« Unlocking Us with Brené Brown

Brené with Jay Duplass and Mark Duplass on The Power of Paradox


Jay and Mark Duplass are two of my favorite humans. They are film-makers, writers, directors, producers, actors, and activists. They’re also partners, fathers, and brothers who believe in connection, love, and the importance of small moments. In this episode we talk about their memoir, Like Brothers, and how so much of what we crave in life comes from straddling the paradoxes inherent in love, creativity, and relationships.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hi everyone, I'm Bernay Brown, and this is unlocking ass and today's, Besides I get to talk to two of my very favorite human beings. I'm talk D, J and Mark do class their brothers. They are filmmakers. Writers. Directors are both actors, their activists. You know I was thinking about before I went to record this, so we record this podcast and late January before the pandemic before covered nineteen. So take that context into consideration as your listening, we know we're flying out there thinking. How did I first discover them can't I can't even remember not. Knowing their work. There rub in New Orleans they went to the mercy of Texas Austin. I think the first I ever saw- might have been there. First big break a short movie, seven minutes long called this is John. I think
three dollars to make an issue everybody away at Sundance, and I remember seeing it and thinking seven minute movie about someone recording their outgoing message on their answering machine? What we know This is gonna, be I think someone sent to me maybe on you too, but I remember, but I just sobbed during the whole thing and afterward in its so emblematic, I think of who they are. They have written a beautiful funny on to put together it's a memoir in its about everything. It's about their relations his brothers. It's about love! It's about family! It's about creativity in collaboration, it's about filmmaking, it's about her, conversations a secondary swear. I fell in love with them. Once again, and was the HBO Series Togetherness they created road, it dry, did and mark start in it. It's probably one of the most
real, honest at times- cringe e tree is about probably your thirties and Fortys vehement Cnet, its Togetherness and HBO watch it mark oh coastguard in this tv series. The league- and you may know him as chip on the morning- show I still claim. Is it s cancer on television and again that's coming, is that you know that's. That's pry praise jays also a gifted actor. He customers in the Amazon Series, transparent, plays jaw Superman who oh Johnny I just wanna pageant face in cattle lemon get em and treatment. Maybe I don't know Jays also start with eighty Falco in the movie outside in. Their brothers the creatives they love each other, they want to kill each other, but mostly they just love each other and teach us so much in this conversation. So this is those conversations where you need to get a hot cup of tea.
Smuggle, n and jests join us. I had, as you can tell so much fun If you know that I'm this is going to be wonderful and if you're just meeting them for the first time, it may even be more wonderful. Okay, let's dig in Mark and Jay Duplass HI, everybody gets Bernay and I am sitting here. I am almost chicks, to talk about it with Mark and J D plus and when I made a less foresees in one pie in the sky, who do you want to talk to them at the top of my love list so high you have your the above. I love lists. Nobody as we are by now Do I get some people that I think they do you mommy listening J C knows you know
Oh, my god, our lives are listening, so I met your parents when I watch the puppy chair. Yes, they are so New Orleans, there very short and the act, so very tall very tall, and I actually, oh, your dad, probably dinner that some of the New Orleans and I'll tell you why I totally cribbed one of his quotes from that. Maybe dad I thought with genius so you're in conflict, and he gives you this advice about your relationship. He said you're not going to know anything more than you know right now, you're waiting for something disastrous to happen or something wonderful to happen. You're not going to know anything more. And you know right now and as the mother of a twenty year old in college, homelike totally taking credit for just. Let me just how you Ellen you're, not gonna. Now, if somebody I told us when we were in the middle of relationships and our twenties, it was a real piece of advice. He gave us and we remember that feeling. Where is that so
in doom of truth, why did they re so a so right and I can't deal with as you probably waiting for some real big real Moloch decision clear and it is not going to have a going to happen. He's a trial or right guys, retired now, but he was he still doing. He was right about myself manager, yeah, they re always their head lawyer for American Honda back in this aid, when three wheelers came well in the southern in the southern part, say it was actually a very a very Duplass brothers style thing that he did, which was like they needed attorneys down there. Who could speak the language and had the accent, and he was like guys rather than bringing your California people who no one is ever going to trust or talk to her high army and one slash three of the rate down here, because my rents are cheaper and I'll. Do it all for you and that's how he made his business and that's literally, what we're doing today
in in in California, is like when we go to Netflix were like hey higher us at a third of the right to defend their rights and its little the same model. Cadet gal, I just loved. I just I ve only got a few minutes, but I just love them and they just you know John. I grew up in Orleans yeah, so I spent some time in your answer. I just heard it now: yah. Ok, we'll say most restart here, like brothers, your book.
I don't know, I pray you will not get through this time without crime. It is one of the best books have ever read in my life. Only this is so meaningful to us. I mean just to be honest, really quick, because the book it was very hard to write, as most people know who write books. It was very Jane. I were going through some transitions in our life and our relationship at the time, and, if I'm just being super candid, it didn't really hit the way we wanted to and not, as many people read it, which is just always hard when you put yourself in some things, are just the fact that you love it and nurse sharing this with us is huge So when I, when I bought this book, you know it said the other people who bought this book and people about this, but parties other box, and they were all like making to fill a feature film on your credit card to
filmmaking as a part of this book, but, like every body needs to read this, but this is not a book about filmmaking. This is a book about love. Now this is a book about the hard edges of yeah. So I have not toll mark and Jake what I'm going to say in a minute, because I have a theory about the whole book that I want to lay out in front of you. That's it there. But your Is there no crime real nervous now reading this book? It's it's a clock, essays about your relationships about your work about your family's about life. I it was like. I would foot from reading a book. It was like a conversation between Carl Young and Joseph Campbell and then the next chapter would be a conversation between Beavis him, but had two months. Grain is thus who we are. We always said if we get far if our art could be Sartre enforced
looks simultaneously barter far larger and we would be happy. You literally just define what were trying to do. So the would tell me about the work look runs deepen us. Canada said this term. We ve come up with for the anxiety and depression that we have both experienced and and the sole sickness in the weird ancestral sadness that we seem to have been born with middle class, laid an exact and emotional mayonnaise, sir, and we know how to deal with and when no one was called for a long time. So we liked giving at its own nickname in itself in this lovely monster that comes to visit us that sometimes we try to push away, and sometimes we try to accept and we have had to learn to to live with and at times rather transcend, and at times you say, hey, you're, here where's at meaningless figure it out, but the bitter really comes from us growing up in New Orleans, which, if you know anything about Norland, it's kind of fear
the years behind the rest of the world. We did not grub with their b, we deny grow up with met, not grow up with talking about that stuff. We didn't grow up with any of that stuff. We grew up talking to each other, about the shit that we were feeling and then our parents weren't even talking to us about that kind of stuff. Our parents were amazing and so stuff, but Mark- and I were not curated was no Wu Wu emotional involvement language and are now we had gray parents and lovely people, but we were like. Let me We talk about this even more now about how we haven't we weren't we're just allowed to you know. We didn't have two ways we didn't go. A lot of places we weren't sent a cat. Sweden do any that stuff. We were just wandering around the street.
