Welcome to under the skin with me Russell Brand, where we get behind beneath inside ideas and people and concepts that are fascinating to us. We get in as it were under there skin under the skinning in an irritating way. That would be ridiculous. I am in Stockholm, performing my rebirth too, on the seventeenth you gotta come and see me there, even if your nor in Sweden right now go, to Sweden and see me at the war from theatre tickets are available and Russell brand dot com then, following Tuesday on the twentieth, I'm in Amsterdam, the ethos arena come and see me back and tickets available on Russell Brandon com. Furthermore, why I'm flogging stuff check out my book recovery because many of the things I discuss here with doktor professor doktor doktor, professor professor professor Drood, and pay as an SK cost in the book recovery from the twelve step perspective, support,

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Amazon, but now it's time for under the skin, try to avoid making a mental pundit. The guest on under the skin today is Dr Jordan, Peterson clinical psychology, professor of psychology at the University of Toronto and author of books, including maps of meaning the architecture of belief and his recent best seller. twelve rules for life. First, garnering mainstream media attention in twenty sixteen, when he objected to compelled speech legislation in Canada, he is steadily been making a name for himself as the voice of the anti political correctness, movement and its culture did he slew of predominantly young male followers tat

by some as an academic rock star in the most important thing, for the waste and by others as a provocative and firebrand of the all right is also part of it. internet savvy group of controversial thinkers that have been deemed the intellectual dark, where Jordan Pace and thank you for coming under the skin, thanks very much for the invitation excited to speak to you, because My interest in your work was, I prior to or somehow abstract from the controversies that have brought you to mainstream attention, I suppose thinking as a clinical psychologist. I was one and about how two woven the relationship between psychology and and mythology and aka types is well one of the things that happened. I think was that when the political scandal broke round me and Canada, which was in September two thousand and sixteen people came to cheer me out because of the scandal

the state because of the psychology. By that time, I already had about three hundred hours of Youtube lectures which probably It's me in some sense, because when I was being protested against say and warned by the university about what I was doing, because it was high pathetically contravening the law, people went on my site to find out what sort of person I was, and I had pretty much everything had said to students in the last thirty years, taped and and ready for her. What public viewing my website it already had about. A million hits then, and people got very interested in the psychology, and it's not surprising to me because what I've been teaching since ninety. Ninety three is, I think, unbelievably practical, no one clinical psychologists or voice been interested in.

trying to improve people's mental health and I viewed putting the lectures online as a as part parcel of that, like there were a lot of smart conditions in the twentieth century, they learned a lot about how you could put you life together, decrease anxiety, decrease, depression or yourself more effectively. In your communication and with regards to you- long term plans and understand your dreams and position yourself properly in the world, and it's been a real pleasure and a privilege to be able to bring that work to the broader retention of wealth. Now its millions of people it's not surprising, it helps you know. I mean these people were genius, it so far. He talking about Freud Jung, Carl Adler, Carl Rogers, Abraham Maslow- the slew of existential cycle psychologist, the nineteen fifties humanists in nineteen. Sixty users is,

we does dozen or so maybe fifteen of great clinicians, who laid the groundwork really for clinical psychiatry and also for clinical psychology, a name and and also develop well developed psychotherapy, Inter conversations as we know it like all emergent, myths must bear the infliction of the culture in which it was conceived. This is why I am particularly interested in this. In areas of psychiatry and psychology that are resourced from our older materials, such as mythology and archetypes, and I know that, particularly in the some of the names that you mentioned mythology. I is reduced the call to supply a common language. Well, that's, I think, that's the right way of looking at it to some degree. It's like people. We act out stories. That's what we tell stories right, that's why people are attracted to stories, because

stories, are the best way of describing our lives and stories. Have a pattern they wouldn't be stories. I mean that's, why there's comedy right, that's where everything turns The way everyone wanted to that's. Why there's tragedy when everything falls apart, that's why these adventure and romance, and that covers a lot of territory, right adventure romance comedy tragedy and no people like Carl Young in particular, he was. He was the deepest analysed of stories, would say: there's a romanian guy named Mature Elliot, who is also a very historian of religions, who was also very remarkable scholar and very useful if, if you're interested in understanding the fundamental patterns of stories, but young was very interested in the deepest structure of stories. Imagine that humans- Language is every human culture has a language, but languages have a commonality right there all languages and they

universal grammar that was, that was known. Chomsky is great discovery, yes and stories like that. Every culture has its own stories, but the I have a universal grammar, and so you was the first person who who lay The groundwork for four four. discovering what that universal grammar, what crucially important work you could say that what a religious a religion is is it a religion is a set of stories that comes very close to the grammar of stories so and so the stare at their stories that you can dispense with the hero stories like that, you use I did great early working mapping out what might be the atoms the so, if Sophie Terrier truth from which, These patterns emerging my

interest in this is that cause located when you worked with any german Mandela. in Cyprus, for example, the red book faces than what it was jested by our ability to observe patterns, and the fact we respond to patents. that there that there is some kind of universal frequency, though we responding to I had to clients who knew nothing about union psychotherapy, both of whom were badly fragment. They were both women. They both had, I would say, variants of post, traumatic, stress disorder. They had other problems as well and both of them produced spontaneous drawings that were first, very frightened didn't disorganized and then, as they put themselves together and we're ordering themselves, let's say they produce drawings. Increasingly symmetrical and regular and took on the Mandela like configurations that young described, and so that was absolutely fascinating, to watch that and he thought of those patterns as manifestations of

spontaneous order and you see them in cathedrals, great rose windows and cathedrals or Mandela, and the rose wins was in the entire cathedral structure is something like it it's hard to describe exactly, but a cathedral is something like the optimal balance of structure and light it. Something like that and the gothic could see? Cathedrals are also reminiscent of forests right with their with their arching branches and the lights coming through, like let the light coming through the leaves it is reminiscent of that. But there's something about the cathedral that expresses the idea of perfect. Archer and there's something about a Mandela that expresses that something about music that expresses that as well and it's all there all ways of trying to symbolically represent how things could be if they were put in the proper state, balance harmony, harmonies, the right we ve Romany harmony. I suppose all of these forms the idea that they could perhaps be across the various decent

in stronger and forms of expression, some kind of golden rule seem to infer a wonders truth, the in earlier forms of life, language may be expressed as the idea of God owners oneness. Where, where you stand I don't know that I do. I do believe in God. Well, the union idea is that that there's not much distinction between what young described as the archetype of the self and the idea of God and the self would be something like that. The totality of your being across time. Young thought: oh Christ, as a symbol of the self and the reason for its very profound ideas and amazingly profound idea,

we go and unpacking well well, you can, if you, if you think about the story of Christ from a psychological perspective, what an you strip it down to its essence. What you essentially see is that the story of Christ is the ultimate tragedy, and the reason for that is that the ultimate tragedy is the. Worst possible thing happening to the best possible person. Might that's the ultimate tragic? That's what makes it an archetype. You can't go past that for tragic it's an innocent man who was completely send. Who was working on behalf of of of may the good in the truth, broken and destroyed early and young and betrayed as well. So that's the ultimate today and so then, and then there's a there's. A com comedic element to it in the technical sense, because a comedy has how technically wouldn't require a flaw in it for the for the for, for it to work comedically, they would need to be a flow in Christ that he is God made flesh. Is that the floor, whether it depends on what

and by comedy I mean we, we tend to as mortar people to think of comedy as something that's humorous. But technically, if you're looking at story structure comedy is just a story that has a happy ending right. That has a positive ending According to the resurrection story, that makes Christ story a cop com today, exactly exactly this went so badly wrong about. There's this possibility. Resurrection The way that I read that psychologically- and I am not trying to make any comments about the metaphysics of it- is that there is a part of people, that's the self, the union self. Let's say capital as Sylvan Count, William s self. Yes, that is capable of sustaining itself across successive deaths in rebirth and- and everyone really understands this- is one of the things that most fun to teach people, because you know when we. moving through life, and you have a plan or a dream and it shatters, no someone dies or relationship breaks. A part of you. You have a terrible, upsetting your career or

become ill in some unexpected way that everything around you falls apart and you plunge into why plunge into Chaotic audit Underwood belly, if the way it's exactly right. Yes, exactly that and then maybe you stay there, because it is not necessarily the case that people get out. You know people die. People are in despair permanently, but frequently something tragic and terrible, befalls you and fall apart and you learn something profound as a consequence, and you put yourself back together and when you come back out you're more than you were when you went in and that's happening it's at a small scale. Every time you learn something you know you if you ever really learn something, it's usually painful it you It means that you have to recognise that you're wrong in some important way. You have to let that part of you that wrong, die and then have to lead a new part of you? Ok, so the self imagine that you, go a series of transformations in your life there their collapses into the chaotic underworld and then read many resurrections that happens

continually and that's what more do your character is itself? Is this thing that man Just the transformations across all those across that manages all those transformations, so you could say here's another way of thinking about. You can identify with what you understand. That's what video ox do. you could identify with you dont with what you don't understand and that's what sort of seekers after truth identify with or you could identify with the process of moving between those states in all sometimes you know what you're doing you know where you are you you're, you're, in control and and You can become arrogant and identify without and then become too static about it right or you. Be in despair and everything is chaotic and you can identify without, in which case you're not listing or you in view yourself as the thing that moves across the transformations and that's that's the right way to to to conception.

