Abigail Disney feels the burden of her last name, particularly due to the practices of the global company that was founded by her grandfather Roy and grand uncle Walt. Marc talks with Abigail about her social awakening earlier in life and her current roles as an activist, philanthropist and filmmaker. They also discuss her new documentary, The American Dream and Other Fairy Tales, about the unequal economy as exemplified by the corporation that bears her name.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
A guy. All right, let's do this, how are you at the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuck nix? What but puppets why? What the fuck puppet where'd, that one come from, I don't feel like I've said that before have. I said that before somebody please go back through the Two hundred episodes in just skim through see if I've said what the fuck puppets it seems like? I have I've done it like ninety times, but listen to me what the fuck puppets, what the fuck birds how's it going. Oh thank you. Yes, you did miss my birthday. It was a tuesday, but thank you could you have now many of you Didn'T- and I appreciate birthday greetings, fifty nine years old and I felt a common I knew was coming all year. I was coming like right after I turn fifty eight o my man, fifty nine is common and then sixty
lucky, but I always feel lucky. I don't pay that much in the future. I try to use my imagination to think of horrible things that can happened to me in the world. I don't think about hey. What am I gonna be doing a month from now weak for now tomorrow, Fifteen minutes from now know. I'd rather think, like. Ah fuck we're in trouble, we're all in trouble. Oh my god when he got plans the future. What future? What are you doing talking about, but I did have a birthday. I had a birthday tell you, but I could, but let me tell you about tat. The chauffeur second Abigail did he is on the show network. She is the daughter of Roy disney and the grand niece of walt her her. Father was waltz brother yeah that disney? How is he is there any other disney's around that aren't disney disney's she's humanity filmmaker and producer she's produce dozens of documentaries going back to her first one and two
thousand in eight pray that Have all back to hell which, after what she told me I want you she's up now watch it. I'm not. You know you can I'm busy learning how awful america was to the Jews. I got I got. It should pay myself and watching the can burns one. That is We are saying that you think dramatic erases now well, before nazis? It was even worse yeah, but but to abigail is also a prominent activist, in particular on the issue pay equity and she's been take hickory critical of the global corporation. That bears her family name. You know disney. She's decode director, along with kathleen hues of a new documentary, the american dream and other fairytales, which I watched and got me back into his own man. Got me I can do that zone that to be in every day when I was hosting the morning, show an air america morning, sedition generally,
fuck me and one is the last time you talked about the power memo yeah exactly one last time you talk about milton friedman, yak common algeria. Look out yeah that a memo. I was obsessed with the power memo obsessed, that was the key man. That was the key. Everything that we are experiencing now from the right in all the full spectrum of it. It just pay back Six, these and pay back for empty are learning to things from the docks. I'm watching that the you ve been pissed off since, after since, in new deal they ve been. Pissed off since immigration policy changed in the thirties. And then there's and hold another group. Then there were just furious at possibility of socialism fusing into our era into our rupture here in the sixties and everything, They put him back powell memo set that standard
it basically says we must do, ever. We need to do at any cost to protect capital, no matter what, anyway, this stuff comes up in my conversations with Abigail, we don't need to talk about it right now cause about my birthday. Also talk about when I mention on Monday, we doing alive deputy the bloomsbury theatre in london on Wednesday october nineteenth my guest be comedian and writer David, but deal gotta deputy upon I come from a tour for tickets. I just read this guy's book, but apparently he has a long track record as a committee an intelligent creator and every It's weird yeah that be a bridge no slouch in the media, content in china and theatre in movies and tv, the world but I don't know much about it. I'm not tapped in I gotta go, have tapped in and will show up to talk to. David, the deal just about Jews stuff, let's be
Let's go the gamut of. Straight up do stuff in and subtlety. Stuff and just hidden. You stuff who wrote this a jew, probably who could know what look at the names, Joe oh yeah, Jews. So look I had a birthday, I gotta be honest with you guys. I've been spiritually uncomfortable in motion. Comfortable mentally uncomfortable. Having had some do my birthday had something to do with her my mother, it's gotta is going into surgery today and have do without a my birthday. We had make sure that use who's gonna. Antonius mothers having spy any a surgery, schedule the do it at the end of the month and then she decided well, they got opening. Why, due at the end of the week. My brother lives down, there's not going to be there. It's just been I little impulse, but we had a on my birthday wrangle that make sure she was set up for some.
In home care, if necessary, and on the phone, my cousin and deal with that with my mom, is not that much older than me? As I mentioned Just a little older than me. My mother, twenty two years older than me. My mother is and she's gone into sgi. My dad, interestingly who, as you know, is beginning the at the dementia process. I think he'd my me saying that debt me out with you I don't think he'd. Remember man. I threw myself following that one the only reason I'm laughing and it sounds like em kind glib is Acta rosy. My dad's wife has been making, listen to these shows so like everyone's gonna be like that If him knowing me when I call are going be pretty good cause, he's listening to this. So He couldn't figure out how to listen to it by himself for say about thirteen hundred and forty episodes, but now yes, sir, it's
I think she does. She just sits him in front of the computer and he can listen to his son ramble on and talk to famous people hi dad. How are you it's me mark your son, hello, hi, dad hi rosy, but anyway my point was young. Dad when he was in. It was an orthopedic surgeon and when I saw him in phoenix now I was talking What about the procedure my mother's, getting? on her neck, but my father used to do some of that surgery when he was, you know you at the top of his game, you're doing acts and knees, and next year legs hips They are my dowser just a hammer and saw a man here. But, but when I saw in phoenix I asked him about it. News like each is locked right in men tell tommy, the operation said it was pretty a pretty common, not along operation, your request It's gonna be a well oiled, neo painful. Tricky by, but it as well.
Operation, go simple stuff, simple stuff. The old man said Anne lot right in Dan explained to me in everything when I brought it up? I call on the other day. Decision was gone in ease like Ashby good. It should be as or what the postal he's guys just have a collar ike right right there, man, it was all right there, my dad, who is always great, to engage with medical problems, which is why, as I have explained before, I do have a history of her hypochondria was guys, like you know, can I get my dad's full attention dad I think I have cancer now you that ah at my arm. Hurts you I'll check it out. Bring come over here. We feel vila do other. Will we going and pullings answer, they do orthopedic so pull poland wiggle your arm hold it still. I desired. Over a poet how her when you did that it did not. Does it hurt? But you already are, I might add broke my leg and my foot? Do you know that yeah I dunno. If it was a, I wouldn't say it
for experimentation. Having resisted accident negligence, Here's here's how he broke my leg in fourth grade that all these stories, I think but maybe it'll make daddy? for you remember this hatless certain. Monsieur some memories. Remark with my audience: remember dad when we're skin and dad he's listening You remember dad. Will your skin and I had those cub co bindings, which was I to be the safest bindings, remember those cub coasts, but they get pop Often I was not having a fun day and kept complaining that my skis kept popping up and You tighten them up boy. You tie those bindings up dad! You remember this and the next I fell boom viral fracture on my tibia. I remember you said that pretty quickly you, like yup, as spiral action on the tv am, I will carry creek gets away. Who is dead? the fucking slope in a toboggan. Isn't it a toboggan? they distract me into, though, in this way the slides with this.