We were emotional and barrel. You were there, but we were also like incredibly sensitive and for some reason we had this dialogue going with each other, where we understood that we, had all the things that all human beings have anxiety and depression in an feeling like not good enough for, whatever all those things might be and for whatever it's worth for had ever reason. We had a relationship where we minnow know slept in the same single bed. When we were kids, even though we have to. We actually had enough money to have separate bedrooms, but we slept in the same single bed and we constantly talked about that stuff and have talked about that stuff over the course of for decades. Now it is so interesting to me. Can I guess I was like, maybe
their parents were early adopters in therapy. Maybe they did a lot of family of origin therapy work laughing. Nothing, not I not so old keynote Big come from catholic families with age of four siblings. They just barely surviving. They gave us something critical that I think allowed us the confidence with which to pursue these conversations and think we weren't crazy, which was you guys are amazing. We love you. We think if you work hard enough, you'll be able to do anything. That is the core of it and why were able to feel confident to pursue the arts to be able to feel like? We can talk about these things without feeling so strange, but it wasn't. And anyway curated- are encouraged, suggested there weren't at that place, and we didn't talk about any this stuff outside of the two of us until very late. In I mean it was just something that we were articulating to ourselves and also throughout the process of trying to make art and failing to do so, which we talk. A lot about in the book is
It wasn't really until we shared that private conversation like the first movie, we made that connected and went to Sundance, unlike had a very visceral reaction with every one. Was us stupid movie about a guy trying to perfect the personal greening of answering machine, failing to do so and having nervous breakdown on camera, which pretty much happened to mark in the room, and I was the only other person in the room filming you know when we were that was our dialogue, essentially like okay. This is where we're at I'm pushing thirty. I can't I can't do this any far too I was born and for her within our and your kitchen and Austin Texas and its funding as when I was reading the work and you you're talking to the reader and you say: do you have the world sometimes like the two things like? I want a huge big career:
but now I am media shadow small life. I want to make a big difference whom I think you know like this struggle and if I can think of a word that captures you for me and I know you're you're both of Yalta captures off. I guess for me it's the paradox: ya Arch asked paradoxical people I mean there was something that Katy said in one of the chapters on wives, so there's a chapter in the book where they asked questions Jenin Katy their wives and they answer, which is one of my favorite chapters And Katy sad there really complex. Super sensitive about feelings, but laugh at Durban, fart jokes: they love dumb and dumber, and therapy equally, and I started thinking Big Union person. I think a lot about crow young, a network and he wrote that paradox is one of our most valued spiritual possessions because only pay Knox comes anywhere near the ability to comprehend the fullness of life. It
natural Medium for expressing trans, conscious facts. The union of Opposites is a trans, conscious process and, in principle, not amenable to scientific explanation. I don't know of any film makers who consistently and honestly capture the paradoxical moments that you capture in a way that takes my breath away. I you hated both of you intend for really intensely tell me about paradox: I've never thought about it. In those terms Jane, I tend to be not super intellectual. As we approach our art, we tend to be a little bit more visceral and do I show up at when you were saying that what occurred to me is that jay- and I have talked a lot about this inextricable team that he and I have been for it for years, and then what that mean and why we stayed so tight for
oh long and and how actually in some ways different, we are Our energetic responses to the world and how we operate and you know not to be reductive, but I can be a little bit more forward and aggressive and and try to be outwardly, confident and enjoy, can be a little more trepidation and measured and and smart and exacting at times and and the thing that is occurring to me- is that the deal plus brothers themselves that one unit thing is kind of the ultimate paradox We are together operating in moving forward with two vastly different energies and style and then beyond that inside of each of us is also that natural human paradox, but I think we have learned to be comfortable in a union that has paradox because it suits us and we
think deeply love each other foreign and appreciated and the partnership case. In point being, I really believe this. If I were left to my own devices as a filmmaker, I would make fish into twenty terrible pieces of art each year. I really believe it. Leave J was left alone. He would make three quarters of the greatest movie ever made and then he would die are. We able to ownership and somehow, together in the paradox of hours, of our things, we make it work and So maybe that allows us to celebrate it in the subjects we portray or something in there there's something here. Let's just struck, semi he's. I do think individually, your both very paradigm. Call people. Yes, I mean, I think your relationship is just a matter of that, but I do think- and in that after the work I'm going back to work as it was like.
You had a theory that maybe it's his your parents were so definable an eighty year. One of your theories is your parents were so different, and maybe today his kids, you know our parents or go to jail people getting burial at later. New looking for more similarities, but here I have a different there. It looks like this is good. Our learned. Some shit I myself, but I dont now get me wrong. I can be just dead ass wrong, but I do on this, because you just because I'm around young people- I teach allied, I think, there's something about individually and I want to talk about yells one person because I see is very different. People like I really to you in some way smart, but then on the oldest of four, and so during hard conversations. I can really feel you J, like unlike pension yeah, just forthwith
but my theory is: there are very few people in the world today that have the tolerance for discomfort, that your house and to be able to hold the tension of opposite some in this is a very deeply spiritual union thing to hold the tension of opposites without dropping either one of them and to maintain that tension until something new is born to me. Describe your art and describes your conversations when your hiking, like do ya know, do you know J, how you mean into hard stuff NEA as hell it, but it is. I think that is right. I mean it's interesting because it
there is a conversation that we have with our actors. I mean it's hard to even talk about it in relation to us all start with us in our process with actors so mark, and I we did go to all boys just were high school and we did learn Latin in play. Sports like a motherfucker, yeah, you know we did all the tanks and we grew up in a very male dominated that we are. We did all but were also incredibly instead of- and so we have this other side that we ve been exploring deeper and deeper and deeper as we go into the art world and a lot of people, I think when they come to our sets. We do present forward with jokes and lightness, and our wives think it's so funny that everybody thinks that were so free will and an easy, because, where the most complicated, difficult people to live with on the planet. As far as their can unhappy, you know we are yet we are where nightmares, ok, but we pay otherwise were good actors,
and we are also trying to usher in a feeling of positivity a feeling of like let's come. Do this anything happened, but there does come a point where we have to tell our actors. This looks really fun, but just so you know the core of what we are creating and doing here, as we are creating a realm of chaos where anything can happen in this moment, and in order for your art to achieve the feeling that anything can happen in this moment it has to be real. So this is not controlled. You don't know. What's going to happen to that person cross from you may say or do anything, and we just want to warn you that you're going to be incredibly uncomfortable throughout this process, and the more that you can embrace that the better this is gonna go because we feel like it's very important, for you to feel like not only that you can fall on your face, but that you must fall in your face and we want that and we want that and we need that and when I
and do it in a like you're, going to be safe in this environment, going to be safe, you're going to know that we have your back and we're good artist and you're going to look good and things are going to happen, but it's going to be on some level as what we're looking for. That is what we look out. That's the key is a wee wee, its other. We enjoy it, But if you're watching us on sat when things come to a bit of a data than a bit of a confusion with characters, that is when we light up- and that is when we get excited at that moment where you're, like I don't know, what's happening here, but I'm super excited and super terrified and we're not going to do it. Almost everyone does, which is try to control it, we're going to release the control and we're going to go into this moment, and that, I think, is the core of our art. If the way that mark- and I have talked about it with each other- is this idea that anything can really happen in this moment and the transmission like audiences
can it be able articulate not necessarily you were doing it. It's rare that someone say that, but they feel it. They know when something is real. Oh yeah, when a moment as we know will do you no true, true, no trend that is palpable and you get chills when you're feeling it and that's an honestly. We failed suit for so long and making our the only way we know how to make powerful art is to create an environment where something real is going to happen and that's how we view it, and that has been not just a container of making Europe the container of operating it, which requires a full scale, throttle back of your ego that whole concept that filmmakers r r tours and that they have decided something in a room. Three
yours ago and they're gonna execute enforces human beings in this box. Some people, by the way do that some people get a grenade. Brothers do a great and I don't know no standard or know how to do that. We know we tried to be the common brothers we failed. This is what we have to offer as like. We can create a safe space where people can like have a real moment and so the way that we are taking it even to actors, as we are not trying to execute the script, we want you to say and do whatever you feel moved to do to accomplish your goals and what were trying to do is allow lightning to strike in the space and then for the camera to be rolling when it happens, and then we'll just reorient the story continually around that, and let me tell you: we ve had some actors who are not okay with it and they have crumbled. We ve gotta be more clear at the front of our process now and say you know, we just want you to know that, like if you're not genuinely,
I had to do. This is probably not only that, but for you- and we might not want to do this together in over- doesn't sound good because tat evening, services, God and from here we will go for you and we will never alter a thing. We see this. We a different way different thing, it's a different thing. I tell you it's a different thing and it it jumps off the screen and grab you by the throat that's greatness. Now. It's not it's sweet, but it's also jacked up a little bag. If it is any way that you feel that so deeply, it feels very, I guess what I'm going to say, the feels very good to be so understood, and you you speak so clearly, you're very eloquent about it. We don't often face that. So it's nice to hear that's what I meant to say
again she's like. Are you having a conversation with a review studying them, unlike both paradox and again? How young paradox does more justice to the unknowable than clarity does, and I think that's exactly what you're talking about there's this whole school of study on the tension between opposites in the ability to hold it and what it takes most people do not liked. Do not straddling tension most polite choosing the binary here. You know like it. We just to be clear where not we want, and we don't get off on it at all its painful for us. I can tell it's very painful, but I will say that we have, I know, no, we do know
I don't know why we trust in it and we believe in it, and I think that what happened I mean Jesus J spoke so well about the microcosm of how that apply to our filmmaking process, but I think that on a more personal level. As it applies to me in jail was it was a similar thing. We went through a couple years ago. We started to realize what does this mean for us to be this close and also be married, and an end also realise some of our personal differences and our appetites are changing and we may be one a little bit of breathing room and that was unthinkable to each of us because we had banned it up so tightly and we had no idea how to approach it. So the only way we could approach it was to dive right into the very confusing and tense sauce of what is our future going to be as people who love each other dearly and want to stay so clear.