As yourself as you're. The thing that meet maintains constancy across transformations, one imagines At your experience with the controversies around the linguistics and legislation in Canada must have felt like one Those plunges into the debts on some level. Would you say feels into personal tragedy in fear concern about consequence that there may be no way back, that it could represent a kind of death or did indeed represent a kind of death for you for one for which you are certainly grateful. Well, I would say for the first four months when the political scandal broke, it was

it's very unsettling for a variety of reasons. The first was that my occupation, as a clinical psychologist and as a professor was definitely in doubt mean the university sent me two warning letters and that's standard hr procedure. Usually you get three right. The third warning is stop, or their consequences won't be good. You have if you work in human resources you have to especially if you're going to go after someone with tenure, you have to document their misbehavior, you have to provide them with warnings. You have to tell them they could get back on the right track and that, if you have documented refusal to comply with the warnings than they have grounds for dismissal, so doesn't very worried about it. Allies who ecclesiam class today to some kind of personal professional annihilation of sending damage now what lies for they will just in case of need the chance that there are people that are unaware of the details. I'll say, as I understand it, and then you can toenail of going wrong

I've met change law saying that IRAN neutral nouns that all the way mandatory would be applied to people identifies transgender. You said that is an imposition on freedom of speech. Whilst I would make a decision whether or not I would if I was making a transgender person, I would talk to him how they wanted to be talked to. you're, making me law is an impediment on the freedom of speech, and then it kicked off yeah. That's that's! That's a good summary of it yeah I would say I mean my sense that there were two things are objected to. One was that the government, for the first time in the history of Canada and really in a move that was unprecedented in english common law under english common law, surely mandated the content of voluntary speech, and I thought I don't care what you're excuses for doing that. That's no goes only as far as I'm concerned that happening. Even the right. This way seems to me like of inhabitants than us. One always interested in, I think, is power, and where power is like

other, subsequently is looked at what your views are towards us push, structuralist and the old left, and like a lot of things, I think you're right that I know I'm a green with that, but would buy a war the reason. I think that the silver controversy had fuel both sides reason it had an engine on the other side is because seems that, indeed, how? Whatever interviews in the objections that other in the views of presented to you is to me. The like. It seems that a transgender person is in a position of vulnerability, but you're saying this is not about transgender. This is about language, and it's about pressure. That's what you're saying well that that was my claim is that this wasn't about transgender ism at all and about which you've got no strong view. I'm guessing! No, I don't. I don't have the sort of strong view that I would what think I was sufficiently qualified to

Make political statements about the electorate. Pale guy does not understand it, but my boy, I basically look at the research. You know what I mean. The research, for transgendered kids is quite clear. Is that most of them desist by the time the routine in one I'm basically guy by way of this in Scandinavia, where they check that stuff yeah, that's right, that's network! Now people have criticised that research, like all research, but it's the best research that to be done on the topic, but when the other problem was with the legislation was that I felt that it was an attempt by the radical left to gain the linguistic territory and to define the terms of the debate in open, and I thought that was very dangerous, so I was objecting to that as well. Fill you ve. Never the thing I'm interested in here, Jordan is

I feel like the radical left is a very powerful group. Am I being naive here I mean possibly in the world of academia, particularly that I feel like they are sort of representative of a coalition built around identity politics issues that would seem particularly to people, like my general view, is if you identify something corner problem, it's none of my business. That's basically my opinion, I'll I'll call you what you want me to call. You are happy that you speak to me but like but light from, but like the debt. But do you see any of the other two extreme left as a powerful organization it. I certainly in the universities we support that

and get walk down. They could, for example, did you get that legislation passed? Yes, that they all, and I think the situation is different in the? U S than it is in other countries. I think the political situation in the: U S is actually more balanced than it is in most western countries, because I would say they left. The radical left has as a pretty decent hold on a number of institutions and, first and foremost to those would be the universities, but then the conservatives in aren't without power in the United States, it's so because they occupy most of the elected positions now to use your, but that's not the case, and can you don't wanna be? and if I did any of those groups him a right, let you wouldn't say that your presence on the right or the left, a conservative over the annexing, didn't so will I believe in God, while my political views are complicated, because I'm temper mentally liberal, because I'm pie and openness, which is a criterion dimension and people were high Venice tend to be liberal because they really like free flowing formation and they like what would you say, fluid boundaries, because information can move back and forth across the board.

It's so so tempting like that ideologically you reject these taxonomies and you identify basically on the bay on the basis of research like empiricism in a sense, because I am an open minded type person. This language is clinical psychology, so your your faith is clinical cycle generally language. Well, we have done a fair bit of research in my lab. One gets the temperamental predictors of political predisposition and we can predict what parties people are going to align cells with by studying and personality, so liberal types, liberal left types are high and trade called openness and open people here are very open person. You can tell, because you think laterally, you know I have an idea and then it reminds me of a whole bunch of other ideas and so you'll move latterly across ideas conservative person stay within the category one. So you're you're, conversational, stylus, is marked by by divergence, That's, that's actually called divergent thinking. It's a hallmark of goody. Why

it's good! If you want to be creative, the problem with there's there's a price for everything: hey the price for creativity. Is that it's hard to catalyze an identity because you're interested in everything? That's the first thing and your interest will flit from one thing to another, so one of the problems Creative people have, while they have to one is they have a hard time establishing an identity, and this India is, they have a hard time. Monetizing, their creativity is very difficult to be a creative person and make money you can make money for other people, but usually you're dead by then. So it's not very helpful for you to do both of those problems are as a result of external structures, the imposition of external structures on the individual. I make money as a problem of capitalism and commerce. More broadly, and the other one of identity. Similarly and our citizens. is there is a peculiar contradiction in around identity, in that, like all of you,

So we are one level that you reject: Taxonomy suicide, but these systems e g. If you say women are being paid less money, your argument would be will hold on a minute. There are other factors other than Jack gender it here I sank and Greece are today adamant. It's a funny thing, because the intersection of feminists always always claim that you should take other, factors into account right. Women. Man isn't enough where black isn't enough, when I say well, there's a there's a pay gap between men and women, but it's not only due to gender studio, all sorts of things and you have to take them into account. So it's really an intersection argument, Thrones Graham bodies, and I now for it an intersection argument. So I like so do you feel that is why I sent is happening that trying to understand where, like ie our wealth use would lie and where potentially there would be. Opposition between you- and I were

elite, because it seems like looking at your work, he's like? Oh, I don't agree with the the way that this information is being compiled. I don't agree with the assumptions that you are trying to saddle that piece of data which it seems to me that is about critical thinking, very push, structuralist idea, but also Why have noticed is the March of Ie many of your theories- seem to be subsequently a lloyd unpleasant ideas around there's over tradition. conservatism oppression. Even how do you feel that goes like needed, be like you, be well easy for you to laugh. You have or don't care about whether people in general. Not just I don't know oppressive laws around language battles have easily say one there's any of her. Aren't you sound. The news fan is fairness, but it does seem that there is some mischief somehow in need. Around the issue

it's just gender inequality in lots of mischief in me around all sorts of things. But I think that mostly I look at the political landscape from the perspective of an informed, biologically oriented social scientist, and so when people lay out their particular theories and they they don't sound. They don't sound outdated to me like when one example is that the left, for example, tends to lay the blame for inequality at the feet of the western hierarchical structure and capitalism. That's just wrong equality. Inequality is a problem and it's the proper concern of the left. I would say- and it's a proper concern, because inequalities are dead, problem, but its way more serious than anything. You can blame on capitalism every single society, that's,

we're being studied for as far back as people are able to study suffers from the problem of inequality. This I work with his native american tribe in in in northern Vancouver. I'm a member of the tribe, actually nother called the court What people and on setting in essence of like talking about to say much quicker cop, walk the walk Tuff Bear is a language that is a tough one. To spell, because I will probably miss I'd, say too many claws there and they're they're they're, brilliant artists, they're part of the West Coast native tradition of art, which I think is a great tradition within about ice as well. Exaggerated eyes, all its whole. it's kind of a host, an art in some sense, and these if they answer the animals are very, are very graphic there very graphically portrayed, I would say they have large almond eyes and bright colors and the arts very beautiful hideout art is probably the best known variant of it, but the core.

