Tarana is a good friend and one of my favorite people on earth. She has been working at the intersection of racial justice and gender equity for nearly three decades, and she started the “Me Too” Movement in 2006. In 2017, when the #metoo hashtag went viral, Tarana emerged as a global leader in the evolving conversation around sexual violence.
In this episode we talk about how her theory of “empowerment through empathy” is changing the way the world thinks and talks about sexual violence, consent, and social justice. AND, we also talk/cry/laugh about falling in love, running as fast as we can from love, and the perils of sharing a bathroom with the guys we love.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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hi everyone, I'm Bernay Brown, and this is unlocking us. This episode is presented by audible. So,
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For as long as I can remember actually but almost exclusively nonfiction, because I I I read so much Nonfiction well
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from my eyes to see a high soft hill thick with brass.
My father stand straight ahead. I felt it
ouch to fall on my knees and beg him to take me back.
But instead I forced myself to step down onto the ground the moment my foot touched he and his chariot
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Where have you been and as they are
in walking he's like even gone for an hour and forty minutes, and I was seven miles because
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here I think,
Episode we're talking to my dear friend someone I just respect more than I can even say. Toronto Burke terrain
has been working at the intersection of racial justice and gender equity for nearly three decades fuel.
A commitment to interrupt sexual violence and other systemic issues that disproportionately impact marginalized.
Are women and girls, Toronto.
created and lead campaigns that have brought awareness to the harmful legacies surrounding communities of color spaces.
Thickly her worked in sexual violence has not only expose the ugly trees of sexism and spoke truth to power. Its also
increased access to resources and support for survivors and paved the way forward for everyone to five
their place in the movement
two thousand and six times
who founded the meat to movement
Today that hashtag the changes were seen. The voices were hearing. She started that movement and she started it, and community centres and church, basements and
working one on wine
with young girls and women.
I want to let you know that today's episode has some very candy
explicit conversation around sexual violence so
This is a topic that
is especially difficult for you don't listen alone. Listen with a friend, listen with some support,
that's not something you can do. That's all right, too,
Tehran Burke why
why are you so far away today?
I wish I was. There was really for corona by accident, even drink beer.
yeah? This is sad that we are all in the four corners of the earth. China connect to each other still.
The other half the last time we were together. I think this, alas said we were together. We were in the
a car singing wholly, but we,
we're making videos- and I singing, I think, earth one
in fire. Yes, a new, really brought it home with that.
Correctly, I beg you took the handles, then it was very good
I don't know if I have the video I have to put it up. Only unlocking ass podcast page beeper
I just know that we are lacking so hard. You can barely make out the song world is there, but that always happens
this is not always happened, good times what we,
responsibly socially distancing- and I wish you were here so I could give you a big ol, haggling and captured.
But you are there- and I am Levin on you from here in Houston, said and then I want to jump in with the Big NEWS first
less Goering Gay, your aged, I am, I am engaged now for what is this month for about three or four months, the air time telling I
Why funny story? It's a person, I'm not for thirty years, air so interesting how life works.
I met him and I was sixteen and he was older than me and I didn't know resulted.
The time he didn't know, how would I was I now he was, and we start to talk for little little,
I never forget.
Today we were, we were right.
Lived, my comp and my project flatworm from abroad, and so at never die
guy in my neighborhood before and I walked into his building, and he was talking to me about.
Being a grown man all as others have no thank you not across cause. I assumed he was like ninety, you know have fight. He was in college
and he pulled out his idea said sixty five and I like you
I grow man. I was one seventy three: it's this can't work yells like I'm. Sorry you to offer me and fast updating him, but we we kind of state friends and then from that point on, did him again
then in college, and then my side had to step debts and unfortunately, Bolton had passed away and the first one died in two thousand and one, and I had seen him in a few years. I was doing all the funeral arrangements for them
I've never used the most grown up thing. I've ever that. At that point, the add on my life, that's Harding grown up. Oh yeah, my mom just couldn't policy
other she's using the person sees the rock in the family and she couldn't quite pulled together, so I'm making making a registered a funeral, and I literally physically bumped into him on the street.
and it was like any disease.
And he took off the rest of the afternoon and he
literally just took me around- to get to the flowers to buy the clothes and took me to lunch, and I just was like thank you. I don't know how I would have made it to this day. That was too
One but I lived in Alabama needed in Europe, so we did a little bit than that and work out, so we ve done this dance.
Like friend, dating friend, dating forever
a few years ago. I moved back to New York. He.
Out in touch with me always finds me, is very interesting. Social media came about any figures out.
to find me or he'll go to my mom's house? Does you live in the same apartments like thirty five, so yeah
you s, he'll find me anyway. You found me a few years ago. We started dating again. The timing was just off again. It was like. I was China,
can't pull my life together. After the I went to school law,
long story short. We had a little bit
That's a monstrous time between twenty fifteen and twenty seventeen China, China Day and right before me, too went viral
this is like. I don't want to see. I don't think I want to see you anymore, like he had done something that is really just got on my nerves.
Like- I don't think I'll see you anymore I'd women-
I so long, I'm just done with it.
And I thought the moon and then
last year, and I was I like this is
I'm the newer seriously down you like, I was down and out alive.
I have to tell you this man has asked me to marry him twice before and after now said no,
and so you know.
F unusual for men, like mostly they they
One time and the nets it at all
so I don't buy. I had said no so anyway, and I think when I said and twenty seventeen that I was done, he was kind of done too.
Because he's like you can never make up your mind. I've been sure for you now twentysomething years and you never sure so we ball
when I separate ways anyway last year, I finally my other stuff father passed away and it was really hard because it was really sudden.
Oh now year he went into the hospital on April. Eleventh with he'd know you woke up like April lemon. He was fined
April twelfth human into the hospital, and they said he had sepsis and
I just made just got increasingly worse his can't it confines cancer come back and it was stage for metastatic and within six weeks he was you know we were talking about having to take my life support
and it was at that moment than he comes back right. I get a text message randomly salmon and keep taken about you. I can't stop thinking about you, I'm sorry. What have I did that, as you know, and I get these measures every few
Mines, but this house's, like really move
and so I answered it M god- he's the kind of person. If you give him an inch just.
The truth is relentless. Gonna. Take your heart, oh my gosh, but what was really does really so literal, because this time, whatever happened, eighty months, that we were separated changed him, and he says this is south. He's like I didn't know how serious like when you left- and we want our separate ways is like the minute I walked back does like this is. I should fly like this
mistake and some of the things that were like driving me crazy. He had started working on, or at least acknowledging and I'll. Tell you the biggest lesson from me. He came.
So we came right before my dad passed like literally a day or two before, and then he we talking Halonen
day after some other was step, must adapt was muslim, so he was buried immediately. He he passed away like twelve, like right after midnight on Friday, and he was in the ground by Saturday night, while which was also I've. I've never had a muslim funeral. I've never done had that experience and so
It was jarring to have just seen up to now been with their wait. There's there's a Keynes yeah
ray and are in our life in our death in our tradition, right where its leg it slow.