But we're gonna have to try to create some space so that we can grow and that took eighteen to twenty four months to figure out, maybe I'll, not even we round was still in at Egerton were still in below. We yet took defiling two years to get to the point where it just wasn't totally triggering every entered. The and how to just we do have a trust. Then I always have a truss out of your head this moment where you you thinking about someone, your life, you have caught conversation with any right, a little Emil, firstly, regions that are not yet do this through email, these it made us and attacks and talk to him
You write a little Emil first, new regions that are not geared to the three mail and these they may well send attacks and talk to him. Do you not believe a voice mail? So I know I get it right. I do that with a lot of people. My life I never have to do with J I'll have to do, is pick up the phone and walk in the door, and I know that I trust if I just speak from truth and speak vulnerable, it's gonna be fine, we heart, but will we find there? Is this this idea stained with it, which is what you're describing with relationship staying in the hearts testing, with a film stain with an urgent appeal. No, this is, if you do a thematic analysis of your book. It's probably the phrase used most often whether you're talking about each other or you're. Talking about your films. Are you talking about love stained with that? You guys do not tap out one thing: when shit get hard, you do not tap out no at his interesting does resonate with me in can you until you why that is aware that comes from? I don't know what we're doing I really need now is that I, like the Jesuit at bringing part of it, is the desert.
Ring, but not I always like that from there. I have a lot of articulation about this, because I work a lot with my therapist and what I call it is immigrant mentality. So, ok, our grandfather. Started cleaners in nineteen, thirty, nine with his two brothers and that is where our family Ani they got from stolen tires of car. Yes, yes, so like an the whole mentality of our family. Is you must ban together and you must put your head down and you must now. You must not think about the consequences. You must just like tenacity, hurt all of your energy behind the head of a pin and then the pen will pierce, everything is that'll, be your that'll be urology sets your only chance, and that is how Mark and I started. We grew up in New Orleans in the suburbs only model of a successful you know, artist is a fifty five year old black musician right. We try to do that
wherein white boy funk bands in the late areas and early, namely Russia. May I swear to you two thousand. I split between nine pm yeah, exactly didn't work out, and for so long we I've had this mentality of you. Just don't you don't question anything you just do it and that is partly Jesuit to like five years of Latin. You know what I mean like you, just put your head down and just Diana good distinction of like we were gonna. If we were gonna be successful artists, then this is the most impossible task we could think of which is probably why we Joseph Tornabuoni area, and so there would be no room for those things just go by independent. I mean we made kids today will ask us: how do you do it and it's like? Will you just keep doing?
until until it and until it, even your death within our society is truly, the methodology truly is in its its messed up, and I think part of also aren coupling in that immigrant way is part of us. Looking to our wives, to each other and also saying ok, we made it, we don't need to kill ourselves any more. What does the second half of what life look like if we could create something new and I think that's where we are- and I think we're still figuring that are not as I like, very confusing. Where do we go
from here because that methodology yeah almost killed us- I mean like we have both gone through so much mental and physical pain in both had nervous breakdowns in in a week. It's not been super pleasant, I would say, got a lotta joy. Lotta reward lot, a big tears and things, but there has been no peace there. There's also something about that immigrant ethos. I had a very texas german american ethos is very similar like get sick. You don't quit. You keep working, but there is also a lot of shame around self indulgent when you're resting on of shame around lazy, shame round squandering talent, that's God given shame around Europe, so the second half a life being a reboot to get out from underneath those that
shame messages that underlie that. Aren't you I had to teach myself how to spend money. I mean I'm barely there, I'm not doing it I mean I'm pray worse than you and your way worse than May at I'm awful in your office, but I'm like monkish in way like when we went to Jesuit and yet we found the priests were making twenty dollars a month. I was like the other makes sense. I could swim that because, until like, I was primary three when we first made our first money in Hollywood and up until that point I shit you not. We were making, probably in the realm of twelve to fifteen thousand dollars per year, each living in Stan I mean at that time. It was a very. It was a place where you could, Sir, On that note, three roommates and you may I you gotta buncher remains hearing peanut burn, jelly sandwiches, you doing you're, absolutely right. You ran cameras added a television show for a church at night. That's what you do
yeah. You work at restaurants along the way, and you just you just make you workin fifteen twenty hours a week just enough to like yet the rent and just to go that next play the rest, go see, art and your rest go see are constantly guy. I way tables are often for six years and my daughter was talking to me about it. She's, like a hot? What have you couldn't make grant not like you just pick that back to back devils, and how do you know you don't wait? Where did you work? Popopo we were cheesy now gap poverty for years? You act as if this is what you did hard to believe how conversations that love to talk. About the privilege, in fear of raising kids, that with things that you didn't have and it is a lot of worry attached. Oh yeah, the limit after that? I want to ask you this question, because this is where I first let me say this is where I first see you're paradoxical interesting ability to hold tension, and I have to ask you how this
first of all the stories of your lying in bed at night talking to each other, you know I've, I've sisters, identical, twins, younger sisters, and they both work with me and so there. It is amazing. Really it's really fine. Yet say: I relate to other that I love you. I love you too asshole asshole. So when cable came, I remember cable coming like pong. Cable for us came around the same time and it was big deal here we were watching like I was laughing khazar watching Flash every which way but loose we still. He's right here and I am certain we saw you out loose. So we are where we are watching that and the programming was super sketch in terms of them, not thinking about mature programme and nodded. I ran everything right right after school young watching with me. Flash in every which way please but Shut were also watching ordinary people, the dear Hunter Sophie
and becoming home. So we see what you right here. We just loved watching people a moat and feel, and we deeply connected with the spirits of those dealing with divorce, hunger, PTSD death. It was it that we were morbid either we were just into it what is that? Why didn't have saw it? We just knew that we it wasn't. There we're gonna have those feelings. We have those videos but everybody has. This means that age and nobody wants to watch them. I did we want sit and I need you want us behind. So I dont know I mean I maybe I'm giving too much credit to the to the bolstering. Is it just been so big for me lately the bolstering that my parents gave to me in particular, and I can't really speak for you on this, but we got the same messaging, you're you're, so amazing, and I love you so much and everything is going to be great.
