« Unlocking Us with Brené Brown

Brené with Emily and Amelia Nagoski on Burnout and How to Complete the Stress Cycle


Burnout. We're all experiencing it and we're all desperate for a way through it. In this episode, I talk to Drs. Emily and Amelia Nagoski about what causes burnout, what it does to our bodies, and how we can move through the emotional exhaustion. This has been a game-changer for me and for my family!

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hi everyone i'm brene brown and this is unlocking ass in this episode talking to doctors emily and amelia nagoski about there really powerful book out and let me tell you something burn out is i know i'm with you it's all of us are ended i think right now and it's no joke we talk what causes burn out what it does to our bodies and also how burn out really an emotional exhaustion down to the neurobiology of emotion what happens to us when we stuck in an emotion did you know that there is a beginning middle and end and what the things that causes burn out an emotional exhaustion the most is when we get stuck in that tunnel we dont complete the whole cycle this is just this made so much sense to me and i'm recordings and true
probably bear it when you think ten days after two weeks i've done the interview i put these strategies into practice in my life it has made a difference going to talk about the seven easy ways to work through incomplete distrust cycle and again i've been doing it and it is made it wow it's i can't i'm just a camel i didn't know this and it's so tactical and helpful and now is my middle name sometimes so this is conversation that you will not want to mess this episode of unlocking us is brought to you by target at target each you put in your cart brings more good to life like a coffee brand opens more eyes to black business natural laundry detergent that puts a lighter load on the planet wheelchair friendly halloween customs that said make them
in emotion and makeup that celebrates beauty in every shade here the good you want is always within reach because target believes in good we can all afford doing your dreams means going places in life and going places often means driving save time percent on your car insurance just written rolling in the american family insurance know your drive programme then earn up to a twenty percent discount just for driving safely wherever you're headed you need the right tools to protect you and your family so take control over what you pay for car insurance contact your local agents or visit am pham dotcom slash know your drive to learn more products not available in every state discount term supply american family mutual insurance company s eye and its operating companies six thousand american parkway madison
was content ok let me tell you about our gas before we get started so emily nego ski doktor emily nego ski is a sex educator and author of the new york times best seller come as you are rising new science that will transform your sex life best title ever p s our job is to teach people to live with competence enjoy in their bodies amelia nagoski dma which transferred doctorate of musical arts is an associate professor and coordinator of music at western new england university her job as describes at which i love is to run around waving her arms and making bunny noises and generally doing whatever it takes to help singers get in touch with their internal experience in that way her work is very much like emily's emily's masters degree is in counselling emilius is in coral conducting one they realize they both got graduate degrees and basically how to listen and feel feelings which they say
may say something about their childhood they both live in then with a variety of cats and dogs and spouses yes they are twins yes they are identical twins and yes one time they did pretend to be each other and it did not go well and as the older sister of twins i can tell you that plan only works on tv shows i write with japan burn out i listened jump right in the name the book is burn out a graphically repeats itself so i like to call the book burnout burnout burnout burnout but the secret to unlocking the stress cycle here's what i want to say to all my listeners do you know all the time is ripe said things like i was doing this interview it s kind of weird cause he turned it into like kind of a personal coaching session and i was like we should get more specific
forget all that shit right now i need this work i've got a million questions for you sir let me start with this question before we dig in to my multiply tagged highlighted buck what ledge you you writing a book on burn out yeah it's a very specific story i wrote a book about the science of women sexuality called come as you are this pressing new science will transform your sex life it was a sex book but because the best predictor women's sexual well being is surprise her over well being there's a chapter about stress and motion processing and in the six months after that book came out i travelled across the country and our give all these talks about science sexual pleasure and i kept hearing from women after the talk they come out to and be like yeah all that sex stuff is great emily thanks for but you know the one chapter that changed everything for me was the one about stress and emotions and i was surprised i had worked really
on the saxons part of it so i brought them story to amelia and i was surprised at all because i was a conductor and i had been to a conservatory and musical training you are specifically trained and how to feel feelings and process them and express them on stage so i know that it's a learned skill and i also know that when you learn that skill for stage that doesn't necessarily translate into knowing how to do it in your real life and i had to add emily is the one who got me started on learning how to do that so i reminded her of that and said yes of course people that changes their lives a change mind actually saved my life twice which insert the long story about amelia being in grad school and hospitalized twice with undiagnosed diagnosable pain and they ultimately removed her appendix she was in a doctoral program that i'm just going to
cause i know she won't she's the only woman who has ever finished this programme damn that's how misogynist the field of classical music is and so imagine your identical twin crying in a hurry little gown and europe professional health educator and you don't know what's wrong so i started giving her book upholstery management because it's what i heard what i had was peer reviewed research here and she started reed it and she called me on the phone crying like this book is books have feelings exist in your body is tat how could you not now literally i'm a conductor and my job is to express emotions with my body but look if i had
nice that emotions or in my body all the time that's a lot of emotion from mine whole life that's in my body and if i had been if i've been recognising that time might have led to some suffering turns out turns out what i learned is that you you need a turned toward that difficult stuff that actually it feels hard in the moment but it did in the big picture it leaves suffering suffering so we have experience with her in grad school and she said yeah remember that time that it saved my life and we should write a book about that ends that sir that's how we got started that was in october twenty fifteen i absolutely like almost almost speechless and gonna have to know that that's very rare for me i study he for for living and me i have four hundred thousand pieces of data and i'm understanding things about myself for the first time i am reading your book