When people are coming into town and it's a ride and do all of these arrangements. This was like get it done and he's literally in the brown on Saturday night and
yeah you know now that I've had the experience, though I kind of appreciate it. I kind of have an appreciation for how quickly that move and it forces you to come to terms, and then you know it's not to jump. You don't continue to grieve, but it's situated the grieving process differently from me,
really hurt on Sunday and he came and gotten he and took me to the park and we sat in central Park like six hours after he had worked like it. You know,
the shift overnight. Analysis like while really miss him- and you know
There are some things we had to untangle, always always either coming back and so each other's lives, and then it was a moment where he said to me: are you ready to get married? We have been just talking, maybe two or three weeks, and
oh god. Here we go again with the marriage thing. You know it always comes down to this marriage thing with you, and he said I'm not saying I want to get weed out to get my tomorrow, but I'm not going to proceed from here if you're not
to get married and I was indignant outside. Are you giving me a of Meda? I got your face. I didn't. I didn't see you right now like outside wait what
happening here at TED you're supposed to be grateful to be back. Let's just with it rubble and now he's like I do, I love you, I'm glad we're back together, but everyone I said: if you are you saying to me, if I don't marry, you did you gonna leave and he said not right away.
That can I need a minute. You knowledge is needed. Let me sit within. He was like Toronto. It's been thirty years. You know
or you don't know. You think it is natural that didn't you say as much. You know it's not gonna happen, but you know- and I just as I ok.
I do know I'll just so scared like it just those garriga me, but you know what the conclude
I came to them around his long engagement story up, but the conclusion I came to was really
I don't have anything to lose in a way that is dismissive of how much I love him, but, like I have done heartbreak already, you know I've done it. I've done. I abhor
he's broken, my heart of other men is broken. My heart. I know what that looks like. I know what it feels like. I really know.
No, the other side with light and like if I walk into this situation and it didn't work
I know how to survive. Rags I've done enough survived outbreak. I meant much experience and coming back from that, but I don't have any experience in being loves, fully incompletely and haven't somebody who is dedicated to like being a better person making you a better person in having a really good,
you know, wanting to love you to life as it holds to you to death rate at I haven't had that experience and he's so committed to loving me in I just outside TAT. I want to know what this is like another side and yet
that ETA method. I think I'm not gonna work out, but again, if it doesn't I'll, be ok, lack evidence that I can survive and hope
so Christmas he came with this ring and propose in front of my whole family,
officially. I already agreed that, but this is like the official proposal and in
Here we are again Mary, the son, I'm really really happy for you, I'm so excited to the gut person.
It's funny because I dont
I've done anything in my life, harder, more vulnerable riskier
Then letting myself beloved
said a whole if hard.
It is ridiculous that it so hard it's hard. Now it's I don't know it's went right address.
When I got married and we had a long off again on again seven years, because we met too, we were young, we're right out
we got married. I was seen at therapists cause. I was like this is not going to work out eager and I finally went into the therapists one day, and I said this is just not gonna work. You know, I just can't do this.
and she said he. I share your concerns. Oh, I said exactly right.
and she said yeah, it's just here
like she's, so much more than you like. You know like in front of a guy- that's bullshit you're fired,
Yes, you decide, you know he
really sees you and loves you and cat. Is that terrifying? For you.
and it is in its so
messy. It's, like the only metaphor can think of for like Hell,
feels for me, as we have this bathroom, where we have seen are kind on different sides of the bathroom likely bathroom, but you two different scenarios and
Mine is a hundred, don't listen to their Steve
three times, grocer and messier and like cluttered than hes, but if one
It is out of place on his eye, like I can't live like this over here and it's like we like you, but I can deal with my own shit, but now I have to untangle my shit from yours line and then I you your bring in your own message of this, which is,
probably not even as Matthews my mask, but it's hot
And remember, nay, you have really just explained our life cause. I've also never lived with a man like my daughter's dad for maybe six months when I was first pregnant. We broke up, you know a long time ago, and so I've never seen as an Adele is a full grown functioning. Adele. I've never lived with the partner. So this culture
but haitian thing has also been interested living together, already we're living together. That's been, it's been six months that we ve been living together and, oh is
interesting, sharing, spacer, I'm I'm a virgo, and I am I am I'm forty six
and only raise the child unanimous. So my living my cohabitation as I've been charged
Of everything I don't know what Virgo means, but I do go at forty six in charge me do you know you know like any time up shared space. Another person, I could say, pick up your shit, you're staffs, give me, and
and you know I want to
go here and that to go there, and I don't want to hear anything about it in his leg.
He is its interest in here
clean he's, he's a very clean
That is not an orderly person.
I don't want you mean. Ah, jobs need that still he'll be like a little
I hate to see dishes stacked up in a sink, but then he'll get up and have cereal and leave the cereal box open on counter with the ball would have
but what is the real half of being a milk in it and I'm looking at her whole raised so, but he is like, if you're, in a good place in your feeling like in
Have you like uh sweet guy,
a box and
if you're not gonna get a place like this,
really demonstrates. The cord difference differ
between our values, in what we believe in a world in each other and the cereal box, is everything to the matter of exactly what existed. No, it's been. We have we're gonna couples counselling and you know it's been going
because we can he's. You know, he's a guy that died and is never done anything like that. So having him there, you know she's happy the first few sessions kind of looking like I don't know this. Lady
and I've been in therapy for years, sounds like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. I'm he's like I'm not interested in this, but then he's found out that in a way I can say the things
but I can't say to you in here and you can
get mad. You can't live now
Frida, nay I, but it's good. It's been such a growth process for me and I don't think I've done anything.
The south terrible to say about it, I've done anything in a long time. It really pushed me and made me
Oh you know me, my oh yeah
a kind of fill a gap in coasting on what I know how I know how to live. Work- and I myself in China be better and maintain
in the Baroness Ashton that you know
You think you know at all, even some of the things that we ve discovered in therapy. I've discovered about myself as excellent one. You dont know it all at all. You don't have all the answers
is that, right, all the time in this person is a human being who had
some insight and who actually knows you have that really gets me
yeah thanks, that's just the worse! It's the
its ambassador mean it's like to be seen and known and loved like it's. Why were you
you're right and then why do you want a punch summit
the things sometimes I don't know the debt is like, don't see
you don't know me, yeah,
I just I know and dont know me to look away
easy, I'm going right about me away. Yet I've found ability thing is is interesting in this is interesting, a watch him fine safety, because I also know you know this is a list of fifty four YO black man. Who's been trains like you work hard and take a family. You love! You moment you take adequate. You know, like that's his yeah
is saying and I'm just like you deserve a more robust life than that. So you know, like
you deserve to be right, joyous and happy in vulnerable, like this is a place where you can do that, and my cracking into that and watching him response like he'd, never smiled and pictures before he's, as always,
even the back years and years and pictures unless he's with his kids he's barely smiling at. I have this picture from his birthday at second,
So our land I had to go to Ireland only came with me, but we made it into a birthday trip and went to like the race car, a thing like that are so he got alike
race the cars and then he want a little trophy and then we took this picture out and he has the biggest feels like a twelve year old boy. I put that picture up in our bedroom. Cuz. I'm like this moment right here
just to remind you that you deserve to feel like this all the time or as much as possible right lay. It's ok felt like I think so many men feel like they can't tap into that side of themselves, because you know what does that mean about you,
yeah. Well, it's been grateful both of us. I think I'm really happy for you yeah and feeling all the bumps with you and you know we status
you show up with the people. We love right. We have no idea what we're doing little. Yes, the death of
feeling. Even we have no idea either
Anthea. That's like you, Stephen
Had no option
answer. Both are all we have eight now foresight.
