Welcome to under the skin. With me Russell brand. They show sponsored by my new book recovery priority your copy by going through Russell brand dot com, and also this Nine for the late comedy great the Herald, Ramage Film School at the second see training centre in Chicago is now accepting applications for the year long programme. One study at the very first film school the world dedicate entirely to comedic storytelling yeah, I do actually get in there. label inside access from Hollywood vets, I think I mean that people have done something: Hollywood, no they're. Looking for applicants of all mirrors levels and backgrounds, so go to RAM S, film, school dot, com or call freeway. two six eggs for free nine, five nine to find out? More often, as has other good place now it's time for under this

and the Billy Bragg is a musician OFA broadcaster, a left wing activist who, from eight the nineteen eighties, notorious famous red wage movement, a collective of musicians who attempted to engage young people with politics and indeed successfully January nano whose music blends elements of folk, punk rock and protest songs with lyrics centered on bringing about change and getting the younger generation involved in activist causes his new book roots radicals and Rocco's? How skiffle change the world explores? How skillful pave the way for the new era of guitar lead music from the likes of the Beatles and rolling stones is wonderful to have you

It's done the show. Thank you on the raspberry to be a glitch vehement one of the things that, like there are a lot you might want the people Medina suppose you do know, but lots of reopening when an animal that I want to preemptive when you die. I think people will react acknowledged. The significance of you is a figure, expanded unimportant period of time and has been an important voice in activism, and an important, I suppose exemplify of folk culture and the power of working people to creatively express descent. I think this is something the matter we fully appreciated exit posthumously, as is so often the case? The reason I most wanted to talk to you on under the skin is we've managed to stay true to yourself, but it continues to be a creative person and face the kind of attacks that you will continually face. If you try to express opinions that are outside the mainstream in the time that you've been active politically, has become harder, Asia. Worse

well obviously become, has become easier for people to have a guy you now because of the internet, because someone like yourself, I'm sure you know you two twitter earn those kind of things Facebook, as a Y actual getting the word out. You know, and and obviously that leaves you open to criticism, but I think anyone who and a live gig will know that you have to choose the hecklers you take on. You know some of them are worth taking on some of them. You can, you can sort of talk to him ever saw a band with an obvious you just got shut down, so I kind of try and react to it. Like that, if you, if you can't take a piss, that you should get yourself, a different job rig is still alive. I think we all have. We all have to take that kind of criticism, or just you just have to so and not give in to your own soul Feelings of me now cynicism about it, just carry on doing what you doing ass the best answer, those people clearly one aspect of it, but what about the more concern aid

with some, and it seems choreographed attempts to shut you down light of. How do you probably feisty, love media criticism, charges for champagne, socialism, those of common motives, How did you navigate that being a creative person, who's an entertainers or works within the creative industries, but still having a political voice? How do you deal with that whenever anyone calls me of champagne socialists I'll just order more champagne, so I don't really care what they can. Call me what a lot you know. I know people who can't put down at one nasty snarky remarks. Might you call Bsc pasta and fruit? Well, you know that just you know, there's just one person's pinging. How do you like the robustness, that's required of for being a dissident voice in mainstream with their evident since

activity you have as an artist. Well, you have to show a balance up and what you believe in with the with the sort of skepticism that we all have about have the ability to change the world. You know I'm not an autumn, think for a moment and music can change the world and I'll speak from experience or someone who's at a tangle, go try and do that so I've reconciled to the. the only the audience can actually effect change. You know I'd have a young singer, songwriter or bumped into a festival. A couple of months ago talking about- and I was saying you know- writing more political songs. I was giving him encouragement and he slight said to me yeah, but you know, accounts are constantly about making change happen. I just saw take him, so I said, look what you got

as well. These guitar didn't kill fascists writing about classical art works. You know, music works. Woody's guitar was a slogan that inspired people to see that slogan inspired him to join the anti fascist Struggle Roy and as our music works. It's not. We don't have agency, we don't change things. Our job is to inspire the audience to gon change things, not least because of the next night we're going to be in another city somewhere else, and they can be left there in their environment. From wherever province. I have. Our job is to make them fill for an evening that they're not alone to sort of recharge their their activism to sort of try and find a way to sort of overcome their cynicism. The saw cynicism that we all have that friend that nobody else cares about his staff that nothing is ever going to change. We have to make them feel at ease possible to have some agency, but you go understand that it's ultimately not just their responsibility, but only impact who turns they're the only people who really can make a change because it is more them than who is us and they have the option.

Did. You go out there when they're in their environment and and a beat at change the reference there to Woody Gal Guthrie's famous slogan. This machine kills fascists, as opposed then to what you're explaining is a kills. Almost the fascist That's weaving new lap war- and that is the job of the hour- is today conscientious or conscious ice daisies to inspire that which is already in people a winner out have been much more outspoken a few years ago in politics or something that are flocking to take some time are in fact doing. This podcast is part of me trying to understand what happened and why would do differently and we could do better in the future, the things that happened. Some person level is the US of this. These things are very, very resident and filled up really effective people and then, like my personal pan, if

It is a monasticism to some degree start to make me feel eyes about me. I'm pretty important you know about if the things I've noticed is that the EU is like us of one of the great archetypes and patriarchs of this kind of figured are very, very supportive of me, and I remember filling out on a minute. Billy Bragg's got my back was going on there. This is interesting because a lot of I was very surprised that some of the chorus that was attacked from like, like some of the people, I said are you shouldn't be scientists? What do you feel about that? I'm! Thank you. Firstly, thanks for that and some willpower to you for doing that, I mean basically what what we want to do is use the from that we have to try and engage people in something more than just coming to gave some buying records or be borne out stand up Davy days, perhaps in your Keitel books. You know you're trying to solve it, does our raw I've any more meaning the nation is a constant struggle was a artist to try and reconcile the power. That you have to move an audience with the actual real

How did you apple the agency that you have in terms of moving society? The two don't measure up together? You can be in a football stadium, full of people chant in your nine, but when you actually trying you know to take up the battle and lead them to the charge, you're going to find most of them are good. jobs. I can't come with you, so you have to understand the reality. Is that because he held you, then, to pitch what your sign in a wider. The debate a connects with those people out, I mean the most political song, I'm singing at the moment is a song called. I keep five and depend on our introduce. It could be a relationship or it could be about my fife and the audiences ability to change the world and that so I pitch it. I explain why I'm still doing this job. Why keep coming back here? What I'm trying to pull accosted him. You know out. My sense is that you know what we do. Anyways we're kind we sort of

flushing out as cynicism by coming together like this, because when I'm you know, people call me a political song or match your anguish on wife's website. Pisses me off, I write song about it. A go at their own adult would have one or play my song, everyone, claps or don't feel so bad about it. I don't feel welcome I'm alone and that experience I'm trying to get the audience to have that experience when they cuddle sing. A song like this parent union might be. You know they might be in a in a union in their place or they might want a union in their place, or they might be thinking about that in the old days. And my see everybody in the hole in the community method and neighbours. Even I see him singing and punch. Air and I go, I think, ok! Well, you know. Maybe there is some in a political still, some political energy left in not just in the community. By a may, that's probably the most music, and do you know you can't you can't change the world by doing pocus by writing. Books are womanly other people after take noses