you don't know like what's happening in my heart right now so here's way i write i write a chunk i printed out i walk around my house reading it out loud to a specific audience sometimes i'm thinking of a specific student who i have this conversation with sometimes i'm thinking of beyond say and there were is when i was like with this really makes to rename round like if she read this book which feel scene and understood which you feel like you was gaining insight better be oh hell yes like gas and i'm working on new research on emotion right now and i just the way you right i dont know if it is a little bit of a love affair i have to tell all of our community listening because not only you know it's just swirl of period viewed research amazing synthesis music and pop culture tv references it's like all good things are right in here let's start with herbert freudenberg her ok are heard freudenberger one nineteen seventy five gave us a death
mission of burn out tell us about three components so the three components of our not our emotional exhaustion ups decree sense of accomplishment and us deeper civilization deeper analyse asian i'm just gonna like lay this out here that i am a covert long holler and the brain fog is real so sometimes like i'm staring at things i don't member what i was doing ok of arctic it up and when i went on the web and amber i have a sister did like be the rain four sisters that took up things i am so i'm so glad on this side of it and i'm so sorry that is a long haul because i've got a couple of long holler friends that it's just people do not understand what's involved so those three things herbert frightened burger with the decree sense of accomplishments emotional exhaustion and depersonalization okay so emotional exhaustion i think we are this definition that you put in here which i guess is foreign burgers the fatigue that comes from
hearing too much for too long personalization the depletion of empathy caring and compassion and then decrease sense of accomplishment the unconquerable sense of futility feel that nothing you do makes any difference here and in particular for women it's the its emotional exhaustion ok so that's the thing that killed me so burn out super high across everyone i would imagine now in the time of covid that burnout is a do we have any data that's telling us what's going on with burnout right now not to my knowledge specifically most of research on burn out it began about professional burn out in its stead about professional burn out for a really long time the icy tens definitions about professional burn out it's only in the last five years or so that work on parole you'll burn out has begun though you can imagine exactly how those held up for parents and caregivers of all kinds and
we know for sure from journalistic reporting that's been done that women are being laden with the lion's share of the adapting that has to be done when people are working from home when people lose work when schooling has to happen at home whose job is all that stuff it's even in the countries where it is the most fair and that includes united states it still massively increasing women's workload and not matter so we've got the unpaid second shift and the unpaid third and fourth shifts now exactly uncovered for sure like a pandemic and all the other that's going on in the world are chronic stressors and there's a lot of new kind of writing about compassion fatigue is people who art sick are always worried about the people around them getting sick and yeah it's some it's a perfect storm for burning and vicarious translation i'm really worried about the caregivers in the medical providers who ve been exposed to just image since your rooms and i see use patch of people
and witnessing death on a scale that is just not something we see in the united states ever before yeah i agree so when i read people helping people just high rates of burn out in you right here in the forty years since the original formulation research has found that it's the first element and burn out emotional exhaustion that's most strongly linked to negative impacts on our health on relationships and work especially for women so then you take us into a primmer on emotion i think could be helpful for folks here too you know what is emotion i this is the part of the book that twenty we needed to hear because when i was twenty i was not convinced unresented emotions were like a real thing i sort of this image of emotions is like an airy fairy somewhere out their feelings
very cozy and yes and i needed science in my mid thirties to prove to me that emotions were real even though i was literally a professional musician and expressing emotion with my job i guess the performance aspect of it made me able to separate myself okay emotions are cycles that happen in your body they are neurological events and why i say neurological i mean not just happening in your brain but your whole nervous system the intelligence of your body extends to your nervous system from the top of your head to the tip of your toes and also beyond your skin emotions are an involuntary neurological response they have a beginning a middle and an end i just found that so helpful the metaphorical version is feelings or tunnels you have to go all the way through them to get the light at the end i have that double highlighted here i have a couple of things just about every system in your body responds to the chemical and electrical cascade activated by emotion
motion is automatic instantaneous it happens everywhere and affects everything itself funny to me in my work how much time i spend trying to help people understand people really want to believe and myself included and i think my twenty year old would have liked your twenty year old that we are cognitive rational beings who occasion feel when truth is and we know this now from pet imaging for the last decade we are emotional beings who on occasion think so i'm going to quote this from the book i just want everyone to take a deep breath like everyone lots of walkers runners listen to the pot ass a lot of people driving so like pull over you may have a moment here are just step upon a curb
in short emotions are tunnels if you go all the way through them you get to the light at the end exhaustion happens when we get stuck in an emotion what the hey ho well i know right okay i to keep it being here for just a second carriage all to you we make tax simply because we are constantly being exposed to situations that activate emotion you know our crushes here and all day every day if only in our since it we're trapped in our own longing for our crash are we return to a stressful job every single day which is no wonder helping professions are so exhausting you're connected with people in need all day day after day sometimes we get stuck because we can't find our way through the most difficult feelings rage grieved despair plus ness i would probably maybe add shame to that may be true