Suddenly parents are ones divorced and re married and divorced in remarry didn't have a lot of models about what it meant to be with someone you know
in a way that we want to be with each other? So we just headache now we just try to commit to keep showing up like and figuring it out, and sometimes it so.
Furthermore, even Mary, knows been women,
other thirty years last year of unmarried twenty six or something I think tank
there are three two may be heard and together twenty said Emily married twenty six. This amazing.
so, when I ask you something, as you said, something that I
two I want to talk about me too.
And I want to talk about something-
you just said about your fiance that reminds me of something I quote that I read from here
You said, love your wife. Take care of your family work hard, but there's more
and that more is joy and that
or is fully lit, living and lean into the vulnerability, including the new, the beautiful love
events in the joy moments in those things that are just so hard. You know I
Are you in and I'm going to try to grab it cuz, I'm actually pulling it out of my head right now, but it said I was talking about,
Me too, black lives matter.
These are not anger movements, oh yes, these are declarations he
we're not in these movements shoe.
live a life of anger and rage were in these movements to declare
that our lives matter there?
you're not alone, if you're a survivor of sexual harassment, sexual abuse, and that we are entitled to full lives of joy yeah did I get that
says that's too cold. I remember then. I remember the interview, but I remember saying oh yeah. I think people get that wrong so much that it's it's.
You know because we're interconnected its people just humans, that I think test, and then you know this is my thinking
Hours are always feel like what I hope is research to back this up, but I think because, where because we're interconnected as people as human beings, that when one group of human beings talk about the ways that their lives have, you know the world has failed in the way that these systems of oppression, hash, failed of other groups of people feel like it's an indictment of them or that they are somehow personally respond.
Both at each individual life, there's accountability to have to happen in our own oppression. We know about why supremacy, no by all these different things, but mostly we are talking about like we need that we need to have the ability to say it's just like everything else. We have to be able to say it out loud and declare it so people understand. Why did you have to? If you can't hear me, I feel it
Can't see me up, that's right. Isn't that right, the it I'll say it again, if you can
and hear me that I think you can't see me it's
like if you're on a desert, island and I'm scream indiscriminate screamin and yelling. I'm not thinking that you can.
See me because you can't hear me I'm like
lab in my arms and elegant way than an unknown people just doesn't feel like
it can be seen. If you can't be heard. That's right, I think that's so.
How it so I decided to take a minute with that year,
it ought to be seen and known and loved, is the only reason were here and if you can't hear me, you can't see me.
Yeah, it's an important distinction, I think for people, because it's you don't have to take an affront to me, raising my voice to me. You have to be to feel like it's a personal affront right that I'm saying I have to say this happened to
two. It does as much for me as its doing for the world like I needed personally, but the world needs to hear too, because we will erase groups of people if their silent, we will just forget. They exist because it's easy because who must,
look at the mass you know it's like talking about our house earlier. You know there are two types of people always think about the people who sweep pals into all over the house, but they don't actually pick them up. He figured out at an people like sweep it put an understanding, doorway whatever, but you know we will we not lights, though those of us who sweep it up and put it in a garbage would not like to look and mess. We don't want to look at that. I want to just put it
and makes us in the garbage whatever and you'll forget about things. If you don't see them, we don't want. I would rather not look at them ass. I would rush even as a black person. I would rather not think about racism and oppression as a survive. I would rather not think about the things that I don't have and the things that happened to me Adam.
To think about, and so I know the people who don't experience them don't want to think about them. But how do we live together? If we're not privy to our? I have a whole space for everybody's experiences and in reality, how do we call exists?
you know just in general, I don't think we can, and I think this
idea about being,
wrapping words around
experience is about
movements, like me, too,.
And black lives matter.
Not being movements of anger but expressions of our wholeness lending.
de the love joy. I just
I do not think anyone has led me more
fiercely and lovingly through that
Understanding than you- oh thank you,
folks. Listening right now, so Trot Burke founded the me to movement in two thousand six.
and it wasn't a hashtag. I wasn't a Hollywood movement,
the way. I understand it and correct me if I'm wrong Toronto, it was a movement that have
in community seafarers and classrooms and church basements and places where
young girls who worse
Sure salt survivors to know that they were not alone yet? Is that right there's absolutely right? It was it
came about in a time when I just feel like there was no wakening, while looking around at these babies in our community, these young girls most
we who were in our programme, I was my best friend at the time and I had had started this leadership programme. The girls like parliament and leadership program called just be
and my goal, because I came up to a leadership programme. There really changed my life and I want it to continue
that experience more directly with black and brown girls. I didn't that. I didn't think about this until I got into the world
even? I came from this sort of civil. I was in some elements. I was surrounded by people who had made civil rights history, who had been a part of
movement in one way or another who were just really grounded and a social justice legacy, and I knew those people,
personally- and I knew the trauma that they had experienced both from
indirectly in the Movement Andrews from being. You know
living in low wealth, undisturbed communities for decades and.
I also know that when the movement last and all the hoop flowers was tat, died,
those people are left just to exist are now in a film is one of the others in Dallas. Counting Alabama is one of the poorest countries and I am a you know: people realise that this place that gave us democracy that reinvigorated democracy in this.
tree is been ignored, and so I went in with this goal of empowering these girls to make change in a community creating.
No doing leadership development with them so that they can go in effect change. You know, have the
how to do that and also to be grounded in the sense of self worth, like personally so
they go into a world says they're not worthy, as it often tells black girls that they would be empowered to face that lie. But what I found
We're a bunch of girls were very eager to do that work, but who were also carrying so much trauma and so much pain, and it started to feel the recent compared to the civil rights valses because it started to feel Annette
the girl. I arrived at the right where I'd like to some degree like unethical, to axe these girls to go out and fix it.
Immunity to be empowered to go in and go back and create change in a community without empower remember to create change in their own lives like without addressing the tree.
When they were holding in their own lives it just as as if it were just normal. Yes, we can't to skip over that
yeah in an end, you not, I think, that's what we do for a lot of activists. We we want them to be on the front lines, want them to fight against social and just
but we are not dealing with the traumas they're holding in their own communities, whether it's the charm of you know, poverty is dramatic.
Or ass violence. You know like all these different things occur in our lives and we don't work on false inside the same way we work on the outside, and so it was like. I need to pull back and figure out line. What does it look like to speak and animal aside a pastor with because it wasn't in the same way, but to speak healing
answer. These girls lies right now I've got a man, that's pestering or not, but jet its accurate yeah. Do you not be killed?
How do you know what my life and it was an attack,
When I was doing I was I missed personal journey, you know I was it was the beginning of like this, like the secret and not you know that was reading all the deepest chopper young
on that island of any biologists, it was desirable. Wellness, self, mindfulness and self awareness was kind of at a high. That moment- and I was just were racially reading- everything I could and those things this is probably too
I don't I'm not disparaging anybody's is my personal experience, but those things warrant helping me in what and then I think it was because it wasn't speaking so what I was looking for, which is also
some years later when I found your stuff, I was like. Thank you. Gotta pick the differences to self help stuff that I was reading at the time felt like it made me feel like
was doing something wrong: yeah Jeremy, it maybe your browser like that you're broke and you want to go out
side of yourselves.