Patrol yeah. I was the guy in the stretcher. This dissuade stretcher going down put it in a split. They threw me the bat the blazer my old man did on the back of the pleasure with spent on. Goin down the mountain bouncing around in the back it up fuckin orange blazer was spent on a free we ve broken leg to we got to the hospital. The up that happened dad those good day. Remember that day, I'm Simon cut into funding to the ski time, but we to the hospital and guess who set my leg yup my dad had them either full leg cast all the way up to my hip, very difficult to pee very difficult to bathe itched, although classic plaster casts old school but long story short. I still walk funny But that's because my dad ran over my foot member dad that day, whereas it for summer school and ah
Yet we ve java me off, I was in the back seat, gave a kind of losing the phronsie were taken him somewhere. I guess he may be out in a. Why does get out for summer school, open the door on my legs. I return to get my books and you took off and the then that back we'll rolled over my foot and I was on the screaming, and then you backed back over it. And you know I was in trouble and cry I and screaming in the sea. And you think broken in then hospital in the accurate it, and it was like a pop like a fuckin. I get. So I got apple under their didn't, shatter but popped up yeah. I got news broken. I could tell by you face yet gerda yeah. So Because I didn't do any physical therapy, my right foot, kind wings out Burma where many dead, I'm ok, I'm alright, I'm in good shape, I'm in good shape There was no
we live and learn. We do things, we make mistakes, you didn't know, you know, you're gonna run me over and you didn't know that the buyer I would not release if you tighten them all the way, gus screw holding something in you didn't know. I'm not raymond right you didn't know right. You know, so look Abigail disney turned out to be pretty great conversation. I don't know what you're that cause. I watch the dock, our choice in the dark, but but you I'm talk, this hurt her my father was walt disney brother. She grew up disney and that's a pretty small group are I so was kind of weird. Spread the conversation around the issues but also round her upbringing was kind of great the american dream and other very tells, is now playing in theatres in his available on digital and man platforms, and you can go to can dream doc, dotcom defined, theatres near you. And this is me talking there abigail disney
There is a big difference with whom in a way tat. I think there's on her work and also you it has many shots yeah, but with film mere cost money you know and authoress digital. Its role in rome, role and role of rural riah role. Sure is somebody sneak something in there I mean that's the beauty of digital video, because you never know and the only and the guy who to be one of the main lobbyists for their and our aid requires an during break. He showed us that he could still do the splits, actually you had to have that you're never get out on the field. Well, that's that's! Humanizing! Exactly and occasionally you do want to humanize the people what that was for
armourer lies here. We have a lot of stuff within our people that we never went up using just it became it and fell belong. The way are we really the other great thing about digital, obviously, but also the weird thing about making choices in documentary here is that you know if you have an ideological through line that is being compromised, by the humanity in people. Exactly what you know, I don't I don't think of what would I do is ideological, so much as a spear sure sure so, yeah crazy here, not spiritual. You know, god he was but spiritual in the sense of like the spirit of the place and the spirit of the people, in the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish yeah that you find in people s unexpected ways or an you, follow that
right right about yeah about community human perseverance. You have a fight, yeah and an armor of light. What we were looking for was like are you willing to in good faith, come out of your little bunker? You know and just talk to me. That is because I was it was about an anti abortion minister, in writing my merrily and an end, but he was pro gun rights. While he was So he was, I mean the way the film stars. I picked up the phone and called bunch different guys who are pro life and that was hard work for me I said, look I believe you are in good faith. Believe what you believe. I believe what I believe were I googled each other. We can fight what if we chose not fight
what, if we chose, we just talked about the things that we share cause. I also think murderous bad here and you know- and so perhaps you have about one yeah exactly so, let's like choose to inhabit this alignment of what we share the growth in there. I ve really just live on roman it and he was just amazing the way he was willing to do that with me, and so I sort of downloaded to him like okay, so every life is sacred and will then like. Why did we take that duty to retreat out of self defence law I understand that right is so it no come like that's the most crazy out their aggressively pro death of that a lot of good lawyer? That's what I wanted to talk to about, and he sat in a kind of narrowed. His eyes, just like you did here am I am he said I have never thought about before really Could you so caught up yeah that's kind of the magic of just like going to
somebody you're not supposed to talk to you and Things you're not supposed to say yet, because everybody gets caught up in their belief system and there is a certain momentum to it that doesn't enable a lot of reflection or they don't take the time. I do it. My any highly aware of the people around you, who really there are consequences. You know right for right, saying something or or admitting you know you might be right about that, I so that's why you go quietly and just the two of you when you offer french it right and in those kind of nuts with those consequences are insulating yourself on a point of view with certain community of people has now become extreme yeah. Exactly so Not only do they see consequences, but they did register them is real. Now that you know it lest it now with the sort of bubble culture I mean when I raised some. So all
up to dollar from some in that minister, from armor of light rubbish egg, and I go from church to church far right wing, courteous and crossed the midwest which show the and then we'd stay there and talk and an eye was like a space alien because I would say I am a pro choice: feminist, all my adult life here, but I don't think you're crazy or bad here. Can we just talk here, and so there would happen these extraordinary conversations and for them it seemed crazy that I you know, I wasn't obvious murderer, didn't drink children's blood idea, the light in the end The in this awfulness than than I had a decent set of human values. I mean one of them rob said to me was the most surprising thing to me, you as I got to know you was how much you loved your children,
an accident, I can't get oh very bad, and so that's the kind of thing like if you go to crispy cream, but I only go to mcdonald. If you d know the way we're segregating now here, an end of that kind of amazing conversation that we had went right till the end of july, twenty sixteen and then it was like a hammer, came down right yeah travel residence gas than interest. His nomination, I mean honest later, people were sure that summer in vienna. We are talking about, was maybe tat, crews. Maybe it's my rubio. You know they were trying to figure it out, and then it was like the an edict came down I mean they, don't really have a pope, but there they have like a you guys they serve like a pope. In the end, the bunch of guys had a meeting and made a decision. This I was when they got. My pants was like when the in their even juggle community a year yeah, but ok. Oh going back to wait what this, sir, what this new doc is about
which is a family thing away, yeah, there's much and by you as we were coming in here. You said you that the new doc as the american dream and other fairytales, that's what the that's, what it's it's called. It's it's rooted in the the place dynamic and wage disparities disparity in the disney company and your disney. If I am- and you grew up around here- s idea- they'll California, after a lot of disney innuendo, yeah, there's tons of distant inclined, dahlia hat, why we left her right and anna was, I think, didn't it sort of come about. Wasn't the original disney studio in burbank right here. I parian rail of art over and over again exactly in those vinyl yeah exactly exactly and unfortunately I think it's a whole foods an hour or a gale since, oh there, you are right there, the studio how's that was where the studio ones, where hyperion and gun dale guido grub over a little more
the writer hill wise and several like a man, and then they went to bank and there still there on that lawton burbank, but they moved animation. Declined? L ABC there right off for a b c o you have an impatient glenville for law time and they had imaginary glenville cause. It was near caltech. Ok, that's were like they were training people almost imaginary was where they brought in people who are trained in engineering but use their imaginations fighter skull, and so they wanted people with physics, degrees and electric engineering degrees. That's where the audio animatronics came from I mean I'm remember walking through there is a child, the animatronics for the park, yeah yeah. I remember seeing that the wicked just head in the sand. Ball? The hologram will never watched them work out that a really gay, but this was but there is a whole different division around the film stuff right. Yeah and emma films were mostly on the lot over there in burbank here and they shot tons of
enough on that lot. Now you know they didn't like location, so your dad was Roy o disney. Now my grandmother is right. Oh my father is real. He my brother, is where a p, my nephew is your and your grandfather's there's walt your grandfather and walls that were the disney's whom built and complicated, and it was called the disney brothers studio affairs originally yeah, my grandfather like it either. Like I'm not drawing I'm not doing that stuff. So you know all I'll take care of the books I'll make sure the law is in order all that stuff. But you know you just go. Do your imagined it was the the the mad wizard. Yes, exactly like when you are growing up here I mean I have Imagine it was an all immersive disney experience all the time. Yeah, yes or no Why is it when you were a kid? Your beer, father, hadn't taken part?
was it not the company. My father always was part of the company was so my father came up and was an editor and he shot things and he was making films. Well my whole time growing up. If you watched on Sunday night and you saw like a story about a boy and his dog or a boy and his baby bear that got loose and he tamed him or something like that. That was my dad. He made me he made the the weekly disney movies for what was it called the world wonderful world of disney with the firework yeah that there you go, and that was the sound of little mark. You remember is like Sunday night yeah exactly. It was so fun didn't like that. You know once every year year and a half one of his would come on and we'd all sit around and we applaud come up yeah yeah. He made one. He made one about a peregrine falcon,
that that was the one tat we really fought with his father. This really proud of him for this area, because of did they were making a story about how this paragraph falcon cup sitting on her eggs and they would break in very tragic, and you know all the anthem more fighting and we are hopelessly was it was that it was an animated. The right nor losers live action. Ceremony was really interest in the wild life stuff and wildlife was very much part of what they were thinking about, what they needed to do in the nineteen sixty cents de since of Sunday night much of it was wild life, yet they they'd have an area right and that we would see him level would often doing right. Mystery, humbird sat down is actually an egg broke, and so the narration is ddt, because de the egg broke and I guess union carbide was one of the sponsors, and so my grandfather has varied out, get say union carbide so
Haiti that the bird was consuming was creating fragile eggs yeah. Then that's the huge part of the story of what the white raptors almost disappeared, peered from the united states, and so he real name was dialogue to say something like pesticides. So an but it got through in years later, people at the audubon society in this big award, because, like most of them, had seen that his children and most of them had said nope we're not letting the paragraph falcon disappear. I love that. Because you never know this was so great about making a film and doing it like its integrity is like you, don't know what kid is saying it and changing that is an interest, message, because you know all kids were taking in disney in some way and It was a sort of a, I think that it was in part of the consolidated vision of of did
and that your dad just got committed to this idea and planted these seeds yeah yeah, and then he like so here No, the seeds used restoring them out. There are child flower and with such a rare thing for deciding to do that. Well, yeah I know. I think maybe when they start the one for worlders disney, like they were thinking of this vertical integration and gm and geo synergy, and all the rest of that that came in the areas with the new leadership and sure and a new ideology about business. I mean that oh hardly what the film is about is that idea ology about business, corporate persons radically aimed at you right, and I think that there are some good information there but like when you were a kid. So it's it's with. I mean the disney operation starts with the movies and then in a wall. Designs is strange world. Yes exactly.