treacherous to move through alone we get lost i love this and need some one else a loving presence to help us find our way through many of us are trapped in this way because of a problem we call human give her syndrome so i want to go back to this exhaustion happens when we get stuck in an emotion oh my god emotions a beginning a middle at an end a lot of us are taught to believe that if we fix the problem that cause the stress or the emotion then we will have dealt with emotion itself it turns out no there is disconnect in the world we live in now between the behaviors that deal with the thing in our lives like the crush across the room where there are things we can do to you're with an almost none of those things like when you like bravely go up and are like high here's my name how are you
and then you leave the room do you suddenly feel like a peaceful relaxed with this evaluation i feel like i took a step forward and i know you have to go screamin screaming silence in the bathroom and call your friends because you still have to deal with them which is a separate step from dealing with the issue that was activating the emotion in your body most of us are taught to believe other peoples news about our bodies more than we believe what our bodies them those are trying to say to us and so we believe and we are told that well i mean you dealt with the issue so you should be done feeling by now so why do you still while these feelings we do want to hear about your feelings anymore you're feeling should be done because the situation is done so let it go we are so tired of hearing about you in your feelings and you're like i must begin if myself emotionally so that i do not interfere with anyone else's well being and so i am now officially my feelings and you smile and you
shove it down into some organ system i don't know which one and then it lives inside you and it metastasizes right yeah it's not necessarily the worst choice you could make in that moment in some moments smiling and being polite and walking away and containing and shutting it all down and hiding it can make you safer like you don't want to confront every douchebag on the side of the road who yields hey baby nice tips like that would be safe so you squash it down and you hide it and then you get home and you're like i'm such a strong badass like i just ignored that guy no i mean yes but now finish that feeling go back and revisit it and go through the whole cycle complete get the rest of it the time ok before we start talking about peace around separating stressors and stress let's talk about what human giver syndrome
damn this syndrome human giver syndrome yeah absolutely it's a phrase we adapted from a book by a moral philosopher named kate man the book is called down girl the logic of miss agony and it's an intense dark greed of moral philosophy but its it short and readable were highly recommended it's fantastic but she does lay out in that book a moral system where a world contains two kinds of beings human beings whose job it is to live to express to be their humanity and they have a moral obligation to acquire whatever resources it takes in order to accomplish their moral obligation and on the other hand the human givers whose moral obligation it is to give their humanity their time their lives their bodies their feelings to the
when beings guess which won the women are this is a cartoon version yeah i'm like no no ma am no man yes this is terrible emily and i are both married two men who are givers day they turned towards our needs with kindness in compassion they do not feel entitled so absolute zero men in the world who do not feel this way in the large scale though a lot of us have human giver syndrome men and women alike where we honestly do believe that it is the moral obligation of women to be at all times pretty happy com generous and attentive to the needs of others and if we at any time fail in our moral obligation to be pretty happy com generous and news of others then we deserve to be punished and if there's no one around to punish us we will do go ahead and punish ourselves and that includes if you're married like we are two fellow givers who are not going to punish us for falling short of it but as people with human giver syndrome if our partners won't
let us up we'll just go ahead and like start whipping ourselves for the ways we fell short of being able to like save humanity and everyone in the world yeah so this is part of i'm thinking about this and kind of gender non conforming terms i think this idea when i was reading the human giver syndrome anyone who find themselves wanting to be aligned with feminine cultural norms this is a part of that durham like right i mean it's a ghost to the research that i found probably maybe six or seven years ago were still said cultural norms for femininity in the u s are still nice quiet spending all resources on appearance it really just stay quiet and small and just take care of other people basically yeah and
kate man is clear that this is an intersection will issue so for people of color they are expected to be human giver to anyone who is white and one of the grotesque ways that this plays out is that white women feeling so wrapped by whom give her syndrome take on the role human being and feeling entitled to take anything they want to from people of color from people with disabilities from immigrants from poor people in her new book entitled came using the language of leaning down instead of leaning in way some women leaned down on immigrants and brought him women in america so one of them important things we can do is recognise it for what it is and heal the damage is doing to us so that we don't take damage out on anybody else till we dont leaned down right ok so what we understand so far worse than still
production nowhere interduction but i just want to i want to lay this out because the way the book as laid out i have to say as a writer is really smart and it walks people through this so so we know that emotions are real their science there neurobiology therein our body they affect every we do all the time we know that have a beginning middle an end and that and we know that we have to move all the way through them and order to what happened so we get stuck in the middle of the motion tunnel what is the outcome of that here too in the hospital like media the reason that happens if we take stress as the exemplar emotion you think about all the things that lets to just the example of the cardiovascular system which we do in chapter one year blood vessels are designed to tolerate
steady sort of pulsing stream of blood flow and when your adrenaline level goes up your blood pressure goes up and it's like fire hose spraying in your blood vessels and your system is but into dealing with that when at last as long as it's supposed to environment where we evolved which means it's gonna last like maybe ten minutes and then be over but we stay in this state of chronically elevated stress for hours days weeks months years at a time and this causes wear and tear on our blood vessels which causes weak places for plaques to develop and this is how stress causes heart disease and that's just one of the system's take your endocrine system is another one your digestive system your digestive system is one of my favorites because it is so common for stress to open people's digestive systems fascinating things happen where your upper digestive system slows down but your lower digestive system tracked speeds up