Enjoy. You know you have to go. I remember when I found the gifts of imperfection inachus. Oh, I know because of a TED talk their files I had about year. I have a friend him Nancy, who
well, I've been Facebook friends with the like fifteen ten ten years or whatever, and and she's a psychologist and at sea posted. Your ted talk- and I was like- oh my god,.
I have been talking about shame and and
vulnerability, necessarily but the that what did the din.
Your shame and what it does to us impotently. It's about sexual violence and
and generally like related to being black people in America and how we, we notice all the stuff. Now, shame on
Founded got him any research or anything like that, and then I found- and I was like see said the lady Fani, the lady said, is ready, for that is that I just got you had
experience of working with thousands of people who have lived.
and my researches just I think you
Taught me there's no way. I could have told you more about shame than what you taught me that
kind of where we met in these kind of like we ve got to know
This thing the so yeah
yeah and I'm I realise, when I was with the girls, is that all is we shall deal with the shame factor we can't even get to the healing enter. They were wrapped in it, it was it it had become on yet another letter
and I had to re. I was walking with it, but is not sure,
we'll do that when, when a child mirror some of your insecurities, you see it clear and you like. No, no baby, not you at any rate,
the thing I'm holding right and I'm.
Connect these little eleven it
I'll be all girls who the same age as ours, and I was going through this day who have just adopted. The shame is like a coat of Amr. You know they had just adopted. This thing
go in there. I'm that deal with that. I am definitely this type of person, and so I operate from this place, cause I'm this type of person and that thing that they had taken on that this type of person was,
because of shame and their experiences were sexual assault yeah an among other things, but you know
I remember very clearly I'm writing right now
Some writing about a lot of this in and of this has come up, has been really painful because I remember very very clearly
knowing and understanding at about eleven
Bobby is all that. I was a particular kind of girl that I had gone past, a threshold of
Whatever a good girl wise, you know clean good right girl was. I couldn't be that this is because I had been left. It.
And I ve been sexually assaulted, em out and I did not. I did not ascribe anything to the perpetrators of the people who cause me harm, because I felt complicit in my own abuse, Emma Complicity, Cosmic Deak, shame, and so I just decided I'm just this type of girl and these type of girls
things happen to these type of girls and the best I can do to hide. The shame is to pretend
to the world's until at least make the world think that I'm a better person Samara BP
Have strayed ays do great in sport Emma do everything I can soon.
Wait, there's been near of perfection, so noble
can see what's really underneath here, which is this horrible girl who can't even keep people from touching her.
Is so complicated for twelve year old to carry that,
but an ant capitalism rocky the load- is impossible earlier because heart the dynamic
make that no one understands is what your naming right. Now again, you know you coming up with language for us, which is so much of sexual.
Abuse is making sure that the victims and targets and survivors of it feel responsible and complicit in their own violets. Yet
Guess so much of it, I that's part of the first key of unpacking. How you start this journey to healing is. I remember going through this therapy thing around of survivors and we went. We got through like in a week three or something like that, and they said we want to deal with. Anger
You know how you it was. It was a religious though a chart and those like how do you release your anger towards a person who caused to harm, and I remember talking sue the group facilitated Africa's. I would help call facilitate from her and said I don't. I don't actually have anger towards the people. Did this to me
Like I'm not an awaited should thinking you know, people out of the other survivors warlike, I hate them. I want to die, or you know like those guy. I didn't have that, because I took all the blame on myself
So I was mostly angry at myself. I didn t have the kind of angered other had some. I was like you know like why'd, you pick me kind of anger. You knowing. I wish you would just pick somebody else,
which is terrible from a child. My the year,
it took me a minute to I had to dig in and get the anger against that, and that was actually therapeutic for me and it was an opposite kind of thing like I had to become angry with them, so I can display some of the anger I have for myself that I had harbored for myself and put it where it belongs, which is why I was told survivors you got to put the
and where it belongs, it's not a burden to bear it such the it such the most complex and difficult.
part to me of shame is when we in turn
wise. During that
internalize the responsibility. The blame yeah is sometimes I
extra analyzing it without the right support in place is may be too much to bear yeah. No, I think it is, I think, extent analyzing it and in saying this you know you did this disruption
new cause. It it just this so much involved in that is somewhat understanding. Thickly, they happened as a child.
So much understanding that we don't have yet even about how the world works. That is required to do that, that you have too many people, and I don't think we talked about it enough. This is way that we talk about healing and survival that are really dogmatic. Like you do this to get here. You just person feels like that. This person
Like that, and is it's like you say it's really messy and complex is not we don't all experience it the same way in all fields.
Even for shame, but speaking about like the diversity of people who experience sexual violence. I have talked to people who are from asian families from South EAST asian families, from african immigrant families, black american families, latin next families, the universally
shame as a factor in what we experienced, but why we have shame varies. That's right greatly! That's right! Culture.
Because shame is driven by messages, and
speculation that are absolutely socio, culturally driven yeah yeah. It's this.
Anders or so does the,
expectations and messages. That feel shame are so culturally bound. Yes, they are, which is why we have to be careful about like how
I would just like a lot of people can't find themselves in the messaging this out and whirled around survival and arouse sexual violence, and I think a lot of survivors of color feel lost are left out or not seen, because we're not speaking specifically about how, without up the folks who are from asian families, may talk about the complete family. Shame Reno! I know a lot of immigrant families have the same thing or you talk about people from that next communities, who the reasons why
we don't have like they don't tell not because they had different choices they might tell, but in a we did appear say where the woman is a colombian or honduran. I can remember I'm sorry but she's talking about why she didn't tell when Uncle molested her, because she might have family deported by shooting, want to risk bringing
a law enforcement into their lives and they found being deported irons. How at I probably could have said
As an adult, I know that if I do said the Duke what I need to say the night that it happened, that my mother must have Father would have absolutely responded well and believe me, but eyes, sexual chow black girl being raised in an integrated community. What a lot of police activity in a lot of police violence even at six years old or out of six gonna, so I knew consequences, and so, if I put together inside of less than a minute, if I say this to my father, he's won't get his gun that I know he has.
He's, gonna go get this person and he's gonna go to jail, and it's gonna be my fall like I made a very adult decision at like six,
when years, all based on the world that I lived in it. How what I had seen how how're you know that our cultural norms in a community that has been raised, and so these things very from person to person community
culture, culture and we have to be sensitive today, and I think it's there's no way again to go back to what you said.
Earlier. That, I think, is so you know for me, just life giving and changing. We can't see people if we can't hear them and so
We have to hear the stories and hold
one story as their truth: either it whether it fly
our own experiences it it doesn't. It doesn't matter. We have to stop putting people stories through our own experience and take people stories as the truth, yeah an end, you bring you bring up something that I think is also important in terms of this movement right as hard as that is for a lot of people is difficult and bigots has. That is its also important, because if people dont understand what survival looks like then than they really
we'll be in a position to help survivors, because I make this joke autumn bout. You know we ve been watching law, Nora S for you for twenty years and the lead.
