People nowadays will be here before you know it. Take your holiday buddy. further this year with low prices and unbeatable deals from amazon. You always get ass deals using amazon on black friday and cyber monday, but the low prices last all season long and it's never been easier to get. Your item sent you fast, prime customer unlimited free to day shipping on eligible items for everyone else, shipping, free when your order includes at least twenty five dollars of eligible merchandise, shop legend. deals at amazon this holiday season and keep everyone on your gift list. Happy spend less smile more hey votes today, episode is sponsored by square space. If you need a website, like

we did with w t, have pod dot com and square space is the best way to create a beautiful website. Yourself, use the square space tools to grow your business or your personal brand, with the squire space, video studio, score space, email campaigns and the new square space member areas where you can offer exclusive bonus content to your audience, go to school based I've come so I stability. If for a free trial, and when you are ready to launch use, offer code, w d have to save ten percent off your first purchase of a web. Site or domain that squarespace dot com? W e f offer code, w e f. Alright, ok hey. Let's do the show

all right. Let's do this: how are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the fuck's there's what's happening? A mark mare- and this is my podcast- w p a welcome to it. Clearly. This is not the yeah, but I am in a room, a hotel room, I went ahead and through for the nice room, because I'm here tonight in new york city to take my special now, those views have been kind of hanging out with me during the process of building towards us know that I'm writing a fine line that there seems to be a way. I I prepare for this stuff that I'm, We surprised that it happens. There is. There is no healthy way for me two were to get ready for fur like this, and I've done many specials. It knows why things that go through my head. There's a lot of things that debt that I'm doing to try to maintain some sort of

you know grounded this, but none of them were great, but none of them are terrible. You know I'm a relatively healthy person in terms of physically but for the footpath a month or so at as many of you know, who have been listening. I've been unable to eat well at sorry, new york city and I'm on the eighteenth floor. Yet it still comes up through the windows. He probably can't hear it but you know I've been new, choking down these cigars to get that nicotine thing it's I'm recording this at thirty in the morning and I've already drank three large cups of coffee. And smoked a medium sized cigar, and my brain is on fire. But this is old school me You know it's just a way back when I did radio with brendan in the fellows, I used to just sit there.

I drink it in a literally a court of dunkin, donuts coffee and eat a bag of eminem's and just get lit, but now I just seem to be focusing trying to focus and and stay with the process of making this special as good as the make it. I should tell you before. I continue rambling, that Elvis shows on the shoulder. I've kind of Elvis for years, he's a writer, a professor of film critic and the host of the radio show podcast the treatment, but we certainly hungary and in the same places before we talk to each other for years, I've known this guy and now he's got a film out he's a documentary film maker now, and he just made the movie. Is that black enough for you about black cinema from the seventys and its great? It's it's a great movie and I have to confess my ignorance now look

I sometimes say things that in it I dont think through and that may seem generalizing or or off putting or meal uninformed, because I kind of fly with his. Consciousness, but I am certainly willing to learn and adjust and reflect on my my ignorance or my mistakes in terms of you how, in what I say I may have been This a long time I mean doesn't mean I stop say: things, but I will think about it and if I am wrong or incorrect, I can admit it and I kinda own it for sure, but this situation with black cinema no the history and for some reason in my mind, a lot of the blacks quotation movies. I never saw because I thought they were campi. Somehow I thought that that people want

then you're, some of them anyway. I've seen some dolomite movies. I've seen shaft I've seen some movies, but I thought it by and large that a lot of them were were sort of campy. But I was educated man. I was schooled by Elvis's movie and it was an enlightening and exciting to watch the film and make note of the films that he talks about which are in the end. There must be over one hundred. He goes really through the entire history of of black cinema and black independent cinema, which goes back to the silent era, but I watched coffee for the first time with with pam grier for the first time a few weeks ago and on some level as a guy who likes film that scene.

to be almost a criminal oversight. I wouldn't say criminal, but ignorant, and it just got me engaged with his history that didn't know about and and along with them. A few weeks ago, when I talked to Henry louis gates about to the black community building, you know from the early nineteen hundreds or post reconstruction like there's just so much I don't know- and am I excited to learn, and this movie was a spectacular and I was very excited to talk to Elvis about these movies. As a guy who should know- and I believe that I should know as somebody who pays attention to movies about this chunk of film history and because of his documentary- I now know it but I've. I've started watching a lot of the films in n coffee as a fan of seventies. Films was raw and and and sort of, unlike any movie, have

ever seen in its depiction of of drug use from the era and just you know, power dynamics ina within the criminal world to a certain degree, and and also that the story, If the female heroine, which was near totally compelling but elvis ray, goes into a a lot about black history at in in film and also about the appropriation of it. Obviously not, unlike almost every art form that the white cinema took from it, so I highly recommend it and- and I will talk to him in a few minutes, but I'm excited about it, but I dunno. If anything is going to be as exciting as last night, I went to a screening of, two last week we did a q and a me and andrea riseborough, Michael Morris, and a Brooke shields was in the audience. Brooke shields was in the audience, and I could not even take it look

brook shields is brookfield. Everybody in the world knows brookfield, I feel like. I grew up with brook shields now you know from this podcast there You know I have a certain familiarity with people based on their their public facing beings. and in sometimes it you know, I just I there's there's no boundary there like I approach them. Like some of you approach me, you know with complete sense of familiarity and Debra winger. Was there another person Who is one of my instagram ladys, but I've never met her and an eye, recognizer of first resort of awkward when I finally realized she didn't know this, but when I finally those are my comical used everywhere. You're like there was a momentary whose is amazing, woman talking to me not in I just sort of like it, took me a second to realize there were their son, so I got to meet her and talked to her, which is great, but I saw books

and as everyone was walking out to go to this after party thing, I just said: how are you brook shields hand as she says, I'm good good job end and she was walking out, but you went to the thing I got to meet her and tat were, and I gotta say it was a life highlight I dont. Even I can explain it, but I feel, like I grew up with Portugal's were roughly the same age, and I remember her from the beginning of her brooks yields nervous. and it was just really She'S- really sweet and and funny- and it was fun to meet her. I can't really explain- but I dont know that any things can a top me meeting brook shields and I don't even know why that is, but it is so after tonight my special would be taped and my tour will be done that Then, a year of being on the road hammering this set, that's a long time

Something I've been wondering about for awhile is what exactly I can do for fun. after this? Do I even know how to have fun is a big question in my life and- and I don't know, but I I now I have some you know time on my hands and I should be able to find this out and I've been er, hopefully be able to discover the fun had been about this. When my producer brendan, in fact, we are thinking about making a year a separate, see about me trying to have fun. We thought of maybe doing it marvel movies or some other kind of pop culture distraction. But nothing was really sticking with me so, the march last week and and talked about it again, because Brennan had an idea. This got me thinking about something exactly where I was thinking about, in fact I'll show you where I was, thinking about it, do you have your phone with you yeah? I just texted you something see if it comes through, oh yeah, so that's a from a tell lies paper view from

two saturday's ago and if you play it, you'll see a guy any next to a professional, wrestler. Sharing out of his mind, yeah a guy with a blue mask and glasses. You what was it, like two weeks ago, who is that guy yeah. Who is that who is who the guy cheering as me, yeah? The guy was cheering for was the champion of a e w, which is all elite wrestling yeah and I went to it in new jersey with with our friends lopresto no yeah. We used to work I'm morning, sedition with us here, and it was sold out- showed a hockey arena, but twelve thousand people and I standing there going like this- is just a maze guide to go to this stuff is a little kid. It gave her time in my life, where I totally ignored in there, but but

the sense memory was their lawyer to immediately get block back into it and I really have with especially with this promotion, because the the things that they're doing with it are very recognisable to me as exactly why I started enjoying it in the first place over the years. You know, because we worked together for so long. You know I've. I've had to learn from rescuers because you you're interested rescuers has brought a lot. wrestlers around I mean an energy, several big resources and I think people wonder you probably even wondered it for a time like. But europe is it's stupid if you know it's fake, what what's the point, why what do you care about it? And you know it? easy to answer that for me, especially now having you know, most of my life dealing with entertainment is, I don't care there's nothing about that I'm even worry, I'm not even concerning myself, with artifice infected very real from the sense that does guy or woman, whose