then you get ibs it just totally makes sense okay so let's start with the chapter on complete decide i just need everyone to get it and read it will it it really is i'm not like a not like and journalists were i just any that comes out i have to talk to the people i'm a podcaster i just get to talk about books that make a difference and so this is one of them tell me define and different create stress and stressors forming so we're stressors are the things that activate the stress response they are most of them are extra also this is like work kids money whites her patriarchal rapidly exploitative lake capitalism small things that activate this so some of them are internal things like a body self criticism and trauma history and they activate the stress response distress itself is what happens in your body if this chemicals do that gets activated in response to
and it's designed to help us evolution airily survivors stress like being chased by a lion or charged by hippo one of his favorite animals is hippos always make sure to say that hippos are the most dangerous land memos on earth except for humans so you could be trampled by a hippo and when you being chased by a hippo what do you do i run yet you totally run absolutely and imagine you managed to run away from the hippocampus hippos actually don't have a lot of stamina so you run all the way and somebody waves you into through their door and you and you shot it and the hippo gives up like never mind and just runs away and you look at this person who just saved your life and you feel this rush to exhaustion but this joy to be alive and it seems like ash sun is shining brighter and you love your friends and family in you're so grateful to be alive it's easy think that it is the hippo going away that made that happen but it's not it's the running and the connection your body
only knows what those behaviors are those behaviors are what say to your body you have escaped from the stressful sitting and your body is now a safe place for you to be it is the behavior not the change in your environment that triggers the physiological change so here's what i think we need a kind of go and shoe slow motion and walk p through this moving this stressors does not mean distress cycle is complete yeah i ain't two things it means that you don't have to wait for all the stressors to go away
or you can start to feel better but it also means that when the stressors do go away it means you have to deal with the stress itself separately i'm until story about when we were when the because first released in the united kingdom and ireland we talked with the journalists in ireland who had been part of the movement to legalise abortion in ireland and it had just recently passed and she was telling us that she read this part of the balkans she thought this explains a lot because they had invested so much in their activism and going door to door working so hard and the good thing happened the stress or went away they were all done and they thought they would feel amazing but no they all collapsed they all got sick they all felt terrible even though this terrific news had happened they fell bad and it was because all the stress of that work even though the stress or was gone they hadn't done stress in their bodies so this is so interesting because i meant or a lot of women investor
jeanne smashers and so short students you're getting phds and so i who warn the doctoral students that when you turn your dissertation in you're really done with your rewrites in everything you're going to hit a wall and it's going to be painful they're like i'm not hitting a wall i'm going to the caymans and you know what they all get sick and so okay i want to read this jesus in in the on page seven ya you have to do something that signals to your body that you are safe or else you'll stay in that state with neuro chemical and hormones degrading but never shifting enter relaxation your digest system immune system cardiovascular system must
yellow skeletal system and reproductive system never get the signal that their safe because your body speaks body language your body doesn't know that filing your taxes mean that you ve accomplished something your body doesn't know that a change of legislation means that you now have autonomy over your bodies choices you need to speak body language and fulfil the that is intended to fulfil people do not get that we cannot separate the body from affect emotion i mean we caught feelings right directly exactly and its actual with the especially when it comes to illness and stress its there's an extra layer of complexity your central now system only has a limited amount of bandwidth if you're super stress there's a lot of noise in the highway of your brain and spine and your immune system communicates with you through your nervous system via symptoms so if you symptoms are like hey you have a headache hey you're exhausted your brain is like one
i can't hear you over the noise of all this exhaustion and stress are you trying to tell me something what let me finish this project and then i'll listen to you serious all along you hand in your dissertation you're walking this is not a personal story at all you're walking on for having turning your dissertation and you're like i'm really feel and now well and you get you before by the time you get home and congestion headache by the time you lay down and then you spend the next two days and bad but you are it's not because you all of a sudden got sick you are like all along but now your immune system can finally get its voice heard over the noise of all the stress this episode of unlocking us is brought to you by target at target each damn you put in your heart brings more good to life like a coffee brand opens more eyes to black business natural laundry detergent that puts a lighter load on the planet wheelchair friendly halloween customs that said make
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a wholesome food don't miss out on all the blue apron has to offer this far see what's on this week's menu and thirty dollars off the your first to deliveries when you visit lou apron got come slash unlike that's blue apron outcome slash unlocked the stress itself will kill you faster than the stress our will unless you do something to complete this stress response cycle while your managing the days stress or your body is managing the days stress and it's also absolutely essential to your well being the way sleeping in eating our essential that you give your body the resources it needs to complete the stress response cycle that has been activated okay so why we get stuck number one telling about chronic strasser chronic stress this is this dreadful word like you working on a big work project and you were
really hard and you know you got to complete complete the response cycle cycle that was activated by this big project at the end of the day you get home and you do whatever the thing like you have a thing that you know complete your stress response cycle like when you do we're gonna feel better renee yes walking yes you do you're walking you like i feel so much better and you hang on your family and new it's a great and then you get a good night's sleep in you wake up in the morning and there the big projects free to work on again and so you have to do the same thing to like during off the stress again and if your stress level out pieces resources you have available to drain off the stress it will keep accumulating andrews can take a deeper okay number two the second
