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David Kessler and Brené on Grief and Finding Meaning

2020-03-31

Grief expert David Kessler takes us by the hand and walks us into what he's learned about love, loss, and finding meaning. As someone who has a lot of fear about grief and grieving, this conversation is not what I expected. The only word I can use to describe what I learned from David is "beautiful."

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I'm in operation. Today, with David Kessler, David is one of the world's foremost experts on healing and loss in addition to you with thousands of people on the edge of life and death data was protege to psychiatrist Elisabeth Kubler Ross. Now not familiar with Elizabeth Cuba, Ross and ninety sixty nine. She wrote a groundbreaking book com. On death and dying where she five five stages of dying denial. Anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. Elizabeth and David became good friends and co author too, ex together their second Together on grief in grieving was the bits last book. Elizabeth David work together, because they had really observes that the deal
the process was very similar to the stages of grief. After Elizabeth Staff, David continue to work in grief, as he has for decades and really took the last and fifth stage acceptance, Dug in deeper based on his own experiences and again his experience as working with thousands of people to push it out further, and her talk about six step in grief grieving, which Finding meaning he's podcast, we'll talk David about grief will talk about individual Ethan will also talk about collective grief and think what a lot of us are living through right now in the coveted pandemic and we'll talk about what meaning as in what finding meaning is it. I love this part in his new book finding meaning where he said that
Steps are not a method or process for checking messy emotions into neat packages. They dont prescribed they describe and they just I've only a general process, each person grebes in their own unique way. Now ass the grieving processed, as tend to unfold in stages, similar to what we ve described and most people who have gone through or recognise them. So by me for this conversation, I have to say that I think I spend most of this podcast basis. Saying. Oh my god, can you say that again? Oh my god, can you say that again are? Oh god, what does that mean, grief his half subject and I've just had very few people who had the ability to take my hand and walk me through it in a way like David has so take a lesson. First, let me just say David. Thank you so much for spinning this time with me today and spinning with my community of listeners on the pod they use
much for doing this and allowing me- and I appreciate it so much. Okay, so here's what's funny, I don't know it's this is my nervous laughter already we're like twenty seconds it and I'm in my nervous laughter about grief. You would think as a shame researcher that I would not be afraid of any kind of affect her emotion, but I am I'm grief, afraid a little bit, so Let us start with that start by saying that you know Elisabeth Cougar Ross. My whole training is in social work, and so we study Elizabeth, Cuba's ROS on death and dying, and then we studied your work as much. I tried to make those steps linear and a little convenient pocket to put things in. I had a great teacher who had not allow me tell me about your work with Elizabeth Kubler. Ross. Tell me about it.
You did together. So, as you mentioned, Elizabeth first did what's called the stages of dying in nineteen. Sixty nine in her book on death and dying. And she identified these patterns that she would see and common issues that people would go through as they were dying decades later and I went to community college and took a death and dying class and learned about Elisabeth Kubler Ross and never thought my wildest dreams. I'd be ever meeting her so fast forward years later we met gotten to know each other I had made my career Ms hers studying death, studying grief, and we did this book together, call lifeless Since then, I would always say to her: you know people arrive butchering your stages
really turning it into something and Elizabeth didn't feel like she wanted to go back and revisit the stages for her? If you can imagine writing, I don't know. When he six books, thousands of lectures had people constantly trying to reduce your work to five words right, here was such a challenge for her and so on. Talked about. Should they ever be adapted for grief. And I would say you know, people are adapting them for grief, whether you like it or not, pretty poorly. Actually, that's right! so one day she called him, she said. Ok, I want to write a book on page. Why did she asked me to do it with her, which I was so honoured on page one? The book is called on grief and grieving. We say there
not linear, they are not a matter for grief. Do not reduce people to this. Do not reduce our grief to this. These are not prescriptive. Their descriptive. And they only described general patterns I thus putting it on page one and talking about it. It just seems like the cap and still to this day, yet reduced to five easy steps. For Greece and, as we all know there is, there is no easy steps to grief and I'll tell you so much on my Facebook in Instagram Someone WAR, you and Elizabeth Kubler Ross. Her just trying to need not our grief and make us follow your rules which shocks me because This was a rule breaker
No one broke rules like Elizabeth Elizabeth would tease me about quit, trying to color in the and so her actual work. All her writings have just gone to stand for university, where they're gonna be house there, and people will be able to research, work directly and it's interesting. They showed a clip. I had never seen of Elizabeth, and it was this clip from the late sixties when there were only three networks and in this clip the host of this torture says to Elizabeth Elizabeth, so you're on the programme. He says America. We have an important programme about death and grief tonight. You may want to change your channel, but do not change it. You must listen to what we have to say and he said we have Elizabeth Cooper Rossi wrote the book on death and dying Elizabeth look right in the camera.