playing the role and trying to get something across through this tremendously athletic difficult performance, do they deliver it right. Yeah news amazing guy right now, let's at the top of that promotion. Eighty w his name is m. J, ai visa good standing actual jacob friedmann, and his gimmick is just like he's the jewish kid from long island who thinks he's better than you. That's is given his cat, france and better than you, and I know it and and better than you and you know it, and he He did this whole bit that he was angry the promotion and Could they weren't taking him seriously enough any left they played? this way. They let him leave for six months. Three months, he's gone off tv. Then he comes back and he's gonna challenge for the title is now back and he's got the rights to challenge the title and he goes to a guy who's, managing the champion and he's I'm doing this because a view,

because you used to work for w w e and you did not hire me In fact, you sent me these emails. Encouraging me to keep sending your tapes and to keep you know, keep in touch try to get a job with you and then sent me this email- and he reads this email in the ring to this guy saying you know: write for us. Please stop sending us emails and w w E hires world class athletes. Maybe someday you'll be one you not one and he's I'd that email made me want to kill myself and at every day, I've lived my life thinking, I'm going to stick it to you right, and this guy is supposed to be the heal right, yeah and so that the the manager he said Stu em, look I'm glad you feel that way like him. Frankly, when I send an email, I bet you or anybody else in china light a fire under EU is like I used to work.

The carnival circuit I'll get my face beat in every night by these guys, when I was seventeen and be crying, bed bleeding. If you're about an email you ve had an easy life is I've taken shortcuts, stop doing all these things. You come out you cheat year, you're claim you better than people and I just tried and do it earned it and so they set this up. He finally says I'm going to fight I'm going to do it on my own and throw away my the things I used to cheat not going to hit people with with with with foreign objects and at what I'm gonna do it for real and I'm going to this show. This was the show the prison I went to and Chris and I oh psych, why he's gotta cheap to win right and, in fact what would be the best thing is: if is gonna cheat and doesn't

and the manager realises he did the right thing, and so the manager turns on his own guy and sheets for him right, I remember it'd be the best story that the guy the manager finally sees in him. What he wanted to see them will sure enough. That is exactly what he gets down to. The ring is going to hit him with. He has a giant ring going to put the ring on the finger the manager says like pointing out and you're not going to do that if he did the ring off. He throws it away, but now- the guy that champion put them in the sleeper hold a fucked rare that Health is not down there and the guy don't wake up, their managers is go wake up the rough he's. Gonna get wake him up so that he can see you got this kind of sleep ruled as each

to go, get the rest. The manager slipped in a pair of brass nux, two m j f here who gets up uses and he becomes a happy. I was so thrilled at the story played out. I like it was. It was not that I wanted it to be real, that I wanted them to really tell the story that made the most emotional sense. They go on the most ups and downs right. It's a script thing! Yes, but here the other thing, when you really look into what it is like they're, not scripting it from the perspective of their writing it down on a piece of paper and here's, you guys' roles and what you're supposed to do? That's not what these guys are w w. He does that to an extent yeah. This is all improv. Yeah these guys sit, and they talk about the like like much like you and I did when we had MC folia. Here's what's gonna happen. Ultimately we're trying to get to hear Do you to perform your part, so we can get there right.

Nobody said: do you mark marketeers everything? You have to say you have done. It is right that exactly right, to its very very closely, how do I do a lot long form improv year. All of this is to say this is leading up to the fact that You and I are going to go in, enjoy this the way out did live person. out, in los angeles and on january, eleventh they're gonna. Be out there at the allay forum, your flight tickets, for us, I flying out all right to a wwe wrestling. I'm in I'm ready. I I got choked. I got, w. Tell me the story about the kid where I met. You know this that this will be a good test due to see like what the type of character that someone dies as a ressler, particularly not cartoonish, wrestling like all these residues in this a w are just generally

people and they're not playing a cartoon right, and so I would be I'm going to be interested to see what you wind up latching onto exciting good plan, we get a refund field trip coming up. Ok, that's a team of a longer episode. We just put up for food. Erin subscribers, where we listen to an wrestling angle? We did on the radio with progress or mic foley, but it's also a tease of this rescuing fields brandon, and I are going to do yeah, yeah and we're gonna document. All of it would some clips here on the show and full episodes on dvd have plus. So if you want to subscribe to that, go to the link in the episode, description or click on deputy of plus over Debbie,

Do you have pod dot com, I'm going to be a wrestling guy, while I'm going to go the wrestling thing and see if it clicks? Is it ever too late to lock in with the excitement and drama and and energy of professional wrestling? I I don't know we will find out. I am sort of. I would be amazed and somewhat disturbed, but excited to become like a an all in wrestling fan at fifty nine years old. It's possible brendan has liked wrestling loved wrestling since was a kid. Some definitely going with the right guy. So look elvis Mitchell was here documentary is that black enough for you now streaming on networks, and I was thrilled and a grateful in in a way to watch it and and be you know, educated through this curated experience Elvis put together and we talk about it.

How do you like your bathroom, because I got I watched the dock twice Yes, a lot in their dude moliere, in two or three episodes. You know that. Okay, didn't you the fincher said when we went to talk where he goes. No, this has to be five or six. Ours? Is you can't get this in two hours? True man, so he was like taking you know, is like almost like. A whole semester good. I wanted to be compared education. Thank you always liked. Class was like hell, remsen and know. How did we get mean? You are educating, I mean, that's it. You know the thing is, and you know if anybody's your audience, I am a relatively smart guy, they didn't know half that shit or three quarters of a real, the eta shocking. Is it yeah? I mean don't you know not at all

The film nerd- and I would never accuse you that it also but you're a student of popular culture- that's right but but like it was just sort of this is not unlike, I guess, many primaries, white people with sorted by but you I would have had to go back and I obviously I went back at some point and We watch the seventys and your movies, which you know, use of using this movie to make an example using your dog to make an example of how the black filmmakers handle that in what they did with that and how they shifted. That dialogue around the aunt the euro, but like I did I know I'm was leading me that way, so What s the point of the dark, because you know I was there, that's right, the exact! That's all I'm saying like you know, but to my, like my fault, in not knowing it is that I didn't take it upon myself to go watch, those movies, because again We really have guidance and I think that if anything like. I was wondering if you had a book sit like. I asked the publicity I said. Can you give me a list of every

movie that in these doctrines If I remember that what I got, I may say to two hundred sixty five years: twelve But how are you going to do that? I mean people give me that shit. You really should have some sort of Primmer that goes with Well, what we have is the ability to pause and write stuff down now it used to be. If you saw this kind of thing you rented or whatever I get it sure, but you know I almost did that. Yes are now it's a very good at it I have no issue with people pause and write things down me. I wish you'd had a chance to see it theatrically. Just because of all that stuff looks so good. It was just this offers was for movies in the sea that shit. Ability winged, leading into the frame start before his face, turned on waiting to be here. I can see the eyes manicure his lineups, let right he looked like Marlena.

right yeah and he was so excited about that. You talked to him. I it was. It was good to see him. I didn't know he was still alive. He ended. The greatest got incompletely seems like a great self effacing, I'm getting yeah. Fifty years later, he's still fifteen years yeah it was hilarious and- and I just saw Glen terminal in that the del toro sorta series yeah the heroin, though the horror anthology still working to worry and bill again, another great guy here, there's so much you can. I mean there's so much left out? We talked about the fact that he was one of the three people of a roll of of handsome Yes, our really get. Well, that's the point. That's the thing I'm saying is that there is so much in narrow had what I had once or twice. I I want you twice cause I missed things like there. There were so departures within the narrative of the dock that could have been their own half hour. Forty five minutes. They now look what you think Why me why just more of the music and neither the power of sound tracks and also just decline, recording ever know yet again, just and also the

the add the to kind of like because it seems that making your contextualising something but you're, also making an argument in this movie in a way Oh completely media and that's the point. You make an argument, peace because so much of it Again, you is worth by really smokers. My pop culture know that their becomes. Can a binary way. The black cultures view right: it's either this or that is placed quotation right, not where I know it's more than that right and so what I wanted to do. First of all to do this. That you never see with black movies. Where you see a compendium like from the oscars agreed Clips of all time is a bunch eclipse, the godfather. Wherever then there's always call me mister tips. As I was saying blacklist s rights, only one language is as if there's nothing, and I thought- I want to make a movie that could be all these. They could be its own compendium of the graves clips of all times

