Academy Award-winning documentarian Alex Gibney is always trying to understand why things are the way they are. He’s done so with Enron, Scientology, the War on Terror, Donald Trump and other topics where he often finds people believing that the ends justify the means. That’s true of his new documentary Citizen K about Russian oligarchs and Vladimir Putin. Alex also talks with Marc about his path to becoming a filmmaker and how the Blues opened him up to the possibilities of the documentary medium. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace and SimpliSafe.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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all right? Let's do this, how are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the fuck and ears what's happening, a mark mare- and this is my podcast W Tia. Welcome too it has everybody. Has everybody heading into the holiday season. My guest today is Alex Gibbon. It he's a documentary, film maker and I'm sure you ve seen some of this stuff like
He did the Enron, the smartest guys in the room. He did going clear Scientology in the prison of belief. He did that. We still secrets the story of Wikileaks. He did the inventor out for blood in Silicon Valley and he's got a new one. It's called citizen K and it's it's it's really about Russia about Russia. You know at the time were they opened up to experiment with the free market, capitalism and then it shut back down with Putin and it sort of moves through the arc of that. If of of of happened in your Putin's rise in and where the oligarchy come from theirs. What you're we read constantly about about Russia, and yet we hear about Russia, but the structurally I'd I dont know historically what happened or how it worked or what the oligarchy through
are and were in where they came from and how that happened and what happened to the sort of brief experience with capitalism in Russia and how that broke. The thing down and answered have left a vacuum. Were Putin could come in its and it's all done through the story of this oligarchy, Mikhail Cortical and ass. You know it's really, it's it stop. You dont know any deepens your understanding of both America. Both Russia and the dynamic setter sort of in play, as we speak, As I talk right now, given that this is a day before you, I imagined by today, the President of the United States will have been impeached by the House of reference. Lives deservedly so and and the kind of fight over that the framing of that spin on that were sort of further dictate or or add
aim to the fire of whether you can we turn into a functioning sort of authoritarian country, with the facade of democracy or or I'm form of democracy in the peoples will will persevere really. We are really on the beach with this stuff, and I know what you saw you I come on man. It's here, just relax, The elections way whatever man, whatever you, can read your tea, waves, I'll, read mine, it's weird and upon the sixteen for this hotel and there is actually the leaves floating in the air right. My window just I've, seen two or three them out enough. It's a wind coming up the building, but it's weird how pieces of garbage your weaves or little light things just take flight. I dunno sinks, spontaneous I'm not reading anything into it, just sort of interesting how things will just float? Sometimes so, what's let's lean into this somehow
it's some. You know when I talk about my life and I talk to you guys about it. It's really all I got you, I'm not dead, commenting on things that happen. Necessarily in the world or in the news, and I'm very I'm very happy that so many people able to relate and connect to my reflection about my cat passing a guy an amazing amount of emails of support and people sharing their stories- and I sat here in my how room and wept with with some of the other story in just the really help me kind of help me as I may have helped you d processor revisit you are very real sort of grief and loss, but but that that the depth of that feeling for anybody, no matter what it's about is is a profoundly human thing. A profound,
the human space a profoundly human feeling- and I would imagine that most of us in if you are relatively sensitive to what's happening in the world or or your kind of engaged. With it either are in a kind of mild, chronic state of PTSD or at the very least, a sort of chronic state of of of sadness and fear an anxiety, so I feel that when when something can provoke a certain amount of release of that grief or or that sadness or the sadness in general, if it has any context, that is something that
finite like saving the death of of an animal or revisiting the sort of memories of a loved one that has passed that the experience of at least releasing some of that grief and experiencing some of those feelings has got to be profound and an cathartic, because I'm sure that for a lot of us it it sort of taps into the kind of the type of Greek and sadness and anxiety that, and we really can tap into on a day to day basis, because there is no led to it. There is no,
contacts to it it's on going in and the fear of just sort of kind of her basically emotionally using your mind, is always possible. So those moments where we can feel the grief in a context wise way that is finite and already has closure is, is is good for the heart because it's almost impossible to live in the grief of current existence for a lot of us, and I am glad that there is still connects to so many of you. So let's talk to its to talk to we're not talking to anybody. I would like to talk about my dates. I do have two dates. Coming up, the freezing. My ass part of the there hey, there's more tour Ivan screwing up a couple of days, so let me just go through it on Thursday January thirty. If they will be in Cleveland Ohio at the Gore Theatre on Friday January thirty first, I will be Grand Rapids Michigan at the Fountain Street church on SAT,
a February first I'll, be in Milwaukee Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom Friday February Fourteenth Albion, Orlando Florida at Hard Rock live Saturday February, fifteenth of being camp, a flawed at the stress centre, Thursday February Twentieth, Portland, main state theatre, Friday February, twenty first improvidence, Rhode, island at the Columbus Theatre, Saturday February, twenty second, in New Haven, Connecticut at the College Street Musical and Sunday February, twenty third in hunting to New York at the Paramount didn't go to beauty of pod dotcom, Swash tour for links to all the venues. Now I gotta lotta emails. As I said in response to what I was going through with the pudding my cat down, but one came before that that was sort of a poem in in though he spelled my name wrong. It's I'm gonna! Let it go because I liked where went on a spiritual, mystical
have all poetic level. The subject line, cats and gods dear Mark here are my best wishes to you in the choice you must make in how to best alleviate your feline friends, discomfort, rigour, it was of your decision, the lifeless fond of which has been made a measure but we'd better by your presence by design, it seems these struggles with mortality lead us direct, to wrestle with our individual understandings of God, which, if we trace it, goes back ages to the ancient Egyptians whose history I understand can be a soft spot for some. Yet still, it should be stated that they did do us all a service by domesticating cats. Or were they themselves domesticated under the watchful eye of refund his ancestors? Having said that, though,. On your own ancestors shoulders, Mark Thou and even heavier burden that domestication of society, helping people reach into a realm of the self reflected back to us
out of that unwavering stare of the unknowable vessel that we refer to as the cat. If what made lines into cats, wolves into dogs and artists out of apes is God, then I dont know what is what, ever way? You look at it if you can be there with her when she passes on or the roller coaster comes to a halt, while she around other loving humans, remembering that Le Fonda was there at the beginning and played a part in all of this should hopefully ease the pain. The first time I listened to w e f. You read the old hebrew prose. If I'm for myself, who will be, if I am only for myself, what am I and, if not now when,
trying comedy over these recent years is felt to me like learning, to fly, here's to the nine lives we live. Thank you for all. You do boomer lives. Thank you, Patrick. That was pretty stunning. I liked it, and you know it is food for thought. My friend I don't know work where God goes. I do know there's a week floating upward outside my window. That's probably just wind, but there are moments you know in the crisp fall whether it was kind of culture, but it's kind of clear here and it went which had I'm still here in Atlanta time, is running out on simply saves huge holiday offer folks it's their biggest cell of the year if you're looking to fully protect her home with award winning twenty four seven homes. Security. Now is the time to do it. Burglary spike during the holiday season, with families travelling and weaving empty homes and expensive gives behind this holiday offer
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so I've been just sit around man. I'll tell ya, you go it's not really a stir crazy thing, but because the nature of my work right now. It's really I'm just waiting and studying my lines in thinking about things in freaking out about other things and trying to maintain a decent died, trying to get a little exercise trying to get out into the city to experience a little bit catching up with some guy couple of friends here, but the process of being on the road with nothing to do. Yeah yeah, it's a challenge, but as part of gig man and I've got now. I went down to the vortex down to the laughing Skull and did a few How sets Donna Rawlins was in town talk to him a Betty's. He was at the club, dimension the the birthday cake fiasco? I mean Jesus man, so
first I go to set. You know, they're all fuckin day in their shooting a scene of kids Birthday Party and they got two beautiful, like oats its period peace, so that their got these old fashioned birthday. Cakes, namely, used like a few slices, others two and a half of these chocolate birthday, cakes just at the craft services table that they didn't use, just beautiful old, tiny, moist, chocolate cake with, the white icing and you don't know what the fuck happened. The first couple of days I was here man, rag thing was coming out of losing the Fonda eating cookies and I swear to God, I think I do have one of those cakes and it just didn't stop put together night man, so I'm going through all this shit emotionally. Yeah I'm away from home now ago, disproportion we worried about my other cats, so I guess to watch marriage story, my god yeah? Whatever you know, it's a trick
all that divorce. She had where it where's the trigger warning on that ship, that it's gonna, reopen the horrendous anger and hurt of anybody. Through that process are even have kids in my divorce was one of the most dramatic fucked up times in my life and boy Brett brought all that shit right back, but that feeling of wanting to go into something. You know it in good faith, and lawyers are hired in it turns into a just a destructive clusterfuck I definitely related to, but so to recover, add I decided on some urgings from people who? Am I talk with J Roach to wash Chernobyl? So I burn through that I've been Chernobyl, so that's using a radiation, poison and govern. I thought you were coming up and lies just that was levelling. So, needless to say, waking up this morning. We'll grim,