But most alot of people see our have gotten there. The breath of their knowledge around sexual violence-
Thank God. The show has shown a great diversity of issues and things like that, but it is also a television
show the drama. It's a drama. Re may gets dramatize things they get to have a happy ending the gets a tied up neatly in in forty five minutes. That's not how life works and if I'm telling nothing made this more clear from me in the last two years than the bright cabinet hearings and and and the response to doktor placed before
and watching people even false who were supporters of the movement. Liberal falls whatever you want to call them right, who were still questioning her, who still wanted her to be a stronger tab, stronger testimony who wanted how to remember more Hawaii.
And how to be different and then the naysayers phase, of course, without also clearly line, can cause because she doesn't membranous, because I watched people pick her apart and pick a part, her story, and then I listen to those of us who have survived this thing and we all thought the same
like or similarly it so amazing that all these years,
later she has the level of memories she has
The things that she remembered are very specific to the way and made her feel right when you listen to her
Somalia, she's right absolutely at it. This is a I remember with that work is that she said in my.
She's a scientist. She said some. She said something eleven indelible mark in her something and then the laughing
and the laughing and the smells like all things are trigger us right,
that that that we remember an hour- and I had this encounter- tell the story of because it brings a home for people. I had doesn't encountered the bathroom, because I was there at them in the hearings, which is also life changing, but I
in the bathroom door and a break right after she testified we'll all just like emotional and people trying to pull themselves together in and this woman who recognize me. You know stocks chatting and says: oh you know, that was something wasn't in all my goodness
and I was like yeah Bubba Blah, and then she said I just wish. I wish that she was just. I just wish she had a little more detail and I wish I was a little bit stronger.
Most. She is, you know, for lack of a better way to put it wearing the same five here and this woman right right and I was feeling some come. Rather, we with our farm moment like just a half a metre unload on in and she said that it was so jarring to me, and I said in a very really talk about my personal experience on purpose, but I turned to her, and I said you know what I'm forty two NOS forty five at the time. I am forty five and I was molested announce our first molest on. I was six years old and citizens their means,
for the last, like thirty nine years, I've been carrying this and all of the people who know me. Everybody knows me closely my close friends family. They know that I have a terrible memory like I'm notorious Tory. Everybody knows,
write it down in IRAN is not forget it, but you know best is ass. The ass a thing I'm China work on, but everybody knows it and I set it took me years to figure out that the reason why I have this terrible memory
is because I've spent every day for the last thirty nine years. Trying to forget, we don't want to have these memories. We don't want to
every detail. Imagine having every single detail of everything that happened to you. The worst thing that ever happened to you holding every last detail for forty years is horrific,
I am glad that I dont remember the color of my coat other past that I was I'm glad that I don't have those memories I want them.
So the fact that she could muster up what she could in there is heroic, and I hope that she can forget all of it at some point, because ass, the only saving grace this up for some of us is it is to get this thing out of our bodies at some,
Why are we never really can so do not stand here and tell me that you wish she had more memory because she suffer more rights.
she's already doing this thing
as the sole hurrah issue absolutely doesn't have to do, and we only say give us more give us more because we don't understand survival. We don't understand what it looks like what it feels like what it cost and because we not have that information
other people who have control of our lives, whether the jurors or
lawyers or people will make decisions about the last survivors. Dont have enough information about what survival looks like, and so you,
they double down on our trauma, because you ve made this decision based on something you saw on tv.
Some way to somebody else, you know survived and issues not is not right, and it's not enough. I'm really just taking it,
right now: trawler, unjust and hearing what you're saying and I I just keep thinking-
out. The human need.
separate ourselves from people who have experienced things that we fear.
And the need the knee,
For me not to believe things are true, because if they are true, it hurts too much onto afraid
Or I have to reflect on my own experience
says, and that I give me
I never thought about it to this moment? Where you're, like you, give me more,
detail I shot man. I've spent my whole life trying to
up and not remember every single detail, but we're not survivor centred where fur
Certain protective power systems in place entered then set.
Lee, though, for those of us
who really are trying to do the right thing, arson
awareness is not only
To think about what you're saying- and I just
yeah because she met well right like she was my right. This woman definitely was not aunt. I am she, you know probably wished her well and thought highly of her. She didn't, she wasn't mean. Just was
unaware, you know, and it was an end and in a political context it gets even worse, not conquer mean
so divided. Then you ve got the bear. All the barricades are billions that in this this deep polarization I have people who support the President Administration have a home
right in our social media pages on particular around this moment when the cabman here and will happen,
things like all good miss I was you know I was sexually assaulted. When I was a kid, it's not that big a deal she needs to get over. I mean tons of those letters
our women saying oh she's lying. This happened to me when I was set in certain areas of every single detail down to the letter. Like you know, she just gonna take down the president. Unlike Yawl, listen, listen week, how far gone? Are we really like the the we almost depleted of compassion? If this is the place that we are in that we can't even take a step back to see and hear you could want this man to take the place on a Supreme court and acknowledge,
this woman is telling the truth. You just have to be honest with ourselves and is the kind of honesty to people don't want to face the ear. You are creating a mean that statement like their trauma. You are creating an internal tension within people that we are slowly but surely losing our capacity to hold gentlemen, like that, we
we cannot hold to competing ideas very well together, so we just have to just let longer traverse. The idea
it's in our way idea lot. I must tell you that thing, as I said, is gonna have conversations I'm really struggling in this moment. Most
inside of the black community. I am struggling with the rejection of the movement, hasn't it and an end people seeing it as an attack specifically on black man. It's a growing narrative that is really getting dangerous, an ominous its dishonest, but has also just really dangerous. We already have a very small amount of real estate
on which to build this movement inside our communities of color and sell when narratives like that pop up, they take up so much more real estate that we need, and that thing you said, is a thing that I try to drive home all the time about our ability to hold to shoot. At the same time,.
On more than one true. So for people listening that don't know I mean you know our friends
Oh your work, I know about the tension and the attack
the meat to movement within communities of color. Can you help people talk about why
that you see the narrative on Twitter and it's just it's so not factual and it so easy to just check it yeah
it's really a narrative. While there is growing-
It is growing narrative, tat. Black men are the target.
The meat movement which has been started inside. You know a distant small groups of pockets of people on social media, mostly and its based on the fact that its it's complicated and not complicated its contents, the baseline
like our Kelly, when the hour Kelly Documentary came out on lifetime it
in over three days, it was really sensational and it was huge and it
it over and over again, and I got a lot of attention and for the first time we had people outside of our community. Talking about this thing, we ve been talking about inside of our community for twenty years
got a kind Kelly, the museum musician right who multiple he multiple charges of sexual.