Work is is is similar to that and they used to have this ceremony called the potlatch and what you were doing part marches. Usually you had to be comparatively wealthy too, I have, and you would give away everything you had now. With their solution to inequality, because what would happen in the native societies just like every other society is that as time progressed, everything would become. owned by a very small number of people and that's a bad recipe for longer. Stability, so they would have these giant parties without would often last week's where the rich would demonstrate their wealth and also, I suppose, their commitment to their own provision. Their own capacity to provision the future by giving everything away, but an I'm only using that is an example to show that the problem of inequality. It is not something that you can lay at the feet of capitalism, its away worst problem than that. I agree with you and I understand you're saying that capitalism occurs.

Or to lay down the line to be, Genesis bears indigenous. today, I you, but what the some of these like an hour and outbreak. full to let you know, I don't know what I'm saying I believe in God, or that I believe in God, but like I, wouldn't political I would be a little more cautious about saying, while I agree with this pile up like the smell of don't feel that my political views are demonstrate it within the sphere of mainstream politics because they operate on such a prohibited. Frequency because if they are the power of Trans national organizations, the irrelevant of national sovereignty when it comes to ordinary people, a say in power, so it becomes a kind of too complex for me, What I can see is interesting about saying you know, even if you take so much with socialism- and perhaps you know like that,

I, I suspect, sense that one of the issues you take is it's of continual annihilation of likes to take first, take out God, then take out man then take out woman then take out everything to all we have is the miasma of meaninglessness. I wouldn't necessarily put that if I just made it up, while I wouldn't necessarily put in a read of the socialism per se, what would you say that is well, that's a conflict. One, I mean polyte happening or am I wrong? I think I think it's happened in many ways. I think a lot about is a consequence of the hypothetical conflict between science and religion. You think I'd hypothetical well, because not so sure there is a conflict there.

materials and asked me to run the metal conflict, because the world is one thing fundamentally read everything fits together, so there can actually be a conflict. If the religious realm exists in the scientific Rome exist, they have to be unified. Will at some point now them more materialistic scientists like or the wet what the moray theistic scientists types like SAM Harris would deny. Essentially that there's any validity to religious dorm, although he certainly believes that there is a spiritual element to life. So I think that what happened at least in part- and this is why the work of young to return to young is so important- is that we we work. We didn't understand that truth comes in different forms, depending on its application, is a tricky thing, there's the truths that apply when

your attempting to describe the transformations of the material world and there's the truth that apply when you're trying to determine how it is that you should act well, you're alive and those. Obviously, those have to come into. Alignment they're, not in alignment right now. In my sense- and this is a sense- that's been developed, at least in part from reading. The great psychoanalysts is that fictional accounts met a fictional accounts, even like biblical cars, which are mythological our stories about how it is that people should act, stories about what the material structure of the world is like. This is also where the fundamentalists have it wrong as far as I'm concerned, because the fundamentalists like to think that the the account Genesis is a scientific theory can be stuck up against other scientific, their short by our materializing, the method. I guess that's right and it's down helpful: what's not helped well, first of all it it's not doesn't even make any sense, because the materialists types in any real sense word around

about five hundred years ago right- and this was also a light heart in the cart and and bacon and well. Galileo is another player, but those were the two. The two major players established, the scientific, method there weren't scientists. Before then I mean there were very intelligent people who could analyzed the structure of the world. The ancient Greeks were obviously very rational and capable of philosophy, but there was no science until five hundred years ago, and so obviously the p who wrote Genesis, word scientist because there weren't any scientists, so whatever, and I also think that though the world they describe is much more, but it's much better considered the world of experience than the world of material reality. And while look here is an idea, let it get you can you can try. This went on for size of betraying his own audiences for quite a long time. So modern people say they think the world is made out of things

But if you watch them, that's not how they act. They act like the world is made out of potential, and so, though, even say things to each other, like you're, not living up to your potential, you might say well what is this potential that you're talking about you can't doesn't have a color doesn't have a shape? Doesnt, have a mass doesn't have a size does nothing about it. It's that has a material, a material element, yet believe that you're not living up to your purse potential. Everyone feels guilty about that. If someone accuse you of that, you feel bad about it. So then I may Well, you also live not as if you confront a world of things, but as if you confront a world of possibility- and you each other accountable. That way, because I could say well you're not making all the use of the possibility that presented to you, because you're not living you're, not living honestly, you not aiming high enough you not making everything of that potential that might be made. What's that potential

well in religious stories that potential- and you see this in the first story- injustices that potential is what God creates order out at the beginning of time. That's the idea that expressed in that book is that there is a potential whatever that is an Something act on it to bring it into reality. There's a deeper idea: There are two which, which is a profound idea, which is that the potential the Humility that you bring out of potential with truth is good and so there's an ethical element to the story as well, and I actually think that that's that's a great truth. I do believe that's the case that the reality you bring out of potential with truth is good and I think that's one of the most that's one of the most profound discoveries of humanity, the ability to articulate that idea-

was articulated in the first chapter, justice to brilliant idea, that's associated with the idea that human beings are made in the image of God, because God is that which calls reality into being out of potential, but each of us do that as well as small way from last seems to me to just be true, of course, things that are in the manifest world will want on manifest rightful and many of the things on manifest now will become manifest than we could choose that to some degree we have agency. While we seem to be resorted to treat each other like we do yeah woman, you know if I treat you like, you don't have agency, you don't like it. It's not. Grounds for for a satisfactory long term relationship while leaving the old testament. One ask you: ask you some, because with agenda seems right up your alley. I looked at this book remember about animal. You may know, expects that you we will. It was a book of engravings

the book, a job by the british right, I'm poet, William Blake Blake than this series of engravings based on their trials and tests that job when free in in a series of engravings your way jack. Your way and job are depicted as a sort of identical. You know they ones in a celestial round ones. In the terrestrial realm, the beginning of the image bow I have nice family depicted in front of the tree of life. The instruments hang in the trees. The animals are sleeping by the end of the image after these various trials. You know that after the job has been tested this and we were to assume, I suppose that there's been this journey of self capitalist realization we have through these trials, the the instruments being played. The animals are awake. You know a nexus have a bright future in the sense of astronomical stuff. I e the position in the sun and moon is somehow meant to be significant. Also, the person that wrote this book is a union now The thing that struck me beat the deep and

struggling than they ever since is theirs. a moment where your way show the behemoth than the leviathan to job these. I made as I made the right and then in this union analysis of these engravings. The writer says the the the requires of us that we be good but in this itself may exist that there is something beyond bus comparable to travel tea, in God, the creator, the idea of God, the creator. The image of the behemoth and leviathan in these engravings is terrifying the animalism of the Becky ethics musculature its rawness level. I've been snaky, dark, deep, terrifying thing this. Idea of agency and God this relationship between the and manifest in the manifest, as achieved through an individual's relationship with truth and expression.

Seem to me. They were saying something that was right on the precipice of my ability to stand and send to convey okay. So the first thing I would say as well one of the indications that your open is the way that you phrase that question preserved. Like thirty things happening in that question, all at the same time, one of the things that creative people do is they throw out like images, because your ear, your question was The images is you're trying to map territory that you don't understand, so here's an image and here's an image and here's an image and here's an image and theirs thing uniting all of those, but I dont know what it is like, while an artist who, by the way and so that's a preliminary mapping of unexplored territory, and so we can take that apart a little bit me one of the things so job is objecting to his treatment, because, of course, God has a bet with the devil, basically that he can take job down and make him curse fate. He basically bats the devil that he can turn job into came and God says no. No, you got says no, you, the devil, Bess

What did he can turn job indicate by tormenting him? And God says no job's, a good man, no matter what you do to him. He won't lose faith in being, that's essentially the back and you think. Well, that's a hell of a thing for God to do, but then a job objects to God to some degree and he's got his reasons. Man I mean because everything's taken away from Them- and God says I made these things- the Lavar and so that's like the terrible element of Nature- and I made the bay a moth and maybe you could say that's the terrible element of society's like how dare you questioned me and that's a perfectly reasonable objection. It's like really are. doesn't matter what happened? You gonna question- God really well so gotta get to that then, and then you you you, you will, although job in you