happy wasn't raining, but ok, so I'd better. Some of you out there who have waited all year to get that new project off the ground right, we'll, don't wait any law turn your dream into a reality. Would square space you can easily make beautiful website, for whatever it is you're looking to do starting new business showcase, your artwork cell. Pottery, launch a podcast scores space makes it easy, with beautiful templates created by world class designers and the ability to customize just about anything with few click so, whatever you want to sell using square spaces, commerce tools used these square space analytics to keep track of your growth and take advantage of square spaces. Twenty four seven award winning customer support your site will look great on mobile devices. When ever need to do a software update and you can buy domains in a snap square space empowers millions of people to turn great ideas into something real. So what are you waiting for? Had discourse based outcomes, waste
a beauty up for a free trial and when you are ready to launch used the offer code, w e f to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain that squares based dot com, Swash, W T up offer code, w e F, so Alex Givney is he's pretty engaged in and great documentary film maker. I I've been a member talking to him years ago and I was in America and in our kind of reconnecting with him about his latest documentary called citizen Kay it's now playing in LOS Angeles and more open and other cities in the new year, you can go to Citizen Kane, film, dot, com for more info, and this is me and give me back at the house. He had put a cat down no
they kept getting one over. How really yeah that our problem there was just a blood spluttered all over. My gather. Here we got coyote, so I remember I used to live in Glinda. You did up an amount, close area. Oh yeah When I remember one mean we visit MRS somewhere, we sat guinea pigs, we had a little shared in the backyard and there was this huge racket and I were out there in my boxers sooner. What the hell's Goin on here near these three coyotes, desperately trying to get into the thing a guinea pigs yeah at the guinea pigs and they shot pass me and they are always be to the detriment of care who had been ripped apart, ah ask as up its high up there. I year so you'd see alive when they bring em right values. Anthea s terrible. He I think I lost one. Do a county I'd I'd I'd like to think he just when found
Someone he'd rather live with right, but I Well, let's, let's hope, that's true. He I think that in reality, I've cadets them that's the belief system. I put it place good around that cat you're. Welcome to it so I I watch the new movie. You have seen many the movies, the new movie and I gotta be out with you. I knew nothing about the structure of contemporary Russia and I guess it's sort of a lot of people. Don't I mean a lot of connivance? Why did the movie? I didn't know that much about it either you I didn't know what the I know what oligarchy jar, but I know what it meant necessarily right, right the relationship was what created it right and so that was your impetus.
Yeah. I'm gonna learn about this slow after two thousand. Sixteen something happened I thought. Well. Maybe we should put a little bit more about Russia, yet we will learn a little bit more about the new boss is now that we have a president that seem to be a functioning oligarchy. Yes, that's right of the of the Russian a review of the Putin School. Oh, I'm not sure that his ease taking orders, but I think they they they subscribe to the same school. What I mean That's interesting, though, because you knives, I'm the movie, the Enron move. You made this modest guy in the room. You do the scientific, She film- and you know you furtive- can penetrate These are these Nor are they, I guess there. Systems are structures or belief systems and their bureaucracy built on, lies right. What are you think is going on what in the whole Russia. Storing I mean just with that with just that, and then this is like off. There's an opinion thing here. Let me what do you think Trump is really in relation. This easy is self centered self serving business man that just once
his hands on that russian money. Well, he's a self centered self serving business man right. That's what he's all about life and and, of course, he's a narcissist which makes them a perfect politician. But I think of you see everything the tree is done within that sense of self hundred Nelson. This idea that it's just all about him yeah. It makes a lot more sense, an email because I think that was one of the interesting things about the the rush. Story in that way to visit the Putin Sis is how you rig cap was an and the government for your own benefit? I get well that that the story of what did encoder Kuski yeah yeah Attica, Why do you see that on one level, but you would have thankfully, on some in and also and the not so much is that there is a willingness for Americans to be who played without you without having to take people out, kill him right,
there just seems to be like this sort of infrastructure of distraction and an consumerism. Yes that day, you know it a lot easier to dupe Americans yeah do. I think the body count is higher than we think, but it's not done the same. With a wacko. You know in the middle of the night by some agent. It's on through negligently, ass or or or or this the the pursuit of profit like the opium crime. Let's not call it a crisis right right, right boy, which kind of greeds back to the malignant sea of consumerism. Monsanto have rightly need and desire, and exploitation by mean. It seems to me, can I can't keep wrap my brain around into ye see this like a movie like yours and also get the information that I get is out there used to be just billion dollars in Russia that there's a lot people around the world will end in business people in America that want it. I mean I think that you know there's a lot of money everywhere, it's not just in Russia, and I think that the
moral of the story. Here is what happens when you become so rapacious about wanting to get that money. Wherever it is. Then everything else pails in comparison, you don't care about any soil Trump was attracted to run, for, while because he thought he was going to get his name and a big tromp tower and make me a couple. Hundred million thou be as an end, in light of he might Verde, maybe by the way the price went up as soon as he became a candidate for President one way up, because suddenly the name for a long time. The name didn't mean that much in Russia. We thought that what was fascinating about the movie about that I can in what I learned was, as you know, during Gorbachev and then onward into what was Yeltsin yells that you were, they tried to experiment with something some rudimentary democracy and and capitalism essentially of freeing the market up. A bit is just that look like him. What
you know this smarter, more sort of thumb, ambitious and and a kind of Ruth was business. People were able to deal with small opening of capitalism to literally take over the country. Yes, and- and I think I think what you see in it's kind of an interesting. Who is one of the reasons I think it's Look at you see pure free market, Capitalism with bio rules looks like looks like guys who looks like Al Capone Chicago, that's right, but it's like it comes down to write these twenty seven guy ended up controlling fifty percent of the russian economy by the end of the nineties, right in that and those with the original oligarchy. That's right, and then I guess once it started at once. Capitalism did what it does to do this. The bottom line into people's ability to survive or or living diminished rights of the class. The disorder crashed, the lower class became completely impoverished
the problem. Was you? system before that, the communist right, where everybody was sort of equally poor right but taken care of, what would happen rarer rats ride, you you didn't have to worry about starving, will. Suddenly I worry about starving and we literally stark, as there is no safety blanket, it was no safety net and- and so, but you had, opportunity make a lot of money because there were no real rules So the people who knew how to play the game- and it was kind of it a game with no rules or where you could buy the rhapsode a moment's notice. They became fat, the illicitly wealthy and then a lot of other people, you know were were starving. So you percent of the entire. Through I or the narrative on on Macao that I said Michael Micaiah, hot coffee Kurkowski, who an oil magnet oil Alex became that he he started by selling black market Blue jeans and computers,
and he worked his way up to her owning a bank and then there's this very crooked moment in Russia, where Yeltsin wants to get reelected. Ninety, ninety six and but he's got no money. His approval? Raining was about three percent wages and pensions weren't being paid, so we made this unholy deal, there was called loans for shares where he basically got milk. Billions of dollars from the oligarchy in exchange, for giving them shares in Russia's biggest public companies, and so you know the oligarchs cannot divide the russian economy amongst themselves, couple of them tv networks, ATA Caskey, gets a huge oil company called you COS. And they come out after the election in Yeltsin winds, he comes roaring back. He wins but a the oligarchs come out only fifty percent of the russian economy right, seven, that's right now. What would I
What sort of like I need it to get an explanation of. It seems to me that will end up. I do about Putin, was you sort of a loser. He was a boy the crowd of petty bureaucrats, but he was one of those guys when those go. Two guys want to get a little something done here. You call lad and I got him realise, like you, you know you get this mythology about and that he was this demonic KGB operative. Better look! You look like a lackey. He was kind of a lackey. I mean he ino. If you go back to the kind of ass. He did. He did fix it stuff, but it was kind of- behind the scenes fix it stuff thousand. He wasn't James bond stuff here become James Bond until he became present and then use the power of television. That sort of create this image of him. This kind of larger than life figure by also thought what is interesting is that it really illustrates they were, but that he had a similar kind of disposition as tromp in that year, Tromp was, is kind of like
you seem a a loser in a way I mean no matter how much Trump like presents himself the winner. As a core to him that sort of a sharper- and it's my poor certainly early on when he was that we work for that Governor AEGIS, like one, those geysers like some day I'll show you. Rat, guy, yellow difference between them was tromp was always kind of a self promoter. I mean he was the emerald, ok worst businessman, which I say it is the world's worst business man, but he always promoted himself like he was the world's greatest business, but he was a buffoon. He was a buffoon and Putin wasn't you know, Putin was very much a behind the key. I get it, but I guess I just look at him. He just looks like that guy, but I bet, but in terms of your right and in one sense in its like that someday.