And tell everyone why they should not change the channel and Elizabeth looked at. Cameron Gus? If you wanted to the channel gets ok. Maybe I'm ready when I see you another time by and the host was horrified, but that's who Elizabeth was this idea that there's five stages. And it's interesting it is actually more professional debate. When I talk to people in grief, I would say. Ninety nine percent of them are not discussing which grief model is correct. Ninety nine percent of them are discussing their missing there, mom, where their brother or their sister, this notion? We have that there's one grief model is just such a ridiculous notion.
For so organic there's, no one right model or one right way to do it so glad you opened without to clear this up for people. Why it's important to me because, as someone who tried to make both death and died and grief and grieving linear because like vulnerability ironically, and had sure that just pushed back and push back and she would say over never descriptive, not prescriptive. How can this be helpful? How can this be useful where, but I guess also is a shame researcher where I see my work out in the world and I see three easy steps to never experiencing shame again, where you type on page one, there's no such thing when we lose our capacity for connection empathy is the only way to lose our susceptibility to shame. So I really relate and get to it an found so much healing how
Understanding in Elizabeth Cover Ross his work in your work, combined and of two people who I think embrace messing. As I don't know, anyone that embraces messing this like hell, do I mean yeah, like your many of them ass, a of them essay and I'll. Tell you wanna be an organised person, but I'm just naturally not here I can be very messy. I love myself embrace my messages. Guy embrace it will. We think it. Grief in greeting. You have read Burke finding meaning the sixth stage of grief. Tell me how this came about. Tommy how you started writing about the sick stage and how that worked with winded Elizabeth Cooler Ross die two thousand and four two thousand and four so tell me about this book posts
her death. So Elizabeth than I had conversations about is there are six stage. Is there more stages, we will talk about, meaning hope, purpose things like that. But she obviously didn't really. You know wanna go here. The stages that much and so what had happened is I had over the years also been fascinated by Victor Franco's work in this area of meaning and how, in our darkest moments to we find the light had, does might exist in the darkness, and so I thought about meaning in grief, and I wrote probably a couple a chapters on it and I wrote a couple of chapters on meaning And you know I had to start lecturing you're something in those chapters got put away
and they were somewhere on my desk. We are now talking about two two thousand and sixteen so many many years after Elizabeth had died. I have two sons and I was lecturing on the EAST coast and got a call that my younger son had died. It is the worst you can ever get at least it was for me, it was my worst call. I could get and my son David was gone. I couldn't believe it. I got home and cancelled everything and just tried to survive. It was just so heartbreak and still is. Hence always I was dealing with that. I was passing around just trying to survive and breathe and figure out what to do
the pain was so great, I said I wanted cause. I've had a career forty years of counselling parents. I wanted to write them all a note and say I had no idea how bad Your pain was so one item sit out in my office. Lectures are cancelled, everything's over in my mind anyway, an I run frosty's chapters on meme
them up and I went like that's gonna help and threw them down and then couple weeks later I saw them again and I started reading them and I was shocked. The idea of meaning did not take away my pain, but it gave me a cushion that I had not noticed before. So I began thinking more and more about meaning and asking people about meaning and talking to people who have their spouse die. How did they find meaning there sit? pulling their parents their pets. How did you find meaning? And it became a life raft for me, and I also noticed at the same time, because there was the father, so many people said: how does the grief expert
deal with the death of his son. In my answer was always the grief expert wasn't dealing with the death of her son. The father was yeah. I have this very my son, and so when I thought about that, I would notice the part in my brain was still the Greek. Expert watching and I would notice I'm in some stages here. By men, anger he up. No, I can't believe it I'm in denial yeah, I'm goin back what, if I could have done this differently, mighty still be here and bargaining, certainly sad to pray,
and then ass time went on when I began to dance with the concept of acceptance. I thought this can't be yet I mean I had noticed one of our fight about the stages with that people thought there was an end to grief and that you would get to acceptance and be done, and I just thought acceptance is not enough. I need to find meaning I need find meaning from my son and so just in talks. All of a sudden. My publisher was like this is a book you ve got to write it. I talked to the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Foundation and her fan