I believe the job actually had the moral upper hand in that description, because God behaved rather reprehensible in having a bet with the devil, and you wrote a book called answer to job which is very much worth reading. It's it's quite a profound piece of work, but then you also woven into the question this idea of the ethical required to be good. Guess, there's something in that its unutterably deep, because this is this is right, the limit of my ability to understand things too, so its speculative beyond belief, but it seems to me that we are thrown challenges and their that and that in some sense those are best construed as tests of our ethical ability. So what you thought the idea was something like this, that, at the beginning of time, people or unconscious, and that consciousness emerged with all of its catastrophes consciousness of death, for example, and one way out of the burden of consciousness, was too

turned unconsciousness, you can do that with alcohol, you can do that by being dependent. You can do that by failing to grow up. You refuse the burden of consciousness by becoming unconscious again, but there's another way for which is to become even more conscious, so the idea would be a little bit of consciousness is like an illness, but if you can expand that consciousness upwards enough than its terms, something it starts to become something that it's all that is its own cure and that partly what your goal is. Well, you suffer through life is to heighten near consciousness. To the point where everything gets integrated enough, so that that's proper medication for the disease of self consciousness, and you believed that that was really the that was one of the ideas that ran through the entire while the entire structure of judeo Christianity, although not it wouldn't be limited to you,

your christianity, so it's it's more consciousness rather than less it's more attention, and I I think I think, there's something to that in some of that city if the thing you see in psychotherapy, for example, is that when you're trying to lead people forward out of the darkness, let's say out of anxiety and depression and despair and and resentment and bitterness and anger, and all of those things catastrophic interactions with their family is that you get them to stop avoiding confronting the terrible things that are in front of them right. So, basically, what you do instead of saying to them in all those terrible things that are happening, just nor those and and and find some peaks right get your mind away from. That is what you say you say turn around and look at them even more than you ve been looking at them. Is very paradoxical advice, but of all the things that have been proven to aid PETE

recovery and movement towards mental health. That's like at the top of the list, voluntary confrontation with what you are afraid of or or what you despise, even for that, matter, and so young had an axiom that he derived from the alchemists, which was in Sterk willingness, infinite tour, which meant roughly meant that which you most need will be found where you least want to look, which is yeah. Well, that's he and I was also his explanation for why people weren't enlightened, because you think well, the California approached enlightenment, to speak in a kind of security is follow. Your bliss like. Well, that's easy! If that was the case, everyone it'd be enlightened, but the union approaches no. No, no, you do what's meaningful and pay attention follow the truth, and it will take you to the worst place. You can imagine and then maybe there's some chance for Enlightenment Campbell somewhat revoked, that I follow your bliss.

I tried, though, by saying I wish he'd said, follow your blisters. You know a lot, though yeah sure that the pain or not I didn't know he said it will pull out schoolboy. That's good! That's novel thing learn up in front of us, you ve said the exits and they didn't notice unravelled. My time vote and shall now reach for german language. The Puma. Why backing I at Millville he'll help me out? That's all, I am reading this Moby Dick smash. My it up, you know, like an I can when he says in this aid towards the end of the book I have when he's paying out, we have a pipe and stop using these really losing it now about maybe he's finding it too. but we say that talks talked about will? Who is it that moves this arm? He says who is it that think these thoughts? If the mighty son has no control over its movement? control. Is I have over his thoughts? He took him out fight and death

and these ideas again seem to me very potent powerful themes, my the position. He struggles with a great whale right now he asked the dragon of the abyss. That's that's Moby, Dick! Is that it's the hero against the dragon of the abyss and he's obsessed with it right why he should be obsessed with it. It's it's it's! What to be obsessed with is the dragon of the abyss. That's the oldest story of mankind. Is that your proper obsession it's the dragon of the abyss. That's where the gold is. Yes, that's where the goldies, even though that's worth, as are most terrified, also a bloody tragic ending, except that means you take each man as the protagonist, in which case Ishmael survives, and I have to ruin it one dice by lifetime. So it's a tragedy. It's a tragic encounter with the dragon of chaos, he's a failed hero for outcomes, he's out and he's gay lost that limb and stuff, and actually, yes of seems like just like captain Hook and the

I know he had. I have to have a law. For me, it's very exciting when I see these patterns of perennial is permitted is exciting, because this tree is a implicit energy and implicit in. It is true for now that thing we were talking about minute, go where we were excited to follow your bliss, the thousand essays, let us, as is some to Maxie, might understand in Buddhism if, like late burn, lay burning burn. My take away from me, every right, The idea is also there in Christianity, so there's no called interpretation. Those letters on Christ's cross, I an hour I Jesus hearing leading actor. It means Jesus Christ, king of the Jews, and it was put there by the Romans, but there's no cult interpretation in Latin, which I can reproduce, but it means through fire. All things are renewed and one is it. One of the deepest ideas of Christianity is that you should burn everything off. That's part of you that isn't part of that thing that can die and be reborn does all sorts of baggage that people

say that their baggage that you're carrying everyone knows that its deadwood, it's like that, has to burn off, and that's a lot of that wave or of you than you think, support for them, his show comes from me, undies made from sustainably sourced naturally soft fabric, this free time softer than cotton me, and these will be the most comfortable pair of underwear you own. They are the ultimate feel good undies, for when you want to feel naked, not be naked. You know that someone has happens. Doesn't it you want to feel naked, but not be naked? Ladys, they come in terms of different colors, installs included, solids and lace, boy, sure, bikini and thong selling for everyone and every okay. and fell as the diamond seemed pouch gives your stuff the support it needs without it feeling too tight and the uneasy social you'll love the underwear that they offer. One hundred percent satisfaction guarantee, if you don't love your first pair you get a full refund have nothing to lose right now my listeners will get twenty percent of their first pair and free shipping is no brain at twenty percent of free shipping and a hundred percent satisfaction guaranteeing. What are you waiting for stop sitting there?

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until now to discuss relationships, attraction, life, hacking and success. The art of John is highly addictive, strive to be fun and educational same time is not stuffy college, professor textbooks Duff, personal growth wouldn't be so boring time. This isn't pop psychology and superficial advice is shove off his meaningful fun life, changing insights with a practical age that you can apply right out of the box. You deserve an extraordinary life. Go to. The John DOT, comforts, lash, podcast or search for the afternoon on Itunes, stitched wherever you listen, import, gas and start taking your life to the next level. We I really enjoy the show- and we think you will as well and now before we go back to you under the under the skin, check out the rebirth to an Russell brand dot com I am in Sweden, this Saturday the seventeenth at the Water Fund Theatre.

With my rebirth till it's gonna be fantastic if you're in Sweden or near Sweden, if you're in Stockholm or near Stockholm, Evirene stop poor, go to Randal COM and get your tickets, the following Tuesday I'll be at Amsterdam in the if ass arena year, arena very big, you got so those tickets so come see me in Amsterdam, Reba there's an amazing show themes the ones being discussed now, but deliver to commit it and joyfully and in striking distance. Now it's time to return to under the skin withdrawn Peterson. Whilst you still haven't said whether or not you believe in God or not, won't keep going on about it. I'm not one of the type of people that seem to do that. So that, like he seems to me that you reveal truth at it

to me that you are interested in the truth in scripture and methodology. Then what this leads me to is something with active on briefly: it's about the role of power and the function of morality and ethics and an ally, and indeed simpler, ideas, more terms, ideas such as compassion and goodness does so when, like you know, is interesting to me that you've written so have an accessible to have self help type book that clean your room stand up straight. Stick your shoulders back stuff that you know like. I would not query they might the only thing that I feel like. I would like to ask you about, because my I don't know if I even have a constituency but the people I find I find myself talking a lot to muslim people Young women, self harmony in the zoo is european. Unimportant who psychologists I'm asking you avoid a more access to that kind of information and those kind of experiences than I do have they so strong feeling that I'm supposed to make myself a veil for the vulnerable,

power lesson for the voiceless, some better find this is where one is. How do you do it? How do you do Huge bloody question sometimes- and I won't be interfering in their lives- is the majority of the time right. They certainly is mothers and there's a maxim. That's often apply by people who work in old age homes, which is never do anything for the residents that Can do themselves have re, constitute their own money and sleeping above a very proud that it was. I think, you'll find the money and a right exists. So isn't it always hard like the thing about the thing about compassion? Is it's not sufficient to produce solutions? Compassion is an unbelievably useful emotion if you're dealing with six once all the infant walk out there, always right she's there also. But like a lot, but was not very, can you send it doesn't work now, but will about a whirlwind essays light

and I said this thing about good that the the one of the as one of the essential themes, ideas. About the Christ myth bailing out too burn y. All that cannot be reborn patio. My the actual language, only it's all about is kind, kindness, love, love, kindness, kindness, love, not revelation nodded revelation, he's a judge, readily What do you still? What used to be taken that, as was the books beyond the gospels you're still taken, is the word Christ? Well, I'm taking them as part of the entire corpus of story mean the reason that young sought revelation was appended to the Bible was because the Christ in the gospels was aired deuce too much in a sense on the side of mercy and not enough on the side of Joe because here's this element is a simple technical. This technical reason, no slight We don't want to judgment, oh Jesus, why you don't have a choice, because if you an ideal. Its judge, like you, haven't ideal near my

