You are listening to under the skin election, a special with me, Russell Brand Lindsey, german and doktor professor doktor, professor doktor Brad Evans. in under the skin. We ask what's beneath the surface of people, we admire ideas that define our time, the history that we are told they shall be sponsored by me. Me me and my rebirth through the next couple of shows a sought out. The still something is less and less force Gagner. Fifty four June Bristol twenty four June nor fountain, six grooms Bates Would you like a rustle brand dot com for tickets? If you like me sharply subscribe and review on Itunes or whatever? Is they provide you with your content and give us a few at STAR Review. I've got a very, very fragile

I go and I need you over now to under the skin. The Lindsey German is a british left wing political activist and founding member of the British Anti WAR organization. Stop the war coalition. She is twice This candidate for mayor of London and his co author of the book, a people's history of London, Doktor Brad. Is a reader in political violence at the University of Bristol and director of the histories of violence project he's books include disposable futures, this adoption of violence in an age of the spectacle and port traits of violence and illustrated history. A radical thought. I've got both

books. They are good Linsey. Thank you very much for coming on our show you welcome this is Putting in time wish that there is a the general election eighth of June in the United Kingdom is tomorrow that being a member of the stop the war coalition or found a member of the stop the war coalition, and I suppose that means that you're, not a conservative voter, you guessed it First, I began to see the world, I'm I'm a very big fan of Jeremy Carbon that I hope he does very very well. Tomorrow he was one of the founder members of the stop. The war coalition is well when we first had a big meeting, just after nine eleven, which is where we were formed. He was one of the people who spoke, and I think this election is so important.

in terms of there is a real choice between more warmongering, more killing, all of the things that we ve seen over the last sixty years or a different approach from a labour government, hopefully, which will say we don't want more of these things. There has to be a different answer than just invading more countries bombing more countries, creating all the disruption which is helping to lead an increase in terrorism around the world you ve had so versus seventeen years almost since the foundation of this movement, of which you are one of the founders, do you are you surprised how difficult it is to convey a message. Age of non violence? I'm not surprised because we live in a very militarized society. I think that you ve got a system

well, there's a lot of money goes into the army and the armed forces is a lot of money, goes into arms sales and military production. We sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia, so that sir, a big thing, but I think actually, if you look at it, is a growing number of people who do see that these wars haven't worked. They haven't created the kind of peace that people wanted, and people do want a naked. They can see that if you look at the number of refugees and the biggest number of refugees come from war, torn countries that come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, libya- these are the countries that have suffered so much. They see the instability in these are people who counts and their kids disco when the daily basis, who don't just have a normal life that we try to have in this country, that their lives are disrupted by war. There are still civil wars, continuing and loads of these countries, so I think people have become

more aware of this and one of the good things about the election is. It has brought some of these issues out into the open, and I think again, Jeremy, carbon deserves of credit for having done my history the amazing to watch sport, is an assumption that are making that, based on the way that you pose the answer that question Lindsey people. There are, broadly speaking, Pro Britain having an international profile and an aggressive and militarized foreign policy would also be anti immigration. Those are oddly part of the same narrative. Britain should be a force in global politics. Britain should be pursuing his economic goals aggressively in the Middle EAST, but we don't want no bloody refugees coming over here. Type thing is that we're like yeah- and I think is part of one of the big lies about- was that that kind of cost free? You know it used to be if you look at the first World WAR, with terrible casualties in Britain in France and

in all the european powers. Now, if you look at the wars, are much much less costly in terms of human life in terms of countries like Britain, we use drones. We use also we use bombers that are, you know, mostly. The pilots aren't in immediate danger from those kind of things, but of course, what people don't see very often is what it means on the ground for people in terms of death and injury in terms of refugees in terms of things like depleted uranium, which of course have long term effects on birth defects and all sorts of other things and the refugees. The immigration question. Suddenly that brings at home in Hawaii, which he did a couple of years ago, when you had the big refugees

prices across Europe. This is a crisis is already happening in Jordan in Pakistan in the countries neighbouring the war zones, whether of millions of refugees, but it's only when it comes to Germany, to Austria to ITALY. The people start thinking are hang on a main. You get this real division in terms of the people who want to welcome refugees, which is why I would want to do and the people who say. Oh no, no, we can't have him here without thinking. Maybe it's our responsibility. These people, don't a home to live in our country to live in cipher them? Wars create refugees. Now Briefly Lindsey mentioned that out violence inverted commas, our violence is conducted by drones, is conducted remotely is conducted in a way they seemed palatable. less blood, thirsty and ugly war is

this relationship between rationalism and violence, while all the different types of violence. What is the difference between the kind of violence that we have pole and deplore and readily condemn on a mass public scale, and the kind of violence is more concealed and seen as rational unnecessary? How these? How does this occur? This bifurcation? Well, two points. The first thing I want to talk over EU you mention this. This call to make ourselves great again now what this call to make ourselves great again does is a kind of why literally whitewashes history, it washes history and in a way which kind of tries to remove a great deal of care.

tackle advance and retreat we've kind of achieved over the last fifteen and twenty years in terms of understanding the deep legacies of colonization and the way in which, being great again, a great Britain wasn't great, very grateful the large part of the world citizens so on this or that is that one historical dimension. We need to deal with now. The second question which you talking about, then, is you know when we're dealing with violence will always dealing with the question of mediation and what we mean by that is violence which is justified. The violence, which is unjustified violence, which is tolerable of violence, which is intolerable, and often This is very much the case at the violence which is deemed to be the most tolerable is the one in which encourages the greatest financial investment, so the violence of high tech weaponry or what we might call smart violence, but we know, is not very smart and that investment in the act of killing in itself off designates, what's so called civilised forms of violence versus the more primitive uncivilized under the need. The irony is, of course, the more investment you put into these technologies, the greater