I will never included right just seeing again build you a lean into the frame and he's giggling, because he can't believe himself vacate stay in character. Eddies get no kind of you so tickle. But how are you If you like, what I was going to do is like fill in some backstory in terms of yameen, you've been a movie critic for a long time sure this is ye. Were you you, started than your time. Golly. No, I started she was what I start at the away: weekly videos the word you get your ear education around film watching movies. It's just watch. Did you study you study film earn anything now to know. I slept for the people that take your glasses poor, dear god, in Heaven, but it's a new idea, green, he was a little dry salesman. Laura said you know, don't you

speaking, will yeah, what are you gonna do with that yeah I'm qualified to drive the uber that brought me here. I should have done that would have been here on time, but I always watched movies and as we get into in the documentary have as well. Kind of foundation lay by my grandmother, who, may I say stuff, like the any griffin shows there, the no black people That is you. Are there? No black? in that show. Where do you think they're em, like I'm six? What are you doing to me? But it's also this. I think too, because also were roughly the same as you remember that time when, if you saw a white person by person in something it was dolt entertainment. They just be talking. I don't have a register that, but, but I guess such a real black person. Cargo wool, like this movies tv, worse as a kid mice, charlie with be AL, freeman and patty do she was pregnant. He was them. Draft agility and help her out where they live, nothing remotely sexual between a bit because she's pregnant.

and he's there. It's adult entertain like these. Could things always struck me as being complete insane or doubles. And where in movies enough hey collyer, obviously area when there's a merry couple there between better as a keener, washes the thing while white people or creed yeah yeah cause. You never saw Mary black people yet. Therefore, you thought why people live different than we did well. I think you touch on so much stuff in you know, sometimes in passing. You know like that quote from your grandmother's great, but also the the idea that you know the the group, of jewish immigrants who started the motion, pictures that Neil gabe, where arguments of creating a facsimile or or an idealized america. Through through the films that they could pass in or that they could get. You know that they can manufacture, but you have waited where they could live visit. Fasting thing by this mark somewhere. This built on his will weird self hatred or self abnegation. This idea of these people creating myths and theirs

if in the american movies, it really does exist in any place where ya thereabout heroism pia and was standing up in taking this kind of stay here? And so, when the war, that clipping move you this weird thing atlas freely: let watching with the shot. Thank god. Damn shall yet right right and more widely. Rita Hayworth is what you rita. Hayworth part wasn't written for black person on everybody in how the one of that party. I actually seen what the everybody who was hot wanted that role where does our regimes have them? Do you don't know that It can be it's own, separate documentary, sure, but morgan freeman gets it and he says I love when she does that shit with her hair, you kind of go wow, that's about black men having been indoctrinated, to see straight hair like this, and you also think too, that Rita Hayworth was a latina had herb, basically her skin bullies and at her hair die. I so this So many different levels area of rio

being denied that their touched, I knew at new explore that you are pretty pretty thoroughly in terms of of people doing all types of brown face. You know and in how we would that. There's an idea in the movie that you kind of you kind of both, which is that the entire made up of white culture thing make it do it better In that I'd never heard of framed like that. I mean I always assume that it was an idea sort of just what we do, but I didn't think of the the the superiority thing? You know that you have Can mimic it better. Oh shit, it's always close to pay. when kale yeah film critic, the new yorker and every once in a while. We have this conversation about olivier in othello, and one of her intimations was that he could do better than that. Blackadder me out, but I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure he can't be black person better than a black person. I'm not gonna argue with you that he's talented news, so is that

this kind of generational thing to, which is why I wanted to include both Olivier and orson welles, doing doing but don't you like, isn't there any sort of pass given for tradition and shake in theatre? That's not the quota. Media question is theirs. Didn't you come there? Is this kind of entitlement to comes in this and this also this kind of regard for that too ral, you know he's doing othello course he can bring something to the fact is for all that kind of. tradition. It also became his kind of de facto segregation or black. Does one allowed to do so as the others, if the coin was that. Well, that's the thread through the entire thing that you know that initially and film you know, blacks were depicted as clowns or swathes and then in blackface. Lex playing those and then that leads us to bug me and then me right now send word. Those gloves right was cruelly come from blackfeet from minstrelsy, yeah, yeah and

but what was interesting in an telling was that, yes, that lasted for for decades in decades right so that any the counter story that I didn't know about was the history. black cinema you even starting in the silence set. I just talk to anyone gates his documentary about the rise of of black cities by towns by banks, black fraternal orders that were sort of you put together in in as a a sort of reflection of white in order to have their own communities because we a segregated exactly this. What was interesting was that you were able to defined in really kind of put into context these early. Dependent black filmmakers who were director during the silence, not just the directors of directors writers actors and had the book the theatres mean effect. It's a black film. of the negro lakes. We do all this work certainly no white director rapid action

that was my point was that was probably in europe. Collusion with that's the word with with the sort of burgeoning you know. black business world and emerging black communities where they were like well. Why can't we have this business too, but also this thing where what we want to see moves as simple as that. In addition to that, creating this this parallel universe, where you have this thriving back, middle class he arose in Chicago right, creates ebony magazine yet magazine because you never gonna get into time a newsweek and then because of ebony, and yet there is exposure of the m until picture, because a white present gonna covered. But I do know that that was powerful in that in the end equally packed it in the dock, those moments of of that really landing. Something for black people was like a moment. I really know about. I think We're way is, like I've been waiting, my entire life to do there I mean, do I get my back and for the mention skip gates and when I met him, I did

alain luck, lux lectures at harvard button. Twenty years ago now and in the wind. The lectures I gave were this materials in outpost lectures just thinking about that, because there is often so sort of rage and characterisation of you see, step and fetch it yeah. Can you even? the only anger and performance is directed to this other kind of physical physicality. I right, let become soulis subtext. And what I wanted to do was to make a film for project rather about all those those displaced emotions. What happens. Finally, so then they to explode in a decade from sixty eight that quote about what happens to those emotions where it was from Ralph. Ellison all know this. The dream differ. That's from raising the son of raising the sonja yeah. I mean that is the play. That is the line at liza, raising some from the poem yeah yeah yeah, having a dream to her it's, but it's it's it's it literally,

the sun, but it also lead to these you think about as a kid I remember, seeing with less investment at a screen. You day, if I felt my sisters, were there you in here oh yeah, you mean what our boyfriends are saying to you about nato living dead or vividly, because you that's enough, contacts it. I didn't know about that, but you put into this historical frame but yokota moving like only try to keep it in some sort of your timeline. you sort of do this by putting into historical context in a way you you kind of, take it up through yet, week. Introduction of all the movies are how black at the word again and black actors and in and prevent were represented, that you did everything shifted for you in the sixtys, but all that leading up to it was a very sort of quick indictment and and the groundwork for really Hollywood sees the black people and

and you have these actors ike burn and sandefur yes m Jackson you're talking that their experiences about internet. Acting with movies and having no real black role models, but having too, as you said, kind of adapt to the possibility that movies for everybody, in that they wanted to still be in the movies by it. It was arranged for that that they never had represented olga. Is this thing, and those really very careful about doing me ass? If he noticed a number Will sam jackson and fishburne yeah and charles brunette suzanne to pass target I wish I had a black cowboy right, a black western. Now, it's not worth it we're in black westerns, but era where michel was making found. You have a western. It would also be a murder mystery and a screwball comedy those with his eyes looked right. None of these were sounding ok with all these things will be crammed into one right venue or one film, because What you did, though, may never get a chance to make another movie, I'm going to pack

much as I can come when I do this actually visa, but what you know at worst. That sort of thing in, like all these people say acts in fish. I know well, people like me, you grew up in the south We have relatives nus out yeah, so you saw working farmers. My grandmother had a working farm yeah, which is to say you saw a black person on a horse here and seeing a black for us on a horse. What does that tell you at the very least they can control direction that they want to go when they may be stop where they elect, trawl. So being denied that kind of image in a movie. What does that baby you. What does that do to you if you by people in western basely standing on the porch wearing a about I passing out, awaiting the beatles sent home from the field, there are being on a horse that guy the agency that gives power, and that takes it to me, an immense mentioned a couple times before, but when I heard Paul, Tom's anderson talking about bucks woke in