an ideal that you have a view it simultaneously your judge, because you fall short of it. I understand this process funny enough. I was talking to the fellow that taught me meditation. Yesterday, Bobrovsky he's a student of the Maharishi. You know that he said that but Mary she was asked. What is the one principle? The one principle he didn't say it's compassion or anything like that. He said discernment, discernment in which powerful we are going to follow retention, going bad judgment. That's why in revelation, Christ just divides the damned from the saved and most of the damned bits discernment and what that means in some senses that there's a thousand there's a hundred thousand ways to do things wrong, and only one way to do them right, maybe only five ways of doing them. Right, but you know that you're all life is that the though the there's an infinite number of snares, that you can tangle yourself up it and to find that pathway where everything is balanced, that's all

that request continual discernment and attention, and so you can have an ideal without it being a judge, and you can't you can't live properly without discernment, but that doesn't mean compassion and compassion. Isn't relevant, doesn't mean that at all a guy see something this of the Kurds. To me, see like I'd like you found myself in different types of controversial situations, various conflict and many in much of the time because our maize who said tyranny, here's the deliberate removal of new wants people really matter, not an inside that, as you know, what's good for his good. She sighed by, like the thing, arrived deliberate, removal of New Orleans yeah. That's that's what makes it different than ignorance, because ignorance, there's no new wants an ignorance but its excusable, because you just don't know any better when its deliberate, that's a whole different story. After nice, who said the album was the filmmaker made like grey gardens you might that be. I did a documentary within very briefly and he he made that Beatles movie when the Beatles first came the states

Gimme Shell, is the mouth nice, probably all guys in Aberdeen document, even during the approval, and he much of the flying, the wool verity style. This informs us good documentary journeys. A deliberate removal of neurons are worded aims of Briefly Phil none other than President Donald Trump of all people, but one of the things that I wanted to talk about was, if, like this is a thing, I like all of the I don't like, though I agree and or orfield. I know what you feel that you know that one of the group of the NEO Liberalism abandoned its allegiance and left is. Politics has in assent, abandoned the working class and I can understand their rage, but the feeling personally have is when, if I as I said odd, among an thunder, so I know the offended women which are- when I was more when I was a single person have promiscuous that Cosby conflagration in conflict

or when I've done things like him in his superior few other pat, like a kick back. I've always felt bad. If I feel like I've offended, people that I would I would regard was culturally are regarded as vulnerable look around the luck. I, when we make the conversation about the use of language tyranny and oppression in free speech will say. I agree with you, but the, but I do take from you know the gospel version of Christ, the idea that kindness love we can let we have to continue to find resources for anger. I will im new to fab, but we must continue to be loving. So what my question is is, if you have found yourself in a position where I kind of think some people were using you to sort of say fuck, women are fuck, you transgender people, For me, I think I would want to

go on ass, not my back home. That's where you stand on that. Well, I think I think that first of all, we will go to the most fundamental part of the question, which is this issue about love and one of the things I thought about a fair bit is the meaning of the sermon on them out and as far as I can tell it's, it's it's basically a two part. It's two part wisdom. The first is that you should aim at the highest good that you can imagine, and that would be a good that includes everyone right. So if I wanted what was good for you say if I generally wanted it, I wanted in a way that was good for you now and good in the long run and good for you and your family and your community and may be good for me, too. You know we could conceive of that as the desire, and I think,

that's a good definition of love is that you actually want the best. You want the best possible outcome and in the gospels, of course, that's extended even to your enemies. Yes, right is that, okay, if we're going to have things good, let's have it good enough for even the people that set themselves up against me, because if the world was running properly, things would be good for them too, and that would be better, and it seems to me that that's a very good way of looking at things. It's a difficult way of looking at things and then the second part of the sermon on them to something like having established. That is your aim, which is no easy thing by right, because you have to be pretty clear, headed and single minded to actually want that to be rain there. You can concentrate on the day and you can try telling the truth and you can Eliza

truth and love that are allied together, truth, love and attention at something like that that are all allied together with regards to transgressing against the vulnerable. I dont think that that is what I ve done. I think that people have claimed that, but I don't think there's any evidence for it. I mean. First of all, I knew absolutely that I have brought perhaps thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands of people, but certainly thousands of people away from identification with the right cause. They write me all the time and tell me that I received about thirty thousand letters specifically from people have been watching my Youtube video since August and twenty five thousand of them, or so we ve tried to count, are from people who said that they were in very dark places and that their lives are much better, much oriented towards truth and responsibility and away from political ideology, mostly on the right right that they were attracted on the right cause. I have more people like that right me than people

who say that I say rescued them from the hell holes of the radical left. I think that's more of a historical accident, some in some in some wise than than anything else, and but also with the transgender issue. More specifically, I've received now at least forty letters from transgender people and the only one of them was critical and it wasn't that critical, the rest of them all said we never signed up to be poster boy of the year for the radical left and it's no. It's been no picnic. Believe me, all this happened is that our lives have become much more difficult, and I believe that- and I don't see that I think one of the mistakes that the radical left makes- and this is part and parcel of their food,

Station with identity politics is that the fall all over themselves to believe that, if a person identifies as a minority, then they immediately have the right to speak for all the people who are in that minority and that's a claim that I reject completely mean. First of all, there is no transgender community. It's not a community, because the community is constantly interacting and networking and has a shared purpose and all that transgender people are just as diverse as any other people. It's like saying. Well, there's there's no real black community there's, not a homogenous political view, went across the black population. I suppose it. I agree to a point that these taxonomist necessarily externally imposed because how would they be intrinsically experienced? I understand, but also it seems to me that there is a thing called the experience of An african American and you can put into that high prison populations for young miles. Lack of educational

opportunity or work opportunity that data is available for that, so ball community may be an incorrect term. literally. There is, is that straw seem to be under set in another case, and I would have about so some of the war, the war, the reprocessing we'd as far as far as we know so far, of much of you are a tree and online work seems may that it supports the powerful, is a ports hegemony. I wouldn't I don't agree that things were simple is why men are a bit about letting alive, but I'm only interested in who is able to effect change. Who is able to influence? Who? Can you not Can public war possibly life. Who is being control? That's what interests me so it transnational corporations, economic elites, Eliza, and how are they serve by what I say? Oh boy, were you say, ok, so that that's a reference back to the existence of inequality. We agree

reacted in a global massive problem. Oh yes, you're saying its actual, which clearly well it's not. You cannot laid at the feet of capitalism that absolutely clear that than the It is now she s like Ale, between those who have taken an undesirable what's that companies and doesn't help they semi like a marxist critique, where I understand body, lackeys, capitalism, still only molest growth from fine, I from finite resources. And also capitalism will always always be redirected and criminally misused, and under this of the economics of our time is so for me is demonstrable, and so, if there are people who say, oh no people are richer. Now than ever, but, like you know, staying in L, a for awhile and ninety thousand homeless people that's great red eye area, seems like sums of let the apocalypse he's creeping in people are richer than they ever have been, but the extreme extremes of inequality or high too, and there is some evidence that there is some evidence while here here is an example of how these things might work. So imagine that people that people are getting richer there's absolutely.

Doubt about that. But here's here's I've got more stuff, even though I'm sure you would agree that rv that that's what's driving that is good, like obesity is a bigger problem in the world now than starvation. Right, that's a big deal, that's a big loss, but here's in a way. It still implies that people are being underserved by the sea by their operating systems over. There is no doubt about that Seville inferred, inequality also. We have swerved well, first of all, there's no doubt that any social system has it, Article and arbitrary aspect mean that's an architectural training right any of course, even though even well functioning systems have a tyrannical aspect problem, not mostly or at least merely by Americans, you down with no native Americans native Canadian S, that their quota yet their eyes, like their social system set up. Oh, it's a catastrophe go on. Oh well, I mean did your task?

for all sorts of reasons. I mean something ass, yet it is it is it is it that the situation is very catastrophic what he murmured because, while the reserve system was set up in Canada and it had a possibility of working when there was a possible see that small communities could work economically, but small communities don't work economically anymore, like if you go through, says catchment for, for example, a central province in Canada. In the nineteen sixties, there were thousands and thousands small towns, mostly caucasian. That is because their dies. Captain is no it's not it's deeper than that. It's the same problem. here's might be deeper than it, but in its current form, is cut because I would agree that war is capitalism, a manifestation of greed. No, it's a design. Well, it's the same thing, but the same thing has happened all over the world, like urbanization is taking place in the tremendously rapid rate. It doesn't matter what the culture is.