capacity to kill people on an exponential scale, so we kind of court in this ridiculous ethics, situation with them? The more justified the violence is, the more advanced today's, even though the most advanced technology, the more capable we are destroying the planet. We like expensive violence. It feels like a sophisticated, articulate type of violence without blood, no hand or the Andrea fingernails someone press a button in Bonn in Vegas, and then Syria people suffer that's the kind of violence that we like and is interesting that you think they. This election is too slow. The gray about these global issues do these things think it's more about the global issues, and certainly we have had for the last three election we now lived through four elections, where Britain has been formally at war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and so on most of the time, these hasn't been an issue is not really talked about. Any questioning of it is supposed to be a terrible com,

the thing, whereas in reality, people all male looking at and saying well this. This is an issue and, of course, one of the things I tell you when you ve got this high tech warfare? It leads to conifer with a symmetrical warfare, in other words, that people count respond you're late out have an air force. They don't have sophisticated weapons. I dont have always those things which leads to some of the kind of terrorism. In response we ve seen with, I say some with with other groups Taliban. All these are the kind of things as well. What kind of talk not to care? I think you know like life generally speaking, is lobbying you only becomes pertinent. The consequences of war in foreign lands only become pertinent. I think on the suddenly and intensive at determining the outcome of actions. Evidently, if the laws, as you said, the last four elections- we've been at war, no one gives a toss and keep electing the party. So you know the pro war of care, about the consequences when itself is on our shores, as it were on very curious.

about how a narrative can be continually managed so that These disassociated from their consequences top of olives Lindsays been campaigning for seventeen years. They they elect all cycle kicks producing pro war governments peoples. This is why you see the way, as a domestic population c is integral necessary, said to me with violence, why tat we care for at will entire societies first of all, emerge out of a relationship to violence and that violence was colonization and violence has actually become a normalized part of our everyday fabric. In terms of the way we do politics, you look at the sports to mine eleven are all these major. You know of events there are three taught: violence is actually literally business as usual and not since you know there is a great deal of major cultural operators which go into play in into certain political narratives around that did it.

In terms will be strength, leadership. You know the willingness to show your character on the global stage, which still largely revert back actually to very clear, militaristic, tropes, militaristic ideas and Lincoln event. Then, to your question around you know: well what the question of empathy. You know what the The brilliant feminist, Thetis, Judith Butler talks about this extensively. When she talks about which lives in the world do we grieve over and which ones don't regret over. She calls this the power of mourning and you

tell us. We had great deal around a society's relationship to violence about the lives in which its willing to grieve over on the ones in which just get written either. As another statistic, what did he don't even get recorded that Buttercup point that Brad, and especially the injuries, interesting that the image of the drowned little boy in the Mediterranean is anomalous has opposed to ordinary the fact they are all now that particular little boy Dracula. When really it's just that, but that's just a glimpse into something. That's been lies in this thing. The IRA in Morocco and Post posted up awake. They said so it's red at Mon Alcohol at some sort of little schoolboy shall off, but you probably have picked up Ass Papa personality by now I was a bit wet towards the end of this article. I wrote about Corbyn and this election and the most of my praise towards Jeremy Corbyn his integrity in the way he conducted this election and the fact that this is a politician who has lived by his principles:

decades and solve anomalous and extraordinary, in fact that this has happened. Reason, never act with them for very, very long time like we're too into the alcohol was. I must have some faith in humanity, some faith in one another. Some hope that we can build a better society together, rather than borrowing download from the gods. Whoever circle might be propping up hell. We must recognize compassion, kindness and communication as virtuous strength, not headed weakness. What kind of I'm an easy where compassion, kindness and openness can be easily frames weakness because that surely, with some of the war, well, if that's what you're continually confronting the people? No, no! No! No! No! No! Your pass off your way. You bloody, liberals, what utilizing you? How do you come that kind of framing well, the aid they do in a way, which is that if you look at people like Michael fallen and tourism mine, all these pay

they say we very, very brave, because Waken press the button to start a nuclear war. Now, actually, of course, they won't be pressing the button. Anyway, it's not to pay and they re the Americans. If anybody, if anybody does this thing, but this it's, this idea somehow, that's the same thing to do, and the insane thing to do is to not press the button which starts a nuclear war. Anybody who knows anything but nuclear war knows that will destroy whole citys. I mean do we London. There was one bombed, the size of the bombs in nineteen, forty five. It would destroy the whole of Central London from entering down right down to, and ninety percent of people will be dead. That's what you're talking about now. When this point it's terms? People would think. Oh, my god, I don't want that. To happen, I mean most. People would not want that to happen. But of course his paw is not putting these terms in San Antonio and this is horrible climate. Now, particularly

thing, over the last thirty or so years, particularly a hole in the US police and the whole idea that being sensitive being kind being wait just means you gonna get taken, get taken advantage of. If you want to pay people decent wealth, benefits. Somebody's gonna be scrounge. Somebody's gonna be doing something like that. So, as that whole, idea now, but the rich are right to be rich and that we should just let him get richer and we'll get a little bit of benefit from. is the whole idea that you're gonna be tough and aggressive from that? Somehow that will make the world a better place, whereas all the evidence is it make the world a worse place. It's that kind of constant. But you're behaving, as are you some pulling in Bali in a fight in a pop? That's what really it's like an that's kind of been elevated to some kind of support. decades of political fairy, now isn't a sophisticated political. Very it's! The kind of stuff that you get in the sun is the code. Stuff that you get in the worst of the tabloids, but you don't just get in there. Now you get it on loads of

radio stations, and if you look at some of the people who are now hosting radio stations there, not just kind of right wing journalists that people who are politicians were the right wing agenda. who are now given free reign to say whatever they want about Muslims about liberals about left wingers, and this is the case. Well, we live in, and I think that one of the things This election is kind of leading people to think. What is that a good thing? Can we have a different kind of widely yeah. It is good that is on the agenda, because when you the more, I think about it, is rooted in psychology as opposed to politics in a sense because you are talking about live with that kind of knee jerk, If you d overburdened nuke people, your account is solved. All the the conversation and can exist on that level is all that is key: kind of become like Jenga.