Actually so there's the little animated. Seven minutes shorts right, that's where he started: steamboat www, exactly a man and milk. Everybody was turning out. Those things sure any had a hit with this thing called Oswald the lucky rabbit, but he hadn't nailed down the copyright and so it was taken from him by his distributor s parlour reason my grandfather's important because he was Ok, you're, not now that may figure, may figured out licensing, because licensing was massive rights of a sudden little mickey mouse toys and the beginnings of the watches, and things like that are happening so all hook to income streams, the the movie was crazy to make a whole feature length. Film I mean because like can you imagine, every single frame was hands drawn hand painted multiple layers cause he invented multi plainer camera to give the sense of three dimensions invent that shit. So you know it's kind of amazing, my father's. What
nineteen thirty, there were very, very successful at that point. She said I really wasn't sure when our next meal was coming from really big as a reminder that my grandmother- oh yes, she said every single thing that they may they ploughed right back into the company and so for the first thirty years it was just risk risk risk, risk and somehow my grandfather was hung for that right being misled, we'll guy he was and thank god. Yet there was a sensible guy there because they thought it would have able to survive on was just kind of chaotic, yeah genius. Yes, let's exam right. I mean that which is not that you didn't have a business sense or whatever, but he wasn't like planning that I will have this empire in the driving will be connected. He was really driven by the creativity, what younger people put that on him, you know cause like even me when I saw him I producer my you're gonna find of what was anti semitic,
producer- was he kind of said. Why think? What was a a kind of a premium. Conservative and whatever was part of that ideology was probably there, but he was not any sort of bid, fabulous story, he well he he bordered on rapid fascism and my grandfather border line right, but rather an end, and you can go back and you can find like the original three pigs. Have you received not the three little pigs picture. So the original three little pigs movie is was one of their service. I think with sixty. Cynthia was a bit of it, pushing an experiment, and the original big bad wolf is the peddler so I can remember the aim that they were not shy about delving into the stereotypes if it served them or they thought it was them to do so in and they got bad. If you look at dumbo in the crows one of those croesus Jim crow right so you know and then, when they made.
I'm sorry, the south look people from the indelibly c p came refer the studio that please don't do it. This way. Please talk to us here, I'll robeson turned down the part I mean so they knew they were making It's something I mainly that sort of the argument is that, like that, disneyland in and of itself in its enclosed way as some sort of american fascist fantasy. Well, yeah, that's what it is I mean it is, and it isn't the problem. The thing is that, like I think what they were. They were men of their time and that's not an excuse right to two too I give a shit that the indelibly cp says this is these are the ways in which the stars are usually don't do that voice was out there that I wasn't there here. It wasn't like all oaks. We didn't know that this would be horrible. They
when you re I made on the sunny south is fifty. I want to say fifty eight fifty four were maybe but like ok, we ve got a civil rights. Movement are happening, you know their cause, the quences and- and they have it an idea of how the world worked right in- the idea of how the world worked, sadly, that involved people remaining in their places? I think that for them it was more a question of order. Then superiority or anything like that way. I don't? U s interests, Assyria and and and want when he built disneyland. I mean what most interesting things to me about the places how unconscious you are of, where you are once you're there. Yet even like I mean I've been there, I was there when I was a kid I think I've been there's an adult may be twice cadena people that I've been young dating who were fixated on. It tell me that wasn't a deal breaker I mean no, I ever united odd to me all is white. When there are grown up throughout accede on this new idea, I'm not sure what it was about. But when I went back
You, do feel you're gonna fascinated by the design of it that how effective you are in a different world fairly quickly. Well, the very the very first thing, the very most important part of the design is this huge and on earth? Would work, berm around the park year round and it's planted and landscaped, and everything like that. So you're not even conscious you're going through something the barrier here when you walk in through the gate, very subtle, but it it grows. It'll. So you didn't see the time so the building around you is quite remarkable, nationally piece design, and that was very, very conscious. This is this is a perfect and this is all all perfect world right, an end. So there's theirs there's a benign and passive prejudice and then there's active and malign. Prejudice, that's how I devoted my head and much more disneyland is the benign and passive kind in the sense that, like I'm, going to replicate everything good, I remember about my midwest upbringing and
and so like here's, this main street- and these are the barbershop. Court tread and it's all just very perfect, and so When we decided in the field to kind of bring race up, it honestly feels impertinent. It feels like well what is that got to do with anything? You know, there's no nothing happening here, but of the things happening there by design and in the early days, part of that whole barbershop, quartet, routine and whatever is answer. My mafia, singing and dancing and tap dancing, ino ends, and so they were, they were tapping into. Stereotypes when it helped them to advance a narrative, because they saw the place as a narrative, but a place right in this and an end, and that also reflected some of the like stories of the films were tat town I mean exactly in, but by one we're a kid. You know you're in gay, how many cousins and stuff
how many disney's were out? What's the extended disney family, it's it's not as big as you would imagine all had two daughters there and his first. Diane, married and had I think, HIV I thought there were a lot of kids here, an arm chair and had three children, india, on an end. So obviously we were, as cousins were, all lots of around the same age. We saw a lot of them. Then there was. Falling out my father's. The child, then there's the four of us after walter, grandfather, kind of stepped in and help finnish disney world- and you know and then divers suddenly, almost immediately afterwards and then there Some leadership. I'm question and so there was a really rivalry right, the nephew, the son in law, and it was this classic patriarchal set up under the sun yeah, and so there was a kind of a rivalry. Feelings got really
emerged that it was really unfortunate and very personal. But when you all were kids, y'all at work hung out and we loved each other. Did everybody live? What was the big family house was walt's house, This house was in homely pills, so once once things got rough between my dad and are cousin here, that we just stop seeing each other just heartbreaking bad. I hated that so we never really saw them and weaker and to look lake, which is slightly maritime area yeah, that's it and that so you just right across town Yang. It's in your all and allay it's kind of truly in the sand like where so once you kind of growth, in your disney, and you know your vested yet in the company in many ways and yeah when you start outside of your I've had experience in the insulated nature of of being privy to all this the match, I mean what
do with your life now what's here, well. That is the question of my life right. What do you do with your life? Because you know it feels like their two options. What is too you're back run, run run. Never are you running around? Do you try and acting? I mean what do you you know I well. I went off to college and I started to study english literature and just thought the best thing ever yell and so from there. I went on to get a phd and I had settled in new york, and so I stayed in new york and on being in new york was great because I just I know really like hell. I very much agree. I loved the city for your other siblings data, yeah yeah and an eye, and I just dream to being in a different kind of a place, and there was something about new york. Everybody bumping into each other s kind of like I'm here the cars
going by over there. You don't sure, is a law. How, but how deep was the universe reserve? Was it rebellious? Yes, I do, really ought to tell you that I was but I mean you, I mean you know, because it just means something. The brainwashing of of childhood. In the disney family outside of the park and everything else. I mean that's what that's a lot It's not just sort of like my parents are conservative. It's like yeah. We are the ones that that that disney there are no other. There are no other disney's. You know like if you're related to the kennedys, you know just disappear in the world, but don't get to do that and so it you know. I lied a lot when people would ask if I was related, then once my dad was standing behind me and he looked so much like,
well here, I am somebody said if I owe you related and I was like no and he just dissolved in laughter standing right behind me, but but not unlike the kennedys. It doesn't always go well for canada. You know he doesn't think it always goes well for just know. That's what I'm saying like you just said like you, that Kennedy's can go off and do other things. They can't really that's no, they always turn up candidature tossing the football well your scheme here, but I guess it was worth their tragedies within the family and nothing in that awaiting kennedy asked like that. We need new drugs or accident is what we have our share of drug matures happen. I now all of us I mean- and I think if you talk dragon addiction and all that kind of thing in any family. These resources there. Actually, it's harder to get sober,
charter to get so when you have money. When you have money here, you know it's it's it's like it, so hard vineyard abjectly poor and you have to go back to the same neighborhood with no support now the right man, it's so hard when you're like trapped if the family can't really get out of it, because you rely on it for your money, everybody's telling ye are brilliant, smart and perfect and run the world and and and I always thought it was so important with betty for it when she went to the naval huh, but I'll there was such a thing is betty ford and they put her through the rehab programme. The first thing they do. Was now scrub the toilet and she was like I'm, the first lady of knights, carbonated, rather an and, of course, that immediately she got it. It was like. Oh yeah, that's right. I use a toilet. I should to rattle describe, as you know in and the whole thing like you're, not too good to scrap the toilet rank is like one of them. First, most important things about getting so version
in a regular member of the human race. Everyone here among workers, yet adverse and an wealthy, especially wealthy men, have a very hard I'm getting their yeah. You seem to be walking passionately about this as its from experience of course. Of course, mrs aubert, with I'm, I'm not I'm complex, I'll. Just say that I'm very allowed on and- and I read those as well yeah- it's it's like her little memoir. I can't remember what it's called it's fascinating book. It really is cause. I can picture all these nicely. He's out in the kitchen drinking coffee, while their men are over there and somehow it's all their problem, and it's all about them and, like you know, I can see how else would come out of those told me a brilliant thing that really stuck with me. I got a long time sober and I've done. My share of you know Al Anon work as well, but someone said to me