I'm gonna be somebody. Suddenly he worked right now. I can just like a nobody right like a guy, that we support a united ambition, you're down those who have no friends- and I was just like your festering, but he was doing favours for people and then he was. He was highly regarded by one of the oligarchs gunning bore spurs, ask use in the film and we got and then Yeltsin and they kind of move demand because he first comes the power not by being elected but a Yeltsin appoints and president you know on why ok, yeah two thousand rife yeltsin at that point was drinking. So much in his brain was so addle. He could barely be understood, a really and and then and prudent, takes but then once he takes over? He begins to furnish a reputation and becomes the Putin. No today, right by taking over the this, isn't he and we whatever he's doing up there, he's reinstating authoritarianism right. It is not enough.
The original communist system, but it certainly an authoritarian, it's kind of like a crony capitalist system or a gangster capitalist system. I mean because it's not communism rise, not state control, its its capital, but with all these crisscrossing favours being done with the state. What what's the difference in the quality of life with the people there is is during the this sort of outward capitalistic experiment. What, the quality of life now do they feel that he some sort of Bin a moment that reminds me in the old days and are they are thereby she needs being met. I think I think Putin did bring stability, russian. He was aided in great measure by the fact that while prices started to soar, you know Russia Lot awhile and that's where Hata Kuski was he was in the world is not so suddenly prices started, saw a lot of money started moving into Russian. So people's me, no quality I've did began to rise and an anomaly that, but it seemed to be more stable, so I think a lot
people in Russia give Putin Alot of credit for bringing greater stability, but Ever then, there's the great mind fuck, you know there. He takes over the tv stations which in and in Russia it's not like they. They can't stop all the end as you made a point of saying in there is some some resistance. Yours Fidel legitimate, but some legitimate resistance to him from that he allows enormity it'd be like Fox Cubed it'll, be like you know. If Trump own Graham S, NBC and CNN and Fox and get it I get it. We were half an authoritarian state here, we're we're slouching in that direction. Right a you know in in adjusting buddy the interesting thing about seeing where you, what you were captured is that there is a willingness on behalf of our even of that's right word. Is it the brain. Fuck was was all in on everybody, and here you can see it If the people are a little less than half men there still
a number of people were like what happened to my cousin road happened, my uncle, that's because, like they volunteered for them, brain fucking that they're not gonna recover from right, but I don't know who wins I dont know here I mean it seems like that. Friend globally is due to strong men, bullshit, yes, it is in and it is not surprising look. You know it happened in previous years too. When things get answer people want a strong man here usually a man who is going to make the trains run on time, but what was when certain the fact that your men could marry men and women can marry women, there is a certain amount of people that were so right now, everything's upside down right again, but it so it's who embarrassing and shallow. Our scandinavian countries and other countries in the world. They don't even get preoccupied with this crap. That's right now the struggle of forty coffee in the movie is at once. He once were Putin says he may be basing
says, the while the oligarchs look make all your money. That's fine, I'm not gonna, take back the money that you guys got for that deal you made with Yeltsin, but stay out of politics and hotter kuski. Since they are politics he starts to by believing capitalism really believes in capitalism. He believes any trying to bring a kind of rule of law? Capitalism, because, as the other big thing that was missing in Russia. You know weirdly during the nineties. There is a huge amount of freedom of the press. Even Nelson allowed himself to be criticized rather rope We buy the arrest but what was missing was a rule of law right. The courts were feeble, and the sense of of law regarding the system was: was wasn't there, so because he becomes interested because he is interested in doing a big deal with Exxon, Mobile in a more weight right, yeah there in a more transparent way, You know, so you have to have rule of law. For that you have to have a system that
you can believe in so that your property won't get taken away at a moment's notice via some guys, like you write, so so then that of set Putin. It did and defend is that how to Caskey was angling for political influence, upset him and also but, of course, he's a pretty powerful guys go a lot of money and he seems buying influence in the Duma, the rubber, a body in Russia and so but does your? Does he not have gangsters well Caskey during this period, and do you know that's the thing we didn't talk about me? Not only was it a crazy time for people, you know who had always been, kind of guaranteed a living. Now they could starve. They be, successful bright, but is also a terribly violent time, whereas you know you- and so you know Caskey had kind of like a private army? If you want, you know, people told me if you walked into his offices the offices of Yucas the oil com.