two in them, and a majority of people have to get those ideas in a NASA. Changing awards are really slow and boring process that going to meetings where you vote to make sure the little old ladies have enough money to pay to heat and fruit. A winner, Sie, really changed the world. It becomes about bureaucracy at administration and regulation which will talking about changing the world. Oh shit you going to do it get a storm the Winter palace and saw it You ve got arrives. May you know you, you might get cold unelected right, but not only the equipment get anyone to pitch the only I'm gonna football in funding, go yet. You know that's of these people who got disappointed with Obama, people in America, Big college students crying at the t, shirt stall when I'm signing up their records, but while I'm on my might getting him elected he's just the starving, that's not the end of it. You know, Obama is elected and suddenly we live in a world

possibilities, but none of those possibilities in a calm. Twenty four, if you not go on which free up thing, that's it. You ve got a game in the enzyme to use an American football reference yeah, you gotta, get him in the end and you go get a bowl to him. You know, that's that's hard. It's not! You know it's just one coat struggle Russell. Is it's not supposed to be So where is almost like a recovered? The that this aid is constant adverse a and constant opposition to this system, that's what you like you, the or facing continue resistance in America bombers are amazing. Modern example patent with what happened since then is the issue back over here, yeah and and one of the things that I am surprised by the support it by frightened of is that this is that the system that housed Paraca Burma now how

Donald Trump there's. No doubt these were certainly visibly more worse, says much more terrifying things, but the system itself. I is able to continually house them both to refer to your earlier stamen, where you say that there is a limit to what we can do and what we can achieve, because, ultimately, politics boils down to little old and, as already says, our as issues because I am sure we are actually might well. We also saying back to you from your perspective a my perspective. The platform that we have a visa is as lists, but we are, I suppose, one that the reason that you and your wife for longer- and maybe briefly faced blow back consequences because try to break out of that role, and to try to define to a degree that the role of the artist isn't

apolitical. There is no such thing as a political, if you're an artist that doesn't speak socially conscientious lie. That is a political statement. More you're saying is. I am a lawyer and allied to the system as it is to materialism. This is your son or whether or not consciousness, and the law and in life. I ain't all about politics. Thank heavens to ribbons are all about politics, and I bought a piece of me and our large politics. life is really about a number of different things. A spice room for politics in politics is important and engagement is important, but you know my my prior I'm with an audience first and foremost, is to end the China. Yes, ok, yeah to China

That's how you get their attention when you get their attention, if you can make em laugh a bit, you soften them up and then it's possible to bring in those things that you really really care about was if you go out and try to eat him from the very very beginning, you're the chances are you're going to really be preaching to the converted. I don't like that phrase. I don't believe that suffering exists, but as an example of of you know, if you talked about politics all the time. Of course, you would have an audience had come to agree with your politics, whereas I think, in order to reach beyond that, you go up, you go Avocats. Your soap. Politics is just one aspect of what I do is an input one aspect, because these kind of more usb yours pay in fact Matthew S beta change of a fast and loose thing? Are you download stuff on the table? But my? U S p. Thank you very much here so that that you know, but I would add height just to be defined Bob by politics. Can I do to get a couple years ago at the round, ass, a Muslim and was so packing stuff up. One stage will monitor the obscure

I set him off quite enjoyed. That and he's already said. Well, you know, Billy Burgess will be all politics. Actually it was quite entertaining and that's really that's we all want to be. I want to be that guy. I don't want to be Leone, the bloody Trotsky we have a guitar, no absolutely, but bit Billy, one the things you said there about? Like you know in the end it comes out loud. Ladies night. He moves but like by s power. Politics are part of, it is about if you'd unknown to me radical or leftist politics. I'm talking about current mainstream politics, is it sourced from somewhere Donald Trump being the President United States comes from somewhere. People have already been mobilized to a certain way of thinking. Watch the rodeo is now in is the role of the artist to a post on trump and try and get him frown out the lower the artists to join it does in a. Why do people begin to understand how we got to this point so that we might be able to choose the shrinks by changing the way that we approach this stuff. Because there's a big you know Trump isn't the problem. Trump is just to the boil or arts of of of certainly alive.

listen, he asked yes, we come to a situation where everything has been down to the the market. You saw it. You know the the ultimate tomato the politics of the twenty first century are really going to be about how we hold those in power to account and accountability. Offering is absolute key because it seems to me that freedom is made up of of three aspects: Liberty, the right to express your view, equality, everyone's right to express their view that their their view and thirdly, accountability, the ability to hold those in power to account, and if you don't have all of you're, not really free. You know a lot of people think it's just liberty that that's the freedom of speech. That's defines freedom, it doesn't. Equality is absolutely caterer, but accountability. That is really the biggest one. And if you look at the history of

Britain, for instance, seems to be the labor movement it. It starts with the trade unions forming to hold the bosses to account to hold them to account to get better wages to get shorter hours. You know, accountability was absolutely key to that cause. If socialism is about anything it's about holding people to account about holding the the corporations to account. How do we do that and This is another interesting side to it, which you should kind of like the english tradition of descent, where we in and probably all would argue the central tradition of of Englishness. If there's such a thing as Englishness is a descent in tradition, is Magna Carta? You know the unaccountable power of King John is the reformation. The unaccountable power of the Pope is the civil war again the unaccountable power of the absolute power, the monarchy and then the chartists trying to get into parliament and the suffragettes.

And now that the unaccountable power that absolute power has been transferred to the corporations. So how do we call on that tradition to focus on accountability? One of the things we have to do is you have to make a decisive break with the language of Marxism, which, as other priorities and focus, ought to focus more on ideas of how we hold of that the market to account because over the last two years, with the introduction of NEO liberalism. What what the real agenda. Think of NEO liberalism has not just been tax cuts. It's been to allow those in power to shirk responsibility for the wise saw. It goes by sign the market decide

It's leave it to the market. The market will do that. What's happened is they've, let that go so far. Now that everything is down to the decision of the market, which means you know whatever is popular. Is that said? That's the thing now it's actually come that the the the the free market mentality is being used on reason and truth. Thus what we seem of Donald Trump if this. Opinion is the most popular, it becomes truth and that's kind of like the ultimate extension of a of a system that was initially put in place to avoid responsibility by elected officials to have a democratic society that wants people elected you could throw off all ideas of accountability. Margaret Thatcher just say well dishes the market, which is why we have to close down your job. My because the market says you need