And if you work hard, you're gonna be you're, gonna do great and sensing that we were middle class, so I was probably not going to have like big school debt, and I wasn't gonna go starving that that that foundation, that everything would be. Ok, all I had to do was lean into what was exciting to me. That may be gave me the confidence or thee the just basic support system, to allow myself to lean into what is essentially the darkness of that of that interests, without fearing it and put but being excited by it has something to do it. There's something I miss Hale and when I read about your at bringing that wasn't sure I have all that there are many have all the stories were telling right now. Let me, let me run a word by all and see if it resonates with their safety in your home, growing honours, a hundred per cent or mother didn't work. She stayed home. She was therefore never we needed. We were in a safe, so.
Urban wide street with now traffic, so we could go and adventures and not have to worry about it. It felt it was very, very safe within emotionally safe emotional. Yet it was emotionally said. No situations where are the hall was not an yet. No no eggshell was your eggshell environment like who's gonna rage, who's gonna know. No none of that stuff. You have the way, I'm thinking of you. Yeah, it's large, it's here the thing that I'm thinking, because I am force laid down I don't know that. I believe in your theory that kids today, because their parents have more in common, will have more ability to talk out the wood stain work beyond in the work? I'm scared for kids today, I'm centre for young adults day, because I don't think we are creating emotional safety.
I agree with that are really good identification. You may I mean my girls, earth or twelve and and seven right now, and they feel I feel pretty good. They feel at the I didn't even identified, but I know they feel very safe at home and they love our home and I love the environment and is not a lot going on with with me and k that would be explosive or dangerous for them and their pretty fuckin well rooted in terms of some of the emotional volatility? That's happening particularly a twelve hour. Yeah she's pretty locked down on it, but that's s really interesting ever thought about that. Before wondering to Stephen? I did not grow up and safe how there was not a material like a lot of fighting a lot of unprepared divorce just really, and so I would never have watched. I couldn't handle ordinary people, and I was my twenties better. I couldn't have watch that right is to triggering, because yet it was too
HU. We looked for escapism. I wanted the ring attain that knew how to somebody asked for me. You now sales are going to be well on twitter, say stuff to us trying to assert myself, but I have an ego at. I do and Bueller's like what made you think I wanna watch that Angry people, you know we do have some are deeply on togetherness, which I feel was yeah, maybe us at our best in terms of the interpersonal relationships that you're speaking about things that you enjoy about holding the tension in the paradox I remember feeling is. I went up pretty why being an hp on Sunday? new or people were coming to it. Now I, like a man, appeared, I watch out even newer people. What was weird to me as like our peers, who were going the same thing. A lot of them really didn't want to deal with it or they really resented what it was showing like how hard it is to be married with toddlers trying to have sex
I now hold on your own fuckin dreams like disclosed a drowning. Your disk, your eyeballs are barely above water people didn't we were so prize because we were like, while we're serving up with some good humour here and well, laughing at ourselves. But that part was even the most triggering. Is people didn't like cuz? That is one thing that because Mark- and I do see each other so clearly it's just like week and that you can't you can't hold up the ego of just so. He knows how pathetic it is all the things that I doing and where I guess, where that helps us just bring it forward easy advocate away. We share with each other allows us to share with other people in that way, but other people were not cool with it in really smart, urban, allay woe! People shit like that. We're just like the item Your show, because it some its its extreme
infuriating and like it caused me and my wife to fight last week where life what, moreover, willing, are able hurry? Yes, but it s also, the EU takes the a guy like we were watching it together like three or four of us would watch it. We like we wait, wait, wait, wait you can carry on and then river the episode I get. Those tasks await fringes but the show, but do you know we were? We were of the age like iron
Polly seven or a elder you, forty six, forty six, I'm I'm a years older than you so you're you're, my sister's age in your younger, but am oh she's at that age were like we're not dating anyone. This reading dude, I'm not data in our. Who are black armband when John Lennon, with wrath exact with had ever made it clear that we have that made it about. Don't you hadn't, planned rush. Laser light shows are in question now asked to be. Yes, it's so someone over arching theory is paradox, is so powerful on you. I do think you can hold tension and create a whole new third space by doing that which is full of love and honesty in truth and away the other people can't do my gas that mean, I don't know it just feels. Like or sounds like, you had a lot of safety with each other and
family yes to try and different ways of being an end to let a motion in in a way that a lot of us just couldn't or cat and its in and I wanna go through our says, yeah really quick for please, because I think it's very important if anyone is listening to this, who has an interest in seeing relationships like Jane, I had in their children, we get a lot of that, and my parents get a ton of what did you do to raise two boys they made Stick together, like this communicate love each other. The way they do great and the only thing I can say clearly as it has to start with the other sibling. All the younger siblings really want to go party with the older, siblings and the usual experience a rejection there and then the toxicity enters into never leaves, and that's my
I'm store analysis. I think that's true and and J loved me and I had the safety with him and that created the ability for me to just give him unbridled worship without having to compete and he loved that worship and that started very young and that poured cement into our hearts. That said, we're gonna be fine here, like Gimme the worship I'll take. The worship were good for a little while- and I created this like impenetrable trust, and so have you foster that in your older sibling, in a kind of did, this is an experiment with my eldest daughter sickly, giving her a lot of positive reaffirmation in being sweet to siblings. J was to me and the dividend should get down the line of money in the bank. Now ways you can explain. It along the line, and I swear to God. My daughters are just like me and J like it it. It has happened its powerful to me ass. You said apparent in crushing this really interesting. I think we should pause here for a second
I think some of the most painful interviews I've done over the last twenty years are between adults, siblings, who have no relationship. And there seemed to be a pattern and that that I see which is parents use- shame as apparently tool and then siblings, look and see what hurts the most and use that with each other out of it, and then parents go brothers, roomy brothers, their kids it, didn't sell it. There was a lot of shaming in your house. Growing like putting down humiliating as a form of behaviour may met, saw it all around us. Did you going oh allowed. The brothers were all we had in the latter right pit. Brother pay, those who or main unnamed in our neighbourhood at our schools, lotta brothers. My age has three and a half years
is a very common split Jen. We had a lot of pears and we would watch other particularly older brothers, destroying younger brothers, and it was just fucking dead, stating to us. You know- and maybe it was because we were so supported that we can look at it money. We could look at Sophie's choice and really I get in you know, but I remember watching it a lot and also GIS it, even if anything it reinforced. What's the point, what is the point of this they're just three and a half years younger. Let's love them up and I would even tried alike bring in the younger brothers at times, but it was. I do tied in relation to ride, to triggered and didn't trust it yeah The tide was always nice to gonna get me in drawing my rang s. What my arms two hundred for my face. Yet it is using people don't get. I mean you know. You know that people dont really survive that well right in other tests on a joke. The cruel
or similar yeah like knows that the acme the hurt plays their weight. Is the hurt place of the date that didn't show up for you? I I dont get it when parents laugh about that. I just don't, It is worth a mere six, so important, I think just too you know, one of the things that I have to encourage. My daughter with my son. It's a little trick here, because I have a daughter and then every a sun whose younger, and so there sort of like development aids spreading it even more exacerbated and they don't have as much in common is two siblings of the same gender would write So a lot of times when I have to encourage in my daughter is, you know just really clear cut, ok I understand why you said what you said to SAM, but you know if you're an goal is for this behaviour at a change and for him to like
come more into where you are. What we need to do is encouraged the things that you love in him and you need to go to those places and to find ways, and so, if you can, let one part go and then just incurs the part that you love of that's, like the opposite of shame, ran its legal. It's like finding what you love about someone in letting that blossom as much as possible, and I also Sunday Magellan. I have to encourage and each other to is just like us, kids, her fucking heart there might really really hard in life, is hard and we're all try to way too much, and you know you really hard not to scream and yell on the way to school in the morning I mean it's like you know it's like the modern fuckin. If you can do that, if you can get your head in the mother, fucking are without any yelling screaming. You ever accomplish something incredible, but you know just creating the culture around even just the thoughts around.