then we get stuck social appropriateness yeah yeah the expectations in particular for women are that we never show anger never express any intense emotions at all remember we have to be pretty happy and yet calm generous and attention to these of others so in order to be safe in the world in order to meet people's expectations in order to not get fired from our jobs we have to smile and be nice to the asshole and the smart safe thing to do in those moments is to bury that shit down and save it for me at home and then take it out on your husband is that hopefully hopefully you go for a walk and eat something delicious and hug your family and yes but that is what would happen unless you deal with it so number three is kind of tied to number two in some ways so social appropriate so the reason we get stuck one chronic stress to social appropriate and three safety and this is the guy that's yelling yelling at you from the street
and you just can't turn and confront that baby won't you smile and you want to play that guy in the face but wood punching him in the face actually make you safer probably not it would probably escalate the situation so the safe choice is to hang on to that for a minute until you get some place safe and then deal with the stress sir of the deal with the stress on its own separately i want you to and i realize i mean knowledge and going into this we're gonna get through like the first three chapters of this book but i think this is enough to change your life then you can get the book i want you to walk us through fight flight and then para sympathetically freeze can you can you tell us about that and how that relates to all of us so fight and flight are the things were used to hearing about when we were in high school we learned from mr willi our science teacher about the fighter flight response which is the sympathetic go action in less than a second your brain assesses a potential threat as
that your most likely to survive by running away in which case you get the flight emotions so this is everything from worry too eighty two fear to terror all the different fears depending on the intensity of what's happening and these are the avoid responses so motivates you to be active in running away and then sometimes in that split second assess middle think this is a threat you can survive best by fighting and this is an approach motivation that's like everything from irritation and annoyance up through frustration and anger and ultimately rage that pushes you to move toward the threat so that you can destroy it and these are both so action oriented either move away or move toward in order to like a deal with the stress or and then under threat circumstances so your brain assesses the threatened like nope you are
slow to run you are too weak to fight your best chance of survival here is to slam on the breaks in the middle of all this week and play dead so when you see this in the wild the is running away from the line the lions teeth jump into the of the gazelle and what of the i'll do it can't keep running the line has its teeth in her so she whom flocked to the ground the lion feels all smug and wanders the way to got her cubs to feed on the gazelle and this is when the glorious thing happens so the gas pedal the sympathetic nervous system has been like pressed down hard and right in the middle of that big gas petals stress response ban the brakes lands on everything shuts down when the threat goes away that break begins gently to come off and when you're watching the gazelle lying there it will start to shudder and its possible shake in the air at whose well shaken what's happening is all the motor patterns that were activate
but got interrupted as the break comes off they're completing their cycle they're moving through what was already activated in the central nervous system in issues finishing out what was already there so it purges then the gazelle stands up and it shakes itself off and goes to and it rots away that's when the threat goes away the break and i'm luck and the animal moves through the rest of it and this happens for humans often in the case of trauma one of the best examples of it there's a brilliant book called in an unspoken waste by peter levine who's the originators manning experiencing yeah he tells the story of being hit by a car he's a pedestrian the road is hit by a car and he very vividly recounts the experience of feeling the pair sympathetic break sympathetic means with emotion parasympathetic means beyond emotion so everything shut
down this is a life red situation he lies there he's in the ambulance he noticed is that he can feel the brake on marking cause he does this for a living and he like lets us shoulders shrug up and he let his hands push flat out any these small movement of allowing his body to release thing that it needs to do a lot of people who have surgery when they come out from under anesthesia which is medically induced freeze will shiver and shake if you like they're comin they might be called but alive it is that shivered is part of their break releasing and allowing them to shift back up into a healthy state all of that is final
and it works in gazelles networks in human beings to but there is a barrier that gets in our way we all know about fighting flight most of us even though about freeze anybody who read the book to assist yet so but the problem is that there is a kind of a hierarchy of social ranking system where we think that fight is better and if you can't find well at least you could flee and if you freeze that means that you are weak and you fail there all morally neutral they're all things that happened because you're nervous system in its wisdom made a decision and it's not that when you freeze your weak or you failed when you freeze your body saved you freezes just as heroic as fight or flight and the shame the associated with flight and especially freeze is a thing that stops people from recovering from trauma because they don't allow themselves to be living because their ashamed it's really interesting i think that's true because shame often hijacks that's it
system and the shame often can move us into flight fight or a freeze and and people always say yeah i'd rather respond to shame with shame at others responder gresham with aggression i'd rather walk away but when i do that whole like bunny in the headlines thing and i can't think of anything to say until later as my brain shuts down that's just weak i mean so there is that hierarchical syn of the detail folks fight then they run but only the weak people freeze its the dear and the headlight kind of thing when this our body knows bass what to do in these circumstances you know it's just it's hard this by the way is how in the book is would be like here's the thing that happens in your body and be like and then there's all these israel barriers to us actually using this information so let's make sure we talk about the barriers so that people can get around him which goes that original question which is emily
