator, two grades in to try to track down through the postal system where this came from, who purchased it when it was sent, and that investigator is successful in finding the author of that telegram You see this in the inquest which starts on October 27th. So, four days after three days after crime and it turns out that that telegram was sent by a man named Charles Crichton or Cry I'm not I'm unsure about the exact pronunciation and that this travel crate and ends up being one of Mary's lovers and perhaps perhaps her keeper. In the man who in exchange

change for companionship or sex, we don't know buys her. Things keeps her in her flat pays for some kind of stipend. You have also that the please speak to to Frank's, landlady and This is her name is broad and what is she? say about his whereabouts that evening, according to her. Yeah so um. Mrs Broad says that it does a lot of really interesting things that you know Frank was At home- and she also tells investigators Even though MRS Old, MRS Haag Maria Hogg, suggests that the relationship between and Frank and Phoebe was pleasant, loving and

amicable that actually, they fought quite a bit and that the relationship between Frank and his wife was you know- I see at best, but she would not describe it in nearly such glowing terms of his mother described their relationship right. You talk about October, 26th, nineteen or a part, may one thousand eight hundred and ninety the media dubs this the Hampstead tragedy and still the baby is not found, but the press is circulating descriptions of the baby. Who is eighteen months. You talk about the next day the Hawker named Oliver Smith, find share. Tell us a little bit about that discovery, yeah, so um on that day, ok, a hawker meaning a person who

made his living by talking thing selling things. Something like a person that would take things to a pawn shop here in the states, He is either watering his horses or walking through some of the accounts vary, but but this man, Oliver Smith, is walking through this pasture, and you know much like summer, Lid Mcdonald, he see something out of the corner of his eye in this field. That just doesn't quite look right and, as he approaches the the object, he realizes that it's this eighteen month, old, baby girl and she she's dead. So he of course, immediately tries to go, find a police constable and does, and they they take the baby back to,

to a different mortuary where an autopsy is conducted. You know, there's a doctor, John Mondi Bags, who arrived at the scene with the the constable that also shows that and determines that that the baby piggy is in fact dead and then, after that, they take her back to have an autopsy and doctor Joseph Augustus, pepper, performed at autopsy. He was also the divisional surgeon that performed the baby's mother's autopsy, so Phoebe's autopsy and he basically finds that you know now thing is- is out of order with this child. He is actually a little bit confused about how the baby died. It seems that she suffered some injuries the brain, some congestion. He called it to the lungs into the brain, especially that make it

look like make it look like smothering or rather strangulation, but there are no strangulation marks around the baby's neck. So he thinks that if she was string, but it was more of a smothering- you know the murderer- put a pillow, perhaps on the baby's chest and stuff, the baby that way, but the baby could have also died of exposure It wasn't particularly cold that night, but you know the infant child exposed to the elements. It was around fifty degrees most of the evening, it's possible, particularly if she already had you know a weakened immune system or if she had suffered some sort of trauma: before him right. You talk about that soon or later

today you say that John Charles Piercy comes forward and talks about his years with with her. What what does he say in how surprising is what he has to say yeah, so the plot thickens, just for the inquest. Of course, we have to remember that by this time this is a cause Salleb and that the media, because the media has been integral trouble and investigating the case and helpful and investigating the case and circulating descriptions of the babies body of the baby and of the the murder, victim, they're, working very closely with police. They. You know an inline into information, and- and they are printing, multiple stories about this case. In morning and evening and afternoon editions in some cases- and this is this- information- is circulating far and wide because again

Nobody really knows yet about Mary, so so the public by and large, still sort of things that it's possible that this may be the work of Jack, the ripper and the public. Is you know, investigators or fissioning the public to please come forward with any information related to the case, and this man named John Charles Percy, the Kentish town police station, to do just that. He. He had lived with Mary as husband and wife, even though legally they were never married. They never took bands and his information becomes really critical later in the inquest, because he's able to put to rest a few discrepancies in court testimony about missing.