Island sexual assault, sexual misconduct, everything you can name who has been targeting I'm teenage black teenage girls for years in his community, I mean from middle school right girls as young as thirteen for years and years and years, and black women mostly have been railing against him as an artist
as a person is a perpetrator, a predator for years and to no avail. His music is still play here
was Torreon. He was still vary widely popular and accepted, even like Lady Gaga Data, showing him did a storm with having performed with Hammett at some people watch out in the last decade, right
has been really hurtful for a lot of black women that we could not get attention around this person
and then the Harvey wisely in case happens right in all of a sudden. The whole world stops because we had these different, looking survivors who had these. You know rich white, wealthy glamorous famous women who came forward, who again
see as survivors far strike. I'm not. This is not about them in them coming forward their survivors and they deserve to have that space to come forward and tell their true, but I think what it brought up for a lot of people in a black community as well for black women for sure, is that why is it that we can't get the same attention? We ve been talking about a predator in our community in a similar way, well,
All the sun and when we do get that attention ass, you know those people who followed a movement know that the most popular
Celebrity cases have mostly been white man. You know I've been in a wine
Matt LAO and Charlie rolled and Louis Decay and
on and on and on right, ilities deities cases of white men even prior to wines day we had built Cosby but then
docile Roger Elles and and the other guy from Fox NEWS Right Felt is but too in this did his pockets of black people who are antis that, while Bill Cosby went to jail and now our Kelly's been arrested because he was arrested and indicted for multiple charges after the documentary air, why? On any white men going to jail
it's like it's not versatile is not that simple, but, secondly, we Harvey Wednesday
It took a while, but he was definitely array
did Charles indict whenever blah blah blah anyway
does narrative of like why do we keep talking about black men has been growing in grown and growing.
And some of it comes from a very real history that we have in America, of black men being falsely accused of sexual violence,
right that's a very rummy from Emmett tilted through the Central Park Java case we
seven rain black men historically in this country b, falsely accused or sexual violence, be weapon eyes against them, and so that's a harmful and heart full part of our history that you just canneries
that is just is what it is. It's real and today we have it, but that we have not owned that we have,
People have not all that we don't talk about their rights, but in our community we know it re right. So for many people, when a black man is accused of sexual violence, we have it gives us pause first, like lightweight who's, the victim, what happened
all the things that we do. We do not encourage people to do when folks come forward, have become standard.
In the black community, because we see
It so many times we stand a false accusation, so I get where the the immediate, like the distrust comes from. I understand that very clearly so that a truth ride, but here's another truth that also doesn't get held up, and if we don't talk about the black women have the second.
Highest rate of sexual violence in this country. We are that we are either we have the second highest right, yeah sexual violence in his country, behind indigenous women. That is a very real thing.
And so that is another truth. And yet a third truth is in every single community. Every community does not
special depravity in the black community. There is nothing that makes our men, you know have approach.
Fiction toward sexual that nothing like that, but in every single community crimes are committed against the people who are in close proximity. So that means that white people tend to kill murder, rape
other white people, asian people, asian people, that makes people annex people and black people other black people right. That's why we rail against this idea of black on black crime, because people commit crimes against the people who live close to them. We tend to live in pockets together,
but again, if we know that that is also true. Now we have three troops if we hold all little shoot and we have to understand both the sensitivity around calling out black man around sexual violence,
and black women need to be seen as survivors of sexual violence many times at the hands of black men
Not always right, we have heads, we sit down, you holds claw and other book.
Eyes: Al Qaeda we ve seen major cases are robbed of of white men who have met. You know me,
Who are not black, who actually committed crimes against black women?
but by and large, just like every other community. That's our reality, so
If we only hold the one reality of the history of black men, be an falsely accused and we operate from that place in this moment. What happens to the to the masses of black women who have experienced sexual violence? We get away
again we want to we weren't. Seen me too went viral right. That was mostly not
of color at all who were put on the forefront if we acknowledge that. That's true so that you have white women cover
If we only deal with the history of black men been falsely, accused and come to their defence every single time a black man is, is accuse and dont and don't want to hear anything else. Where does that leave black women and that's all I've been saying that my work has always centred black women and girls? For that reason, because somebody has to speak up for us, somebody has to say that we matter somebody has to prioritize our pain, and my hope would be that the entire community could embraced that and say
These individuals, hoping are our colleagues, are the bill cause these who have been called out minded. They haven't been a ton of black
nobody men who have
not to say they don't exist, but they haven't been called out and pointed out as perpetrators in this moment. A lot of that is because black women do not want to be held responsible for being the one to call out these blue.
And in the last few months we ve seen repercussions of that right. Over went free, gale, King Data, Pink Smith, Gmail Hill, myself, other black women who stand up and say anything, not accusatory, not, but anything that looks like we are trying to hold a black man accountable for behaviour. Aim at black men like our Kelly. There is this backlashes vitriolic says you hate black man as appalled to say you know what these particular black men do not represent black man
Our Kelly is not indicative of the black mass in my life, who are who raised me who love me who have been, who have been surrounded by for most mala he's, Madame
if that is, so we want to make sure the world knows that when somebody is Panama, our community, we want them held accountable, that's not! The now has that is taken, shape, pray.
So going all the way back to what she was saying before about the need to separate ourselves from the things that we fear. I think that is so much of what we are seeing is rooted in that if we have to start looking at and internally and say, we have to address the rate of sexual violence, that is happening also, not just the women and girls right in our community period. But
guys black men also survivors. That's right. We have to like every other community should do it, and I get Oliver
I mean all of us collectively, but then also because it or cultural differences we have to take a step back in our various cultures and ethnicities and talk about and think about. The way it affects our groups of people is very important that we
HU there, and if our response to that is, why are we saw them a black man? Why do you hate black men might come on ya? This response is coming from fear and shame and a lack of of of ability to pay
We are vulnerable really right, I'm no vulnerability is hard for us. We cannot afford on ability, but we
we need a modicum of it in this moment, all of us and compassion to say like this
it's the truth. This is just a truth and we have to do is sit with this truth and, unlike on packet and figure it out and come up with some solutions, we have the ability,
And I was really long, but it is a thought, a complicated and new eyes. I just want to be clear that I got through the whole thing. I think it's complicated and nuanced and I think
That's why I want to have these conversations with people like you, because when we lose our capacity for complicated and nuanced, I think we lose our capacity for change and I guess what I am struck by Tron as you're talking is that how complete oppression is as a tool that in white supremacy.
It's, not just what you see it's the ramifications are so bone piercing. You know this idea that
It's you know seen another communities, we see it Lino with women who
hold other women accountable, and how could you ever do
you're setting us all back or you know it's oppression, just every door. You try to open. It has already said.
Trapped there they fail to honour blame. I absolutely I I was so struck with by, of course, you know it. Of course you know what I'm talking about, because you built this work.
Yes, it's just, I sometimes think, and I'm thinking on my feet right now. I don't know
gonna make sense, but
She almost seems to be completely predicated on not being able to hold multiple truths at one time
and assigning rank to truth, so that what's what-
totter. Smaller truths get crushed in the process in Genoa, like.
It almost seems like the greatest weapon against oppression. White supremacy is critical. Nuance thinking right because it does put, it is breaking the to solve. I am oppressing you through Raven than I have created. This lie that I am a supreme being right and this is the highest true. It is absolute and all consuming that this is true and I have to proliferate.
everything that you believe everything everything you see everything you here with that truth in all this is that they are saying about grounding of girls in the sense of self worth, because that's up tool to fight back that lie. It's a tool against that lie and we have to like live our lives and build a literal arsenal to fight the lies that are created and put out in the world.