and like they are not allowed to say that you must say that if you say that it means this, that being compassionate and circumspect willing to negotiate willing to debate. These things are seen as flaws and weakness is like, but the territory in which political conversation takes place is itself dominant it by a particular type of thinking, type of rhetoric, which favours a four percent The form of power and government now well, do you bypass whatever gatekeepers, and I mean I don't even mean that in terms of media tyranny, I mean that in terms of psychology, how the reach, beyond Pierre all of about a did. I say something after the attack, attacks in Manchester. I think all of us feel a bit of bloody hell Jesus Cross, but its days I'd like you to lead, they wouldn't be so that we can

in a state of perpetual fear, a stay of perpetual anxiety. So these arguments are appealing is rationalism or like a rational argument for peace, irrational arguing for discussing negotiation, a rational argument for not new king from Camden Town to Victoria it. How do we make that reach people in a popular inaccessible way, it requires a different conversation, and you know that there's some there's this phrase that has put for by the the the the Bristol based artist Banksy, and he says those who have those who joyfully wear away flags shouldn't don't deserve to have them. I kind of think the same as with nuclear weapons as those who will consciously say they're willing to use the bomb or the last person who should give the codes too, especially if you know the history of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the devastation that causes now- and I think in terms of you, you're right in terms of what we need to do is change the terms of the debates around the very you know the key terms, courage and leadership when I think

of courage and leadership. I don't think of Truman, I think Martin Luther king. So how can we change that very conversation where, because kind of tombs, are seductive people. People do so well yeah. I want somebody to show courage in politics. I want somebody who show good leadership, but good leadership stunt doesn't necessarily mean a real he taught to violence. When can good leadership actually be that the normal approach would be to have empathy, compassion, dignity that to me, is the hallmarks of good leadership and good courage, and that is what will you do need to than is set the terrains for new conversation? Now you know that this is not something. We have to invent from Finnair that did there's a history of in it The work of the Anti WAR movement has been doing this for decades in terms of trying to push a new conversation, but we can even reach back much further. There was in the old greek language over the concept. Corpora Sayer, which equally meant a courage, the truth or feel a speech which Gandhi kind of

picked up on Gandhi, says the courage to truth is nonviolence its well can we have a conversation which is based on our fellow human humanity. Now what Ghandi was also kind of saying this? In order for you to commit violence, you need to engage in a politics of lies and fabrication I'm not lying fabrication is necessary if you're going to dehumanize another, because you the human is the star point, and then you engage in a process of dehumanization. So what to do we be mindful of the lies. We are sold mindful of the types of militaristic narratives which dominate our debates, but also be mindful. That is a great deal of powerful, nonviolent struggle, which is often written out of the memory of societies, which we actually need to reclaim well and another thing Dad I'm like, I agree that there is, front narrative, but if you think, even in the way that the people in Manchester responded after the attack, which was one of the inner all terrorist attacks of bad, but obviously really was

very, very heart, rending that children and young people have been our constant were were attacked in that kind of white. Actually, I thought the people in Manchester responded tremendously in both in terms of the immediate, where people really help people and brought people into their houses where homeless people at she tended to the injured and people who are quite often despised in this society, because I haven't got any well for any money and and then they had this very, very big vigil where people said this isn't about. Religion is not about Muslims. It's about. You know a small number of people do these sorts of things. I think we should remember that even in these, in a society where violence is all around you and not just military violence. If you think about domestic violence, if you think about all sorts of ways, we live in quite a while The thought, even in terms of things, are the use cause and the number of accidents and under what kind of things the

even in those societies, there is a great human capacity to behave in a cooperative. Why Yes, I believe in this capacity is curious that we instantly recognize it is heroic and Separation, no Father sponsored people of measures that is vigils and compassion and kindness Nava you having are why are they not smashing up a mosque and lie down of kicking people's exit- and you did that, we don't celebrate. We recognise that. That's not the right to do almost like, we have some inherent barometer, but knows somewhere deep within us, even perhaps beneath primal instincts towards vengeance and violence. We know not gonna, work. We should do that like its encoded in us that we have the reach beyond violence to non violence. We have to find it here,

he's all cooperative people that is one of our basic ways of living and its it even with things like hostility to migrants. What they find is that, for example, where migrants come here and metal children go to school and then they threatened with deportation. The usually a very strong campaign in that school to stop the children being deported, because once these kids aren't just of numbers all or anonymous figures, when they real, he means that go to school. With your kids, you trade in a very different way, and I think it's it there is this co operative sense. The resistance that you don't want to do terrible things to other human beings but at the same time there's a lot of forces in society who should a lot better like a lot of the media, like governments like all these people who actually done in that case. Why, and that's the one of the big problems we face her when you go deeper people More compassionate is like almost always sustained a level of

the fear and anxiety we are going to cause. We then, when I don't have to go round, there is no enough jokes to go no bloody elite and will now likely electoral prospects, our culture, if they want to live over like if you keep people in actual panicky jittery state, they won't think properly, but when It will calm down a owner month, kids, friends within them with him be deployed like them out there. Pack, human truths are non violent, but we are kept seeing these truths by being over stimulated and directed into a part of our psyche. There is beneficial people, that up powerful and now an official. They remain over eighty five. If we access that compassion aspect, our nation, they may not be governor, but in the same way as basically what it leads to an end. If you look as well is also about scarcity, when there's not enough houses of people can afford when there's not enough of them. Places when there's not the money going to these things, people are incurred. I to turn on one another, whereas the answer is,