the difference between like something like eighty away and alan on is that our olenin was written for for people who want to stay We have really interesting distinction is a really interesting distinction and, like you know, if it's your parents, you know their right like yeah. I guess the option is not to stay, but it's a pretty that's pretty nuclear option. Sure but I mean reaches its framing, that the kind of detachment thing yeah so, but you go to new york and you go to yale was so terms of like how screwed up was your brain around cause? What year is that I mean the whole, seventy aids, ok, yeah, so its weight or so? How did you fair I mean you're a little older than me, but not much, but we were not really kind of that cognizant in this. Exceeds one culture really started shift, but did you did you have any sense of what was going out? The company then like when there was no actual you radical,
division going on everywhere and nasty were just sort of physical right cause disney's this crazy thing. Where and one of its choice is there any symmetric? Is there they are in the late sixties, myths, seventies and they still haven't huh er du jeu yeah. I mean like era in the film business and you don't I mean you ought be working hard not to hire jewish people, so so so that's there, and that was the political environment. I was raised in two with such as nobody said, o jews, bad in europe with the irish people, but same time. It wasn't like the Earl there was there. What sort of how you know it's? Like a fog, the house, you know, but I don't, I buy the oligarchy, but there are also those people within the business, and I imagine that was really the issue where they were like you know. The Jews can have everything it will I mean like. Are you not to look like the country club over there and I like it, was a sort of in reaction to the ally country clodagh with was didn't have to
then at right right, because they they didn't want juicy and so but so riverside was set up, and that was for movie people, and that was a way of saying juice can come to the club suit. The local lake was ok We want movie people, but no Jews area, I was looking that wasn't the legs I country club, which is bizarre right, so a little right wing enclaves, sort of forms into legal aid, and so you have your being crosbie in your bob hope and people like their ends. We actually had around that lake had like Amelia erhard, double seat fields. I mean you're crazy room at lake, but but really in fact that country club, as it were on www, ended what reason, research and finally late. I should have liked the rumours they had like these ducks on the lake? No, what am I saying they have swans on and She feels parent leads to get just completely lit and come out with a shock.
That's quite a history, but but You know in the sixties I mean that was around the time. More than wonderful for disney disney was on one. Did your dad make the the fell one, So he made that in the seventies Michael the father die, so he must have made that in the sixties cause my grandfather died in nineteen. Seventy one, my dad's stay at the company till seventy eight, so I kept doing that and then he ended up leaving because he was really kind of war. And being treated. He felt really badly. He went off on his own and started them. Some money and he made his own documentary and doing other things well. That is aid on the board. Ok, and what was his position that the company, when he left? Ah here, I think head of sixteen millimeter protocol getting allows run in a voice, and it was wrong miller mark our cousins, husband and the folks that sort of supported run so you you, you got a yell, you get your phd and then what is your life on
teaching a little bit, but by then yards yeah a minute by then I've has started having children. So I just sort of like hunkered down, my children and did a lot of non profit work, yeah. Okay, so that was where my political life was, it started there and what it was all of it. Do you find a a action to guess the various to finish, yeah I mean I, I definitely did the predictable thing where a few say right also left, as you say, upside down. I did that through my twenties and into my thirties, but the time I got into my thirty, so they had started working like these small women's round age ever say like gonna, want the money now I did say: shouldn't want the money right, but a, but I had to tell myself the truth. You not honestly this little bit of a hot house flower problem, you dont know for sure you can. You can swim unless but you know I mean, and so I came riding edge of giving it all away more than one
then chickened out here and I'm I you know, I hate that about myself I probably should have, but at the same time there was so much I could see that I could do that seemed good, but yeah that seemed to be the the right shift too. I you know I I imagine, like you know, disinherit in yourself or or or or dumping your stock options. You know wade. Would The natural kind of immature rebellion right right now to follow through where there are a great people who do that and have done it and none chuck comments from the hormone family. Didier m is a really great advocate Four inequality I mean against any could he and and he runs inequality. Dot org is from hormel milk meat. And he does beside now. I don't want it and lived happily ever after vertically. Rhine puts you
even if it was similar to your situation with thinking tat, be an animal rights active yet hates exactly what light by a. But were you at a different time here, among these among makin billionaire family, the billionaire class? I have. I have known those folks and hidden among them like either because they were there where I went to school or once I started getting active in on in giving money away. We read the daughters of families, like this sure and daughters are different. It's a different thing to be woman in a family like that, but you, but you ve, found people you related to yeah. I was married. I mean that saved me if I hadn't. I think I would like to remind well not to name names, but there are people from pretty prominent families who, like women, it see, you're not expect to take over, you know like they look at you and go. Oh look an extra. You know an end so that there's a mercy and that right, because this, like oh nobody, expects anything of me. So I can
kind of do what I want. I think it's a little harder on the men, because it's a little bit like this toadstool they grow up under, oh god, I've gotta do that and I ve got to do it better I've gotta eat a sort of evolve into a leader of some exactly unlike what, if that's not what you were gonna be, and any become a gigantic, arises, a lot of people, a lot of people to use that path or fall in Japan. So for me there was a little bit of freedom in it, and so did a lot of like I went onto boards and help raise money, and I figured out great making and philanthropy and foundations, is what your kids would your husband actually he's writer you don't used over them, yeah pretty no amazing from nineteen. Seventy nine! Well, that's crazy! Cried for you there's a little a four year oswald in the middle. There would not have your office for using a resolute aware. Yeah yeah, I remember accurately found that we find our way back. That's a remedy for kids, and
spectacular, and I chalk a lot of that up to be new york, where I mean it, benny year, there would have been like. Oh voters opening ride down parker. Oh, there is a new movie, unlike the temptation, to go and do that and stay in the front and goings that group with that they have kids in its or again it's ok, we can go to disease while I mean, like they dont, do it as much as all that carried out, but the others that are you. I mean she's yeah? Exactly and then there's things like private aeroplanes, which are I you know, I came to believe after using them for a while a kind of bad for you, none, so mind, yeah there there their bad for you, spirit, their territories and the only airplane, knowing my father is only airplane. Seven. Thirty seven! wow. I will begin by looking imagined. I know like that
I didn't know there was one time when I was flying home because I needed to get home and I was there at a meeting with the family and the business and everything, and I am the only person, Seven thirty, seven with a queen size beds, that has a giant seat belts like that the foia requires you, put this giant seatbelt and coincide with ama of people, bringing me things. You know, and I have really lowbrow tastes. I want diet, coke and french onion dip, lay's, potato chips and it just all in waterford crystal or the rest of it, and that was- the trip where I thought I just know, how will you know I was in my third- may I would love to tell you. I was eighty that I just that someone or install it me a while to get that much principle. It takes a while it's like making you way out of the forest. You know you have to part this. You know, curtain of fines and go through it and scary and figure out, like you know how I imagine that there's a guy, driven Ellen and of philanthropy. In an activism
and that at some point, if that's what you're doing you realise at its its reaction bay? Yes, sir to actually walk the walk and own yourself in in that in activism and that's a different thing tat. It takes a lot of time. I think guilt as much maligned state of mind. I don't I don't actually is what was all that it is reactive and no, no I mean I think you do drives a tremendous amount. Will count there'll be no chair, exactly that. Not everybody that servers, ornamented or christian right exactly exactly but like what you want to do is move past the reaction to some like justice. You know and charities that justice is not. Now, then, you get into a more jewish element, the old school thinking where you know too, to urge you truly have concern for those in need and an end to sort of bring the underclass up to our inga. I yeah I mean it's. Aids
It's a hell of a life in terms of trying to make as it be so easy, mentally or emotional. Your spiritually to just leave your rich white who will reach people the people doing most of the chariot planned in the world are really poorly prepared for genuine justice by just being rich workers. People to actually do the chaired. Yes, what there's that, but our land or be consolidated, so imagine here not taught to listen to people you're, not to shut up and just hear somebody else's point of view, and thinking about the empathy gets a bit a work out when you have money, because you can separate yourself from people you can look at a distance and aggression or any forget about it. What it hurts like like I worthy rich person. You knew who had to stand in line much longer than they really wanted to stand in life. That's actually apply full importance. Human
Sperience rioting landing in line is everywhere all my lingered in this line, and I got your earlier when he seventh, so I may be the twenty seven person, regardless of how important I think I am that is fucking You see, I get frustrated like it. You know, like I've, earned some money over time, and now that I have a little money. I do always generally one I'm in a line. Think Is there no way I can use its launch in there? Isn't there a prior to guy? I call him exactly at melick your lot with. If you grow up in your immersed, in that it really hard not to wonder like, isn't there a private edge, should I go rather side, there is surely almost always is yeah there. Almost always is that's why he private airplanes, more than anything certain words, so that was your real kind of white light moment the airplane? Well, what do you know it there's, no pity big enough to get you.