I don't have any reason to exist- and this to me is against runs contrary to human nature, to human sense of of of worth and of wary. You know, the grace of humanity is not to be judged by by you know the values that you have the intrinsic values that you have as a person can't be wide in in terms of the market. It doesn't really work like that human condition doesn't work like that, and we've we've allowed this to go so far. Now that truth itself has become, you know, lacquer up and down on the stock market was true to die. Well, this is cheap enough people believe this, so it must be true to die and what's going to be true tomorrow, someone else will see what's on the truth stock market, you know it's ridiculous: very beautiful speech by like IRAN or Russian about that also bow it now. Billy there's a few things in there one of

we said like that truth is becomes of white out, like you know, like as a natural extension, is an actual inclusion of that idea in why modernism, is about this of shifting value of meaning and the role of language. Now I would say that, whilst again tromp is more obvious example for this reason, phenomenon not agree you earlier common, the is lucky boil on the outskirts of earn already existing for normal. and it would be a pity if the result of a lack of the trot tromp administration, even if it visibly and demonstrable vows, would be a return to what preceded it, because what proceeded to preceded it led to it now, when you that thing about Marxism, then the language of Marxism and, like I presume that we mean the Marxism, was conceived in an environment of post colonialism and early and in that war. Mainly. So if you want to talk to people about class and stuff like that, justice

version. I m all people dont have those same distinctions night I may not have been ministers, the problem, though Russell the land Dr Marx doesn't resonate with Paypal email, but the problems identified have not been resolved like alienation and the role of a call it a you know. All those things have not been resolved and I ve been really properly addressed, but the language in which the left is traditionally done into twenty singularly class war, which is the language of Marxism out a major cities that language class. That again- and I think that in terms of political, yet everything is based around class a now people say: oh now, you know what now people to talk about a tendency politics classes of I didn't. see obvious and other answers. I decide who spoke class politics is, I don't follow Others height. But, let's not, let's not get into the argument, but basically the way the well was configured into twenty entry comes upon, not uneconomic in burn, em all comes them and the whole way of of Hull

being out of framing our politics in which, if we sat another talk about socialism most of the people, more broadly of an idea what that men, that's gonna, think you know what what you know, how you define socialism, you know it's. It's a form of so am I organised compassion, as far as I can say. Yes, if you don't, if he's not, if he's not a form of organized compassion, you're doing it wrong when you talk about this like that, are a requirement for revision of marxist language. Precisely no I'm not talking about I'm talking about a completely new language, a completing the language throughout agree with these things trying to agree, that's where poets come in, yet poets do need to come in because I think about gigs in somebody's language. The reason I think is improved. Necessary is because it's a cold language, devoid of compassion and emphasize arabic language, scientific language doesn't relate to people, she doesn't resume and the extraction of compassion, empathy and kindness from the political conversation is precisely the problem. Now we have to find a way I think, of counter in one of the things

ITALY, which I have to agree with some of them from my limited personal experience that ultimately politics becomes about organization administration, but we do need to find a way of lying with ha. the emotion of politics, the meaning of quality is interesting because largest scientists now socialism. it is not really no, not really It's a name, if is not a form of organized compassion, and you need those to fix the. Have you consciously compassion to the market. You can't leave compassionate charity. Ultimately, in order to be the most effective, it has to be organized in some way like a welfare state or because you know where everyone pays their fair share and everyone gets what they what they need in terms of the basic fundamentals for life: education, housing, and and obviously health healthcare as well. You know, and- and you know some of us are old enough to have been privileged to live for a period where that was seen as as the consensus opinion. Sadly, that's no longer there, but but he can't have

socialism without organization, you can't have a fair society about organization, it has to be asked to be organized. The compassion has to be you know, able to put into a comfort to bear on a system that as agency on people's lives, and that does require considerable when I was actually we can build thousands of people conscious, site, pastoral building, as is the spice of this build NASA. You got think about on a on a on, and I'm feeling really compassionate then build a house instead of their martial arts yeah but come on who's to say, marshland can be a nice foundation. Factories can be organized so that is Marsha Marsha. You can't you can't say worms regret you ever been to Beckton on our share, my my brother's, a bricklayer when they were building presented as anti malaria tablets, because there was so much so much netstat in mosquitoes.

Billy one. The things that I feel are from our light went photocopied. Libya, frontline experienced during the truce mountain of publicly gonna, be here. I jus dames. I've only love what line at a profit crucifixion, nor do they got out. I think the video is interesting for me for what you did when it comes out from an ideological by sea, so I would think to myself. I might running round a dodgy tracking, I would dodging cause or money. Might you know that? Don't you call which are also dab Nike that do you now for myself, bullion algae you James, really glad because you are trying to say make sense what would happen in a way? I was all about the feel exactly exactly in China, so alike articulate and put a foreign. for your enthusiasm is great for what he was saying was quite bottle without the ideal who structured around you're bound to come up with soon with the law contradiction here yesterday,

I by one of the problems, is of course, that it's very difficult being a wife and not for everybody, for somebody was difficult to get access to that information. Particulars of one person, lots of luck, I'm from an ordinary background and my inclinations are artistic and creative, I'm a Taina egotist and all that places where we have both of those things and it's difficult really to like no way you're going to get information who's going to teach you a thing. I remember most about it a one moment of what you fell down and it was like MIKE question time when a bloke said to you: what are you going in politics. Remember the aim and said to him a more expertise to import to leave to politicians might What is not that's what I want to say to you. You want to talk about politics gone put soo on Gumby, like you know what my Rees mogg gonna, be that I shouldn't be not that we should all be able to I will talk about the endless exerting an don't you think, there's enough so midlife white many anyway, you know you shall now Dumont

one and, if you'd have been knocking around with the rest of the universe, that one day playing and he's just because you didn't have a few of those sort of like knocking out to the the stadium ounces to are really already concerned for you, because of what you are self in a position where you complete attacks. Somebody has to stand and pat she warehouses after I without sphinx, you didn't am because you, come from most converse. I give up because I had a lot will be enough. True, because is not really a mentor tat they found out is not really lies, not alarm, reaching our community law again into schools in grace you piece of Roy. I just want to add that our respective that Bob, you shall always was start somewhere, which I still have I say this really me. Love accounts is still look of one on aid and that's what I'm trying to say. If you d been doing, I use there would have been of up work around that discussion on what you and well, what a turned up for our Mammy

well, I saw him who are coming in. If someone asks you that question to him, we've done our best, but we will wait to give it out as a fitting back name we all in it together or you out on your own right, because Europe running contrary to what was going on at a time which the time its change now rex discharge it big time. By the time it was still a tom where people were. About politics. Will you decided to make a stand on man? S voice was so impressed about. Do you want to do that was in what would happen in the night, and I use is from the very first time for you to be banned. Signing I used to being a band was light, this is somewhat from sixty seven is an eye. Is you what kind of because music was belong to us and not apparent generation to be a musician. You are part of an alternative society right and when you in viewed by some heavy. Why city enemy you needed to be able to articulate of your views in the perspective of that will change

saw a where did you stand on those heavy white things die so from very early on we all at experience of two nobody's things on region, other people's responses, so that we were, so a Lula who're you checking, argonauts drama was checking of certain well, I went in a germ. You know anybody really didn't. I wasn't just a punk bans. It was all barons. You know that a villain that a view on on sexism that of your own racism, and you can For me, as a young person, whether you were musician or know, you could look at their perspective, build your own world view peace, and so I think that's not here anymore. So for you to come from outside. I put yourself into that position in some ways you kind of missed what would have been the alternative us of a so have I, as far as like a activist apprenticeship in which you the scene of a people already at the argument, Fraga and realise what came back with and and been able either to follow them or construct your own small recently, in a way that you've seen people deal with

closet gigs. When you will come in forging a medium like you stood in the wings, watch and other people- and you think yourself ass. He had done that us and you too, you'd have unified mortar and that's the one thing that you lacked four wheel, belief and your ability to put across when, when you came up against people, I d gone question time does simple wise, just dealing without getting onto the point that you wanted. A mic and shooting I was kind of people down and that's where I was concerned foyer. He thanks you for saying that's really kind of you, but I also like it became quite a personal thing in the wonders of a slightly perhaps more