and buggy nice is there. I thought would be kind of funny and absurd to have a black cowboy. I thought why is that absurd, and this is my golden movie than those movies, but that's a message even he got from the movies. That of the idea of a black cowboys was and even that world is covered? Basically epithet? I mean nobody's call a cowboy as a complement. It was some we these were black ranch, hands, and also there, it's like as time it's gonna be there was an entire rodeo. There's a clip in the movie from black rodya is moving nineteen. Seventy two and there there were many black cowboys MIKE Of course there were, but we never saw them in the movie. I now because the mythology of the cowboy in the movies was something different, then than the your experience, but also it again it no to power as urgent as early as it is the original kind of movie myth right, except if you take,

away from black people who are just as responsible shows is creations anything unless they take that away from them. You're saying the mess jeez sublimer message that your blood, don't belong. Do that kind of thing would be absurd to have a black person on a horse. That's it the tone us until the sixties right. It was an insane idea and applied for a long time and in ended Oh a conversation is still not why it's not correct. Wouldn't representation is not correct. Yet, oh god, you know it's. Try to figure out here. I'm glad we're talking about in this way, because figure out the way to phrase that, because so often when the word representation comes up here, it becomes is gonna buzz where the people can have by the way it makes people uncomfortable right. Oh, how am I gonna be judge. So how do I say this in a way, so I did tat tracks one was that idea bring up the western, so he gets degree plain somehow there weren't any black compost, my worthy at So the question you got as yourself way allow me posted for you, but the other part.

those other where this offer their question up with music. That was, way for me to summarize representation was, if you a person. You win oh tat, either to deliver something: you're, not gonna, go dance right, ginger, roger right or to maybe get a lead, the band pinochet rang a war or you get to dance and leave, but you don't get up again. I go. Loving screwball communism, there's, probably no bigger admirer of preston sturgis than me we made these companies about that, so mad madcap lie but also their judgments about class and wealth, because he bounce back and forth between being poor and being a creature society, and so for the his movie, so basically reduce black suit. Person or present surges movie. There is every day dialect that nobody person actually spoke. I have families in the south but he talked like, I think, with sad about the idea and the reality of truth in it

solution lies racism. Is that you know could, you must make you ask, like of of the guided respected. Is he funding mentally a wasted Person was just what people did so This thing, that's both. Isn't it is people if you have the, I don't know the wherewithal to bucket then what Who are you here, and it is worse institutionalized, just becomes inertia is his unit to try to move away, but isn't all that inertia? I mean I'm just trying to come up with a of the trigger, but it's certainly that and what started, then, and I wasn't stone, we talk about this, my grandmother's that she would say in effect what critical finger say, what is not there, some other things that resonate with me around. Certainly the line about tuxedos it you had than your evil to sort of answer that with the iron dixons movie right

so in Ivan Dixon and looking at him. I gotta Y know him. I we know him from hooligans, heroes and he may, this movie and what to call spooky who might add order that that cause such what what's the word. I want how's our jersey, an impact Then it was seen as almost criminal by the fbi right or why, god heat, I met him in the throes of my life. I got to meet him and specifically by the story. Right now. I shall a clip from moving nothing but a man. What you did before opens heroes from nineteen sixty four is abbe lincoln and Ivan Dixon. Like me, so there was great, what's your name that will maybe lincoln graves a jazz singer, an actor uniform, beautiful quit, but also to me how look inexorably always start udo and by the way move. Nineteen sixty four with an all motown soundtrack is look make that movie today, but anyway, so he makes them movie all I've been due to suffer me. This order came to a head. When I asked myself, I know: they get watching huggins. He wrote that the editor of organs emails was Michael cod

who later when on to at all Steven Spielberg movies movies, half he for the last forty years he's been Spielberg's. No, his first too the jobs amongst first movie. Jobs are trouble man in spook who set by door? I wouldn't tell me that we would sit. We be right ready? Who is the creative? How does he rose and later producing out of here and a great story? Tat? You have these screening, says how Sosa ivan in the end and Michael couched in the back row and wearing ago. I can't do this where this is making me ill like I do have to support my family by can play this guy who's. by the radio in the basement and never leaves a prison camp and michael goes listen. When you direct your movie, you let me know not additives, so that's his bond is voiced. ass. It was now goes on a do basically to have be poorer Steven Spielberg, aesthetic here, gotta working with Ivan dixon, because everything shifted in what sixty eight you think me their support because it becomes

I didn't want to do one of these things. That's one hundred years of black films because yeah, I think it's a riffles errand and I thought it was interesting that you stopped it yet this is when it ended It's kind of been there because, when the wiz, the villa, but that's a waiter, but so sixty eight for seventy eight, when that is what it ends. Yeah me, but sixty is just as point where it's a night of living dead? You still can't deny it anymore right, there's a black action, but that's like you know. I didn't ever read it like that, because I didn't read the papers, I'm not in the black community. I didn't read the criticism of it that your post, what's in riots that The way that the knight of the living dead was received by the black community was was was twofold right but also that you romero whether he knew it or not, was really making a pro on social statement. Do you think that he was conscious of all that? I think he's trying to solve a problem. Then he realized what he had because they get it just didn't show up and he had to do something.

and dwayne jones stepped in, it wasn't cast his back. O got, wouldn't wasn't written because when you watch the movie here, you realize his race is never mentioned tat ever. I know it's kind of it. It's you notice, tat. I mean what was your response when you saw it as a kid? What do you remember about it? I remembered like a I remember, noticing that vat This is just a guy, and he's the only black guy in it and the giro of this thing, but it's never. You know you have no back. we are united in no one ever mentions it, and there was just by nature of historic. You know: training. It was awkward like you felt, of the white woman who is hysterical and she's having to pay trust in this guy who's being decent. It kind of goes against. The troops right becomes is a this also joke about what was sitting. I did a few surrender bizarre base this that this kind of she thought what he tried to charm them. First, maybe

But you know you know what I mean, whether he, because he is always the most able person in any situation and lose the feel he fixes everything. So what can't this guy do? Oh each one of these women. That's what he can do interesting where, but then, in native living dead he's not tree like any kind. actually case he's the most in person. I try he's kind of like pissed off. They should do everything right, because you realize that so much kind of ineptitude. Hysteria around him he's got to step up, but it and he's not treat as this exceptional black man. He just a guy was doing the job at needs to be done. but there's no rate and there's no way to read that ending other. Black mangled. Let me ask you when you saw that the word: how did it back to you? Do you remember the eye? I do. I remember that it became an indictment of of sort of southern white culture to me,

that you know that, because the way they portrayed those guys with their hats in their guns- and it was a standard kind of land. Bob looking bunch that aid that there was no way to read it other than you know this was a lesson about racism. well. For me, it wasn't just southern whites. I mean growing up in Detroit and this movie comes out the year after the riots sure you can go. Oh this can be any place. Ryobi los angeles right and charles Burnett certainly makes the case about why I was young. I I dunno if I knew everything, but I was a kid, but you know, as black is a pro the reality of perspective. There is different things. But the earls when it talks about being a kid in the inn and allay in the sixties, and if you walk not? You know you gonna be stopped by you knew you gotta be stopped by anglaise any you eve felt like you didn't matter, your life didn't matter oh completely. They and the movies that about you to be the elected matter or that a wife that was like a europe putting that into contacts with the the sort of climate of the country that

movie and then being able to say that there are some to the radical black community thought it was a lesson to not trust her hang around the white people, not what this is the lesson. If you try to like If you try to be better than this, you try to show then you'll be a part of this or you want to integrate. This is what's going to happened to you. Do you gonna go down like this? You ll be thrown on top of by a burning bodies that you couldn't that lesson after malcolm x and doktor king and your ever. There was too much ladder would damage to think anything other than that they walked into it. Absolutely anything with that. I've been dixon movie, which was about a guy. You got trained by the cia and starts a black nationalist movements that the cia and the fbi took it as an instigator. and am and that he was to be watched, he told me That movie indiscreet told me that in that the united artists after eighteen months can use it here Here's. Your negative ones is take this back to the ass yours. They gave him his movie back