Like well, we want Santa to think positively about who he is and what he contributes to this fact, You know that kind of stuff which fifty percent of the time is, does not lance whatsoever. At least fifty forget land, though you start building that lure at lands at sticks. It stays in there who get ready they here. If you, if your modeling the behaviour and where it is, I can t can passwords so that for at least my family, my daughter's twenty, a junior beauty, yeah. I welcome her come and in my son's fourteen. So there's six years apart, I had Ellen was getting my phd and then we took in city was in residency. We took a mile off oh, my god, you guys that is so hard. So they love each other, so and in fact it was really tough. I we underestimate it. What Alan going after college, without
It's all right. Now, I'm the only one for a while, but he was like this is terrible, and so I think you can do it and it's not pollyanna. It's just I don't know it's a boy you're doing, is your creating reality tat. You are it's nice, it's not about saying something that isn't real or trying to believe in something or anything you are actually, engineering reality as you do it and you are create new rules of our communities are, are creating rules. Your creating patterns, your creating synapses, we're constantly increased eating all the half way is not all the things that we are doing and we are creating the world that we want to live in with our. Aviary. You know with the way that we treat people. Ok, let's go This is my list. Paradoxes that I loved was is yeah. Professionalism as career killer, who get the shots. In a note, your movie lingo is but like
for the day on time times everything perfect this hype- professionalism as career indoor or just as Russia, crusher of of the ability to capture lightning in real: weird environment, to remain inspired so that you don't get to confuse by. If I just follow these rules, it will then make me success. Is that something that, when you're swimming in a sea of infinite confusion, you're looking to hang on to something you looking for those buoys and the rules of the most simple buoys, but they'll really get you in the long run. You'll just end up sitting there floating out there. You know you got to look for the things that are going to like take you to shore the new in things in its swimming metaphor there that article eight is obviously art making. I think most people can even relate to the all right yeah. You can't really I mean we're jerks about it were like Good catholic School boys so like instead of busting
open a twelve hour a day and kind of like ruining everyone's week, we just. Schedule nine hours of work inside of a twelve hour day so that you can go to those extremes. If you need to go to them because you can control it, but. That's easy to see in our making, but it's like, I think, it's real in life to its like you're gonna, have like a critical conversation with somebody right here. This idea of how it's gonna go. This is the information that you need to disperse. And maybe there is even a time constraint on that conversation if you're like in human resources or whatever, and it's like it all getting in the way of creating something. You're, an honest and vote. Bull and real and valuable fuck invaluable. So if you can just like get all those rules either way and create some space for yourself to have that conversation just be like, like when market I have to have these really tough conversations like we. On a hike in the morning and we clear a fuckin day because one of us might
absolutely devastated or emerging or than we think are, might take longer than you think in so to create the space to force shit to go wrong to have really tough moment for somebody like have a break down and get triggered or whatever it might be, the finally, we always will often call each other for advice and about how we should deal with a certain person. Are certain situation and we never learned our lesson and always comes down to what It is one thing about then I guess what I really want to try and get a crosses. You know I'm confuse our no Do a word. It's gonna go really bad for us. I love you very much and looked scared, you're feeling devalue, but I don't wanna say now, and so how do I do it and then the other, and just like we just say it exactly like you just say it is a good idea. Ass express all the things that were in literally still
we ve given each other by a hundred times, and we still forget all his iron. Like an answer driven environment, we need results and we need answers and you need to have everything figured out before you get there and it's like it. Actually undermining the way that we relate to each their because you're not really putting faith and trust in that other person when you're coming in with, like the whole package, which we all do they. I sense there being managed yes to totally people another. Maybe they now And I know the way our operate is very subversive of Bruno you, really brought up something good about feeling, safe and growing environment? That's safe in the safe to that Jay, and I had I was talking earlier about he's one of the few people I feel comfortable to stumble in that door, not prepared with all of the parameters of the conversation in the handling and when you can get yourself to the stumble inn spot in the in the trust. You know that if you just leave, but the truth, you'll be okay, that's where the intimacy,
and that's. I think why our art has that goal implicitly built into it. I just want to say the book like brothers, one of them. That I do a lot of ideal, lotta leadership work for places like Google Pixar all. You have special forces in the military. There's leadership golden this book neither should we leave this block yeah I mean how to have hard conversations next, one of my favorite. Seeing each other more clearly when you're not looking at each other in the eye so Where do you have a lotta, your hard conversations, hiking hiking site? side by side. It's like most parents know if you can write, have a tough one with your kids. They should be in the car and you should be in the car and we're not staring at each other. You are floating ideas, helps us whatever reason and everybody's like up and really works for us any one place in the back mark where you sad. This was a very good.
But conversation. We both knew. We were in a hard place, so we picked a technically difficult hike where we really requires a european drought. Arraying eyes down, get the words out that its people like eyes at chicken shit. I think what you would understand is it's not chicken shit, it's so smart because duration. Yes, it is its thoughtful curious because Neuro biologically when we look someone the eye, and even there I mean you know your wife. Social work Arabian yet were trained dad. It can be to end yes and we'll go win back, that's without fight vice premier, we just get to defend other went out and you right. I have a whole theory beyond this. Yet at I've been dying to share publicly is that I think our whole system of going to parties this whole thing where you stand up at a cocktail party in you hold a drink and you look at other people, and you have conversations is a fucking nightmare nightmare. I think there,
maybe like five percent of people who are just like pure extroverts, who just eat it up right. We all know a couple of those who everyone else's on some scale of four of night. Where to absolute nightmare that you, I would do anything to avoid this moment. One of the things that mark and I and why we do work a lot. Is we love? socializing in the process of making a film, because it is power, well. It is in that same way we're all looking forward towards this other thing and we are relating to each other in we're talking about the biggest things in life and like the scariest things, but when Doing it in a one on one face to face conversation, and I think actually mimics human evolution. I think it mimics the way we didn't go to cocktail parties back in the day we are like
gathering food we were, we were like painting things. We were making clothes, we were doing past together. There wasn't a lot of like I contact. There was a lot of like talking going on a lot of people in groups figuring things out together and when you think about it that way, the level of intimacy you can achieve in that, and also just community that you can achieve in in a environment like that people who have heights like the Pacific, restaurant appellation, trail industrial bodies and what they achieve by all that silent time together next to each other, like really spent hardly ever Legion, now to look into the back of his head more you walking side by side. You see some issues, Your theory is not only spot on. I think it's proven. Does I think the worst, where you can build team? I give your team struggle in an organization. The worst thing is the cocktail party cocktail
ready and may that, just as it's going together do something Jesse just do something together. That's a shared task, where you're doing something, preferably with your hands, ass cassettes, where, where but Helen, why monkeys? Where I live Ok axis, these are my favorite. Ok, too, is more uncomfortable. This it might take away for your book. Truth is more uncomfortable than line but way easier, yeah. Thus, torture, yeah, but both your we live on ass. How my bullshit say lying on a nightmare. Truth is more uncomfortable, the lying not way easier. So the example that you use without laughing because I was like, but we won lives. This way where you are out of time on a sheet, I don't know how the technicalities don't know your business but you're out of time on a shoot and then instead of saying like we're out of time, we really want to do this intricate complex shoot, but we have to do something similar cause we're at a time.