central on a personal level, I'm mounted to a degree by an individualistic philosophy that I've been inculcated in from the cradle, I'm not growing. Up with like clear ideas of community, I come from Essex, where, like whitefly, Essex, single mom, lots of I am not come from community values. Older males, educations Milwaukee means is more of a cultural thing. Roster is more like you know, you read the enemy every week and this kind of stuff was in there every week you know that's gone out at home, so a light sense of music has been an alternative to when comedy was an alternate. Yeah, it's kind of gun animals, it Wembley Stadium, doing create huge geeks net that's what I'm saying, I'm not saying that you as an individual couldn't do without things were some. You know there was some school and you could have picked up

in the old dog there's! No doubt I've got an had and continue to have a lot to learn and part of doing this podcast to learn those things that we all do thanks for saying that, but one reason I'm doing this podcast is to learn as precisely. Why I want to talk to you on this. Podcast is exactly for that kind of the motion, but one the things I would also say is that the environment we are operating in has changed you MIKE S over nor leather, the continued modification of music, but we spoken before about football, how the same things happened, all forms of entertainment and now seen through the lens of what is its market values. You were talking about their now. What what one of the things I, like you said, the language of Marxism Marxism has become, if not redundant, somewhat blunt blunt aid, but the problem it seeks to address, still exist, poverty, inequality, another one of the things that I've found. My person experiences two finger law is one. One is a lot of people that are occupying us by some militant about yourself. I'm talking more about sort of broadsheet, left, leaning, world They then I'm right working class people they don't like.

Lay down like poor people and its not coming from a sense of personal, deep visceral connection and passion is an intellectual exercise in some kind of King Kaliko Rhetoric or remembering in the in the in the marxist. Patsy and it was the working class who can save us right now. It is the working class who who variety of Russia's. He was only really inherent within the working class. I add diet, the understand than in the truth. In unending minus struck happen, you go to South Wales and you made the most rightly sexist gazes you ever man. If anyone outside you know when you are hang on a minute, this is what is Colby Roy those people who are talking about that that I think they're they're disappointed to find out the working class people have reactionary ideas, the same as middle class people and upper class people. They are disappointed that the the working class no longer

for the Labour Party that they're more likely to vote for UKIP and Robin and try and analyze what it might be. Why to the the mainstream left, have failed to connect with with working class people. I would rather demonize him, I'm not really into that. You know someone relatives. All of my relatives, you know, are not not UKIP supporters, but certainly come from that same people. You've defined is so alike whitefly, as people known as somewhat that's my family and on and on outta luck in every family, there's some

Rollins, but broadly speaking, night. The values that they have are still devalues the iron. When you were doing staffer like he did a lot of what with the minus, isn't that right, yeah so like what was that and, broadly speaking, inspiring or an awakening? How did you go to Washington and a number of levels? I mean you know the very first one, the very first gigs I did in the in the coalfields. There was a very old mine ago. I called Jacques Pr News Open informing and he sat on a chair and sang a cappella resigned over the year and I was the little punk rocker from London. You know come up to tell him all about the clashing of referring Lana and out something more radical than mine what what culture was enjoying on focusing my virus? acceleration folks, Algeria and I were kind of sums of struggle and songs of mine and disasters and stuff like that?

also british yeah, yeah yeah yo, Yo Yo british songs. That said, there's a tradition over one hundred percent radical of radical songs. You know the law of them out there, and I, I kind of was a bit embarrassed to to follow him really and he was great because he kind of said Mighty explicitly say, look some more. If the music you play by standing on the stage with me, were with the miners you're part of that tradition at at part of that tradition of just expressed your part at now, because you're standing with these people, so don't worry about it. Just gotta do what you do.

I feel that now that you are part of that tradition, well I mean I'm not of the tradition. I mean I'll do I'll get to play a lot of folk festivals, which is absolutely brilliant because of folk festivals. That I mind if you grow up, if I'd actively encourage you to go yeah, I don't mind a bit, so I never quite open minded folk festivals. So I've been very fortunate in that the the folk audience has taken on board what I do, but I'm not of their traditional and I'm kind of part of it. But I'm not, I didn't come from, it didn't come through it, so I still think of myself as a sort of punk rocker really I'm still solve, that bathroom outbreak guy plays electric on no frills soon and in terms of the classification in a strictly musical terms. Obviously, he's a strong determined by about Paul. I mean this: is it pleases Christ, but it wasn't and isn't punk

it's a folk movement in that it is reactionary, yeah? Now it's it's in. It came from people we know so for the great thing about punk, which is why so similar similar scuffle, which I've just been writing about, is somebody that was self empowering. You know you decided to do it, which you know you were going to make the music that you want to. Might you are going to it's going to be your voice? That was heard rather than let someone else savings for new buy their records. You are going to do yourself, his free chords in the former group. That's that's absolutely key! and the idea of a do it yourself. I do a punk rock which, which I still you know still inspires me to die when you're writing your book is an anthropological histories in a way roots radicals trying to contact me. It's not just about the musical thing that happened in ninety fifty sixty. Seventy China is trying to put it in the context of the first generation of british teenagers and look at that

that moment and and see, Yao things that we now take for granted like the guitar was introduced into british pop music, because before Donegan played there were no british pop stars playing guitars. You know it was just not. It was. Guitar was the music of a a singing cowboys, blues singers and Clip Sonia is that right that hadn't happened. It was the first guy I apply to guitar bridge, go out to play the guitar, getting the chance I took on a key moment, and it is also too generation of firm, british kids.

Born during the war from nineteen forty onwards, what's significant about a generation, is they weren't conscripted so when they got to fifteen sixteen, instead of been hanging onto their childhood, the boys before they went were conscripted at age. Eighteen, all a sudden they were. There was nothing from to do to go to to base of their work in a leaving school fifteen, a cop money, so they're trying to identify themselves in the way they do as to pick up the guitar and said that this is a break with the past. We are a new generation, we're going to play this african american music, which is basically what skiffle is. It's basically lead belly's, music and so defined themselves against what had gone before and it's the very beginning skip for the first cracks of the generation get what we came to,

is a huge innovation gap in the sixties begins with with Willie enough lay down again, I wanna hit with rock on line in Germany for two six. What in essence, d, you think was in the music of lead valley that spoke to this generation? I think it was all scientific. I think it was different from that country too We think it was being played an uncharted atomic recycling in autumn music for children as young as much is that dog in the window and nothing it was This is kind of the weird thing these kids have grown up in a time of great deprivation and rationing doesn't end in UK food rationing doesn't until nineteen fifty four. So it goes on for nine years after the war and suddenly ends, and I have the opportunity to

two to try and make the future happen, and I see the guitar as the key to to force in the future to happen on their terms by play music with. I want for themselves and convergence. I go back to the blues to do it, but it kind of allows them to escape the postwar period by building this kind of sort of artistic bridge to the future, which eventually become so huge that it crosses the Atlantic and goes to the top the american charts. You know the Beatles, the stones, all those bands matter, man a tremor LOS Van Morrison there will skiff kids. Why a? U drawn to this period was it has attracted this the transition from surprise music in skiff winter, like rock'n'roll and pop music. What is it this attractive to you with little bits so knew about it? Before I wrote the book, it seemed to me to be very similar to punk rock and r spoke to a few people who were there at the time

and a feeling that dyad seemed like the fin annoyed. When I first saw the clash but saw at times a hundred because they come from nothing coming from, Nope not being outed, got a sweet shop and buy what you want till you fall in years old. So I can imagine white slight to suddenly be able to buy rocket online and buy guitar and play music and do what you want. So and in some ways, skiffle always a reaction against the BBC. When, when rock around the clock is a hit and fifty five BBC barely play it and rationing of societies, kitchen corner of a Russian, it's almost like they assigned to the BBC, you think you're going to rush him.