Gold rings and the cardigan that was found, laying atop Phoebe's face and so on and so forth. He's also able to piece together Some of Mary earlier at eleven and late teen and an early adulthood life, and he helps to fill in some of these cycle. Magical gaps that we have you know as we're trying as police are trying to create this psychological profile of this murderous. His relationship to Mary becomes very important because he's the first person to tell Freak Palmer Mary's eventual solicitor some of the other investigators that Mary suffered severe severe epilepsy among us

where dysfunction then, and mental disorders. You talk about also epilepsy, in what it was. It was considered at that time. Tell us what you found and about what people thought about epilepsy. Yeah epilepsy was a really difficult disease he's too and your as a person in a victorian era person for a couple of reasons. The first reason is because, if you were at the lab tech- and you were so severely epileptic that you hot you couldn't quote unquote, you know fun. Mission in polite society. Then you were very often remanded to mental institutions or asylum. These asylums were not fun. They were not great places to be

for a long time. The way that you know early psychiatrist and psychologist an and treated epilepsy was with it wasn't until much much later in the victorian period that epilepsy was was seen as something that perhaps could be treated more humanely with. You know, diet and exercise and You know care and and conditioning and of course medically at the let's see, yeah the the treatments. The medical treatments for epilepsy Will there weren't any there were there were prescriptions that were offered to to ease pain of an epileptic episode thereafter so for headache, is an example that often linger after an epileptic seizure, but

but there really weren't any significant treatment. That were available to epileptics at this time and because of the this sort of literary legacy of epilepsy as being in a demon possessed athletics were often in you know, greek mythology and greek literature, but, but also during saying spirit time and writing, and you know well into the victorian era, not not much was known about epilepsy, because the brain was still. This really mysterious place an uncharted, and so many people in Victorian Soci a attributed epilepsy, to either sort of lack of internal discipline or possession by the devil and epileptics, of course, were treated very unfairly and very poorly as

the result of that misperception did you talk about the inquest and then you talk about basic. What we would call in America lemon and then finally, the trial, but each one of those court appearances had most of the cast of characters in there that are important to the story, and you talk about quickly. There's a judge cook and the first witness is Frank Hog and he's testifying. What does his test? What's a characterized by an what kinds of questions do they ask him? What kind of information is revealed in that testimony? Yeah? So.

Well, I guess one of the things that's really important to understand as we move into the inquest and and the trial at the central criminal court which, to your point, this section of the book. The legal section of the book is somewhat repetitive in that when, when we meet the cast of characters of the in class, we see the same cast of characters later at the old Bailey. Testimony does change from from one character to the net In some in some way, but the real meat of these of these legal maneuverings, an argument don't have open until the trial at the old Bailey later in the book, so the in class during the inquest, the the point of the inquest, is to simply determine who the victims of crime were and whether or not they died.

You know of their own. Naturally, how say of their own accord, but of course they would have done that, but whether they died naturally or Unnaturally vis, a vis, murder and one of the things that is really important for readers to remember is that marry is indicted at this point or is about to face in quest. It meets her her solicitor freak Palmer for the very first time at this juncture, and he her did you do it. What was your involvement in this? What can you tell me about this, and she says that moment. And it every other moment during the inquest during the trial and then, of course, during her execution that she knows absolutely nothing about it and she sticks to that. So she's brought before William Major Cook

who takes the bench and asks for the prisoner to be brought into the courtroom and she's led into the anteroom room, and she stands in front of everybody in in these, you know very old clothes. You've got the shabby shaalan. She looks very beggarly actually, which was not really a fair characterization who she was or the position and society that she held and interestingly, she was very irritated by this later and before she appeared in court again. For a second time, she asked her solicitor to please secure her, some clothes that were more befitting her station and what's interesting about her request is that she's very aware of her public persona and she was acutely aware she's, a very intelligent woman. Should

quite acutely aware of her chances at exoneration if she presented herself, as perhaps better than she was, and three Palmer did in fact secure her better clothes and that did change. The public perception to some degree, but lots of people who are called during the inquest have really interesting things to say, of course, Frank is the first witness it's called and he's sobbing again so heavily, so that that people in audience can't really even hear what he's saying and He doesn't say anything about the affair. He, answers questions very. We inspector Bannister is called the the corner, of course, is

is preparing all of this evidence for the following day when the inquest happened and I'm sort of it. It is very you're kind of preliminary magisterial hearing preparation for the inquest, which is really what kicks off the the theory of of judicial remand. Zan, you know trials thereafter. You talk about that. That there always was from Freak Palmer. He questioned Mary, piercy about her her guilt, but also that the idea that there was an accomplice was praying on his mind. So what does he ask her in terms of the accomplice, and does he ask her? If Frank is this accomplish? What does he ask her in terms of who might have been her accomplice in this yeah? Well, you know just as

Just as it is now went whenever you ask an investigator or if you're, an investigator pretty common practice to look to those who are most intimate around. You I suspect. So when there's a murder like this, the most obvious suspects would be those that were closest to the victim and in fact the banister. I thought the same thing so from the beginning, inspector banister was was quite concerned. He was very troubled by this idea that away men of Mary's strength and size. You know she was set. She was She was taller than average. She was quite fit and seemed capable and strong, but even so he was very troubled by the idea. That she could have done this alone, that she could have.