Ash truth. You started the me to move met at fourteen years ago, yeah. What is it? What is yeah good reason?
that's a good bye bye.
really looking at young.
Girls in this community that you were
entering in teaching and
modeling how to reclaim their own self worth in value. You looked at them and said me to its becoming
hush now in white?
has been centred on it a little. Would you agree the earlier the thing that I think about you when I think about me too, and the history, and just my friendship with you
is. Would you say it's true or not true, that the meat you movement, that you created.
Is a movement that is survivor. Empathy and love focused, absolutely one hand. Our art are tagline was empowerment of empathy
oh really yeah. That's the
tagline. For me for me to one or two everything: it's it's empowerment, empathy, because what struck me about using- and I actually can't me before- I didn't use the word me too, when I was trying to figure out
What was the thing that worked most for me and my like healing journey when I started trying to figure out how to feel better about myself, and it was the moments that I had deep sympathy with other people
I had this United have language. I didn't. Have we weren't survivor,
healing that that is. I didn't have that language, even in my own journey.
And I remember meeting with this group of Women- California is activists, bad ass, radical women who we were doing a digital storytelling project and just kind of hanging out after
and somehow another turn to survival of by talking about sexual violence and one
and I felt brave
That moment, even just saying something about being a victim rank, as I just didn't even talk about
I was on a journey, but it was very personal and
one of the women style? Never forget this indian woman. She stopped and she turned to me and she said no, no, no! No! No! No! We don't use that language. You are not a victim. You are.
Survival and although we used widely now it was not widely used, then a cutting edge there, oh yeah, and it just blew it was you know. Those moments like I was like, oh my god, just
what it made me feel like was it feel so much better to feel like? I have overcome something ravenous up come to dinner. Like all this thing didn't kill me. I'm still here,
I survived, and so I took nuggets and these women allow me they just saw me in old. We
talked about a lot of what I do in our healing workshops comes from that experience because we didn't talk, tell our stories we didn't
in around talking about like all these gory details, we talked about things like being afraid of the dark hole right. We talked about like what our sex lives were like pulse these things, and I thought I feel scene, I have a group of people who did
the empathize with my life as a survivor, and I needed that I needed to feel like I wasn't dislike, we all survive, Sus of apples very isolating the violence is isolating, so
even if you see the numbers and data- and you know it's were awaiting intellectually, you know is widespread. It feels it immediately feels like somebody is other in you and putting you in a corner.
And a lot of times. I knew I loved you. I was. I love your exclamation of like the difference between empathy and sympathy, and I use it
and one or two other things I tell people to? Is that for survivors sympathies sometimes can feel like other ring, so people will say to you. Oh I'm so side. It happened to you and now
that little piece right there that happened to you feels like an alright I'm going to see what my arms up like putting arms distance, because it's it's a separation between you over there that that thing happened to and me over here.
And I know people mean well obviously when they, when they do, that, they're trying to be there for you and support you. But it's such a different experience and somebody saying gosh that happened to me too,
Right and the minute you have that, how I people sometimes is that you have created community even if it's just for five minutes.
And then how forwards empty their powerful, whereas we now there's a thing I know about you and that I understand fundamentally about your life in just saying those words in this moment that so many of the people don't get, and that is what empathy between survivors can feel like a lion like from me meeting
originally was about empathy between survivors. Like I see you and I see you to her yet as a year. Definitely I was about love and empathy and healing and end the power that is created that in parliament was about. The power is created between two people, Wendy
Is that exchange of empathy? How do we? I am a firm believer in I get this question a lot. I believe empathy is possible between two people who have not had it
fact sharing experience but who are willing to hold people
stories up as truth and listen and learn. Do you believe that absolutely I get that question allowed to let what if I'm not a survivor, cannot empathize and the reality is we ve all fell paying most of us have experienced trauma. Most of us have experienced laws right. These are the things the things that people carry the residue that the trauma leaves is very similar to a lot of different things, and so you know you can pull from that plays in
say like I get this if you can get past. This is why I try to get away from the detail, sometimes because, if you can get away from the details to what it is that it left with, you, then, is a better chance of people connecting to that right. Cause you don't have
I ask people all the time when we were talking about empathy and I sent you know razor
and if you know, rage, powerlessness pain, trauma,
You know a lot of us have had the experiences that we need to share genuine empathy.
Not all of us- are willing to tap into them to make that connection rights, and so what I think is imposed
more is to both self protection, insulate
And see and hear other people at the same time. Oh yes, M it emits literally impossible, is literally ample.
About you. Want people won't go there. I mean less at a great way to to active approach that act. People left us,
Similarly, why I tell people like there are things that I
holding dynamics to experience had had it. You have to have literally nothing do could beat it a lot of your mom in our like right that brought you to this place, but at the end of the day,
Is even with other survivors, there are so many survivors who I get this. I get this message all the time or this question certain such happened to me, but it wasn't that bad
I heard of Suffering- is what we call it. What do they call comparative suffering honest? Exactly? That's it exactly this. Thank you, I'm always look
Nothing can never that not enough in its high. Let's rank it occurs,.
I am ashamed to take too much
the trauma and empathy space for my stories. I know there are worse stories with just the most,
numerous narrative of all. It is
and almost at this, is where tell people when I get that negative mulatto young girls not going to college campuses- and I say
what matters is what it left you with that of the saying that
Ben and it sometimes to be you know, like you, were not sexually assaulted. You were harassed. The thing that it left you with is what matters is what you'd like? I don't the details, don't matter, I mean they matter to you personally but like in terms of
What it did you could they are also people who have had very similar experiences, who walk away feeling completely different. That's right
I've met survivors who have licks when they say
the thing about big span for my gear that that was not confront
you're talking like that was this was be date. Rape or this would be whenever energy
Ok, they didn't take it. I waited internalize thy way. I don't want to give it to them. I don't wanna Adam
the media create that thing for them as you walked away, and you didn't leave you with a thing, then I'm grateful that you don't have to hold that burden, but a very similar experience could happen to another person in a ruined, and it just takes some time
and makes them feel just awful and they are left with this pain and or rage or shame, or like all of these things, and it's ok
like you have the right to acknowledge what you feel you have the ranking of the comparative anybody else. It's yours
Christine, because when we study empathy, what we found is that the willingness to see and hear people and be with them in their pain, you know, is the big piece of empathy and that sometimes people who had the impact,
failure happens for two equal reasons, one you and
holiday, minimize or are maximize? And
Sperience you're, not with some one where they are or equally you ve had the exactly
experience, and you a tribute all of your you're in what you would call what you were left with,
to them. So it is a good new script for empathy. It's like a my willing to be with you here you and believe you like an that's hard
yeah. I want to read something that you tweet it and then I want to read what responses were you
a tweet after the wines dean verdict that sad for the record, I'm clear that this verdict and sentencing squarely do the survivors who stepped in
out of the shadows and bravely told their stories, and I am here to support them in response.
someone wrote. I know that I'm young and still in the process of becoming
but as a historian and training, I'm gonna make sure the history books have your name on their pages. You have given a face to the brown black bayesian pink bodies
only survive but he'll and thrive. Thank you
another response. Another response, not Toronto, Burke, deserves all the power.
in recognition the world. You can't build anything without a strong foundation. Hashtag me too
who is that foundation and Toronto. Burke, you built it another response
Thank you. Many women today got some justice because of you at Tirana. Burke, you gave these women the help and support they needed to speak out. Hashtag me, too, is the foundation. None of this would have happened without you.