and I said this is what I want after acceptance. I think this is what our world needs now, and they were so amazing that they gave me permission to had a stage to those iconic stages. I think for people in grief who don't care about which model is the correct one. The stages are a little scaffolding that just helps. You know there is something there's a sort of structure loosely that will be there for me and I wanted them to know. As you deal with acceptance, there is meaning there, life mattered, their death mattered and meaning can be how we market. When I read the story about David and Richard you're,
their son well person I couldn't breathe. It is the call that all of us, I guess, fear more than anything and that's one of the later chapters in the book, but I thought about it from my most empathic place and I dont think acceptance enough for me either right, here's the thing we want it to be linear, we what exceptions to be the end, because we want it to be over, but you make so clear that heart stay broken right, and this piece about meaning just unravelled me and a really Powerful ways I just have to say thank you pretty all this? I have to add a sixteen each to this model, and you know
talk about its, not linear. It's not a pattern. It's not a map! It scaffolding when idly then too. What Elizabeth Cooper ROS gave us in what I've leaned into what you have given us one thinks it's really helpful for me, is there is a scaffolding, but for more more than that for me, there's some normalizing right right. When I find myself in negotiating with the universe, are negotiating with God or trying to think of this is the butterfly a fact and if I would have taken earlier flight than that it normalizes for me, some of the crazy making internally, that happens with grief like I'm not alone like this is what it means to be human into being grief. So I'm so grateful for that. Oh thank you. Thank you. So much had. Certainly one of my hopes was too
you know I sat here were literally exactly where I'm sitting with you. I sat here when that book was finished and I I ride, and I can only hope that this would help others he'll as much as it helped me. It's a beautiful gift and its there's so much meaning in it. So thank you. Ah, thank you. Ok. Can I ask them hard questions about the world today. Well, and let me ask you: can I give Honourable with you, oh yeah, Well, I knew I could it's a silly question tat. We don T do TAT, yes, you can ask me questions because I could give vulnerable with you our motto, Hot gases go vulnerable or go home while I'm gone vulnerable. Ok, so- I talk to people right now, since the pandemic since covered nineteen
and I say how are you doing and they describe how they're doing I hear grief yes, but when I come back and say had yeah there's a lot of grief, it needed no, no, I'm not angry. There's no great fear. I pray tell me about what you see us experiencing right now. We are all dealing with the collective loss of the world. We knew we knew is now gone forever. We talk about nine eleven to remember what the airports were like before nine eleven gap. We're going to talk about Do you remember what the world was like before the pandemic, I dont know how this is going to change it, but it will we're gonna, find meaning we're gonna come out the other side of this
and we're gonna say things like to remember in the old days when we used to shake hands, how crazy was that or whatever it is what this world that we ve all been accustomed to his now gone and we are collectively just like you said so many people are feeling heaviness, so many people are talking about I woke up in cried. I went to bed and cried and just like you, I'm like its grief, and yet there is a part of us, the ghost grief, no one died yet, and we don't understand when people say to me what is grief I'll say it's the death of something, the death of a love, one, it's the death of a marriage. It's called a divorce. The death of our relationships called a break up. A job loss is the loss of that work. World you had. This is a collective loss of
world. We all lived in before the pandemic and we like every other loss to know what we have until it was gone, and so here we are, and just like you were all trying to find ways to virtually hold each other's hands were in this together. It is not going to be forever, it will end, there's not a dark night that stays, and yet we have to feel these feelings. We ve got to feel the grief and he gets the thread through every pod guess I've had so far. I just at a pod cast last week on comparative, set