Hey, you know, you'd see these guys with long letter, jackets with Kalashnikovs sticking out of them, You know it was whose tumble taxes in the movie- you know he sort of presented, is as a noble character, a flawed we'll character that that is trying to that's fighting a good fight, but you really you. You know with the case of the assassination of that too. Was it a mayor, the mayor? Why get there trying to hang it on him, but the. But there is a window there. We start when you watch the thing we rise in order to hold unto her or accumulate that much power he must have. He must have had his thugs, he did. He did. I was thugs, and I think it was a that's why you know one of the guys in the film sky, Derek Sour, whose sir ran the Moscow times. You know he came to Hata key because he knew as up as arising upcoming business man. He was gonna, be started by thugs right, and so he needed. We roof protection, and so he came to how too costly for protection has decided
whiskey had muscle cells so that all the oligarchy where it was almost tribalism. In that the Ici all had their private? It was alcohol, nor so yeah yeah, but I mean given that they were different businesses or a sort of them must have been a deterrent among them their. Whilst there was an end, that's why you call em oligarchy in away because it was a system that they were kind of feeling that they were in control in other they were able to many the levers of government in in their interests then, when Putin run small out, take out monomer all out, but he basically says like he runs the two tv guys out so that they go and take over tv. Some of the other Oleg arcs are like ok, we'll play ball will do whatever you say. Just let us keep making money go up there, some of them the end and then how to costs key is like well, I've got other plans and- and I want a different kind of Russia than the kind of russian that you want and there's a famous
change between them. It's actually a televised live television, its who is a big programme on corruption and hot coffee calls out Putin publicly the outer corruption a few more. Later, Hata Kuski was in prison on his way to the gulag in Siberia and he spent seven years after ten ten years ten years, hard hard, time nearer uranium mine in the mongolian chinese border, and he came back. He came back. He was pardoned and We didn't really come back. I mean parted. Deal was that he would leave, because I think, during isn't something happened because look hot coffee was a ruthless This man during the nineties. Prick Finally, during the nineties you know he took advantage and a lot of people he's a terrible guy for fur for what he did and the degree to which he took advantage, but in prison? I think a tea he took a good hard. Look at the sis
and also at himself, and he became a kind of character whose inspired for people who would write these letters, he would write articles and it was all about how Russia can become. You know a more inspiration democratic country, it doesnt transgress on this, on the civil rights of its people and- and he be he's kind of a heroic figure. So the fact that he was in, isn't look bad for Putin and a lot of foreign leaders were like you, gotta left this guy Hata Caskey out the pressure is too great Putin, so so she Olympics coming up. So I thought I knew what I'll do I'll? Let him make sure to get him out of the country and hee hee hee, let em on the same day in and as part of the same order with pussy, where I yeah, yeah, yeah, right, ok,
and then he for, if we use in exile, he's an exile loosen. London were where things aren't always so safe for russian exile knows they seem to be drawing like flying radioactive waste. Yeah, that's right so, but when we, the murder charge hung on it. So The murder was back and ninety eight and back then you know seem like to check and gangsters had done it. I mean It literally sprayed the sky with with gun fires holocaust. We gotta call saying you know his brains spilled out of his skull right, Chechen gangsters were arrested, they were briefly let go and then they were murdered. Kind of where the story sad, but then one A casket was arrested five years later, two thousand three Suddenly it's, the government discovers a whole new set of possible perks, and they start laying the groundwork for
idea that it may have been. You call that had done it. Over time. It gets closer. Also closer how too costly until after Hata Kuski is pardon and leave the country. Finally, they literally charge autocracy with murder. Is there a way to keep them out of the country? Yes, ok, and why? Why would it have been you cause? I can't remember what the connection of the mayor was too well. You know there was a big hit you this was. It shows you how free willing it wasn't me. You know: the marrow of this town. Nephew guns was big oil town and he, complaining that you know you could wasn't paying its fair share of taxes. Hotter a ski was saying: look we pay taxes, but basically you're do what you're doing with our money is you're, giving it in bribes. These chechen gangsters near sought as one famous time or how to Caskey, flew into town with big bags of cash and was paying
nurses and doctors and civil servants wrecked making, and so there was a huge conflict between the mayor and Holocaust So there was a. There is no doubt that there was ill will between, but not like right like, if but it's not the same as well as if he does make his payment on time well loved. You know that that's what people speculated about as it was such a rough and tumble time and by the way he was killed on how to Caskeys birthday Here- and there is a tradition like this. This journalist, Anna Pollack, Kafka, was killed on pollutants birthday and the way it works. Some people say is that you know lower down functionaries decide. This is a way to please the boss right. So it's a sign of results. Right happy birthday, happy pretty, and so there is some question as to whether that was going on, but the thing that argue against that. Is that huh with the mayor was killed just a few days after Hata Cowskin, the mayor had come to a deal right, they finally
you're all of this conflict. They come to a deal. So it's a funny to kill somehow I thought he was most likely railroad right and I think the the film tries to show you know without knowing exactly who killed the mayor is that when you have tv, That is doing you're, but when you own the tv stations where you can slowly but surely construct fictions that become reality and for everyone? in today s nephew gods. They only believe one thing that hot coffee killed the mayor, because prudence a propaganda campaign was, you know, ruthlessly effective, it's it's in the end, so that was the empty Yes, for telling the story now. I think these are you for that impetus for telling the story now. What was too for one was to find out about Russia like hearted rush, power in Russia were right right and In so doing you can see her costly, but also tells us a lot about Putin. But the other one was it was kind of.
Cautionary tale for us, like you, can look at this tell me- you- can see here's what pure free market capitalism looks like here's, what happens when politicians really get control of the media. Here's what happens the truth doesn't matter anymore he's what happens the judiciary is weak. You know all was figs if we're watching a phone like this should give us pause like. You know where we sliding in this direction. Yet why me the truth, is becoming nebulous in and in this like, I I still I just. I think what were finding is that, civic duty understanding what what makes this country function in work and great an inn sort of your how politics works most. You don't know when they don't give a fuck right and in There's this idea, like America, this America, that America is great, but most people paying lip service to most things around America even in
oh people that you- and I know they- they don't really know what the fuck are you talking about. And they don't know you're, what's it steak, and so, when you hear bits and pieces of of hearsay, quick, better, whatever Nineveh Sinew guy. Now now it's like at some point there to be a barometer of fact right and in an institution the fifth estate or whatever, that you believe that's right, but like now, I think it's happening more than just propaganda is at the dissemination. Information in general is allowing people to do get aids to kind of get on tethered. It comes overwhelming, the volume of information and the volume of click bade information. That's, I think one of you knows there is from two. It's like this stuff. Comes this such pressure to two to generate stuff so quickly. Yet without taking a beat and sang, wait a minute what
really happened here. Maybe we should take a few days actually figure that out or even just read the whole article right. I gave you. I think that most people just taken these moments and it's enough to throw us which, in their brain to go yeah. I heard that thing was not that this or that well, and that is a poor problem that we all have. You know that confirmation, biased thing where were we kind of hard wired. To believe what our try beliefs right and so this media environment, where everything is designed to kind of you know like pavlovian terms, to try to make here, you know. I hate the other side and believe your side is good right. It's just it's meant to be sort of emotional food. Right sure, Amelia over our worst impulses right right, yeah. This need for its just a very odd thing. They did people think that things are so compartmentalize and things.
With conspiracy theories. It ranks like you I like just because you can put these pieces together and get the The answer that you want that they could actually happen that well, they make us feel because they give us a sense of certainty, neglect its it's almost like religious dogma. Yeah, that's right! in a way it is like religion and it's you know, as I do What about that in the subtitle was the prisoner belief You know why you get locked in the prison of belief. You know, then things were problem. Is you work, as I saw that you awhile back that these are even now wait when you and into that your outside of your justly this inquiry, we all have the I I I fundamentally able to suspend disbelief there. Hardly at all, let alone was necessary to believe bullshit right.