Nine times out of ten. The director will bullshit and say you know what this is the better. It actually do it this way and everyone knows it's a lie and participate in the lie. Everyone feels gross. Yes, so tell me about this line more difficult but easier was because Margaret I can't lie to each other. I know what he's thinking it times, and he knows what I'm thinking all times so that veil is gone. When we up and work together. It's a pain in the ass. Isn't shoes at it. Just happened naturally, and we have the benefit of it. Yeah, it's like you, you could try pull the wool over this actors eyes, who yielding over three weeks and you just trying to get through it and stuff but like marketing but the reality is, and we can't look at each other and lie so we ve been by fire forced that thing, but I will say now that we work more more independently. We still do the same. Saying because its ingrained in Us- and we do know that like when you show up with the truth- everybody
those they feel. Everybody knows what's going on that road motto everywhere: it should be that everywhere, where we mess it, but it was also what ye shall ass. You do not show us bullshit right, like Jane. I had to make a decision about four or five years ago. We can't go to industry parties together because the level of small talk that is often required to make it work successfully. We just so goddamn growth. By having to do it next to each other. As we know it's, because it adds each arabic and see how we are to do with other people were so less obvious, each other partners we like spilling. I got you, but we don't talk to me now. We know circle up. We can hear him that occurs. Energies are anathema to sell. Ok, so I can't do that to my sister's either. I can't watch, you I can't. I can't know that you're watching me and I am On its two, exactly it's still are, I feel ashamed of gas by elsewhere with the threat we feel to be separated. Yet now it is a really tough spot to be in it for a long time. It is real. I'm is really tough for us just like how do we do it? I mean now
We ve come so far. Where we know you got a part is anywhere I mean is like one hardly a year that we both have talked about this site, I'd if we're gonna go to one fuckin parties can give us the hard at most of the year, and we don't do I gotta see you don't come near me. I wish it was well ashram cell and waited bad feeling Emmy. I think people have it with their spouses too, and I think there's something interesting wiping to so many things about it. That are super interesting, like people have it with their spouses. God he's tone that same goddamn story out yet can't. I can't live through these next three methods and he's gonna fuck it up and he's gonna do the adding and it's like you know what it s about, gets a tell it on his own the new group of people Gregg. It actually enjoy himself a lighted up with them and yet the joy they can help and support its about. I think it's about. Exposure around and authenticity, yes, and I think
about being on. Yes, if I'm on at a party, I mean they're talking to the weight staff, the children who have been pushed off and the kids some are in a feudal position in a country like that's, that's me genuinely be authentic. At a party I hate it right, that'll get yeah. Do we need to be on at parties. Is the real question? Is such a choice but you're you're a weirdo? If you're not, I mean it's weird, and be like I mean I got, of your aren't as an actor, because I went to a party that I did not want to go to. It was crazy anyone, out the person that you talk to brainstorm other actors right, yeah yeah. I read that look yeah, but I mean I genuinely didn't want to be a third party, so it's like there is value and going party in telling your stories and getting on. I guess you know turning your I'll, find a connecting with people. There is, but value, as we're talking here, as applies to work as a place, a real relationships and look, we are in the privilege now being like
and the more successful and about rare. So we have the privilege of me able to say I don't know or I met this up right and say in say those kinds of truths without consequences sets when it with its when at your sales that re examined it myself, and we were well aware of that- that everybody has the privilege now, but we are so privilege to be able to walk on the film shoot now and say guys. We must have all management. We're gonna have to make some sacrifices here think it'll, probably like eighty percent as good as it should be and actually want the movie that much you guys go. That will be good. You know, and just let it be what it is in essence wrong with that, but it took us a long time to get there. I mean another part of this equation. That's interesting in terms of being on and being a parties in doing this stuff is the person that you're talking to mark. I don't do this anymore, Don't go to energy use together any more because I Gara last one on the book. Tour was Terry gross and we were like we did it with,
it's over. Then you called, and what we have learned is that when the person on the other side is fully inspired and is fully coming from a place of true curiosity, then it's all new I've said half the stuff. I've said in front of mark already, I dont mind because You have created a space where the energy is elevated and we are exploring new ideas and we are onto something new and there is something. This is all quarter baked gives out. I haven't figured this out yet, but something that I think about a lot. I think about socializing. What is dynamic, knows dynamics and mark, and I have talked about it. So much is just like well he's the gregarious one today, so I guess I'm just going to reseed. You know those kinds of things I think about it with my wife and in terms of like how do you socialize with your spouse, and how do you do it together in, like both feel supported, I mean like when's the last time you went to a soul.
That with your spouse and you both left feeling great. I mean when's the last time that I actually cat is a real. It's a real hard thing for both of us now. I think that most people feel that way. He thinks. I think that we, just good thing. Is I'm introverted he's he's movement and revert socially more shy to go and we will have jobs were on he's a doctor and none this, I think at the very least, it's more of a this is more of your thing and I'll, be there with you and get what I cannot of it and the other things in writing, and so this a little bit of that just last scale of joy, was what I need from you in this interaction I mean where full on special ops, whom we go to stuff together, Gemini. Just like ok when I need for meat. When I need to talk to these two people, I mean you, I don't need you to be near me, in a minute I mean like it is something we have all heard. Everything at all that stuff, I think, is critical because, back to our saying, I think it's fucked up I think these social interaction,
that we're doing there so deeply uncomfortable! That's why people drink so much at the IT till it and I'm sober twenty three years now. So for me, it's real my argument, I dont have the Lou I dont have gathered her courage. I don't have like you know and ice quit smoking and drinking the same day. I don't have to. I don't have any nothin laughing. I got yeah it's just You know I'm Unita fully gummy spray boy. Mother. Can you fully take this idea, so you can help us because Workin on yeah, it is it's a distress her, and I can. I have this growing like getting on one of the first kind of big authors that actually turn Down book signing so I, when I left my last tour, I said I'm not saying anything anywhere, that's great and they were like tat. You are you crazy,
I'm not. It was really hard for for me and Jay the I don't know what it was, but the one thousand five hundred pictures we took on the on the last book tour and like wanting to like give and connect, but like the drain of that- and I talk a lot about something called soul points which is like Where is your balance? What have you given? I would have you filled up so that you can continue to have renewable energy and move forward at my and we're on the floor for a week about one loves to is you know this? Isn't this my experience and maybe I could use it if its helpful for your next book staff I addressed it with actually pull the device I addressed with the audience, and I said, but for you I'm not books after this, and I'm gonna tell you why, because takes too much out of me. I love and appreciate your, but I really and appreciate my husband and kids, and I need to be whole when I get home and people just jump to their feet, her clapping so beautiful it, oh Jane I,
if we want to share some of the jedi. I have also recognised- and I don't think we put this in the book, but correct me. If I did We, similarly we get more get like you know, anywhere from five to ten emails a day from people saying I could I just please take you to coffee and pick your browser you ve done. This way model is and what we used to do was, weirdly, shamefully Nepal. Frankly say like you had such the time right now, can't do this in the meat, maybe in the spring, in homage to keep putting people, often tag animal, and while I do a lot of it yeah we did a lot of known as every guests we got drained. Like you, said Anne, and so then we eventually had the courage to write a response, which is the true is I don't have time right now and even if I ever did have time, I'm gonna have to give it to the five things that I'm not doing enough of my children, my exercise, sleep, reading books and the patient, so