You know blood. This woman to death in the afternoon nearly severed her had packed her dead weight, body into a pram murdered the child pack, the pram, with both the bodies and some sort of be able to cover what it was hiding and then wield that pram, a cross rocky uneven, cobblestone miles to London. He does now today. He does that Look, I there's just no way. I really don't think that she could have done it and Freak Palmer. Her solicitor said the same thing. Not only did he think that she was physically incapable of having executed this crime and the disposal of the bodies, particularly by herself, but he who knew her psychology. Better than anyone else during the inquest or anyone else during the crew trial. Knowing her psychology, she just didn't think that she had it in her

He believed that she suffered epilepsy. Mental illness and. There may have been some combination of those two factors. That that made her You know give her some sort of like diminished possibility. But he just didn't think that she could have executed this alone and always thought that it was Frank Hog who either coerced her into murdering his wife, because he didn't get on you're very well. He was uh, made by her presidents. Frequently it meant less time to be with his lover he didn't want to marry Phoebe to begin with, and he re He didn't want to work very hard to support a wife and child. So read Palmer always believed that Frank's involvement in the crime might have been as just coercion or

as a as a physical accomplice in helping Mary to dispose of the bodies this idea of an accomplice was was very pop. It was talked about repeatedly in the past. It a long time, in fact, before inspector banister, finally relented and said: look she did it by herself and not that the press, This was really unwilling to give up this idea of an accomplice and even during the central criminal court case at the old Bailey, her final trial, even Judge Denman, who tried that case, left it open to speculation that there was potentially an accomplice and that accomplice was most likely. Is it with anyone, Frank Hog, you talk about by the time to get the old Bailey the trial that the this is an incredible credibly, big, an interesting case to the press and to the public.

So you talk about all through this, the reaction from the public and from the media. Let's talk about the trial itself and the reaction of the media and all the players that are involved in this especially frank, Hog, yeah, so the the trial was just sensational. You know it was being reported about again in newspapers as far away as North Carolina where I am presently it was. It was that it was reported in multiple. You know across multiple continents, Mexico's Spain there were there were there were coverage far and wide. There were many famous people who were attending the trial, It was something of a the theater. It was legal theater

and there were counts, and this Conson and you know, deputy sheriffs and just a whole cast of London glitterati who were showing up for this trial. But I think that the biggest representation, of the biggest waited to think about like quantifying. How significant this trial in this case was, is that Herve Assaje, Mary Perseis, Visaa Rge, her likeness, was thrown up with created very quickly and put into the chamber of horrors. It was Madam Tuso's main attraction. I mean you go to London now and there's still manages those chamber in a chamber of horrors is there and that Pablo remain until

I believe it was the late 1970s and that really kind of quantify's how imp This was how destruct the public, imagination. You know a female. Murderous, murdering like a man to use a terrible phrase that was used a lot, Couldn't really wrap their heads around and and they wanted to see what this, what this woman looked like know there there there was a lot of publicity around her or a lot of reported you around the way that she, because people were as undone by the fact that she was pretty. She had beautiful blue eyes. She had you know long curly, reddish brown, hair. Her mother was irish,

Her father was irish, so she had a beautiful red blend to her her. You know she had shapely hands. She had a terrible set of teeth for which she became quite famous, and I think they probably exaggerated those teeth a bit in the chamber of horrors, but she their badmouth a bad set of teeth, but otherwise was a very attractive woman by victorian standards and the the media just gazed at her during the trial you know they really objectified her during the trial because they had they just haven't, seen anything like her before it was very. Very unusual for a woman to murder, her lover, legitimate wife and child. Typically speaking of a crime like that happened, it was the man who perpetrated that, and it was the man. Killing the wife lover, but almost met