tomorrow. After all, the shit we've been through and you're going to rush and rock'n'roll. Forget it because we're going to buy guitars and we're going to play this stuff ourselves and they kind of like go out almost inspire start planning, church holes and scout hearts and school gyms and- and you know that sweet odour guitar in british pop starts with, and it's like a very working class ring as well, because middle class kids tended to stay at college or university and going to professions where earning was deferred until they were. just like the law or medicine most, these kids will even Skoda fifteen. There were him, sometimes more money than their parents, and particularly young women the young women economy, drivers weirdly the drivers of the wholesale, because they are the Cotonou, I need to go to spending power, but I've got navigate around social spice in the car gone to a pub on their own, with their mites like don't want to go into tea rooms, their parents took him to so they they colonize these brand new

have a China, Basel, Sprat and operandi aware we are so how and these I really do modern places because, because their their cappuccino, they're not looking to where most popular culture is coming from, which LOS Angeles New York to look into Rome and a look into parish studies, young women, by going into the capital, Basel are making a very sophisticated statement and sign that they are more like surging see book Then they all Marilyn Monroe. You know that they are game breaking with their parents' culture and it's in the cappuccino bars where the young women congregate, where eventually the young men with guitars, come out to scout huts and go into the coffee bars to the two eyes just round the corner area on. Compton Street, and that's where british workers, everything comes out of even bales everything everything up to willing everything up to understanding that the sick,

We can solve it, but not really understanding and I'm told me posting now how it started. Where did it come from? What was the you know cause if, if people write about skiff, what I often just write about lying, don't going to have a hit with rock online like it was a singularity just happened now. We know nothing just happened sooner, so I wanted to try and write some that explain where it come from. So in the book, rock online gets into charts in chapter for anus the twenty six chapter book, so a sauna contextualize that you know it's a absolute key period in development of british youth culture and british postwar culture. Yes, any under there the social conditions, Things are impoverished when you mentioned censorship, rationing and a lack of social space, yep funny how all new definition of people that aren't children or adults that haven't really been there before me. My father was in the previous generation of teenagers and, while Donegal actually was in the previous generation teenage and they live through the water evacuate. My father was in the previous generation

he left school with nineteen. Forty nine age fifteen- I mean you know when he was growing up. He listened to English, music at English, food and more english clothes end of end of unsalted of a stat and that's how it was this generation of skiffle kids. If we can call them that were a complete change of that I would they were defining themselves. I was self empowering their own culture that had never happened before before culture musical culture been handed down from tin, PAN Alley, Donovan Adani, mother by going to you know the library Congress archives in the american embassy here in London Borin Records from the American. Do? U S? Information service was access in something that motion culture confined in some ways. You know that the Simon cows of the die was suddenly surpassed by by guys gone. Implying is all blue sums. It took him

eighteen months to invent Tommy still so they could get power back can have. I have here in between. It was like it was just like pomp and how fascinating the idea is that continual pan of orphaned, tick, emergence of new, unnecessary voice to ask his years under an empty Odell figure, upon about being a deal. I want music. You know these keys were making their own instruments for the teacher superimpose string you not right? Yes, I m. All remains I may know stuff and, and also you know, the idea of Punkahs being you know he is free cords now form a group, that's exactly what skiff was as well

It was very, very similar that is twenty years will have a comparison today in terms of the social conditions that emerges out of because it means a lot of positive things happened. Didn't they now major postal order, you it's usually welfare and I stress that it all over people. These are of a political area of nineteen. Fifty five, you go look back in anger, you know, there's gonna be a journalist. Ports play comes out. Ninety fifty five that again is proud breakdown. Then you got which it Hamilton event in. pop up? In the end, the young, so Iceland, a museum assignment, museum, internal Biphenyl, guy, iced, coffee in Vienna, the economy economy, events pop up and then you go. I tv comes on on streaming. Ninety fifty five as well, and that brings a whole different aspect to push culture therefore, because because their big before that the BBC mediated all culture, everything I heard unless you are going to the theater every night or you are going to to ballet or stuff like that. You just

in Writing- I was your mind- shall spend time and everything was mediated by the BBC so that monopolies broken and fifty five, which is like six months before rock online comes out and I tv because their rough scouting writings lead they bring in a much more popular coach. It's suddenly going to undercut the BB says I do have you sitting in your drawing room listening to counter with you sitting in your living room, listening to what you and I now is telly yes, yes, oh that's in the industry. a year before skiff selling us combine, I understand so rather than they Spirit of Schiphol. As I understand it is one of sort of fun and emergent and somewhat naive sexuality. The punk movement through which you say there are, they shares evident comparisons. Much more.

Page. So, while we're all like comparisons to be made, there's also a distinction. I wonder if this sort of pattern of commodification of indigenous products are Aii, Dunnigan becomes Tommy, Steele repackage sold back by the time it reaches punk. So, unlike you know, the relationship between punk and hip hop music, for example, is like these folk movements have to become more and more authentic and more jagged more hard edge so that they can't be so brilliantly emulated. Repackaged repurposed self laughing is more like the the the best musical was made by people who are marginalized at a moment now be undoubtedly in this country would be grime because that community communities the most marginalized. You know that don't get invited to write, thought pieces in the in the broadsheet newspapers. La Law of Mainstream youth do now Don't you know, Johnny White have goal of getting your time on a much harmonised, make some kickass music and they say that so so.

Grime. To me I mean I know it. Don't sound like you don't like it, but I think grime is in the same social spices. Skiffle was in in ninety. Fifty seven is that commune you're talking to itself and everyone else around it by by making its own culture unknown. We are seen to Sonya Argon Facebook, Undutiful yoga twin duties in a puncture that hip hop was like it in some ways: Yonder Foot Revive was a bit ly. That's what people take control of their own cultural agenda, cities, login and accept you must be handed down from from the mainstream. So is this of Crick Creative kind? Ever like for creative means, reclaiming spice or sometimes just claiming spice voices, then I'll be in her father The language is not usually unwanted. We often use the way we do things in the in the twentieth century. Music in the twentieth century was our only social medium and he had to encapsulate everything. So as a result, at some for a year old girls and sixty zero gazes. You know Teeny Balkan, an Thou blues and everybody

and in between and in many ways the music. You listen to dictated. Why you dressed detected two places. You went to a dictated the people you hung out with it dictated that we didn't lie. You know it was also the one it was a universal social medium and we didn't think of it in that way, as it was back then, and so consequence It had to also encapsulate all of human experience, including politics, which is where the idea of politics and music come together, and that way, it's not it's not something that always fits together and always has fit together. But during that period, particularly the ninety sixties, when when pop music was a universal social, medium for young people, we said emphasise the vanguard, social media for young people up a jeweled, really the end of the twentieth century. Politics played an important role, was a spy cheaper, that certain key moments nor wise enough, not predominantly and very seldom absolute popular mind