When does that have it while I mean that the struggle of black filmmakers at a time when they were given opportunities. It was this sort of low stakes, gamble motor wasn't given up or it was seizing opportunities to view waiting to be given an opportunity not going to still be waiting. That's what he did. He walked away from a game. anti job staying with tv- making pretty good money being a black face on tv because he couldn't do it the happens when Melvin van This is all about seizing opportunities cemetery both at it earlier, because produce always really movie and then, when he saw there, wasn't anything from the due to me this. great story of this ass, a triumphant adele, this guy, who walked away in this thing that he was built to do that trained as an actor when you hear him saying he's: basely perform those songs as if their monologue, yet as if these acting out, though song so for a walk. And this thing that he was I get things are not acting. Yes, yes, yes, I mean and he also this great understanding of what character does I have this clip the movie from

islands in the sun island in the sun. Rather, we join this big brown. To size is too big for clearly in those days even poorer people, view of redress and hate. You know This would look like a hand me down. Yet that is maybe his father suit and uncles right that doesn't belong on him Sophia. We see him, we think something's wrong. What is it right here, in the end that you know his tone. around not reminding his integrity in terms of how black people represented was. It was interesting Because it's not it's a bitter but its angry and- and you know the It was hard to really sort of decipher his real feelings about sidney. I think it's interesting because clearly they loved right, but they took two different bath terrorism. I'm not going to do this but a city hadn't done those movie they wanna got made, is better off those movies not having been made. It is not certain. My point is Let me see both saw her so that by the

the movie wrestle with how to deal city project, because this Someone said about him and then and comes under current for me. There two themes mean as waste wasted opportunity that all these rupert cry who never got to do what he should have done. I was his only there were looking year- one who is supposed to be in the last either, who bob town told me that he was like this? Incredibly charismatic figure that women loved and men admiringly. When you tell us that we can do it, he does yeah. It was just kind of unbelief, mobile, a cigarette like great movie to you anyway. Was he co stars here? They, everybody real in the nineteen fifties route cross as a six. What for jamaican? he's never gonna get I've, never gonna, be a move. Cassavetes use, em cassavetes Who is now that if you listen to jack Nicholson's voice, you listen they kind of snarl that kind of empty laugh of his? I think he's doing

cross, leaving the EU these absorbed crossed it as an actor. I have always believed that why, like this, in the connections that you make as a film critic in this movie cause. You can't help yourself so that, like that's, why I had to watch it twice to is that there's so many little kind of connections you make that just kind of blow by and you're kind of, like wait, a minute you know but but yeah cause like you can't help yourself, but that's sort of like the reason why I think it should have been longer, but also you know it makes it sort of dense. Do you know that that connect in between robber down to see me downy junior robert downy senior, making putney swap, which was held tremendous impact on independent, film and in a way and an impact on how blacks are represented in movies, but yet he didn't have the confidence to let his lead speak for himself. So Robert downey sr does the the eighty are in talks with the main black character was the center of the goddamned thing, and then you kind of connected to a tropic thunder with downeys word nominated performance where he's basically doing black face, and so

Why give that goes right? By that I mean that's just that's twenty seconds I could put. I could do more because you listen to putney swope, you can. include downey, doing a lot of voices in it. So it's a waste. So what? How would you feel about that? Again? I feel if this is somebody who want to get his movie made and didn't trust us what is not as Antonia biogas, theirs, of power that I think that he said he other down he's looking for Danny senor had that that are not just. That kind of actor who had the look? They didn't have the sound of that the lead putney The sector ourselves. So let's go back to like sixty eight so now like cause. This opens the door like. So what However, you conflicted about sending pointy those two movies, and I read that mark harris book? You know which I thought was great. Absolutely I mean it definitely informed of what you know someone, because one of the reasons I thought this could be a book, because I thought it should be a book. I dunno, why isn't it a book? Because everybody turned it down? Everybody turned down twice. I should

because that was I was not a book or a in our casino. I pity that with tony morrison writing an introduction. She off those lines you couldn't get a university press to fucking. Take it nobody. with this Jesus Christ. It seems criminal, ok, but Alright, so so harris in you you're both sort of posit. This idea that those two movies, that that was the beginning of a lot of things- sure black representation in a different way, but also black money, making possibility at the box office and then in some ways, opened the door for for black artists to take, what just should have, because you look, nineteen sixty is being going from nova living dead. Yet to these two sidney, portugal is being asked of it a senior in the same year. These these events is evident that the same time and sydney pocket. now the number one box office star in the world. If these two exam shouldn't say better law to be racist is like a thing you always you we'd meryton.

Pieces every once in a while. You write this piece about wise: they more black representation. How I wouldn't I go I don't care you know if some ice, green or blue or orange, I just want their money, but that's not true right, clearly not to have to tell you a couple years ago after george, llewelyn all these people, in paneling themselves, I started getting always calls so we're gonna, put together a blue ribbon, commission and and and we feel so turn what was going on now. We wondered: could you Our commission was forget. What to do. I want to know at the time and here's my answer, hire black people and I would do yeah. Not one cause is one he's Gallup data processes represent everybody too. So the two different points of view- and you see that is not monolithic to work or are you must get good ass to do that? You all time, star, saying no. Do it. It's like it's ridiculous, its business. our problem is all this was in nineteen. Sixty eight, you ve got

the heathen idea and is, in the heat of the night and and guess who come to dinner on one I am yet nine eleven down the other. This is improved, that there is a box off his power and having black stars to studio films to an independent film. that was so underestimated. They mean by the copyright. They forgot to do that so as public domain. So these bits these three movies. There are so much box office generated should now be the fulcrum makes you go pushed the racism out of the way and start to integrate and it still doesn't avenant still becomes about people seizing opportunity is about melvin four watermelon manta going. I can't do this again to making sweet, repacked bad assault could we have, which is still mine blowing to me with a police cars on fire as why why So what s and opens up, do you got a guy out, my god? Let you do that hot metal and he just grabs and opens the door. You gonna go out again that

shouldn't be any some compendium. The greatest film quits Malta, but but so they turn. You know kind of hang it on gordon parks and and and peoples to as the big sort of shifting of the of the, paradigm a little bit right their movie, because gordon parks began goal it has himself as disinclined. We'll talent and so when he gets into his studio movie the first, do your movie directed by an african american. He has to write direct produce and composes score right. That's crazy, it's crazy, but if it's on representation. We would also things parks thing to that. I'm gonna do all these things, because is it then he said to me at those gonna, never erect another movie again. I thought they take this chance on me if it fails no bypass going into the studio movie. everything everyone to do a great shot of getting back to westerns of those who?

Is he a silhouette, andean arise and those kids getting up here? It's mine, whatever becoming that's, the learning drew the thing that was sort of, I think new for me outside of all of it. Thank you for doing what you did that the label of blacks, quotation of those found from the seventy. What the eu, I think, what what that was in my mind, was something campi was it was something right. So so like I'd pay attention to it. I thought it was an a low, a sort of know, your kind of people like because it was kind of I presented some goofy, not something real right, so I I'm the guy who watches your documentary two nights ago, the first time gotta watch coffee for the first time for the first time because of the blacks quotation,

epithet. Uk dismisses being joking because jokey because, because cause your movie, your documentary, I've gotta in it's my fault, but I yoke is I am giving her in a few things, but I didn't I can Stu ized. You know the raging easy ride. It thing they did the sort of the white guys hijacking, how he wouldn't doing the anti your thing, but you know I watch coffee for the first I then, and greater than any of that shit. More real life its raw shit. Man is what tony morrison said is the tony wars and said they haven't a movie. Is us thing to wear here or coffee? bad ass and toys that tony morrison guy I he fell because with does- is it's just so reductive? It is her doctor and advice basically saying she's, not acting is not a movie. That's about. In this way, metaphorically about black, we haven't beat which was an predictors and and so the sea, the burden puts on her and in performance turn and that she d rivers in width,

generally, you didn't expect to see I'm here in an action that dude in that one seem. Were she fucking concept d or to take her to the house? he she's gonna, finish: you'll, kill the main dealer and all that sort. got one that guy pulls waited, go shoot up in the kitchen That moment it's like you, don't that shit. You know that and in the integrity of it as a passing moment as being ingredient fuckin horrible before she was the guy way, was was kind of my won't me, because none of those, maybe panic needle part may be, but no those seventies movies. You know where, where, where that graphic in that visceral and that menacing kind of canoe park is about, you know the antihero circling the drain before he goes down sure, but I'm just talking about graphic heroin and legitimate too, but I'm also trying to make that parallels between between what what movies did right and what those movies that bind us an important point to make totally and make it that has movies sacrifice heroism because it was a look, that way the actors had they played. He rose

the beginning of movies. So you say what one not He was any more because we're gonna try wrestle with bob it now more and the impetus is country fields, but these movies can't be above. He had now right because then exuberant book them, so instead internalize alike, I kind brian and make these characters who can't get measure. Wade through a single day and turn to heroin, I'm not saying these things aren't issues, but the fact is that you know, or or five easy pieces where a guy gets into a truck or you just like jump the jump. welcome, plays piano. We are yeah and then he's like in an oil field, you know the the scion of some rich, creative family. I mean that becomes kind of metaphorical for the whole thing. Doesn't it he leaves the leaves privilege behind to and then he goes back to the letter. asked what the reason to make this point was have that these this heroin, the american movies, a bit always been about, has often been the myths since the beginning of people.