It to humanity, may you know an end like cause. This is like being being raised with all these resources makes you different, rear, F, Scott Fitzgerald said famously said: the richer different, not because their born different, but because the come different because there Circumstances are so changed just by money, because this is a highly class, the fine society, one percent, when you really think about now with the disparity in an and how its picture is like, as I know, now I know peers of mine who work or fuckin comics, who, like a hundred million, that yes right so so all of a sudden you know there they enter that world then, and others more people in that work. I mean there is obviously the richie richest of the rich, but there is a class of people within the in the one percent is probably three percent now yeah yeah, you know the thing is that actually it's still only one percent and less than one percent really on its that there are more famous people in it.
Because of the way media pace. So tat s the thing and see you ve heard of more of them right on, but but I guess what I'm saying is that that rarefied life is They can only hang out with each other and they you know it's, you can no longer you don't functioning you're, not part of the the real world. So to speak, though, the first lesson when you get to college is you you can't talk about your life when everybody else's talk about their lives on, because there are like I'm a guy. You know I don't have enough money to pay for the bears this year and, like everybody's, that's what people get together. Talk about wainwright college and design of lichen rural yeah. Well is the first time and spoken: you never forget it so you'd know to shut up, because- and this is why a lot people like being go, they dress,
I shared you now. I will take a cab and get out ten blocks before her was you know and they were living a hovel. I knew how to pretend you sort of your tourist and renew no, but you know that if the long, as you know, there's a theirs is safety button that you could push sure eve that reality then you're not in that real right, but but there I think there is it's not totally without burnished termer like you, you want to have that experience, but you can't have it genuinely right exactly so. You prefer your kid to have that in genuine experience, iron and yet we prefer them want that experience. God knows then than I have also seen. Kids respond really differently, and they learn a lot. You know daughter worked for a while a strict club in new orleans on bourbon street. Knowing you know these
called hand grenade out onto the sidewalk and she got her experience, but I was at her rebellion drawers. Of course, funny you went to yale to rebalance she's Ivan Berbeus, reacting giant drinks. We all find our way and cheese. She came back around she's a. Why would she lay back around? She was, but she has grown into a spectacular even going around good she's a book coming out next year. Oh about what- about her life, really dressing she's, a very interesting kid. With a menu the, but she is well she thirty one car kitchen, one with the book about it's. It's like a series. Personal essays about identity, ochre and it being a knowing you're a disney. She doesn't have his last name, but knowing you're a disney and and and people knowing you're your disney and like. Where do you find yourself in all that, and and how do you situate yourself, allow the things I struggle with how you sensuous yourself, relative yourself relative to will you notice,
really really chequered history around race and class in the rest of it and like what? Where Where am I in all this? Well, that's! What's so you were doing nonprofit work, but when did you step into the media or part of it, the into film I mean and what what was really the ear ear you're evolution through profit into actual active right. Will my first of all, I you know, I just really wanted to be with actual people soldier. I started work with the single the new york women's foundation, which just was just freaking g because we were crossed ass in so you were working peer to peer with people that mostly would never know or otherwise and I'd glass programmes they meet. The people were doing the work near of gluing, this city, together, as in the eighties when it was not glued together, very well unlikely, tended to be
women almost always they intended to be won over and over again, I met these amazing women who wheedle was how much less than I ever had mean we're doing miraculous things, so I developed a belief system about how it works, and so years later, I didn't want to do. Media I didn't want to do film felt like a trap door. I don't wanna step on beer. But I was in liberia years later, cassettes things developed further and further afield. In two thousand. Since I went to liberia- and I heard this remarkable story about what the it had done there and like all that time, having known the kind of women who do this kind of thing, I knew it was true, even though nobody had reported on it and basically the muslim and the christian women had gotten together across their lines. They had formed a peace movement, nonviolent later and they forced peace talks. They have sex strike, heartless party, m m, they surrounded the these talks that eventually happened when they fell apart and they locked arms and they held
everybody in the building hostage, and you know they forced a peace agreement, that's an amazing thing. No newspaper wrote about and I came home. Because I know enough about women, austria. Now we fucking disappear area fucking time the water closes over our heads as we think, and it's like we were never there and I was like dammit no, and that was the first time I ever made was like the there's no way raise Adele back to her husband and so watch it. Please watch ok, now anymore, you said I produced. But but it was the director nine made the film together area yeah, and it was my first experience and, like I flying over there with a crew to shoot, and I was soon hervis. I thought what am I doing may be imagined this leo. Do I think I am that sends goes through my lot here. Am I swear to god my foot at the tarmac in monrovia, and I thought I know exactly how to do this
yeah, I knew it yeah I mean to the tips of my toes and like I have not looked back since then. It occurred and then the next movie was when we talked about the beginning, yeah, actually, no because pray, the devil back to hell, turned into a series for pbs and the morn piece, and we made five films and five settings about how war plays out differently in the twentieth century, twenty first century in relation for women. Okay and the theory was basically all more films go with John wayne. The camera is in John wayne said, and what, if you put the camera, a woman's had how it feels and looked different, and it is a very different phenomenon. If you look at a throng size are you are you in any way engaged with this ukrainian conflict? Oh yeah, so the woman in pray, the devil back to hell, went on to win the nobel peace prize in two thousand and eleven, so yeah awesome and numb she's been engaged with women in ukraine. So I'm hearing a lot from her and she's. She has so the women who won the nobel peace prize has sent in working with the ukrainian women a lot their very interesting
that you know most of the tram drivers are women and they have never stopped stopped driving in spite of everything in there. I don't know something like twenty percent, which is the highest percentage and combat history of women and combat it's it's a very interesting, story, it's very different from what we are talking about back la many eleven yeah. Well, sir, you so this has been sorted the through. I was primarily women's issues. Initially, that's how I got started and not to tell you the truth. The armor of light one is a little bit of a women's sure it's all made from a women's point of view, in the sense that I know, conservative women I was raised by foolish lovely, basically an end concerning women. Hey women, they really eight women- they trust them. They don't want to talk. I thought you can see that if you could move concerning women to think differently about guns, how would they move their families behave differently?