The form of government, so you think that the politics is happening at a lower level. The phenomenology that is aware, that is where the significant issue is, is a bigger toy and within it political systems are slowing about, oh, but that doesn't mean we should thus man all the ones we have in search of fairer, more just better ones. If people, if empirically no one, can come up with a way to reliably flatten inequality. That would be a good thing, but the empirical evidence suggests so there's a bunch of things. It suggests. First of all, if you look at the at the attempts to alleviate inequality, over the last two hundred years, whether there were left wing governments in power or right wing governments in our made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the degree of inequality the. Things that have been reliably demonstrated. Two flat note: inequality are catastrophes, wars, revolutions, epidemics, there's one other war revolution.

The demagogues! Well, it's you be so kind of arson yeah! That's right! It's another horsemen I can remember wish by, but at a price of the price of radical redistribution seem to have noticed a deaf ear there and no one has come up with this it s because of how malfunctions, because, like you look at it in an unequal system, whilst there are many people that are suffering there are some people that are benefiting, I mean a tear that benefit yes from their current economic situation, and I drive nice car. I have nice house, I go where I worked. Well, let's look at that for a minute like if you think about health, happened in your life. I bet I can tell you how it has gone. Well, I mean that this isn't. personal account, but you had a subtle ass. I know it s a disaster in one dimension right high success, but because you were successful, not dimension, all sorts of opportunities came. Your way like my suspicions, are that, where you're sitting now you have more opportunities than you can do

with correct, yet right opportunity right exactly whether the sea, this is part of what seems to drive inequality. Is that, as you get successful, the opportunities that come your way start to multiply, and they dont multiply linearly. They multiply exponentially, and so, when start. Moving up, you start moving faster and faster and faster and faster, and then you hit it. Where you have so many opportunities that you don't even know what to do with it, and so it's a nonlinear improvement, but the the side of that is, and you might have had periods in your life where there were like this to wear. Let's say you start to get depressed, then you start to drink, because you're depressed, and then you start isolate yourself, because you're drinking and you're depressed and because you're drunken depressed than your friend start to abandon you and then you lose. your job, it's like going downhill in a straight line? You're go downhill, faster and faster and faster to fall off a cliff and now seems to be how the world works is like. There's a centre point unstable things improve. Then they improve exponentially.

things fall and then they fall off exponentially, and that seems to be what striving inequality you start to succeed and that probability that you're continues to succeed, starts to expand, and so on. We don't know how to control it and will hear hear some other examples of it, though, because I said you couldn't laid at the feet of capitalism, the same thing happens to cities, a small proportion of the city's get old, people, so some cities grow like mad and others fail catastrophically like like Detroit it it it up. As to the massive stars. So there's a very few stars in the in the milky way that have most of the matter, so it applies to the height of trees in the in the jungle. Right, if you think you Europe applicable young cosmology and in violence by the way,

they are the verification, politically and socially logically, becomes less relevant because you see these phenomena of being broader. Well, then I don't know. Maybe I don't want my own freeman interaction. I don't think it's less relevant. I just see. I don't think the left wingers are pessimistic enough about the They inequality is a problem. We have had is a problem like it's. It's a terrible problem, but then they say well, it's probably a function of our political and economic systems and we could fix those. It's like. No, it's not a function of our political and economic systems it is it's at such a deep level that we don't know what drives, and we certainly dont know how to control it like But does that not mean Jordan? That would you then reject any attempt to alter systems in favor of fairness, because it seems to me that the focus is on like and as it would be, for clinical psychologist, individual change- and I would put my personal experiences without the visual change, social change. You saw it

if an and many squabble great gurus like you guys, are you answered it right then, and there, because, because I am concerned with inequality, say with social instability and- and I thought about for a long time, I knew that the left wing approaches tended to fail catastrophically and the right wing of courses in particular concern with inequality, so that RO left wing files and the right wing don't care here. That's right! That's that's funded, so we need today I don't see the danger sufficiently, and the right wing also tend to think that the spoils go to who deserves the yeah, that's kind of true, but it's not complete. Lee trip. So that's that's part of that now, because we are all age because, of course, more like a from leftist perspective would be that we not starting. We have a level playing field while in the system is imperfect at select. This is why I think a spiritual solution, but as something that is beneath they'll beyond material is the only way that true progress is likely to be achieved. Our thinking of this sum I you said before about

We were talking briefly about kindness and compassion, and it occurs to me. Industries for space program show very simplistic heroism itself, by which I mean sacrifice the willingness to sacrifice herself for a great idea excites me about that idea and I believe weather phenomena we so loaded as if someone is willing to die for something is that I believe, is bigger than there are in fact that themself theirs is not the truest thing than theirs. Something greater? If I would give my life for another person is almost an acknowledgement of oneness the temporal nurse of the individuated self, and we all work so hard to achieve individuation and sure much of your work as a clinical psychology guiding people towards it. But for me it is just a temporary resting place. Because having had the kind of experiences, a person humiliation, annihilation, success. Failure decimation in all of these things that what what

I've been led to a more I continue to struggle with is how do I? How do I serve? How am I have served? How do I helped? You thought? I think that that that is the solution to the problem is like. I don't think the solution to the problem of inequality is sociological. I think its psychological partly what I'm try because he's closer to essence, because it's more essential Our society has to be a reflection of individual psyches or collective psyches. Why? in temptation, the temptation towards resentment and destruction that associated with sociological approaches to inequality is too great and that, as a consequence, those those movements, ten inexhaustibly to become corrupt,

and destructive, because I think the Orwell put his finger on it when he said that middle class socialists don't like the poor, they just hate the rich and that hatred. I think that hatred gets the upper hand in sociological movements. I think that the best approach to ameliorating inequality is to strengthen the individual, mean that and that's and that's what I've concentrated on doing when we have this program, the self authoring suite and there's a component of that that helps people write an autobiography and another component that helps them write an analysis of their personality and another component that helps them write out a plan for the future and we've used that we've studied the effect of having people write out a detailed plan for their future and into proper planets. Like okay, look, you you get to have what you want three to five years down the road you get to have the friends you want you get to have the family, you want you get to have the career, you want the education, you get you get to take care of yourself properly. You get to withstand

the temptations of drug and alcohol abuse and other sorts of impulsive pleasures you get to make productive and meaningful use of your time. Ok, what is that look like for you write it out? What does it look like? Just you need a vision, and then you need another vision of how terrible things could be. If you let, on your bad habits, get the upper hand and we ve had people do that in an experimental situation and most of them college students and the consequences of that there were two consequences. One was general, which was that university students were above thirty percent, more likely to stay and university and got grades there we're about twenty five percent better this effect, but even more interesting way- and this is the coolest thing. I think that we have discovered, as in our inner psychological research it we did this research in HOLLAND at the at the Erasmus University in Rotterdam, the Rotterdam School of management, and we ran business students through the future offering programme for multiple years or so.

thousands of them and we stratified them by gender and ethnicity, pretty a pretty rough caught men, women and then dutch nationals and non western ethnic minorities- ok, and so that the performance was like this. The dutch women were at the top, then the Dutchman then then in north western ethnic minority women, then the norm MR ethnic minority men, and they were behind the dutch women bye, bye, bye, They they showed about an eighty percent decrement in performance really quite catastrophic two years after they did the future authoring program. They were ahead of the dutch women. It just blew us away because it was, and it was a perfect indication of fact that you can use a psychological intervention to ameliorate what looks like a sociological problem, and so I think the right see I

I think the right solution- and this is what I've been saying over and over. In my my lectures and in this book, twelve rules for life- and this is why I think it's become so popular. I said: look you're right, you are right, you said earlier in the last question. Well, you cannot ignore the group classification problem. You know, there's a black experience, the latino experienced, there's a female experienced like yeah, that's true, but you have to do so. What level of analysis you're gonna make primary and I think the primary. the level of analysis is the individual and the psychological rather than the group. Sociological and I think, if you put the individual level first, and then you alluded to that view because it was, it was like an intuition that you were bringing forward, which was your intuition is being that the right level of progress is made at the level of the individual, and I, think. That's true. I thought that's the only level where I have personal authority as well right for personal responsibility, because the here's the thing here's how about this? Don't

recommend any changes that you wouldn't suffer for if they failed how's that and that's the problem with the scale political action. It's like well, here's how we should change things it's like while they changed them as well, fails doesn't bother me. It doesn't hurt me, I'm not involved in it. It's like you should careful, when you try to change things to make sure himself from for your own stupor, of course, of cordial them, but that that also plays into the hands of conservatism. Because you know when you said let that leftwing change tends to base of the potentially distracted these. Of course, these are not yet no, not just left wing yet is right wing radicals to and even not yet they add also varies so conventional politics in the economical impact that it has. The inequality which I like a wall shows that you continue to say that the problem of inequality is an emperor political biological.