how do you not know this and i'm like nobody knows this and nothing but i learned most route writing a book is the real answer is turning toward the difficult feelings with kindness in compassion so whether you fight or flee or freeze and if you have feelings about which when you're nervous system chose to do that's all fine turned toward that with care missy compassion and let yourself finish the feelings and complete the cycle so let's talk about that i mean i love that i love that you as a social order that's my training so it's cycle logical sociological its cultural its biological its systems of oppression so to me the book text around everything you do is what makes the book so good let's talk about the most efficient way to complete our cycles most efficient physical activity what kind of physical activity literally any movement of your body for me it's walking days when i was younger it was running and long distance cycling it has also been brought clan
i am a natural athlete i absolutely have had the runner's high experience like even days when i don't feel like it i look at my shoes to i know that if i just put on my shoes and i go by the time they get back i'm gonna feel so much better amelia i thought i was making it up when i said that never had that experience so it can be any form of physical activity can be dancing it out in your living room it can be standing up from your desk tensing every muscle really hard every muscle in your body until their shaking and begging for you stop and then you go you flop down you're like hand on the ground and let your body so can release and that even by itself is going to begin to release the physical chemical stuff that was happening in your body with the stress any movement your body alright so number one is physical activity now for two breathing let's talk about breathing
breathing down regulates you're nervous system especially when you can take a slow breath in and especially a slow long breath out all the way to the end of the german among those contracts that's you know your you're engaging the parasympathetic nervous system sit down regulate the central nervous system it is the gentlest way in to completing the status bar cycle so if your person who has survived trauma neglect abused you have significant history of avarice childhood experiences a great place to start so that you don't get overwhelmed is just with tuning into your breath like a minute and a half worth of like breathing in and letting your breath go out and your thoughts go all over the place where you were doing this that is normal that is the point you know is that your thoughts when all over the place and you return your attention to the breath coming into your body and the breath of giving
your body when you don't have time to do anything else it can also just siphon off the very worst of it so that your well enough to continue through the situation yes if all you do is brief and you dont attend to your thoughts you don't the mind from his aspect if you just physically brief there's a highly evidence based strategy for completing stretched i cycle for down regulating the nervous system it doesn't have to be any work at all it does not be any effort you just breathe i just it so hard because not only am i a super stressed out person me i'm a breath holder you're not alone yeah so that's so this is really helpful we really underestimate the power of brass don't win yes yes yes even when i first started learning the stuff like everything i under estimated how powerful it was it sounded too easy it sounded like it was kind of just
had made up saying it's absolutely its how's your biology works its how your body function is it so funny too because i write about breath in one of the most recent books because i was really staying at around how to regulate identify emotion had the people who teach at the most are just two camps i learned yoga instruct do a lot of breath work and special forces military yes probably sure about completing the stress cycle but it's also about being able to focus and recognize fear and emotion so really interesting to me ok numbers so we ve got physical active breathing number three positive social interaction had we complete distress cycle there the part of the story where the hippo is chasing you and somebody lets you into their place and the hippo gets held back because somebody welcomed you in and the first thing you do when you feel safe is you
jump up and down and hug each other and my five infest bump that natural inclination to connect with other people tell your body that it is somewhere safe even if you are not physically in a place that is your actual home your body can get the feeling of home because it's with someone who is your home and that can be lightweight it can be a positive social interaction with your barista hey i like your earrings you know just that much tells your body the world is a safe place ok i love the next one laughter yeah the caviar with this is it can't be most laughter is social posed laughter it serves a function of light lubricating conversations and making everybody it can't be that fake laughter it has to be the slightly embarrassing like mouth hanging open
belly jiggling uncontrolled ridiculous laughter that really takes over your body like you can't stop laughing that laughter will take you all the way through the let me stress cycle oh my god oh i just think that is so good i can even help just a remedies with someone about time that you left that way i just think this i just know this is true i love this you quote sophie scott his inert scientist here that laughter is an ancient evolutionary system that mammals have evolved to make maintain social bonds and regulate emotions s true comes up in my shame work a lot too because shame is a universal affect our express our experience and laughter isn't a universal language and so it's really even my therapist friends you run very difficult groups like sexual assault survivor groups are into survivor groups please tell me they can measure the progress of the group by the amount of laughter
and it's not a kind that's like posing or the social labour it's also not that uncomfortable pained like laugh as self deprecation or deflection its knowing laughter it's like it's almost sometimes laughing at the absurdity that we think we're the only ones you know it's just laughter is just important okay next i love ass i love this and i love what you write about it you write affection is the next one warm hug in a safe entrusting context can do as much to help your body feel like it has escaped a threat as jogging a couple of miles and it's less sweaty yeah the twenty second hug with is there is a lot of different research disciplines at this comes from heard about from mrs anna senza whose a sex therapist in new york city she calls it huh until relaxed wearing
the whole your body against someone else's and it's not you're not like leaning into each other's of one person stepped back the other person will fall down your both holding your own centre of gravity you wrap your arms around each other any stay there breathing together until you feel the shift in your chemistry and natural are you going have come home to a place of safety i know that because my body feel safe with his other person pressed against it it's loveliest read this research suggests a twenty second hug can change or hormones lower your blood pressure and heart rate and improve mood all of which are reflected in the post hug increase in the social bonding hormone oxytocin and is not about twenty seconds it's not about time it's about leaning in maintaining your own center of gravity and just in and intimacy of that it's a bridging