provide more money for houses, make sure it should be a basic human right that everybody has some weight decent to live This is an extraordinarily important, surprising election, because these things are suddenly on the agenda for the first time in a long time, there's politician is talking providing housing talking about wealth redistribution, talking about public, funding what we formerly for others and state institution such as true have all and educational things that have been slowly around didn't put upon the same as saying this guy since canal and QUIET dear since this swashbuckling eightys the idea that people should have homes, education is it in a way that you want you? You know. I know that you, air of expertise, Lindsey, is theirs. war coalition, but the fact that used if America suggest that you have a broader, a broader socialist views That's right, yeah and

and on things like when I wrote the book on London that People London, the the thing tight. For example, housing witches is everybody's. Where is a huge issue in the city and terrible overcrowding which isn't really a let alone homelessness as both of those things going on which aren't really commented on? But this is the first time since the eighteen nineties, so there hasn't been a group of people either in local government or somewhere really thinking about. Where is cheap housing for them, War can come from and suddenly it's all about, building these huge, you know Battersea Power Station and nine elms. All the real luxury flats are all bought as investments. Nobody can live in. That is going to go crash at some point and then we'll probably end up with all sorts of people who should be getting is having to live in these lottery places. People won't be able to by them, and that would be, in my view, a great step forward. This is an extraordinary time is short.

It's happening when I watched the watch all the time to get to consume. television, no matter what the stated content but, like I just saw bits we call this another want to live in a country populated by logging about his own business, with his hatred would like an answer for my God is outrageous common sense is like being stirred from a dream. You know and love I myself have even been sobered tuned to glamour and certain expectations of what a politician Hasta look like now and sound like now, and I think I don't know exams over comparatively young compared to you, too, I mean compared to a long standing, historical narrative, but it seems to be little lighter because I'm a post black person there are so few politicians and many sound so like theirs. and everything's going to be glazed in small and when people talk like a normal bloke who you might meet somewhere in the world, it's just not right. My lawsuit or you can be a politician you're not talking properly so brought precisely way

then politically, but like a lot, but in a way Jeremy Corbyn Nonviolence is integral because he's too and the violence of homelessness, the violence of economic inequality in an international violence. So this is a hugely significant election year. The one thing I found completely refreshing about Jeremy's discourse actually is commitment to social justice and social justice, nor in any reductive, legal, large, chemical, juridical sense, but social justice at the level of people's day to day lives and those in that sense, Athena People's data data lives be divorced from the global political arena. So when wits talking about. You know global warfare and the way in which somebody in a local school might experience racism or bullying these things absolutely linked together. There's no separation between them. So but it wasn't what gentlemen kind of where I found quite refreshing is: we know that

top down hierarchical politics continues to fail us people don't fail us as the examples of Manchester Show. So what we need to do is kind of invert, the logic where we actually start from the bottom up and say: well: ok, what does social justice really mean? And I want to bring this back actually to your article Russell, because one thing which ideally, which I thought you highlighted really well in this- was just we carbon out the option not to respond to the Manchester bombing but he did so, even though he knew the media would behave in a particular way. It took that risk because it was principled whether you agree with this politics are not the ones in which he has done, not only in terms of debate, injustice of the first time you so we are going to election after election, the way where these countries being a war, Khan remembered really seriously. Where you know we had a bum. real broad public debate. Around

It's put violence seriously on trial. I know you know that what was happening with the Anti WAR movement is really trying to do this, but Jeremy's really pushed us to the centre ground and we should really, if anything else, we should applaud him, whatever the outcome of the election, because life goes on after this election, but are we to actually say? Let's take this problem of violence and social justice seriously and put at the centre of politics has to represent a profound shift in the way this country's gonna move forward. Yes is extraordinary. I suppose, because more easy, it is difficult to ignore the ever that this violence hold together the interests of the powerful. So you can, well go near it as a subject, because if you start saying well, why the? Why was this avenues for boys to protect the economic interests, It's organized a lie, as you said very right. At the beginning, we were selling arms off. These countries were selling arms to countries on our own human rights abuses list. You look at

He's got a lot where a lot of that perpetrated violence, coming from aware that they were training camps, all they're all unsettled territories. Now is so interesting the to be like as a Brian said to me that you can't think critically, about these kind of subjects or to publicly that has become a taboo to say, almost makes causing Mason if it to even ask that question is to be there, position as a terrorist sympathiser. I love being seen as a pacifist like these and negative thing how easy, this sum is so heavy stick, so all old and something that should be discarded in not they got in human nature by acknowledged, is potentially problematic, particularly its informing bloody geopolitical movement. How, how is it that we are not? from India. How is it that this is still something weeks back AIDS, because the people who run this

tree do rely, as you say they do rely on a level of violence, whether its violence in terms of war abroad or whether its in terms of their control of society in the and the truth, is if, as a government, that they don't lie in any real serious. Why they will, if necessary, use violence against, as we ve seen in a whole number of countries? Look in Latin America. You look in the home number places where the military will use violence against democracy and against what people's actual Willie. I think it's a very, very big question that they they have an interest in hanging onto this. This kind of way of operating. They have an interest in having a military which is very strong on people looking up to the military and there's a lot of things that makes them with this. If we look, for example, at the world