Causing a logical gives rise to really deep problem. It is really a proponent of Anthony whenever you get your problem, that has that level of profundity ubiquity the solution- can only be spiritually week after access the transcendent in some way to look for solutions sounds really recently. I really believe that, where do you believe that I mean I'm not feeling that? But you obviously believe I do belies what what drove you to that conclusion. I've been driven to this conclusion by the experiences of personal failure and personal limitation by the Area of individuation by the failure of my own grandiose tee, the failure of my own ego, the failure of fame and power and money and sex and drugs. They, the inability of them to reach me in the belly of the base, deep, deep deep down. Whether leviathan is this Cuba is this alchemy was redundant

I realize I think this bird, the spiritual journey for me, the hero Janine, like interim, using reference points in which you are an expert in a professor- is the the death of the small as self and the realisation of the capital, as self maize become. I serve and become a servant of good use your abilities to generate the maximum amount of love, the maximum about mount of kindness and compassion be alert to where I can be most use, never me that can be incredibly limited because I'm still deeply egotistical, narcissistic flawed filing individual. But what my focuses, what my intention is one trying to learn to become in this journey. Self realisation is a compassionate and loving man, and you also said you added something to them to know what you are useful to that dear useful you're right. We use them a straw, that's it so. The best definition of christian compassion that I ever read was useful and generous right, useful.

And generous right, and so I would say, the conservatives and ere the conservatives promote the useful end of the distribution and the liberals. Prick the general said, but I don't need to be brought together and I would say- and given that the agent you yourself have said, the problem, for example of hierarchies, exists on a far broader spectrum than the political that these the narrow that, when you were saying like on the whole left wing Democrat republican government or left wing or right wing governments have produced a similar mousing, an amount of inequality and they re sad. It's I'm not happy about this sad thing doesn't suggest, also told us that the range of solution that we behalf as is to limit its yes, it put it it it. I dont think it suggests that I think it Indonesia, that, yes and this is why I think that the problem of inequality has to be taken with more seriousness than its being taken, and the role of the individual and obviously you folks- and this is a clinical psychologist- is paramount because where I

I kind of believe when I think about some of us have a fluctuating vivid, grotesque right wing phenomena such as Donald Trump item blame people, revolver Donald Trump. I understand why people feel furious. I understand the emotion: anger rage and I suspect that all plays out, and so a troop of the material realm is a reflection of the activity in the psyche. team in emotion. How could it be otherwise, except for your cause? You say in lobsters and nature that suggests is even more profound door, the ordinary just ain't, while the psyches deeper than just human rights psyche, is all universal, conscious and unconscious. My so, I suppose what I said, well, I'm thinking is how what my interest is, how we haven't, you spend a. Let me ask you a question: what what do you think that you ve done in the last year that good? They are mostly small thing? Ok,

well, acts of kindness. When you have a daughter, you have a good relationship with her. So that seems to be a good thing. That's been beautiful, that's been so in fact, that is hugely significant. My new found ability to live at what one might refer to as an ordinary domestic life. My willingness to let go of other people's perception of me. These things have all the usually significant and my son of outside my dedication telescopes self improvement in areas that could still be regarded as selfish is one thing still. An improvement is of take exercise to golf to myself from that drug and alcohol free for like fifteen years and is at this point that the epiphany to begin to solve coalesce things, If you are perhaps most important, is to link. So suddenness when I've? When I can thought myself when I'm not continually thinking? What can I get when I don't look at the outside world is a resource when it, I think woken up person give me. What can they give me where I think I stay by the chapter on the problems in its call, it says: do what is meaningful, not what is expedient

two to view the world as a place of resources that can be delivered to you, it's in some sense to be expedient, is to take the short term it to take the approach of short term ratification. Something like that. Yes, self centered he's me, but he really stick to while it is materialistic, but it's also it's also it's not optimal and there is not eyes, and the reason for that is that it actually turns out like if we're going to have it. If we had a continuing the relationship, I would want to try to do a little bit more for you than you do for me and I could do that even purely selfishly- say, because if I did a little bit more for you than you did for me, you would want to keep interacting with me how's that all right so cause me and you, I think, get on relatively easy. We've found a frequency to communicate on, but say someone like the woman, both high in openness, opine, openness good service. Now, what about the woman on trial for news? You seemed more agitated and stuff like that,

let me move, we were actually having a conversation. We're trying to have a conversation. That's oriented towards discovering something you think she had to solve a series of linear fall through effects and future dropping them regarding yeah? Definitely that's exactly what have, except what there was one our new and you'll be mean to me, and she was a bit like air hounded you're here. What, when I compliment her on her ability to play being alone, the spot when she said the shadows, the wrong thing to do? Yes, yes, now do you aren't they make a clinical psychology is by in this moment. Do not feel- and I love is a question of you could easily to me feel like I've just want this, but that's the person has been front of you, that's the world, and that moment I think you up two hostile to that person a mercy but locker.

I don't feel like in in that moment it would. It would be of value and of service to nurture that person yeah. Yes. Well, I had a conversation with a friend of mine, very smart friend of mine. His name is Wayne risky and he's quite the he's, quite the character wing, but he was he watched and I've had people watch what I've been doing for the last eighteen months, lots of people and they report on what they think about what I'm doing, and so I asked Wayne about the interview and know he was happy about the fact that I conducted myself with a certain amount of calm and detachment, and but he did say something very interesting. There was this there is that kind of the culmination of that interview was where Kathy was challenging me about my right to say things that might offend someone, and, I said well, I said essentially, look you've based your whole career and this interview on that right. You know and concrete

Installations to you, that's what you should be doing and then she was taken aback by that and I said gotcha and she she knows she was sort of flustered and she said well yeah you did and Wayne said you know you could have instead of saying gotcha at that point, you could have taken the opportunity there too. To expand on that opening and to try to have genuine conversation star? There is on the line for dealing christian thing yeah, so I thought- and I thought about that a lot. I thought well that I think there were limitations in the format like by that time, we were about twenty five minutes into the interview you know so it was coming. It was coming close to an end and you know sometimes being funny, because I think it was reasonably funny. It was Naturally, witty sometimes that's, ok, too. Well, that's why comedians are useful because he s funny things

this, just in yeah. Hopefully they it. Hopefully they can get away with it right, and I think that that that that's often an extremely effective conversational manure. Evert because he actually, as a matter of fact, you said segment committed, isn't nothing, I'm just frying a few things at you now cause looking at the reason. I do this because I start doing a degree at a university could so as called religion and global politics and one of the main things I taught taught me there one of these I've entreat based. Firstly, I shall use this beer. Bullshit he's bear little Chap. I Borgia where some still require member it chinese empress system of tax on where a show and the stories suggests, I love that gas and I'm liking. It and part of the courses took who gets to determine what words like natural or power, who gets to determine how those terms are allocated. I write that who gets the determined was deemed religion

What about my own rejected to bill c? Sixteen because I wasn't going to let the radical left us decide the linguistic playing ground, then that's what they were trying to do you see there are their rational was we're on the side of transgender people. I thought no you're not you're trying to control the linguistic terms for innocence like this is where this conversation is a cure to the parallels. The conversation one hundred SAM Harris SAM Harris, where I found myself saying, is that why you so worries about this one particular issue over zealous nurse or extremism when it seems Power is actually situated elsewhere. To be the worst lost in that instance. I suppose, because that was the incidents that can you wife you? As you tell me, the radical left imposition of certain rules around language That was the reason for me, plus the fact that respect, but you have also continued to Fara or plough that furrow. Haven't you ever considered, Tenue down or so of a line that seems like Talia logically sensible with what happened there.

if he continues to like- and I know he agreed with your analysis of the word- provoked provocateur. If you don't know who the person is provoked, if they're not provoked, you not provocateur, so it's a difficult label to apply to anybody, but it seems to me that some when people say in our young miles opposite Kelly's of best to your work. I do say that this is time where miles need guidance and lie when there is in the Congo Elders R l- customs initiations routes to masculinity are in short supply. I can see that there is a real value in now, but I also feel that in this time of social contention, identity, politics being part of a cock, conflict the ideas that promote unity and the inhalation. If those kind of boundaries of foods we would be particularly in especially valuable, do you know

but I think the right way to do that is to concentrate on the individual. And so so let me answer that in two ways. The first thing the first issue is that it isn't self evident that the reason that my what I've been talking about has been attractive to young men. That might be like a fluke and it might be a fluke because almost everybody who watches Youtube is male yeah. So, like If I look at my Youtube audiences, eighty percent mail, but that's true of you to body and is a general search, is deliberately well right right and so, what's how you intermission well, because I want something I don't even more complicated than that, but I do know that, since my book has come out, I've been watching the demographics of my of my public audience that more and more and more women are coming out. So it's now to about sixty five thirty five from