Is it the other way around, and certainly to that point at least as noted in the old Bailey records, I couldn't find a single incident of a crime of allow triangle quite like this? Having ever been perpetrated So the media was, you know, just a Gog over Mary Percy and the day that the Madame Trousseau's wax work gallery opened, the exhibit the new exhibit in the chamber of horrors. Thirty thousand people lined up around seven hundred block and cute in, and there was one report from the the archives. That said, it was three or four people, just you know, elbow to elbow trying to get their way in and that some of the customers were pretty upset because they didn't feel, they had enough time to look at the

the the tableau and, of course the tableau itself was really interesting too, because Madam Tuso was a genius, this woman and she had had a barber, and shave off Frank Hogg Beard. Symbol of of masculine virility and and put it on his wax, the the actual his actual beard she had acquired. She had purchased several of the items related to the case, so she had. The bassinet perambulator. She had the wax toffee and she had both. You know the wax replica representation of MRS Piercy and Frank Hog and Phoebe You know there were there were several things about she had acquired her Miss Piercey's piano several of the screen,

things that she had had in her house. She had completely replicated the crime scene, the the and so this was a really fascinating Moma. For a lot of people who had never seen murderous quite like that. In living color, and so, if, if the public couldn't make it to the trial, which of course most of them couldn't, then they could still be a part of the case. By reading these daily reports in the newspapers and, of course, visiting Madame Tussaud's waxworks, you chronicle all of the trials and all of the testimony and Needless to say, we have enough time to go into where we all maybe about halfway through this story, but in terms of she lost the case, and then there was appeals, be this is a death penalty and was she faced execution. So there was an expert death penalty expert at that time. That came forward that forward to publish books about not agree

with the death sentence, so this became the in an even more. It is an interesting case for the public, but we didn't talk about the death wish or part made, not the death w the dying wish from from Mary And- and so we had mentioned this note once upon a time. This mysterious note when we talked about beginning of this interview, so tell us about this. What was the dying wish that she said to her her solicitor. Keep in mind, of course, as we talked about earlier at no point during her ordeal, and it really wasn't ordeal, did she confess? Did she give an explanation in, or did she name an accomplice or point her finger at Frank? Hagan fact

absolutely everything that she could to convince law enforcement that he had nothing to do with it. Even to the point that that as she awaited execution, you know hours before the day before and hours before her execution. She had desperately wanted to see her lover, Frank Hog and think about the amount of psychological and physical comfort that it would have brought this woman who was about to be put to death? You know to for him to have come to visit her, and he rejected that. In fact, he wasn't there for the sentence thing he left two days before I'm sorry the day before sentence thing and was never seen again, so he he not only disappears from physical history. He disappeared from all of his We don't know where Frank Hogg goes, but my suspicion is that the trial was so sensational that he would have had to-

changed his name and probably went to live with relatives somewhere. Either in another country, perhaps Australia, or up in and you know the northern part of England, but regardless he rejects her proposition for him to come visit her and she makes she writes this letter to his sister saying look, Frank had absolutely nothing to do with it. I can't really tell you any anymore about it, but but Frank really had nothing to do with it. Her solicitor freak Palmer also employs her to please tell him anything. I can help him exonerate her or at least commute the sentence because he did have the ear of of the secretary who, who could potentially recommend to the queen a computation, and remember, Mary was very young. She was twenty four years old at that time. Even a life sentence in Britain would

typically no more than twenty years so she have been. You know, still a woman who could have had a a rather long life after serving her sentence. She says no, I'm not going to talk about it, I'm not going to I'm not going to save myself, but I don't anything to Befal, Frank Hog. And then, as her last request, she says to Freak Palmer, Hearse Alisa There look. I have one thing that I really need you to do for me before I'm put to death, and that is to take an advertisement out in all of the papers, that would be read in Madrid. I want that that advertisement to say, M e c, P, hyphen last wish and m e W have not betrayed, and he did he published four days after her execution of

a small that small excerpt and nobody knows who it was. But in two nobody knows what the message actually meant Palmer had inquired asked whether or not it had anything to do with the case. Mary insisted that it didn't. He asked she did say that it had to do with a secret marriage early in her life, but Palmer looked through the bands which the records of marriage and christening and birth and death, and found no record of her ever having been legally legitimately married to anyone Ann he just sort of chalked it up to another sample of of the way that she had been mistreated and deceived by

well in her life and- and you know, in the middle part of the book, there's a chapter that that talks about that history and talks about the psychological effect of that long term. Abuse it is a very haunting and chilling Lastra, quest, and it's been a mystery that has yet to be solved. You also talk about that. Her freak Palmer had suggested that they argue for manslaughter. Considering the changing climate towards the death penalty itself, and that considering that she was a woman and there seem to be some sympathy towards her, he advised her to argue manslaughter. But she would not have anything to do with that which she yeah that's right. So there there was a lot of support in the public. There are you know, the abolitionist movement was pretty strong at this point