It's simply responses accept. As Sweden is concerned, the computer- and I get
but I hope you know that- and I think you know
there is rage and I think rage and anger are important and they can be catalyst for
change, and I don't know, there's been ever really
ass of change without some of them. I think they're really
hard ways to live in too high a price to pay that live with those. But you have built a movement that.
Is so based in love and empathy and so survivor centred that I I
hope. It becomes the model that people used to build other great movements that tackle the shit that were up again today in the
called the yes indeed, would now be nice as they weren't you and you did it
and- and I know that that's hard fuchs I've read a lot of your. I read you and listen to you all the time, and I know that you hate you always
Think of movement- and me too, is bigger than you or anyone else,
no one should be centred on the work, but the survivors, but I just
have to say to you that I think it's important for people to understand who you are.
Are your intention behind the movement and the work you tirelessly due to keep. We centering right people at a mean. I appreciate that I I do it is hard, sometimes because up enough, I know a very much feel like this. This current integration of me to what we are in now was built on the backs of survivors, and you know these folks who courageously came out and did not know what to expect did not know was gonna
and did not know how is gonna help or not help and posted in tweeted in hashtag me to all over the place pot of us. You know that big as when people like accuse me of courage, if my girlfriend says in a poem
people like you're so courageous and you're, so heroic and and- and I'm like, I feel, really dutiful part of what coming up with this idea and it's the movement around me to make me feel like when it went. Viral was like, oh god, when I thought I'd, never get my arms around it, and then I thought I have to get in it like it's certain myself in some way to try to at least keep it grounded on these people like if we can't have as much courage.
List of the people who had the courage to say me too. Then we don't deserve to be. You don't deserve to be a leader. You don't deserve to call yourself anything related to to shake your movements. So I feel, like my job to the last two and a half years has been try.
So like some positive elements of a well, let's try to keep shaping and shaping in moulding shaping in and directing people.
Away from this deliciousness than the headlines in all the stuff that will
Will you away from these people who bent over backwards to make sure that we see them and we hear them and we have to keep seeing about and I feel like a lot of ways we haven't given him anything in return for that courage. So as much as I can such I like answer that that feels like the Paul, like that's the work. Gotta keep remembering these people, s largest, keep brain about them because if they aren't centred, then we just get lost in you know, verdicts and headlines
and whose MAX the Nordic Council by here you. I hear you loud and clear. Thank you, the appreciated. Let me ask you a question, and this is where I can get really pummelled online and I just feel so sure my answer, but I I I trust you on a sucker.
Can we use shame as a social
justice tool as a tool. We. What do you mean better, so I always believed
I'm thinking about the Otter LAW, Lord quote that their master tools will not decide on the masters and
idea that we can use empathy
count ability and just.
Social justice tools, but I dont know that we can use shame belittling and humiliation. Alas, alas o Campbell
declared that it sounds like where you go where you
I would put a bride turned out like things this is just one is doesn't like, say more
Really I was like, while she's gone into the same or like a guy. I know you ought to know when you're, like a
help me understand what you're, like that's Toronto, bark for bullshit like no absolutely now actually makes me feel.
You know? I get it people alike in this moment it is easy to slip into what we see in greater into the same place and
and in a lot of ways fighting fire with fire feels good because it fails to ride like I'm
getting you the way you got me, but we end up in the same exact in the same exact plays an address if we are not aiming to be better like sometimes you just slip, sometimes you just
Oh yeah, something gets the best deal ever, but at least now your pain right, so knowledge that this wasn't. This is not the best way to operate a just did this, because it is obvious in pain or what
but now shame is definitely not a social justice tool is just it needs to be relegated to wear so the same place. All the time- and I feel I can we stop permanent tools like that and use them as an excuse to fight for justice like there's no place for it, and we will end up in the same as that places. It actually speaks a kind of the thing I was saying about the issues we're having internally in the black community, in that some of this is about people not wanting justice,
but wanting to have the same privileges as the oppressor, and so they use the same tools as the oppressor internally in our community, and it's just not affected we're going to we're going to end up in the same places. So, no, no! No, no, absolutely not
its helpful? For me, I just think especially, I think about sexual harassment, sexual song, violence, all violence where
humiliation belittling. Shame are the two
rules of silence. Oh yeah. We
see now the jobs on Wednesday will offer people. Well, that's happened by him: Gettin raped in jail,
Are you gonna, like does not helpful? It's just not helpful, is not useful and and really what people who do that don't understand is that they are not allies for the movement, because that is contributing to rape, culture and rape. Culture creates the space for violence, so we need to dismantle the culture that creates the space for violence if we're gonna, if without ever see an end or an interruption of sexual vial,
and so it is not it doesnt they. I think they think that they are making us feel better or maybe to making them selves feel better there. Just but you're not is a disruption of the of the movement and its it's really moving backwards. Now, flower.
Don't become the thing we fear I mean come on, didn't beneath it.
Hu. Thank you for giving me a chance to explain myself with your
me more hey. You listen right now, you, if you saw had a conversation who better work and she takes a deep breath and after like say a short prayer and says, tell me more better, get your shit together because we stopped and I was born. I was like wait. We don't know you go with this, but I want to live
It turned very fast questions. You ready to take a simple one right lightning here we go lightning
vulnerability, filling the blank. For me. Vulnerability is hard work,
I want to be brave, but you're in some real fear. What's the first thing you do pray, something
People often get wrong about you and I'm not funny
really yourself funny people become so serious. Unlike no do you
you don T know what you are. You are duellist ticket bear you're funny and your Syria arrived at last. She
oh you bend and loved. Among us, this is so typical
but unbelievable Netflix. It's about sexual violence. I now, but it's so good. Ok, favorite movie, color purple.
A concert you'll, never forget the review
inter of puffy
and bad boys reunions or a couple years ago, one of the best kind of them into favorite meal.
Quickly quickly, female theory,
what's the best which runs in called me: ok
on your nightstand right now junk.
My Ipad, my earrings the box for my ring, because I'm kind of obsessed
and like mad moving it not with the ring crystals Al Qaeda junk. Ok,.
A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life. That brings you great joy to one fleeting moment.
Laying on the couch covered up under this big fluffy blank
what my love and watching tv and last, what's one thing that your deeply grateful for right now for you, I'm still grateful.
You. I really am I'm not just saying that, but I just can't even expressed- and I think people who knew me before I knew you could tell you, I'm so grateful for you and this work that feels like a validated. You know. Sometimes you have things in your head in.
They feel like they make sense, and then, when I found you, you made the things in my head makes sense and made me feel not like just as crazy
and who was like, but shame and upper and fear, and you you had science and you had data and you'd still be made. It look, no clear and plain for everyday people's. I'm like forever always grateful for you.
I'm forever always grateful for you. Toronto. Thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
next time I see you in person I'll give you the biggest
kiss you've ever ways
Transcript generated on 2020-10-02.