Twenty and more more older people are coming out too. So I think a fair bit of it was a consequence of the fact that most of my exposure and was to the Youtube audience which happens to be mostly men now I do also think that there is a particular crisis with regards to what might be described as proper pathways to masculinity. I also think that's at play. Think, there's two factors, but I also I dont think Cathy Newman kind of went after me about this. You know said well, you know, if you're directing your message towards young men, which I wasn't but assuming The case isn't that divisive and I would say why dont think it is divisive because, first of all the masculine

in women also needs to be developed. Its very very important and the people who are the enemies of the masculine in men are also the enemies of the masculine and women. So if you overprotect your sons, let's say you don't want to: u dont want. Do you want to you you over protect them in part and and and weaken them, because you're afraid of their masculine energy, I do exactly the same thing to your daughters, so that that that so so so that the EVA and that female, a female child would similarly be disempowered, are definitely because you know the thing is hidden. This is another thing is that I am a cycle: nutrition, that's technically my my job and we study the the male measurement well and like it's a trick, who of psycho metrics that men and women are more the same then they are different. Now, it's funny, because I've been sorted position as someone who is constantly on about the difference

between men and women, men and women are more of the same than they are different, and what that means is that the development of masculinity and win perhaps it's not as important as the development of masculinity in men, but its damn important. It's like it's a close second, and so if people are pushing down masculinity as a virtuous mode of being, then it it has a detrimental effect on both sides agree with this about. I bet you excited determined lay there and biologically that there is. I think that is masculinity, and that thing masculinity prison in both female and male. Definitely I think again, one of the one of the challenges that this argument appears to be built around is of high rocky around those trade masculine avian synonymous, for example, with power, Well, here's the thing I wanted to bloody ask you check this out cause. Usually, I sit it on a Youtube video on my own, the evident forced to wonder if these stand up to scrutiny that give it a bit check. This

I should like in Sweden there banning sexually provocative advertising in areas. That kind of thing you hear a lot about like the object for cases of women. I said, of course I support that, because this matter being subjected to lots of sexually images, women has to a degree affected. Particular when I was younger mine, the logical conclusion that is pornography, the that doesn't really seem to be good thing it doesnt city of telling you. How do you know of any more elaborate pornography? I think he's? U every corrupting corrosive influence is enough for me. Personally, We voted. I sit this check basing our goes on. I feel they use of the female in advertising. A modification in general is the is the perverse he'd desire to worship the feminine. Then the gate and neglect

feminine has found its expression through consumerism and commerce because it is not being properly honoured. Socially, I I make up. I would have to think that I'd have to think Oh god, I would have to think about that good idea, urgent answered its an idea worth we're thinking about for a while like. If there are essential, if we have a central yearnings riverlike like e g, if we're, if the in another end of, if any, regional cultures. We would have diabetes to represent gender or and energies, their subtler than gender.

If there was a sense that socially, those energies are not being expressed on it, as you have implied with an eye on that wage, that's definitely the case. So one of the things that I've often thought about ideologies is that they're they're, like parasites on religious structures and if you're thinking that the the movement of feminine imagery up into the consumerist world is an analogue or is is at least in partial part, part a consequence of not having a symbolic. Place where that attraction can be expressed. I think that's probably right like it's like in the United States, is that the first family tends to be turned into king queen yeah, guess, there's no place for that symbolic projection. Yet the template requires it. Now I had once an analysis of the Soviet Union after the revolution that mimicked the man, monarchy. Can tyranny that preceded it. Just in a different form I ran a that yeah, so certainly the holy Trinity, even right. Yes, now marks Lenin Mild bark stolen depending on the tree,

and some would argue that witness of the Christianity couldn't take hold in Latin America until they embraced the pantheism of the saints and found the figure of the virgin until then like they know that certain cultures, the virgin had to be elevate because there isn't a place in the father. Some holy ghost for the Devil vanity deal. That's a union idea tat. I was the only. I definitely that that's that's. An original idea of youngsters that come into the trinity is missing a core title, and sometimes that's courtiers filled by the figure of the devil and sometimes filled by the figure of the woman. So it's like it's like the houses in and Harry Potter, right, just three good houses and slithering his enemies in the bottom, what year did sir? It's a reflection of the same kind of Mandela structure as pretty cool, it's very cool, very cool have a place at the table for the serpent. You have had a place. What happens and sleeping beauty right in Disney movie. I don't let in that they dont ground that that's right. They didn't invite her to the christening and so their door.

it ends up unconscious, Don't let the terrible mother come to the parties. How turns up uncongenial domestic normal everyday quoted in lives was the terrible mother. How does objection overprotection down over the table. I have a late fall out of hello yup. That's right! You do do the least amount possible for your children. It's something like that. That's not neglect! It's nothing like that. It's like the old age home adage look. I've seen this lots of times with parents is like. Maybe you have to get your kid dressed up to go out what takes a long time if you you could do it in all its a lot faster just to do it, it's a lot faster, not to have them set the table. It's a lot faster to do things for them, plus, there's there's also- and this is part of the devouring mother Archetype- is like. If you devoted your life to a child, perhaps more than you should it lets say, then it's very difficult to let the child go beating like what what

their left for you and so there's this terrible temptation to play. While all do everything for you, but you never leave me for the child to say, yeah, that's right, that's exactly the right place to make for that. That's a very terrible thing, and you see that again and Disney sleeping where maleficent has the heroic prince in the dungeon and laughing at him. I just knock and let him go until his ancient and that and that's a consequence. Where else can we see the devouring mother was some good pop cultural examples of Disney movies. All the time always go in in the little in the little mermaid Ursula is the devouring mother. The devouring mother shows up all the time. She's the witch she's, the swamp, dweller she's, the she's, the evil queen in snow white, was the counterpoint. The fairy godmother fairy godmothers, one yeah, that's the positive feminine and that that happened to that archetype manifests itself all over the place as well. The the the fairy godmothers a good one and you see in in in in sleeping beauty, there's three of them three

ferries that take care of the princess in the forest. There there, the archetype of the positive feminine. So so we always see one of the things that distinguishes a religious viewpoint from an ideological viewpoint. Is that there's always a representation of nature or the unknown Always you need one and, if that's what it I've representatives in highly ghosting, Christianity is not well in Christianity. I'd have to think about that for a minute part it partly it's the virgin mother, it's mostly positive representation in Christianity so and that that would be the representation of the benevolence of nature. Something like that. So that's the unknown, but the religious representation. You have the positive and the positive and negative aspect of the feminine. That's also the unknown. You have the power. Of a negative aspect of them of the of the state. That's the wise king. In the end, the devouring king and you have the positive and negative representation of the individual and

isn't in its religious in some sense hard to explain why in a very short period of time, but a religious viewpoint always gives you a balanced viewpoint. That's what makes it religious It's like there's a positive element that is intensely positive, but there's the negative counterpart and there's a positive. So let me give you an example here, and I can give you an example of how this he's out. There are continually the frontier myth that settled. The west was essentially heroic, individual positive, bringing the benefits of order and culture positive to the desolate baron wastelands of the West, okay, so its positive, individual, positive culture negative. Ok, so that's an ideology, but it's a powerful story, because it's true heroic individual bearer of culture, Baron desolate wasteland, it's true, but one of the thing,

that eventually generated was a counter narrative and that, because it was only half the story that counter narrative was the environmental narrative which was rapacious individual, bringing pillaging society into benevolent nature and they The recast, the indigenous people that lived on those land masses are savages, no taught you out of the same rights, whether we really can indeed well, and there were two directly to competing tendencies. In the western mind, one was the Savage. That was the riverside exactly and the other was denizen in a barbaric denizen of the unhappy Wasteland Sociopath Army, one out invitations. The romantic idea of the noble savage becomes a whimsical new age thing, never one and the other one, the denizen barbarian burying became justification for genocide, or at least we look, wrap up cause filled. It the logical acts in a variety of ways were adopted. Will impersonal, Professor Jordan, these in that, and I will work out a big you up enough with there with your problem. Thank you. Oh title.

we're much of really found it fascinating conversation you have you enjoy. The conversation was bridge that preceded the invitation. Hope you enjoy that episode of under the skin remember is bought you by my rebirth to come and see me in Stockholm, they sat on the seventeen for the war from fear or in Amsterdam, even if your english guy lamps of amateurs they get out, a tiny minds. They don't do that if you ve got a drug problem in a stake fully sentient conscious and come and see me at the FS in Amsterdam, this Tuesday, so Stockholm on I Amsterdam on Tuesday come on the road abandon your life. Follow me, give up your jobs and families to the world. Learning this great spontaneous, improvised wisdom also check out my book. Recovery can get out on Amazon or you can listen to it on audible, thanks very much for listening. Finally give us five STAR also on Stitcher or Itunes or wherever you listen and tell your friends to listen to his podcast. You know deep down

neatly all behind the all. Beyond the oh, I love you. Thank you.