about on the issue and how they vote differently. So that was the thesis, and I thought I need a man to talk to them cause. They won't listen to a woman right, so you got that guy yeah. Yeah yeah. I assume the right guy point. What you were going to turn them around here is more of the right guy now and then he was there. I mean he's he's like basically completely switched. I overshot away overshot with him. Is writing essays about how asian overturn reverses weight and workers His name is rob shank is a really interesting guy super you return him around. I didn't mean to worry about that. That's that's the intend that was it like. You got one truth be told her, the very very beginning. That was my fantasy. You don't turn him around, but then I thought all asleep we could all use a little bit of this who rely think I am you know, The grown man is responsible for his moral imagination. I- and I why do I think mine is any better than his sure, let's just like, be and like
We offer each other love and friendship and see what happens, and that's literally how that happened. Well, congratulations on that. I did it yeah so How do you what what? Why was this the time? Because it interesting that in this new film, which I watched, the american dream and other fairytales, that. Yeah. You lay out. Of disney and your relationship with disney as a disney- and we ve talked about a fairly thoroughly here, but that's not necessarily that's just to sort of define who you are coming into something this is about waste parity and anne and labour and an unfair pay and practice, and I guess bye, bye, sort of digging in with disney thing in focusing on disney. You can talk too much the issue now, as you said, with the the company in the early eighties after your father left
and your grandfather in it? They were of dead. This is your your cousins husband that corporate cultures did to shift. I think you do a good job in showing that there was kind of almost evangelical. Around remark, it yeah that that big infused in the culture gang across the board and in really paying for that now away because, like you evolved. He wants it didn't work out for enough meal people that they, except that they may have been wrong about free market capitalism. So now we ve shifted in and into a sort of severely fascist, grievance that's misdirected, that's exactly that's exactly how I see a two year. I mean we, we one other thanks things. That's hard to grasp is that that there was a plan you know, and then people made this happened between us. So we refer
to the power memo PAMELA. The power memo is something I was obsessed with. When I was it air america, because no one knew about it, and this was really something that this defines publican ism in a way conservative economics, but but really what it was like is that they felt so threatened by the sixties that There was a moment there were there, like. You, have this kid tip and capital some could lose the socialist exactly and we can never let that happen. Yes, ever exactly that what power the power memoirs about at any since it out to the chamber of commerce, is that was at exactly exactly so any and became a springboard justice, not not, incidentally, but no sir, I was raised in a very conservative household and in fact mother. Sight of family was more conservative that my father's side, so these were people who truly truly truly believed in his free market idea. Partly it was more. Cover that decides
yeah that will free markets do the best and everybody does as well as can be expected in any society under a free market. So we really throw I end, but the other thing was the wrong people were trying to run the show you know always. I was going to happen and also like you know. It's weird is about the free market idea. Crashing is now we just have a nation of fuckin. Drifters can believe that you by any means necessary as you get away with acts of god. Yes, yes, that's why I call it the us. Well, if of america, that's, like wit, that's because, like I was there in nineteen, eighty seven when gordon geckos said greet his girl and he's the villain of the movie, and I saw people in the theater go bananas applauding and that was milton friedman, told trip yet well. In that case, from I ran around we friedman lived, I ran, and by the way is so did Alan Greenspan who right who was
as a little acolytes, what are harassed LEO year, rouse the chicago sclerosis in and others that the higher can on measly arrest them. There is a whole set and by the way right when people are once again reading on me, said hyrcanus and those and so again, once again picking up those books and talking want. They want a new intellectual class nor around these fellows go ideas that have caused this cancer right and an and the idea, I actually what I meant when I said the wrong people were running the show was there is an idea among people who are wealthy and powerful that, you're, not while the powerful it's because you're fucking idiot, etc and so why would let you run the country democracy sucks? I mean I've had that said to me by relatives who are free market capitalist purist who said
getting a cease kind of a bad idea, but it becomes very clear in that congressional when you spoke to congress that what was at panel exactly that, what was it finance committee fires Khamenei panel in that congressmen from from Indiana the one he said here. Yet this is social as yet is, you know that whole idea, it's become so clear now that there are parts of corporate interests yeah, it's so clear. So it's not even a philosophical notion its. It is said that most politicians are craven hacks, who were who are easily sold out. I mean their functioning in a very broken system and basically now well, all they have is like a set of clubs. You know and, like all use the socialism club on this lady and I use the marxism yet my own yeah exactly I mean that and they have not a variable.
I would say most of them not a very well developed intellectuals, system and and they're. Not thinking about the word. Socialism is having anything more than a single. It's like a bucket, you know of a word and everything think we have functioning socialism within the EU. I presume this country that much of these older people rang with it whether its medicare social security, they they all by way of corporate socialism, which ended up at my film here. The two I mean we monuments, scratched the surface on anaheim and its relationship to the walt disney company and become was yet you know, but up five hundred million dollar bond here, in nineteen ninety six if they are still paying off, and there is a law that says that any surplus in the government's budget has to go to pay that bond down there not allowed to use the surplus on the fire department or the education barbarity thing else. It must pay at mondo, sir disney owns the town yeah, so
people of anaheim took them and they a dollar a year, and yet they own the departing for the parking structural and when that bond is finished and that is paid down to disney owns it. What what what deal on earth, would you ever sign that favoured the other side that egregiously, you would ever where they handle them on the tourism they saw them on the economic damage. They also pass a law saying we indemnify you against any future tax on emission, so late, where's the benefit to an eye, but this was not your grandfather's disney. No, I I will say he was a very good the guy around florida because it like they bought that land in anaheim. They built the park there and then- in italy. There was all this stuff around. It may be limited limited. The square footage and that an anaheim is as a business proposition is a square foot each problem here? How do you maximize revenues out of that? very limited thing, so they bought in
They still only use like forty percent of the land in orlando that they bought. They bought so much land area, and then they went on government or they have like a housing community their exactly so that so they went to the government said. Give us everything we want. Please we want our own fire department, our employees, sperm, our own water and sanitation, everything. So it's almost like in Were there it's like a state within a state, because of how much the government was just happy to hand them over anything. Wasn't where conflict recently with really great yeah santas, where we heard about it so really creek is what is called the special status that doesn't have. You supplies us what's really interesting about it and all these tax, and buddy assumes it benefits disney, but actually, as its worked out at saved or lando a lot of money and having to police and send fired parliament hussy and it well a benefiting or led her to the tune of something like a billion dollars a year and ice
I think accompany shouldn't. Have that kind of autonomy? I mean they have their own police department. It just seems, like a corporate police department, doesn't make me comfortable, so I think we should have a conversation about how appropriate really creatures- and that was completely my grandfather's in dutch and beer, but dissent as I think, acted, really rashly and illicit taken away and didn't think it through and really under our letter, which I would like you to know, shit is going on quietly because, like you see a new story in its up here and it disappears from view as allow you guys got it s already got his talking point. It's probably you know we're Lando your pushed back and look, no I'm sure disney went were hat in hand said. What can we do to make you happy? Mr dos santos? really tell us how to make you happy norms, disney, eight shed area for them, yeah but get all this getting to the point that you know you focus on specifically what they call the
the cast members of disney in these. Are people yawning torreon staff- these are people- you know who who You set the park up overnight there, their people that work in all different positions in the park who org were really being underpaid, do not have access to of care- are not unlike many people in in these positions in in corporate structures and a there's, no union that that functions properly you know within it. And so you personal by making it disney, but the stories we all their right, exactly I mean the thing is personal cause it. It is personal because he's a person's right. These are all surely ball living lives, human beings and, like we leave that out of the equation, whom we have these, but it was interesting that you know it was opened the way to frame it with your own sort of moral a base, and then you trying to
reach out to tat with eager whose, knowing that so the Jews differentially got disney? Who but a couple of issues having yet but buddy? Eight, because you have no, you don't sit on the board. You not you. You know you just to her a ina as what it was is it your thought, called amazon cold. I know I don't even really is benny shares. This must be, but, but you just reached out as a person. Yes, exactly name disney. Yes, who happened to have bob's email like where the magic power that I didn't ask for so so yeah? Basically, I I'll tell you I witnessed it. I witnessed the change happen in front of my eyes, because I, as it is. My grandfather was super conservative and anti union and the rest of it. He was like this decent man, he was so warm. He was so genuine, and so when would walking across the board. That's not a granddaughter.