I mean, but every now and then you know and it coast and it's not just saw Bob Dylan Type stuff as well. I mean when you think, of people like Marvin, Gaye and Stevie wandering. You know that MR know it all and those kind of NSC staff, and all that all those those aspects nap now in some ways that if a nineteen if the person is angry with the world, if you, if he or she wants to make their views known, I don't have to do what I did and I have to learn to play. Guitar, write, songs and do gigs, because that was the only medium available to me. Now. There's lots of different ways to express. Views so as a consequence, music is kind of lost that vital aspect that it had apart from in those places where the voices are still marginalized, like grime, where that vitality is there instead now is Taylor. Swift vs is, is you know she meant Sharon That's it. That's economy, mainstream, but possibly there is a continuing trend of communication like each of those instances inner we are now in a position where we can look at what happened. We ve got

why I'm only became moon hyper mutated, how we can with punk now rapidly to happen with punk, and similarly, we ve irish people of Sri Lanka turn that round me area are not designed with the same with Go home with anything popular would ultimately be come commodified. You know, he's a precise, because of what you said earlier in this interview about this, if the market which he saw presented oddly kind, I could die, eighty luxury is a potent an unnatural scheme of things. this is therefore an faced. The markets and natural scheme of things is totally not only that we have constructed. You know: capitalism Asian, even in isn't even an ideology, is just a form of exchange, but it's been blown up. All proportion and worshiped and- and you know, given the response ability for the wider society is wrong when it is and always so doesn't really it wasn't set up to do that, The thing you know it's our it's our decision to do that. It's our acceptance of neoliberalism.

Surrender of the responsibility for making a better world that allows the free market do that kind of thing is down, Ultimately, so then, what is the role of the artist? Is? This trend continues the could the trend of creativity being commodified. We analysis of in the opposition's over. You know home again on four century down the line. Having observed to happen, indifferent strains of creativity and and that right of change, if anything is going to speed up- and you said even in its original form, can be turned round very, very quickly, so like what? What does the role of the has become because an issue, let me put forward my pet theories to four may Billy brag is like that. I feel that way: one of the ways in which the left is stymied is that the arguments, particularly in this day and age, lie. aye, Sir unkind of spiritual and emotional of impact that it can see managerial bureaucratic,

dry and dull, and let me something like consumerism, it's all about the feelings we turn right desire. We too have fee which you're no good enough. We reach him right down. Any of godson were dragging you into our supermarket. They drag innovative magazine that movie fear. He knows how to ease or how do you, what kind of like when you talked before Billy about, if you're, at a gig or you're at a football match, and that they were full of this before and you see thousands of people having the same experience, you singing the same song, you're singing luck and have like initial point of contact, say Noel Gallagher's gigs, like I mean there, there's an awful lot to our choices on everybody, got it authorities Luke, suggest Tosh. I don't get it. In the Glastonbury every body was singing. I was like oh yeah, I see immediately. Why can only I can understand why people are so drawn to this cause? I was drawn to it myself. It's that communal experience. My sense to answer your question is that as musicians our currency is empathy

a great song can make you feel something for someone you've never seen before. You've never met, you know any Ella. It allows draw you out yourself and take your wife. No selfish, individualistic things that capitalism tries to encourage a music checks. Your wife, from that sometimes like now and is like a war on empathy, it's up to musicians to ramp that now? I'm not saying this is a political thing, because Adele does it just as well as as oases done it as I do it we're all capable of doing it. That's what a good song a good song does. So Need. We need more that I think I'm what what this is all about to just drawn draw brutal picture. Remo of discussing about the decline, the march is language we find ourselves now talking about these terms, why empathy and compassion, and in o cynicism, This is where we are at the moment. find a way of defining those charms and an understanding. These are the things we need. We need to live in a compassion,

society. We don't need to live in a socialist society. To me, satellites aren't you gonna have to spend a week explaining how it works, but when you talk about compassion seriously you know a compassionate society, people immediately get what that means. You know my man would understand what that men, but We need to be talking about these broad brush right words now, so that we can from now work in a practical way to ensure the way of a society based on those values. Rather one puts white on in a selfish. Simpson and individualism. Do you think they're Jeremy, carbon emission? Saunders doing that we are starting to do. It I think they're reminding people of how that works. I think they're both you know aware that the Why have we been doing politics and why do we do in the economy is broken and is not effect in a majority of people but they're trying to

gone. Oh, I think own uninspired, a new generation of young people to to connect with this, but there working with it I like unaware of- and I believe, that, working in a post, ideological world, you know, since the Berlin Wall went down? We now live in a world in which there there is no guiding ideology for the left as lots of remnants of bits of ideology that people adhere to, and you know the the the critics of Saunderson the critics of Corbyn are constantly trying to caricature him and fit him into one of these pigeonholes. But I think it's a you know up to the problems that we face now don't easily fit into those kind of originals brexit Benny obvious one. You know he Billy Brac about. I think people are always saying the british socialism ours is March to Methodism as to marks the thing they could be something in that idea that british socialism has never been solely drawn from

seize them anyway has thing. You know if you ve got an christian tradition. If you go and look around Europe, almost every country as a marked as item She's part, it was in their parliament, Germany, France, ITALY, spying. When all those countries Marxism is plight of a really important part in their democracy and, to some extent country still does that's never has time is why y know Countries are not wipe a line no want or in our country. Well this As reasons for I think it's a very interesting argument, Russell which no I'm sure you'll issues will have views on you got remember the English chopped off the other day, king before anybody else, Mackay the idea of how you you quit A fair society with some of the most invited, the rounded during the civil war to go out, and say absolute power corrupts apps.

How do we? How do we hold the monarchy to account in people? Forget was Thomas Pine, an Englishman who wrote the rights of man in other the first fundamental and ended up around a visa. When I use that for the american constitution as they arise area and the french Revolution Kidnap Lahti, and as but why don't you just go this way of almost as if we're shine, debate that any exude republican as well, you know, and so on. if a war was before that they want that a meme get to the issue of of individual freedom, You in a civil war was more about religious freedom, but also really about unaccountable pow, and these days You have always been at the absolute call of of who we are ass, a people That is a mouse. I more nonconformist, Walden methods and cause back too soon is warming. The Baptist were huge in the eighteenth century and thy there. They We refused to sit beyond the squire and the anglican church and tugged the following

we wait. When I came in sight. I were banished from the church to me up on the use in the open? sing their songs and have their own nonconformist meeting Annie many wise you can see. a thread of that organization. Come forward to the earliest trade unions, the idea of a funeral. We ourselves have gone. organize we cannot rely on power to hand us down a rice. We have gone taken for ourselves. How do you hold to account those people who have absolute power of you and that tradition, nothing is forgotten really a lot of people on the left, who really should be able to grow the nettle of English and submit a bit better not shy away from it all the time. I think we have a real problem with issues on the left, what patriotism and nationalism for people think eyes. If no nationalism like assume, if you I journalism, is right, if you mean that anyone

left will tell you, Russia. There are many types of socialism not now no socialism is popular while in the thirties date is going socialism, christian socialism, in a revolutionary socialism democratic session well in my report now. My point is: there are many chops of patriotism, many chops and nationalism. On a patriot, I love my country, I loved that we have a welfare state Does this all out the long green fields in all of the flat, a flat marshlands around a black water in latin wiles of Essex China? I loved you for him, but but Osama nationally Spa, MR civic Nationalists in NA, I believe that power is better express. The closer you can bring it to people saw I think that we should have regional assemblies in England in shrugged evolution ought to have in Scotland. You know so the the