Yeah I mean, I believe, my own bullshit, but the whole God thing in the health check is went on the outside. When you look at your fox news or science, oh gee, right more in some ways in terms of the rain. Fucking it'll give you sure you know when you're, not the kind of person that can suspend you just leave you like how the hell does that happen. Well, and it's what I was interested in. I was interest because an end I and I found a group of people agree to be interviewed, including you know the director Paul had oh yeah. Further. The actor channel tunnel remembers Wonderful actors on the Czech of police show The outer in no he's out now but all these people were interesting to me, was to find out how they got in, because they were all smart people right right and The answer is a little bit of the time. You know that One Scientology first comes at you Don't say: look here of the sea:
papers that tell you about T T Act, the foreign planet and the overlord, with new blows, shut up and volcano yeah. You don't get any that stuff. You just get. You sit down with his machine area and somebody talks to you like a therapist talks to you for self help, and just I'm kind of young and you feel better, like you talk yourself out, you tell a few of your problems and its simple get anywhere, but you get well even even before that. It's just like just talk. Problems, ash everything just felt good near. Maybe I'll go back here right. Slowly, but surely you get indoctrinated into a series of beliefs systems, but also a different kind of a language. I talked to scientologists we're on the verge of getting out fact. They talked earlier, when he just those shoes on them. Just ass. She had gotten out and was was hard to understand her because the degree of jargon was so intense. Like I was there with a researcher who had been in Scientology, so
for so long. She was like translating form like. I was talking to hot coffee or something right. You know, but that slow immersion process that that takes you there and then you find yourself years later? If you want to get out, because you realize all sorts of human rights abuses are going on, you realize, will I've been a fool How do I now- met to myself the rival, I myself to be fooled. That's a very hard thing to do. Well, that's why we're fucked is a country that, that's that's exactly you know because I know there's a lot of people that now a good person page of their anger is is is, is that sounds a day and they can accept that. Pride would allow them to accept. If they were wrong, feathered are going to double down. That's right and that's a huge problem. It's scary do yet is scared. And you found out what Scientologists has the time I mean I think that's what was so tough and that's why it's so hard! people to leave because
have to admit Jane, yeah, and its is, though they have to admit that they ve been lying to themselves for these years. The vivid live wasted their lives. It's a very hard thing to do now. I don't think they were their lives and and the way they ultimately get out us by saying. Look, so long journey, I'm on and those few years I may have been full, but I'm a good person and I'm coming out the other side, all that. But it's it's a very hard thing too admit that you were wrong. It interesting that happens in personal relationships, is all the time and happens in politics at arms and personal relationships. It's you know hard wired to believe in some ways, even though we have capacity to to check those. These with a kind of rational understanding and what's going on, the belief thing is some sort of mutation of some kind of survival instinct in IE, so unite Existentialist, isolated and terrified Allah to write and and and and and sometimes it useful- I mean we're
oh yeah, we're imbued with snap judgments. So did you you know when it's dark and- and you hear a sound its loud. You know you jump You look around. You know rather than area its also useful and even idea, just in a sort of like YO keeping your shit together on a day to day basis. You have to assume that there's something I need some sort of thing the belief that will life is worth living. Yes, it can be vague where'd you get it at that vague faith. I I'm ok without with me, did you like what what what drives you towards you even the Enron thing without was sort of straight up. You know I, let's get it let's get inside. This racket but was what was interesting to me and end the the part that was hard to get out here, The culture of Enron and the culture of Enron did turn people into something different, because because you- and here
Carol California, unlike the worst of Enron, was that period when these election, city, traders were shipping. Atrocity out of the state media waiting for. Prices to rise, and then shipping and back in and right, and that was appeared where there were causing brown out all over the state blackouts all that stuff and the funny thing was, as I begin to do, research into some of these traders, particularly the ones who were caught and charge Miasm case convicted. You know you would have thought okay, they must have been the worst kind of people, but you look at who they were in their communities like they were the people who were you know, always beating the drum for charitable contributions. They were, they were doing help at the fire department. They were No, there are extraordinarily civic minded people write in their private lives, but they'd be
I am convinced that the Enron was this avatar of pure capitalism and that you had to be a shark right with. I think that's again, that's the wave of that is still kind of happening night. There's this guy the idea in the inn, and now it is different in terms of of happening politically, where you leave the country. Action or or the tenets of democracy are, are, are becoming seen as is archaic in the face of sort of like what. Why should he be able to fucking do whatever is necessary right? the president were what else who what we want is being present in Bulgaria. Do which rights at any number of shame was small time. Fucking gryphus disguise attracted the guy which I always been a republican thing, put somebody that has the agency that will collapse a thing. That's right, you know just that's the way they day day they want to: u deconstruct the state right but better, but this
shamelessness on behalf of regular people, lack of tolerance and just or the Viking out these Republicans in Congress there there is It is the point where they it's it's, not that they really believe what they're saying but they're like who gives a fuck we're gonna, win well and at the end of day, it's all about winning, but that you're gonna. We wonder like winning for what you know cause cause. I've talked for them the same with Enron, yeah yeah. You ve got to talk to some republic. Congress Again- and there like this- is really bad, but where we can say anything so so keep the pressure you know he's not on Eu Urinal, Zani right, you're, doing a good job needs to keep keep going and then they all turned around and a faint knew exactly the bill. The Higgs hectically fuck it now Enron, these that the people were in bed food with this sense that only by
being the most rapacious bastard. You know, could you make the market work Royal and that was the view right and everybody got into that culture and tell, of course collapse because it could lead to rank criminality but which it with which it will and I dont want. I have to assume that they know that They knew and they didn't know. I mean I think, that's where you get into this vibe, where you in order to lie effectively. You have to lie to yourself right because, as in that's belief, that's belief and and it's a variation unit. Is it there's something? If- One thing is turn my head around in terms of doing documentaries, these last fifteen years the idea of the end justifies the means. Yeah used actually believe. That was a good idea like if you have noble, Anthea. Ok, you have to get your hands dirty yeah. Now see how dangerous it is, because once you go down
at road slippery slope. It's a very slippery slope. Please call a noble cause: corruption near you start planning, you know Heroin and they asked pockets and stuff like that? Is you can't get them for murder right and the next thing? You know everybody's bad and you are entitled to be corrupt because you're, the good guy near the bad guys for you, at you. You ve created your own moral universe. Right, that's right, You become the monster cop, that's right, yeah so like. When did you what? What compelled you too? I s invasion work, power, because I did not do here they. My life was compelling me to work as what was happening goes like dude. We it's a money, but wait wait, but did you always journalism, I mean what word you start where'd you grow up. I grew up in unequal I agree I kind of in the book scenario and then our part, Cambridge, oh you're, in Cambridge yeah, we that's fans
Why was the apparent academics? Well, my mom, my Mama Jaeger divorce, when my dad was a journalist, my mom and dad got divorced when I was three in New York and my mom went to Cambridge and she worked for children's hospital. Ok shows a director of health education. She she attic actually had a part jewelry. This George goes to the hospital he I think so sure anyway, I'm not sure I remember it ll anyway, she had a part in helping to put out together last night, so so anyway, so I grew up in Cambridge and then she married the chaplain at Yale, and I of two New haven for the last two years eyes. That he was a famous guy, William Sloan coffin. I mean that the EU is like an interesting figure right. He was an interesting kind of civil rights figure in and very much anti war activist but was any one of those guys like you, I didn't do a lot of research by. I knew the name I was kind of poking around. Wasn't the guy that was on the other side and then you know had some sort of come to Jesus moment no way back
day. He was always s which is the precursor to the CIA, air and but then he had a lot of. I mean he wants to be a concert pianist for a while, and then he entered divinity school, yet Hiram no I believe, as yeah yeah its way in a baby. Was he a believer? Yes, oh yeah, he was able and this is the guy used to say, there's a great expression which I am now a believer, but I like the idea of it even for non believers used to say I love the eye. Love the recklessness of faith. First, you jump and then you grow wings. Help you hope and well that's what faith is all about right around the world. The worst case scenario: you fall flat on your face outlining knocked you so stupid that you going believing anyway orange rewards or its wily coyote and is a long way down. Yeah yeah, you just become, may the chip on your shoulder right, me and my weight was that there was no famous christian philosopher Yale. What was it?