I I actually I actually have tested. I know people who do it still here who will say the same thing: it's not just an imaginary thing and I would walk into the park with him and like Come in through the cast memory entrance and people come up to him, a calm roy and would remember their names and he would ask about their family, something like it really community amazing. I waited an end. He did seem to believe. As far as I can tell the ino eat. What, with the thing is with capitalism. One is working. Well, is people making money and having lives. That was that was passed of one of his concerns as a person I other middle class was invented exactly so. It was like you know you pay them enough, they can buy house. There are these government subsidies helping them do all these things, but nevertheless it mattered to him that people could re children and get healthcare and all the rest that an and eaten up, the soil with time, because it's really important to me, it says,
so much about the difference of the place where now he used to pick up garbage when you walk in the park and it s kind of a famous thing at this name is one of the first things you learn is that you pick up garbage. I don't care if your manager whatever- and I asked him about it, and he, said I want people to know nobody too, to pick up the pieces of no matter who we as an end, that if you think contemporary ceo and how they roll and how they walk into spaces and how they, how they see themselves here and how we look at them, put them on magazine so forth, issues in conceive, bull, that they would bend over a pick up a piece of garbage and so in some ways we have and we have taken this class of people and we given them like supernatural status, which is not who they are and not what they had an handing them over. This that they have such special skills that no one could possibly do their job. Campi, replace that's how we
If I giving them these ridiculous payday sneer and asleep, I have no problem with the person having sixty five million dollars. You really don't fear but like at the same company. They can't put food on the table that doesn't feel run the back of people who are living in tents and and have no sort of safety net. At all, I have, and I have in the business press, I have one set of people who call me and ask me to talk about ceo pay and a totally different set people who call me and asked me to talk about the pay for the workers where those different people as we have not seen them as working at the same enterprise and that's the problem an area which is in the fact that eiger pulled out right before the pandemic and got his big boxes sixty five million parachute, primarily because of the negotiating the fox deal. I imagine you are right came a billion our during the pandemic. From from the money he d scrutiny of the all of the different payday seed had over the years,
that's a partly caused disney prices went crazy, but also, why did this prices go crazy? Nobody could get into the park, it's just, not rational. Not we keep being told that the stock. Why is rational india, because disney plus was doing so well and so every was like a great streaming- is now very home here. Everyone to home watching and signing up and no one's going to the park, and meanwhile you ve got all the will that worked at the park, furrowed bordering on home, was, if not allies with families on the street yeah with no no one, It was interesting, as you did talk to a woman who worked there for forty seven years, that you saw the arc of that change. The let's make clear that they They sent word to furlough you and you go ahead and you sign up for unemployment bought in the back every single day of our lives. Up until this point, we ve been fighting not to have to pay taxes to the state that now we will have to pay you unemployment, I think about that, like we have been trying to
disable and and and and deconstruct and and wither the state away as active lobbyists, but the second that that it's there's trouble it was like. Oh, the state will pay for that. I mean It's it's! It tells you that that the only ideology really actually is the self in and, unfortunately, corporation has itself, which is this collected. Brain of of people the top, and they are they share. A set of ideologies that are incredibly poisonous. And whereas the at some, with that a sense of that the immorality of that they it seems such a simple thing. It's like you, have all this fuckin money. You what you can do with all this money. Why can't you just take care of this group of flow, but here think they don't have a lot of money lying around, so that what is most profitable years in
st going into the pandemic, that I met eight years up to the pandemic, they spent and I'm gonna get the number wrong, but I think it's over eight billion dollars of free cashflow on share by backs share by baxter met then Think about the associate by back was illegal in the early nineties eighties and it was considered unethical for many many years, but their standard now and basically that the company and looks at its share price a hassle of cash lying around says. Well, let's, just buys shares. We don't care if the prices high, like what's rational, do with money and accompany it. You know till the share price drops, if you don't pay dollar for it, but nevertheless They buy their shares that pumps, the price up which offers are you to the shareholders, and so theoretically, your rewarding your generosity owners right, but the people really rewarding are your managers were primarily compensate in shares low value here, so they get pumped up also, so they nobody
just the same as you got this on time. Inventory: philosophy that really killed us during the pandemic. This, like I dont, want cashflow sitting around on my books. Attitude left them totally prepared for the pandemic, so immediately disney had to start borrowing, money like you would think, profitable company would not need to dip into borrowed money, but of course, its anathema to have cash sitting around here, even for an emergency, so they met like it was lot of business practices contributes to country. Into the way our workers or screwed during the pandemic, and not just fact that they were so low point paid for so long that there were articles. Before the pandemic. I now don't remember them about how nobody could have four hundred dollar emergency. If it came up, there are a whole series of articles right before the pandemic. Sure enough there, big emergency, more than four hundred dollars, and they had to go right up to the food banks. There was no patting for anybody here for its it's awful, because
right there you would have to rebuild, to create number structured, actually take care of people, and they just don't give a fuck yes and we had an infrastructure at one time that was imperfect and book bookbook it was like, and that was like a hedge we stopped or god forbid, you give them stock option, yeah well, yeah, god forbid, and if you free cashflow flow, like you have you know foreign and million extra dollars just lying around as a result of how profitable you are you and you think it should go to people who deserve it, wire, your employees, who produce much of that value considered as important as your shareholders when you return that value, the people would serve it lets so where is the where's that, and if you after a year after year, your profitable wire their wages not raised, and why are they dying in their cars, then are dying in their cars. Went the person who died in a car that release just killed. Everybody was I'm shit play the poor six days a week for eight years,
Then one day she just to show up and nobody knew where she was, and nobody could find but he's living in her car. Was in the movie. I mean we can Only so much you can shove in a movie, unlike we showed that movie so full of stuff yearly, and end of story. Kills me it's terrible, and so is it unfortunately, will really sat with me in- and I've noticed it before. Is this sort of you when you do have the union strike in front of the part that you have you no fear? ways walking into the park dismissive looks like there's. This natural aversion to you no, the the two activists two and two wanting to putting voice to a very your vulnerable and angry reality. Yeah.
People. Who am I just be convinced because of their credit that they write a different class than that Are you looking down at these people as they enter the part that that tone of in An engagement always kills me. You know at least half of it people may be forty years ago, wouldn't have dared to cross picket line. Wouldn't have dreamed of it in and so lap power memo to go back for you that pal memo is really important because he is a given in the power memo that we should obliterate. The union movement should be destroyed, em and certainly not the first thing rag and got to work on beer in the nineteen eightys, but but what he focus on. He was how do we make people hate unions? What go into the schools and retrain people in how to think about unions, not just the duchess business school to your high schools and colleges. Let's write books, let's have our own. The and also to take my boy blame. The mob yeah exact,
so. There was a massive social campaign against movements, and I still even after that film have to talk to people about why the unions are bad mia and and unions, have gotten obliterated. I mean they are barely functioning em are working as hard as it cannot their brilliant people in them. But they don't have enough money and they don't have enough time and they don't have enough staff. They need much more support and I guess you know I not coming from the boy for I don't know anything. I think there is a period in the sixtys and seventys where they were of the a bad leadership and and and pay offs and stuff, nonetheless share. Your question I mean that was the idea of the euro area the D of the union in its intent was about. Like hey, you know what I mean. You can't have kids
working all night long with no food making shoes or whatever. Thank you union movement for a weekend right and an eight day work day, yeah and child labor laws exactly so yeah. No, there are some brilliant people in the union movement who are who are really trying to kind of pick up the pieces from, and you see the way that teachers' union you know is so widely controversial. But all a union is, is a recognition that workers, if they can't bargain collectively their fucked you know and emma? And so what we are being asked right now, especially to move more more to a gig economy? Is we're being asked to trust the the ceo class to take care of how paternalistic is that, where workers and no
the workers have rights right or else don't just trust- that workers who take care of themselves yet that there's a selfishness involved too to our perception may write that, through this weird kind of like a pig yo cherry pick your reality, yeah business and any and at the heart of the anti union kind of campaign was stop. Thinking. That we rely on each other. This is how society works. Each of us is one little blade of grass sticking straight up totally and acting at one or two about you finger exactly that's a beautiful lawn image. I have in mind. I am I am I now am I bet, and so in milton friedman says a society runs on individuals. Pursuing their self interest. I find to be the most offensive because he says it as though as though this is all obvious that they like this,
Just the thing you say the sky is blue in which is really not have this species work like a exactly unlike the heavy, have you been at birth like, if you see now that works, you come out of a person and there's all these people their helping that, appen and then holding that person, so the other person can get better and then he know what The family. We inter related problem when you know when intellectuals who who their job is to think provocative. In philosophical ideas to promote them. Within the within academia? Your kind, get released into the real world exactly and that's what happened with milton friedman sure it's happening again with worse people with jordan, peterson yeah and ye yeah yeah, there is definitely people it's like they disappear to be in academia. This is supposed to provoke, thought, yeah and debate. It's not supposed to be practical.