green and rank ordering how bad we haven't denying our feelings of grief and loss. But I have to tell you when you say I mean I'm looking at you right now, because we're doing this remotely and when you say the world, we knew it before this pandemic is gone. I just want to burst into tears. I just want to have normal back like talk to me about grief and the loss of normal. Well, that is what we feel in were feeling so many losses: the loss of physical connection, the loss of routine, the loss of work, the loss of physical touch, the loss of gathering for meals, the losses gathering for worship. I mean we don't have enough time to count the losses, we're all in countering right now, that's what's really underlying this hand, I don't think we have an awareness of it
one of the things that people have said as well. Why do we need a name, a grief, because if we don't name it, we can't feel it right. We have to name this. We have to invest for what this is and we want to Always compare losses, and this is really imported. Has people are dealing with their kids? You know I come from a world where people are going which one is the world is at your husband of forty years or is it your child and I'll go? Stop stop we're not going to compare, Forty years of marriage or a child was the worst losses, always yours, my gosh. I won't stop that again. The worse loss is always your loss. So now in this world, where we're like ass parents, maybe we're trying to protect our
kids did not touch door knobs and things when they were going out or whatever and their complaining about. Their missing school or their missing. Seeing their friends and we're going we're trying to stay alive, we have to remember school is maybe their worst lost. They ve ever had not playing in the football game. Is their worst loss right, now and I'm telling you as a bereaved parent who, if we wanted to play the game of who has the worst losses. You know this the czech marks that I didn't know I mean I came out of a mother dying in a shooting and every parent I mean I could like win in the game. If I tried it but I'm telling you as a borri parent- This is some hideous losses, wearin right now, and you can name them and their valid and their legitimate.
Did I leave you speechless. I must really yeah. I know you really did when we clean this thing out. Don't take out that long pause, because it will give everyone listening time till I catch their breath. You left me speechless. Tell me about the Paris of long spoons, yet such an interesting story that I just fell in love with it. It's this idea of this man is brought into this. Long dining room area, and he just smells the sky. Anxious food, and they just knows there is this amazing meal being provided, and he goes into this hall with all this amazing food and they all have these long spoons. That because the spoons you're so long there a few feet long. You can bring it to your mouth. You can't reach the food and bring it here ass to the spoon is so long. You can't feed yourself it. He he's in hell right
that this is where I met ride him he looks and instead, Everyone being happy there at this occasion there gaunt in their starving, he has told this- is hell, ok then he's taken into another dining hall, where it's just that best day of everyone's eating and joyous and happy, and they have the same long spoons, but they are all feeding each other and he is told that is Heaven, so the difference between Hell and Heaven is taking care of each other and care of each other and boy we're came a learning that right now, oh my god, long spoons and all wrongs and all long spoons it out. You know one of the things it's interesting you being from Houston choose I have an interesting relationship, everyone I love lives and use tourists from Eu States brought. I came down to Houston to help and do some disaster work after the floods
I am in I'm neighborhood up to my way. Still, water people are going back to their houses for the first time, and I see a man drive up in a truck and take out like twenty pizzas, take out pieces and start passing them around and after he passed them around. I went up to him and I said: do you own? A pizza company goes no, and I said: do you live here? He says no, and I said what's this about, and he said this is a tragedy and people need to eat. I figured I should get them some food, how my marred the idea that someone thought to do that? I will tell you that, just to be each town proud, we do take care of each other. I think when things like this aggressive, we have a way of doing that down. Here. Ok
So I want to read something to you from your book artist asked you a question from your book. You write this chapter. That grief must be witnessed, who can witness and hold space for us right now when we're all in grief? What happens in a situation like this? Where there's collective grief and there's not someone who is on the other side of the fence and not experience in it? Can we hold space and bear witness for people in grief when were in grief dear she. What I'm asking a messing up, you're asking me about the long spoons, your oh, my god. I love the way we can do. It is by I'm gonna witness yours, you're gonna, witness mine, I'm gonna feed you you're going to feed me I live on a black here, in LOS Angeles, we don't know half our neighbours. We know. No. Ninety percent of our neighbours we need our own text with each other? Anyone need toilet paper. Anyone need this.