as named newborn you or me or something I read some of that stuff. Was he a progressive? Yes christian? Philosopher yes, was he and he was very much? I mean it's interesting now because in this these in particular, there were a lot of sort of socially conscious, liberal enlargement, clergyman yet lot or seemingly than today sure they were on the front lines where they were used in the civil rights move. That's right yet using Christians, you have a lot of soul when it came to doing the right thing, that's right, and so you grew up with that guy indeed, and Immediately by you maintain relations with your father. I did. I did you're gonna journalist. Was he work or time Life Newsweek. You know he had and and then ended up. He was one of those guys who he's he sat down and kicked up so got fired from a lot of jobs
get up and Encyclopaedia Britannica which cause them to live in Japan for lot of his life wow. So why would the did he, never did he give up No, you didn't give up, I mean he has, He went over there to do a job which was to translate the Encyclopaedia Britannica or supervise the escalation of the Britannic into Japanese. Oh, my god, He had learned Japanese when, during the war, as well as a whole generation of japanese colleges, did you know he was an interrogator A really there were two interesting, so you ve got it got him fired with ie like just mouth off to his superior. I mean you know he was. He was a good journalist. Steed did one sort of muck raking book called the operators in all above dad, businessmen, oh yeah, and then he did a famous book. There was famous for what kind of Pudding Japan on the map called, five gentlemanly Japan, but he was a good journalists, but he was he didn't get along with his boss. It very well serve as an example
like you as to male role models? It makes sense. Where you are we in your? My dear, you have kids? Are you going records, and I saw you ask them. I think I am that's where you got from your mom right exactly now, do what was it Always the idea was to go into journalism. Where'd you go out, I went to Yale, fancy was, I went to you, see allay from school. So you won't work. Or some other, the intent I mean I mean, we have some maker de my dad wanna be go the family business, which was print journalism, but I really caught the movie bug in college and one in particular you know the two that I remember being floored by one was a dark and once a fiction found, the dock was gimme. Shelter by the measles rose. I just talking to a guy yesterday about that such a great film,
in its structure, like a murder, mystery, you know, that's cool thing about have been, of course it's the stones, and is this cinema verity thing that the measles did and then the result of film by spanish from Mr Luis Manuel Culture, the exterminating angel, yeah, yeah patches of great found, very our very funny remember those I mean I think our moonshine into Lou was at one were there. The one that bloody eyeing the eyeball yeah. I remember seeing you generally Salvador, Dolly Railways instrument aging, those with the above bunch of red, analysing people right who go to a dinner party were and then all the servants like we gotta, get the fuck out of here and now and then for a reason Nobody can explain, they can't leave the room and they end up. You know Heidi breaks down. They end up trying to kill each other. They trying to find each other here. You know every
breaks down. So these are, I guess I can get those things that make sense here which I became exactly, but you never want to do a fictional features. I did I mean I write out. Are you silly from school got a job with Samuel Goldwyn company, and I I I I was interested in fiction features in and I won't be an editor in alike. But some exploitation trailers. I well yeah. Can editor on this film that they did and and then I got frustrated, because being an earlier, if you're not on a good pictures, a tough job, so I kind of hung out a shingle as a documentary, and yet didn't work out very well for about ten year, while You start like what it was like what what were, what were the first sort of forces into it so well he'd graduate we're? So I ever graduated from the film school. You know I left because I got a job Goldwyn near by
that was the ticket. I thought them inside an errand and put on the way, and now the been like in the early eighties yeah, but then you know I did a couple of films. I did this one film called battle for Eastern Airlines about a b. Strike. Ah, but I was scuffling here and I was doing a lot of freelance writing. I wasn't really getting as far as I thought, I should it wasn't, it wasn't really I didn't really get started until I I went to New York, which was not until like that later. Andy's yeah invite them over there was that what was the one that you consider the one they're gonna put you on the map. There were there were two you know I was involved, were Eugene directly to this thing called the trials of Henry Kissinger about the dark side of Henry Kissinger. I can remember that with He did you director, no, are and pressed it and and Eugene directed it and and
I did Enron right. The big thing that kind of change my head about how to do it all was the blues. I was part of the series, the blues, that money who says he produced a series of docks with fiction, filmmakers MM, but he did one Clint Eastwood did one vendors did want at once, What did one and MIKE figures, So I got to be here. I was the producer, and so I got to watch you sort of men at work right in what way, what what first struck you? That in turn struck me about it was that they had tremendous respect for the real stuff, like the the blues and what it was and and and and this documentary material. We have I was a blues fan, but I also have to say I didn't know that much about me. I can tell I really dug in and but Then it was their ability to kind of fine. A personal away in and and to make it a kind of artistic state.
That is, on the one hand, was personal to them terms of what they wanted to say, but had great respect for the documentary material itself, like attention was really interesting, so The films were widely different, and I realize all you know: there's no rulebook here. Are you do anything you want so so what struck me was that there were still sort of a tourist sensibility to capturing the yak set right? There is a they're in documentary a point of view This is not only possible but essential in and can go as far as you want it. I think that's right and there's something for that sort of themselves too much. I agree I mean, but you know that it's all a matter of taste his choices, but I think that the great thing is and what led to This golden age of documentary was breaking free from the rule book of the big three net
Burke documentary, the angels Asia I mean what's interesting. Also, is that, like you know, they're there is there. I used to do joke about that. It felt like a about like enough docks right here, just I'm on my way, I was told, don't say the word documentary when the union for a job, just because you have a cell phone and dying cat, does I'll make you a filmmaker. So right a guy like to call it one of nine, but what I did like because there are a lot of dogs and then now in this age because their cheaper to make- and you can approach however, you want to approach etc, and you know you can and insert use of as much as you want. But what what is it you're going to kind of assess these interests? hey, I'm just thinking of now that there are time were younger people were gay, were able to buy cameras, instant cameras, yeah right. So then you had divide, this struggle within the community of art historian. So how do we establish photography rise in our food? You have documentary for that.
We now have art photography being at every ass on the world's gotta camp. That's right! So that sort of clouds. The water or new who gets what is like the idea, the pencil I mean anybody can use a pencil right over at an easier idea right, but because COS I was coming up. You know it was a whore. Her barrier to entry cause of sixteen millimeter film, sixty millimeter film, was expensive then rent a camera that was expensive now the bear is much lower. I mean you can you can chew, something on your your Samson, your Iphone aware, and then you know even if you bar somebody's computer added together and bingo. You got a movie, you know so, so the buried entries lower, but you know like any medium, its What is the artist do with material, right by also acted. The sad thing is not unlike in quick bade or any sort of disseminating information outlets.
Is that a year I mean that we can still have these standard, but by did the markets can be flooded with content that's what they call. It has voted with content, but I think the good stuff does rise in the top. You know people and and interesting things about dogs, be particularly in this moment. You know where were dominated by click, Baden Social media, you know in appear rid of ninety minutes to two hours: sore or or take some of the dock. Many series, like the jinx scene, you immerse yourself in a world in the world for For my money the world's that are more complicated that you, you walk thinking, I'm not sure what I think.