Applied. Have you met people who were trying to get somewhere but they're just too smart to get sober sure cause they just thick tit so much sense? They don't know how to talk sense, to accept the idea of powerlessness, well, yeah yeah, but there's also person who can just talk and talk and tommy? I could talk more because, like that, you don't have, connected with anything human rights, and I have met so many academics like bar. That's how you thrive in academia what's right ran so that you pull him out of academia, and you say, oh constructive, pro writer in milton friedman, so much worse news than even we make him in the film cause. If you read the shock doctrine, Melanie rhymes, I omit reminder amazing. That's an amazing book. Read that fucking book it'll make you wanna kill me men just dig him up and bury him again because he eat you talking to PIN oh shut in advance of the coup planning, his flight with all his chicago folks,
if they were going to pass in months, it was it was the chicago schools, global experiment, on your how to young kind of aggressively free market every here, exactly and so in it. What has happened since the doc I mean cause. You know that you know he after the doc exe that establishes itself that yeah this is, does not going to be some closure at the end where everybody gets their pay day and well. I will say this yes on the. A hotel maids on property, disney, have just achieved twenty three. Fifty in our When I started working on this, they were in the eleventh so and twenty three fifty is tat. Mostly close to a living wage in anaheim here, so they have actually made incredible strides. That's grand that that's the way the hotel mates are it's going to have to go up from there and they're not going to be able to retain anybody unless they go up from there. So as massive that is massive, and it's also the interesting thing about the pandemic is a lot of people are like fuck. It yeah
you know it's like we're, not gonna, go work, and you can't. I mean people have an expectation when they showed that part that the people they grow There are nice and is very hard to be nice. You know if, when you're, making eighteen ocean our so would let's, let's be clear, they have no choice if they believe in the proposition of disney land, they have no choice but to go radically up with which is so. First of all, I wanna keep the pressure on as much as I cannot support the union's as much as I can but there's a bigger issue here, because wages are only one aspect of this ideology that took over corporate amerika and theirs there's another ideology cut of becoming more prominent. This, the public benefit corporation or the b corp, or things like this. What if disney became the largest speed? work in the kind that is its sickly. You agree to a series of a problem
is about transparency, political lobby, anger, how you treat employees, how you treat the environment. Where is basically, if you're, a big corp you're, a corporate, and running the way. A corporation would run if you gave a shit about human beings, as if people mattered, there's a few, those right arthur yeah. They are here and there a bunch of them there are. I think there is any way, eight thousand of them in the united states right now, so by its growing really quickly. So little by little. Smaller corporations are signing onto this pledge and it will Yes, there are legal ramifications to it because it release them a lot of shareholder lawsuits because they ve dave given up the idea of shallow shareholder primacy for its own sake and so that's massive of white prosperity primacy of shareholders. Your report, mrs they only shareholders, manner, share out aggressive. If you can get past that and start to recognise success as something more broad than simply. You know.
You could say that my success isn't a success if I just dumped a lot of shit in the river that nobody can drink from the river, every european red have actually should count in the company to be a cost. The company, that's what the bee court it is about and what a future it is now becoming a bee corp. What what imagine it and imagine the size of the power of that company and how many companies my fallen. It's not easy lira your anger, who runs blackrock capitals, the largest trillions of dollars under management when the largest investor in the world has said, I would look favourably any management who proposed be corpse tat smith's injury onto the sheriff. So there is a shift in. There are people who normally you would think of as darth vader in this who are suddenly coming around, saying like we're all we're going to just planet up. If we don't well, that's right, but it's taken a long time and now what they have to deal with is like you have these brain fucked. You know you know just, regular people who have become
nihilistic monster in, no moral compass or no understanding of repercussion. And they just something is shifted in a lot of humanity and its to be driven by the desire to see the ship burn. Yeah. I think that is true I don't think many of them are shareholders of large? No, of course not, but I'm just saying like you know this was This is the repercussions of the philosophy that your talent, I feel we have arrived at, the only logical place we could possibly when the grievances become so deep and in the quality of life, becomes so compromise that it's not about truth. It's just about honouring anger and a lot of that anger is going to be directed whatever they perceive as as proactive, awoke or or exact diminishing their their grief, exactly exactly but let me just say one but the general six, the first shut up there. If you take it out of it,
I know out of it the evils and, ask people what their analysis was much of it was corporations and elites? Don't care about us? They ve taken over their running things and we fucking hate them that's great if event wrong. I know its not wrong, but a lot of them are just sort of like the government. Did the government does not function properly. Many them are owned by corporation and any weak, but that's not did that connect latin is made, but it is important that their analysis isn't that far off of right. That's what if you could somehow take our tat, the government exactly an end. Will there there not just saying government like they pick and choose their There are corporations their angry at their angry facebook manager and arouse, but if you can actually make fine tap into that right, miss and connected to this rightness here, then you have something interesting. Then you have. The class is actually the class work. It together. Okay and isn't
Why we're so divided rest. The thing that scares the powerful more than any is that we put it together right. So so it's not I'm very close to hopeless, may have not completely more good I'm glad you made the movie. Thank you and I, it's important that people put this information out there that their passionate about this, attaining changer least him putting the ideas out there in a high. I am. I am heartened myself that I dont do it enough. Because it is easy to to get depleted by me. You know by like this movies personal on its it's good in it and its eight you in on it. It's enlightening nothing toward people. Now, a pig, For saying that, I really really appreciate that. I always I'd like to talk to nice attacked. That was a full rich? the conversation, personal, political, emotional, good You can find the movie the
can dream another fairytales at american dream, doc, dot You can also watch it at home on video on demand platforms, and yes, so what are we all just process think reflects my my foot. Ok, I just goes out again worth while reconvene here and a second suggest hang out for a listen next. This special story is presented by amazon and a cask creative folks. I want de about gift giving like gonna by someone a shirt by some one pants by someone you know, a set of spoons that would be an interesting give. That would be a memorable gift, but Ultimately, they d, like I don't use spoons, but marin semi spoons. It was weird, but those are the marin spoons. They show people, but they wouldn't use em. That's the point is I never know
to get people and the holidays only make it harder. It's a great season to spend time with family friends. But if you like me, the anxiety of getting the wrong gift can be overwhelming the ones gift being experiences stands out my mind as just terrible? It was with I first serious girlfriend, I was in college. Her name was sarah and choose cut funky but kind of him, but came from like westchester jean grow up like that no grows up like that. For whatever reason I bought her a ralph lauren sweater, it was not achieve sweater, it had to be a four hundred dollar sweater. It was just a a cable sweater, a heavy sweater like a irish sweater, didn't it didn't reek of being ralph Lauren. It was like a nice sweater. I liked it and- and I gave it to her and it was like she'd might as well- have opened the box and there was like a dead rabbit in there and it was one of those moments where she's like Why would you get this for me? Do you no me at all.
There's a lesson in all of this. Why you might not be able to find the absolute perfect gift? You can take a lot of stress out of the process of getting them, which is why using amazon makes sense for the holidays. The great thing about It's about ordering things on amazon as gifts as well. You could just do it and then it goes there that you don't have to leave your house or wonder about packaging or anything else, and you can write a note with amazon news other than you. There are things you can do like when I order stuff off amazon. I don't I don't write a note to myself. Ok, man happy day by, but it's is exciting. When I get boxes could actually never know. What's coming, that's me! So, try, not distress out too much with the holidays. Coming up, you ve got give shopping at your fingertips with amazon Thank you for listening to this story, brought to you in partnership with amazon and a cask creative sh. The legendary deals at amazon now back to the show.
Week on Monday, we have writer and director tony gilroy on the show, he's the show runner the new star wars series andor. He did born movies and he's out of the writer and director of one of my favorite movies, Michael Clayton,. So I needed some answers, but I'm you don't like I'm, I'm not going seen foreseen, mean Brenda. Did that you can hear that on if you're full merits, strieber next week, we're gonna post especial episode with me in brendan pending an hour talking about Michael Clayton, almost seen foreseen, but I just like this Tony Gilroy is booming away, he's engaged he smart he's, got a gun, personal story and the Michael Clayton process was was amazing for me to talk about. Knows I talk about the movie enough so listen to that and listen to me. I'm brendan talking about Michael but that will be next week after. I think we talk to a tony you're right, but right now you can listen to the movie. Talk we posted this week, which was all about movie stars
and documentaries and a bunch of, If that was on our minds because of this week's episodes with sigourney, weaver and abigail disney mean brendan together on them. You we go way back at this point. Are you kidding? I've been would brendan since two thousand four dude he europe with me this guy, watch him grow up, always was much more grown up to me even when he was twenty four. He was right. What's at with you. Why butter? Yes, we're talkin! If you have that full marin subscription. You can hear, and if you have a full man's excursion, you can click on lincoln the episode description or gotta, deputy pod, dot com and click on devotee of plus a lot of things happening. Gotta talk, you talk yeah. So listen! I'm in toronto! Tomorrow night and saturday night at the queen elizabeth theatre, next
I mean livermore, California, the bank had theatre on october, sixth, and Carmel by the sea, California, at the sunset centre on october. Seventh, you might, I come to that. If you can see Just me and laura eight and twelve people, maybe you in a circle: It'll be fine, can be pretty it'll, be nice, maybe it'll be fun I am in london- doing- I'd live deputy over the booms re feeder on Wednesday october nineteenth with comedian and writer David, but deal now, I've got stand, shows that the booms very saturday and sunday october, twenty second and twenty third. Think those are sold out when ireland emmett vicar street on Wednesday october, twenty sixth, Then, in november and december, I'm in oklahoma, city, Dallas, san Antonio Houston, long beach, California eugene organ bend- or asheville, north carolina and nashville tennessee. Finally, my hbo
He'll taping is a town hall in new york city on thursday december eighth go to deputy of pod doc. Flash tour for all dates and ticket info. And I'm gonna show how impressively limited I am at guitar is I got this? Is pretty much all I got
the boomer lives monkey father, the fond cuttings messy, but there are some good moments
Transcript generated on 2022-11-15.