if there ever as time is going to go to those things, and it's never gonna come to you and I'm so sorry, but if you have- a question you wanna, ask me over email. Ask it now, as you We want a five questions and we pretty much have those responses are invited to go and then it gets done in that, This is always some kind of like solution- and I, like you, said the truth is harder and for us to come to point was that we all realize it was a very hard a moment. We realise that, like No we're married men with children and ourselves care the extremely lacking I mean we have I'm going. We're getting way better, but it used to be all about no self care who used to be all about like
I sense that in about yeah yeah, I'm gonna throw you off the cliff and then will hopefully the water will wash in, hopefully won't be jagged rocks, and then you jump in right after me and then we'll get down there and then I'm gonna throw you off the negative. Then we would throw each other off of clear today. Next yeah, it's similar to Emma. Meant mentality it s just like we will think we will not pause. We will do things enemy. I dont poop on it, either I mean it's served us really. Well, I mean our whole motto of make movies. Not meetings is the main reason we have continued to make things consistently. You knows weeding get caught up in the idea of what something's gonna be issues like we're. Gonna make this thing. The other key is now the return to take the foot off the gas. Engines used to revving that way for twenty five years. Very high regard that now there are really hard and. I'm telling you in that that mentality that you have that. I think I share a lotta. Shame messaging yeah yeah and a lot of
if I say no, will this ever be perceived as a lack of gratitude for what I am it? I have gotten to beg my my britches. They this we. I definitely inherited a lot of catholic shame coming up. It was very well baked into we had nuns, and then we had Christian rose, and then we had the priest and I definitely got a lot of you not good enough. You, you gotta, do everything that you can possibly you like who you are inherently is not a now you're, you must establish you must. You must distinguish yourself with your with your accomplishments, essentially and that something that I'm still actively trying to undo. I mean I still don't believe that I am enough as I am. I definitely think that I need to win an Oscar at some point in order, for this whole thing to have
worth it. I mean I can tell you that in my brain, I'm just telling you the motor of my immigrant spirit right now is gunning for that Oscar still, and I'm trying to like tell this person that it's going to be okay, no matter what it is and that and it's dumb, because we accomplish enough to know that there are it could be the worst thing that ever happened right so arbitrary and crazy and arbitrary yeah, it's crazy, how you get it? What bends and then you're at the top and then you're pretty much only have it's like you know it's like, I think so often about that gymnast girls, who went to gold medal when their fourteen result, because when we were kids, we were just like. Oh my God, they have done it and now all I can think is yours. During a seventy year, retrograde slow
for the rest of your life from that boy. You recalibrate them yes, like for all the people who are listening, who, like think that, when this accomplished something it's it they're going to get where you dont get anywhere. I'm telling this to myself, if it's five or six of those apex as that was set for us I'll get a movie is announced. Did it Solomon, We too studio dead at an average acting job when an army data who speaks sadder who is gathered their spending as we watch your characters. Yes, we wash them that happened. We watch them with. Struggle like this is very much a three line in many of the people that you have written, yeah planning, they move their own goalposts. Yes, I know of an yeah.
I've got to Morrow gotta cover. We got his. This was this these too big for me ethically small moment. This is this. Is everything to me? It is everything to us, the core of a mere we live in a world that has put value, small moments at a word where everyone is seeking out.
The wonder and all of small moments right to the light emotional breakdown just outside the Wendy's off of I, thirty five after you've dropped off your friend's bad that you borrowed and you didn't know it was going to happen, and it's going to happen right here and there comes the breakdown in the ugliest most banal place you can imagine, and that is everything we're striving for an artist is the the warship of that. The elucidation of that, the sharing of that it's just I don't know if I mean like I got a lot of therapy and one of my main goals is if I can find a way to celebrate all these confusing things that come all these surprising things that come and take interest in those things. Then that's a recipe for success. For me and my life,
and if I can give my interest in my heart to those things, so I think that's why it comes out in the art like that, while the ethically small stuff too, is like, like we were literally just saying like you can win an Oscar and you can have a terrible weird night. You can have a week you brought that night, probably enemy or somebody Earth Day might be the most depressing I mean when we got our first feature film in Sundance and when we came home I went into a dark depression for six months because I had sublimated this idea that what that getting into Sundance would fix all my problems with sounds so dumb, but you know when you want something so bad in you're. So far from it, you subconsciously at school the reason why you're upset is because you and got into that place, and then you get to that place and then that place tells you guess what this is, and it is the core of your being. That is unbalanced
it now. You know that was like a real starting point for me of like ok, full both therapy, let's get into it, let's go there, but the ethically small is. What we are really know to be true, is that our victories, if you training for marathon. That marathon could be a shit show it's. The Tuesday afternoon run that you didn't think you were gonna get in, because your kids. Needed longer with the homework, and there was a rainstorm coming in and you went out any ways and you ran in you're, trying to beat the rain and you didn't beat the rain, and then you realized, I can run in the rain. Even if it's fifty degrees- and you feel like you transcended something that you didn't think you could transcend before? Those are the victories, I think the tricky part is Having someone like mark You can celebrate those victories with an US all, creating a culture
We can talk about those victories together and stop talking about all these Normous wines in all these instagram mobile Moments- you know I mean, maybe we need to start Instagram in these little time are not enough. That would be. I remember the night we won the Emmy for wild wild country. I walked into the after party and I got so depressed and I was like I don't want to. Any these people remember seeing images holding their statues and wondering what that would feel like and I was holding the statutory site, this feels whore when I walk in the party and I walked right out and I got my car and I called my way- like do we have the three and a half donuts. Box that she said. Yes, we do, and I said, put the hot tub on I'm coming home and me and the girls all went swimming in the hot tub and a donuts, and I was like this is at baby. This is it this. Is it
I have to say. I am so grateful for the epic small moments that your brain they are. So this is John. Like I show it in my classroom to teach vulnerability now. I can barely watch it here because I don't know it's what it means to be human the laughing I wanna say around Europe paradox a call wholeheartedness. Maybe she said because I just want to say something about the pic I'm not there will be communicated totally the paradox and it this is very reductive, but the thing that I think is we're talking very openly in. Therapeutic Lee and wherein I like open hearted space, but to like give the concept of the it acts with me and mark, and our wives will be the first ones to tell you. This is that we are fucking killers, We will not stop you talk
but a little bit with like the art, but there is a rigour and relentlessness and sometimes a ruthlessness with which we work pursue something great art, art but also intimacy, and closeness yet with each other. Yeah, and things like that on a terrifying way. I mean it's a little Tarifa, it's a little terrifying it I mean like out any light. Look if you're listen to this in your get, in the sense that these are touchy. Feely, guys, they're not either read the book, but but I think that's an interesting part of you, too, is that there is an intensity about. You add destroyed some things: physical objects in an express of my strange fusing love, ruggedo plus apart from destroying that box. Yeah, but I mean there is a will. There is a scary current that flashes, through both of you.