Right. That's what I'm thinking about it that these be that that seems to be the agenda of a good dog. When you walk out like down off, he killed them right or or maybe I know he killed them, but was not a good thing or a bad thing. That person rise of exact area is so all those things where because if you don't think about it after you left- and it feels like it's, not a good documentary, but but that aspect is what we so desperately need. It seems to me you, the thinking part. You know rather than ready. Fire aim right yeah. It doesnt serve to convoluted the truth in such a kind of in a way that that people were trying to hide something. Do again, there will now be like in the in the movie the citizen, Kane move here. You know that's what interested me but the murder right right for law. In time the murder was grey. It was your humble
did you do. I know exactly what was like right, but the goal of the Putin regime was to try to make it. Simplest possible. So the gray separates into pools of black and white. You ve gotta, with a white. Have you got a guy with a black cat, simple I hear what you have it seems is having on happening in our authoritarian experiment is It's not why hadn't gray had it sort of like well, you know what they're saying is two simple, this one seems a little more elaborate and complicated and crazy, but that makes it more true like when you look a conspiracy theories, any logic in them: yeah yeah, yeah, you Take anything it's like even the thing about conspiracy, there's though, as they do fit together at some point it nobody, you throw retroactive right. Yes, it's ok, it's awaited stupid people feel smart, that's right! You who don't like your necessarily put a context on anything just line up a bunch of things not even
two sorrowing quantum logical order well in and an ascribed to them, a kind of intention riot than me been pure circumstance and there's a I think, there's a romantic cessation of it that you have something could be that devious just plays into their sense of of intrigue. Yes, yes, in that year who the bad guys are, but, but so that disrupts the truth, because they they can accept. Sometimes issues mundane right is it they D. They refused to have to think that your history this kind of points out in support of the strange bureaucratic way and there the people aren't you organised as they a tribute them to be. I think that's always the case yeah, but any time you think that sore on in the black towers planned at all. You know you,
god I mean. Look I just as an old school kind of like aggravated. Where do you think you're am disappointed in the deep state if they do exist ass? I had expected more funding. I thought they wouldn't nipissings, but if they thought they were actually turns out, they don't exist at all. It turns out there like an hacks, enjoy sloppy where's smiley. So what was this? The hunter S, Thomson docketed gone oh really alive when he did. It know that my first then on the job was to photograph his funeral, the Johnny Depp version where they blew his ashes earlier in the rocket yeah, and I got into it after that. What would you do? be that, as I see it on the rest, may there's a couple, a sort of like a kind of vague. Boomer heroes We might euro Suva conclusion and an hunter value. Both those guys were heroes to me
infer kind of similar reasons? I mean Hunter? I thought one of the great political books of all time was his campaign. Seventy to cure, whose just great, via an mixed. The rigour of a journalist with a kind of artistic ambitions of the novelist right right here. You know all that stuff and you become the store yeah. You become the story, but also you can you you wanna refund something go for it. You see Muskie, he looks you know heavy lidded and and and door and so you imagine that he's you know addicted to the strange congolese hallucinogenic, Bulgaria, why? I do not know Nixon, he imagines as a werewolf fino dripping with blood you're leaving the white. Why not? So I was wrong we are interested in that and but the difference during him that now then, and that now your people on the right who think like he is addicted. Well anyway, I right yeah yeah
no Hunter NEWS, a joke which here he could turn of phrase, do yeah. He is really a masterful writer funny and He had a liberty, he had a freedom to do that, that's right in and that's what I love about him. So I thought I will. Let me explain let me get into it. I was also interested to I mean he had a kind of personal tragedy, which is that he I mean it was the dry but really the alcohol but yeah, but then he became it's like the great lesson for artists. It's like don't believe the clippings. He became a kind of caricature, of himself yeah we're people counted on him to be Hunter, and then he can thought well. What would Hunter do? Meaning some fictional, version of who I am more, you any held court and he had the ass. You, like you, acolytes sure you have pushing him too for right. It was never able to at least seemingly never able to self upset, assess enough to come manages life. That's right and also in a when you're young and yourself
educating with all those drugs and alcohol. You can manage it yeah. No, here on her when brained himself, that's right, you did like you, I can t actually did you did fucked his brain. He did you could see it. I saw these guys did the last Steiner with Hunter and started it and then Hunter said. Look I gotta go I'll, be back and later when they started it. Hunter was sweet. He was cool, it's great. Went off to the barn and had a bunch drinks, and we came back. He was completely out of control. Oh he was howling with anger. You know he was in. Coherent, you know- and you I see it there so that mistake was working w. We ask that he was writing about sports Georgie. Right and he wrote about sports, though he had these moments of a city. We we talk about one in the film, the you know, right after nine eleven here, the peace in for yes, Vienne cassettes. Who is writing for the time, but he wrote a piece
that kind of laid out. The whole war on terror, where this was all gonna go near was a brilliant peace. We started the film of that media and was right. He was dead on data What I mean that you want an Oscar for movie, you did about the sort of downs, I'd of the war on terror, dark side, Yazzi to the dark side here and it's it's interesting. Me that now like with this kind of them attempted authority, and take over the system. Will you have your trump as its president, who is thinking going to involved in the military by enabling them to commit war crimes without any any kind of punishment.
You know. A movie like attacking the dark side is YO an indicator of of that. A vat should be you're not at night, not question right and it's interesting taxi. The dark side was all about torture and how the Bush administration basically enabled a culture of torture. You know that film one it was completed, ended up being required viewing at the army, Jack School. You know, and Anna was taught frequently at West Point. Cause me real military code knows that there has to be you're being it's like the sheriff in the wild West. Here you have a licence to kill right, but there were laws in war MIA. Do you know you have to play by the rules and if you don't play by rules, discipline breaks down you're. No longer your put your plane
game. Of the end justifies the means. It's just a pure power game and and you have an trump himself also. We remember the campaign trail said here: we gotta bring back torture, we're yeah I mean he he's really doing his best to the this is our this is a real struggle for the system, this is an authoritarian leader, it we're dealing with yes and you know whether this is in his testing our systems Consequently, all of our institution, there buckling yeah there having broken yet there buckling fuck, and so what you are about Casey Qc I was such a huge fan of his it is therefore right that the output was interesting. These are two fucking booty. Raising moments of clarity and fiction and that's right kind of what happened in the well. You know he's just up there. He was up there
isles, the but yeah one flow, the glucose nest and then sometimes I very notion gas to novels are just real power. Thank you. He was, and but I also like the fur for Chiesa like the whole idea of play and magic sure cause for him. You know, there's a famous morn, whether pranks authors, rodion on a big anti war demonstration in in San Francisco and on the bus. NEA was driving undoubtedly here and for fur, For my money was a great moment because they saw that in the dim, thracian. It was a peace demonstration, but then he had kind of beer viewed with a sort of militaristic form of the demonstration itself, a writer of protests in case he was trying to say, lighten up. You know their you you're playing the rules, Replying according to their rules, rules that we should be. You know
investing in which of the rules of creativity and play in order that wish- which I I found really interest- his whole life ii. He was indeed It's that idea, which it with which I really like, but the the film came about, because we just covered that there had been the sixteen millimeter film that crazy shot out really of the famous bust trip, and nobody had really put it all together, country yeah both going. And then coming back My love there? I thought there tom of their great, but he did. He did to a great book though we got into and we realise how much he had act. As the sum of the audio tapes? Clearly who moved it, yeah, which I didn't really realize I mean it, was a cop lately here being scheme, they didn't have anybody who knew how to operate the cameras or they are needed. I see I or hated the idea of exports right. They hired a sound man for one day in New York at the world's fair any quit because he was so like you guys are fuck
you know I hear, are high and like an end so, but magnificent its ways we were down the road we, my editor and correct, Alison Ellwood and I went down the road of trying to reassemble. This footage that had been cut to cut apart by accusing the pranks dares to see. If we can- something back together here there would get into that zone. I gotta watch it yeah. They I thought so Could you tell me what is your magic trip it? It turned out, I think really well and and most the film is just their footage. And their audio you're not gonna. Tell The stories are moving across the country and then on the way back. What kind of an epic journey when I finally red Electric Kuwait acid test. I judge a great book. It's great because at that moment. Were gipsy shows up at Millbrook
and looking for Hungary and Leary so uptight, but that's it the two schools about who schools of acid like I just I love that moment, Eurasia right there appear meditating, it's a ritual. Eighty south could write Keating workers, the was a fuckin housework right. You know so he's got there they're, all meditating in wearing Rodya? We have that seem in the film you do cause. They photographed at it's kind of great. It's hilarious, aren't they all dressed in there I'll be outlined, glower now vs in there in their they're playing instruments which they really can't play, but you know, and and and and and they couldn't take it so they the they beat it off to the local waterfall, whether all the daddy I do in the dance infecting NEO Cassidy's still well and known. Neil wasn't on the bus on the way back, which made a little made the character of a lot different, but he won't. Definitely driving the Boston away across and its fastened into here here, because we ve got a lot of his wraps on tape. Oh yeah, so
can hear him talk and he talked incessantly. It was like He was the motor back by whose almost like he was almost like. That's singing really So we must really that guy really this year, that character had like is the story. I'm just dying walking down in railway track. True, apparently he left as Robert Stone, who, sadly, I think is no longer with us. He wrote the book, which is a great film. I really liked it wasn't that much scene was based on his book bought dogs. Voters called we'll stop the rain. He only acknowledge e yeah and Mcnulty. You know you can that's the last seen easier like walking down that train track. I was sort of obsessed with those guys meter a little older than me. So if I little closer for you like hell, you sixty six yeah, you can hear and memories go, and so I had to think for a second but your ten years on me. So you are actually in it. When I was like the way I just eke out a boomer like the last sliver of where's but you're like in it
yeah I mean I was like an in. I was fifteen and sixty eight, so I wasn't quite. Hot, but I saw yea like mine, where it was my blown. So what somebody? What do you like we're where does this movie go now, sir? but sir- was having a little theatrical run here and around the country and then ultimately end up on Amazon AWE and what's next thing, what he would with the next fight man. When we do- and I don't know The noise be something I M doing a Corky film in the meantime, all about why we kill. I got interested in the psychiatrist named Dorothy Louis. Can you break it down Have you a couple of areas NASA? No one of them is over money and one of them somewhere pussy. Here, what's a third year exactly now she said it's more of a serial killer thing. Also this a woman whose examine or serial killers than just about anybody, and what? What? What, when
where do you find it well? What's who spoiling not don't spoil anything, but I mean you know it all goes back to childhood. Let's just say I really It is with those guys here everything goes back to How can I gorse that's? What do you mean? They found there there through each of their story. You dig in you, you you, you find some kind of brain damage and and just a record of horrific abuse, either sexual or physical abuse. Oh really yeah and you do like you do other stuff to do non documentary stuffed yeah. I did I mean I I did the series called the looming tower. I remember that in which based on Lawrence Right Book, Pulitzer Prize, we book, and it was all about the battle between if the eye and the CIA in the run up to nine eleven and how the CIA kind of hit the ball, why that's the big question I mean the one of the gases is that they inasmuch as it was there were two members of Al Qaeda then entered the kind.