acting change and and and an antenna things with better when extreme movies left those that by an egg and aunt em as big as Myra their golden age. Is anybody there's a lot of these movies did make money and John Kerry read warner brothers in the seventies I was offer, jobs pictures in their early. Two thousands were met with him now said, to take the job. What was up on the executive like now I sleep at night shirt and I don't have to say no to people who might rather be in business with, because the studio didn't want to be in business with him, but he said to me I said to himself I have to What you guys paid to make superfly you must get. This question are right and he goes, as you know, is erasmus question, and it was like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars that is, I could have written the check myself in retrospect. I probably should have bought myself a release that these in turn return on investment. Superfly was the biggest profit maker.

Yeah during his tour at warner brothers. This is a guy who who's there when they made the exorcist for god's sake, but you know one hundred fifty thousand dollars. back to about twenty five million, and he said to me he's gonna think that kept bouncing around in my head and let this getting done. The dirty secret of the american cinema, the nineteen seventy asia that blackberries financed it too. Don't energy, and we see from bankruptcy by shaft a lot of these movies made money. We missed any. These are also in this other things and movie too, that I want to try to make because they were floundering, yeah eyebrows and also because if you know can moviegoers and new been raised on a myth of heroes and you going to see a panic needle they are even your warehouses home. I didn't I have this in my neighborhood. I need to go see the movies right so that so that was the argument that Harris made that doolittle was kind of the end of it. You know that they they didn't have. they can pick a winner anymore.

It even do it. It was the winner in ireland I lay there. He may do is that there is, it's nothing the reason they got nominated Goodnight an honest nomination, fries picture is just at the studio. Was this was corrupt enough, that you can create a block, a studio of us. to get ass coordination unit aside, roquat a course. Don't you once you the about the making of do little that year. Oh my god, isn't that unbelievable he has poitier, but he goes. I don't think that's what happened with me. He didn't remember the way mark as it in the book, but that's okay esteemed out on that island, with the bugs you're trying to get that thing done with drug rex harrison it's fucking crazy, drunk angry rex harris and his ex girlfriend it's it's. It really is like a restoration, comedy tour and, as end ended, disaster movie, simultaneous unbelievable. So with that with superfine shaft now what you say. What the argument you're making, which I think is great, is

the shift from the anti here. The reaction to the abbey anthea was was like visually and literally black confidence, not pollute send those characters? Yeah I mean it's a stupid. Even the case, a superfly ways an ant here? He plays it like a year. The aperture clanking our criticism for that tunnel good as yet for that, and this is thanks to going on matters in people J thing: were the these moves are criticised by people didn't see them. Do you understand that people asking for you know kinds of roles will be, but that, as so many actors have saved during that period. If we are making these movies normal visa bring may and ninety seven prove it You know suddenly there, no black weeping made me more because it is not making a black actual, but what I was going- it is at getting back John Kelly's point, you know anymore, o neil says in a movie we play for twenty weeks and in it. We ran out of black people and three way. Yes exactly right. So.

this was. You know a totally new world the point is to me: do that black boy station is in itself as a heading reductive com. in that area and and- and I don't have an issue with it as a term- you just said We invite people think like for you and some people feel they think it's all. These moves are parity, move right and they woman is over the top. They were over that's, ok, yeah, sure it was a james bond movie not over the top. Yeah for sure I mean is, is is, is a soup? mother. Will you know that up and they all moneymakers these also movies that everything in this item in the movie thereof, concerned and in the cities you know about. How do you deal with right with with being overrun by by angry landlords or drugs or or crime black on black crime, because the police, Gonna come help you and these movies are attempting.

answer those questions in these ways. That really are about a convent in traditional myth of he will stepping up event advantage. They had two innocent by sheer inadvertence yeah. I see now, jack's being released from that. That was like to me like ear the seizing of em and creating a new business model right. But the thing was really provocative and in great to know the connection you made, which I guess the case made was he was inspired by at sergio leone film, where it herr Henry fonda, plays a heavy for the first time in his career was at the which was at once, one of them the west. I remember this, then this of these building blocks that made this movie I go to and for the first time in ninety nine I never want to go to sunday care less, but I'm an invite to be on the jury saga. I'll. Do that drag shanghaied into dragoons into this dinner that this terrorism filming

leah and and the huge brothers are there with their film Can pimp always want to meet them if it turns out there from Detroit near we? Let talking- and I say what I really liked about dead president- is there use of a walk on by his isaac because I always thought albert you says with me: we say in use it. It was stolen from I want a dime, the west. I thought I'm not feeling for things like this. They have that kind of thing. visited upon you all. So not just me is other people and that's why I thought there had to be an audience for this as a book, because I felt we had too many connections like this. so you say that you can hear it in an isaac- exxon, oh my god like any other soundtrack. Oh my god. I got to ask, but the important thing about this taken so long that some people died in the eyes. A case that you want to do it, and I about this. When I met him because I got he said- and I wish we could, I'm saying this- I think we were eight, no shy the action about. It was either

like a layer is where he knew what he was doing, but rather, but also that feels that the baton being passed absolutely said. I had no more by going part of this kind of thing, sounds like a piece of movie music. I'm gonna get this do shaft- which then because of it, what kind of thing were that opening of shares is so revolutionary and one of things I was hoping I could do with this is the sort of let people know like what all these drugs are being bought, drop. One after this one for me- and you tell me, succeed in this. I want every five minutes of you before you go what we have for sure: yeah yeah will except the otherwise it's just there's just a history and also hinting that was the big turn was you know the the argument for these black leads at our arab as a reaction to the anti heroes you know in in terms of there, but then again but but we I distracted from the conversation about how

releasing the soundtrack first became publicity for the movie and the artist like mayfield earth, wind and fire and and and read the franklin into the others were already is, which artist. So it was kind of the new business model A business valid changes, the movies does, then we governor to setting a fever, but which is also released early right the size of the soundtrack on earlier. This is but that this is sort of interesting, because it's always been the issue and, and most of the dock is is is sort of. indicting it but again you're after you talk of after the arc of the seventies, and you are able to source Janeiro c, o tat death is at last, name did travolta character in so, I fever walking down the street tillman era. Twenty minero, you know walking down the street as being a direct sort of lift of richard in the first shaft movie that that they cooperatives that confidence.

these black. We too are working against the anti or an end appropriated it all of it the whole model from a for Saturday. I favour that without new information again to me. It's just that. Maybe this is like the Prado mona Megan, hughes, brothers and sundance, but yeah I've seen this movie in my friends and we kind of look as you either go. Isn't this shaft? You can't have your blackberry right. You have only been six years early I would think of business, aft right business, but the same key, but any takes these white. as you play disco, musical, worn, even disco music before that the whole thing is exactly the problem in a way, but yet you have the movie, that's it. I think that I, of course I do and then, in the point, try to make in the movies that, if your black purse Yes, no color right is hard to low pop culture. If it doesn't love you back, but this kind of history by president america's right an end but