in the left eye, as it sees only one type of of of patriotism, what type the worst type you know to Boris Johnson Typed, our country's great and everybody else's country, shit, the book, John Jumble Nationalism and about patriotism. a national in this I might add daily. My lonely sees Stalinism as the only top leftism. You know to any any leftwing ideas, We could all end in touch on a terrorism. Now that ain't true, that's absolute rubbish, but if we look at patriotism the same way and we won't deal with it, we won't touch it. It leaves a vacuum which allows the British National Party and people like them to to easily define who doesn't who doesn't belong. If we are going to defeat them, we have to stop putting forward ideas about who we believe belong in our society, to try and start and in

weakness. If that's what we're going to call it? That is about place rather than rice. You know it's where you are now Robin where you Grandpa was from, and my grandpa was from ITALY that you know does does it would no doubt see me because I'm gonna paeonies environment with these people. I love these people. You know me Yes in a way becomes about love and connection, doesn't hear your life, the inner city. Inability to deal with these things is left. We embrace it. You know when we dealt with. You know our story, co development from the end of the british Empire COS. Because the british Empire building in a kind of damp, squib providum being destroyed five napoleon odium pot aromas or the empire Hitler we never resolved, those those values is those crises of identity, because it becomes of us of a story kind of India imaginable. Sorry, we should have done that earlier today, so you keep that quiet, yeah, and you know it's kind of like it's. It's that sort of sense that we're still

and is still a great countries, just not a great power and think breaks, it is partly inability to understand and accept that it is a great place. Out and law. People of a very happy about that and I'm part of a you know I feel common ground with those people. I don't reject people who love I love to have your traditional patriots are recognize that it's just that you have to get,

and up into perspective here me to cost me a lot of people that were in the services and stuff and every lovely and like are like their patriotism. I don't think, there's anything wrong with that, but our species with this transmutation into bigotry now one of the things I think the systems of categorization are revealing. The model we talk is that there can be prohibitive in law in that they prevent progress, but it's very difficult. So this is the left. This is what the left wants to achieve. It for me seems like it's stymied by a stance of perpetual opposition ism that is not ever going to we're going to actually run things now. When you talk about and idealize what do you do, evolution and assemblies and the closer you can move power to a people, the better lockout or watch that again recently, because I knew you were coming on that thing where you are campaigning now embarking in front in that race, relatives of nationalist type, mayor plug- and it feels to me that, like you, said like you know that that, in a way in

Don't you think about many things are about politics in that many things are about power and like it when you took it briefly about oases analyze, the Moluccas of being friends, we ve now lie the aid though they are not ex like anyone know, as only resist isn't gonna be signed. We working people, we ve got a right to express ourselves. The feeling if that is there anyway, that's the communion of talking about that you get from being with people like yourself, I can ever law power that can have a law path on which to against races in ninety seventy. I was the first thing I ever did in an march from up to five Square Victoria Park and acne, and when we got to the park there was a hundred thousand kids that, just like me to see the clash and Tom Robinson and all those great bands and to the the dye itself was just really so changed a lot more perspective on a lot of things, but a key aspect about it was when I was working at Yamato in an office with a bunch of blokes whose language was casually racist and sexist and homophobic,

Know- and I was the office junior- suddenly said nothing about it because of TIM fills my place, but after I went on that March and it came in on at macho man I'll, never sing out. Gay men before shipment came in, but I never met out came in on March and it was like this isn't just about people of color. This is about discrimination of all kinds, and if I'm going to be in favor of I'm going to oppose racism of God, clearly these guys are. We have a pose on the phobia as well ankle sexism as well, because I read leaflets about it on the march, so I can remove this whole sort of expanded head thing that I'd never had before the iron go. But when I went back to work, I started to stand up to these guys. The key thing to understand about, I wasn't the clash that gave me. The courage of my convictions. It was being in that audience. Voters of a case of my age and realise in my generation will have to define themselves in opposition to discrimination of all kinds.

And that kind of gave me a real sense of being part of something and without a music that wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have gotten our political me in so that's where the powder music is, but remember, it was the audience not to clash and Tom Robinson and never bands at de de de that gave me to that that courage and changed my perspective they got me did. I did a really important thing. They brought us all together, so we could see each other. I could clock each other get that sense of that we're all in this together, which I didn't have before just four hours on my own at work. So that's what music can do and what you're talking about ISIS is that same sort of thing? It's that solid, that's a form of solidarity has not put it doesn't. Oh, I Rockies twice was political but even oasis as a solid I assume that you get from all being together. One having the same moment in your age, where you beauty, Connor Field Well, some part of something bigger. Yes, you go back to your own little life in your own little existence. For that one moment, it's not football. You exist as a as some

much much bigger and you feel you're not alone, and your emotions are welcomed by everybody else around you, because you want to. At that moment, you are high when you're singing of songs of the attainment of school, but this is political in. There is nothing more political than the sort of post darwinian notion that we are individual machines interested only in our individual survival. The empathy, compassion, sharing and brotherhood are irrational when religion is discounted because of the many obvious and evident problems of organized religion as an ideological source. Then what you're left with is rationalism. One of the things that's come up. A lot on this show is that one of the problems of Marxism, as it placed economics forever at the center of political discourse maligning and marginalizing, some of the

is that you were talking about at the beginning, empathy, unity, togetherness, where I believe that when you describe very beautifully the experience of rock against racism and other experiences are that whether it's been on marches, when I was young and the lowest guy in one or football or whatever, and you can contextualize it is political or non political or wherever. The fact is is that we know that when you're at a football match, if you know where that money's going, you know where that energy is going. If you're at the majority of pop concerts, you know where that money's going. You know where the energy is going. So it's almost like happened that this resource this yearning is in people the need for skiffle. Was there the need for here pop? Was there the need for punk was then a need for. You is office boy among people that were casually and in an uneducated. Why I'm sure racist and homophobic it was there and then the result was provided, as you said very briefly, by the clash. Of a mouse tat is to bring together the transmission. So I feel that now, when we can think about what is this change around language is almost like. to transcend politics.