Don't forget the elderly man at the end of the street. Let's check on him. The parable comes to life for us we have to be taken here. We have to be our brothers keeper, our sisters, keeper. In this moment we have to witness each
Okay, I'm going to ask you a question. I don't have the data on it, so I'm just going to wing it, and then you can tell me whether this is mythology or real and whether it's not the right analogy. So my understanding is for bereaved parents. Marriage can become very complex when you both lose a child when there's a loss- and I know the statistics for divorce or very high after bereavement of a child- is that true still, is that recent research as well- I don't know if it's recent but I'll, tell you what isn't being asked to the research cuz. I do not believe a child loss is what causes divorce. I believe judgment of each other's grief causes divorce. Okay, hold the phone. Okay say that again, I believe that a child lost does not necessarily cause a divorce.
Our judgment to parents judgment of how each other's grieving is what causes the divorce. What happens is we all grieved differently find this isn't just about? All of this is like one man dies or dad dies. We I believe. If we launch our child, we're gonna, grieve exactly alike. If we love dad we're going to grieve exactly like. If we love mom will grieve exactly like, then, if we don't grieve exactly alike, we look at each other and we begin to make up. Confabulation young worries that our Should we go? Oh, I guess I didn't love mom as much as I did. I guess you know my wife, my husband
love our child. The way I or they are moving on to quick and we become isolated in our grief. We try to make each other a grief councillors when I work with parents. One of the first things I try to do is set up separate communities to support them that they cannot, when a child dies to people with a an empty tank cannot fill each other up, and yet that's what we do to do. Do we see that right now around we're in this collective grief, we ve got so many losses and were so judge mental toward each other right now the judgment in this Shame that thing, I always say, is judgment a man's punishment. Oh my god. I now want to make your crazy with this podcast, but I just gotta, ask you to say it again judgment
demands punishment, say, will tell ourselves or punish someone else when we judge it hurts us are heard someone. I gotta get my head around this, for a second judgment deserves punishment, a man I do not see this as I knew this was happening like Bernay Brown, he'll, thyself, ok,. Judgment here: thyself, ok, judgment dominions, punishment So when I feel super judges toward someone, then it all about punish them psychologically or punish yourself. You are going to feel bad in your judgment. Oh my god job this is gonna, be a takeaway quote. You can just yeah, I'm just that's too damn bad, I'm innocent workers. That is true, and that is painful, and that is shame inducing, and that is what happening in the world right now
yeah, ok, question for you had so many questions remain this book and I was like what a job I have where I get to talk to you and ask you. I just like the luckiest person, all yours so sweet, I'm feeling proudly only right. Nor do I choosing they want to know that I don't now. Is it ever too early to try to find meaning? Do we ever use meaning seeking as a pole, vault out of pain. You are so good, yes and if there's been a surprise about this book, is people Walker,
when the like I'm trying to find meaning. Should I get your book, I'm trying to find meaning and I'll go? When did your love? Wonder no go. I can't find meaning and I'll go. When does your love one day two months ago? I am, I think it's not a bypass to the pain dammit. You can't use it to spiritually bypass the pain you have to go through. You're gonna, be in pain. You gotta, let the pain happen. There's no way around the pain. If you don't feel you can't he'll it, you ve got to feel that pain, meaning will be the cushion but you ve got to feel the pain in another place that people get stuck his they'll think there's meaning in the death. People will go well. Who was murdered, there's no meaning there or my love, one died of rules, hydrastis, no meaning, and I got the meaning- is not in the death. The meaning is what we do after the meaning is in us. That's where the meaning lies
that's what we can create. I wish I could see you right now. I've got my arms folded across my chest and my head caught to the side, like my dad listening to me, trying to explain why there were cigarettes and the better pickup truck when I was six like like I'd like. I don't like this, but I love it when I it's hard a cake, the meaning is not in the death. The meaning is in me. So there's this thing. That really bothers me just bugs about me where there's this movement. That says I am grateful for this horrendous trauma because cause it taught me this or I'm grateful. Is there any way that we can be grateful for what we learned, but not grateful for the loss? trauma view at movement, I'm talking about very bright, get down for you. First of all, the time you remember, there's I think at six or seven guy AIDS and thoughts around meaning in the book and the first one is. You're laws, one that I think is the fifth one.