Business model does become the way the world. Let me by the eightys the soundtrack the way the movie is sold out. That's part. Rise of mtv right disease, music, videos that song the sound for after that then are so I mean that bids from the movies That's what made you always doing these songs that becomes a way that movies are sold for a long time here and this all started in the seventies. Much like fisk as we ve gotten I've got to draw attention to this. It because it feels crazy to me that it hasn't been epic. I think it's because this this this this reduction of by culture and and why say in the film- was that a de facto underground economy and cultural movement, because it wasn't it was a successful. It just wasn't being covered there is an and then when it was being covers, like all these sort of pieces about black litigation and what that was in fact, my head up like a framed it there

improperly to me. You know to the poor Why didn't you know investigate more because I thought it was great love camp. You know that well. You know what I mean sure I read it and- and I think a lot of cruiser thought that these movies, probably felt not dissimilar to the ways that african americans and have been treated before wishes, they turn into a joke. So why go? But the opening of shaft? I just the thing at india, Memphis where willie hall lives, who the drummer in the bar case near so at tim during the sixteenth and shaft yeah, and as I do at felt always felt you guys are doing. A bit of peter gun, but also lubeck, nor would feel the ghost is exactly that. yeah. I said what I said Or do you can hear that the back be? You can hear the boy job. You can hear the snare whenever a footfall of its roundtree here is following absolutely sir Isaac gaze bought me a met renault and put him. Hotel rooms have fall asleep and night seem clicking you for quick track. Here is always a

by the time we get to the studio. I need to look up at a here the click and know exactly what happened. Isaacson, don't look at us just plague you if you found the click you're playing along to his footfalls, and this is if the things happening in Saturday night fever, in fact, I saw that Bg documentary early and went yeah. How do you not mention this usa this year? Because you had to, you're the guy. Thank you the anchor you for my documentary has, but I asked I really up against what kind of forever so nobody's going to see it look man, I mean it's a b. The guy that makes the connections and and sort of your presence re frames. I mean this is an issue I talked to gates about this too, that you, your literally with gates, is a doc manner and pbs about the the black business community is enough like you, sadly, you'll, be are: these are lessons that are actually being re, contextual,

and banned in schools and red states that if that is the key to its black history, that should be human history that we all should sort of understanding no and living in a time where, if you don't, if you're in the arts in you're, not fighting the good fight, then it's all lost whether it will conduct forever, not They were kind of forever doesn't exist without what you're talking about in your document, they should be showing it first theatre I speak louder now, but my hope is that, after prey we're tired of seeing what kind of for the nineteenth time that weekend cause it. Probably there is no growth is weakened. You come You turned afflicting oh does the fact that had a show and epochs and I'll go round two towns with the filmmakers, and I did one brian kugler here and I showed him the beginning of the learning tree, a lot of things we're talking about here, our sanctum. He goes. Oh, my. I didn't know any this year, but I also there's just so many moments in the dock, in a where you have your reaction is younger person to to

the case on the academy awards playing that song with those chains in realising that he's real, he's owning these things and and and fuck ewing them I mean the eyes of me, the mom don't mention it doc. I'm glad you brought us up sea ice o k. Wearing change not around his wrist but around his torso and did beat. that song for me. It just doesn't. Look. Oh my god what made you had look at the seat on national television, the fact the shaft success may that is the case in escaping my thought. This is the beginning of a new world and the year of superfly and lady sings, the blues and sounder, and you get- and I just thinking- oh my god, I will convey curse, may feel to John Williams. He did five scores. During that period. In addition, it doing fifteen other arms. We made twenty records the circuit of the soundtrack humane. Let's do it again: claudine sparkle and soup.

I almost, although songs the one one or another. In fact John Kennedy said to me the grating the superfly soundtrack- is that everything- It came off that was a hit, so the movie alive I will come at a month before I wasn't yet they just a sun with it there's give you love, there's freddy's dead there superfly of these things that the urban generated so many had singles yeah. It kept the movie alive here that it never happened before. So you may have the case of you and I make this point of no return the movie or beetles movie for those people were acts pop acts then translate into the entire culture and oftentimes in it will go to the movies and roll their eyes. The others think occurs. Mayfield is a composer in his songwriter. Were here right in character, you may, However, this thing happened to you too, and also many people who fruit is superfluous

sounds like you, ve, never seen the movie here, who imagine the movie yeah, based on the assumption that cover the album, discover the and but also the song, yeah sure that each song has a different tempo here, a different feel to it all about these states of mind. These characters are experienced in a deep fridays. or already you should know better each one of these songs has in a field as the sort of the the emotional weight of character, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, and that net not had not really been done before. I can't think of another person who compose a soundtrack, in that way out. Also this thing to were before start doing. Soundtracks is clearly charisma. feel heavy impact and influence on Marvin Gaye. Who turns into this. This social activists view on whether they re seeing in the song register that both the falsetto and false at a dense would example from Curtis may feel too. gave us going on then to superfly than Marvin Gaye do the trouble

I think you think, as Marvin really wasn't doing falsetto before that was- and that was his natural register, but very gordy told me was emasculate so and singing and that borrowing hearing at an who noticed for them But then, after these seventy new movies, you kind of point out what which were the later seventies at the other, was definitely mainstream movies, ladys in them whose mahogany coolly hi there The one you just mentioned with the with the vessel setting radios last sparkles darted ugly dream girl year, dream girls an end so that become sort along bingo traveller traveling, which our member the bell font day bill. Cosby move. which I remember very well, though. Those are the movies, the safe sidney poitier his career- and this is the most amazing thing yet, like I was saying- was trying to figure out where he was the uptown saturday night. That was the first one here about sidney. Poitier went from the biggest thing in the world and nineteen sixty two because of the way cultures shifted,

being irrelevant by nineteen seventy in two years to have that no kin that that country, firstly, the all the roughly twenty get where you why they have this always fall. Apart, the course of two years and then to reinvent himself and started? comedy and to make himself this, not not the comedian. The straight man and to make fun of what with us, any party was in these movies and to become a movie star again. Based on that, I cannot think of any other case in the history, the movies or somebody as a kind of foresight and understanding of audience and of of self One is to rescue himself from obscurity now I was already at a majority, yet no he found no. No he had, but, but I'm saying like deniro, did it a little bit, Was it, but there was always getting oh yeah. He was during the lewis. Didn't have scared. Nobody called the newer sell out in a joke. That's right, but he did end up doing some. Pretty goofy

He was kind of great leaves with this clear on what he wasn't, the architect. That's right, etheric watch a golden and again when I met and out of necessity, I measured well, you know We see the usa, we need doing loser the field out on this. I see, because if you just didn't do it is not going to get made. How do you further the cause of black actors? I mean because again it's it's. It's a tricky position, then, what's in belfast in uptown Saturday night to put the heavy right, Small basely doings parity of engagement arising studied, but remember that in those movies, but that they reflect the full of these great little performances with so many people. I wish I had a chance to get in this move because they passed away, does not condemn Wasco lee brown yeah. I remember him who's in uptown voice. He had this great voice. We had this thing where, just before the the thing we have that that the scenes in the movie he's this, this elected official he's trying to figure out which fake posts as you want,

a man of the people and whereas dashiki leanna be upright and wear a suit and tie right as he's got all these these these these, these, these portraits he flips around with his office and just think him shift for one thing to another, but he's also in isn't uptight playing this game character or partially unapologetically gay character. We roscoe worked a ton. I wished that he, long enough for me to talk to him for this there's I mean I knew rudy ray moore and I wish I'd been able to get him. I mean my first brush with fame in ninety, Seventy five, a friend of mine, I walk you downtown detroit transfer over to do to get out of the heat who see the little guy walk past us wearing a leather hat a leather jacket, the out of the matching bag and choose, and in detroit nineteen seventy five. Nobody would just like this. I just thought This comes to be an actor. I know how I thought this is. I got we are you d, urville, martin egos. you guys know who I have we go yeah. He goes you wanna come see. My movie, we go. Ok that this be