Family are very closely linked him with the military and always have been and always get. The her majesty have to shoot for bloody socialists in the room before you know it now- and I know people in boiler suit, you're, a big fan of her metal accomplish that if you look old, certainly all the men in her family dress up in uniform for the normalization glamorize ancient deification of militaristic faith, men as the traditional way of how we live and how are we supposed to live with this kind of hierarchy, but they want to accept is a symbol of this is how powerful nationalized power looks. Like is interesting. I suppose. Perhaps we can say that you know like

at the end of color. Colonization is a kind of like missed. It didn't really end it mutated that you can no longer have colonization under a flag. What you can ever under a logo you can go into countries are on the in the interests or in under the auspices of corporate interests. The cards I were doing this for your majesty, but even the colonization was preceded by the EAST, India, tea company or, if I were, to have gone over there ransacking. The joint so are all these have badges and logos whether they are national or corporate under which power protects his interests and pursues his interest. I have to be, I suppose, confront aid, because that's what that violence is ultimately protecting, isn't that was being held together. So it's a haven't a lot. I suppose the reason that jury carbon is incessantly relentlessly pilloried in the media. Populist media media is meant to be, for the Paypal is because the media reason for the people. How could it be

for the people that own the media he's not like into not just run by a bunch of oaks in Watford in the shade the sun, by some easier in Bristol rolling a woodbine these, but billionaires playthings more than playthings tools of oppression, oh, no what we can do bread. Regular answer and have realised this Lindsey working with Brad for a while now Sometimes I stop listening to my own question. While I'm asking a song says: he'll just do something Brad like, even though he can pretty much wander off into a topic and brattle intellectual. I see it and come up with some academic announcement. He might bring food Cohen, Derrida, slings, philosophers around left and right. La bloody convey takes a lot of pressure off of me, but the point of these poor cost and the commission I'm doing something degree I so as in war these and bicycle again with religion in

I yeah that's what I'm doing it's green, I kind of got on one of the very well in the exams. If I cant remember the name of the bloody course right when we did it, one of the things that mob teach our lecturer give us was brats work life Sean or phone should give us some of Brad's work and original. For, oh, my god, it was amazing stuff. So things like how the word terrorism got reduced to the word terror to indicate that it was more significant. Now how the the function of nine eleven, how nine eleven was used as a kind of Monica tomorrow theme. Ok, now we are in a different time. This is not an how is being narrative, allies and used to facilitate certain kinds of policies and certain kinds of thinking and Europe. me. The point of doing this is to so that we don't occupy the rarefied air of academia, but we talk about. This is something that affects normal people's lives, never stop the war coalition. I suppose that big massive great big march, with millions of people went through saying there is no after Iraq WAR were you involved in that was yeah. I was one of the people who organized. That was a good march when it was the biggest march in british history.

Wow, you know we. Nobody knows think it was millions living the police said a million the direction it was closer to two million because we got various. There was an urban geographers service. in point: three million and the flowers there, women, whereas it down and climbing up something causing trouble exactly. It was just absolutely everybody turning out because they thought they could make a difference to it and they could stop the war I mean that is. If we look since then. I, for one reason, Jeremy Corbett became later of the Labour Party is because people were so fed up with the response of politicians to that particular campaign. It wasn't just about the walkers he's been involved in so many campaigns, but I think it was about. This is an authentic voice of anti war. Peace sentiment, an authentic voice of protest, and not just of parliament parliament for thirty one. Thirty four years pop he's also done everything outside I mean you could bumping Jeremy called

anywhere I'm a member going down for a protest at the high court in the strand and on these Jeremy coming out with these big Can you really old kenyan guys who just won their case against the British government over the man, while in the way that the members were treated so badly and were tortured and all sorts of terrible things happened to them back in the fifties. Jeremy there so there's a kind of connection you know and people do identify him with so many causes? Yeah a lot Francesca Martinez was saying the same thing like that. You know you guys are easier, some wet Wednesday, something is there Jeremy Corbyn, I mean he's sort of exactly what you want, but like because politics has become commodified and Cooper eyes that we don't recognize that we don't recognize that the idea that someone's it's got an allotment that makes jam there's a normal blow

that cares about people. That's got principles that you can't distract. I mean. Let me I love the power of God. I'd go mad with, like you know, a like even give me a jot of the stuff and I'd go balmy, but the idea that he's this is a person that lives with integrity that lives in an ordinary house has been doing this thing for for four years and tomorrow. There's an opportunity to vote for a person like that that if this doesn't work out, I don't know when that's going to come round again, although I was right, I think it's a very, very important election. I mean I vote in elections since nineteen seventy and I Can this is one of the most important election of my other yeah yeah? I definitely when was the last a good one amendment, because I do they scorn. it was about very everybody says not in forty five, which is.

I see very well COS Nhs people coming back from the war and the war and not just didn't. I want war, they didn't want what had come before wedding kind of a thirties, poverty, unemployment, all the armor we've done. This warfare can never be less than he wants something better right. You can have a bit less yeah, that's right! That's what they gave him, but even in the sixties, although our Wilson never gets a particularly good press, important raw, for some things, actually the sixty was a tremendous time for laws on all sorts of things. The recall a gender equality about the abortion ACT which It is easier for women, contraception and the end of censorship. In theaters, the end of the death penalty, a whole range of really good, liberal laws that came in then so that was very important as well, and then we, you know that

destroyed and then what we facing now is. Do we want more even worse than factor, which is what this government I mean. The Tories, well off worse than that, show that copyright laws are beginning to be. I was, in fact, I think they will use breaks it to really push down wages even further to give people even less to cut their privatizing the health service in other areas, that is what we facing so is a real big choice. I think this election and now in the middle of all that an advertisement break a? U hiring. Do you know where to post your job to find the best candidates? Of course, you dumped findings Talent can be tough, thankfully within, recruit. Are you can post your job to a hundred plus job sites with just one click known? I can't share click in a lot Sammy Davis, Jr. No and nothing. I want one click. Then there although technology efficiently matches the right people to your job, that's why