But what we really talking about, as you have said earlier already, is we're talking about compassion. We took our empathy and talk about what kind of society we want to live in, and the closer people out of power, the less likely it is that they will vote for eventually stick and ultimately punitive systems to see them just as consumers as consumers. But don't don't really listen to what a signer in more sense about what move brexit. Why we have Trump is that people's lives have been made chaotic by why AMD in two thousand, and I and you know that they want security. Now Brexit was all about security at borders, but my sense is: if you offer people security of housing. secure a job security of health. Secure borders have become quite a way down the list of things that that their priorities are, but in not being offered that by not being offered to change that they want about Hillary Clinton. You know as a person. Fine, a political body is fine, but a fundamental flaw where she was a change candidate right now

remain in the European Union, is not a China option, but one choice neurotic so did not being offered change right, so their angry about that and have got a vote and they're gonna use that to make your life colleague you, Mr Powell. fishing you and send it to you in Westminster is more one chance of got to my euro. I love you. My marked lost coy shonkin, unknowingly, knowingly, scan create cars are going to vote for trump Kyle? It gonna know that bake in a mess up you the way you think I'll get a vote for breakfast because you're not offering me. The change already went on until we really do offer those people that security I was talking about and it changed the one they are going to keep voting to to for aspirants works about everything watch. Nobody else am I understand. What am I want due to the IDA lamely, but I do blind, but ass a different, that's my position, but but you know the stand whether impulses coming form because,

which is why the Balkan Dagenham United Thy point twelve p m p councils in two thousand and six, because I work pissed off Tony Blair, Simon. What working class got now rose to go Instead, she saw what I did. Those guys was nice. if they were interested in nothing but themselves at the next election day from Oregon I'll think we can trust the White Working class. She knows you know, I think, that's the same people to the put in that a look into the face. A righteous fascism saw it for what it is, and I checked him or not. And if they only since wildly balkan dogma, the BNP that was a terminal blow now destroyed after That was the end of it out this. I me their high point, so those people in the union I shall go. I grew up with are going to people that can do what you can. Maybe we shouldn't be, you know dismissing them all overly Warren about, but we should be delivering to change. Secure that day want. Yes, I agree with And acknowledging the

what these that the brexit and the Trump is a legitimate impulse, anger rage, frustration or embarking indictment, but when you said, but when you said like who gives you luck, I agree with you that if people have got secure, housing they're not going to be thinking about secure borders, it's bloody, abstract and ridiculous, but lie about what the thing is later, when you describe that that Rostov of meaningful change, secure house you secure jobs whose tress our challenge, when you start to offer people that are lacking it doesn't matter. If you have Barack Obama, don't travel does without radical systemic, more Ange. Why would you she's we're Coolby Saunders coming reckoning NEO liberalism has not delivered in his work in the system is broken. How do we ve? How do we fix the system? You know? Do we go back to the wife things? Were Full or do we recognize the old time has changed and laughing so different until we find a new way of of in the the fundamental basis of of what people need that secure a? How do we? How do we,

deal with, that in a modern way, Lava bank I'm back to how we deal with in the twentieth century. Marxism was a twentieth century product and wipe dealing with it. Many of those things that you discussed really about. boxing, we re talking about ideology, Posada think waiting wherever all right, what's happened is NEO liberalism as and the the you know the allowing the market to take responsibility for my can order. Difficult decisions in society, come through the middle using a that was never. There was never consensual vote on that. Then we will put it together. Kind of it's a me as a size, a means of exchange that has been blown out of all proportion, and what we need to do is to step back from that and without going back to the way we did it in the twentieth century. Exactly look at how we do in that does involve those things. Look. I talked about about compassion and organization yonder by what I was, what you call yourself compassion, you can't rely on compassion. You know, because in the end that just leaves sphinx to cherry and we

that doesn't night as what a welfare state was built, so we need to find a way to to organise things. in such a manner that the majority of people, preferably everybody, but the majority of people have access to the means by which to reach their full potential. I think that's what, when you have people to go out progressives, that's why I think of as a whereas, if someone who believes society should be rewarded in a way to everybody as the Means access to the means by which to reach their full potential, she not been very fortunate because we have escaped from what we were educated at Oxford UK to work at Ford's and I managed to escape and the majority of people don't. Have the opportunity, and we need society to be. We organise out of those people who are bringing a building caused it to build cause. Those people who are bringing about to input costs about politics, get do porthos about politics, you know less complex.

It is hard and we are still looking for those lads. And if you know you know it, you have to let one thousand flowers bloom and it's not cheap, and it's not easy, but in the end, there are now utopias. Might you know it's not about cry in that socially stock passionate society. It's really about, being on the road to a and staying on that road and keep moving forward to that direction. You know I will not cease from will fight, nor shall my sword sleepy migrants who have built Jerusalem ongoing thing in England, green and pleasant ass. Not a damn thing is while we live in a guide price and is an important, is like what If we are now, you know it could be better. You know it could be that if only too well

You know you know it could be that unless what that's why I think the English left up, that different spice to try and move food from in always said it's a deep tradition, is descent in tradition is traditional all short questions that you ve been asking, but asking question isn't enough and what we need to do it artist is we need to do to join the dots everybody can see in a way that helps them have a different perspective on what's gone down, and but we have to leave it to them, then, to decide what to do with an hour to implement what they believe will be a better way of doing things. Thank you, Billy, I think that would be amazing now that that's a really beautiful place to end it, but I'm not going to run for things that are done in my notes when a new I meeting Billy Brac class patriotism done it folk. and paganism, so I've done it. Roger Kipling then get round to Roger kicked him, but you just do a little lying like that. Aids is just like that. Guy, like met the queen

I was out for you. She was oil shocks, my autograph do not yet how she did. She did was wash your around. That was it by everything. Was she We need an extra for the out to joy at rule Festival away and after she gone it be possible to get a copy of the and the school signed by Mister Bragg for the royal collection, and I'm like you know, it's the people, I ran after my gig to get into that shit. Auditory only different wasn't quite right. Exactly and also my mom was there and there's not many things to do image of what really impress human hands with the queen was one of them well done. Thank you subject an action I meant by that miners' strikes. We did Galileo Galilei moment, Thatcher Deaf Quo, I that fact deaf quote of yours? Actually so talked battle,

celebrating the part that was so as it is interesting isn't because I suppose a lot of what we're talking about here is nuance and glue. Allow in nuance and the connection between the Margaret Thatcher quote and shaken hands with the queen, weary trying very hard not to be a cobbled lefty, because when you take the path of petitions, eyesight people, I know what you're gonna die every time, they can pigeon we like that every now and then you have an opportunity to sigh somebody that totally causing a country to die so shaken hands with the queen was one of those things that Margaret Thatcher quote. People would expect me we dancing for joy and I played a gig in Belfast the night she resigned. You know I've still got some of the adrenalin from dancing for joy,

my body, still remember that when she died, you know it was right. That was a different thing and I think, if you're going to do, if you're going to take a political stand, you have to be very very careful that you don't allow yourself to be pigeonholed so that everyone can tell every time something happens that Dinah what you're going to cite as real danger. Oh, I think. As a rule, isn't that, so when I have the opportunity to actually say something that I believe, rather than what someone expected me to last one went on any questions the producer said to me. I didn't think you were going to answer that question Ottawa yeah, you know, that's less! Why ounce it a different way, like you said, is nuance- is trying to get nuance in there because on fortune Elite life is full of bloody nuance and you know it it's kind of like. Sometimes you having to cut through it like a jungle nuance to get away, you want to get you to do anything and life is an old black and white. So if you put yourself up as a black and white lefty you're, you know you're you're running for fall every time you know yeah. I think he's been at that point and his focus was to for me to get educated to

in a very education, you know what what what are you recall mobs and achieves nothing actually I'm so good with that night again. Yet I do, I have picked up here, thinks a fifty five close, I was actually very fair enough Uk Russell We changed the name of the programmer yeah, it's going to be a long, long series. Thank you, Billy Bragg! Thank you I so enjoyed it might. Thank you. That was lovely, that's brilliant! This show is by my new book recovery priority your copy by gonNa Russell Brand outcome, and if you like this please subscribe and review it in, I change plays only give five star views, but those less than that hurts my feelings. Thank you.