and he Freak had hired the most now whether or not he was the most reputable that that you know up to the read I should decide, but certainly the most famous alienist at the time inform the wind blow and forwards launched a public campaign to try to to argue for at least diminished capacity, which would have resulted in or they have given her legal team. The ability to maneuver or to suggest a defensive manslaughter, and she wouldn't have it. You know freak had had argued that early in the case, or rather had suggested that early in the case, and she just would never entertain it. She maintained both her innocence and her sanity her utter and complete sanity until the absolute bitter end. You talk about

when we missed so much about the the life of Phoebe to explain how she got herself in this position, and we do talk about in the book that he be a toll, people that she was an including her mother on the Sunday previous that she was afraid and that in I don't know what the chalk it up to. But the mother Charlotte regretted that she didn't let her daughter's say when she asked for help- and you also talk about this very heart. Wrenching part of it, where her mother visits her just prior to the execution the days following or to taste prior and tries to get her daughter to reveal the truth about this. But. She would not witchy, no, I mean you know one of the things that many people admired about Merry Percy and- and I think one of the reasons why she sort of stuck in our minds historically and it's still sort of salient and interesting, is because she became something of a folk hero.

You know which is really problematic because we don't want to idealize murderous is right or murderers, but but her but her character. There there was a lot in her character that was admirable and that was worth unpacking and and fully realizing and fully writing an maybe even appreciating and one of those characteristics of her personality that admirable was with her loyalty there. Several examples during her childhood that I write about in the book that demonstrates her just absolutely unflinching. Loyalty and devotion to the people to whom she was committed. She was very clearly committed to her mother. She is very clearly committed You Frank log, perhaps into death.

Who is the kind of woman who, if you told the secret to she, told no one. She was a good secret keeper. She kept her own secret. She kept the secrets of others if she committed to doing something she saw it through if she promised not to tell she never did, and there is something admirable about that. I think there's something ignorant about it to their. It's sad to me that she was mistreated and betrayed and I I don't quite understand how this person could be so loyal and yet not commanded the same kind of loyalty in return from those two. You know that she gave that gift to that makes a really interesting and and it it it's it, and it makes a very complicated and the the

it's about. The relationship with her mother were really important to me to write to harvest from history into right, because it helped make Mary so much more than just a murderer. I hope that it helps too personalized her to make her a full. He Human being, because this is the Hampstead tragedy and it is a tragedy in the classic greek sense of the term and it's a tragedy for the victim and the victims' family and their loss, and it's a tragedy for Mary Ann and the law, to her mother and to her sisters into her brothers and it's a loss to Frank Hog. No, we don't really know what happened to him, but certainly his life was irreparably changed, probably not for the better for a very long time,

and that was that was what I wanted to demonstrate in there's more personal aspects like Mary's mother trudging through the snow with add shoes on an being just chilled to the bone when she got there an to the jail. That is, and you know the jailers giving her a blanket and having her sit by the fire. You know the small concession and at Newgate prison that Governor Millman conceive Mary and her mother, so that they can have these last intimate moments, one another. I thought that that harvesting, all of that from history, was really in because it helped tell a more complete story and it's in those moments that we do get to see a character that worthy in parts of admiration and love and and even sympathy and forgiveness yeah. It's incredible. What you do have is in terms of her composure and her behave

here right before the execution. Very again. Pardon me, but very masculine in terms of her approach in that I want to thank you very much. Sarah Beth Hopton for coming on and talking about woman at the devil's door of the extraordinary true story of Mary Pierce Ian Hampstead murders, it definitely is extraordinary. True story for those that might want to look at other work or, if you have a facebook page website, tell us about that. Yeah. So currently, you can purchase the UK addition from mango books or through Amazon, DOT, co dot. Uk the book is being re release in the United States in September of this year from Indiana University Press. So I think you can go to Indiana. University presses web page now and find us there, but if you'd like to be updated or updated about the new book release in the states

You can go to woman at the Devils door, Facebook page so just search on Facebook. Woman double store and it should pop right up. Also Mary Percy dot com is a website that you could visit, which is updated frequently. I thank you very much Serra for coming on and talking about women at the devil's door. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much and you have a great evening. Thank you. So much then you kill good night. When you drive with uber what moves you us? That's? Why we're providing new drivers with a one time, earnings guarantee offer to help them plan ahead? It works, but your first kid so and I'm just trying to plan ahead. I can give them whatever they need. What moves you!

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