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The show Now curious and, curiously, Americans do listen to his podcast hello. There Americans now like those of the the the those that have stuck with it while words like allotment and jam, and I king of being American JAM what the fuck is that man, unlike that, like ACE, is curious that in the last electoral cycle, the United States of America there was the possibility fleetingly that Bernie Sanders might be. The democratic candidate and socialism was once again on the agenda agenda and the NEO Liberal Democrat Pa A said. Nana Nana na we're sticking with a hegemony, we're sticking with a person in a suit obey in the narrative, and this of the liberal narrative will be it's a woman mo we've got woman in a suit last Sunday the uses of comparative there? This is a sort of a similar opportunity. This always almost like a chance for people, want a different kind of politics, actually stand up and be counted. As I look well, I viewed on to it like in the tourism. I, in the way that this that deals going down in like Super God,

there is a corollary between Jeremy Cobain and Bernie Sanders Lightless. I think definitely and with shown in France and with groups like today, Mosen, these new popular. Why do you call them left if men they're all left his movements of different sorts, interesting Lee all very much attract young people as well as all the people of a kind of ve been demoralized and cynical for many years, but who cannot get back involved, but there they ve got lots of sport. My young people, a big problem from tree for Teresa, my if she does when this election is her popularity, co stocks with the fifty year olds, really in anything much younger than that are she's very unpopular, if now that isn't a great future for the Tory Party, whereas these movement, a saying we want something different? We don't want more of this. We don't want more students get into debt. We don't want more. Young people are being

they call for the house. I've gotta pay huge amounts for pensions. They then have to pay for their education. People fed up with it I suppose they simply must be transcendent of what we understand as politics. The kind of the weapon around the time of Blair, in the killing and where I was faking that they later why. This comes to a mind that when Mandelson said that thing yeah we're really comfortable with people getting seriously rich and he was like he was the for our people legal basis that will seriously comfortable with people gain proper rich case. We broadly Polina and no disrespect supervisory pool, but there ain't. No one gave seriously bloody Rachel comfortable in our reports there recently, so in a way went politics moved in the direction that plan and Blair took it in when, when you like, it was decided that you can't be in a position of power and, lest you sheds and commitments unless you sheds and policies, unless you all Molly work for corporate interests,

in a way you report you so because now that kind of rhetoric, that kind of language do you live like talking about social and talking about sharing, took it like this seems lucky's cover like coveting, cobwebs and is run by colleagues

I think, it links more broadly rights. Could Clinton and Blair what kind of this are the outcome of the same kind of the media machine and where politics becomes pure spectacle, it becomes pure spin, its devoid of substance. You can't get. I don't know whether what they stand from one which the next thing, what kind of creeping through suddenly with Bernie Sanders very much with Jeremy curbing proxies Craven, as you did with, which uses authenticity there's no sense that it will. You know whether we agree with his personal, not we know on which side of history they stand and is a clear sign of history, where we believe the weather again whether we agree them are not at least we know the way they will vote on a certain issue in a certain circumstance, and they will stay true to that principle. And here we have to hold people like Blair, certainly accountable only than you know, in terms of this abandonment of principles, but the way in which that abandonment of principle lends itself to a certain corporate taxation militarization, which leads us precisely disastrous wars like Iraq and Afghanistan and so forth, and I find it quite remarkable. I see that you know

for all the attempted assaults on Jeremy carbon? The way which he still manages to be seemingly winning through in terms of authenticity. Every single aspect about his personality has been put under the microscope, and all that seems to be left now is a familiar retreat into various. You know post colonial- if the Cold war security narratives were, on the one hand, is a pacifist, on the other hand, is a terrorist sympathizer. It's almost like they presented him as this junk Janis phrased kind of schizophrenic who doesn't know which way he stands on violence, whereas actually, if you look at his record, it's very clear where he stands on violence, he was one of the first people to say that you needed a political solution to the irish troubles, which is actually leadership and he's also one of the people. Who's constantly said historically no to nuclear warfare, so that is, certainly something in there that sooner that we need to kind of hold onto actually, I dunno I was actually citing your article. Then I did a face at garrison. I'm cleverer than brat now cause I've been doing a podcast. Now, listen to you lot, you've ever written Lindsay like every

fascinated. You been in luck in the world a long while because, like you, led the EU wide feel like an Is it a question of had four while Missus I'm asking I'm asking you this promise of a pool of ignorance that I've never sort out. To examine quite waded out of the east. that some of the old language around socialism fills a bit. I don't know Lucky's off putting the people by that. There has to be some sort of reword in repositioning that you have to accept that we live in times at pre lie I saw market led. I don't mean that you have to abandon the principle, but the way these things at present it seems a bit creaky some well. I think that, obviously, if you look at what happened to the ideas of socialism in terms of the collapse of the Soviet Union and people identified with socialism over other kind of stuff up that led to people signal socialism is bad idea. I think what's happening now. You have to be able to explain socialism in terms what it means to people's real lives. In I mean emotion, or did I mean like last time aware

a bit mobilizing, I think, both I think that people are facing very, very miserable lives in this country. I don't just mean the people really the poorest people in other. Obviously, people are homeless people. Benefits are suffering very, very much, but even people who ve got jobs. Who are the poorest you ve gotta, call gotta house all those sorts of things they working, omg their worried about the kid They are worried about their parents who were going into social care with all the terrible. going on without the moment as a whole? I think, The generational thing, I'm not I'm all this stuff about this conflict between generations, because anybody you don't have to.

left wing to worry about, what's going to happen to you, I hate durations. What about mom many people really don't care what happens to them on a major doesn't make any sense or what happens to your grandchildren. Everybody cares about those things. Yes, my plus there isn't enough generation because pink would be borne all the time. Not please. I re others since I was going to say of tax on me, so I think I'm a little red tax on me. Ok, I think really what's happening is that people are saying. Ok. This is that this should be straightforward. Everybody has a house but he has a job, that we owe it all the time, but people don't think not. Socialism I don't identify the ideology if you like to me as a socialist- that not everybody, obviously most people aren't socialist or not, don't think of themselves the Socialists, the key thing is, can you say to people? You are only going to achieve these things with a much wider transformation of society