I assure you, I think, that's a good way to tighten the height of that paradox to yeah there's deep, deep lad, but there is also there is in intensity to both in the area. Do. You agree? Yes, oh yeah, yeah, anywhere relenting, something great. This is my great sake way to my last kind of thing that I love around. Holding the attention, I think, when the most powerful things that I read all of your essays from by creating in the star wars in the ordinary people, which will never get over just two where you are right now is separateness in your togetherness. Y'all are This is hard yet where in the world that were still in the middle of this right now, this is still unfolding, unfolding folding.
I have to say we're out of the traumatic realm of it, which I think was more traumatic for me. You know. I think that the J understood into he's always been a little downstream from me terms of an intellectually understanding things a little earlier than I do is I tend to be a little bit more myopic and some things that's a general but so he understood that this needed happen earlier than I did. Some of that was from where he was standing. There can be better for him, and so it is an age wisdom thing whatever. So I was a little slower on the uptake. Will you all had a bigger life than me way earlier like All I wanted to do was direct from the early days and mark was like out acting prime. Early, so he started branching out and having all of these in the producing stung by large scale gainsaying, and then he said, co writing in order to help those projects.
All I ever wanted, was for us to be the cone brothers. You know, and then there was a certain point. So I was, I think, the realities I was sitting. The break up for a lot longer before? You even realize that it was happening. I experience were relatively be called somewhat of a blind side with it. So then, J had two x creates some of that same seven year old kid who would destroy a box. Anyone to make with his friend again, you know, and maybe more emotionally, have all version but a bigger and stronger went to the area and man, it was such a. It was such a journey. I think that if just for me was so as someone who like thought it gonna handle figured out about how to operate a really got knocked off my eels. You know- and I remember cry a lot and I remember feeling I was doing something
would have things every now and then and catching myself, and I mean what are you doing you trying to make us feel? What are you doing? You know And then in jail was good was very gentle in and we talked a lot about away at a lotta hikes and in our member there being being a moment where I had to understand the fact that it was possible that J could be happier making a piece of art without me next to him, and what that would mean for You know and that, even if that are wasn't as good or as complex as it had to be, we made so much greater, we ve done more than we ever thought we could at this would be right and and in some ways like just for our relationship. Sit in that for about six months now, I can accept that, but I have and has been very good for us.
And now we are in this phase that has been going on for a while, but I describe as some like how to be excellent mates really is what it is You know how do you have you have intimacy and still loving, other and have all that stuff, but, like probably in some way be closer with their wives and children, because that's what's happening now in a nose a little bit of a long time coming, but it's it's hearts arms and then those we get lucky arrive. Retardants was sometimes a psych, we're gonna hike like it's all right It's all just the same. Isn't it it's not like learning to accept that energy. That we cannot predict often dictates how we're able to do at any given moment running. Also, like that whole emigrant approach to making art and sort of like the self destruction, the throwing each other off of cliffs along the way
hey it's like over time, you're sort of brotherhood or your relationship kind. It disappears. It becomes more about what you're creating in your kind of giving in a way to people constantly, which is beautiful, but there like a limit to what can happen and then there's a certain point, I mean For me when I started the machinations of like ok, we need to loosen the it was more about like I want to employ and cry I to enjoy being marks. Brother again, that's we lost will also. We lost our remit, togetherness, yeah thousand the simple: and thing to me is like ok. In light of that thought, I can give up thing you know, and I dont know we still don't know what that looks like we're figuring that out even like
I mean there- are hopes that, like maybe one day, will make something together in an intimate way. I mean we help each other with our stuff. You know, but like it, it's not. Where life like I used to be like lock, stock. Yeah, we're not directing side by side an or also were like middle aged, grown ass men like we me, we, really needed each other at a time in the truth, is to make a piece of art. That's unique right. Now it actually We can be more unique and its right for us to do on our own, mostly partner with someone else, was somewhat different energy with different entered, and yet it also give that person and opportunity who hasn't had a voice before to come up in that partnership is critical like you're, just following the energy. You don't really know why, but I do know that, like us.
They out a way to be brows again. What that looks like what it feels like you can't even decide You can't decide exactly that. You have to you after just like be like you say you, have to be vulnerable, etc, while gay do it without a plan is You have to go without a plan and you have to just let it like. The universe wants us to be brothers, We know that we don't know what it's gonna look like yeah? I thought when we pull the plug on the like this is the small container of our energy and right now it's all work energy. If we start to drain that, I thought the brother juice would just start automatically filling at the top, but it hasn't actually and so now we have to get active and get smart and curate. You know I mean right now. All I really is going for hikes in runs in eating mexican food after we have. We don't even talk about it. I think, like we dont, do it that often because we
we wanted to be awesome when we do. It is a were like curiosity, the awesome this of us being brothers, and we don't like Mark said we both have young kids, we're both very present dads and who has been in. We are still fuckin maniacs at work, yeah, there's plenty to do and we hear me Hopefully, gonna live a long life and will have plenty of time to figure out what what that brother had looks like you're such a different way we can love each other when we're clear about where we end and some one else begins Nova. Gentlemen, that we do not have. That for a law is just not it's not possible to love each other. The same way when there's no distinction about under the end in the beginning, as doesn't make sense, a hundred per Newman. You tired. It feels like we're talking about the bio pick of like a rock band, who is on crazy, and had no limits in. There were those beautiful years. Last no awareness now all over each other and then at a certain point as necessary.
A bold there has to be some form of a break up in the coming back together, so we just gotta get into that reunion. Torsion Riyadh effort and also in the meantime marks older daughter and milder daughter are like soulmate, yet and so we watching that- and it's pretty much gold, that sea come about cataclysmic. That's that's America! yeah they're nine months Barton and their cloak Bron. No, I knows work there's there's something that they read were at my wedding. When I married steve- and I was just going to Rio- Cosette every minute- me of your reminded me of your work in its it's his thoughts on marriage, and it says you were born, together and together you shall be forever more. You shall together when the white wings of death scatter your days. Yes, you you, together, even in the silent memory of God, but let there be It is in your togetherness and let them
haven't danced between you love one another, but make not a bond of love. Let it rather be a moving see between the shores of your souls, and I just that is useful here thank for me. I was surprised how much I learned about myself reading this book, my car after the way, I lead people, my marriage, how a parent- and I just one Thank you for all the gifts that you just keep giving us and holding up. I don't know how We need a mere that reminds you personally of the epic great the small moments in my life, Superman form, and I am grateful for this dynamic jail you're, a big part of our families there. Thank you. Thank you so much his pockets sprout EU by Kramer versus Kramer deserve issues.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. I just markings. You're. Just such soulful people and such truth tellers am love how they pull the covers off of the creative process and how they as you know, one of the big themes I talk about with them in the pod cast that has stuck with me, since that is just stay in it when you know when she gets hard just stay in it tell the truth, even though its unconscious and watch everything you can buy them. If you want a great list of some of the things they ve written, directed or starred in, want to get more information about the book? You want to find links to how to follow them on social or learn more about them. Just go to Bernay brown dot com, backslash, unlocking us that is our podcast Caspian age, and we have everything about our gas, including links,
I can tell you that their website is W. W W, W, plus brothers dot com mark is marked, do play. On Twitter and J J to class? on Instagram Mark is marked, do class and J J D plus there just pretty straightforward guys right these urges the colony like it is thanks for this to unlocking us and who there are any ass. They could help me say to you: stay awkward, brave and kind. It would be marking J, so these are still tough times. I know that weariness yeah, but I'm writing things like a surfboard. Sometimes I'm on top of it kind of balancing and other times comes crashing behind me makes me down: maybe thing to do during this time would be to dig into some of their films and some of them their work cell, stay, Sulpho, awkward, brave unkind,.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-25.