I didn't see- I knew about eighteen months prior to nine eleven pilots. Well, they ended up being pilots there? They came and studying, study and apply our aim and no sandy egg and the thing is that may be the sea. I want the flip him, but they lost track of them and the next thing they knew those groups right, yeah fac, exactly. I think I guess that's the way, you that's what are things like words, the conspiracy theory there it's just like. They just made a bad call yeah and they won't come to it. I mean that's the and and- and they get very angry this idea that didn't today they would do something like that, but the theirs when no explanation over, I mean they add this information. Eighteen months prior and at least fifty people knew about these guys. And and they knew they had come, they had followed him from a terror summit in Malaysia
They knew all about them, but then anything to becomes again, then it comes down to funding and it comes down to politics, and it comes out your why they enjoy themselves like that. You didn't want to because they have to appear like they know, exists we what they're doing all the time is right that we see this new Adam driver Movie the one idea the report's got burned. Yes, good film, I thought it was informational, film yeah. I thought There was a good learning. Experience was, while acted, it got a little swell, but that it was because at what you had to get up to speed, that's the noise. I mean, I know a lot of the players and that always fond plays a role Dan Jones. I know that will guide am driver point, that's right! Yeah! You know that guy you're in it consumed his life. You did I mean he went down the rabbit horn and did you know, did a great service to US the tragedy and it was a tragedy. The Obama administration was that they weren't we to hold anybody to account and the
inside committee. Most of those you know, a lot of what's in that report is still classified, so the great body of that is still hidden. The american public part of it is like did really kind of revealed in taxi the dark side. Your novi, I mean that what was going on that's right, that's they like. I didn't even realize until I saw this new movie it just the scope of it. Yeah I mean it. Was it spread I mean you know the CIA lights say whether only certain people were authorized for one hour or no. It spread threats rather system, and I talk to guys. You know low level milk. Police and interrogators in in Bagua, and you know the water boarding thing had so infected the system that it became routine. So, whenever they prisoner? They introduce indoctrinate them or uncertainty, they'd induct them near you know they put it on their head and they covered with water. We have to make it
or for them to reach here. So I, like many water boarding for everybody, so the system, it is a migrated like a very virulent virus throughout the system is terrible fuck. How does it happen? He likes you like? This is an area that your kind of dwelling in theirs that you're the area provides the means who gets back to that I mean that they felt that they had an obligation to prevent that next attack and so they were gonna go and that's the only thing that I find incredible tat. You know really hard we stand the CIA had already gone through a cycle where they had tried and experimented with some of these techniques and found them wanting with basically found that what what they deliver Is they deliver? What interrogator wants to hear now? At the truth? It right that takes skill and they apologize to Congress and so forth, and so on then mister Obviously in the wake of nine eleven, all these techniques come back.
And they do it all over again and they get it wrong. But in this case, because they have such high level by in and it migrates over to the armed forces via Rumsfeld and the next thing you know it spreading throughout the system and that's how you got Abu Ghraib right and they may like birthday The, but that's the thing is like when it gets down to that level, where the people who are administering it yet no longer is no longer an annual means is that they can do it. They can do it. Does it think they talk about called forced rift and they did what it well the idea that you know we interrogating somebody who's, not giving you the information that you want here. You have a tendency to amp up The pressure ran the violence, you know and also had come from this idea that you ve been given permission right to go there. So then you natural you start to feel his anger builds up and you're on
strained by any sense of veto. Morality or ethics are so yet, though there that's concerning part of the human animal yeah that part glow and in and that's why and that's why you no good Jerry leaders would say you need an ethical code. You need room. We are. These guys are going to act like animals, because you, your placing people and stressful situations where their bodies are being killed and they're gonna just cut loose right. Again animal mystic kind of liking, a fuck, you receive an unrealistic. It's actually more human rights, pay back its pay back right, yeah yeah, I guess that's the impulse and that's what makes it so. That's what makes it sort of like interesting fodder for people who are try ballistic yeah, both in racist. It's like well fuck down. You know Ellen that that, as you know, we did the serious you knows secular producer, Longest Steven Spielberg came our Islam Discovery call why we hate, and it was
trying to get to the science of why we hate you know how did that evolve? Fear and, interestingly, you know, if you really do with deep dive and they have done some at Yale and as America they done some wonderful studies in terms of sort of infants, study of its it all starts with a sense of justice. An injustice. The were hard wired to get very upset. Things wrong that there's a kind of ethical code? We have that mutate. Over time into sense of perceived injustices. You know our as you get associated with the tribes who try to protect yourself against somebody else here they ve been on just right. You know we're just gonna wait and now we're good and they are bad. And the next thing you know all bets are off. So it starts is something relatively good and you know yet. Recruiters rises, don't start with. Come to the Middle EAST, and you can murder people it's
hearts with a sense of you know. If you're finding a spiritual hole in your life, we can feel that with love and and and a sense of a kinship. You know where, where we can reach to a higher place, and so so its assent, the belonging a sense of higher ideals. That's the entry point right. And genetic elsie turn. You know same thing Scientology. You know suddenly start to abuse human rights, nothing scientologists as bad as ISIS, I'm just saying: that's how gets turn It always starts with the appeal to the goodness right. It's like. We all want to feel that way. Good solidity and are doing bad. You know we're right, we're good guy, an appeal to truth to re, yet all the same Fox NEWS, ISIS
at its heart, religion. Right here, is how it also back the idea. The only thing that's not right goes. I I just wanna buy some pie with having a fleeting its most harmless belief system is what kind of high exactly where the good guy. We must get the best pie right, I don't know man a it's scary. Do It is scary, but you know what the the Good NEWS is that they're, always you know in sting engaged, particularly young people fighting back and and that's always the hope, good. I hope you're right. We too was good jargon, It's great on the EU market. There you go learned a few things, get it we're broader understanding of perhaps the governing that will be partnering with our government and the future of America,
consolidation in governmental structures that will maybe dominates the next decade, The two will be some sort of alignment between Russia and America. Continue, moving along this path away from democracy, helpful to know what the the new rulers look like and how their system worked, so in case now, playing in LOS Angeles, more open in other cities. In the new year he notices and K film dot com. The more info is great talking to Alex and don't worry That time is running out and simply say it's huge holiday offer its their biggest sale of a year, simply say as everything you need to protect your home and family like a smart, lock and video Doorbell for your front door and an army of sensors that guard every room in your home simply safe holiday offer ends December. Thirty first visit simply safe, dotcom, Flash deputy if we ve only got until December thirty first so go today to simply safe dot com, flashed w
Transcript generated on 2019-12-20.