Laws is not a blessing. It's not a task. It's not do you know about gratitude. Laws just happens in this world death happens in this world. Let me breakdown gratitude for you and how that works in all use myself as an example. But first let me just say when people initially have this thought of finding gratitude. I will talk about early on, there's no gratitude to be found. Usually when I talk to people about gratitude early in grief, I use the word with like you taking a shower in getting to work today in your grief, is a win yeah! That's a win! You still taken carrier, other kids is a win
even though your husband just left you that's a win in time. As you process move through experience feel some of your grief. There comes a point where gratitude can appear, and it's interesting at one of my lecture. Someone said to me: I was taught about gratitude in another section and they were. Can you find gratitude around your son who died? Can I paused- and I thought about it- and I could not have done it a moment before there, but I said yes, I can and here's how I can do it there's one worse tragedy in my
mine. Then my son dying at twenty one years old, the worst tragedy would be if I never got to meet him this lifetime. I am so grateful. I got to meet him and be with him this lifetime. Am I grateful he died. Of course not. Am I grateful for the trauma after, of course not if this is a book that helps millions of people,
I am grateful. It honours him, but I'd rather have him back, I'm always gonna off for him back, I'm never going to go. Oh I'll, take the gratitude of the wind, so the crowded to just like the meaning is not in the death its gratitude for the life, the person. You got to know its gratitude that that person got to be your father. This lifetime its gratitude, your mother was your motherless lifetime, your husband, your wife, your partner, your kids. It didn't have to happen that way. You didn't have to have those kids dislike. That's right! That's right! You didn't have to have this husband this lifetime. He couldn't
at some one else. You gotta met someone else s the gratitude. The gratitude is around the person, not the trauma. For me ass, a really I mean just so important and helpful because that new wants of making the gratitude around the loss in the trauma is, I think, very misleading confusing for us. You know I just it's a hard thing. I wonder when we talk about pandemic that we're in right now and this collective grief in so many losses. We can't even count them and I do believe- and I even bleed more after reading your book. I do believe we'll get to a place of meaning. What is it about us? I've written this, probably in every book, I've written in ten years that we are all so busy chase extraordinary moments down yonder drawing their so can I said yeah
were so busy anything exit ordinary moments that we use a guy named meaningful moments naming mean for a moment when we go what's the meaning in this fine meaning in a pandemic bert during this pandemic. You- and I can create this meaningful moment together. Let's name, this has a meaningful moment. You took action for us to talk today and that was meaningful. One of the things that broke my heart. I was at the end of my book tour. I went all this happened and I was fighting and crazed at the end. To not let go because one of my last stops was to meet with gold, star families They had served our country and I was not cancelling on them. I like they still want to come, and I heard yes, I don't care if we're getting sick and then it kept getting ready
two hundred and fifty and unlike what they were like, we can't do it either, but I How do you see all these emails are people who had lost their bereavement groups as they couldn't go, people whose parents just died in a hospital they couldn't have a funeral and in these moments I have to go. What can we do have meaning right now, and I were I don't know, I'm a grief specialists stuck at home. You know what daily, every day now we ve moved grief on line. I have a free online grief group for people to join and we are just collectively going to grieve together anyone whose had a death until grief.