awkwardly long time to hug somebody it really is but i like it i like it all the tips we give is the one people are most likely to say that they incorporate into their life yeah i believe that okay the last two a big old cross anyone who says crying doesn't solve anything doesn't know the difference between dealing with the stress and do
and with the situation that causes the stress say more yeah it's pretty rare that crying will solve a problem or eliminate a stress or that's true that doesn't sol fat but what it can do is when the emotion takes over your body that's a physical expression of stress of emotion and when you allow it to complete its completing structures one cycle and letting the emotion go all the way to the un's what's not getting trapped in your body and there is a kind of a trick to how to do this if it's hard for you it was hard for me i had to learn how from a fair best how to cry which is to whatever is overwhelming you and flooding you and causing you to cry you set that information aside for a moment and you turned toward the physical experience of crying how how how many tears how hot do i feel how where's the tension in my body how much not is pouring out of my nose and you just pay attention to this institution of the crying itself with
feeding it more thought about the thing that sparked the crime and ended ends its cycle it begins on its own it has a mill and it ends on its own only just takes it met two people are afraid that if they let themselves last forever but if you dont continue feeding it thoughts about the cause of the stress able to really five minutes maybe ok the last one i'm such a fan of this one creative expression you need to meet to assess the conductor yeah i mean so many people go into the arts in the first place because they discover some time in their youth they just into it their way to feeling how good it feels to take whatever's inside you and put it outside you
paint or in yarn or in sketching or in designing a an engineering a process to make something work look there's only so much energy in the world right it's cannot be created or destroyed everything you make that made out of your energy is partially made out of you and it's made out of whatever experiences you had and so you can knit little booties and they can be made of your rage and you can get your rage out of your body by creating something and putting it in a safe place outside of yourself or maybe it could even do somebody some good man we had a very good thing my friend died and he was in high school just a freak accident and his mother was a dancer and so her therapists had her choreograph an entire dance around his death and she would say until she dies you just recently that it was the only thing kept her alive and not because she kept doing today
but that single effort of that dance to correct creation the active creation yeah you take something difficult and put it outside yourself carrie fisher take your broken heart and turned it into art ah carry fisher say that quote again take your broken heart and make it into art i mean i wanted the structures in my life right now we is just have a lot of hard family stuff going on we ve had a lot of illness a lot of and so i thought was coincidence it i read this book that i am doing this massive family photography project right now that's one of my great creative lives is editing photographs and making albums and staff and so it has been so healing for me this review them really so these are these are ways to complete the stress cycle physical activity breathing positive social interaction laughter affection a big ol cry and creative expression
say one more thing about creative self expression because that's directly connected to imagination you don't necessarily have to take your feelings and put them into a thing that you make or do you can also just think your way and imagine your way through a story this is how i learned to do this initially witches physical activity for me never did but i would get on the optical machine and imagine myself as godzilla trumping the state land grant institution where i was getting my doctorate and for the first time i'd get to the end of a workout and feel elated and powerful and ready for anything and it's not because i did anything with my body different it's because my mind and went through the cycle tang that's powerful how do we know that we have completed the cycle you feel it in your body your body will tell you which is the kind of citizens rights a enemy is like examine how does your body your body doesn't talk to you that's bullshit what you know yet it turns out your body does tell you it does have to learn how to listen
for it here because i mean given the world that we live in right now like i i can't stay stressed out because i can't control the stressors thank god you don't have to and thanks do you know how to begin feel better because if you can't stay well enough taken can you dealing with the stressors you are going to burn out and stuff trying to make the world a better place and we need everybody liked the world is in a bad enough state right now we need everybody on board which means we everybody taking care of themselves and if there is anything we learned in the process of writing a book it is the cure for burn out isn't and can't be self care it has to be all of us carrying for each other what we realise that self care is the fallout do you building your basement has apparently it's your job to protect yourself from nuclear war right so we talk about sleep we talk about
stress it physical activity well that's not to work if you live in a household where you're the only person who prioritizes your well being requires everybody in the household agreeing that your eight hours of sleep is a priority and we are going to cordon off that time and space and protect it so that you can have that time self care requires a bubble protection of other people who value your well being at least as highly as you do so the cure for we be all of us here for each other and right now more than any other we don't do lean in we don't do lean down we do lean on lean which take each other up i love it you right here don't worry if you're not sure you can recognise when you have completed the cycle especially if you spend a lot of years like your whole life may be holding onto worrier anger you ve probably got a whole lot of accumulated
response cycles spinning their engines waiting for their turn so it's going to take a while before you get through the backlog all you need to do is recognised that you feel incrementally better than you felt before you started you can is that something in your body his changed shifted in the direction of peace if i wasn't eight and an eight on the stress scale when i started and i'm out for now you can look at yourself and say that's pretty good so i love that that incremental progress is still mass of progress and a lot of us have been i don't know holding onto this stuff forever you now carried one thing to you that just blew my mind the good news is that stress is not the problem the problem is that strategies that deal with stressors have also no relationship to the strategies that deal the physiological reactions our bodies have to those stressors too