Then we ve got a moment. I don't wanna like they were realized. We haven't, I swear, I think it s beyond so socialism and labour in its gave. You Brad showed me this article by is native American. He called himself american indian protest activist fella. He goes he could check this. He goes for us, Marxism, capitalism, just different sides of the same coin. We don't even agree with you. Fearless asian of our society and our culture, you not look. Like a mountaineer Wanna smashed up and making the gravel you you discuss words like progress to everything's gonna be developed industrialized. to let turned into products Reiner something that People I encounter the count fit into this world. They can't buy. They can make it go. They can't get a good job like peddler, consumer law, about people with mental health and addiction issues and also think- and I feel that is because these paradigm, these template, this type of society, is based around work, isn't right for them that we could have culture where thousands of people just middle issue, though asked the work on expect

to work that technology is used to create leisure. The wealthiest Rick is used to create leisure, and redistribution of these are ideas. The tangentially can, socialism. But for me they are spiritual ideas. Ideas suggest a dick type. Is aside this not built solely around manufacture, production and industry, but in fact, the experience of being a human, after so much time down after care, so much about what you're consuming. But why do we all have to work? much as I found the body you know, if you look at what we do is because people might profits. Have I work now. The truth is one of the really lousy maybe some of the nice jobs that people to copy automated that, I when I was at school, they used to say to us back in the sixties. They used to say by the year two thousand, you won't know what to do with your leisure time right now, Actually that should have been how society too,

that all of us may be worked dire, die and the rest of the time you had all sorts of different leisure. Devotees? Doesn't I find this guy? Then it pays actually causing these one idea arouses is absolutely vital to arouse marks. Wobbly was involved in socialism, my many years he had to go to night. I heard about this over the talks about the alienation the mass production produce guy produces. They turn us into cogs in the machine, and I love that thing that Gandhi said that if you are you how you need to have production by the masses, not mass production, that we need tat light you can save. Somehow, as if the unconscious of people is trying to return to craft and folk movement, you see and aesthetics. You see now yearning for individualised bespoken or coffee shop. You see in folk. Are the people don't want mass production anymore Don't want a uniform, homogenized society, but is difficult to express it

was the dominant cultural idea is, as you say, turn people into profit. How do we make money from these people a lot still to go to where it gets to the point? Lindsey? you guys are not. People could work couple of days a week is like you're saying fashion, around and do ass, if not liking, to decide what some people would do, but a lot of people a lot of people would actually do things I buy you done. It never happened. It was told by the Economic committee, but but no I think that if you actually look at what happens with Paypal, What would you do if you only had to work two days we spend time with the kids or paper you loved might develop all the things that inevitably you a younger you might become good. In saying or you might do all sorts of anything you might do. You agree. I think that you want to do that will pay her. It was, and, incidentally you would then care for

People who they need did have mental health problems who did of addiction problems. It will be why why do I want everything corollary? Why do you think if people have more time, has then if you ve, got a wealthy enough society. This producing a lot of things through automation, then you ve, actually call the surplus wealth doesn't go to the Barkley Brothers. Rupert Murdoch. Paypal. It goes to actually putting real resources into helping people who do need whether its physical illness, whether its men millions of people that feel that they need help and also wise outward looking after their Joe coming. Why do we privatized childcare? Why Is it that each individual family has total responsibility? Virtual Why is it that we can have a society? You were a whole, though whole area cares for children? Why would you? against that Brad? You been right stuff down furiously. Don't pretend you haven't, you can say, that's really beautiful. At last Ireland loneliness them,

If you know one of the best ways to understand? Actually the changing nature of political orders is actually through the different conceptions of time, and there was actually a wonderful book written this on this Bible. The french Single Pulver earlier called speed and politics, and he said what defines the modern period is. The speeding up of everything know what he argues is the more things have sped up the less time. You have not just simply for idle legit, even though that's great, but actually leads to less political, philosophical and cultural enrichment. If you'd think of both in terms of penal that

if Toba, has no political enrichment, the tightening of the have the ability to critique power. Would you need time to reflect? You need a great deal of time on your hands to read: Marx's DAS Kapital right, you can, if you work in for jobs in precarious environments, when you're going to read this stuff or if you want to make a great literary contribution to the world where's the time to read. Dostoevsky is ahead, so you you need. Your time is not only a luxury. Time can also be an oppression, an understanding that then the the question of time is very much bound up to questions of oppression and domination. This is brilliant. Let's see that thing. You say about violence with the time like Our consciousness is being violated here. There's no time to reflect. There is no time to interface with reality. Actually. Well, that's what mark said about earlier nation that it does actually make people less human. That's one of the points he makes. He says that, because work work is natural to human beings

leave dry. The people have always worked and they ve done it in a kind of organic. Why? But capitalism destroys that organic way of doing it and is taken away from the prompt work and all the things you're talking about now, obviously having manufacturing creates lots of advantages. It raises people's living standards generally, that kind of thing, but that he believed the Be a time when you would move beyond and then you could use manufactured goods for things that needed to be useful, but the actually the wealth of society will go to improving society, and that is the only way we can go forward really so five Marxism bayonets drawings of banal, lacking creativity, hum drum philosophy. It could be Kay the unlocks new realms of human creativity and compassion, many of them He's idea marks in. If you actually look at Mount his life and his attitude to things, he was a fantastically

interesting guy. Whenever Souci Bagua housekeeper there was that there was that which obviously You know you have to read between the lines in the letters. It's alright, because that's kind of how shouldn't Yashin about it over your ass caper- oh no, but there's some good stuff, sorry to like, but he had three daughters, all of whom were exceptionally political. Bright, intelligent women or the youngest and by the very big role in politics in this country in the eighteen. Eighty ninety was friends with two spanish or in all sorts of people. do that thing. You know he had a very, very broad view of society. He didn't have a narrow view. He wrote about prostitution in France. He wrote about all sorts of things, so this idea of Moloch shows his grumpy old git with the you know, with the call uncle sitting in the British Museum right and capitally was what you did part time and apparently he did get grump where is. He got older, particularly as he got moral, but actually he somebody. They loved drinking champagne, which I could never fall to angles, had to pay for all that

it's a money was a sham. Pine socially was a champagne survey. Vermont law have been nothing wrong with that robust champagne or see what I've done. I've tried to make, sharing and kindness all sound, all austere and crap you can't we, if you want to share you'll, have to say in a grey Balkans. Very wary uniform I'm sick of this rising is actually an election tomorrow. You actually could do something you could vote now. We told you ages ago to register. It was a trick. We only told you that, so you could register to vote labour now you'd, better, go and vote labour or pretended that it was just. You could vote for anyone, and it didn't mean that apparently go If you vote for labour right now, stop listening to this podcast is nearly over now go down to that polling booth per next in a box. Don't worry about why I told you last time last time with different things are always changing. The master nodes. Look at the window is different. Isn't it right get on with it? Do is just help, stop arguing what you mean. You won't have three thought Brad, gonna think dragged before we start to wrap up this brilliant episode of under the skin.