What resources in the back for penalties, when I heard from again he walks around acquaintances, movie theater, where dolomite is playing she has directed. You walked past. The ticketed it taken it's ok, these guys would mean the guys to gain by and who are you he walked and are ok guys enjoy, and that's how I a dolan wow, and we sat through it four times and basically sat there until they kicked us out of them were reciting the dialogue along with the activity, and then I got to meet rudy re more because I was there, you should not know you but yeah Whatever else dolomite is about, he understood as its as reform. rudy? You re, make an entrance fee and somebody these movies or about entrances huh, the thing that movies american we do better than anybody is people making an interesting what Marlena Dietrich or all these these glow. entrances. Aha, Billy Williams gets one lady sings blows, So many because their reminders of glory

and the power one. You see something different from our own lives yeah and that's what a lot of these black movies there too. They offer glamour and heroism when that was no longer in fashion. In fact, I think they brought their stuff back into fashion and then was swept off to the margins because that's always happens in black holes Well yeah and you use of that you kind of blame the with a little bit I don't blame the wiz, but I think the wiz was blamed yeah. I think the you know I see so they they said this tank were done with black people cause the point of making a movie is that it may be. It got bad reviews, but soda coffee. A lot of these movies got bad reviews. I buy the ways they make money. That's the thing that the wiz really didn't make that year, the wiz and held executive me once the wizards, like the black version of Heaven's gate and yet lost a ton of money in there rotations about it yeah, but you know sure they're go to register overcoat and dog day afternoon. Be I dunno how that happened? What's the backstory on that? You don't know why that gig, because the guy who was supposed to a john batum was apparently fired after Sarah

I feel that so you do us a favour one. To make the move in. He thought, I can do this year after he was wrong for either. I can do this and probably thought I want to do something different, but John batum, who was supposed to do it as that object. So I think the scrape I think diner os is too old and they went and then he was done and sidney lumet thought I can make this work is janet, but he was too young. Probably then she's way too. and when you stephanie males who abandoned the show on broadway true, but they want to do with a star. It is a mistake, where's. The cartoon hems a lot, but when a black movie fails is the end of all black movies and also all black movies are the same. Yeah right movies are a genre of the black comedy. Is a black movie. There's a black western is a black movie. Is a black romantic melodrama, it's a blur we will have failed and not a western failing is black movies. Fail here is not a romantic comedy. Failing is blocked,

movies failing and by the way when these movies fail in the mainstream. They eventually bounced back we're here at the end of the romantic comedy until the george clooney Julia roberts movie is a success or suddenly there back. but I like how you sort of set up that after that, the ways at union, then he stood, assert a focus on the new kind of blackened and in cinema you start talking about your charles barnett and in whose a genius of god poet, you allow me, I remember seeing that movie wonder to come out it'd, be a wiki on seventy eight, but it wasn't. It didn't get a real release until the late eighties yeah cause. I saw it and I didn't know what it was and I remember where I was maybe I was still colleges are possible, like middleweight eighties, and I we're going to see it because it worked interesting and it was you know it's a unforgettable movie and I had no idea how to contextualize it other than just watching. It is a movie by guiding no I was barnett. Was bag became fastened? with him, but I didn't know where to find any of the other stuff in it's sort of an interesting

great writers not a lot? There is a great story to his short films. I mean no he's not. He did have to sleep with anger, to sweep with anger that dashiell that fucking that movie's great this danny glover movie, that's fucking that movie's insane do isn't it yes and But don't you know the story he tells about showing his movie at usc allay and always flower children find themselves in smoking. Juggler. Yours Those are my neighbor had loved and because he makes his movie about black life were the father is there and it's a movie about love. I mean you ve, seen That man, looking at his daughter and his son and his wife, and going out and basically crushing his soul, to make yeah, but being that neighbourhood and being a part of something that is. You can make me that movie today, because people would know how to do it, but the kind of deafness and poetic touches at the beautiful.

and again more still being limited into the twenty four. That's right, you're able to track all the info, etc. We only got you could that I could get a whole movie on latvia above people who stole over man, but you know I felt was gonna get to go from that to them. Martin score says a their shudder island. The direct left, but that was the omeish. I mean you framed like as he's he's still not as completely on one scorsese who would know that, but you know it's and that's the only clip by air from the twenty first century, because I could have done the same thing with american gangster me ass list stuff from war, those women that, cutting only all that stuff. Yet the cutting up the coping I dont care, to stand like one thing, that's like sticking in my cry out: they will they it's weird because you know sidney and harry make that western yeah. as a reaction to butch in sundance right like I dont under Ike,

the western thing, the ongoing sportive of session with it and need to regenerated for every generation over and over again to western lesser success. I dont understand it. I dont stan why there is a need to own that fuckin genre things the one thing it feels really intrinsically american, because you know a common use, the that sort of states play aspect was lifted from european art. The western feel like something that belongs to this country air and is also about this aspect the still the wide open spaces yeah there's romance about it, that people love and I'm not so in love with it either. I was as he fonder the south that sort of like flipped over his head

like once upon a time in the west and those kinds of yang's. Now I get that, but as we get to that, you are if you grew up a certain way, if a certain generation, the western meant something to you and to not see yourself in a mean, fishburne talked about going with his father yeah and the two westerns I chose that clip were the searchers in nevada smith, because their mouth about race, yeah, and also the Heaven be framed in the door. I thought that was fond of making this as I get it. I do be really deliver. Above all the clip choices that was the fun of it. The other shocked me about what was that at the moment in in the searchers, where John wayne's going to kill the girl, because she's now you know with them this fuckin devastating moment, but I don't have the whole movie, so I gotta just have the doorway. I get you, and also in nevada smith iii, supposed to be part native american, but he's also a friend losing his life, losing everything I dunno that doorway famous thought of going to. If I'm going to deal with a western, I'm gonna deal the western that deals with race

What what I mean? Look I mean like even this conversation I mean there's so much more in the dock and it was a you know like again. I I had to watch it twice. It wasn't like you really did. I did testify that man. It means a lot to me. It doesn't sound like I did. It may sound like a baby. I was down here for you. You could get that from a single viewing, but I'm clearly at present. We know each other for a long day. I hear, and we know We have this kind of conversation, other war, and now, I'm sure, ok, that's all we know is yellow now serve. The conversation by air is. Is this has been really but just because I could imagine you will pay this kind of attention to something that did is shocking to me. Well, I I think it's great and I and I hope it. I hope it gets seen a lot and it was great talking to you always thank you so much more There was Elvis mitchell, eight fellow broadcaster, now filmmaker and the movie is is called. Is that black enough

were you at streaming on networks, and it's it's great. So, hang out a second ok if you want to check out an episode from the archives this week? It was six years ago that I went. new jersey to interview bruce Springsteen, its episode? Seven, seventy three and its available all podcast feeds for free. It's definitely great episode. If your bruce van and a great episode, if your fan of his show, because it's a full fledged deputy, have interview, we get into breathing, including what he was thinking at the time about trump selection and alive.

What he said actually could be said word for word today and what's your biggest fear of it as we enter it, I suppose would be that a lot of the worst things and the worst aspects of what he appealed to comes to fruition. You know when you let that genie out of the bottle bigotry, Racism, when you let those things out of the bottom dollar, the intolerance that they don't go back in the bottle that easily if they go back in at all right, you know whether it's a rise in hate crimes, people feeling they have license to speak and behave in ways that previously were considered an american and are un american, a vast. What he's appealing to

and so my fears or that those things find a place in ordinary civil society. Two means the discussions and events of the day and the countryside inches in a way that is unrecognizable and we become estranged. As you say, you say, hey wait, a minute vote for trump. I I thought I knew who you were. You know, I'm not sure you know the country feels very strange. You feel various. From your countrymen. Yeah yeah go ways in adopting the same feed. Your listening to this episode in, if you want all the durability of episodes ad free sign up for w tia plus by owing to the link in the episode description or go to w e F, pod, dot com and click on w tee, a plus on Monday show we ve got my talk with comedian, tommy turnin, that I recorded in ireland Tom you and I have been sort of orbit

in each other at festivals. For for decades, it seems you know, and I've watched him do stand up a few times and I sort of got up to speed with him because he is a huge, a comedian in ireland and the uk he's been here in the states a few times and it was like I really I sometimes I really like beer, knowing somebody and knowing their work a bit but then sort of having to sit there and really I then to two to yahoo they are in, and and more of their work. I didn't really I am sad now because we really talk about the dairy girls. You know, which is a show that he's in and it's a huge show an kit has been watching it and loves you

and I you know- I I think that was sort of a blindside of that interview, but it was great to talk to him. Now this is usually where I give you my upcoming tour dates, but I don't have any more after tonight, I'm done, but between us and I'm sure I'll be at the comedy store, probably overtime.

Here's some guitar from the vault.