It's open again and councillors have their teller. You know medicine in tell a thing set up, but I didn't want people in grief. What that's how I found, meaning in this, your podcast, his meaning? How can we all do meaningful moments in them? That's our control! What helps us is to realise our eye. I can wash my hands, I can safely physical distance and I can still creek meaning right now in a pandemic has a and when you're in a meaningful moment, name it and be creating the horrid name. Ok! You are amazing, I make sure, but it gets information about your online free grief group, because thank you for doing that its course. Of course, no import if your listing right now on the episode page, Umbria Brown, dot com you'll find the book a link to that David's doing right now, you'll find where you can
I'm ready, I feel in the blank for me. And with a kind of a fan, ten question, rapid fire or eight yeah, I'm ready, I feel in the blank. For me, vulnerability is love. Thinking on ok, right, ok, David you're called to be brave, but you're in real fear. I mean you can feel it in your throat. What is the very first thing you do count to three and take a step forward, so saying that people often get wrong about you that I am funny I am I haven't like. I ran into a neighbour that I work with twenty years thirty years ago, and she said to me: oh I'd love to be your friend, but I can't talk about death all the time.
And I'm like if you're my friend, we're not talking about death all the time. So people don't get I'm actually like really funny, and I to do this kind of work, I have to balance it with play. That's it for sure, ok last show that you binge and loved ones. That I'd be injured and laughed. Oh, my There are so many of them watching the crown on I'm crazy for, curve, your enthusiasm is just so. You know cash. All the things that I band, I have to admit. People find it sorry, but I'm all love at all, still. If there's something about how to put a roof horses your home, I'm watching home in Peru Mitchell? I learnedly that's good. I love it right. What about a favorite movie, a favorite movie? What met one of my favorite movies in favour books of all time is probably
tale of two cities. I also love on stranger than fiction. I just got lots of movies out there. I love, ok, a concert. You'll, never forget a concert. I will never forget. You know it's interesting. Let me get vulnerable when I was child. I went with my parents to mobile Alabama and they were in sheer incomes. Shocking is. If you look at a picture wooden Seeing share Schumann, Exactly the same as like when I was like twelve watched, Ok, so it's always my first concert- and I was I is literally a couple years ago, touring, Australia and they said
oh you know, since you're here we thought it might be fun. We got you guys, tickets to the sheer show, and I might really I'm seeing share again like fifty years later, criminals full circle. Our struggle share. Ok, about a favorite meal. I am like a meat, loaf and mashed potato or a fright, again and mashed potato guy, I mean I'm a southern guy at heart. You are a Texas friendly Ok tell us, what's on your nightstand, what's on my nights, and is, unfortunately, my phone, which I am not proud of. Sometimes there's a course in miracles. There a lot of times it's a remote for that Ebay, I used to have a patent pen there, but now I'm just getting, in the middle night? If I'm writing a workers and I'll just dictate into the phone, but it used to be a pattern pan, but now it's my fault. I did the same. Ok last
to a snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life. That brings you real joy. Just a snapshot of picture. There would be of me walking with Paul Lucy or dog. Just working beautiful, what are you deeply grateful for right now? Well, in this moment, I am deeply grateful for you. Thank you. I am deeply grateful for you to thank you, David for, join us on locking us this podcast. Your book is going to walk with so many people through such a difficult time. So. Thank you very much. Thank you for doing this, I hope you got as much from this as I head is such an important conversation for me and I again really wanna thank David, for
walking ass through helping us understand. More about what we are experiencing and feeling and more about what it means to find meaning. You can check out or about David, at grief, dot, com. You can also look on Instagram. He is, I am David Kessler, Twitter, I am David Kessler and Facebook I am the you can, So go to Bernay Brown, dot com our website- and I don't know if you know this or not, but we have behind the scenes- photos web links, all kinds of show, notes for everything, episode. So if you go to bring a brown com- and you click on the podcast. Take you to the main podcast page, and then you can click on any episode to learn more about the people in conversation with where Find them and were to learn more
offer join us and a huge shut out to David Kessler and his new book finding meaning the sick stage of grief is. Saleable at all of your local bookstores? Thank you.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-26.