he well is not the live in a state of perpetual safety in calm but to move fluidly from a state of adversity risk adventure or excitement back to safety and calm and out again stress is not bad for you being stuck is bad for you we hear from a lot of women that day they feel like they need peace in their aiming for the sense of peace and completion and they want ideas for how to achieve vat as if well this is a goal a state that you reach but in fact while this is not a state of being it is a state of action it's the freedom to oscillate there is no gold at the end of the rainbow the rainbow is the gold that's right i've loved that i love you i'm just saying i'm just saying you are incredible this is this just this information is just such a gift to us for all of us that are looking for grit and discipline this book burn
is help and compassion while i was there wasn't anything to think pigs that's exactly what we were hoping to achieve here while you did it and and were grateful for it so do all both have time for a two minutes apiece rapid fire you bet we'll take one question the time and do both of you mobility is fill in the blank worth it emily a choice amber to your call to be really brave but the fear is real you can feel it in your throat what's the very first thing you do usually when called upon to be brave i just dive the hell in making them repressing fear like i don't know maybe it's good better about your interesting places amelia yeah it's coming
we fear but i just don't unless there's a bug involved above involve eyes i raised her answers like yours is to address that one ok what about you emily oh i breathe number three amelia something that p often get wrong about you they think that i'm an extra avert cause i'm super high intensity in high energy but now i'm a strong introvert emily because i'm that sex educator people assume i have a sex life that looks like a porno got it yeah i can see how that assumption would happen for amelia last show that you binged and loved staged on hulu with david tenet and michael sheen emily oh shit creek gotta be favorite movie the color purple is that grab the tissues i know i'm going to cry movie
emily lately rogue one rebellions are built on hope yap six a concert shall never forget singing the browns requiem with the new york philharmonic at every fish aha emily familiar doctoral recital get your job here we're all cry now so jimmy program here in a hospital twice she had a massive panic attack and called me in desperation re before i was like driving to her recital i go ahead and go on stage and i couldn't stop crying i could not stop crying she was crying when she walked off the stage at the end of her recital i don't remember a single piece of music that she played but i i remember watching her and thinking bed like i've never been
of anything or anyone in my life so i can't take much more you'll have me on the edge okay number seven amilia favorite meal blue crabs outside on a picnic table where like it's covered in newspaper and everything's crested an old bay and like a cold beer that's like dripping condensation and old bay yeah crabs and beer emily i work for me to eight what's on your nightstand crap in beer it's just that i have a human a fire on my nightstand because i'm a singer exerts emily earplugs and i'm sk a book ok nine amelia snapshot of an ordinary moment your life that brings you true joy sitting on the back step watching my dogs romp and play in the yard emily similarly washing my husband
the backyard playing with the dogs when he doesn't know i'm watching him he speaks in complete sentences to the dogs sweet ok last one ten amelia what are you deeply grey before right now right now this precision here this has been so amazing and a chance to go through all of this stuff with you and the dead i'm grateful for prior brown right now oh my hand it my keyboard but i am grateful for this readier me too what about you what what what something you're really grateful for right now in your life right now my whole body is like the most important thing the most powerful thing to be aware of his sisterhood so that nothing like amelia my actual sister but the experience of sisterhood you being with your sister the idea of the ways that are book can facilitate a feeling of sisterhood among women ok last thing i've got for you you both gave us playlists i'm pulling and looking him right now
we're gonna make little many mix tape on spotify with your play less they made me laugh though hard emily i have to tell me what you're five songs what is one thing that your five song say about you well palms see maybe i can open brahms and bark to tom waits okay so the bronze the segment of the brons it's about despair and hopelessness the tumbling is also about despair get by on the mornin imply a ring of keys about discovering like your steer record using yourself in someone else and effort over the last one is how can i keep i'm singing okay so my tolls please look at your knee from despair into hope i didn't do it on purpose but like i i made i made a little journey from despair to hope you did emily
sing sing sing naughty from matilda and then make our met our garden grow and then the disney polynesian village resort loop what is your what is your playlist say about you look pretty song sing sing sing or about my family connections naughty might as well be my theme song and make our garden grow definitely is my theme song the polynesian village resort loop is what i listen to when i'm on a plane because it is the opposite of being on a plane so all of them take me to a psychological place that i periodically need to go to for very specific reasons i just love you both and i am so grateful the book is burn out allah everyone know where to get it and find it will read together will change the world bank's let's do it by all so i'm gonna keep talking to
emily amelia about what we can learn and how we can do this because we are as we come up election cycle it's just we're so fried there's this great quote that i heard in a meeting one time that if you don't want to burn out quit living like you're on fire yeah i spoke to me obviously alright right now we got a breeze we gotta move we got a than to disney polynesian resort music which just cracked me up because i could hear the soundtrack in my head when they when they talked about it and need to check out burn out the secret to unlocking the like all by emily and amelia nego ski you can find them on twitter which day have the feminist survival project twenty twenty its twitter dot com there handles s f as feminist as in survival p as in project twenty and twenty
also in the fund news department don't forget that i'm launching a second podcast to lead coming october nineteenth began to big topics trust accountability hard conversations feedback giving it and receiving it and you know receiving feedback is not easy because not everyone that gives us feedback is trained to do it well i can't wait for us to do this to me our number to make sure you have a voting plan my friends thanks again hang in there breathe move stay with brave and kind and i'll see you next week give us is a spot of our original from parkhurst its produced by max cutler christened the veto and curly matin and by keynes thirteen sound design is by kristen activated
Transcript generated on 2020-10-14.