Here are just one point about. You know your ways: ass, dear the resources which we draw up on. I think your question about you know socialism or marxism. These. His don't exist in a time capsule or now, and it's right, I think you know the history of certain aspects of socialism or marxism were actually very negative to have in developing a more spiritual understanding of the world and with the most middle, to understand the politics, because I was clearly going on a bit then, when it I mean in that time, that must be to do of industrialization, because the Nazis kicked off and went on bomb. A starling was a NASA malware well of k, so that was perhaps there were different factors other than just the political ideology of socialism that Wait you mean in the night in thirteen everyone knew so soon ass. I saw it, but in essence I think you know with all these great

works on these resources that we draw upon to make sense of the world, revisit them and read them in a way in which allows you to make sense of the world today and your life and don't try to create a dogmatic reading or a universal reading. There's a wonderful line by Tarkovsky when he says you a book read by one thousand different people as a thousand different books, and I think that is something really meaningful in the epic massive release, a religious idea. There were dear old Jesus God love him and he certainly did would talk to one thousand people, nation thousand people, take from Christ's message that which they needed to hear and then for me like, I suppose what love reason that I am interested in spirituality, because for me, fruit rallies about feeling about what people feel and when you talk about like us of both the pilot that we living under now is the feeling, but life has to be a certain way that these impossible to change that you can have more leisure time that you can't have more compassion that you can open your heart. The people that I can do that when we talk about stuff like Augener paperwork to free dies. We, u dismiss it. People

become accustomed to their misery, addicted to their pain is a kind of mass site. I masochism that we elect people that are cruel to us that hate us, because we've been somehow trying to hide ourselves while this The charter is stopped, loving yourself, loving society being com. In its Yourself to one another genuinely in a different form. It doesn't have to be hippy. Dippy can be technical, industrialized. The transition to a different type of government, a difference of politics and for once, is actually accessible through the myth. Democratic Mrs, during that summit needs grievously in total united score so lucky to have you well. I guess I just feel that the times in history, where people's ideas begin to change, I think we can every one of those. Now I think what the result of the election tomorrow and I very very much hope it will be a labour government. I think there's more.

in the people now thinking this is not right. We cannot go on like this. Big things have to change if our society is going to go forward. So to me is a period of hope, there's lots and lots of things I mean if Jeremy Corbett becomes Prime Minister, we should doubt many will be lots of vested interests against him come alive. to mobilize out on the street you're terrible. You know it will be. That will be absolute. You know the pound will fall all this kind of thing, but it seems to me that this is this is a period of hope like people saw in the sixties, like they were in ninety four five- and we won't be the end of the process- is gonna- be the beginning of a big process. You believe in God now what Believe is the nature of consciousness, and that is their needs connectivity between people that war is love, while I think, if you looking at, What love is? I mean offices, individual love, people fail for them,

they plunged through their lot of war, and I think that most human beings have a feeling that they have to work cooperatively with people and that you have to develop a philosophy, mostly without think they got philosophy, but most people do have a philosophy of some sort or another. You have to develop a philosophy which really is about saying we cannot survive just as individuals, it isn't about me. It isn't about any of us it's about what we do as a society and that's why it matters what happens to grind in the old people's home. It's why it matters what happens to the kids who don't get preschool dinners at primary school. That's what you know that these things affect people for the of their lives, and we have to see society some in the broader than just ass. It we're all individuals and we work on individual part to play in society, but we just say it is about individuals than we lose. If you look at

every big change in this country, from Trade union rights, the right to vote, the right of women to vote. All of this has come from outside parliament and, as far as I'm concerned is very very important to have a labour government. There is also important that we see that our role is activists, our role as people who can say we will stand up and fight for what we believe in that is one of the most important things we can do so to me. I will be on the streets the week after all, three weeks after whenever is demonstrating our your fireside else to moan about liaison helium writing live account, or else now never satisfied right. You got have you anything at my now, I think it's loving Linz covered provocative, has really beautiful contribution of really will enjoy this. Thank you so much like you for inviting me really. Inform every combat clearly and tell us how the stuff

Alright, thanks, you've been listening on the skin with Russell Brand and Lindsey German and Dr Professor, Dr Professor Brad Evans. Thank you very much. Do you know what you've got to do? Try your level best thin and like I've a way that it seems like society is made up of a series of individuals that you can't just fling an x in a box and clear off you're going to have to continually contribute and create the society that you want to live in both as an individual and as a community, because neither of those things exist other than that with your belief in them and your interaction with them. Your own consciousness is formatting reality as you think it as you imagine it. So. The realms that you imagined the rooms that you participate in will be created around you sort of like a computer game, but one that you have to actually live in even listen to under the skin, with Russell Brand I think they're going to take drugs of Nepal, yeah and any jokes for ages

the show is over is sponsored by my two. If you want tickets to my, took a Russell brand dot com, skeg, a there's tickets, they're fifteen for June Bristol Twenty for June tickets, they're Northampton six June and grim oh tenth of July last Grimsby, you know that, don't you you like the show subscribe to it and review it did it did it did it on a deer suited to these there's holidays if you've not wipe out now what the hell are. You thinking